Critical Advice For Families of Addicts/Alcoholics About Boundaries

This is critical advice for families of people struggling with an addiction, particularly critical for the parents out there. We're going to talk about off limits behaviors. Now, I know when you saw this title, you thought off limits behaviors meant what behaviors they shouldn't be doing, but we tricked you because this is off limit behaviors as far as what you shouldn't be doing. And we have our family recovery expert, Campbell Manning. She is here with. She is an expert because she has the professional qualifications, but more importantly than.

That, she has glasses.

She's got glasses, so she's smart. Clearly she's got two sons in recovery. She's been there, she knows all about boundary setting and she's gonna share with us her wisdom of the day. And I think what Campbell is calling this is smothering versus mothering.

Correct?

Tell us about it, Campbell.

So, and really, frankly, this advice goes to all parents, but it's, it's definitely applicable for, you know, when we're struggling with kids who are struggling with addiction. But smothering is basically any sort of fear based behavior that comes to us as parents. So it's asking too many questions, judging, criticizing, overly enmeshment. And it's all coming out of fear. Like, you know, that codependence of what will or will not happen if I do or do not know this or give you my opinion, it's fear based, but it's more telling our kids what they should or should not be doing, which they're not going to listen to you. And you know that with addiction. So then that just gives them that reason to flip back out and say, well, I wasn't going to use, but now mom's driving me crazy, so I am.

It's all your fault.

It's all your fault. But I think a lot of it is comes from, you know, as parents, we are generally hardwired intuitively to not let our kids make mistakes or fail. And, and in fact that's what they need to do in general, but particularly with addiction because that's what lets them define their life as unmanageable.

That's right. Sarasota's helicopter Helicopter parents. That's right.

It is helicoptering. But, and you know, that's an overused term. But with addiction it's 100% part of the problem. It's over management. It's an over controlling. But what happens is even aside from addiction, it leaves your kid feeling anxious and self doubting and incapable. And therefore that's where we get more and more need for dopamine or endorphins which are those short term pleasure chemicals that are addictive, come with substances, self harming. And so it's hard to let your kid bounce and skin their knees and then figure out how to put their own band aids on or how to avoid that sidewalk that skinned them.

Right.

But we have to do that.

It's like they get caught up in the short term feel better instead of being trained to get the long term feel better. Which is what you get when you're proud of yourself, when you make a.

Mistake and fix it or navigate your own life. And maybe like I was just talking to a client, she said, you know, maybe I won't get into the University of Miami, but I'll learn what I did wrong and I'll learn from that. And parents are just like, honor, like, did you do this? Did you do this? Did you do this? And she's like, now I didn't want to go there.

Right. It really just doesn't allow your kid to develop any self esteem because self esteem really comes from a feeling of self confidence. Like, I got me, like I can handle it. And that's, that's where self esteem comes from. Not from, you're great, you're pretty, you're wonderful. It comes from this internal feeling of you can handle what the world throws at you. And if you're helicoptering your kid, they can't get that. It's not gonna happen.

They're not gonna get it at all. It's like I can't get ahead of serotonin, which is self esteem pride by, you know, sitting in my house in the driveway and say, boy, I'm gonna really drive to work. Super well today I don't get here, park the car and get a hit of dopamine. It doesn't come like, it just comes from this internal message of, I've got this, I know I'm cool, I know I'm capable, and if I make a mistake, I'll figure out how to fix it.

Right? So it's, it's getting comfortable with letting your kid be uncomfortable. Right?

Right. Which is that non intuitive parenting because that pushes on our fear button of what will happen if I don't do what I normally do.

Right.

And, and, and with addiction, it's super scary because they could overdose or they could leave your house, or they could, could do all kinds of terrible things. Right. You still have to allow it.

It's like it's hard for any parent in general to let their kid be uncomfortable. But the level of uncomfortableness that you have to allow when your kids addicted is frightening. It's. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's like, are they cold, are they hungry? You know, who are they with or something? It's scary, right?

It's very scary. But there's nothing you can do about it anyway. So I think if you practice some of the things that will be the opposite of that, you'll feel better. And eventually we all know what was the opposite of addiction. Connection. So if you parent in this other way, you're more likely to build that connection that could help you in the addiction or ultimately will just be there for the relationship when hopefully this is all said.

Right. And you know what? I think another thing to really pay attention to is it's not just that when you don't allow your kid to be uncomfortable, you're not letting them get self esteem, but you also, in the end, you feel guilty about it because deep down inside there's some kind of something inside of you that says you didn't act right and then you don't have good self esteem, so it leaves everybody.

I don't know, I'd have to think that one through for a minute. But I think ultimately what happens is you don't have any control over it. So that impacts your self esteem is that I wasn't maybe the best parent to avoid this.

But sometimes that, that fear leads you to do things like yell, scream, punish, act like crazy, and you feel guilty about that. I guess. I guess, yeah.

Yeah, that's true.

So you end up acting in a way that's not true to yourself and then you feel bad. So it's just, it's not helping you, it's not helping them. It's just keeping everybody.

It's the illusion of control that does absolutely nothing but escalate the problem and highlight it.

Exactly. Well, you're telling us what not to do, Campbell. Tell us a little bit about what to do. Oh, no, you're on your own there. The opposite. Don't just tell us how we're all wrong.

You're all wrong. Y' all just messing this up. I mean, basically what it is, is I like to talk to parents in general about parenting from a point of curiosity. You know, sort of, you can't go there. Those are the wrong friends. You're making a mistake. You can't go out is who will be there. How do you think that'll play out, come out? And so that way the kid's going to probably make the same mistake, but they're not going to leave with looking in the mirror and seeing you, they're going to look more in the mirror and see themselves. And ultimately that's what will help them stop.

Right. It's really just. You've got to remove yourself from distracting them from seeing the problem. That's what I say.

Yeah.

It's like you're blocking the view. And. And Lori is on here. She's asking about spouses. And everything we're saying here really applies to good, healthy boundaries in general.

For all relationships.

For all relationships.

Yeah.

Right. You'll feel better. Your relationships will be healthier, and it's just better. Healthier boundaries, relationships in general.

And that person stays intact and you stay intact. And also, you know, we always talk about, with addiction, you want to go towards yourself by not parenting or wifing or relating in general toward that. You. You have the liberty to go towards yourself because you're not all up on them.

I feel like what almost always happens in addicted family is, of course, the family, whatever your role is, get scared. And so you come in and you try to control the situation. Because the reason I know that is because when people with substance abuse problems or any addiction come in and see me, the first thing they say is how controlling their family is. Like, I can script it out for you, what they're gonna say. And. And they just get fixated on that. And they are. And it's just a distraction from seeing what they're doing.

Distraction from seeing what they're doing and from the. It's holding them at base to a degree of what they're afraid will happen.

Right.

But just like one. This doesn't really work.

Campbell, have you ever been guilty of a smothering behavior? No, never.

I actually was a really non smothering mother until addiction. And then I became crazy.

What kind of crazy did you get? We want to hear your. We want to hear your good stories too.

No, they're not good. They're unattractive. Just, you know, controlling. Where are you going? Who's that out there searching their rooms? The things that you guys are doing. But I mean, as far as, like, smothering mothering, I. Well, yeah, that's. I did. I made them go to schools I wanted them to go to. I did.

You did?

I did.

They had to go to the right school.

They had to go the right schools.

No.

And they had to wear color socks.

That's what I say. I was about to say no one knew they had to wear the right clothes because the camp was like, about the. The outfits probably had to Be just right.

They had to wear colored socks to Sunday school.

Thank you. We appreciate the confession.

This in hindsight, terrible.

Okay.

Yeah.

What did you have to do to let go of that fear? Like for you personally, what other happened?

Yeah, what I had to do was just sort of be what we tell people to do all the time is for non intuitive parenting. So I just had to realize I wasn't in control and it didn't make it easy. It was terrible. You know, you were there. It's not pretty but. But I had to focus on what I could control, which was me. I had to focus on my relationship with Margaret because that needed to be nurtured and fostered. I had to refocus on Frank and I had to recognize that I could do all the education I could as a parent in parent group and that's all I could do. But when they did come home or they were there, I tried to engage with them in a, in an accepting, non judgmental. I could be angry inside but I tried not to overtly show it because I really wanted them to figure out they could come home.

Right. You wanted to create a safe dynamic in the relationship. And how long was it like that where you were really inside feeling like you're screaming on the inside but being nice on the outside? How long until that got lined up?

Well, since I had back to backers.

It was a minute.

It was a while. It was a minute. I'm gonna go with six to 12 months before it was like pretty back.

To where it was like you're like the way you felt inside matched.

But with the second one, remember I was in grad school and so I just threw myself into school and it was I think Margaret's last year or two of high school. So I just threw myself into enjoying her and trying to find that gas clutch of doing a good job at school and being a mom.

Right. I feel like that's actually a really good tip that you're giving because it's like it's hard to tell yourself not to think about things. You know, it's what I tell people they're in early recovery. It's like if you tell yourself don't use, don't think about it, you know, you're just going to think about it more. An easier tactic is to say what you are going to think about.

What can I add in? Instead of therefore my time for what I was giving it gets smaller and smaller. And that's what I mean when go, go towards yourself. I think I also just sort of Figured out that I needed to let them fail.

Mm. And as painful as that is, what you'll notice is when you can get your relationship right with them, they start interacting with you differently. And I feel like. And then that's what helps the feelings sort of match up. Right. Because. Because you're reacting to them differently, they're reacting to you more positively, and then you start liking them more. And then when you do that, they are more open with you, and you can understand where they're thinking and where they are. And it helps you to feel safer. I think when you get.

I think it helps you to feel safer, but it helps them to grow and tolerate. And I. I use this example just in all parenting relationships as children, you know, get up close to 16, 17, 18. I don't. If any of my children are watching this, which I doubt, I hope that this is true. But I don't tell my kids what to do. I haven't told them what to do in a long, long time. If they ask me what I think, I ask them questions that allow them to come to their own conclusion. I don't tell them my opinion.

You counsel it. You counsel it. You give them the counsel.

But it works. And they. So now they'll. Margaret will call and say, can you talk me in or out of this thing? And I'll say, sure. Give me your line of thinking. And I have to say like, five sentences. And she goes, I've got it. Thanks a bunch. That was super helpful, and hangs up.

Right. I think the whole thing is when you're doing that, you're slowing down the process. If you just get out of the way, it'll go faster. That's what I see. Let's take some. Let's take some.

And they will have to look in the mirror and recognize that mistakes were on them and successes were on them. And that is where. That's where they win. And you win.

Exactly. Because they have to take ownership of the good and the bad. Let's see. Brandon says, I was told all the time by my future ex wife that my stressors were causing her to use benzodiazepines. What do you think?

Horse crap.

Did you? I probably. My guess is that her use of benzodiazepines was causing you to be more stressful.

Yeah. You know, I think she's got it wrong.

But again, the best is an offense. Right. It's one triggers the other and back and forth and back and forth.

And that's just the victim mentality of addiction.

How do you get Them to care enough to try to get out of everything is a negative mindset. The self pity, just like you're talking about the victim mindset.

Don't feed into it.

Right. Don't play the role.

Don't play the role. Don't feed into it. Validate, ask questions, Say, wow, that must stink. What else do you think you could do? What do you think you could do differently? Get out of the antagonist role. That puts them into the victim role.

Because that just gives them permission. That just gives them something to feel sorry about. Right, Right.

But by validating, you're still saying, I care. I'll have this conversation, I'll play with you, but I'm just not going to go into the old roles. Right.

Okay. My son's self esteem has greatly improved since going through rehab. I'm so proud of him. I love a success story.

I'm sure his self esteem is way up there because his dopamine is down and his serotonin is up.

She's got a good profile. Nine more with Mandy.

I like that. Oh, got to be more with Amber tomorrow.

More.

Well, thanks, Mandy.

Yeah. All right, let's see what Lisa says. Do you think addicts really feel judged or that it is more them saying, you're judging me as a way to deflect? This is a good question, because with my experience, when the addict accused me of judging them, I felt the need to defend myself and say, I'm not judging you. I just want you to be happy, healthy and alive.

I. I think you're right. I think it's them playing the victim role and flipping it back on you. They're not capable of feeling judged because judging lives in your limbic brain and that's not what's running the boat. So I think they're just flipping it back on you to mitigate what they're getting ready to do.

So you think it's not really like they're dying inside of where they're just deflecting.

They're just deflecting. Exactly.

Deflecting them.

That's not really impacting them. It's just a. It's just a nice baseball bat to use. Yeah.

And. And not like saying, you don't love me.

You don't, you weren't a good mother. I mean, all those things that they say just so they can, I'm gonna kill myself. All those things they say to go get whatever permission we can give them at the end to capitulate.

Right.

That lets them go.

So what do you say when they do that?

I hate that you feel like that.

Yeah. But I might say something like, yeah, I guess I probably am judging that bad decision that you made.

You're right.

The judgments I must feel like when you don't trust me or you don't love me, if you just own it.

I would own you don't trust me. I'd say you're right, I don't. But I can't stop what you're doing.

Yeah. And I might say I'm judging the decisions that you're making, because the truth is, you probably are, and that's okay.

But it's not the reason they're using, Right?

Right.

So that statement he's blaming on you, that's the falsehood.

Yeah.

Amber's point's true.

Yeah. So if you just. If you almost own it, it's like they can't use it as a weapon against you. Right.

Right.

All right, let's see. Jennifer says, I was a helicopter wife and I had to stop, but I'm still catching my husband and lies. What do I do? What do you do? Believe him? It depends.

It depends. It depends on what their lives are. If they're wrapped around addiction, I would pay them no attention. If they're wrapped around life in general. I mean, remember that addicts lie all the time, so that muscle in their brain gets very, very strong and it becomes a go to behavior. So lying lasts for a long time after someone even gets sober.

It's like a. It's a reactive defense mechanism. In some cases.

Yeah. And I also just think the lying muscle in the brain is like your quad. And the more you use it, the stronger it gets. And it takes a long time for your quad to atrophy, so it takes a long time for that to change.

Yeah, I guess the answer to that, Jennifer, is really complicated because I feel like it depends on what the lie is and what the purpose of the line is. And that's what I try to figure out is what's the purpose of the lie.

If also, are you asking him questions that will lead him to lie? And if that's the case, stop asking questions. I tell people all the time, don't ask the question you already know the answer to because they're going to lie and then you're just going to be pissed. So just don't ask him.

Right, Right. Don't set yourself up.

Yeah. Like, don't say to your. Like, I've got a client right now. And he's constantly saying to his son, are you using? And the kid says, no. And Then he comes in here and he tells me. I'm like, of course he's using.

Right. I feel like if the lie is something like you say, did you drain the bank account of all of our money? And they're all about that, that's probably something you need to deal with. Right. Because that's something that's in your lane. Right. If.

But you already know the answer to that because you didn't drain it, but.

You still have to address it, I guess.

Well, I would just change the bank.

Account, address it that way. If it's just you're asking them about something that's in their lane and they're lying about it because they're shameful about it, embarrass someone, get in trouble, but it's not really in your lane, then I probably would just let it be. I do. In session all the time. You don't have to worry that their web of lies will catch them. You don't have to do anything about it. It will. It will catch up to them.

Oh, yeah, it'll handle all the time. Parents lie. I didn't do that.

I just. Sometimes I just sit back and wait for it to unfold. Yeah. All right.

Because that plays out exactly what we're saying the dynamic is. We could call them out on it, but they're just going to get defensive. They're not going to look in the mirror. They're not going to learn to grow from it. We might win the point.

Right.

But they won't win the battle. Right.

All right. Christine says I left rehab without finishing last week. It's been terrible. He's back home.

His son left.

Oh, his son left. His son left rehab. He's back home and was drunk this morning. Frightened my 8 year old and 11 year old as we got ready to go back to school.

Make an appointment.

Yeah, that's a.

That's gonna unravel faster. Better.

Yeah. The problem is, is he left rehab without finishing and you let him come back home. Yeah, that's never.

That's never.

We've never seen that turn.

Never, never. Zero times.

Right. In the whole time we've been doing this.

Never.

Yeah.

But it can be fixed.

Yeah, it can be fixed.

It's all.

Is not lost.

You're just gonna have to hold some boundaries and change it up and we can help.

Right. I had a parent say to me recently that they feel like they've just done it wrong so many times. And I said, don't worry, you're gonna get a thousand more chances. Right. You're gonna get a do over. Yeah.

Tonight, right?

In five minutes, roughly. Sarah says, when I started asking more questions, telling it happened, it opened up the conversation.

Always with everyone.

And not more questions to catch them in a lie, I'm guessing, Sarah. But more questions as far as just trying to understand or, you know, what they're thinking or feeling. Not like, did you do this bad thing? I'm assuming that's probably the case, yeah.

Out of curiosity, how's. How are your college applications going versus did you finish all your essays?

Let's see. Barbara says, and come from a place of embarrassment that will also cause you to do, like, the smothering, the bad behaviors, like when you feel embarrassed.

Oh, yeah. That's the whole shame that, you know, we feel as the family members that, you know, because society is thinking about us, our friends are talking about us. It's that shame that makes you do that because you want it to go away so desperately.

Right? Yeah. Lisa says I was accused of being an authoritarian, but only after my loved one's addiction took over. But the addiction took over. My loved one never complained. I was controlling. I was just like. She wasn't controlling before, but all of a sudden she was.

Because she's not controlling. She just. That's just. Again, the best defense is an offense, right? They're just flipping it right back on you. You're not controlling, and you know it.

Hey, y', all, how do you get over the guilt of being accused of abandoning them, Doing their lowest points? That's a good one.

Well, I guess it would depend on what abandoning means. Did you drive them to the desert and leave them there, or did you let them struggle and suffer and have to come to the realization they needed help? I don't know what abandoning means. It also sounds victim talking, right?

I think you. I think what you do with that is you get honest with yourself about what happened. And my guess is what happened is you gave them every opportunity over and over and over again, and they chose not to take them. That's probably what really happened, right? Even if you said, you can't live here anymore, you probably gave them 100 chances on how to live here. You probably looked for them a shelter. You probably look for them at treatment center.

Even if you took them to treatment and they said you abandoned me, that's just, again, the disease waving its ugly head that it doesn't like what's happening.

Right? And the truth of it is, is they abandoned you. Right? The addiction causes them to abandon their relationship with you and to be asked to stay in that when. When they've been out of it for a long time. It's not fair and out of bounds. Right.

But we hear that all the time. Like kids will say like even in a joint session as we're literally getting them to go to treatment is you don't love me. I mean I remember my own son said you just want me to go to treatment so that you and dad can party all day. It's like, yeah, because we don't have full time jobs and other children. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. But it's that is that effort. Right.

It's an ace card.

It's the ace card to not get.

So from the bottom of the deck. Ace card cheating. Yes.

I put it there.

Yeah. Like Frank, Jen, Rummy, can you tell alcoholic siblings you want no contact when they are drinking? It's only time they're abusive.

Absolutely. It's a boundary. You can hold.

You can. But they're probably going to try to like call you. They probably, if it's like alcohol they probably do like the drunk calling or something.

You don't have to answer though.

Most people know like after a certain time they know their and they're like I don't answer after this time. That that would be.

Yeah. So I guess that's a better point to you. I wouldn't tell them they can't call you because they can. They have fingers. You don't answer it.

Yeah. You set the boundary just by what you'll do and not do. You don't have to announce it because the saying it's probably just going to start an argument.

Yeah. So I said if you kick me, I'm going to leave. You have no intention of kicking me, right?

All right. Vera says, how do you help a grown adult children who no longer live at home avoid self sabotage, lose my job home, go back to living with my parents, etc.

Oh well the way you in the future avoid it is you don't offer your home as the sanctuary when they screw up. You let them figure out I can't screw up because I don't have any other options. And that's that message I'm always talking about which is tag, you're it. If I knew if I got Amber to send me blank thousands of dollars every month but. But I didn't have to be here, I would probably come to work because I love it. But the average person wouldn't. So my self sabotaging if she's going to fix it, it's not really self sabotage. So that's sort of what you have to look at is if you offer a sanctuary when they screw up. It's not a screw up. They're not learning anything.

Yeah. You have to let them make mistakes and you have to let them fix their mistakes.

Not. Not you help them fix them.

Right. And then when you help them, that's the point where you're ultimately not letting them get that self esteem. Right.

It feels better to you in the short term because it's less anxiety provoking. It looks maybe better to your friends. It's less fear based, but it's long term, not good for anybody. And then it just gets you in this loop that you just said, which is self sabotage. Come home, go back.

And then you get yourself in the drama triangle because you get resentment because you did all this and they're not appreciative or they didn't fix it and it's just.

And then it goes back to that. My parents are judgmental, critical. They just throw that back on you.

Right. This one, Stephanie. Or let's see, Seraphines. I haven't seen that name. Have you seen that before? Okay. I left the family home with the children because he was buried deep into drugs and scared me. Yeah.

Good choice wise.

Yeah. Especially when there are little kids involved. Barbara says the lies do come to the surface. My husband jumps from addiction to addiction, alcohol, method, porn, boast about his past and wears the role of garbage can with pride. That kills me. Right. That what Barbara saying is just step back. You don't have to catch them. It's going to show itself. Yep. Right. Thank you so much everyone who joined us. Thank you, Campbell, for helping us out. And we will see you guys next Thursday at 1 Eastern.

Bye.