Fixing Addiction| Stop Wasting Time, Money, and Lives... This Does NOT Work!

So today we're going to be looking at the topic of whether or not consequences are an effective cure or fix for addiction. And in order to take a look at that topic, we have a special guest with us here, Kyle from Sober Dog. He has a YouTube channel called Sober Dogs and I've put the link in the description for you to check him out. But he's got some personal experience with it. Kyle's had pretty much every consequence that a person can have and so he's our expert witness today on whether or not what was effective, what wasn't effective, and he's going to give us his, his viewpoint on that. So Kyle, if you would just introduce yourself a little bit, tell us just a tiny bit about your channel and then we'll get into your, your expert testimony here.

Okay, well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And yeah, I started the channel Sober Dogs a couple years ago and you know, the, the name being, combining my sobriety and, you know, dogs, animals. I'm a huge animal lover. My dogs have always been a big part of my recovery. And you know, addiction led me to some terrible places. I hid behind my past for a while. I was just scared to talk about it. So the channel and you know, I do some stuff with writing on the website to help me kind of get it all out there. And that not only helped myself kind of come to terms with everything and cope with it, but hopefully others could see it and you know, relate and connect, which has been the experience. So it's kind of just grown from there and it's been an awesome, awesome couple years.

Well, we're glad you're doing this and you're putting some really good information and messaging out. Particularly this month you're focusing on being in prison and particularly solitary confinement. Right. Some first hand personal experience with that.

Yeah. Well, November has been a historically tough month for me. So I had two relapses during my recovery, both of them Thanksgiving weekend. And that I kind of attribute it to a combination of, you know, years back, like maybe when I was like 14 or 15, the first thing I ever got diagnosed with was seasonal effect disorder, affective disorder with the, you know, just so dark and dull at 4pm here in New York. And you know, I just kind of shut down sometimes at that, at that hour. So that's something I've dealt with, you know, most of my adult life. And then on top of that, I had a couple of really terrible Novembers in prison. The one specifically I'm kind of focusing on my channel is I Got out of solitary the first week in November. This would have been 2015. And I didn't even last three weeks at the new prison they sent me to in general population. Got sent right back to solitary. The first time I did five months. The second time I got sentenced to five months. And it was just this culmination of like, I can't. Just the hopelessness of being in there and going right back.

Right. Just despair. That's what I hear when I listen to you talk about on your channel.

Absolutely. That's the best word to describe it. It was just brutal. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of like, in my mind, some of the worst consequences. You know, extreme isolation like that for me is hell on earth. I can't think of anything worse.

Right. And so I think this ties in really well, Kyle, with the fact just this past week, week and a half ago, I think, or so the state of Oregon decriminalized hard drugs use, or I guess if you get caught with it or whatever. And so a lot of people, I don't know if you know what that means. It doesn't really make it legal, but if you get caught with it or if you have paraphernalia, it's not necessarily illegal and it won't throw you in jail. And this past week in the group I run, people were asking me what I thought about it. And I think they thought I was gonna say, you know, that's terrible, but I have mixed feelings about it. But I definitely don't think it's the worst, most horrible thing either, because I personally don't think consequences cure addiction. I've said that for a long time. A lot of people that watch our channel are family members. I don't think the families should necessarily interfere with a lot of the consequences, but I don't think that they should feel like they have to do a lot of punishing or forcing of consequences either. It almost happens itself. You don't have to help it along is what I say. And putting people. That's what I want to hear from you about. You know, I've talked to people. People lose their lives, people die. People overdose and come back and go right back out and use. People lose their children, People lose their freedom. People lose their careers, People lose their dignity. They lose everything and they keep using. So clearly the evidence shows that that is not the fix for this problem.

Yeah.

So it's a complicated topic. So I was gonna hear what you think about that. What are the consequences you had, like, did you have consequences before going to prison. What impact did that have? And then yours seemed to progressively got worse and worse and worse. And how did that impact your addiction?

Sure. As far as the decriminalization, I'm the same way. I have mixed feelings. I think it's a good step forward. I've done some research in the past on, like, the Amsterdam effect and how it spikes for like, 10, 12 years, but then there's a steady decline consistently after that. So that's a good thing. But I would worry that people from other states would come there and kind of use it as like a, you know, a free haven. Kind of like we used to do in New York when we were 19, we'd all go to Canada and drink, because that would be one thing I'd worry about. And also something I even saw when I was in jail is drug dealers who got caught with, like, I'd say medium amounts of drugs. And they completely, you know, went right to their lawyer. Hey, make sure you tell them, I'm an addict, I'm an addict, I'm an addict. And then they got a very minimal sentence because that when they never use drugs in their life. Okay, would be a couple things I'd worry about. But in general, I think it's a good thing because. Yeah, the consequences. You know, you. We talked earlier in the week about some stuff we were going to talk about today, and I've been thinking about this all week with the consequences and the physical consequences of everything that happened with, you know, prior to addiction, Getting kicked out of the house, living in the car, you know, jail. I'm sorry, not prior to addiction, prior to prison. None of it was like, okay, this is it. I'm gonna change because of that. But at the same time, all of it together kind of created this level of despair that did push me at that final point in the direction of. It is more pain to go to where I just came from than to try something different. So I don't have a yes or no answer. It's like the consequences all added up. And then when I finally got to that point where I was just against the wall, some would call it a rock bottom. It was like I was so willing to try anything new that things started to finally click in my brain and I accepted a different way, if that makes sense.

Right. So it's like. It's that gray area of. That's kind of where I tell families. It's like, you don't interfere with the consequences. But probably what might be helpful is to sort of differentiate between punishment and consequences. And I do have some videos on my channel where I talk about this when it comes to boundaries, because people often, they use this word consequences, and they use it across the board, but you really got to differentiate, you know, consequences is what naturally happens when the person does what they're doing. You know, if they, if somebody doesn't go to school and they flunk out, they flunk out. That's the consequence. If they flunk math and you bring them home and you ground them from their Xbox, then that is a punishment, even though most of the time people use the word consequences. So consequences, I think, are helpful to get a person to start to really think punishment almost can go the opposite way. And I think that's some of what you're talking about in the prison system and especially in the solitary confinement, that for sure is definitely punishment.

Yeah, well, it was like, you know. Exactly. You said it perfect. Prison was the consequence. And I can't say that it was a extreme consequence. You know, unfortunately, I wasn't doing the right thing even in prison. But with that being said, I got sent to solitary every time. I went five times, all five times were for non violent drug offenses, failing drug tests, and, you know, having drugs on me, things like that. And every single time I went there, it just, it made any and every mental health problem substantially worse. You lose your grips on reality. And the second I would get out and go to a new jail, I mean, I was literally sitting on my bed, like, shaking and clinging. There was guys in the bathroom at this new jail, new prison, smoking weed. And I could have just walked in there and hey, can I get in? They would have said, sure. I'm sitting there, I'm trying to cope. I'm basically suicidal. I just did five months in solitary. But I know if I go do that thing and I get called for a drug test tomorrow, I go right back. That was a little bit of a deterrent mentally, but in the end, it didn't do anything because I was so mentally distraught. The only thing I knew how to do was more drugs to cope, which I did. Landed me right back. And all said and done, I describe solitary by far as the worst hell on earth I've ever experienced. And after my last day in there, it still wasn't. I didn't walk out and say, okay, I'm never doing drugs, so I'm never going back. No, I did drugs. I needed something to cope with. The last year I spent hidden in a cell.

Right. It brings you to a point that at that point you're More likely to use, because you almost have to use at that point. Yeah, exactly.

You said it perfect. There's just so much, you know, so much mental disaster going on. And I had no. No proper coaching or programs or any therapy going on to kind of guide me away from the drugs and to learn to cope with it in a healthy way. And I love what you, you know, we talked about the other day and then even today of like, the difference between the punishment and the consequences, because that's so true. The consequences will happen. But I know for my family and for. For a ton of families out there to say, like, if your kid doesn't go to school, well, then let them fail. It is so hard for a parent to just do that. You know, I. I still have a couple family members who totally get that now and have went to programs and other ones who will not accept that, you know, what do you mean? You help out your child no matter what. You do everything you can to help them. And it's.

And I think that that's a good point is because I'm not saying give up on your child. I'm saying this is the way you help them. You help them see the link between their behavior and their choices and the consequence you're not. And the whole time you do that in our philosophy is you're empathetic about it, you're kind about it, you're not in their face about it. And that, that really, like, on a biological level activates a person's learning center of their brain. When you're coming at them and you're attacking them, it makes people defensive and it literally blocks the thinking. Thinking part of the brain. So even on just like a brain level, it doesn't work. Yet we continue to do things that history shows doesn't work, that research shows it doesn't work, that your own personal experience as a. Either person in recovery or a family member, it doesn't work. But we can't keep doing it. And a lot of times, because we get messages that says, this is what you're supposed to do.

Yeah, that's very true. And like we. We were talking about the other day or earlier, you know, so before jail and all that, my parents kicked me out of the house because they just. They had enough. And I don't blame them because I was. My behavior started to just destroy their lives between the stealing and the lying. And I wasn't just like, you know, coming in quietly doing my thing and leaving. I was just destroying their lives. And five days later is when I got arrested. So when I look at some of the philosophy of I'm big into 12 steps, it has helped save my life. But they're very firm on rock bottom. I thought about that a little bit as, like, a partial rock bottom. But then the more I look into it and how we, you know, we were talking, it wasn't really. My addiction actually got worse that day. In the next five days, I went, like, on a tornado. And the only reason it stopped is outside forces or consequences. The police, the system stopped me physically, forcefully. You know, it wasn't like a light went off and that changed everything or a rock bottom. So that's a deeper way to look at it, with the consequences. Very true.

It's hard. I think it's hard, especially for families to understand. But I say it's the person's literally, like, under anesthesia. And so if you think about, like, the way I say it, sometimes it's like if you go to the dentist, right, and they put you under anesthesia, they can literally be drilling in your face, right? Blood burning everywhere, like the worst thing imaginable. But you're laying there like, you good, Amber? So you're waiting on the person to feel this pain that they literally cannot feel feel because they're under this anesthesia. And the definition of addiction is someone continues to do something despite consequences. Yet somewhere in our head, we think, if I'm tough enough, hold the line, you know, if I do these things that they're. It's going to click. And sometimes it. Sometimes some things will make you think, like, maybe I don't want to do this. But even that thought of, like, I'm tired of this. I don't want to do this anymore. That thought by itself isn't enough to get you sober and is definitely not enough to keep you sober.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure.

It.

And it's hard to define, you know, that window of. I could see all these different times during addiction where there was a window of, you know, where I was willing to go somewhere, go to a rehab, try something. And they were rare and small.

But.

When they were and when I even tried to do some things, there's a lot of, you know, boundaries to getting there, especially with, you know, insurances and different things like that and trying to get a bed in a rehab that it almost makes it so much harder because I'm at this little bit of a clear mind for I don't know how long. It could be five minutes or maybe an hour. But then withdrawal is going to kick in very Soon. And my only cure for that at this point is more drugs. And as soon as I do that, I'm kind of jumping right back into the cycle. And then like, that's when you say, like, I'm under the anesthesia. I'm not listening or paying attention to anything else at that point. It's just this blinders of more drugs. I don't know how we could hit people in those windows. You know, I think that would maybe help because there's all these seeds that were planted in the past that definitely helped. I think people see it as a failure. Like somebody went to rehab, they came out and they used. Well, that rehab sucks. Or they. It doesn't work. Definitely not. There's things I've learned all these different places. I might not have stayed sober right after, but that stuff has helped me in the future. And all those seeds at some point culminated to, you know, get the sobriety kicking and hopefully be permanent, you know. But that's a day by day thing, right?

I like, that's such a good message, Kyle. Because people think, oh, I did that before, it didn't work. Or, you know, that was a failure. Treatment doesn't work on me. Or, you know, you think that about your loved one. They went five times. But it's a process. And each one of those little steps builds onto the next, onto the next. And I also love what you're saying about these windows because I feel like that's the, that's the key. I do feel like consequences can create a window. Sometimes, however, punishment really never creates a window. It has to be a consequence that someone really can clearly see is a direct effect of their choice and their action. Not because you're mean to them, not because you're unfair to them, not because you're a big jerk ball that blocks it. Consequence can create a window, but you have to be ready for that window and make fast moves. You know, that's what we train families to do. Right? Like, how do you recognize it? And you have to have a plan in place. Like sitting on go waiting and make moves. Have the duffel bag packed. Whatever it is that needs to happen, you got to be ready. Because like, I love what you're saying. Kyle's like, it can last five minutes, one hour maximum. I've ever seen it last is like a couple days. That's max.

Yeah.

And you can't put it together that fast. If you miss the window, you're done. You gotta wait for the next one.

Yeah. And with. With opioids or heroin specifically, I think it would be unbelievably rare to be a couple day window just because of the withdrawal. It's usually going to be hours max. There's, there's a gentleman in Rochester and not for profit program that he's, he prides himself and one of the things he says now he's in recovery too, but he's been helping for years is I can get somebody placed in three hours in a rehab. And that's awesome because it used to be like a four or five day thing if everything worked out. I think there's a lot of people helping to do great things like that. But yeah, you're so right. Have that plan. Have that window or have the, the plan for when that window hits. I'm trying to like think of different scenarios that happened that were a punishment and how I felt after and what, what really, you know, and just like you said, it was anytime I was punished, whether it was my parents or school, that blockade goes right up. Yeah, just, it's. I'm so defensive. It's like, yeah, you're the big authority me, so anything you're saying is not resonating with me. So screw, you know, screw you, so to speak. I'll do what I gotta do to get through it. But like when I got arrested, it was my fault. You know, the cop didn't do anything, the guard didn't do anything, the judge didn't do anything. I did it. So I sat there looking up in the cell having no one to blame but myself. And that is a totally different mindset than, you know, go to your room, you're grounded and we're taking the car. So that's a great point. How you explain that to parents. Yeah, I just was thinking about that. It's a great point.

Yeah. Even, you know, spouses or siblings, you know, we want to, we want to, we want the person to wake up. So we come at them, we try to expediate the process, I think, and we just sort of start trying to bash it in. But the harder you try to push, the thicker the wall is. You know, you're just not going to get in there like that. And so it's this real delicate balance of things it takes to really help someone turn the corner. Can you tell us a little bit about when you turn the corner, how that happened, what it took, all that kind of stuff.

Sure. So like we just said a minute ago, there was all these different areas that, you know, different times during addiction that were, I don't know the exact word to Put it. Those windows, these many rock bottoms for. For, you know, the people that subscribe to that. And they all kind of culminated when I got. I got out of prison and I got. I tried to stay sober, but I tried to do it totally my way, which was white knuckling and sitting, you know, just didn't work. Again, I wasn't doing anything healthy to stay sober. I just assumed there was this magic light. The day I got out of prison, it would make me a different person. Didn't come. And so I got. I started using again. I. My parole officer said, if you tell me the truth, I won't violate you. So I went to him one day and I said, I've been using. I'm telling you the truth. And he was a very. He was a very good. You know, he's a good guy. So he asked me to lift up my. My sleeves. So I do, and he looks at my arms. He comes back a minute later. He violated me. And I'm MF and him. You lied to me. He told me if I tell you the truth, this and that. He ended up telling me later. I had a guy the week before that came in, same scenario. I let him go because he told me the truth. I had to go get his ankle bracelet at the morgue this weekend. I don't want that to happen to you. Because he saw the marks in my arms. I didn't realize that till later, but anyway, so I'm sitting in the jail, you know, know what's gonna happen to me? And I was talking on the phone with my parents, and the combination of being back in there the last, like, two, three months, tornado of addiction. And then the past, like, four years, tornado of solitary in prison, all kind of culminated with this phone call. And I never heard my parents talk this way. Their tone was. Was totally different. No anger, no. No accusations. Just pure. I don't want to say despair, but like, you know, it was almost like, we know you're gonna be dead in a couple weeks, the way you're going. So we're kind of talking to our dead son here. Almost like they were just so. Their lives, you know, they couldn't mentally comprehend it. In that phone call and everything, I was just like, I can't do this. I. I can't. I gotta try something different. The fun left years prior. You know, it's not fun anymore at all. And they ended up sentencing me to Willard, which is like a boot camp camp type thing, but, you know, so they say it's like army boot camp but you know, at an army boot camp, when they do all the like, you know, training with the guns and stuff, they replace that with, you know, 12 step meetings and rehab stuff. That was the best thing they could have done for me during that couple month period because it was like my life was a tornado. Now I'm somewhere where somebody's telling you what to do every second of the day and I don't know, all that culminated when I got out. I wanted to be different. I wanted to try something different. I did not want to go back to that misery and all that. I guess you could say it's a rock bottom, a window, however you want to put it. But all that was the changing point for me.

Something about the way they came at you got through. Right. It got through the wall and it's sunk in and it made you open to something else. And then that combined with getting you to the right place, people, whatever. Yeah. When it lines up like that, then you can get. You can get a miracle.

Exactly. That's the best way to put it.

It's a miracle.

You know, I remember so many guys I was with. You know, it's called Willard, that boot camp place. And you get an option. Willard is a 97 day program with your waiting time. It usually ends up being like five or six months. But the day you walk in, it's 97 days till completion. And they give you the option of doing that or doing 12 months in a regular prison where you kind of can do what you want all day. You go to a program and then you go outside and you can lift weights or whatever. So many guys choose the 12 months because they hate, you know, you got to be up at 5:30, somebody telling, you know, get out, give me push ups for Jerry, hold you close, blah, blah, blah. And to me, that was awesome. I loved it. Like my life prior to that was just this tornado of trying to find drugs 17 hours a day. You know, all the disaster that comes with that to like, I didn't have to think for a minute. And it kind of was like, okay, I don't mind the push ups and stuff. I like working out. And then all that rehab they put in there, my mind was like totally clear and open because I had nothing else to think about. No bills, no. So it was very receptive. And the last couple weeks of that program, they had some guys from AA come in and speak with us. And one of the guys that was speaking, who I know very well to this day, see him all the time, he was at that program about a decade prior. And him telling his story really connected with me, too. It was like I finally. I saw somebody who was sitting where I was, who got out and looks happy. And that was a big part of it, too. Like, I really was like, somebody can do this. And I was always scared that what the heck would I do without drugs and alcohol? Life would be miserable. And I see this guy smiling, you know, a decade sober, and I'm like, okay, maybe that it isn't just this miserable life. It has not been miserable or dull or boring at all.

Right. It's hard to convince people of that, especially when they're in the middle of it. Right. Because it just. I think the idea of what being sober feels like is really in their mind. They think about that, and it's really what being withdrawal feels like. They don't understand that there's this part past that. Right. And it's hard to. It's hard to get people to see past that. So it's so important to be able to see people. It gives you hope. Like, okay, maybe it's not that bad.

Yeah. And I think if you. If you're trying to, you know, catch somebody in the beginning, it's very hard because, like, if you would have came to me in college and said any of that stuff we just talked about, I'm still having a little bit of fun. Like, I'm. Even though I'm drinking more than everybody else, I'm using drugs in the side, and I'm kind of worse than everyone around me. I still was having a little bit of fun partying. So it would have been impossible to convince me that there was a life outside of drugs and alcohol. Like, what am I gonna do every day? What do I do on Sunday, football day? What do I do at night? How do I. You know? But like we talked about, as it progressed, the fun totally stopped. There was no fun at all.

Right. It does have to. I call it the tipping point. You know, it's what you're talking about. There is a time when it works for you, right? When it's working. And then it begins to progressively not work more and more and more. And so the scale does have to tip. You do have to allow the consequences, but it's important to really differentiate between consequences and punishment. And it's also important that the consequences by themselves, don't fix the problem. They can create a window of willingness sometimes. But something else has to come into play. Because even if you decide you want to get better, like you said when you got out of prison the first time and you want to be better. It doesn't fix it. Right. It doesn't make it go away. So there's several little factors that have to come into place for all this to work together. We're going to take some questions if you have some questions. So many of you have joined us. I see you there. Hey, Tap and Paige and purple flower and Kathy and Jeff. Put some questions or comments if you want to ask Kyle, he says he's an open book. I've listened to his videos. He's pretty much open book. I feel like you can ask him whatever you want to.

Absolutely. I love that, by the way, the tipping point. That's so true. Because people try to create that tipping point, but you can't. It's going to happen naturally. Unfortunately for some people it's 20 years, others it's two. But it's gotta happen.

I think while people are sort of thinking through that, putting some questions or comments up, I did want to touch a little bit on the solitary issue because I know you've been focusing on that on your channel. And to me, just hearing you talk about it really just validates. Like to me, the cure for addiction is connection, meaning and purpose. And if there's anything that you could possibly do to completely withhold any scrimp of connection meaning, purpose, it would beat those ones all day. So it's like, could you do something more opposite? The worst possible thing? It's definitely not going to fix addiction. Talk to us about that.

Exactly. So true. And you know, the only time I ever say the drugs saved my life when I was on my second to last solitary time, there a gentleman on that was in a cell about five or six cells down from me, spoke Spanish and he, I guess for like two months he had all these drugs he was trying to get rid of. But he speaks Spanish. I don't speak Spanish. He couldn't get rid of him. So finally one day somebody's like, you know, s Kyle on the end, he gets high. Like I was the guy that got high.

He loves drugs. Yeah, yeah.

Well, by this point, the guy was so desperate, he just got rid of everything to me. And those drugs allowed me for that last month to actually cope. I was going to attempt suicide again in there. So it actually kind of saved my life. But the whole point behind it was all of it, even with or without the drugs, is just this pure taking all connection away. You know, we would like the guard would come by to give you your sheets or whatever your. Your meals or you know, once a week you get to exchange your books, and there's a couple, you know, cool guards. I'd be like, what's going on in the world? Like, what happened? You know? And they'd be like, oh, I remember like David Bowie or somebody died when I was in there. Michael Jackson or somebody. And they were like, oh, really? Like, what's going on? Like, you just are desperate, you know, for some connection, and it's not there. And that just destroys the brain. And, you know, I've been reading up on it too, and there's a big part of solitary that says it can create, like, a lot of impulse control problems. I can't think of something possibly worse for a person in recovery than more damage to the frontal lobe and impulse, like, seconds when an urge hits. If you could, like, call a friend in the program, it could save your life versus I want to get hot. Let's go. That destroys it more. And it's like, exactly. Nothing could be a worse punishment, consequence, whatever you want to call it a punishment than solitary for people.

To me, it's like. It's kind of like we're talking about the scale tipping. It's like, you know, the pros and cons have to sort of tip, you know, the cons have to outweigh the pros. But when you get into solitary confinement, it tips so far that life is only better if you use. So you really. It almost turns it upside down.

Yeah, that's a great analogy, because that's exactly it. There was no outside thing that I wanted more than drugs because that's all that, you know, could help. And even, like the day walking out. The first time I ended up doing 100, they sentenced me to five months. I got 27 days cut off for good behavior and for a mental health time cut, ironically, you know, they're putting people in there with diagnosed prior mental health problems for nonviolent infractions. And then they come and mental health, like, we're gonna give you 23 days off, 27 days off. Oh, great. So my five months is down to four months and three days. Thanks for the, you know, the big boost. But walking out of there was like, the sounds, the lights, everything is foreign, you know, walking out in the sun. I remember I stood there like this, and the guards like, come on, we got to get moving. I just wanted to feel the sun on my face. You know, all these things. Sensory deprivation is so terrible for. For people. In any case, I just. I can't see how it's beneficial.

Almost.

In Any case, I, I guess if you got to separate somebody who stabbed somebody else who's extremely violent, sure. But even that guy, if you throw him in there for a couple years, when he gets out or even months, his anger is going to be worse. You know, any problem he had prior or she is going to be worse.

Right, right. It can't, they can't make things better. There's nothing about it that could possibly be effective. There are like situations like what you're saying where you have to look at like safety, but there are ways to do that without the sensory deprivation piece. And if you look at any kind of program, and I always say, you know, for us we're sort of non denominational recovery, we like it all. So whether you get sober from going to church or 12 step or smart recovery, you can look and see what the unifying factors are. There's always community, right? Always. There's always something there that teaches you how to live and do different. And there's always this plan of how do you, I call it, become a person that you're proud of. Right. That you respect yourself. Those are unifying factors. You can look at any program, right. And those are there. So it's like what's really working about these programs and the community, the building up is essential in any one of them that you look at that has any effectiveness at all.

Exactly. And one of the sayings I love about 12 step programs is they say, you know, because most people, when you come in, I know for myself too, self esteem, self confidence, I mean, I hated myself in the beginning was like, look what I just did. How can I be happy with myself? They keep coming. We'll love you until. So you can love yourself. That's so true. Just people, you know, you walk in the door, you know, how are you? And that, that I'm fine. And walking away doesn't fly. Come here, how are you? And they genuinely care. But anywhere that community is so essential, essential to recovery.

Right. I'm going to look up and get, take some questions because we are getting some questions from, for you here, Kyle. Sure, let's see. Someone, Laurie here, she started watching a little bit late and she's asking again, what's the name of that treatment center you went to? And is it a treatment center that you have to be connected to the legal system to go to or can other people go?

Yeah, it's called Willard in New York State. And no, it's not a voluntary or people can't just go there at all. It is almost exclusively for people on parole in New York state who get in trouble for like a non violent drug offense, you know, failing a drug test or get caught with a very small amount of drugs. And they basically don't want to send you back in the system of just general prison. So they give you that option of doing there, but you can't voluntarily go at all.

Okay, but there are programs like that out there that you can go to. So the one, the one that Kyle went to, you really have to be in the legal system, get in. But there are other programs, plenty of other programs out there like that. Yeah. Okay. So Mike from Chicago Fire Department says he's been sober for six years and some months and some days from alcohol, and some days he has depression. I know how it feels to be down and out. I tell myself, alcohol won't fit, fix it.

Well, Mike, thank you for being a first responder service member. I appreciate that. That's awesome. It's funny because the other day I was at a 12 step meeting and somebody said, the guy said, my brain, the first solution to any problem is drugs and alcohol. And that was so true. And that's something my brain does too. But the difference, I would say kind of like especially when depression hits and all that, is the longer I stay sober, that more. That gap of my brain getting high would be the answer right now. But I have that 10, 20, 30 second gap where my brain says, no, that's not. And then I somehow connect with somebody in recovery. A phone call, I'm here. Or I'll get in my car and go. But to me, that connection again is always the answer to any depression. I always notice when my depression is kicking my ass. I've isolated in the last couple days or weeks somehow. I haven't called my friends and family. I haven't went and seen people even just a couple 10 minute conversations at work that are more in depth than how you doing.

It's like you have other skills, right? You have other options. And if you can get that window of, like you said, just those few seconds to consider another option, you got a little bit of a multiple choice instead of just a one solution. And some people in recovery, they'll say, I'm sure you've heard this, Mike. It's like there's no problem out there that alcohol can't make worse. And that's the truth of it, right? Whatever it is now you throw that on it and it's gonna get. It's gonna get worse, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Karen says her husband has. Is an Alcoholic and has been to second rehab last Monday. Started drinking on Tuesday. So frustrating. He's now a sober living house. Do you have any, as they say in recovery experience, strength or hope for Karen?

Yeah, like we talked about earlier, you know, I wouldn't get too down on. I know a lot of people say, like, that rehab didn't work or, you know, they sucked there, that they do this and that, and then a lot of people start spending more money for more expensive rehabs, thinking that's the answer. Unfortunately, it's on. It's up to him, and it's going to be time. You know, there's. There's not really. There's so many people that I know that I want to get sober, and I see them doing things and I'm like, this will help. Please, please come with me. This will help. I can't. It's just. It's time. But you know, anyone that ever emails me in a situation with a family member using, I say, please take care of yourself, because you could get caught in that tornado and, you know, destroy your own health and your own life and mental health trying to catch or save somebody.

Right. It always takes more than once. Karen. I've never seen anybody get sober on time. 1. Now, occasionally you see people that go to treatment when time gets sober, but that means they have tried and failed about 20 million other things on their own before they went to that treatment center. So it never happens in one time. It requires a lot of trial and error. And even if someone goes to treatment, I call it round one. Right. Round one is we tell you how this works and you don't believe us. And then you go out there and you learn, oh, well, maybe that happened just like she said it would. So it's okay. It plants those seeds in there and like, like Kyle says, it doesn't mean it didn't work.

Yeah, exactly. The seeds, who knows? He could be out in a couple days, and those little seeds just. They start growing a little bit, and he's thinking this and that, and then they build the next time in the sober house. Yeah. So it's definitely not a. Like a negative or a net loss going to treatment at all.

Mm. Let's see. Donna says, as a parent, you always hope for a moment of clarity for your addict while they're in lockdown. Being in solitary left a big impression on you. Would you call it discipline or consequence? The being in solitary part? I think that's what she's asking you.

I don't know. I. A little bit of both. But I could tell you that not one single second of being in solitary did it help. There was not a one moment where I was like, wow, because of this, I'm gonna get sober at all. And there's not really any clarity there, at least for, you know, for me, because There is this 15 out of 10 constant level of anxiety in there that there's no, like, okay, you know, I could look at these and this and this situation. It's.

There's no rational thought happening.

No, I mean, and at least for me, by, like, day 12, 15, I mean, I'm talking to walls, I'm singing to myself. I'm reading books out loud to pretend somebody's there. So there's no clarity coming in.

Right.

But general, like, jail. I know a lot of parents. My parents have this too. We felt comfortable when you were in jail because it was okay. Hopefully you won't overdose tonight. That's a sad fact. But, you know, at least they are safe in there to an extent. For right now. Yeah.

And you guys and Donna, you can go and look to it. When Kyle talks about this on his channel. He's got a lot of videos this month, particularly about it, but. And you'll hear when he talks about everything that got him put in solitaire was these stupid little, like, missteps, Right? They weren't huge things, but the. The punishment was so huge and counterproductive. It really is torture is what it is. It's torture. And so you're torturing somebody.

I'm actually. It's funny you say that, because I literally, like before we talked today, I'm writing a bunch of articles on solitary. It's. I wrote a real. A real good one about a year ago for solitary watch.org literally called the cycle of addiction in solitary and how it just creates more addiction. But, yeah, it's absolute torture. New York State appellate court and the UN have agreed. You know, the UN's rules says that 15 days or more of solitary in any case is a month to psychological torture. And I was in solitary on January 1, 2016. They came around and handed us this packet, like, this big. We'd never gotten a packet. Like, we don't get any paperwork. And it says, okay, this whole lawsuit's going into effect. New York. All the courts agreed that everything we're doing in solitary is too much. So all the little infractions I had smoking a cigarette in the wrong area, failed drug tests for weed, if I would have happened today in prison, maybe a max of 35, 40 days in solitary versus the 12 months and 25 days I got. There is steps in the right direction, I believe, but it's still pretty crazy right now.

Lauren has a comment up here. She or Laura says her enemy is gambling. I'm away from it now, but I'll never forget how far it took me. And I'm really glad you said that, Laura, because I talk about this a lot, but people think addiction is chemical dependency, and they get that confused. Chemical dependency can sometimes be a symptom of addiction, but it's not the nature of addiction, which is why any kind of process, addiction, like what Laura's talking about, can take you to the same depths of misery. And so I think it's good to really be aware that addiction isn't being physically dependent on a substance. It's something else that can be part of it, but it's not the whole. It's not the whole thing. Let's see.

I would say with that too much. My addiction is more. I can get addicted to exercise, sex, gambling, drugs, and alcohol. I don't know if it's. There's a lot of science coming out with, you know, it could be biological, some genetic factors. But, I mean, I can let myself get carried away with almost anything. Even right now, I still use tobacco, and I'll go excessive sometimes. So I can see how, you know, doesn't matter what it is. Like you said, we got to kind of unfortunately fight it daily, hourly.

Sometimes I like to say we have to direct it, you know, direct it in a positive direction, because if you really can't fight it, it's just there. I say, just like, point it. Kimberly says, while incarcerated, did you experience any helpful program that changed your outlook? It sounds like there's absolutely no help for addicts.

So the boot camp one was excellent. And, you know, like I said, they. They have a lot of AA and rehab and counselors in there that really do help, but you got to be receptive to it as well. Our platoon, so to speak, had 50 guys. I would say like seven or eight tried to get stuff out of there. The other 40 were just going through the motions. But hopefully seeds are planted in the general population. So they, like in New York, they do have. Whatever your charge is, you have to take a program based on that charge. Guys with assault had to take anger management. My case, you know, I had to take ASAP alcohol substance abuse treatment. The problem was the ASAP program was six months they moved me in there, and a week into it, I failed the drug test, and they sent me to Solitary, kicked out, done with the program. So I didn't even get a chance to get started in that program. I guess you could go back and forth. It's my fault. I use the drugs but at the same time give them a chance at the treatment, you know, like.

Yeah, I think it's complicated because a lot of treatments will put people out for failing. When you have people housed together, like if it's a sober living or inpatient, you almost have to remove the person because it's a communicable problem. Right. So if one person is. So as a matter of like protection, you do need to do something to separate. So it gets complicated. Does it fix that person's problem? No. Sometimes you have to remove a person. I'm not saying put them in solitaire at all, but to protect the other people. So it's. There's no easy answer there. It's tough. Let's see here. I'm going to take this question. It looks like a good one. Can punishment ever have a beneficial impact? My sister stolen thousands of dollars worth of items from me and in order to buy hair when I feel like some sort of punishment might help stop it. What do you.

You know, I. This seems like to me that question of you get asked a lot. My so and so stole from us. Should we press charges if it's really starting to affect everything and it's that serious? Sure. You know, like that's destroying your life too. I guess that's kind of how I would do it. I wouldn't have expectations that if you press charges she's gonna change your life right after. But you know that that's your right to do too, that she's now drastically affecting your life and other people's lives. I think you'd be a little better to answer this one. I don't, I go back and forth because I've seen both sides.

I think it's hard. I think you have to ask yourself, what do you. What's your intent that you want to happen here? Right. Sometimes you can leverage someone and you can say, I'm going to press charge. And unless you go get help and I want you to go to six month program or something like that, I'm not opposed to that. Right. If that's. If your goal is to get the person better, if your goal is to protect yourself from that person stealing from you and natural consequences, that person cannot be in your home, you know, and that's not a punishment. And you don't have to say that in any kind of mean way or go on and on about it. That's just a logical concept, you know, that's just a boundary for you, I guess, is the difference. So I think it's just like if I want something bad to happen to this person because they did something bad to me, I don't even have a problem with that. But if you're doing that expecting it's going to change the person, that's where it's not going to go. A lot of it's about intent and what you're trying to make happen and having reasonable understanding about how all that works.

Sure.

Yeah. All right, we're going to take one more and then we're gonna hop off here. But I have put Kyle's information in the description so you guys can check him out, hear all about it, and he tells a lot about it in much more detail on his channel. You're really gonna like that. All right. Kelly says, I have an 18 year old who's completing her second stint in an inpatient rehab. Got a DUI, possession charge. Any suggestions or thoughts?

I can kind of. I definitely can relate to that. I got a DUI very young. 16. But like we talked about earlier, it's very hard at that age because they might kind of be partying still and having, you know, fun. You know, one thing I, I know that my parents did that was a very good, like we talked about is not like the accusing, the aggressive stuff, but, you know, be safe and, you know, if you need a ride, let me know. Let's. If we need to get an Uber, like, try to at least, you know, help some causes like the dui, the drinking and driving, extremely dangerous. So my father always said if you take a taxi home, if you. You were drinking and you can't pay for it, let me know. And a couple times I did wake him up and do that, but that stopped me from drinking and driving a ton of times.

Right.

That changed my life or my behavior. But instead of just, you know, why'd you do that? So I, like you always say kind of instead of the accusatory, you kind of keep the window open for positive talk. And the list.

Yeah. So the offering to help with a cab or pick you up or whatever, that can help you from making a bad choice, that could result in some kind of major terrible thing, doesn't necessarily fix addiction. The only thing I would add to what Kyle said, and I think he's right on target, Kelly, is that if your daughter's in a program, the length of time that she's in that program is probably the factor that makes the bigger statistical difference in the else. And what you absolutely do not want to do is you do not want to put your child in a program whether it's 30, 60 or 90 days and then bring her back into your house can tell you it won't work, will not work. So if she's in a program, it needs to be followed up by some kind of sober living. Because it's not just that you have to be like kept away from drugs for a period of time, which is true. But you have to learn how to live life clean and sober. And they don't. You can't really get that real good good in a locked up treatment center. So make sure you follow it up with that next level where it's like life training plus being sober. So people forget that a lot when it comes to young people. Essential requirement always.

That is fascinating that I would not have looked at that angle for right after.

Yeah, with young people, a lot of times parents send them to treatment and then they, they think, okay, they were away and they do get better. You go visit them and they're better and they're in their right state of mind. You're like, oh my God, that's my kid back. But if you bring them back home and put them into your right same environment, it's almost like a magnetic force. It's almost just habit. You know, you just fall back in the same patterns. You start arguing. Your parents, they're watching you like a hawk because they don't trust you. You get defensive. It's just a disaster. So with young people, I'm a huge fan of sober living. A good sober living program that starts out fairly strict and has like layers where they get more and more and more freedom. Because you've got to learn how to get sober. You know, being in a treatment facility, learning about it, hearing about it is good, but putting into practice is a whole nother thing that.

Is that accurate. Yeah. That's so on point.

Thank you for everyone who joined us. I know we didn't get to all the questions and comments. You guys had some great ones. I would encourage you again to go check out Kyle over at Sober Dogs and I'll be back here with you next Thursday at one Live. See you then.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Sure.