Crucial Advice about Handling Legal Problems Related to Addiction

Hello everybody. We have a special treat for you guys. We have special guest with us, Natalie from Natalie's Lawyer Chick YouTube channel. And she so kindly agreed to talk to us and answer some of our questions about sort of the intersection between addiction and the legal system, how to handle problems. When you run into that maybe what's best, what do they call it, like a best protocol kind of thing. And what maybe some things to steer away from and what's not a great idea, whether it's yourself that's run into those legal problems or it's your loved one. Now, Natalie, I'll let you tell a little about yourself if you want to. And Natalie was just telling me before you guys got on here about where she is and some of the things that goes on in her area, which is really different as far as addiction and that kind of thing.

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much, Amber, for inviting me on your wonderful channel. Very insightful. Such interesting topic matter. So I am a criminal defense attorney. I've been practicing for over a decade at this point. I have had other areas of practice like workers compensation, but I have just home honed myself in on criminal defense attorney work, criminal defense work, and in particular pro bono criminal defense. I'm a public defender now and it is my passion. I love it. I launched my or relaunched my channel in 2019, 2020, around the start of the thing that's happening that's, you know, all over the place. And I started that and I renamed my channel Natalie Lawyer Chick. And I discovered discuss legal topics from the perspective of a criminal defense attorney. And that's, you know, kind of what we've been doing. I do reaction videos, analysis on popular legal issues and cases. And it's, you know, it's a lot of fun. I really enjoy it.

It's one of the. That's how I found you, I guess. I've been a surprise subscriber of yours for a while now and I think I started by watching some of those reaction videos that you have for, what are they called? Sovereign Citizens, which I've never even heard of before. I was like, what is this? And I was watching you react and it was just. It was just crazy. And I love Natalie because she, she's funny and entertaining and kind of keeps it real, but also really throws in there some like super good nuggets of wisdom, you know, a lot of things I didn't know before.

Oh, thank you. That's ok.

Just, just before this, I was watching your reaction video you did just recently about the the judge that yells at the 72 year old cancer patient. I was like, I was just in shock. I couldn't believe it.

Mean. Oh my goodness. I think she apologized. I think she has since apologized.

I hope so.

She was mean. That was too much.

I'm sure her publicist made her apologize all over the Internet.

Yeah, yeah, it was bad.

So I have some questions for you. The first one is about. Is really for family members.

Should.

I'll start with this one. Should family members, if their loved one who has an addiction finds themselves in some kind of legal trouble, they get arrested and they get put in jail, should the family get them out immediately? Should they leave them there for a little while? A little while? Or should they just leave them there until they figure it out and get themselves out? What's your take and opinion on that?

Sure. So of course everything I'm saying is not legal advice. This is just my opinion. And everyone's situation is different and everyone's family dynamics are different. If you have an abusive family dynamic, of course you should act accordingly and not help someone who's going to be harming you or something like that. But if, say this is your child or you're in a position where you are going to help this person anyway and you're doing whatever you're doing out of concern and love for this person, it is not a good idea to leave somebody in jail that has addictions issues. First of all, drugs are in the jails, right? All the jails have drugs. So if you are thinking they'll sit in jail and they'll dry out, that's not going to happen. They make alcohol, they smuggle in drugs, they're going to be able to find it. That's number one. Number two, addiction counseling services are available in jails, but they are sometimes overcrowded and hard to come by. Everybody wants to be in them. The waiting list is usually a mile long. And jails are inherently punitive and put them at a disadvantage to being able to fight their criminal case. If they're in jail, they're being held pretrial without a conviction. For a criminal case, it is people that are held in jail pretrial are at more of a disadvantage in communicating with their lawyer, preparing for their defense than people that are out of jail. And I have often found that I've had the best results. And even if the person is found guilty and they go to mitigation, I've had the best results. For clients who have been taken out of jail and put into an inpatient Treatment center that tends to have the best outcomes or outpatient, depending on what they're assessed to need. Even people that have been dedicated with AA and NA have had. While they're awaiting their case being resolved, have had better results either with trial or sentencing than people that just languish in jail.

That's really. I'm glad that you said that, because we actually get a lot of people in our office that sort of. Maybe they get a DUI or they get something right. And they bring themselves to us because we're a private outpatient place, and they bring themselves to us, usually on their own, voluntarily, to get help before they ever go to court. And I always, you know, tell them that that's the smartest thing to do. Right. Because they're building a track record. They're saying, hey, I know I have a problem, and I'm addressing it. You know, you didn't even have to tell me to, or whatever. And then I write them a letter saying they've been coming and, you know, that kind of stuff is that. That's what you would love that.

Judges love that. I mean, I couldn't. I can't think of a single judge that if the person is out and they take their own initiative without court order to do the things they need to do to get the help that they need, be that therapy or drug treatment or a job program, whatever it is that that's lacking in their life that could have led to them having those charges. The judges look so kindly on that, as opposed to a person who does not address the issue while the case is pending trial.

Good. I love that. Because that's the advice. I've been telling people. I feel bad.

Right.

Do it before and you show a track record. And then when you show up, you can say, I've been sober for three months or six months or ever since it happened, and I've been going every week, or that kind of thing. Okay, great. So my next question is if the family. Well, let me ask this before I move on. You said it's best to get them out of jail. What if they've been arrested, like, 10 times? Is it still best to get them out? Like getting arrested?

Yeah. And so that's the thing that I'm talking about. Like, you know, obviously, if you have a trust issue with your family member, you know, people are adults. You know, they need to communicate to their attorneys. I don't have financial resources from family members to be able to get me out of jail. Then it's our job to try to get them out on their own personal recognizance or home detention or something like that if they're. Sometimes we have clients that don't have family resources anymore because they burned that bridge so many times. So I would never advise anyone to continue to be taking advantage of someone who keeps burning the bridge for you. But do know that it's just as far as the addiction issue is concerned, that will not be addressed in jail. That's just not going to be addressed unless, you know, there's no other options for this person. The best possible option for them is to be out and to be getting treatment, but you don't have to be involved in doing that. You know, I have seen where clients have exhausted the resources through their family members. And I contact the family member and I'll say, hey, can you help with bond? Can the client stay with you if they're released? And sometimes family members will say, no, they've stolen from me too many times. They've assaulted grandma. They've done whatever. Right. And I just can't come back in here. Okay, then it's the attorney's job to pivot. Right. And find some other resources for the client, because that client is an adult, and we have to figure out other ways to. But I never pressure family members into feeling as though they have to bond their loved one out. I always call them to confirm as well, that whatever the client is telling me about, like, oh, yeah, my mom will pay for my bond, My dad will pay for it, my aunt, my uncle, you get a lot of that. And you call the person, they're like, oh, I did it before, and then they stole from me, so never again. And then we just move accordingly.

I love that, Natalie, because it fits perfectly. You know, we. It's kind of the boundary issue. I always say, like, if you're trying to make the decision about what's best for them, then this is what's best for them. But you also have to sort of weigh into your thinking there as far as your own boundaries and what's going on with you. But being able to separate. Am I doing this because I think it's what they need, or I'm doing this because it's what I need? Right. And both sides count. Right. You know, it's like you have to take all of that into the equation.

Yeah.

Now, should the family hire a private attorney? Because you were saying that you are public defender. What's the difference in the two? Should a family hire someone privately? Should they not? What's your take on that?

I think the families should do whatever they want to do. As far as resources are concerned. If you have the resources to hire a good private attorney, then I think that you should do that. And here's why. I dedicate all of my working hours and sometimes outside of my working hours, where it's necessary to my clients. Right. Like, I go super hard for my clients and I still cannot give my clients the individual attention that they need in their cases. As far as, like, hand holding and things like that. I do what is necessary to represent them. Right. I get the information that I need in order to represent them. I will negotiate for them or take their case to trial and do the research and investigation necessary. Okay? But as far as, like, sitting down and talking to mom about, like, you know, all the issues she's had with son, I'm not going to have time to do that. Right. Even with the son's permission, I just do. I. That's not fair to my other clients. Whereas a private attorney is necessarily going to have less clients. Make sure that you have, if this person is charged with more than just a dui, make sure that you have the money for experts, you have the money you need to pay for that. If you're paying for this person's representation, you have the money for them to get an investigator, you have the money for them to travel. All those type of things are either going to be in the fee agreement or they'll be excess charges that you'll have to pay for or, you know, the client for your family members. So make people think, oh, you know, like, I'll hire a private attorney and they'll be better than a public defender and they spend maybe $1,000. That is not. You're. You're not going to get good representation spending that much money. I, you know, less than even some, some people. 800, $900. This is going to be better. Absolutely. They will not be. They will not be. They have a volume practice if they can charge that little bit. And so they're going to be just as bogged down as a public offender where you won't get good representation.

So glad you you said that. There was two things that really stood up to me. One was that, which I didn't think of, but makes perfect sense, is not only are you going to be paying the lawyer for the lawyer's time, but any of the other costs that would go along with proving the case or investigation, like you said, like hiring experts or investigators, all of that has to come in too, which I didn't Think up until you just said that. But that makes perfect. And the other thing you said, which I really related to is what you were saying about the time issue. And because sometimes people ask me that a lot. It's very connected to, like, should I send my loved one to the state drug and alcohol facility or should I send them to the fancy pants treatment center? That kind of thing. And it's exactly the same. I usually say, you know, the. They have great treatment programs anywhere, and some of the state ones have more oversight, you know, than anything else. And so.

Right.

But it's a time issue. Right. They also, you know, it's like you've got such a caseload that you can't spend that hand holding time. And so I do think there's a, you know, trying to think through all that's important as well. Yeah.

And I know that, you know, you want to, like, make time and everything, but I just want to, like, go back real quick to the whole, you know, like other public defenders say what I'm saying. You know, we represent, we recognize our limitations, but we also recognize that, like, people can really hurt themselves with that stigma that they have against public defenders. Because if you think about it, especially in my state, but in many states, you know, I worked in New York for, you know, legal aid, I worked for the Innocence Project. In other states and other public defenders offices, we get resources for unlimited experts if they're needed. As long as we show that we need the expert, we're going to get the expert. We have investigators on call. You never have to pay another dollar for that. Serving subpoenas. We've got somebody to serve subpoenas for us. That's not a private attorney, doesn't just have money sitting there waiting for them to be able to do that. You are paying for all of that. And so either they're going to say upfront, it's going to be 10k, you know, or they're going to say, hey, it's 5k or 3k right now, and then you pay for everything else. And it can easily balloon up depending on the needs of the case, or it could be that the case, you know, is dismissed or pleads out or something very simple. But if you have, like a serious case on your hands and you want to hire private counsel, make sure you have the money for it.

That's a really good point. Which kind of brings me to one of my other questions, which is, should the family require that the loved one, if it's the loved one that's got themselves in Trouble to pay some or all of those legal fees, maybe even not like right this moment, but pay them back or what's your take on that?

You should make them pay you back? I think so, because here's, here's the thing. You paying for the attorney for your loved one doesn't give you more access to that attorney. It doesn't let, isn't, it doesn't allow you to dictate how that case goes. That's an attorney client relationship. It doesn't matter who pays for. Right. So I have a different perspective on the private practice area where, you know, you pay for the attorney because that's what my husband does. He's, he is a private solo practitioner and his clients pay him directly. Right. Well, his obligation is not to those people that have paid him, it's to the client and client only. It says don't give them any information. He can't. Can't give them any information. He can't give them any information without the client's express permission before giving the information. So think about that. Think about the fact that you're paying for this person to have this private relationship with someone. They may make decisions that you don't agree with in the case and that's completely fine. Ethical. That's exactly what should happen. So then that person, once they become able, they should pay you back. You know, I, I think so. Unless, you know, of course, like this is a first time situation. Maybe you're, maybe your loved one has an addition issue, but they were railroaded, you know what I'm saying? They're going to be out of commission for a while. Maybe they have some mental health issues that would make it impossible for them to be able to work and pay you back. But if we're talking about someone who, they need recovery, but otherwise they don't have a cognitive defect. This is maybe like the second or third time you've had to do this, make them pay you back. It's their case, they have to be invested in it.

That's a really good point you make about, you know, you're paying but you really have no say. Like you're literally just paying and you don't get any input into that. Do you have family members that struggle with that?

Yeah, most family members. And for me, the family members haven't even paid. But they think that because I'm his mother, I've always told him, you know, what to do. I want to be involved in this conversation. I want to look at the discovery, the evidence the state intends to introduce A trial. Like, I want to be involved in the case. And my problem with that is that ethically, once I share anything between my client and myself with another person, I've broken the attorney client relationship, and then that becomes fair game. If the prosecution wants to call the family member as a witness, that can actually happen. It has happened. So what I do is I say, I'm sorry, without the express permission of your loved one, I cannot share information with you. This incenses and upsets many family members, but unfortunately, the family member is not the one with the law degree. They're not the one that knows what it's like to appear in front of this judge. They don't know anything about the actual legal system. And even if they do, they can't be objective because this is their loved one. So. So it is because, you know, of course, I could have someone who's an attorney whose son or daughter has an addictions issue, and I represent them. I have to do everything according to what the client wants, and I have to keep the relationship confidential. And that is a consistent hardship for a lot of parents and loved ones. They have a hard time with that.

What's a kind of thing where that runs into where you get in the rock and the hard place? Like, the family wants what and the client doesn't want what is there. Is there, like, common scenarios that come up like that?

Yeah, there are. I mean, like, okay, so on the innocuous side of things, you'll get things like family members that just want you to call them and update them every single time you speak to their. Their loved one and tell them what happened in the conversation. Of course, they can talk to the client, and the client can tell them, you know, hey, this is what my lawyer advised me to do, you know, of course, I always advise my clients to keep things themselves, but they don't trust their loved ones, so they want it to come from me and not from the loved one. I can't get involved in doing that. Like, I literally cannot. It's not fair to my other clients. It's not fair to this client. I have to keep our relationship private and secret. Like I have. The client can share whatever they want, but I can't, you know, share whatever I want.

It's a time issue and a confidentiality issue. It's sort of both your handcuff with both of that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and even if he was my only client, my time would be better spent researching his case, doing investigation, reaching out to the prosecution, not doing that, you know, but on the less innocuous side, the more harmful side of things, I have had family members actively attempt to sabotage the case because they thought it was in the best interest of the loved one. So, you know, they'll do things like reach out to the prosecution and say, like try to negotiate with the prosecution on the client's behalf. That is completely harmful. They could say things that are incriminating. I have, literally, I had that maybe about two years ago, a mother that reached out to the prosecution, begging on behalf of her son, saying things that were like, yes, he sells drugs, but we are not admitting that he sells drugs. Right. That's not what we're doing. Yes, he sells drugs, but let's get him into a treatment program because he really needs treatment. Treatment. When we have a Fourth Amendment issue on in our motions hearing where we're trying to suppress the search of the evidence, and they're going to take mom's statement and they can call her as a witness and say, so tell us about the time that your son was selling drugs out of your house or research in the house and found the drugs. Tell us about that in front of the jury. So it's like, because mom wants to take matters into her own hands, she's actively sabotaging her son. But what she's trying to do is get him in a treatment program. Whereas that's not my job. My job is not to get him into a treatment program. My job is to, first and foremost, see if I can get him found not guilty, which I could have. See if I can get him found not guilty. Secondly, if I can't do that, to see the best possible sentence. So the best possible sentence is, bless you, the best possible sentence is drunk treatment, then we'll move there. But we weren't at that stage yet. And you're waiving a lot of potential arguments that we had. You know, she and I had a lot of issues because she wanted to, but she's not unique. You know, she wanted to take over because she loves her son. She wants what's best for him. Not understanding that the prosecution is not here to help your son. They put him in prison.

Right.

So, you know, you have to kind of tamp down on those natural and instincts.

Right. Well, that kind of brings me to another question, which is, do you believe in court order treatment? Like, do you think it's. It's a good thing? And if so, how or if does. Do you ask for that either as the family member or as the person who's standing there, you know, yourself Defending yourself, like, what's your thoughts on court ordered addiction treatment?

I think court ordered addiction treatment can be a good thing. I really, really do. There's two, there's two types though. One that is like a sentencing mechanism. Like, you know, as a condition of probation, you will go to drug treatment somewhere that's not supervised by us and tell us that you've done it. And if you don't do that, then you will get your backup time on probation. You also have where the person hasn't pled guilty yet, they or they have and they're put in some type of diversion program called drug treatment. Drug treatment program so that they can avoid the conviction. It makes the case take longer, but ultimately they don't even have a conviction on their record at the end of the completion of the program. Drug courts, right, can be great. They can also be very exploitative because it could be a way to where the person will ultimately otherwise be done with their case. But they're working their way through this drug court program and their addiction issue may not even rise to the level to necessitate something like that. But they need to get their drug court numbers up. So sometimes that type of stuff happens. And then there's also like long term sentencing. That is we have sentenced you to a drug treatment program, like to like a halfway house that stays state supervised or something like that. Usually for those people, those that are sentenced into long term treatment programs, they have extensive criminal records. This is like a last chance for them. If they mess this up, they're going away for like ever, right? Wow. They have, you know, those people are hyper motivated to do what they're supposed to do, right. And the. I seen a couple of them come back, but not that many people that are placed on probation. And you just go do whatever program.

And get your act together and come back and tell us you did it kind of thing.

Not as effective. Not okay. It can be effective for some people. They take advantage of it. There are some people that they get this one criminal case, you're never going to see them yet. Like they're so freaked out by the system, you're just never going to see them again. There are people that become institutionalized and they are just like in a revolving door. They just keep coming back. And then someone that is like, you know, put into a drug court program, I think those people have, even though sometimes it can be over broad and take on people that don't necessarily need it for the people that need it. I think those type of intensive programs can be Very helpful. They should just be. They only want to really use them for cases that aren't all that serious. And I think you should use them for cases that are more serious because I think they're more effective than putting the person in prison and then putting them in a inpatient long term program.

Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense to me clinically because one of the big things I think you're saying is the accountability part of it is really important as far as if it's, if it's really helpful, if it's really successful in the long run and the.

Person want to do it, they have to want it. You know, that was.

I was gonna ask because a lot of people say that's something we talk about on our channel all the time, which is, do you have to want it for yourself? Yeah, you hear that all the time. They have to want it for themselves kind of thing. So if your court ordered a treatment, does that mean you don't want it for yourself? Do you have any?

Not necessarily. By the time many people get there, when they're looking at jail or prison, a lot of times prison in my. Because I handle. So my, my area that I practice in serious felony cases, that's basically all that I had. And so my guys are looking at some serious times. They can get into a drug treatment program. Oh my goodness, they're flying. Even if that means they do three years in prison first and they're going program. They, they wish they could get something like drug court. Right. So. But you have people in the less serious cases where it's the difference between a few months in jail versus not. They're not as motivated. They're not as motivated. Not all of them, but. So you have people that are less motivated, the people in circuit court, drug court, the more serious drug court, those people I find are more motivated because the consequences are more serious.

Right. And that, that makes certain sense to me. I like what you said about they should use drug court more often for some more of the serious cases because I have that same experience. Like a lot of times people get like what they call here is like pre trial intervention stuff, stuff like that. But it usually is on like the first time offense or something pretty minor. But you're right. I can kind of follow what you're saying as far as the motivation and the success of outcomes. Okay, let me look at my list of questions here because I don't want to get any. Do you think being in jail is ever good for someone's recovery? No, no, no.

I Don't I just. Don't I. Because I don't know, did I say it here when we were talking earlier that drugs are in jail? I said it here.

Drugs are in jail. Okay?

That's just the reality. And you know, people might work the programs in order to get good time credit off, but those are people that would have been motivated outside of jail, I think to be, get to get clean anyway. The. So to me, the purpose that jail in prison really, because my people are going to prison, the purpose that jail and prison really serves is like you did something bad and you need to be punished for it.

Yeah, it's punishment.

Yeah, it's punishment. Treatment does not really happen. There are treatment programs and I'm happy with my clients avail themselves of the programs. But you know, I. So many, so many clients that I've had return to the community and go back to using. I just don't think it's an effective deterrent. And again, I can understand why family members might say, I've done everything I can, I'm giving up. Don't put yourself in an abusive relationship with your loved one. That's not good. But what I'm saying, as far as the individual is concerned, that has to come from within. And putting someone in prison with the same access to things and then putting them back out onto the street where they haven't learned how to be sober in real life. Right. Like, because even if you learn how to be sober in prison, you don't know how to be sober outside.

Right.

So much relapse, so much.

Right. I say that same thing a lot about sending family members always want their loved one to go away to like really long term, three months, six months, one year programs. And I'm not opposed to that at all. But it's different being sober in a locked up treatment facility or in jail than it is in real life. We run into that all the time.

Right. And the inpatient treatment programs are far and beyond better than what they have at the jail, you know, of course, but like if the person can be supervised in the community and receive the help that they need, I think that that's better. But, but obviously maybe the person really needs to get away from all of the temptation. Doing that in prison, first of all doesn't accomplish that goal because you're not getting away from it, you're there. But let's say that you take it away. There's nothing more, not like real life than prison and jail. It's such a different place than the real world that people have to really learn how to live outside without using, you know. Right.

And that, that just makes sense. And then, I mean, this gets into like a bigger, more almost philosophical political question. But after you put someone that has addiction in jail and they have this criminal record, then they have less of a chance of being able to be successful in life when they get back out. Because then they, you know, you have the whole, do I put on my job application? You know, then it gets really complicated.

Yeah.

People feel forced back into it.

Yeah. So that's, that's another thing is that there's like a people a lot of the times, people that say things like, oh, he needs to go sit in there. You know, I get that with like my. I have clients that are in their later teens, like 18, 19, you know, or charges an adult and they're 17 or something like that. But I usually just handle 18 and up 18 to infinity. Right. And when I get those, like teenage clients, you know, can tell that it's mom's first go around so she thinks it's, you know, scared straight time and he needs to sit in there so he can learn his lesson. I could not disagree with that more. Your child is going to become traumatized and institutionalized. Only thing that you're not going to learn how not to commit crimes outside or how not to run into the same trouble outside. What they're going to learn is how to survive inside. They are. They are easy pickings. They are vulnerable. They are on the bottom of the totem pole and they have access to all the same bad stuff that they had, but with no route of escape. Right. So that's what you're exposing your child to. You know, and just the unsanitary nature of a jail, the lack of physical privacy, all of those things to a developing brain is what you think you're going to scare your child straight with. And it literally does not work.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan. I don't, I don't like scared straight in any tactic. You know, I say don't bring out your pictures of the lungs and all the. It doesn't, it doesn't work. Doesn't work.

Right.

Because the nature of addiction is even, you know, even if it does scare them and they don't want that again, it's always, well, I'll do it this way and that won't happen. It's always a. Let me find the loophole here. Yeah, I don't get caught or I don't. Just don't do with this person anymore. I'll. This drug and not that drug. That's just the nature of addiction is.

Wow. No, really, I, you know, when it comes to like recidivism, you get a lot of people returning because they thought that if they commit the same crime but in a different way they wouldn't get caught.

Yeah.

You didn't learn in jail or prison not to commit the crime. You learned how to be more sneaky about it.

Right, right.

Yeah.

So it just doesn't work for that reason.

Yeah.

Let me see here. Oh, here's a good one. I think I, based on what you've said, I think I, I probably know the answer. But should family members ever turn their loved one in either like try to get their loved one arrested or like if, maybe if they're on probation, call the probation officer or something like that. Do you think going over should do that?

Do not do that. My God, please don't do that. Please don't do that. The jail and the prison system and the criminal legal system do not care about your loved one. They don't care about your loved one trying to recover. They want a conviction and they want jail time. It's your client, it's your loved one's defense attorney who is then going to try and, you know, persuade the judge to put them in treatment. But usually that's not even what the prosecution, that's what we're begging for because we have no other choice. And it's a bargaining chip for the prosecution. There are some prosecutors who are very much like recovery minded and they care about that type of stuff, but let it be over a certain amount of drugs and they think, oh, this person could possibly be selling as well as using. And now you're looking at like drug trafficking charges, felony charges, and being overcharged for something that was originally just an addictions issue. I cannot tell you how many moms and dads have called me after their son or daughter has been in jail pre trial for over a year apologizing because they called the police on them. Now don't let anybody harm you. Like if someone's, if you have a loved one in your house that's like attacking you or assaulting you obviously seek help. Right? Like call.

Right.

Reporting someone to the police for drug possession is just not the way to go. Get them into treatment, kick them out. Do not call the police on them. Don't do that. Like you, you are really seriously. And okay. And then you'll, you'll be mad five years from now when they can't find a drug A job because they have possession with intent to distribute conviction on their record, because maybe they got the conviction in order to avoid going to jail any further or something like that, but now they can't find a job. So what was. What was the point of that? Now you can't get rid of them because they can't work. You know, so it's just like, I. I know that, you know, my perspective is from a defense attorney, but I can tell you right now that, you know, there are prosecutors out there that have children with addictions issues or wives or husbands with addictions issues. They're not calling the police on them. Wonder why that is. And it's not because, like, oh, they're shady or something. It's because they know that the outcome is not going to be treatment. Right. It's going to be worsening whatever is causing the underlying issue.

Right. And I think what about, you know, there are some parents and spouses, parents a lot, though, who their kid or whoever it is, is using so much drugs, like, they're literally scared every single day that that's the last time they're going to see their kid or that their loved one is going to be in a car wreck and kill themselves or someone else. I mean, like, serious, really far using. And I've heard a lot of family members say, you know, when their loved one got arrested and was in jail for a few nights, it was like the only night they slept because they knew they were at least safe and okay. And I. That's really hard sometimes for family members to say out loud because they feel so guilty about that. But I can also understand that as well.

Yeah, I completely understand that. I completely understand that. I completely empathize and sympathize because I've had professional and personal experience with these issues. So I completely get it. I am telling you that addicted people in jail are very, very vulnerable. Very, very vulnerable while they're in jail. People overdose in jail, people die in jail from the effects of not getting their fix. People have seizures and stuff like that. So it's just really not the best way to go. You can get them into medical treatment if you can get them into the hospital, anything but taking them to jail. And I know it's hard because the resources in this country are just so limited. They're so limited. But please try not to do that.

And I'll just add one more thing on top of what. What Natalie's saying, and this is more from the therapeutic end of things, is like, when family members ask me that I'M like, if you do decide to get your loved one arrested, you had better make 1000% sure that they never found out it was you. Because if. If your loved one finds out, you, they will for sure not what learn whatever lesson it is that you're trying to get them to learn. They will literally have that resentment and hold that grudge against you and hold that for the rest of eternity. Like, it's the biggest block to recovery. Because then it's, I can't believe you did this to me. Like, it's all the person can think about. How could you do this to me? And it gets in the way of learning whatever lesson it is that you're trying to get them to learn.

Oh, yeah. You become. Instead of the drug being the issue, you're the issue.

Exactly. Which we talk about a lot is this, like, you can get in the way. You can be a. Serve as a distraction almost from the person learning their. Their lesson.

Right. I know I'm not a parent, so, like, I'm. I mean, I'm a step parent, but I'm not a biological mother of a child that I see all the time. Right. So, of course I can never know what it's truly like to give birth to someone or raise someone and then see them in this horrible situation. I'm just telling you that, like, putting someone in jail doesn't work from the perspective of someone who represents those people. Because a lot of the time I get that phone call about 30 days in. How do we get my loved one out? How do we get them out? You know, I called the police because I wanted to help them. I wanted to stop the spiral. But now they can't come home because they had so many drugs on them. This is, you know, however many times. And the judge said they weren't going to release them. And now it doesn't matter how many letters I write, the judge is not releasing them. I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do now. I did my best. I did my motion to for a bond review, and the judge said, no, this person's not getting out. So you wanted them to dry out for three days. That could turn into a year more, depending on what the facts of the case are.

Because you set. You set the ball in motion. And once you set it in motion, you can do it, right?

It's unlike taking someone to treatment where it's like, you kind of understand, like, there's like a regimental program. You do so many days. You do this, you do that. You know what? I'm saying, or even if it's outpatient, whatever, you do the program, right? Jail is not a program. You know, you should get all these continuances and. Because, like, think about. Think about the parents who called the police on their clients in 20. Their. Their loved ones in 2019 because the loved one had problems, and they're still sitting in jail right now in 2022 because of COVID Right. The cases have been continued a whole bunch of times while people have been held without a trial. Like, that is a thing that's happening all over the country. People with just addictions issues sitting in jail without a conviction because they had a lot of drugs on them, and maybe they had a gun, too, or something like that. You know, you just never know. So it's just once they get. Once the system gets its hooks into that person, it's really, really hard to get it out. And so just be cognizant of that. Maybe, maybe you had it. Maybe this is your last straw. Maybe you've heard everything I said. And you said, you know what? Cost benefit analysis. I'd rather them be in jail. Okay, But I'm just telling you that don't call us six months later asking why we haven't gotten them out of.

Jail, why haven't fixed it. Right?

Yeah. Like, it's too late now.

You know, now a lot of times I'll tell families this, and if you disagree, you can totally. You can completely. That. But when families, if their loved one's been arrested and they're in jail, not that they called, they just got themselves arrested or whatever, and they'll say, should I go get them? I'll usually tell them that they need to talk to the person. And. And if the. And say, I will come get you if you will go directly to treatment.

So what do you mean? Like, they're getting out of jail and they need a ride? Is that, you know. Is that what, you know?

Like. Like, I will come help you. Like, I'll pay the bond or hire a lawyer, help you get out of jail, but only if you go directly to a treatment program.

I don't think anything is wrong with that. Like I said, it's just about open communication with the client and the attorney. So from an attorney's perspective, if my client is like, well, they probably won't say they said to go to treatment, or else they weren't gonna bomb me out. But to say they're not gonna bomb me out. Okay, we'll have to find something else, you know what I'm saying? So as an attorney, as far as I'm concerned, as long as I know that you're not an avenue for release, that the person's not getting treatment, it's okay. Okay, it's fine. And then maybe that might be something that you communicate to us. You know what I'm saying? Cause, like, sometimes that type of stuff is super helpful. If the loved one calls us and says, hey, you know, I want to bond John Doe out, but I'm not going to do it unless I know he's going to go directly to treatment, then I'm a call client. I'm a cajole them. I'm going to say, hey, go to treatment. It's good for sentencing. It's good for the court to see that. It's good for the prosecution to see that maybe they'll give you a really good plea offer if they see that you're getting help and you'll be out of jail. Go to treatment. You know that pressure coming from both. And then ultimately, if the client says, no, I don't want treatment, okay, then I have to follow a motion to get you out some other way. But I tried, you know, so that. That would be a good way to try to work with the attorney to help the client out.

And just. I want to make sure the families know a couple things, because one of the things I know families are hearing you say is it's not good to leave them in jail. But I want you to pay attention to what Natalie said, which is super key when you're making a decision. Should I get my loved one arrested? Should I leave them in jail? And you're trying to decide what's best for them. No, it is not best for them to be in jail. But I need you guys to really differentiate the difference. If and Natalie said this, if. If your loved one's at home and they are abusing you and they are putting you or someone else in the house in jeopardy, you have to take care of safety first.

Okay?

That has to be your main goal at that point. You have to do what you need to do to keep yourself or anyone else in the house safe. That becomes priority.

Oh, yes, I. I said that at the beginning, but maybe people join, like, afterwards.

You did say that. I just want to make sure these families hear this because they might miss that.

Please do not mistake me when I say to take care of yourselves. Be careful for your. You know, sometimes you have, like, younger kids at home or elderly parents or something like that. Be careful. You know, Be careful. Like, I'm not saying for anyone to put themselves in danger. I'm just saying that in my hypothetical situation, you don't believe that this person is a danger to you? If you were to get them out of jail, then. No, I don't think it's a good idea to leave the person in jail if you think that person is going to be a danger to you. You know, when the attorney calls you and say, hey, are you going to pay the bond? You can tell us, no. And we have dealt with that conversation before. Go back to the client and say, mom's not going to do it this time. What's the next step? What do we have to do? You know, we have other avenues to try. At least it makes it harder, but we have to try. So, no, don't feel. Don't feel obligated to put yourself in danger ever.

Thank you. I'm glad you said. I know you said that earlier. I'm just really. Because I know a lot of families let some bad things happen.

Yeah.

We are right at 7, and I know Natalie has to be on her own Live at 7, so we thank you so, so much. You've been super, super helpful. If you guys want to learn more from Natalie, I have put. If you're watching on YouTube, I'll put the link in the description, but you can find her on YouTube @ Natalie, lawyer chick. And I think you'll learn a lot more from her. And she's pretty funny and entertaining. Way more fun and entertaining than me. So you guys check her.

Out. You're so sweet. No, you're so kind. Thank you so much for this invitation. I would also love to have you on my channel. That way everyone can see your wonderful channel. And I'm gonna go. I hate to run, but I'm gonna go stream on my channel right now about different murder trials in Milwaukee. It was in Wisconsin. Not with Milwaukee, but in Wisconsin. So. Okay.

Thanks. Thank you so.

Much. Thank you.