He Relapsed Within A Week Of Leaving Treatment

You guys, I got to tell you this story about Jenny. Now, Jenny is a mom of a young adult son, and she spent $34,000 on basically two months of inpatient treatment for her son Jake, who was an adult, 32 years old. And Jake relapsed within a week of leaving that treatment center. Now, as you could imagine, she was pretty upset, right? Like, that's a lot of money. I think she maybe even had to, like, take out a second mortgage or something on her house to. To make it happen. And her son Jake was back living in her house with her. And she basically kind of had. She was all in on the fact that this treatment center was going to work. And when it didn't, not only was she devastated because she's scared to death and worried about her son, but she was out a lot of money. Naturally, she's upset. And this story is actually pretty common. Too common. And that's why we're going to talk about it today. I know about this story because I met Jake. So I'm going to tell you this story from this point of view. I'm going to tell you about the conversation I with Jake, and then I want you to think about whether or not this was a good investment and if it was why and if it wasn't why. So Jake was not looking forward to meeting with me at all. Now, I didn't know this because I haven't met with him yet, but I'm not surprised because that's the case a lot of times. In fact, he was flat out dreading it. He was about 10 minutes late for his first appointment, which was over zoom with me, and which is fine. I'm late sometimes, too, so no stones thrown here. But it wasn't just that he was two minutes late, but he literally was laying in his bed, and he didn't. He didn't even sit up and talk to me. He just literally, like, was like this. He just, like, had his phone. I could kind of see, like, his nose and his eyebrows or something, right? He's talking to me. And so I start out with the question that I frequently start with, which is, hey, nice to meet you, Jake. How can we make this meeting be really worthwhile for you? Because I want to know, like, what can we accomplish in this hour that you're going to feel like, hey, that was worth it. And he says, I don't know. I'm only here because if I don't come, my mom's going to kick me out. And then I say, your mom's going to kick you out? Yeah, she basically. She wanted me to go to sober living. I finally talked her down, and I said I would come to counseling appointments and go to meetings every day, and she finally agreed to that. And so here I am at these meetings, and I was like, oh, so you're kind of, like, pushed into doing this? He's like, yeah. And you know what the bad thing about it is? I just got out of, like, 63 days worth of rehab. Yeah, rehab. 63 days. And that's not enough. And now I'm here. She wants me to go to a meeting every day. She wants me to talk to you, and I'm basically just pissed off about it. I don't really want to talk to you. I don't know how this is going to help. It's depressing talking in those groups all the time. It's not helping me. And. But I got to do this. This is attitude, right? And luckily, it's not the first time I've dealt with this, so I wasn't too. I wasn't too panicked. And so I just said. I said, wow. Well, why. Why did. Why she think you need to go treatment? I don't know. I. Okay, I was drinking too much, but she sent me in there with a bunch of freaking fentanyl addicts. Like, she. She thinks I'm a junkie. And really, I mean, yeah, okay, okay, okay, I was drinking too much, but I just went through a divorce. And you want to know what else? You want to know why I went through a divorce? I went through a divorce because my wife slept with my best friend. That's what the issue is. So, yeah, who can blame me? Okay, I was drinking too much. I know I need to get it under control, but I don't need to go to rehab with a bunch of drug addicts and go to meetings every day to fix the problem. So I said, wow, dude, that is a lot. I think that would make anyone hit a low point. Dang. And he's like, yeah, but no one wants to listen to that because if I bring that up, they say, you're just making excuses for your drinking. And they think I'm just justifying and rationalizing. They put all these psychological terms on me or whatever. I think anybody in my position would probably start drinking too much. And I'm like, well, I gotta tell you, anybody in your position would probably start some kind of counterproductive coping skill, because that's rough. And he. And he says, yeah, it is. But you know what my mom says about my mom Says, well, you're drinking was why your marriage fell apart in the first place. How could you say that to someone? I mean, I didn't make her go sleep with my best friend. Not only did I lose my wife, I lost my best friend. And then I went to rehab for two months. And then guess what happened? I lost my job. Right? Because I couldn't go to work. And I hadn't had that job very long, so it wasn't like I had all these benefits to take all this time off work. So now here I am living with my mom, which is, you know, not fun. She reminds me every five minutes that she spent $34,000 on treatment. And I gotta go to a meeting every day to an AA or an na and I gotta meet with you. And I said, wow, it sounds like no one wants to listen to your point of view. He's like, yeah, that's exactly it. I said, well, my job is just to be here to advocate for you. So it sounds to me like the issue is the situation, your heartbreak. Right? You're mad, you're upset, you've gone through a divorce. Maybe that's where we should start. And he's like, yeah, that's what probably I should be talking about. And so that was my first conversation with Jake, as you're listening to that. And that's not word for word. I. I did write it down somewhere. It's not word for word, but it's pretty dang close. Okay. And it's not an uncommon way for me to start. Most people are less outwardly kind of hostile to me, but they definitely are feeling the same way on the inside. Not everyone will say it to my face like Jake did, but most people, a lot of people feel that way or have felt. I don't get that as much these days anymore, but I used to. Used to. Every client I had came in like that. So the issue here is not whether or not she sent him to a good treatment center. That's not the issue here. Raise your little hand in the comment section if you know what the issue is here. And write the Right. Right, the issue. Right. It's not that she didn't send him to a treatment center. In fact, she sent him to a really nice treatment center. Because you know what? The $34,000 she paid was after insurance. Yeah. So it costed more than that. This is what she paid. This is her part of what she paid after the insurance paid. So this is actually a really good treatment center. I'd heard of it before. They have A great reputation. And Jake ended up admitting to me, he's like, well, I mean, I didn't need to be there. It wasn't that bad. Basically, he says, like, it wasn't that bad. There were some. There were some all right. People there, but I just didn't need it. And I sure didn't need to be there for more than two months. And definitely it wasn't worth no $34,000. I know I need to drink less. That's it. What else is there to say about it? We don't need two months to figure that out. I got it. I know I don't. I need to deal with my divorce situation. I need to move on my life, and I need to quit drinking as much. So as you can imagine, within a week, Jake had decided to drink again. He wasn't going to drink too much, but he was going to have a few drinks or a drink or two every now and then. Not every day, but in his mind, it's, I just need to drink less and I need to deal with this divorce. And there's some truth in that. Right. I do think that a major part of the issue was the fact that he was going through divorce, but there was also some truth that I kind of knew from behind the scenes, from the family counselors, that I'm not saying that the wife slept with the best friend because of his drinking, but I'm saying his marriage was already falling apart and they were actually on a break from that. Doesn't excuse it. I'm not excusing it, but I'm saying it was a little more complicated than he was presenting it to me, as it always is. Right. So it goes to this treatment center. He admits it wasn't really that bad. He did learn some things. It probably was good for him to, like, get out of the middle of the situation for a while, but he was mad about having gone there. And the big issue with why the treatment wasn't successful wasn't because they don't know what they're doing. It wasn't because they didn't teach him the right things. It wasn't because it was full of a bunch of drug addicts. That's not any of it. The reason why it wasn't successful is. And it wasn't because Jake doesn't have a problem, because he definitely had a problem. Let me promise you. It was because Jake wasn't ready for that yet. Right. It was because he got pushed into it. Now, did he need it? Yes. But was he ready for it? No. And when someone's not ready for it and you're pushing it, it's like they go and it will help them a little bit if they stay long enough. If you keep somebody up in there long enough, they're going to learn something. They're going to get a little bit better, but they're still going to have it in the back of their head that they don't really need to do all those things. So even though he learned all the things, even though he had counseling and support and everything else, it wasn't going to stick because he wasn't ready. That is probably the biggest reasons why treatment doesn't get people the results that they want, at least not initially. I'm gonna come back to that because I actually think treatment success rates are better than what you see printed. I'll come back to that, though. But that's why people don't get the results that they want. Like, I can promise you, Mary didn't think that her son was going to relapse within a week of leaving this really expensive treatment place. Right? That's not the only reason, but that's probably the biggest reason. Another thing that kind of plays into that is the fact that most family members think that their loved one needs the biggest cat daddy of all treatments. And a lot of times they do, but they don't understand exactly how treatment works. They don't understand insurance, they don't understand criteria. And just this past week, I had someone who's basically family, pretty much said, go, or else. They kind of got leveraging a little bit like Jake. But the dream center wouldn't let this person in because they didn't meet criteria, because they had basically were in a relapse that hadn't gone on that long. So they didn't make criteria to get in there. And I understand why the family's thinking, oh, my gosh, we got to get in there. Because it was. It was spiraling pretty fast. And this problem had been there before and it was really bad for. So the family's thinking, I know where this is going. But actually the issue in that case wasn't just that she didn't meet criteria, but actually the problem that's going on with that person who actually did really good for a long time. It wasn't that she needed rehab. She didn't need to be taught about the brain stuff. She didn't even be taught about the coping skills. She didn't eat all this stuff. She needed to understand that, yeah, you still have this problem, and she needed to have. Get the desire and the want to get it back under control. And it's not always a need for rehab. I'm not saying rehab's bad. I mean, I think it's great. In fact, I think most of them actually do work. Almost all of them have a really good plan and they. And they have good treatment people. It's how the system is set up. And so part of it is because people get pushed into it before they're ready. And if you're. The family member of someone has this problem, if you could just focus your attention not on making this person stop the addiction, not on making this person go to treatment. Instead, if you could focus your attention on getting them motivated to solve the problem, which, which is a few steps in there, right? They got to open their eyes to the problem. They gotta get out of the now and they gotta get motivated to solve it, which means they gotta feel like life's gonna be better without it. And the third little component of that is they kind of have to. They have to feel like they're capable of it. Because some people know they have problem, they know life would be better than it, but they don't think they're capable of it. So you kind of have to have all three of those things in place, if you will, attention on those things first. Then you have plowed the ground in such a way that when someone does get treatment or help, the seeds that get planted in the treatment or the help, they actually work faster. If you don't plow the ground and you send them treatment, it doesn't matter how good of a counselor they have, how good of trauma treatment, they have, how good of groups. And they had yoga and they had horseback riding and everything else it is not going to take because the ground isn't ready for the seeds yet. So you gotta. You gotta follow the ground. The other thing about it is people usually pretty inherently know what they need to do. Okay? This isn't. It's rarely ever an issue of someone not knowing how to stay sober. People know how to stay sober. I mean, just inherently, right? It's not that complicated, right? Stop using, probably start. Stop going around the same people, places and things, right? It's. It's more simple than we try to make it out. The issue is, is the staying motivated, staying in the right frame of mind. And we skip all that. I was talking to someone else a couple of weeks ago, and this person, this was a mom I was talking to who was also trying to help her son. And the son in this case was a little younger. It was like a college student and her son had some change. She'd been watching my channel, so she knew she needed to list wait for some change shot, which she did. So I was super proud of her. She heard, but she heard, like, the bare minimum of change shot, right? Like, the beginning of the change talk, which was, yeah, I probably need to cut it back. And as soon as he says, I need to cut it back, she's like, okay, let's do this. Wow, I know this detox place. Or we could do this, or we could get you involved in that, or we could send you this treatment center. Or you know what, this treatment center, they. They're like an outdoo treatment center, and that's going to work really well for you. So she starts throwing all these answers at them. And I'll give her some credit. She didn't completely fail this because she did set the stage to some degree, and she held the course long enough to get a little bit of change talk. But sometimes when you get that first change talk statement, I mean, I'm kind of like this too, honestly, it's like, here it is. And then you just want to, like, jump on it, right? And you push it too fast, and then you freak the person out, and then they scramble almost backwards. So the idea here is harvesting out of the person, the motivation and the know how to do it. I'll tell you about a really cool experience I had lately. I had it on. I had on my calendar that I was actually going to be talking to a father in the situation. I thought I was gonna be talking to the dad, but I click onto the zoom meeting, and the dad's not there. The son is there. And the son in this situation was a teenager. And I was kind of discombobbled at first because I was, like, really respecting you. Who are you? Or whatever. And he was like, I'm so. And so he said his name. I'm not gonna say his name. And just so you know, Jake wasn't the other person's name either. I never say real names. But anyway, so this. This young. I want to call him kid raised kid to me. But this young guy, he's like, yeah, my dad said I had to make this appointment. And I said, well, what are we supposed to be talking about? And just as soon as I said that, this young person was like, I've been smoking too much weight and I need to cut it back. But actually, I don't really know. I have this point because I actually already cut it back. A whole lot. I was like, oh, yeah, you did? And I followed this conversation out, and I've got a video coming up where I'm going to literally go through the entire conversation for you, because it was. It was kind of cool. But this kid already knew that he was smoking too much weed, and he was already motivated to stop because he's like, I know if I keep doing this, I'm just gonna, like, keep not being motivated. I'm just gonna fall behind, and my life's just gonna waste away. I didn't have to do anything. I just literally asked him, like, two questions. And out with that. He says. And I was like, yeah, because, you know, you're like an adult now, and, you know, it's time. It's kind of. It's time to move on. It's time to grow up. It's time to, like, live your life. He's like, yeah, I know, right? And I was like, well, what was going when you were smok? And he was like, well, I didn't have much motivation, and my mood was, like, all over the place. One minute I'm like, totally great, and I'm fine and I'm happy, and the next minute I'm, like, depressed or sad or want to rip someone's heads off. I was like, oh, so you're like, mood was all over the roller coaster? And he's like, yeah, it was. It was kind of a mess. So. So I've dealt with it. I've cut it back. I was like, all right. And he's like, I don't do it during the week anymore. Only just, like, you know, maybe like, once on the weekends. I was like, oh, so you put some guardrails up? He's like, yeah, put some guardrails up just once on the weekends. And, you know, this whole conversation plays out. And to me, this was an example. I mean, it's not always as simple or easy. So usually it takes a little longer, a little more digging. But it's an example of, to me, how people know. They may not know they have. They're an addict. They may not know they're an alcoholic, but they know they need to cut it back. Okay? By the time they even close to a point where they need to be talking, they know that, but maybe they don't know that they need to change friends, or maybe they don't know some details about it, but they know. And if you just find those seeds of desire and motivation and willingness, if you just focus on harvesting it out of them instead of trying to Push it in. Then whatever money or treatment that you give this person is going to take. It's just going to take. It's. The seed is going to take in the ground instead of just beating your head against a while. Because this, the situation with Jake, it's not just bad because his mom spent $34,000 on treatment and he relapsed within a week. It's bad because it's made it worse in some respects because now he's just really mad at his mom. Now he's just really dug in and he's really closed off to getting any kind of help because he's just ticked about being forced. So what that means is I've got to spend weeks with Jake just getting him to take that wall down, right? I've got to spend weeks with Jake, which, I mean cost money to come see me, too. So she's already spent this money and now she's paying that money. I'm assuming she's paying it. I'm guessing Jake's not paying it because, well, he's not working, so I'm sure she's paying it. So now I've got to go and do all that grammar, which I don't mind doing. I've done that my whole career. But it's maybe not the best way to have set it up because now I got to spend the first several weeks with him, just getting him to trust me, take the wall down, even get to the point where he'll, like, actually tolerate if I ask him about his drinking and without freaking out. And that. That takes a while. It just slows down the treatment process. In my. When I do coaching with people, 95% of all I'm doing is helping them find their motivation, helping them see what life is going to be like without it. Helping them to find their strengths inside and their way of doing it. It's a lot more like cheerleading and coaching, although it's not that sappy. But it's a lot more like that than it is about me teaching you skills or making you go to meetings or making you work steps, right? Like, it's. It's. It's literally me working on your mindset, me helping people come to terms with the idea of what they need to do and why they need to do it and how they're going to do it. And if you go about it in the right ways, it's a lot. It's a lot simpler. And then people find their own ways. People. People ask me all the time, like, I was on someone else's podcast recently. It was the podcast Till the Wheels Fall Off. Have y' all seen that podcast? It's actually a good one. Y' all should. Y' all should check it out. It's like a husband and a wife, and he's in recovery. And so they kind of like, talk about from both perspectives, which, you know, I'm a fan of. Anyways, I was on their podcast recently, and one of the questions was, is like, well, what do you. What do you think about the 12 steps? What do you think works the best? And I. The way I answered that is I like the 12 steps. Most of my friends and people I know, like, in my personal life that are in recovery got. Got in recovery. They got sober that way. A lot of the people I've worked with over the years, they really resist that kind of thing at first, but kind of eventually end up there. But the truth is, the people that I've seen have gotten sober every which way you can think of. It's not about which program is the right way to do it. It's about the decision to do it and the staying motivated to do it and the setting up some kind of system, whatever kind of system is going to work in order to keep you in the lines long enough for it to become easier and easier. And that's what I tell my clients. I'm like, this. This is going to hurt, but not for long, okay? And all you got to do is you just got to figure out how to get through this first couple of weeks without using. And I don't even have to tell them how to do it. I just say, well, distract yourself. I don't know. Let's get a plan. What are you going to do instead? And I'll let them come with a plan. And then I focus on keeping them energized about it, keeping them wanting to do it, and just helping them stay motivated. Because that's the part if treatment does anything wrong, that's the part they do wrong. It's not that their methods don't work. It's just that everybody, the family, the person, the treatment center, everybody forgets this most important part if this isn't there. And it's not just they figure it out and they understand it one time. Because people have those, like, moments of clarity, as I call them, these, like, moments where they get it. It's going to take more than one moment. This is something that has to be cultivated and grown, you know, like. Like tending to a fire, almost. That's what it's like. Until eventually it's it contend itself, but it needs some work on it. And just because somebody says, okay, that's it, I hate my life, I'm never going to do it again. I can't believe I destroyed everything. That's it. I'm going to do whatever. They mean it when they say it. But those flames still have to be tended to or else I don't care where you send them. I don't care how much money you pay. I don't care what kind of best psychiatrist most known undersign or whatever. I don't care if they go meet with Gabor Mate himself. If they're not in the space to do it and they're spending most of their time being mad about the fact that they're there. It's not going to take. So that's why most treatment doesn't work. Not because the treatment doesn't work, but because the soil isn't like ready for the seeds to be planted. And then also like, you know, and I talk about this some too, is I do think it can help a lot to think carefully about not just what kind of treatment is this person ready for, but what's going to mesh with their personality the best. All of it works. Any of the plans work. But there are some plans that people will naturally because of who they are in their personality, they'll just grab onto you faster and easier because it seems more natural to who they are. So I do think customizing things in that way can be super helpful. But you have to really know a person well enough to, to know that. Now if you're a family member, you do know a person well enough to know that. So you, you, you might be on board with that part, but you probably not quite tilling the ground long enough to make it stick. Now I said before at the beginning that I really don't think success rates are as bad as they look. Because even, even Jake, even these stories that I'm telling you where someone went to treatment and they relapsed a week out, I think, I think a lot of those seeds that get planted in treatment, they do eventually take like those seeds that have been planted in Jake, they are there. He actually knows exactly how to be sober. Right? He just needs to decide that that's what he needs to do. So I consider that my job is to get him to decide that. And then once I get inside that he actually has all those skills now because he can't unknow what he knows. So even though it looks on the eye outside like, that was a waste of money. I don't really think it was a waste of money. I think the timing wasn't great, and I think it's gonna cost a lot more money because it's kind of like we're doing it in reverse now, like, tilling the ground and try to get the seeds that are already thrown on there to get in there. So I don't think it's a waste of money. And most people have to get help and get treatment or go to counseling. You know, all the different ways they. People get help, they have to do it, like, a lot of different ways before it really takes. But that doesn't mean that the first three things you tried didn't work at all. Right. It's just a learning process. And it's like, maybe they learned two or three things and things got better, but they weren't all the way better. So I feel like the way that we measure success is a little off. And when we discount and we say, well, that person drank after they did that, or they went and got hyped or whatever, it doesn't mean it didn't work. So I really am not a big fan of looking at those statistics. And I. And I really. It just rubs me wrong when people throw out that negativity of, like, 1 in 10 people are gonna make it in this room. Like, I've literally been in. I've worked in rehab, okay, long. For, like, more than 10 years. Okay? And so I've been in the room where counselors are saying, look around this room. There's 20 of you in here. One, maybe two, maybe two of y' all will actually make it. I'm like, why are we telling people that? That's not motivating. We think it's going to make the person think, oh, I'm going to be the one. It does not make the person think that, because they're probably not even listening to you because they're mad about being there to begin with, okay? So it just doesn't. It doesn't work. The fear tactic is not the tactic. It doesn't work. Now, I do think things have to get a little rough for people. I don't think they have to hit bottom. But if you ask the right questions and you create the right kind of safety, they'll tell you how it's not going to work. Like, like the teenager that I told you about, I literally was talking to him for five minutes. He didn't even want to talk to me, but I was talking to him five minutes. He told me every reason why he needed to stop. He told me how he thought he needed to go about it. He told me how he's made progress, but it wasn't perfect and what he needed to shift about his plan to get to the next step of it. It was, I mean, honestly, it was kind of awesome because I just got to sit there and like, it's not usually that easy. So it was kind of fun for me. Just listen to him. And this was in a teenager, okay, like not even 20. So it's in there. You just have to figure out how to get it out. Treatment outcomes are not as bad as they look, but they could be a lot better if we looked at the motivation and desire and we quit trying to just tell someone how to do it before they realize that they need to do it or that they can do it right. And you, you see this kind of thing in 12 steps and celebrate recovery and everything else too. It's not just treatment centers. You, you see this kind of thing in, in all kind of ways. There's this general attitude that's like, it's here when you're ready. Maybe you just haven't suffered enough. Come back when you're willing. And there's this sort of attitude of like, whatever, if you want to be a dumbass, go be a dumbass. I mean, that's generally what the attitude's like. Even with like a lot of addiction counselors, especially the ones that are in recovery. I hate to say that, but that's true because, because they know it's gonna go, you're gonna go out there, you're gonna scrape yourself up some more, and you're gonna come back. It's just the way they say it. But you don't have to say that. Mean you don't have to say that. Harsh. You can find another way to say it. But that's, that's the general attitude. And I think that attitude actually keeps a lot of people with their, you know, in more of a lockdown, more of a defensive posture. If we can come at people with a different attitude, it's easier to get them open. I would love it if those of you that are listening would, would tell me your experience. Have you been to treatment? How many different things have you tried? If you've got a family member who's done. How many different things have you tried to get your family member today? Probably counseling, probably psychiatrist, probably intensive outpatient, probably detox, probably a 30 day inpatient stay. Maybe they've done sober living six times. I want to hear your experience with how much help does it take? What is the right help? What did you try? What worked, what didn't work? What's your take on this issue? Because it's a big issue and it is important to talk about. I think spending money on treatment is money well spent, but you got to be with anything. You got to be strategic about how do you invest your time and your energy and your money just like anything else, right? You need to think about what is the right place, person, system, and is it the right time. And when you. When you invest in it that way, it just works a lot faster. All right, we are almost to the point. We're going to hear from some of you guys that are on here that are watching live. And if you're watching on the playback, we're glad you're here too. Definitely give me your thoughts in the comments, because I come back and read all of them, and I respond to a lot of them, maybe most of them. We don't have Brie behind the scenes today, so I'm gonna be doing the moderating. So I'm definitely gonna have to put my granny glasses on now because I can't. I can see that y' all are there, but I can't see what you're saying. I'm gonna answer some questions, and I always tell you this, but there are more resources in the description. Oh, in fact, I put in the description this time. I put a link to download my. I call it the Insider's Addiction Treatment Guide, which kind of explains all those different levels of care, how much they cost, what insurance typically pays for, what it doesn't. Pros and cons. Between paid treatment and free treatment, it goes through, like, all the different options and helps you to sort of understand it, because I can throw out these terms, and you may be like, what does IOP mean? What does PHP mean? Like, what is she talking about? And that's just because it's just like, lingo, right? But it goes through all of that just like, technical information, because there's all kinds of options out there, and when you understand what it is, then you can more strategically pick. So, you guys, the link is for. That is in the description. You can download it. It is totally free, and it just kind of gives you the overview of what's out there and what to be looking for. Sometimes people say, well, what's the best place? Do you know a place in New Mexico? Do you know a place in Alberta? You know, like, I'm. I don't know, because I don't live in that area, but I can tell you what kind of thing to look for. And so a lot of that information is in that guide. And then of course, if, if your issue is you are trying to get an addicted loved one ready to go to treatment, but you know, they're not quite motivated yet. And you don't always. $34,000, then you need to be looking at the invisible intervention. If you, if your person is. Or you are like, I know I need to make this change. I've tried some things already. It's not working. And you just need someone to kind of hold your hand. Then maybe look at the strengths based coaching. We just started enrolling people for February. I think we've put two people in. I know there's. I know there's at least one spot coming open in the next couple weeks, so you can check that out if you want to. Let's take some questions. Let's hear from you guys. See here. I'm going to scroll up here. I'm going to. It's been a while since I had to do this myself. I'm like, spoiled from Bri. She's out with the flu. Definitely makes me miss her. Eliza says hi. I don't know what to do. My daughter is in jail and they are holding her until February 10th because she missed four court dates on a misdemeanor DUI on 5K. Is that like, does that mean, like she owes $5,000, like a fine or something? I don't know. Anyways, she has not returned calls for a month and in jail now. Had an appearance yesterday. 17 years of dealing with this. I am tired, Eliza. I don't. I hear what you're saying. I hear your frustration. And actually, if she's missed that many, like, court appearances, I hate to say it, but it's probably good that they have her in there because she's clearly not going to show up on her own. My guess is your question is something about, you know, how do I help? But you haven't talked to her. At least that's what you're saying is you haven't talked to her. And I don't know if that's because she hasn't reached out to you, if it's because you've just been tired and you needed a break, because you're definitely saying that you're tired. It's been a long time. And it is okay, Eliza, to take a step back, right? And, and let someone figure it out. You can. Doesn't mean you've Outed them forever. But taking a break is okay. So I think your question is, how do I help? But it's hard to. It's hard for me to answer that. If you don't have any communication with them, if you have had some communication with them, with your daughter, let me know what that is. You know, like it's helpful for me to make like, is she expressing change talk? Is she seeming the action stage of change? Does she seem remorseful? Is she just pissed about being there? And this is a bunch of load of crap. Then if you tell me where the starting point is, I can probably give you a little more guidance on, on where to start from. Oh, here's some more from Eliza. Says she got clean recently for a couple of months yet relapsing some. Okay. So it's not like she's in complete denial. She did get clean. But there's some relapsing. And my guess is whatever was going on was pretty big for her to miss five court appearances because that's, that's a lot of unmanageability. Let's see here. Mike says my ex fiance's son died from an overdose at 20 and then nine months later her husband died. Her husband died nine months later. Someone always has it worse. People use excuses to use drugs and alcohol. Okay, hold on a second. I'm confused. Let me read that again. My ex fiance's son overdosed at the age of 20 and nine months later her husband died. Is it, is what you're saying, Mike, like the, the husband died of like an overdose or something drug related too? Or you're saying your ex fiance is using drugs or has an addiction problem because of these deaths. I'm not, I'm not 100 sure which one you're saying, but you're definitely frustrated because someone in this story is using grief as an excuse for drugs and alcohol. You're right. 100 agree. And this kind of reminds me of Jake. Right. Does he have every reason to be sad, upset, heartbroken? Yeah. A million percent reasons. I give it to him. Right. And Izzy maybe using that as excuse. Maybe a little bit. But I can tell you it doesn't help to come at someone and say you're just using that as an excuse. If you express empathy, like with Jake, if I just let him talk about the husband and wife and I'll say, dude, no wonder that's really bad, then it's not going to take two or three more sense of dialogue before Jake is going to come along and say, yeah, but I know drinking isn't the answer. And I know I got to do something about it. Right. But if you push someone and you're like, you're just making excuses, you know, I know it's bad, but other people have it worse, then they'll just dig in more. So I hear you. It's frustrating, but there's. If you want to get them to see the truth, come at it with empathy. Gt says GT something I listen to you in your videos all week, about 40 hours. Said you're listening to me like a full time job. I don't know why. That cracks me up. That's like a lot. Like, I don't, I love it that you listen to my videos, but I don't, I don't know anyone needs to listen to me. 40 hours a week, that's just a lot. If it helps, I'm glad. Mike says, some people find a way, some people find an excuse. That's true. Mike. Mike, I hear you. And I don't know if you're new here. Your name is kind of new to me, but I haven't managed the comments in a while. I hear you, but that's the kind of attitude and statement that you sometimes hear from like a sponsor or you sometimes hear from like an addiction counselor. And you're right, but the statement itself and the attitude that's coming with it and isn't going to help someone make a different choice. So you're right and I agree. But let's say it a different way. Gt says, my wife is addicted to Xanax. She came home from the hospital 1st of September from an overdose and had been slipping. I have been hovering and searching for anything and everything. Oh yeah, that's why you're watching the video so much. Yeah. Because you're in freak out mode. Right. You probably have to go back and watch the videos where I talk about stop trying to find the evidence. Just put that one on the replay because it's hard. And you really have to like go against all your instincts because looking for and trying to find the evidence, what you're, you're, what you're trying to do when you do that is the person is probably telling you that they're not doing it or they're not doing as bad as you think they're doing it. And you're trying to find the evidence to prove to them that you know what's up. And that really is more about getting into it with them because they're trying to gaslight you or something. You're just trying to prove to them. No, you're wrong. I know. And here's the evidence. But you don't have to prove your case. And it doesn't, it doesn't help because you know this already. You find all the evidence in the world and it's, it's not going to get them to be like, oh, you're right, I did. I totally lied about everything. I did all that. I need to go back to treatment. It's just not good. They're just not going to do it. Let's see here. Rachel says, my husband tells me I wake him up at night because I move a lot in my sleep. I ask him what he thinks we should do about it and he says, not a clue. I think maybe different beds, but he says no. Did I miss something, Rachel? I mean, I hear what you're saying, but my guess is connected to this topic. Oh, Rachel. Yes. You can't make a person do anything when you're not ready. I'm looking for some previous comments from Rachel. I'm going to keep looking, Rachel, but I think there's probably more to this or I'm sure there's more to this issue and how it connects to the topic here. See? BB says question. Thank you for putting the little cue before that. That helps me when you've done all the things but the spouse is so depressed, they've lost so much jobs, health, been in the icu, can't go more than hours without alcohol or seizures. Won't listen as mad at me. Okay, this is good. This is good because I'm glad you said this because this is a situation where actually forcing someone into treatment might actually be the right thing to do. Last week we talked about this forced treatment work and there are certain circumstances when someone gets this far bad. See this, this person you're describing, they're not in denial, right? Most of the time the treatment doesn't work because someone is in denial. Maybe they realize they have the problem, but they don't think it's so bad they need to stop completely. Maybe they realize they have a problem, but they don't think they need to stop everything. Maybe they really have a problem, but they don't think they need to stop forever. Just like a couple weeks. Those are people in denial and pushing people and forcing those people into doing it isn't going to work. But when someone is this far gone and it's not like they're in denial, but. But they could just be like using so much, they're. You don't even have any time to Talk to them when they're halfway sober, like their brain just isn't even working or they're so depressed like what you're saying, or they cannot stop or they're gonna like go into seizures, which is super dangerous. Right? This is a situation where if you, if, if you can, if someone gets like court ordered treatment or you can leverage them in, if you can keep them there long enough. If you didn't watch last week, definitely watch last week, because a week's not gonna do it. But if you can keep them there long enough so that they can get sober and their brain clicks back in, then that, that kind of situation can work. Because that ground is actually tilled, even though it doesn't seem like it's tilled. It may, it might be over tilled or whatever, like, but this person knows they have a big problem and they know they need to stop. And if we keep them in there long enough and they stay stopped long enough, they might figure out that maybe they can stay stopped and maybe life is better without it. So that's a situation where I might push harder. As long as what I was trying to get the person to do was that's going to need an inpatient treatment and it's going to need a good amount of inpatient treatment. Like more than just like a five day detox. Bibi says he gets mad at me every time I call 911 for serious health issues. The seizures because of the withdrawal won't go to any kind of treatment. They don't remember how bad they can get. I'm working with a guy right now, baby, who was exactly like this, I think actually maybe worse. Like, and he eventually got forced into treatment after he wound up in the hospital with seizures, like for the fourth time or something, right? Like really bad. I mean, this person was so I'm, I tell him every time, I'm like, I cannot believe you're alive. Like, I really. He's like, I know, right? This person did not want to go. They went kicking and screaming, but luckily, based on the circumstances, they got held in there long enough that some of it started to take. So if there's ways you can push it. If I were in your situation, baby, I would push it. If you're listening to me and your person is still in denial and maybe it's that bad. Like Jake's situation was bad. Did he need that much treatment? He did, but he wasn't ready for it. This is slightly different. And that's where you kind of have to really think through all the different, like, pieces to the story. If you're. If you're in a situation where you're not sure, should I push? Should I wait? How should I push? Or whatever. Then our family counselors, Kim and Campbell, that's what they do. They're really good at that. We have. They have, like, a family group coaching community where they come on every week, they answer questions. They can definitely help you if you're. If you got some, like, little details about your case that you're like, yeah, Amber, I hear what you're saying, but what about this? What about that? You definitely want to talk to them. Let's see here. Sasha, Sasha. Sasha says, start taking your addicts to a neurologist first. Before rehab, I did my brain scan, the Amen Clinic. It was $4200 in. Best investment for myself. I am a big fan of the Amen Clinic, too. If you have. If you're not familiar with that, there's this guy. His name is Dr. Daniel Amen. Like, Amen a m e n. And he's pretty well known. He's written some really cool books, and he has a few clinics. He has one in Georgia. I've actually went down there and seen it. Another thing, there's one in California. There's probably more of these places, but they actually look at all of the medical stuff. They look at what is actually happening in your brain. A lot of what Dr. Amen talks about is how, like, head trauma, sometimes from childhood, like, maybe you had a concussion, sometimes that's doing something to your brain. Like, maybe there's a scar tissue there and you don't even know it. Right. And I really like that. And I think, think, especially if you're dealing with a super complicated case and you've tried some things, it's not working. I agree. It's. It's worth it because now you're, you know, like, medical stuff, so much easier because you can freaking take an X ray. You know exactly what it is. You know exactly how to fix it. So this is as close as you can get to that medical way of doing it. With mental health, it's not just addiction, but mental health, any of that stuff. I'm a big fan. Check out his books. If you have the money, and it's complicated, you want to go do that? I'm all for it. Kelly says, in your experience, is there any one issue that makes people extremely resistant to admitting the problem or accepting help, I. E. Growing up in a very controlling household? Now, hold on. Wait. There's more. I don't see the rest. I know there's more, but the answer to your question, Kelly, is this. Yes, there are many factors that make someone more resistant. One of the factors is for people, almost all people, the harder you push, the more they resist. But, but maybe you're not even pushing. But some people are just more rebellious and oppositional in general. And so they just resist just for the sake of resist. Like they literally resist everything. Like not just this, but that. It's just their personality, right? Yes. Some people are a lot more reluctant to admitting a flaw. I would have to know, you know, my brain immediately starts thinking about, well, how would I go about helping this? I'd have to know more about this person, what their personality is. Maybe we want to not call it addiction. Maybe we'll call it something else that's more palatable. Maybe there's, there's a different avenue. These are the things that, that I figure out when I'm talking to people is like, what is this person based on who they are? And this is where the fine tuning comes in, right? Like about what their belief system is and who they are. What do they care about? What do they value? And taking in all that information, that's how I come up with a plan to. How do I get through to this person? Because some people are more hard headed than the others. But let me tell you this, I don't know if this helps you feel better or not, but the people that are less hard headed, in fact, the people that aren't hard headed at all, they're the worst. They're not really the worst, but they're the most difficult in my mind because yeah, they go along, they admit it, they say all the things that you want to hear, but they don't follow through these hard headed ones. Once you get through to them and once you finally get them to acknowledge it and see it, their, their stubbornness will start working for you because then they'll dig in and they'll, they'll fix the problem. Like they're like, f that I'm gonna fix it. You know, they get stubborn in the other way. So they're difficult up front, but they stick. And the ones that are just, they're a lot more people pleasing. They're really just, they may seem less hard headed and they may be like, yeah, you're right. And they'll say that to you for months and months and months before they actually take action. And that's, that's, that's frustrating. They say the right things, but they won't do it. So pros and cons of being hard headed. So she says yes. The Daniel Amen book. Change your brain, change your life. That's the first one I read. And then he has that really good one about add like the seven types. 80. I really like that one too. Let's see here. Oh, Christine has a question. Can one person plant seeds by uplifting cards and notes even when other family members disagree with this and are actually fighting with the alcoholic? I think it depends on the person and this is a really good question. It depends on the their personality. I do think that sometimes you can be sort of too sappy, too nice about it. It comes across kind of like, like your mom and she's like, oh, you're so beautiful. And she's just like lays it on. It's like, it's like syrupy. Too, too sweet. It's like, what? Actually I do think like sending someone an encouraging message every now and then helps. Sending someone kind of a funny encouraging message. You can help being like agreeing with them, being like, damn, they're really on your ass about this. Like empathize with them about the other family members. Those are all things that can work. And even though I'm, I'm positive and I say I'm like someone's cheerleader, I'm not cheerleadery in that like rah rah kind of way. Because it has to be genuine and just like a bunch of super. You can do it. It reminds me of what's that old Adam Sandler movie was like, you can do it. Like it's gonna have to be more than that. But yes, send a nice message. Send a funny message. Send a message. It's just a connection message. It's just like an inside thing between you and them. Just try to connect to them. Miss Curry's neighborhood says needed to be said. Amber, for goodness sake, please stop bullying addicts. Negativity doesn't work. Hey, I'm not saying they don't deserve it. I'm not saying I don't want to sometimes. But I am agreeing with you. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Anissa says it's important to vet any place. Too many cookie cutter places. Most focus on AA and not enough on N A. And they're very different addictions. Yeah, I mean, I do think it's important to vet a place. And the best way to do it is if you know people that have been there. Like word of mouth is the best way you can ask them about their success rate statistics. But you already know how I feel about that. I'm like, how did they get those numbers? What do they really mean? So knowing someone that's been there before and you know what makes it successful, it's not whether they do ANA or aa. It's whether or not a person felt good about the place they were at. Because if they feel good about the place they're at, they're gonna grab onto AA or NA or SMART Recovery or whatever, or cognitive behavioral therapy or whatever else is throwing at them, because it's about, can we pull this person in more than it is about the model that they have really, really is. At home with. Grace says, I'm glad you're saying this. My person isn't open to any help. I made ultimatums, and of course they didn't last and failed quickly. Okay. Inside of our so true. Amen to that, Grace. Ultimatums can work in a very specific circumstance. Inside our invisible intervention course, I sort of teach you how to, like, calculate, like, mathematically how close your person is about whether or not ultimatum will work. You have really good trust with them. You've, like, they actually like you. They don't want to lose relationship with you. They actually appreciate the things. Ultimatum might work. You can push someone. Like, an ultimatum might work temporarily in most situations, but it won't work ultimately unless some of those other things are in place. Yeah. You know, you might can say like, like, like Jake's mom can say, you got to go to meeting every day or see your Amber else. And yeah, he. He's going to a meeting and he started seeing me, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work or take. So sometimes people, you can force compliance, but you can't force recovery. Right. Sometimes people need a little push to get there, but those other circumstances, you still gotta plow till the ground before you do it if you want it to work. Let's see. Lots of comments. Glendy says my addicted loved one refuses to go to counseling because she doesn't like talking about herself. She does realize things need to change. She wants to change. She's stuck at that point. Okay, then she might be a really good person that would like to listen to a podcast or read a book or actually, she might actually enjoy just going to, like, a group where she could just sit in the background and listen to other people talk because it's weird to talk about herself. So this is a great example of how customizing treatment to the person can sometimes work. Pshaw says, craft says. And Craft, for those of you Aren't familiar is stand. It's like an acronym. It stands for community reinforcement and family training. I think it's training, not therapy. And I've got a couple videos on here about craft. But it's, it's definitely the approach that probably most closely aligns with. With our approach. I like the craft philosophy. I'm definitely on board. But she says CRAFT says to leave the. To leave once the alcoholic starts drinking. But they say they feel neglected, don't want to reward bad behavior. So what should we do? Okay, I got you. So with the craft method, basically they're saying not to like, negatively reinforce unwanted behavior, positively reinforce good behavior. And basically, and the way I say it is just be neutral. And, and I do feel like this, this is hard because it's like, basically the craft method would say, let's say your husband comes home drinking. Craft method would say, hey, just like go in another room and read a book or whatever. But. But sometimes what will happen with people who have addictions is it's just they're just trying to start a fight with you and they're just using anything against you. And so they're like, oh, now you don't want to be around me. I get it. They may do that. And I still think it's probably the better thing to do than to engage with them negatively. But sometimes they will hold that against you. And so sometimes you may just have to find a way of saying that's what like, like, you may have to be like, oh, I got this work to do. So they don't feel like you're purposely. Like sometimes there's a way around it or whatever, but it's still better than the other thing. Martha says, my husband is currently in a 28 day rehab. I'm scared he's coming home and will relapse. He drinks and takes. I think that's clonazepam, which is a benzodiazepine, sort of like Xanax. I would say, Martha, if I were talking to you, if you and I were talking together, like in a consultation, I would have questions for you. I would say, what's his attitude? Like, how long has he been there? Like, is he fighting and trying to come home? Like, there are some signs. You can see a lot of times when people first go to treatment, within the first week or so, they're like, I hate it here. Come get me out. And I'm always like, just hold firm. Like, because most of the time that passes. And then people are like, actually, I met some cool people Here, you know, they kind of like warm into it, but. But there are some signs you could look for that might give you more inclination about, you know, not really whether or not they're going to relapse, but whether or not they're going to come out and immediately use. You might could look for some signs of that. And there are some things you can do. I've got some videos on here, Martha, about how to support someone in early recovery, how to support someone who just got out of treatment. So check those out because they may be helpful for you and it may at least make you. I know you're going to be nervous, but it might make you feel like at least more empowered. You're like, okay, I know what to do. I got the tools into a box. I know what to do in this situation. In this situation, that situation. Okay, so check those out. Okay. Ms. Curry's neighborhood has a question here. Can you speak to the importance for loved ones balanced life to model healthy living and keep their own inner peace at home? Yes. Now, I'm, I'm kind of known for saying balance is overrated because I feel like it's such a counseling thing to say. You just need to be imbalanced. I'm like addict people are just never in balance. I'm one of those people myself. But what, what you are saying is, is, is I agree with, is kind of different. What you're saying is, the way I would say it is get some other things going on in your life because you need the distraction. So if you're working the invisible intervention, then freaking go back to school, start a volunteer, do something else. Because one of the best ways to keep you healthy is to stop yourself from obsessing about it 24 7. And if you don't put some other things in your life, it's really hard not to. It is the same thing I would tell someone who was in those first few days of stance over. Keep yourself busy, put some other things in your life. It's not so much I'm like, about being balanced, but honestly, it's about keeping your mind from going into that terrible rabbit hole. So, yes, start taking back care of yourself. Start, you know, me hanging out with your friends again. Go back to yoga, take the class, go back to school. You know, like, start a big project, remodel something. If you have the money, I don't know, like, do something else so that you. Because otherwise you're just gonna like obsessively think about it. That's what I think you're saying. And I completely agree. Gt says there are several comments for me. Maybe try to catch them all. I, I know I, I know we got some of them. Gt I know we didn't get all of them, but it's hard to catch them all in a chat if they're, if it's like a super in depth situation you may want to think about, like, you may want to take some time to individually like just get a whole thorough like consultation. What do I do? Give us all the details or whatever. But I know we got to some of those. I don't know how to say his name. BG Baji. I don't know. Anyways, this person says my addicted loved one speaks the change talk after particularly bad benders when he's feeling awful. And then I feel hopeful and then he will not carry through with the plan of at my end of my patience and my guilt. Oh my goodness, this is so common. This happens a lot. These are, these are the little windows that open, right? And they're like, I'm never doing that again. I can't believe that happened. I'm sick of this. They say all the things I'm going to change. What you want to do when you get that change talk is, and I think you're getting some of this, which is like they're coming up with a plan but they won't follow through. Sometimes what you have to do is you have to, like, if they'll let you, you know, you can say, hey, can I make you an appointment with, can I get this book for you? Can I download this podcast on your phone? Like get a step. And then you, if it's a step that you can take, take it for them. I know a lot of people will tell you, like they have to make all the steps, but a lot of times a person that's in that addicted state, they're just not in the frame of mind to put all those pieces together. So even though they mean it when they say it, if it's going to take 50 phone calls and all these things and you know, the researching and all that figured out, like they're going to lose that window before they get it all done. And that's a lot of times what happens when they fall through the cracks, right? It's a flame. You can figure out how to keep it going. Go ahead. And if it's possible, go ahead, put some things in place. You know, you can't do it for them, but you can make the phone calls for them, right? And you can say, I looked into it and there's these options. You can call the insurance company, you can find the right video for them to listen. So any of that, like behind the scenes stuff you can do, see if you can put that in place for them. Because you're right, they get to that moment, but then either they stay sober long enough and they're like, I got this, and then they fall back into it, or they say all the right things, but then they're like in withdrawal and they're holding it, holding it, holding it together. And then they just can't stand anymore and they fall back. So we, we need to put some things in place as fast as possible. So do a lot of the research before the moment. So when the moment happens, you're like, ready, sitting on go. Let's see. Amber Lowe says, can you give tips for helping encourage recovery when they have been in and out of it for years? Again, Amber, it depends on personality. I can tell you the way I, my first thought was, the way I would say it is, I'm like, dude, you're expert. You know more about than I do. What you learn, what works for you, what doesn't work for you. And I would just kind of build on top of the fact that they've been in and out of it or whatever. I would use their knowledge and their strength and I wouldn't, I wouldn't just avoid the idea of it. I'm like, yeah, you done tried at all. Like, you're expert. Let's figure this out. You know, you got this. I would kind of go in that direction, but that's my style because I'm usually used to humor and sarcasm. I might not do that based on their personality or if they're like super depressed about it. Actually, I might, I don't know, it would depend. But use whatever's there to guide you, right? Be like, hey, out of the past 10 years, you've actually had seven of them sober. You've had a lot of relapses. Whatever is there, grab a hold of that and use it for momentum. Kristen says, I can attest that the resistance is real. And even when someone knows there might be a problem, it usually takes some kind of catalyst to take recovery seriously and personally, 100%. Kristen, that is right? Even when a person knows they have a problem, there's levels of that, right? How bad is the problem? What steps do I really need to take? And there's just some trial and error to it, right? It's not, it's not so much that they just aren't taking it serious, but it is definitely a learning process. All right, guys, we are out of time. I have had a lot of fun talking with you today. You've asked great questions as always. Thank you to those of you who showed up live. Thank you for those of you who joined us on the replay. And don't forget, there are resources in the description. And I will see you guys next Thursday. We are live every Thursday at 1 Eastern. Bye, everybody.