Blind Spots Every Family Overlooks When Loving an Addict

Hey guys, today we're going to talk about an interesting topic. We yesterday at lunch, we Amber brought up a topic, and for those of you who don't know this weird thing about Amber, she loves true crime TV courtroom things. Like she literally is trying to to find a courtroom she can go to for the summer for a court case. So anyway, she's always regaling us with the latest things she saw, and this one was really interesting to all of us because it. pertains to what we do for a living. And I'm not going to tell the whole story because I don't really know it, but there's a couple— he was— he had a history of leaving children in the car while he ran errands in and out real quickly in stores. And he also had a history of drinking and driving. And long story short is at the end of the thing, he, he was driving around with their 2-year-old and drinking and got back home and Left the child in the car, and she died. And the the whole interesting part about the story was the complicity of the wife, and that made us start thinking about like our clients, you guys, and and where where the dangers are in addiction for the family as far as being complicit, being a comp. I think this woman's going to be charged as an accomplice. And so we started really having this pretty good conversation, and Kim and I thought this is something we should talk about. We see people doing all kinds of crazy things, and I'm the first person to say, hey, if you think your kid is drinking or doing drugs, do not allow them to drive a car, especially if it's in your name, because if something horrible were to happen, that then you might lose everything. And we've seen it happen before where families lose millions and millions of dollars because their, their child hit the wrong person and hurt somebody's child, or it just— they, they got sued. So that's a pretty common thing that we do. We also tell our clients, Kim particularly, but don't let your husband or wife drive with the children in the car if you know he has a history of drinking and driving, or if you know he's currently doing that. So those are the 2 things that we see a lot of, but, but I wanted to talk a little bit today, or Kim and I want to talk a little bit today about some other things that we might see as well as what to do. To keep yourself as safe as possible. So, Kim, what other things do— besides the 2 things that I just talked about, what other things do we hear about that are dangerous or put off warning bells where we say, hey, we need to get involved with this?

All right. The things that I hear a lot, because I work a lot of times with the non-drinking spouse, and so a lot of thinking about liability is The neglect sometimes that people don't realize that they can accidentally be charged with or even have to prove that there's not neglect. And so this might look like my partner's been sober for a decent period of time, but there's a history of him being home and him or her being home with the kids, and the kids aren't supervised because they're passed out on the couch or because they're preoccupied with a project somewhere else. And you know, there are multiple cases I've had where neighbors have. brought young children home, and then the non-drinking partner finds out later, you know, because the drinking partner— this isn't something that typically the drinking partner will disclose to the non-drinking partner because it's, you know, it's obvious, for obvious reasons. So in a lot of ways, a lot of the liability that I hear, you know, is this neglect for a child? Is the child dangerous or in a dangerous situation? But the part that I talk a lot about with parents specifically is that you're going to have to answer to your child later on. So if there is an older sibling, or even if the child is old enough to remember wandering off, or a child was lost for a period of time, then for parents, they have to answer to these kids as they get older. And oftentimes for parents, they want to protect their kids, and so they do not necessarily tell them the truth. And so then we have got 2 problems for the child. This thing happened to them, and then I have a parent that does not really, did not really tell me what happened. So even if it is not necessarily a legal liability, it is definitely a relationship liability. I see that a lot, and my heart goes out to the non-using spouse because a lot of times you don't know when this is going to happen, and it puts you in a terrible position of protecting the kids, figuring out what to do with the marriage, not being the bad guy. So it's just, it's a hard, hard spot.

I agree with that. I also had a client several years ago where the child lived, but pretty much drowned, and luckily the mom came home and the was able to get him out of the pool and they revived him. But then the siblings were also, had been witness to this scene and knew that the dad was drunk and passed out in the den. And so then now we have not only the issue you just talked about, but siblings who know the truth and they don't feel safe. So now we have an insecure attachment potential thing. It just becomes, and then of course the non-drinking spouse becomes incredibly like PTSD about it, and then now their life is managed by that because they're afraid to leave. And if they leave, they're super nervous, or they take the children to inappropriate places because they don't want to leave them at home. And and they often don't even want to like tell a babysitter that this is going on. So yeah, I think I think it's more than a liability issue, but I definitely do want to talk about the liability factor in that. And and we're not lawyers, nor do we play one on TV, but. But we do. I always advise my clients, like know the laws in your state, know the laws in your country, know know what you can and what you cannot do. Like some some states, if you pay for the the car insurance, then I think you still have some liability whether your name is on the car or not. Some states that's not true. So know know the details, and then you make the decision that you want to make and that you can. Make and hold based upon the information that you have at hand. The worst thing would be to assume you're fine and then have this thing be happening and it's not fine. Another thing that I've seen, and I'm going to see what you think about this, Kim, but there, if you have a history of going to treatment, like you've been to 30-day treatment or you've been to an IOP or something, there's a, there's a history your insurance is aware of, then that also becomes a problem because then that can be, if you Do get sued by the by somebody, they they will have access to that information, and that's really going to hose the family because you let this person do blank even though they have a history of blanking. And so I think I certainly don't want to say you know anyone who's been to treatment is can never be a good driver and and will always be in trouble. Like you know I'm sure my boys who have a history of treatment if they got in a car accident. Nobody would pull that up because they wouldn't be drunk where they wouldn't be high when they were driving. So I'm not saying you're screwed if you've been to treatment. I'm just saying it would put it, bring it back into question if there's substances involved again in this, in this current accident. Any, any thoughts on that?

I think that's a good point. And I think it, again, it's kind of a double-edged sword because we don't want to dissuade people from going to treatment. But we also have to recognize that if this is part of your past, then that does put you at a higher risk for something that someone could legally come at you with. So I do think it's important, just again, going into this with a wise mind to be able to say, if this is part of your past, then drinking and driving, or even being aware of it and not being able to prove that you've tried to dissuade, it just puts you— it puts you at a higher risk. Kind of like if I've broken my elbow, That elbow is always going to be a little bit more sensitive. And so, as long as this is still relevant in someone's history, you are just a little bit more vulnerable there. And Campbell, can you talk a little bit about how families can kind of protect themselves? And again, we are not attorneys or any of that, but just kind of some ways. I do not want people listening to this to think that they are completely powerless. You know, what are some ways that people can insulate themselves?

I think one way, which is really sort of Sidestepping that issue for just a nanosecond is I tell spouses a lot, if the— if their spouse is drinking or doing— like I say, talk to your financial people and see what assets you can protect that you can move or separate so that if, if this person does actually have an accident and gets sued, hurt someone, hurt himself, whatever, that you have some money that is not going to be commingled that could be taken away from you. So So I think that's, and again, I, I would be a lawyer way before I'd be a financial advisor. But, um, I have had people say they have had success in that, that they have been able to put things in special funds or accounts or different, different funds that protect them. So I do say that, but also just, just know, well, 2 things, know legally what the situation is, but I think Maybe even bigger than that is no morally, ethically within you. Like I'm a big believer of can you put your head on your pillow at night peacefully? And can you? And that's one of the things that govern us when we hear something is if I heard about this from an that another counselor didn't report this or didn't advise a certain way, I would be I would be shaking my head that that that counselor should have done it. So that's one of the ways that. The 3 of us make calls as to whether we're going to report something or get involved is if something horrible were to happen, would we be peaceful about it? And if the answer is no, then you absolutely get involved. So I think it's the same thing for parents. And, and this is bigger and beyond this topic, but, you know, if you know your, if you know your son's best friend is taking a bunch of pain pills, do you tell his mom? And and my would be yeah. I would say I hate to tell you this, but this is what I've heard because I don't want to be able to the one that if he overdosed or something, be like man, I knew that and I didn't do anything about it. So I think it ties into that is if something were to happen to your children or your your nieces or nephews or your neighbor whoever this is, how would you feel about that if you had just said well he only had the two beers and I think he was pretty safe and he said he wouldn't drink anymore and he said he wasn't even going to buy anymore but he did come home. And he had a 12-pack, and really there were only 9 left in the box. So gosh, he probably had 5. And if you're starting to do this justification math in your head, to me that's a red flag. To me, the answer is I know he's not had anything to drink, and he's taking the children 5 minutes away. I have a client in in in a different part of the world, and they are in the struggle bus right now because they're very very busy, and they need their spouse to be able to drive. And they just, they can't rely on them anymore. And it's really become like a major problem for my client, but it's the right thing to do. Any more thoughts on that, Kim, as far as what they can do to protect themselves?

And again, you know, full disclosure, we're not attorneys or financial people. We're just counselors. Um, but I would, I think an umbrella policy is really good if you think that you're in a position where you're like, hey, this could happen. I think making sure that you're aware of who's on your car insurance policy. The, you know, where's the car titled? Whose name is it in? For a lot of people, it's hard to give up the control of, you know, my name's on the car, or it's my car, or— but they're driving it. So to kind of sign it over to this other person, for a lot of people, that's a pretty big financial hit that they don't want to do. But you kind of have to weigh the liability loss. If there's a wrong, you know, wrong death suit coming your way, people can really come after a lot of your financials. you know, assets in that situation. So I think really looking at your insurance policies, who the car is titled to, umbrella policies, what assets can be protected. Because again, if we're dealing with a lot of cases that we deal with, is there's high earners, professional people. And so we have a non-drinking partner and we have a lot of assets in both of their names. And so if something happens legally, both of their financials are now In jeopardy. So, to be able to say, is there anything like very much like Campbell said, is there anything I can do to kind of pull something out of that nest egg to protect myself? So, those are, I think, some pretty simple, easy, to be redundant, things that you can do. And again, checking with your state and your attorney and all of those things.

I think you made a really good point because I think even this ties into the sort of the Before you love somebody who's an addict, you tend to think addicts are not from good families, or they're just kind of yucky people that went down the wrong path. And I think that the same thing happens with this. Like because my husband's a doctor, because my wife is an attorney, she wouldn't do that. There's a lot of times that people work. I have a lot of this where the The drinking partner works out of town, and so they're on an airplane going back and forth. And we know what happens at airports: there's billions of bars, billions of lounges, complimentary cocktails. And so, even if the person is really trying not to drink, it's really, really hard for them to not drink when plopped on an airplane. They're in first class, and they're like, "What can I get you to drink?" And so. I think that's a big risk too for people is you know what happens when they're traveling, and so I think my point in this is just because people have really big wonderful jobs doesn't mean that they won't drink while traveling because obviously they're driving home from the airport. They're not they're not flying the plane, but they're driving home from the airport, and often they are putting some sometimes I just heard of a family where. He was driving home from the airport. The mom was leaving on a trip, and so there was a crossover with the babysitter was just going to depart when the dad got home. And then the babysitter realized the dad was just hammered, and so the babysitter luckily did not leave because it was an older babysitter, very loyal to the family, and she just was like, "I'm not, I'm not doing this." But you know, if it had been a 15-year-old who'd been like, "Bye, Mr. Jones," it could have gone really south too. So. I think, I just think the travel thing is a problem and think something to be watched for. What are some other things that people don't think about, Kim, that where we get into these situations of not being safe?

I think if we move away from the liability, like the legal liability, I think the, I guess, making excuses that later don't track again. And a lot of, a lot of where I'm coming from is a young child that grows You know, that as they grow. And so we've got, you know, parents that have a very, very, you know, love is in their heart. The intentions are exactly where they need to be, and they're in a bad situation. But that liability, definitely, then it's like, hey, I can't trust this parent because they're not telling me the truth. And I can't trust this parent because they're suffering from addiction. And maybe the rest of the family is all kind of not telling the truth either. So this child ends up feeling very anxious and very alone. So there's liability in that. We end up— you mentioned an insecure attachment. So as these hypothetical children, what I'm talking about, as they grow, behavior is communication, especially with kids, with all of us, but especially with kids because they don't have the cognitive development that adults have and they don't have the vocabulary. And so you'll see a lot of this in their behavior. And the liability there is sometimes there's not an adult that's able to see what that behavior is really saying. And so this becomes a piled-on effect pretty quickly. Another liability that sometimes we don't see is just the isolation that addiction can bring to a family and the pressure that gets put on the non-using spouse because they're stuck in this position that I have to be mom, dad, counselor, paramedic, driver, and it's just too much for one person. And so there's a ton of liability that gets put on that partner. And then I don't need to describe to you guys how this totally makes the family out of balance. Those are the, I think, the ones that kind of stick out in my mind. We've hit the legal, the emotional, the family, the personal, the one, you know, and even the one that's struggling with addiction. There's a ton of, you know, we all know about the shame that goes there, which, you know, that could be a whole different conversation of how that shame leads to other, you know, opens you up for other liability because we have acting out of shame, making impulsive decisions, and all of those things that go hand in hand with it.

Another thing I just thought of while you were saying that is if the child is old enough, another thing you can do to protect yourself is the child is old enough to discern if mom or dad or whoever it is, person we're talking about, seems impaired, then the child should be empowered to not get in the car. I had a 12-year-old client that I saw. Her father was using a substantial amount of drugs and the mom was in pretty serious denial that it was going on. While he was picking her up from school, and little girl was just completely losing her crackers on. I don't want to ride in the car with him. I don't want to ride in the car. And the mom's like, oh, it's it's fine. And so she was my client. So I told her, I said, listen, if you don't feel that he's he if you feel your dad is high or impaired, don't get in the car with them and just say, Dad, I'm sorry. I'm not comfortable with you driving, and I'm gonna wait here till mom comes, or I'm gonna call my my aunt, or you know. I said, have some backup drivers in your phone that you can call, and you're. old enough to be able to say, no, Dad, this isn't safe. And without worrying about if it was going to hurt Dad's feelings or if it was going to make Dad mad, because the answers to both of those were in this case, it will. But she had to become empowered to say that. And I tell clients that if your children are old enough, first of all, even like lots of people think their kids aren't aware that there's a problem. Kids usually are aware, even if they can't name it. They know there's something because there's fighting going on. There's tension in the home. There's whispering. There's unreliability. There's all the same things that we all see. So kids do know. So, you know, even if your child is 10 and they don't particularly know that dad drinks and drives or can has a pattern of doing that, you could say, if you don't feel safe, if you think something's off, if you think something weird, don't get in the car. But I think from 10 on, I think you should name it. I, for the child's safety, so they know what's going on. So they know what the whispering is going, you know, you don't say dad's a blazing alcoholic, but you should say. You know, we're struggling with some alcohol, and that's what we're trying to figure out. Dad and I are trying to work this out, but do not get in the car with him if you think he's driving drinking. If you see he's drinking, ask him to pull over. Like empower your children, like as much as you can according to the age. And I know that feels not great, but at the end of the day, it if something bad were to happen, you would. not care how great it felt to say that. You would care very much that you had protected your child. All right, anything else on that, Kim?

No, but I do think you described a really good hypothetical situation of the liability where in that situation— or I guess it wasn't hypothetical— but the mom, she, she could be held liable if that— if there was an accident. The school could be held liable if that father picked up that child. Um, so you hear on that where we've got 2 levels of authorities that are supposed to be protecting children that weren't. And so both of those people could be held liable, again, depending on the situation and the state.

The other thing that just popped in my head while you're saying that— and if you guys have questions, pop them up there, we'll, we'll answer them— but is that the school, a call could be made to report this even, even if everybody's safe. And then you get DSS or Child Protective Services or whatever it's called in your state or your country, they're involved, and you could You could lose your child. Like, no one's hurt and there's no money being lost or there's nothing going on, but but you but you could lose. You could be sucked into that case, which you do not want to get sucked into. Sherry, I see your question. Amber is on every other Thursday. Kim and I are on the other Thursday, so we're we're helping Amber out and taking our share of this so that she doesn't have to do it every Thursday. I think she's actually on a field trip today. Um, all right, any other questions? Kristen, I've heard of people being charged with child abuse when they receive a DUI. Wow, wow. Yeah, that's bad. I mean, it makes sense, but that's bad. I wonder what would happen in that case. Like, I don't think you get out of that DUI as easily.

I would imagine if there's a child in the car, it also could be, you know, child endangerment. And so I don't— it makes me wonder if that— I mean, I would assume the child would have to be in the car, or there would be some— somehow a child would be involved in that.

Yeah, maybe it's a car seat. I don't know. But yeah, that's too bad. Um, all right, any other questions? About anything. I mean, you know, related to what we know. Okay, so Aisha is saying, I guess you're talking about your husband's at rehab and now wants to come back within a month saying he has a job, but in reality he lost his job. How would you not let him in the house without a divorce? That's a complicated question, but there are a couple ways you could do it. One, you could just Talk to him while he's in rehab and work through the counseling if you can, that you're not comfortable with him coming straight home and that you would prefer him to go to sober living for 3 months or whatever it is you're looking for. Um, I think that that's sort of though, like legally, I don't think you can keep your spouse out of your house. So something that I would be working on while they're there to see if we can get their buy-in to go somewhere first. Um, Or even to be willing to live in his own apartment somewhere so that you can see that the sobriety is going to stick. And 3 months down the road, you would feel more comfortable with him coming back in the house. The other thing was, if he doesn't want to do any of those things and he's coming home, is you could pull yourself out and go stay in an apartment or with a friend or whatever for the amount of time that it's going to take for your heart to feel that there's sustainable change and it is— you feel safe, or for you to realize that he's not going to stay sober, and then you decide what you want to do with that. But Those are the only things I can think of. If you're married, um, you have a lot more leeway if it's a kid, but with you're married, I think those are the only things I can think of. All right. My son is in a 28-day rehab, inpatient rehab, thinks about, and also thinking about when and if he comes back to our house, what parameters will we put around using the car, which is in my name, but he has been using it regularly for going to appointments. Et cetera. Well, you guys know what I'm gonna say is I wouldn't let him come home after 28 days. 28 days is wonderful. It is a fabulous jumpstart to recovery, but it is not sufficient in and of itself. So I would be having the same conversation I almost recommended a minute ago. Daisha is— I would say, you know, we'd— coming home is not an option, but we will be happy to pay for sober living. Or work something out along those lines. These are conversations that, in my opinion, are often missed and dropped. We think when we drop our loved one off at treatment that they'll be home in 28 days and this will all be behind us. And been there, done that. And that is not the case. So I would, I would be building an aftercare program for him that's out of your home so that you don't have to have a front row seat to it. If you can't, then I might say that you just don't feel comfortable with him driving the car until you see sustainable change. So maybe another 30 days after he's been home and you can give him an Uber account or you could drive him. But if that car's in your name and he goes back to whatever took him to treatment and does exactly what Kim and I are talking about today, you will, you could be very, very sorry financially. So again, these are boundaries, you guys, and you have to have, know your relationship with boundaries. Which is the whole course that Kim and I are working on for later in July, is oftentimes what we what we are told to do by professionals is like just you can't do it. And so you have to know what boundaries you can set down around your car, around your money, around all those things, around your home. But this in this case, I would see if we could get him to sober living just for the best shot at long-term sobriety. Stephanie, how can I continue to support my mom's mom staying sober? She just got a shot to help her not drink. This is new for our family. So the shot she's talking about, I guess, would be Vivitrol, which is a shot you get once a month to help. It's like the shot form of naltrexone, which helps with cravings for alcohol and opiates. I think the best way for you to remain supportive, to be supportive of someone in recovery, especially your mom, is to stay connected to her, to see her as a whole person, to see her as your mom, not just someone who has been drinking. And if she wants to talk about that, fine, talk about it. But, you know, we talk a lot, Kim and I talk a lot about with addiction, they lose a lot of their humanity and that shame is the message of I am bad or I'm not a good person. So one of the things we like to do is to remind our clients You're fabulous. Or you— Amber calls it strength-based, I call it fabulosity. Kim, I'm sure, has some other fabulous word. But it's to remind her, like, that she's super funny, or she was a really good cook, or she was a good mom. Be, be there for her as the— as your mom, as the person. Obviously, don't drink around her. If she wants to talk about drinking, talk about it. If she wants to talk about what she's learning in a meeting, or what she's talking about in counseling, or what she learned wherever she's going, whatever she's doing, Those conversations about gratitude and integrity and humility, those are great conversations. I'll have them all day long with absolutely anybody in the world. So it doesn't have to be somebody who's trying not to drink. So if you're going to have those conversations, have them with no agenda and with curiosity and with yourself in mind in those conversations. I always, if you're going to have a question about integrity, you need to be looking inside and saying, Before I start talking about integrity, am I living with integrity? Before I start talking about humility, am I living with humility? I don't talk about humility very much for that very reason. Kim, do you think— what else can you think about supporting your mom?

Sorry, my unmute gets lost. I think you nailed it. I mean, I think connection is the number one thing. So there's nothing I can add that you that you didn't touch on.

All right, Mary. I am on Al-Anon, and some people refer to a dry drunk after quitting alcohol. What does that mean? Really good question. We think that a dry drunk is someone who's not drinking, but they're having no spiritual shift toward themselves or the world, and so. They're not working on those things I just talked about— humility, willingness, integrity, self-awareness. They're just not drinking. So they tend to be angry, resentful, moody, snarky, um, because they're not happy. They just— they, they think a lot about, I wish I were drinking, or I'm only not drinking because you won't let me, or I'm only not because my boss is on my fanny, whatever that is. I had a client— Amber and I had clients years ago, like 15 years ago. And the guy with the alcoholic was the dad, and he was Amber's client. And we were going to have a joint session, but we started out separately. And I said to the wife, would you think he can get sober? She said, absolutely. He didn't drink for 5 years after our second child was born. I was like, really? Well, that's good. Well, then wonderful news. So then they come in and he's like, I just don't know if I can do this. Like, this is going to be really hard. And I said, dude, you've done it before. And she said, he was wonderful. And she said, What are you talking about? And she says, you know, right after blank was born and you didn't drink for five years. And he said he looked around the room and cursed, and then he says, worst five years of my life. That's a dry drunk. That's a dry drunk. So we talk about that like recovery is not not drinking. Recovery is the spiritual shift in whatever way that is. Toward yourself, toward the world. It doesn't mean— it doesn't mean religious necessarily. It doesn't mean AA. It's whatever your spiritual journey is going to be towards yourself. It could be reading, it could be thinking, it could be a men's group, it could be a women's group, it could be anything. But that's— that's the recovery. That's really getting the skills and the emotions in check that will keep you sober with a happy heart. All right. Aisha, how long is a good time for cocaine addiction? There's never a good time for a cocaine addiction. Personally, I've seen 30 days is not enough for recovery. Oh, you see how many days for cocaine addiction is just like any other addiction. 30-day treatment is, like I said earlier, a wonderful beginning. To me, all addiction needs to be dealt with as a pretty full-time job for a minimum of 6 months and a part-time job for the next year or so. Those, those neuroreceptors take a year for about 90% of the extra ones to go to sleep, 2 years for 100% of them. So as long as those neuroreceptors are in there clamoring, begging, wanting to be filled, they're going to, they're going to come in their thoughts to rationalize, rationalize and justify going back to them. So to me, you got to keep your eye on whatever your, whatever your program is, whatever that spiritual journey is, you got to keep your eye on that. pretty tight for at least 6 months, which is why I recommend good quality long-term sober living, which is all gonna start at a minimum of 6 months. After all the mess he puts us through, I don't have any empathy for him, but you guys say support. I get it, Aisha. I totally get it. I, I have empathy for anyone who has an addiction because it's a brain disease and no one sets out to become an addict, you guys. No one sets out and says, I think I'm gonna really become an alcoholic. Were drug addicts. So, you know, it happens. Their brain, their pleasure pathway gets hijacked. They have all these extra neuroreceptors, then they're addicted to it. You can, you can be sick and tired of being sick and tired of it, 100%, but I would still try to have some empathy for them. That doesn't mean you have to stay married to them or date them, or you don't have to do any of that, but you can still have empathy for them. So that's the way I would support it, is like say At least I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, but I no longer want to be married to you, or you can't live here, or whatever the thing is. You can have boundaries with empathy. Kim, do you have anything else on that?

Yeah. On that one specifically, it's how do, how do I, and we all get compassion fatigue and it's, you know, when, when we're in the ring with someone and their chaotic decisions are directly crashing into us, it's, it's It's natural that at some point we can lose our empathy. And so I do think, like what Campbell said, turning to that logic to be able to say logically, I know this person's brain is not operating the way that my brain is operating or the way that their brain used to operate, and I'm still just can't muster up kindness. And, and that's okay because I think that, again, when we talk about just their bad decisions are crashing into our life consistently. But I think in those moments, what we need to do is we need to give ourselves That's a huge break. And at that moment when that's happening, and if, you know, we're face to face with addiction long enough in our homes, we, we have days, we have moments, we might even have months like that. But to be able to say what's happening inside of us is our compassion is tired, we are tired, we're not feeding ourselves. It probably means we need to take 10 steps backwards from this situation. We probably need to reassess our boundaries. We probably need to reassess where we're spending our time, who's feeding into us. And really, so when we feel that empathetic fatigue, that to me is like warning bells are going off inside your soul that says, hey, you need to take better care of yourself. And let's go ahead and start boundaries, personal care, people feeding into me, life satisfaction away from the addict. And at some point, once these things are hit, you're going to notice that your empathy starts to go back up.

Kim and I talk all the time about Kim calls it chasing your peace. I say going towards yourself. These are like what Kim just described. Those are really good examples of that. And even if you do still have empathy, those things are really important to focus on is because we dance around the maypole of addiction as the loved ones for so long, and then we just get done. But if we would do more consistently, working out, having lunch with friends, even though we don't necessarily want to do these things, they are still good for us and they do Stave off that compassion fatigue that Kim was describing, because we just have a fuller battery. It's so easy to get an empty battery on this stuff. And by that, I mean, just depleted of joy, energy, desire. I mean, we do, we tend to mimic the behavior of the addict, which is behind them. So we isolate, whether it's our own shame, whether it's our own sorrow, whether it's grief. We we are unreliable because we're going to be people ask us to come over and then we're just not in the mood and we just don't go. So we emulate these things, and one of the things that we do that when we emulate is that we isolate ourselves from ourselves and from other people. And even if you can't muster up the fact that I cannot isolate from other people because I just can't be around them, don't isolate from yourself. And what I mean by that is. Read, eat, take walks, listen to music, watch TV, spend time with the people who know that you can just talk about anything else about them, then they know better than to ask you. Or if you, if you want to talk about it, they know just to listen. Do not isolate yourself because that's how you run out of that energy, and that's how you just snap one day and just say, to hell with you. Is it unreasonable for me to ask my adult children to not drink around their alcoholic brother, about 8 months sober, on an upcoming family vacation? No, it is absolutely not unreasonable for you to do that. But I would ask your son, the alcoholic, what he would prefer to do, because a lot of what we hear from them that makes them feel shameful When other family members can't drink around them, and that it makes them uncomfortable. So I would have that conversation. Like, is he saying? Is he saying I can't be around alcohol? I don't trust myself. Like, I think I wouldn't do it behind his back unless you do it super casually. Like, hey, Dad and I are not going to drink. We're sort of looking forward, you know, like a dry beach house. So hopefully you can you can hear that. But that's. Dad and I aren't, and we'd like you to join us, not don't drink around your brother. So I would defer to him on that. Kim, do you have anything else on that? Because that could be complicated.

No, I think you touched on the high points, which are you don't want to make the person that's newly sober— and 8 months is a decent period of time, but still newly sober— you don't want to make them feel uncomfortable by all of a sudden now the family has to change all of the norms. So if you go behind their back, And have these, you know, sideways conversations. That's not going to feel good for them. But I do think it's good to be able to educate the other kids and just say, hey, look, we don't know what we're doing, but this is what we've heard. We know that his brain is still— his or her brain is still very vulnerable to alcohol. So we would prefer that you didn't. You know, we've already told him that we— that this is the stance that we're taking. You guys could do whatever you're going to do. And you don't have to exactly say what I said. But you can hear the high points on that where everything is aboveboard. I'm stating what I'm comfortable with. I'm stating why I'm comfortable with it. I'm stating why I'm doing it, and I am asking, or at least putting my preference on the table. And so I think being able to kind of do that in a way that feels natural to your family. But as far as unreasonable, not at all. I think it's completely reasonable to ask for that 8 months.

Yeah, I just, I'm a big fan of transparency, so just. Do it like that. Anything else, Bree? How do you help someone who keeps saying you trigger them? Move to a different house. Um, I don't know. I guess I would ask them. I would be curious to say, how do I trigger you? Is there something I'm saying? Is there something I'm doing? Is it my perfume? Is it my face? Like, I would ask more questions. Then if it's something you can't, like, change because it's your face, then I guess I wouldn't be around them. But That's a bizarre thing. So my guess would be that's an excuse. People love to use the word trigger. So my guess would be when they're drinking, they're just blaming it on you. I think that's a deflection or a gaslighting situation, which is, well, I wouldn't drink, but you trigger me. That seems like so easy to say and so silly. But I would ask them specifically, and if it's something you are doing or saying, then don't do it. I mean, if it's you hum take me out to the ball game, and that makes him think of a cold beer, then you wouldn't know the answer to that. So either ask the question and get a real answer, or just know in your brain that's horse hockey. Does porn addiction have the same characteristics as drug or alcohol? Yes, porn addiction is like one of my least favorite addictions. Porn and video games, those are the hardest to treat. But yes, they impact the brain Porn is a dopamine addiction, just like substances, gambling, shopping. Those are all dopamine addictions versus anorexia and self-harming are endorphin addictions. But same thing, same hijacking of the brain, same pleasure pathway. Porn addiction is often also in adult alcoholics. Porn is often the primary addiction and alcohol or Xanax or something like that is the secondary addiction. So They can go hand in hand because of the shame factor of the porn. They use the shame shield of drinking to not feel as shameful. That's it. Okay. All right, you guys. I hope this was helpful. I hope didn't scare anybody, but I think it was information that you guys can benefit from, or at least think about. So thanks for joining us. Amber will be back next week for those of you who are disappointed looking for Amber, and we hope that you guys have a fabulous rest of your day and good weekend. All right, thanks guys.

Bye-bye.