Boundaries Demystified: Clearing Up the Confusion

Hey everybody. If you are struggling, the chances are that you are getting stuck in one of these 2 sticky spaces that we're going to talk about today. The first sticky space is that we are trying so desperately to fix our loved one, to fix them. We're peddling solutions, we're trying to manage them, and that's sticky. But the second sticky thing, and really what we're going to talk about, is we, without recognizing it, we become the problem in the room. We become the challenge. By the end of this video, you are going to understand how you— if you are the challenge and what you need to do to not be the challenge in the room. Most powerful things you can do is to focus on yourself, and that's what we're talking about today.

We're also going to focus on the 3 things that people typically do that make them the challenge in the room. So the first thing is that we have a difficult time knowing what our boundaries are, and we have a difficult time holding those boundaries. And to back up even further, it's oftentimes because we don't think that we need to do that because we are so focused on what they're doing wrong. And if they would just change, and if we can just convince them to change, then everything would get better. And this really is tied into becoming the challenge in the room. And so those of you that have watched a lot of these videos, you understand exactly what I'm talking about. But today I want to just be able to give you guys the vocabulary to ask yourself the internal question, Am I the challenge in the room? So if you start to notice there's resistance in your conversations, if you start to notice that you're having the same conversation over and over, I just want you to stop. Or even if you start to notice that frustration inside of your chest or your jaw or wherever it shows up for you, just to be able to stop and pause and just quickly ask yourself, am I the challenge in the room? And this is how you know you're the challenge in the room. Are you saying something that you've already said? Are you lecturing? Are you preaching? Are you begging? Are you convincing? Remember that first one, we start to peddle the solutions. If you would just— have you just made Maybe you should call your sponsor. All of these things are ways that we peddle. So if we catch ourselves doing that, the first thing we need to do is just stop, stop, stop, stop, because we are becoming the challenge in the room. We're peddling.

We do that because we're desperate. We do that because we don't know and we're getting conflicting information and we're just so determined that if we can corral them, that they will change.

But as you guys Most of you already know, the more we do that, the more resistance we get from them. And then we accidentally become the overt problem when they start as the overt problem. And then we slowly come in behind them as the COVID problem. But the more we do this, the more we become the overt problem.

Yeah. So what we want to do is to recognize that we have a problem and Begin to learn and to begin to understand exactly what the problem is and how to deal with it differently to get the result that we want. Because clearly what we've been doing—and we all start out like this, you guys. Like we all are bananas at the beginning because we don't understand what's happening. We think we can yell, lecture, scream, busy them, find them jobs, take them to school, call their boss. We think that's all going to change, and it's not.

Right. So if we back up even further to be able to say, if we're doing this, it's— this is more of an internal boundary that we probably need to work on. And the interesting part that Campbell and I work on a lot is this is, this is the really personal intimate work that you have to do with yourself, because sometimes that very first boundary is just being able to say, my, my goal for today is to be able to recognize when am I the challenge, and when I am the challenge, my boundary for myself, The, the agreement I make with myself is I'm going to stop talking, and that's it. That's the boundary that we hold. Some of us will find that it's really, really hard to, one, have that awareness in the middle of the thick session or thick moments. And some of us will realize that we just can't stop our mouth from moving, even though we know we're not supposed to. But this is also an indicator of, okay, let me just kind of back up and do some of my own internal boundary work.

So that's a hard shift.

Yeah.

And when we make that hard shift, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't. It feels nervous. We feel nervous. We feel anxious. We feel— because if we take our eye off this ball over here, it will spin crazily or bounce crazily. And while we're shifting inside, but we have to do this. We have to really understand our relationship with ourselves and And we're all different, and it doesn't make us wrong or right. Some people like me are super self-pres, and I just have a hard line of what I can tolerate faster than someone who's super socially oriented or really consumed in relationships differently, and they're going to just really struggle. I have lots and lots and lots of clients where there's a partner, and one person is usually like, "I'm done," and the other person is like, "Oh my gosh! I just." I can't handle anything. I can't change anything about myself. And so we just have to sit there. What Kim and I really talk about a lot is, is, is getting in there and doing that internal work so that we look at this differently. We can think about it differently. We can handle it differently.

Right. Because even in the example that Campbell gave, maybe in your head, you know, that's not where I want to be, but in your heart, that's where you are. And so part of the boundary work is being able again to have that agreement and that understanding with yourself to say, this is where I am for today. This is not maybe where I want to be or where— what my goal is, but it's where I am today. And once we can really create that, and it really is an internal boundary with ourselves, this acceptance to say, I'm not going to judge myself, I'm not going to do something just because I read it in a book because I know I'm not ready. And that is a boundary that we have to hold. And so when we can really walk into this knowing this won't be for forever— I never got to 6th grade without going through K through 5. I wasn't— Smart enough to skip a grade in elementary school. So I only got to 6th grade by going K through 5. And so to be able to say, if this is my goal of the type of boundaries that I want to have and hold, and this is the type of relationship I want, I've got to start here. And I have to give myself the permission to do that process.

I think it's permission as well as determination, because it's hard to look at yourself, to have this awareness, to be able to accept who you are, and then realize what What changes am I going to have to make, if any? And if so, that's hard work. And to recognize that I've been coming at a problem incorrectly, I've been doing this the wrong way or the hard way or the non-effective way is a lot of vulnerability. It's a lot of humility and willingness, which is what we have to sort of grasp, just like our loved one is eventually going to have to grasp that.

Right. So, Campbell and I are— we want to start taking questions from you guys, but before we do that, I want to be really clear on the things I want you guys to really start to think about. So the first thing is, if we're having a hard time holding boundaries or setting boundaries, or we feel like we're just kind of on this hamster wheel, this merry-go-round, I want you guys really to stop and think, am I falling? Am I, am I getting stuck in these sticky spots? Am I peddling solutions for them? And am I becoming the challenge in the room? And so, and then you can kind of just And again, to go what I said in the beginning, if you're finding yourself doing the same conversation, showing up the same way, just stop and just ask yourself, how am I the challenge in the room? And if you don't have the answer for that day, that's fine. You'll find it eventually. So those are the things as far as the first thing, how do you stop looking at them and start to focus on you? That's where I want you to start.

So I think that requires a lot of understanding of ourselves, understanding of the situation, learning what is addiction, because It's a brain disease. And if we come at it like they're just lazy or have too much time on their hands, then we're going to keep getting stuck and being the challenge in the room. And if we can figure out maybe I am the challenge in the room, and I think that's just there. Could I be part of the problem? Could I be contributing to this? Could I be? I think if we can open the door that that's possible, then we can begin to look at it differently. And give ourselves this permission to do this hard work to figure out how is that happening and why is that happening. And that's that's an internal job. Why is that happening? My fear, my anxiety, my stress, my judge, the judgment I'm getting, whatever is contributing to us has to be looked at. And that's where we can come at boundaries differently, come at the situation in general differently to get the outcome. that we're— that we want or that we're going to get. And I talk about this, we talk about this a ton of times, is that this does not always end in our loved one getting sober, but it always ends with us being who we are and how we, how we played the game, how we were involved.

Yeah.

So I really, you know, Kim and I have— there's a beta test that's coming out. It's available today. Um, for you to look at this relationship with yourself, to look at boundaries, to sort of figure this out. If you think you might be the challenge in the room, I think that thing might be super helpful for you. And it's something that, um, Tim and I worked hard on and we think it's super helpful. And we, we wanted it when we were where you guys are and we didn't have it because we hadn't made it yet. No one else did.

And we didn't know what we needed to know. So Now we know what we wish we would've known. So yeah.

Excellent. Yep. All right. All right. So, all right. My alcoholic husband only wants to connect, spend time, or talk when he's drinking. How do you establish connection if they don't wanna talk or connect when they're sober?

That's a good question.

That's a really good question. Um, my guess would be that might be also a lot of shame. is that they're avoiding you because they know that they're a problem. And that, so when they're sober, they forget that. And then they want to connect with you. I think— go ahead, Kim.

I think on this, going back into kind of, you don't want to peddle solutions to them. And so I'm really, really, really big on having boundaries in the context of where you are in that moment, in that situation, where you are in the process, all of that in the context of today may look different in the context Tomorrow. So I would say for this question specifically, if you're in a place where he, he or she is not— alcoholic husband— that he is not, um, bothering you to the point where you're just like coming out of your skin, or you're not so sad that you're just, just barely there. If you're in a place where you, you can be there for a moment and it's okay for you, then I would say talk to him. You know, if it, if it doesn't make you come out of your skin. If it's to the point where you're just like, I cannot do this today, or he does this every night and I don't have anything good to give him, Then don't. But I would give it in a way, you know, I would definitely give them an update on why you're doing what you're doing, even if it's, hey, I'm okay talking to you some of the times after work. Sometimes I'm upset and I don't want to talk to you, or I had a long day, or whatever it would be. I give them a really quick synopsis of what you're doing and why you're doing it, and then I would move forward into that.

But also, if it's enjoyable, if you can— if you're not going to call your skin, enjoy it for what it is without linking it to, but tomorrow's going to be a different— you know, he's going to drink again. Like, just, just enjoy it for what it is. And, and sometimes we just need those moments, those, those wins. And so I'm with Kim, like, don't, don't get walked on and feel like you get— got to do it because that's what he wants. But if it's enjoyable, let it just be enjoyable.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, and I think you're wise, just even the way that the, um, Question is written. It's not real connection. It it is something that that he is doing to get some form of a need met, and you're just kind of playing the game in that in that moment.

But it's not real connection. No, just like using using buddies or not friends. Right. All right, little Lulu. How to support your loved one in recovery center and does not show acceptance of the next step of sober living and getting a job. Wants to leave after the program ends with no plan. What words of encouragement can I give him? Third time in rehab. We love him, but getting tired of worrying about him. Yeah, I get that. I think the first thing you got to do is sort of, again, have a relationship with yourself and be able to answer the question, can I hold the boundary that we're not going to rescue? You're not coming back home. We're not going to find an apartment. Can I hold that boundary? And if so, Explain that kindly and lovingly. Like this is up to you whether whether you go to the next thing that's being recommended or not is on you. But but you will be leaving here independently. You'll be leaving here financially independent, and and as you're comfortable with that, then you get to make the decisions. But we just want to let you know that coming home is not an option. We love you dearly, but we can't do that. No, that's a big that's a big conversation that links to what we were talking about earlier because if you can't hold that. Then you need to know that. And then you don't say anything.

Support will look different, you know, and because support's a, you know, that's a big word. We can have lots of different ways to show support, but being able to really start with yourself. What can I do? What can't I do? What's good for me? What, you know, all of that. And then I would plug in the kind of support that you can, that you can or can't have.

And don't link the fact that if you can't, if you, if you can hold the boundary that they can't come home, that that's not love. Yeah. So I think that's a really hard— people like, I can't do that, then he'll be mad at me, or he won't think we love him. You have to understand that sometimes holding a boundary is loving. And in this case, this is your third rodeo, and they have to ultimately get the message that tag, you're it, which is you do you, but we, we can't be their rescuers anymore. Right? Yeah. Well, good, Lulu.

I'm glad that that's I'm glad that was helpful.

All right. How do you encourage your spouse to open up if it's hard for them to do so? I think you can acknowledge that this is hard for you to do, and, but I love it when you do, and I feel close to you when we, when we share and when you open up and, and then model it.

I also think you can kind of, if you have an idea of what is helpful for them, then I would Then I would do that for a lot of. I don't know if this is male, female, or what we're doing here, but the males typically they do better with communication side by side. They do better with communication while doing a task, you know, doing a home improvement project, taking the dog for a walk, whatever it is. They do better, you know, side by side, busy doing stuff. So I think even like how do you encourage it? You can set up the you can set up the environment in a way that may make it more likely for them to talk to you. Parents out there, you have an idea of when your kid. are most likely more likely to talk to you. Same concept here, only obviously we're turning the temperature way up with addiction, but set the environment up. Don't be overly responsive and don't be under-responsive, which I know is not helpful at all, but find that line.

And maybe you need to go first. I mean, maybe they have something they want to open up about, but they don't know when to do it, what the time would be, how receptive you would be. So maybe if you just set up a time to like sit down and play a card game or something that would be, I have time, I want to spend time with you, we're doing this activity. And then you could share while you're playing the card game and see if he reciprocates. Um, sometimes people want to connect, but they, they're afraid to do so because it's too vulnerable.

Yeah. And most people will connect and share when they are enjoying their time because they feel safer. And then it just naturally happens.

Yeah. All right, Christina. After 3 and a half years of back and forth, I told my ex that I need to move on in life and heal. He has not reached out since then, which is unlike him, and neither have I. It's been 2 months. That's hard. Yeah, that's tough, but I'm proud of you for recognizing that you want to heal. And that you deserve that. What's the rest of the question? Huge guilt feeling. Did I do the right thing? Should I stay strong and not reach out? If you want to move on, then I would stay strong and concentrate on yourself.

The guilt, remember there's 2 different types of guilt. There's real guilt, like I've done something that's outside my integrity, outside of the way I live life. And then there's learned guilt. Learned guilt comes from the families we grew up in, the society that we live in, the culture that you know that that we were raised in. And so it we do have a tendency to feel guilty when we walk away from something or when we end something because we tend to ruminate on it. Did I make the right decision? Was I this? Was I that? And that's more of what this guilt sounds like to me is it's more of that rumination of box checking like did I did I did I could have I could have I could have I but I think on this it's been a couple months you you made the decision my guess is with a lot of thought a lot of intentionality and I would I think it's probably in your best interest to. Stick with it. You stuck with it this long, and he's not reaching out. Right.

All right, Dale. I need to separate from my alcoholic wife in the house for now due to our kids. She said she needs my support to stop. How do I live in another room and support her? She's not going to understand. That's a hard one too.

That's tough. And here's that word support again. So I think that you can support her without knowing anything about the relationship. I think you can support her by holding that line and basically saying, hey, this is just what I need to do for the safety of the family and the safety of the kids. I think you can offer her things like maybe a Soberlink or a breathalyzer or whatever is possible within the family that, you know, and based on where she's at in the process, something that's going to help her. If she doesn't take you up on those things, then that's important information that you need to hear. Not that she won't ever, but This is where she is right now. So you're probably over here. She may not be over there yet in the process.

Yeah. And we can never manage anyone else's recovery. So we can support by being a cheerleader or by loving them, but we can't be the babysitter for sobriety.

Right. So we can be kind and respectful and clear and, you know, and reliable.

But I do think this is a good point, Dale, is if that's Crossing a boundary that you don't, you don't like that it doesn't feel good to you. It makes you anxious or unhappy or sad. Then then I think that you you need to do what was good for you and for the children in the situation, and you can still support her from afar, but not have to live in an environment that makes you feel not good. All right, married a long time. How do you get them to stop playing the victim? Oh, if we knew that we could be rich. Every conversation is somehow how horrible he is. I call it out, but he keeps going down that road. That's just addiction. They love that victim card. That then that's a shame mitigator, you guys. It's not, it's, it's just the way they flip the story so that they don't have to look at themselves and recognize that they are the challenge in the room. Look back so that you're the challenge in the room because that feels better to them.

And I would, married a long time, I would encourage you to change that. Statement in your mind, like, how do I get them to stop playing the victim, to how am I going to respond when they play the victim? Because they're, I mean, their life really isn't great right now. They really, you know, I mean, granted they play the victim because it does help feed the addiction and it gives them a reason to be the challenge in the room and in their mind be okay with it to some extent. But also their life typically is not great at this point. They, they know their relationships aren't great. They're not who they wanna be. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of remorse.

A lot of regret.

So there is that playing the victim and sometimes they really do feel like they have been victimized.

Well, yeah, I think they do actually believe that because remember, addiction is a liar. And while they lie to us constantly, more importantly, they're lying to themselves. It's not that bad. It's nobody notices. I've got this under control. I only do it because my spouse makes me. And so that's that lying pattern of addiction, addictive thinking. That, that is very, very, very married to the victim role. Right. Right. So I think Kim's point is solid, which is I'm just not going to play with this, or I'm going to play with it very quickly, very kindly and fast and exit stage left.

My favorite way to deal with a perpetual victim is to play dumb. Just don't notice it because if they're just constantly coming and I'm not engaging or reinforcing it, it's not that it goes away, but It goes away faster. So it's like, man, I'm the worst person in the room. This is terrible. I always mess everything up. To be able to say, well, it seems like, seems like you really want to figure out how to solve that. I'm going to go work in the garden, which I know makes me sound insensitive. But if you've heard this 100 times, you just kind of acknowledge it and move on. Because if you sit there, it's going to get worse and they're going to try to pull you in, or you don't understand, or you think I'm terrible. And then you're just stuck trying to figure out how to be supportive. And not get pulled in. Yeah.

I thought, I also think you could use the empowerment triangle in that example and say, that must, that must feel terrible. Like that makes me sad to hear that for you. I would hate to feel like that, but you're a smart guy and you can figure out how to feel differently. I'm going to be working in the garden.

Or man, I wish I had something like, I've given you all, all the good advice I have on that, or I've given you all everything I've got to offer on that solution or that topic. And it just doesn't ever seem to go well for us. So I hope you can figure it out. I'm going to go work in the garden.

All right, Stacy. I have shut down and don't say anything about my alcoholic husband's drinking. I'm not sure what boundaries to set to even try to keep. Should I give updates as to what I'm feeling or doing when he seems clueless?

That's a hard one to answer, Stacy. I think it depends on what stage of change he's in and where you are in the process. If we're kind of if you're in this stage of kind of like. You know, game on. And that's, you know, what we refer to as far as, hey, as a partner, as a family member, I really am just kind of taking a back seat, taking my hands off. I'm not being the bad guy. I'm not putting a target on my back. I'm not going to be the deflection, but I am just going to kind of sit back and watch you realize that you have a problem. If you're in that stage, then I wouldn't— I would just keep doing what you're doing. I'd make process comments, reflective statements, let natural consequences happen. If you're not there, if you're already kind of through that or past that, then I would say— Probably being able to set specific boundaries would be helpful for you. But again, without knowing much about the situation, it would be hard for me to give any kind of solid input on that.

Or, or how are you with boundaries in general? Like, yeah, so if we're not very good, then I mean, we don't ever have a boundary unless you're going to hold it. And so, and remember, boundaries start with the word I. So you have to sort of, without knowing that, like, figure out What those would be, and can you hold them?

Yeah. And, and, you know, Campbell, I know you showed us fitness. I'm going to speak for you, but less is more. So you want to have big, powerful boundaries, but less is more. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to figure out what to do with the situation, but I'm not, I'm not really interested in being uncomfortable like I have in the past. You know, that's an information update. The boundary is going to come when that uncomfortable moment happens and you do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. yourself in that moment, which in itself could be, as you hold that boundary, it could be a natural consequence as far as what happens in the addiction. Yeah.

All right, Kaylin, what are our thoughts on individual therapy versus couples? My husband tends to feel ganged up on when we do couples therapy. This has caused him to stop going.

Yeah. Very, very, very common. Very common. If you're in active addiction, I don't think, you know, Not a good idea. It's a— couples therapy is a really good breeding ground for contempt and things that someone that's struggling with active addiction, they can kind of pull up and weaponize. Um, and if the, if the therapist doesn't quite understand everything that's going on, it would make sense that he would feel ganged up on. So I would definitely do more individual, especially since that's the outcome that you've gotten at this point.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean you can't do couples later, but I would, I would stick with individual at this point.

I mean, I think couples therapy, when there's active addiction in the middle of it, a lot of the problems that we're trying to deal with in couples therapy are because of the addiction. I'm not saying there aren't others not related to it, but a lot of 'em are. He never talks to me. He's always drinking. He's always with his friends. He always stops at the bar. Like, as long as the active addiction is going on, those problems are gonna happen over and over and over and over again.

Mm-hmm.

So I feel like it's just Fruitless.

Yeah. And, and also in those situations, even if we aren't the challenge in the room, they can accuse us of being the challenge in the room. And then when we get into couples therapy, they try to pin us to be that. And sometimes the entire session is, is focused around something that's really not that helpful or big. But to go real back quickly back to Stacy, um, we didn't hit the last part of your question, like, should you give him updates on how you're feeling? I would not, not in that situation, because he's probably not, it's probably not going to be helpful.

Yeah. All right. Married a long time again. How do you call out the secret drinking? Letting them know, you know. What would, what's the, I mean, you don't have to, you have to think of, is there an advantage to letting them know? Yeah. If they're just going to start a fight and scream and yell at you and do it anyway. I would just know it instead of pointing it out. If you think that they're in a relapse and that they think they're getting away with it, you could just say, hey, I'm aware that we're drinking again, just so you know. I hope that you can resolve that. Like, I think you have to look at why you would call something out.

Right. Another strategy is if you— I would not do this in the middle of someone drinking, but if you just happen to stumble upon their stash or you know where their stash is, would just put it in the cupboard. You don't have to say anything. Put it in the fridge, put it in the cupboard, because it's this very, um, bold nonverbal. Because they're gonna, they're gonna go for the stash and it's gonna be in the cupboard where, you know, stuff goes. So, you know, that's another option where you're acknowledging, you know, but you're not really making a big scene out of it.

Yeah, I wouldn't throw it away though. I wouldn't make a big pour down the sink thing because they're just gonna go buy more and they're gonna be mad at you, and then they're gonna Flip that around again and be the victim. Well, I wouldn't have bought more, but she threw out my.

And not not throwing it out if you set a really clear limit as far as like hey, I'm not comfortable with this being in the house because of the kids, or you know I don't every time you drink we get in a huge fight. So from this point on, I don't want it in the house. And you and you have declared this. If you come across it, I would you could throw it away. But again, you're not going to make a scene out of it. You're not going to. You're not even going to declare it. You're just going to do it. And when they say, "Did you do this?" You can say, "Yes, I did," and you know move on with the moment. But I would say that's a very, very, very select people that that answer even applies to.

But that's a really good point because I remember lots like back in the day, like there will be no weed in this house, and if I found it, I just threw it away, and they were never bold enough to come to me and say, "Did you throw my weed away?" Like they just would be mad, I'm sure. But it never. But I was just like, "No, I have. I have made a stance, and I'm holding the." I didn't go look for it or you know search for it, but if I found it, I was like, "No, this is not happening." Right? Yeah. Yeah. Sue, how do I respond to my alcoholic spouse in denial who continues to use emotional abuse, financial threats, splitting, blame shifting, minimizing, emotional blackmail, etc., in order to quit, to avoid quitting? Wow, that's.

That's a hard one. That sounds like they're definitely in precontemplation. So how do you respond to him? I think that this is a really good and hard example, though, to be able to say, really focusing on you.

Mm-hmm.

What do you need? How can you— what is in your best interest when he's coming at you with this emotional manipulation? And really being able to kind of figure out, how am I going to take care of myself when these things happen?

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is some internal work. All right. P, does having a membership with weekly calls cover issues like codependency? If those questions are asked? Yeah.

Yeah. With our membership, we talk a lot about codependency.

We also deal with codependency in the beta program that Kim and I are launching. We have a whole whole module on codependency and how to how to recognize it, change it, deal with it. Yeah. All right. We are out of time. We are out of time. Bree, thank you for the wave. All right, guys. So. Thanks a bunch, and we hope that you have a good week, and we'll see you soon.

Yep. All right, bye guys.

All right, bye guys.