From Fentanyl to Sobriety: Medication Assisted Treatment vs. 12 Step💊

So in this week's video, you're gonna get to meet Casey. Now Casey's one of our alumni, and the reason I've picked Casey's story for you to hear is because he's got some experience with a lot of different pathways to recovery. You know, there's so many questions out there right now about medication-assisted treatment. So if you don't know what that means, basically it's being on a medicine to replace a drug that you're addicted to. There's lots of controversy out there about the topic, which is why I wanted to share Casey's story with you. He's tried it several different ways, and so you're going to get some firsthand experience on what it's like to do medication-assisted treatment, on what it's like to do counseling, and what it's like to do a 12-step approach. So Casey, you, um, have some of the best 12-step recovery of the people that come through at HOVER Families. You actually are pretty steeped in the 12-step tradition, would you say?

Not really.

You don't think so?

Not lately, no. I haven't, I haven't been to a meeting in a while. I mostly just come here.

I would say though that your recovery religion is 12-step though.

Oh yeah.

Like what's in your heart, like your recovery filter.

Yeah.

Is 12-step.

Yeah.

Okay.

I try to go the whole, um, like, because I'm a recovery coach too.

Right.

So like the multiple pathways deal.

I call it like non-denominational recovery.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh, no, I'm not, I'm not good at that.

Okay.

It's all about like petting people on the head. Oh, it's okay. You know.

You're like one of those like old school AA guys. Shut up, turn your ears on and listen.

I feel like most people should.

Yeah. You think so?

Yeah, I think so.

Okay, but you didn't come to 12-step right away. You did some other things first because when I first met you, you were taking Suboxone. So how did you get—

how'd you make the decision to take I ran out of money and people that would loan me drugs.

Okay.

And I was withdrawing really bad, and I looked up clinics and called the first one that I could find and begged them to take me that day. And they usually wouldn't, but the guy I got in touch with, he got me in that day, and they hooked me up with the Suboxone. And yeah.

Did it help?

Oh yeah, I mean, for a while it helped. Um, for a while it was just like taking what I was taking.

Is there a difference between taking pain pills and taking Suboxone? Does it feel different?

Yeah, you don't get that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Okay.

I'm remembering right. I just never really got, like, in my opinion, like, the first thing they put me on was Subutex.

Okay.

And I had to, I called Mark up one day and it was like, you got to get me off on something else because I was getting high.

Okay.

Off of Subutex.

So when you got on Suboxone, it really wasn't just because you were in withdrawal.

You really were like, you might have been in withdrawal, but you really, you're like, I got to Well, that, well, that was after a little bit of time that I was like, I don't feel good about this anymore.

Okay.

The whole, like, I'm still getting that feeling because I've been like going to their meetings up there. They did have meetings for a little bit and like listening to it, and I was like, yeah, I probably got a problem because the day I called them was bad. Like, I was in real bad shape.

So people that might not know, Suboxone is half opiate and half opiate blocker, and Subutex is the same thing without the blocker, so it's just opiate.

Yeah.

So when you went in, you're like— what'd you say to him?

I mean, I talked to him over the phone. He asked me what was going on. I told him exactly what was going on. Yeah, I said, you guys have got to help me, please. I like begged him on the phone.

Yeah.

And he was like, okay, if you can come in. He like, he stayed on his lunch break to see me and stuff. And I just talked to him and then they wrote me a prescription after talking to me for a little while and I ended up on that.

Were you sick the day you called?

I was sick as shit the day I called.

What does it feel like to be in opiate withdrawal?

Not good. It feels like Uh, I don't know, like, you're just cold and hot, and it feels like having the flu.

Okay.

Like a really bad flu.

Okay.

But in the back of your mind, you're like worried to death about the fact that you can fix it if you just had something, you know.

The flu with a lot of anxiety and obsession on the top of it.

Yeah, honestly, that was— because when I finally did get clean, I went cold turkey and I didn't have that obsession really to use, and it wasn't nearly as bad. I think that's probably the biggest component of withdrawal.

You're making me remember. I didn't remember until just now, and you just said that, but this is one of my favorite stories about you. But when I first started seeing you, you were on Suboxone, and you and I— you wanted to come off of it yourself. You were like, I want to stop. You literally wanted to stop. But you weren't having much luck.

No.

And it just wasn't working for you. And so I was talking to you about going to like a men's recovery residence or whatever, and you were thinking about it. And then the first thing I said, well, I said, why don't you go to a meeting? Like, I think you— I think I told you to go to a Favor meeting or something like that.

Yeah, I think I went too.

And I didn't really think you'd go. I thought, I'm gonna tell him to do that because that's what I'm supposed to tell And then you came back and said you went. I was like, holy crap, he went. I was shocked that you went.

Which is another reason, like, I went to sign up to be like a recovery coach, because if I hadn't ever gone to Favor, I wouldn't have ever ended up at the halfway house or in AA or NA, because I did NA for the longer time. Because I was going to Favor high as kite for a while, for a few months.

So why was it helpful then? Like, if you're going to Favor but you're high, something must have still clicked in your brain.

Um, it was, you know, it was just being around people that are a lot like you. Some of them are just like you. Nobody's judging you there, and you can't unhear that stuff.

Plants the seeds in there.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I really, I mean, I really think that's like the The most valid idea for the whole multiple pathways thing is like, you cannot unhear it. You're not going to have a good time next time you start getting high.

So it may not take right away. It's not like somebody goes to a meeting and then they're sober, but it starts to change their thinking.

Yeah, because that compulsion is hard to break.

Oh yeah. Why in the world did you go to that meeting?

Was it not because you told me to?

Yeah, but no one does what I tell them to. So like, You're just that compliant?

I don't know. I'm good at like if someone smarter than me tells me to do something, I'm like, I usually do it.

Okay.

Well, sometimes. It seemed like a good idea. Oh, the day I got there, I showed up to talk to the guy that ran the place. I was still on Suboxone. I had Suboxone with me. I was eating fentanyl patches for a while now because the tapering didn't last or didn't work.

And that's what you did. You said, I'm gonna come off the Suboxone and I'm gonna do a bunch of fentanyl because it'll make the withdrawal better. Yeah, that's what it was. And I was like, what? I feel like we need to say don't try this at home.

Yeah, don't.

But yeah, you will die.

You will die. People are dying like crazy. So yeah, definitely don't do that. But I mean, I don't know. And when I got there, some things had happened that I was like completely ready to be there as well.

So. What were the things that happened? Can you share?

Um, I mean, mostly I freaked out on my son one day and I mean, just showed my ass. And again, like, I didn't hit him. But I freaked out on him. I acted like a child and, you know, probably scared him. I don't know that he remembers it now, but like it scared me mostly.

Because it's just like, that's not me. Like, what the heck's going on here?

And of course, like, I felt bad about what happened, but like I was in withdrawals. It's the reason I freaked out to begin with.

Right.

It's like he was doing What he does, which is being a kid.

Right.

And I was already irritated because I was doing something I didn't want to do.

Right.

Which was like plant a bunch of trees for my mom. And then I was withdrawing on top of it because I hadn't had anything in like 2 days. And yeah, I just, I freaked out.

I remember thinking too, when I was making the recommendation for you to go to recovery residence, because you were living with your mom and her new husband. And that was not working either.

Oh no.

Just the family dynamics and the psychology of it was a disaster.

Yeah, I got there. I've been living with my dad for like 3 or 4 years, just me and him and my son. Like every other week I had him, and then I got into it with my dad, and you know, he kicked me out, slash I just left. And I didn't have anywhere to go, so I just went to my mom's house. That wasn't going to work out either.

And you were actively using, and they knew that.

Yeah.

It wasn't like a secret.

Yeah.

They knew you were struggling with the problem.

At that point, they did.

Okay.

They didn't know for the longest time. And then I think after I got into it with my dad, they found out.

So they didn't find out until after you got into it with your dad?

My mom had no clue. I told her one day. I mean, she really didn't even know when I moved in there. Like, we went out and ate breakfast one morning, and I just told her, like, you know, I've got a problem, and I can't help myself. So I need some help.

How'd she respond when you told her that?

Like, she was, like, baffled, almost. Like, she had no idea. I'm a lot more intimate with friends. Than I am with my family. So I wasn't going to tell her that anyways, because up to that point I didn't have a problem. I had, you know, a solution. I thought I was enjoying myself.

You thought the drugs were the solution to your problems? Yeah.

I mean, that's— I feel after being in the rooms of like AA and NA for a long time, pretty sure that's how most addicts feel.

Right.

Is, you know, you were— something was up with you one way or another. You may be like quiet or awkward, or like in my case, like I kind of felt like I fit in everywhere and nowhere at the same time. And I felt like real distant from most people and kind of just like almost walking through like a dissociative like fog all the time. And I got high and that went away.

So, and so So you were staying with your mom and her new husband. That wasn't working well. And then you had the episode with your son. You had been trying to come off Suboxone yourself.

Yeah, I got scared.

Yeah.

Because I'd gotten down to like the smallest piece I'd ever gotten down to of the Suboxone strips. And I was like, okay, well, tomorrow is like the day I'm like coming off.

Right.

And I freaked out and just completely reverted and went and got some fentanyl and started getting high again.

Right.

For a couple days before, at least.

And then, well, one of the reasons why people get freaked out about coming off that last dose of Suboxone is what I've been told is it's pretty easy. I can watch people taper down from high doses of Suboxone all the way down to like the teensiest little bit. But that last step off of that last teensy little bit is pretty awful from what I hear.

Yeah, well, that's— well, one, that's what none of the clinic doctors are going to tell you is like Suboxone is one of the— or buprenorphine is one of the strongest opiates there is. So you don't need as much as they give you to begin with.

Right.

Like a piece of a piece is enough to get you through.

Right.

But as an addict, like, you always want to take more.

Right.

Like, you tell me to take half, I'm gonna take one. You tell me to take one, I'm gonna take 2. And plus, I think, I mean, you definitely do feel different with more.

Obviously.

So, I think they were like, okay, well, he's trying to make— let's do maintenance. So, This will keep them from going and getting high.

Right.

Because like I said, like, people are dying. The stuff I was doing kills people.

Right. You're not really anti-Suboxone.

No, I think it definitely has its place. My thing with Suboxone is, and like, it helped me a lot. Like, I've said that before. And the thing about it is, is it's a maintenance drug. And if you ever want to do anything other than maintain, You got to get rid of it.

Why would you want to do something other than maintain?

Because, you know, you could have a completely different life than you think you could.

Okay.

You know, when you're just like, okay, well, I'm gonna get high, like, you're not really changing anything by doing the Suboxone instead. You're just going back to the same job you hate and, you know, dealing with the same friends.

Your life doesn't feel different.

Yeah, you don't actually change anything.

Okay.

The only thing you do is is change the substance you're taking.

Okay.

And all that is is maintaining. I mean, it's in the name, like it's a maintenance drug.

So what's the difference? Is withdrawal different or harder or whatever in any kind of way coming off of just opiates versus coming off of Suboxone?

It's a lot longer process.

Okay.

I think the guy that did the drug test at the halfway house came up to me about 28 days after I'd gotten there, and he was like, you finally pissed clean.

Wow.

So it takes a lot longer to get out of your system, and you'll— it's not as intense, but it's, you know, you're gonna be shivering and shaking for a while.

Because withdrawal from regular opiates takes about 5 5 days, 5 to 7 days, and it's horrible, but you know you got 5 days.

Yeah.

And coming off of Suboxone, it's not as acutely horrible, but it goes on forever. It feels like, yeah, that wears people down. I think.

Every time I tried to like get off of opiates just cold turkey, I'd tell myself that same, like, it's going to be bad 4 or 5 days. But like, the thing about it is As somebody addicted to painkillers, you're kind of a wimp. Like, you don't want to go through 4 or 5 days of pain. So as soon as I start thinking about that, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna call somebody and get high. So that doesn't work. Didn't for me. I mean, I don't know, there's people do different things.

So, so you, you, like a lot of people, decided to have one last big hurrah and then took yourself to stay at the recovery residence?

Oh, I think, I think my thing was, or I know it was, because I, I was rationalizing it as I'll hold on to the Suboxone and then I'll do some fentanyl and then I'll like do like a 3-day taper off the Suboxone and that'll like cut the edge off. But then the Suboxone won't last as long either. So I mean, I'm not a doctor.

But you are a drug addict.

I'm pretty close.

So you're kind of a chemist. Yeah. Okay.

And you know, it could have worked. But again, like, I've lost that, like, compulsion or any kind of will to use at that point when I got there. Like, I was just done.

What changed? Why? Because when you got in there, you cold turkey'd it, I think, didn't you?

Yeah.

That's what I thought. I don't remember.

Yeah, like I said, for the longest time I thought that was my solution, and then whenever I had the incident with my son, it kind of just like was like right in my face, like it's not working.

Right.

And you're worse now than you've ever been.

So, and one of the things I know about you, Casey, is like, and even then, even when you were using You're like a super self-reflective guy. You have a harder time than most being in some self-denial about something. So yeah, you, it was like you were watching yourself be somebody who you knew.

I'm real stubborn though as well. So, okay, but it wasn't good, but it's easy to forget when you're high.

But your self-honesty wins over your stubbornness all the time.

Yeah.

When it comes down to it, that other part is stronger.

Yeah, I mean, that's true, but then like they say, like, knowing's not enough. Like, you can know and it's not gonna make any difference.

Well, you have to put the knowing with a plan.

Yeah, usually the, like, knowing for me just meant I felt shittier about what I was doing.

Right.

So like me, like, I knew what I was doing was Dangerous or bad for me. Um, but I was, you know, I was getting high and I was, I was enjoying it for a long time. For a long time I did enjoy it. Um, and then like when it stopped being that enjoyable, like it was kind of like that little voice that's like, you know, you're not having fun anymore.

It's just a job eventually. Yeah.

I mean, it turned, yeah, it turned into a full-time job.

Right. How much money do you think you were spending?

Uh, I could send like both our kids to college probably.

Really?

Yeah, I had at least a $100 a day habit.

$100 a day? Yeah. Well, that racks up quick.

Yeah, it does. And that's the thing, I don't even know where I was getting the money from. Um, I just, you know, find a way. You find a way.

Did you— so most people I know that have addiction to opiates, they pawn stuff or steal stuff. You worked, so you had—

Yeah, I had money, and then, um, I like ran like a little side business.

Okay.

And that got like— really, the side business was for one person in particular, and they were the person that gave me the drugs.

Okay.

So I didn't really need money. I just needed to like trade.

You had a little bartering system.

Yeah, I had like a bartering thing going on.

Okay, we got you.

Yeah.

All right, so you, so you go to the recovery residence, you cold turkey it. How— I remember seeing you, like, I think I went into the Walmart just for something random and walked by you, and it was like day 2 or 3, and you didn't— you weren't that terrible. You were like literally in Walmart, so I was like, what is this?

Yeah, I mean—

You're not hugging the toilet. That was good.

Yeah.

So you, so you, you get off. How long before you started to feel like a human being? Like you might live?

Uh, it was a week and a half, 2 weeks probably before I like felt anywhere near as good as I do now.

Okay.

Um, but it didn't take long to like to realize like I felt I feel better today than I did yesterday.

Okay, so it got a little better. Usually not the first or second day. I usually hear about like day 4 or 5 start to get—

Oh yeah.

A little better than the first few.

It's not gonna be the first or second day.

No.

Or the fourth. Uh, it may be closer to 2 weeks.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't want to like give anybody false hope.

Right.

Because I see a lot of that like, um, I subscribed to a subreddit on reddit.com for like opiate recovery. And there's a lot of people that get on there and they're like, okay, I've been off for like 2 days. When is it going to get better? And people tell them, you know, 4 days. I'm like, no, you're not going to feel better anytime soon.

Yeah, I know.

But you will feel better than you did yesterday.

Okay. I remember After you got through those initial first couple weeks, then you really did start to come to life, and you were almost like an excited little kid.

Yeah.

You were like, you thought everything was so fun. Like, I've never seen you, I've never seen you so happy.

Yeah, I was enjoying myself a lot. I actually really enjoyed the halfway house, and that like part of that is because I did feel better, um, and then another part was like I had friends That I didn't have friends before really, and another part was I didn't have to work.

Okay.

Um, but yeah, and plus the guys that were there were younger than me, um, so they were still like stupid.

Okay.

And having a lot of fun just doing really boring stuff, which I have a hard time doing sometimes.

But that was good for you. Oh yeah, it was really good. Just be silly and be fun for a while.

I enjoyed it, and like When I started getting high, I was 14, 15, and it was only a few days before I started getting high every day.

So, you really didn't have like regular teenage life.

Yeah, I didn't grow up much.

Right. And you became a dad pretty young too.

Yeah.

So, you really, between the drugs and that, you really didn't have much teenage life, like the traditional way.

No, it was mostly running after drugs.

Okay. So you were pretty happy for a while. You were kind of, I don't know if I would call it pink cloud because you weren't really like irrational about the process. You just felt better.

Yeah.

And how long did you stay in the recovery residence?

About 2 and a half, 3 months. Not nearly as long as they wanted me to.

Okay.

But they liked me a lot. And I did everything they told me to. I went to meetings without them telling me to. It was obvious, like, I think it was really obvious that I was like enjoying things and like kind of taken to the process.

Like you were getting it. You could definitely tell like you were getting it.

And there were some, like, some people don't.

Right.

But I did, and I did for I went to a meeting every day for almost a year and a half before I stopped going so much. So eventually, for a while.

While you were in the recovery residence, you started going to 12-step meetings?

Yeah. Started going to NA.

NA. And then you got a sponsor?

Mm-hmm.

How long were you going to meetings before you got a sponsor?

I wasn't going to get a sponsor. They had to force that on me.

They had to make you?

Yeah, they had to force that on me in the halfway house. Somebody pretty much just said, here, talk to this guy.

Is it like one of the rules?

Ask him to be your sponsor. It was one of the rules.

One of the rules, you had to get a sponsor.

But I actually really liked the guy. You know, he taught me a lot. Yeah, that was a good relationship.

So how did having a sponsor help you?

Well, he kind of pointed out when I was full of shit.

Okay.

That would be probably the number one, because he just kind of talked things out with me. He was kind of Mr. Miyagi with the steps, kind of wash on, wash off. Like, don't really worry about—

Just do what I tell you to do.

Yeah, just do what I tell you to do and you'll be better off. And he was right, and, you know, we kind of just talked things out and he'd just kind of point out like my thought process, the fault in my thought process, which was a lot because I said, you know, I'm pretty confident in most things I say and it turns out I'm wrong a good bit. But if I don't respect you, like you could tell me all day that I'm wrong, I'm not gonna listen to you. I'll just, um, you know, argue until you think I'm right.

Why'd you respect this guy?

Because he had it all together. I mean, he had, um, like a really well-paying job. He had like an air of, I don't really give a shit.

Okay.

And he had a lot of clean time.

Like he was confident. Yeah.

And he always showed up late everywhere. And that had been something. Yeah, that had been something that was like ingrained in me like since I was really young is you're always on time. If you got a rush, it doesn't matter what it takes, you get somewhere on time.

Okay.

And I was like, he's always late and it doesn't really make a difference, people still respond to him pretty well. I was like, so I'm just gonna be late to everywhere.

Okay.

For a while I was. I've gotten back to where I was, so I like being on time.

It's funny though that you picked up on that, that you were like noticing that.

Yeah.

Of the things.

Yeah.

You're like, man, he's late and people still like him.

Yeah, I mean, I thought he must have something because he was a really short guy.

Okay.

And, uh, still, he had like— he didn't give a shit. He acted like he was just like God's gift or something. Not, not to say he was like just hoity-toity or anything, but he had confidence about him, faults or not.

He had self-esteem.

Yeah, he had self-esteem. And I didn't have much after, you know, a decade or more of abusing drugs and doing whatever it took to get drugs.

Right.

So yeah, it was a good relationship.

So you, so when you left the recovery residence, you moved in with your sponsor?

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. That worked for a little while.

Okay.

And then it got kind of awkward. I got a girlfriend.

Right.

Kind of started like—

You start growing up.

Yeah.

Moving on, you know, not moving on from your program, but it's hard to have a girlfriend if you have, you know, a bunch of roommates, some in recovery, some thinking about getting in recovery.

Yeah, we had a bunch of junkies on the couch.

Okay.

So, which was like admirable, and it was You know, I felt better just from being there because it was almost like I was helping these people because technically that was my couch too, but you're not gonna catch any junkies on my couch.

Okay. Yeah. Why were there junkies on your couch?

Um, I think he just liked to help people.

Your sponsor? Yeah. Okay.

And in the end, that's kind of where— why I like grew apart. We grew apart is because he was more of like a first few steps guy, and then he took on a lot of sponsees, and then if you were, you know, if you were higher up in the steps and you were kind of slacking for a little while, which I was, then he just kind of, you know, paid you no mind.

So, so he was, but he was perfect for you in those like super early stages?

Yeah, he was a really good early stage sponsor for sure.

And at the same time you were going to like IOP, which is intensive outpatient. So you were like literally have done a little bit of all the different recovery things, right?

Yeah.

So you've like done counseling, you've done Suboxone, you've done lived in recovery residence, you've done intensive outpatient, you've done every kind of 12-step, FAVOR. Like you kind of had like a hodgepodge recovery plan going on.

I've done it all. I didn't go to detox. We couldn't afford both.

Okay.

I couldn't afford anything.

Right.

So my mom couldn't afford both.

Right.

So if it was one or the other, you know, I think we talked about that. And detox was like a few days, and I knew after 3 days not having drugs in the past, I was gonna want drugs as second I got out.

Right.

So the halfway house is the only option really.

And you've been clean ever since then?

Yep.

All right, so you really only did treatment one time?

So far. So I'd like to say it's so far.

So far. Why do you think it worked for you the first time?

Because, because I knew I was like not the end-all be-all of anything.

Humility?

I wouldn't call it humility, but I knew I wasn't like the smartest person around. Like, after doing everything that I did, like, it became really obvious that like I didn't really know nearly as much as I thought I did.

Okay.

So when I got there, I'd really that didn't want to get high anymore. So anyone who had stopped getting high and was enjoying themselves, I'd do whatever they told me to do.

Okay, you were willing.

Yeah, I'd say that's number one. You were ready. Yeah, that's number one is being willing. And if you're not ready, being willing to like be willing.

A lot of it's about timing.

Yeah.

Right, and humility. And willingness are the keys, I think.

Yeah.

But I'm betting you try, even though that was the first time you went to treatment, I bet you tried a whole bunch of different ways on your own before you ever even thought about—

Oh yeah.

Something like that.

I, um, when I first got high, it was, I smoked weed and it wasn't but a few days before I was popping painkillers. And I just went off to the races as soon as I did that. It was every single day from the day I was like 15.

So you're 15, talking about your first experience, 15, you smoke weed and then 3 days later you're taking pain pills?

Yeah, it wasn't long.

Whoa, dude.

Yeah, I was hanging out with an older kid.

Okay.

And yeah, I had money, he knew how to get drugs. So it kind of worked out.

And you just immediately knew you're gonna like these drugs? Like, how did you— what were you thinking in your 15-year-old brain?

Well, it was kind of the same, like, thought process as people with more clean time than I do. Like, they know how to get high better than I do.

Okay.

So it's the same process. I just applied it to getting clean.

So you're thinking This guy seems to have this down pat.

Pretty much, yeah.

Let me do what he's doing.

Yep.

So you smoke weed for the first time, 3 days later you take pain pills, and then how fast does it progress from there?

Well, for me it was really fast. Other people, it's slow. I don't know. For me it was fast.

Okay.

And I would do pretty much whatever I could get my hands on.

So you were 15 when that first started, and how old were you when you went to recovery residence? I was 26. So like 10, 11 years?

Yeah, a little bit more than a decade.

You were in the game?

Yep.

When's the first time you When did you realize it was a problem? I know you talked about the thing with being upset with your son, but that was the first time you realized it strong enough, I think, to be like, okay, I gotta do something. But it can't be the first time you realized like this is an issue.

Well, that was like me and my best friend at the time. That was like something we just laughed about, um, when we were waiting on the dope man to call.

Laughed about what?

We'd feel like shit, so we'd just Just say, you know, how we're addicts. And I think we both knew that that was completely true.

So it was like one of those, like, I'm joking, but I really mean it? Yeah. Okay.

And it did make me feel better to say it. It still does. That was one of the first things I learned when I got to NA was it feels good to say that you're an addict. Why?

Because people resist that like super hard.

Yeah, people do usually resist the truth.

Okay.

So that's, I mean, that's why you're in self-denial for the longest time. And you know you're an addict, you know you've got a problem. And, uh, but, you know, facing that would mean that you either would have to do something about it or keep doing what you're doing. And after you know what you're doing is wrong, it doesn't feel good anymore. By the time I turned 20, I knew full well that like I couldn't stop doing what I was doing or I was gonna get sick.

Okay. So for 5 years, 4 or 5 years, it was, this is fun.

Yeah, and then I had my son when I was 21.

Okay.

And it kind of occurred to me then when I was like, you know, I should really want to not get high anymore and like grow up. But I didn't.

Okay, you knew you should be moving on to another phase of your life.

Yeah.

But you weren't moving on.

But I had no intention of doing that.

Okay.

But I did like switch from painkillers to just drinking very heavily.

Okay, because that was a responsible thing to do?

Yeah, that was a more responsible thing. Okay, well, I went from painkillers to drinking whiskey every day.

Okay.

And then I got yelled at for the whiskey.

Okay.

And then it turned to beer.

Okay.

And then I just I got you. Because that's how that works.

I usually call that bargaining. So I'm gonna quit doing this, I'm gonna do that, then that's wrong, I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna do this.

Yeah, anytime I could have got pulled over or, you know, gotten— or died. I mean, because what I was doing, like, you totally kill somebody with what I was doing. I just built up a really high tolerance and I could have lost my son. Any number of things could have happened. So I knew it was a problem.

You knew you were just like, your whole life was like Russian roulette.

Yeah.

When you're in active addiction, how did your substance use affect your family? Like your mom, dad, sister, your son, everybody?

I don't know. I spent a lot more time with my son. When I was getting high than I do now, which is something that kind of like causes me grief a lot. But it wasn't very much quality time, and I still have a hard time making it quality time, but it was a lot better than it used to be. I feel like, I feel like I used to just kind of be like sort of like a dog, like an overprotective dog or something. Like you couldn't really get much attachment out of me.

Like you looked out for his safety, but you weren't very like emotionally—

Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't very emotionally available. I should definitely edit the dog part in post.

Okay.

I don't know what I'm talking about, but—

I took it as you meant like protective.

Yeah, I was protective.

You were protective.

I wouldn't let— I wouldn't want anything to happen to my son. Um, the rest of my family kind of fell apart. And I had walled myself up and didn't really notice.

You weren't really connected to them. Is there one thing that you have that you would tell— piece of advice you would tell someone out there that is maybe somewhere in that stage of, I've got a problem, and they're trying to figure it out?

Like the contemplation stage?

Fancy. Yes, the contemplation stage. He's impressive.

Dropping hot words.

Yeah.

You do have a problem and you should get help.

Okay.

If you have to think about it, you've got a problem.

Okay, if you're contemplating the issue.

Yeah, because there's pre-contemplation before contemplation, and if you got past pre-contemplation, you got a problem.

And so pre-contemplation is fancy for denial.

Yeah, like if you ever thought I should, you know, maybe stop and weren't able to immediately, you've got a problem.

Okay.

But other than that, my best advice is, if somebody's better off than you are and they've got more clean time or more sobriety than you do, which to me is the same thing, I don't know why there's 2 different words, but listen to what they tell you to do. Even if, you know, you wouldn't normally talk to, even talk to that person.

So be open-minded to other people about how to actually make the change. Yeah. Okay.

For sure.

Do you have any piece of advice for any family member, like a parent or a spouse out there who's worried about their loved one who's got a drug or alcohol problem?

Help yourself. That would be my best bet because, you know, even if they do love you as much as you love them, if you're in full-blown addiction, that doesn't matter.

Okay.

And, you know, I wasn't like married. Like I said, I did have my son and I had my family and I could have lost— I mean, I could have lost everything and that never would have stopped me from doing what I was doing. If I was married, I would have no problem with getting a divorce.

You loved your family, like you loved your son, you loved your family, but it still wasn't enough to keep you from making decisions every day.

Yeah, I made horrible decisions all the time, knowing full well that everything was on the line.

So, so we talked about the first time you knew you had a problem. What was the first time you knew you were getting better?

I think it was like the first time that we actually talked about drugs in the halfway house.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's one thing you'll realize when you get in like recovery circles. If it's going good, you're not talking about drugs or alcohol. You're usually just talking. But the first time I think we did like devolve into Talking about drugs, it occurred to me that I don't want to do them anymore.

Okay.

Or that, like, I could talk about what I did do and it didn't make my mouth water.

Right. So it's like they're talking about it and it's not like I'm craving it.

Yeah.

I don't want to.

Yeah, I think that's probably it.

Okay. What do you think is the biggest difference in who you are now versus who you were in active addiction?

I'm a lot more vulnerable, I think.

Okay. I didn't—

I don't like build a wall around myself anymore. I mean, I kind of do. I'm kind of prickish, you know, like a puffer fish.

Like a puffer fish?

Yeah, but I don't know, generally I'm a lot happier than I used to be, even on like my bad days. They say that in the rooms a lot, and if you go to enough meetings, you will hate all those clichés, but mostly because they're true.

Mostly because they're true.

And that just gets annoying when, you know, I hate it when people are right, especially when they're just right all the time. It's almost just like, screw you, leave me alone. I'm a lot more capable of walking through the world and not just losing it every time I sit down or turn around or do anything.

Do you have a lot more resilience?

Yeah.

Than you used to?

A lot more resilient. I'm still like an anxious mess a lot, but I'm a lot better than I would have been.

Okay, so it's not easy to get up here on camera and share your story with the whole world. It's a pretty vulnerable thing to do. So show Casey some love. Let him know that you appreciate his taking the time and opening himself up for our benefit. Give him a thumbs up. It lets him know that what the time that he took, it lets him know that you appreciate his effort. For tons more information on all things addiction and recovery and lots of free expert advice, make sure and subscribe and hit the bell so you don't miss a thing.