How Many Chances Should You Give Someone Who Has An Addiction?

I find that usually just about the time that I am ready to give up on my client. And I think, okay, this is it. Like, I cannot even help you anymore. Like, you have dug yourself into the biggest hole ever, and I can't. There's nothing else I can do for you. That is usually about five minutes after that is usually when they turn the corner. So let me help you sort of get the picture of how this actually works. Because this has happened so many times. People always ask me this question, like, how long is it going to take? Or when are they going to get it? And this is what I've seen the pattern over and over and over again. In our. In my practice, in my private practice, we're set up to help whole family systems. So the way that works is we usually give the person with the addiction a counselor. Historically, that's me. And we give the family a counselor that's like my other people, Scott or Kim or Campbell. And we work as a team to help families. We call it lawyering. And I always say, like, I'm the defense attorney because usually the way it works is my person, because usually addictive person has done. Done some bad things. And it is my job to help them dig out of the hole. And so when I first start seeing them, you know, I start this process of understanding them and building trust and building rapport and. And naturally, as part of this process, there's a lot of ups and downs.

They.

There's a lot of trial and error. And I'm. I'm totally cool with that. I get that, like, they have to go through and check off what's going to work and what's not going to work and figure these things out, which doesn't bother me at all. But it is a little bit similar to the family because you're on this, like, roller coaster with them, right? And they do good for a while, and you get your hopes up, and then not so good for a while. And then they do good for a while and you're excited again, and then not so good for a while. Meanwhile, as all this is going on, it's my job to sort of not just guide them, because that's a lot of what I do is I guide them. But a big piece of what I do is sort of have their back with their family and all the messes that they've got going on in their life. And so, you know, we'll have to have these family sessions. And I. And I go in and I'm like, okay. Like, I know he's like, not doing great, but we got. We did this and he's talking about this. He did this. And so I'm just like giving all the evidence that I can give to kind of have their back and, and help their family see that they really are. And this usually goes on for some months until we get to this point where one of my family counselors comes to me and says, hey, can we. Can we have a family session for so and so family or client or whatever? And I'm like, when. When they say this, it's usually because my person's done. Done something else, like, really not good. And the family is really like at their breaking point. And I usually, when I get to the point that I'm like, dude, I got nothing else. Like, I don't want to have another family session because nothing is going to happen except my client and I are going to go in there and get found guilty, basically. And like, there's nothing that I can even say at this point to defend them because I've done like, like, like co sign for them so many times that my credibility is ruined at this point. And, and honestly, when it gets to this point, I'm like, doubting my own self. I feel like I failed them. I feel like maybe this really doesn't work. Even though I come on here and I sound really confident, almost every case that I work gets to a point where I think this isn't going to work. And I'm literally when I find myself saying to my family counselors, like, I got nothing. Like, I got nothing else to help. I don't even know what to say anymore. Usually five minutes after that, that's when they'll get it and like, really get it, like for good. Like, they get it. And I don't know why, but that seems to be the pattern. It actually reminds me of this client, like this client I had a couple years back named Jeff. Now when I first started seeing Jeff, he's kind of quiet guy, really shy, pretty introverted, but he was like a good guy. You know, he was a. He was a musician. He played in this, like, Christian band. And that's how he met his wife. He had a wife and he had two sons. And so I started seeing Jeff. And at first when I would talk to Jeff, it felt like Ollie would tell me was what he thought he should say. Like, you know, like, just tell me, like, all the right answers. But it was really, I figured out really more than just like, I'm just telling my counselor the right answers because I'm you know, trying to fool her, really. It's like he wouldn't even connect with his own feelings or opinions about things. Like, he. He would always be telling himself, like, I should be stronger, I should do this, I should do that. And because he wouldn't acknowledge his own feelings and stuff, that was like the thing that kept him falling back in the drug use. Now, Jeff's drug use was no joke, okay? Like, this guy was a good guy. Like, he was super sweet and quiet and shy, but he would, like, abuse anything. When I was, like, getting his substance abuse history, he was telling me all the things he abused. I'm like, you abuse that? Like, no one abuses that. Why are you even abusing that? Like, that doesn't even do anything. This guy would just like abuse aspirin or something. I don't know. I was like, my God, Jeff. And I mean, he was such a good guy. And he would come and he would tell me how he just really wanted to be a good husband. He really wanted to be a good father. And I knew, like, he meant this in his heart and he would do good for a while. He would just stay clean and sober. And then he would fall off the cliff. And when he would fall, he would fall. And he even a couple of times even went to like his in laws house, like his wife's parents house, and stole medicine out of their medicine cabinet. And then that came out and then we had to have film a session about that, that. And then they got a lock box and we thought it was solved. And then a few months later happened again, had to have another family session about that. And you know, I'm trying. He'll do good for a while. And then finally after one of these big falls, you know, his wife was like, that's it. Like, I'm done, I'm out. And. And so he has to, like, leave. He has to get his own apartment. And she's still coming to therapy and he's still coming. So they haven't really given up, but he's out. And at this point I'm like, like, they're done. Like, I didn't really give up on him getting sober, but I thought, like, his wife is done, like, and honestly, I couldn't. I couldn't blame her, like, as much as I was in his corner, like, if I was married to him and he was doing that to me, like, because, you know, she had these kids to think about. And at this point it was like, am I putting my kids in jeopardy? You know, like, am I doing the wrong thing, you know, So I didn't really blame her, but I felt bad for him at the same time. And then all during that time, I feel, like, inadequate as the counselor, because I feel like everyone's, like, looking at me to fix this problem. And then right about then, when I'm pretty much just like, I got nothing, then he starts doing good, and then him and the wife start talking, and then he moves back in. And Jeff has been doing very, very excellent for several years now. Doing great. His business is doing great. His family's doing great. I still see him every now and then just for maintenance. And he comes in and he talks to me about what's going on in his family and what's going on his business, and he turns around, and that's is what keeps me doing this kind of work, because people do turn it around. But I'm telling you, it's usually, like, just past the point when even me, like, I'm like, the most hopeful for. I'm like their defense attorney. I'm like their lawyer. I'm like the one that has their back when everybody else doesn't give up on them. And when it gets to the point where I'm just like, in my head, I'm like, I don't think this is gonna make it, then they make it and they turn around. And I see this time and time and time again. So I know as a family member, you know when your loved one is struggling, you're struggling, too. And you're on this roller coaster with them, and you're thinking, like, good gosh, how many chances should I give them? And I don't have a solid answer. Like, I don't have a number answer for you as far as how many chances you should give them. Because I can promise you it takes a lot of trial and error. Like, it's going to take more than once or twice for a person to figure it out. Sometimes it takes four or five times. Sometimes it takes eight or nine times. But most of the time, I mean, with the families that engage with us, the person usually almost always does turn it around. It's just about what's going to happen in between and how much can the family tolerate. Now, as a family member, if you will have healthy boundaries and you will try really hard not to get on the roller coaster with them, you'll be able to tolerate their ups and downs or more, because you're not on that roller coaster with them. And if you just keep your steady and you hold your boundaries and you do like the things like we teach you on, on these videos and an invisible intervention and in your sessions and stuff, you, you hold your steady, you can tolerate as they figure it out. So you'll be able to give them more chances if you keep yourself healthy. Now there is a time where no matter what, no matter how much I'm rooting for my client and how much I want someone to turn it around, where there are some situations where the family really does need to just sort of like back off. Maybe not forever, but they need to get some space and distance between them and this person for, for a while. And I have a video which I'll link up here at the end that will tell you exactly what those circumstances are. And they're big, major, like these are no go areas. You know, it's one thing to, to hang in there with somebody while they figured out and they try this and they try that, but there are some bound, there are some things that really you can't tolerate or deal with. And like I said, I have a whole bound. I mean, I have a video about that and I'll link it up here for you. So in just a minute I am going to answer a couple of questions from you guys. And last week we did this really cool thing where I'll let somebody, one of the live viewers, those of you that are watching out, come on with me. Which means you'll be on live and, and talk to me for a few minutes about your situation and get some advice. And so I'm going to put that offer out again. I don't know how many people will want to do that because it will put your face on here with me. And so that's public, it's on YouTube. So be aware that, that, that is the case when that happens. And it works just like I'll send you a link and you just click the link and as long as you have decent Internet reception, you can do it from your phone or your laptop, you should be fine. So you, if you want to do that, what I want you to do is in the chat put a number from 1 to 100 and then I've got like a random number picker app on my phone and we will take the person that gets closest to the number that the, that the phone picks and that's how we'll, we'll do that. It worked good last time. And so if there's anybody that wants to do that this time, we will do that again. In the meantime, I'm going to answer a couple of questions. I actually Have a question here from Alexandria, who said that she was in Australia, so she won't be able to be on the live stream, but we'll be watching it in the replay. So let me answer Andrea's question. Andrea said, or Alexandria says, I just moved out after my wife relapsed again. When she relapses, she mistreats me. Last time, police took out a restraining order. I love her, but how can I tell if she's truly committed to change? And this is actually. Alexandra, this is like the perfect question for today's topic, right? Because it's like, how many chances should I give this person? And I can tell that you love your wife and that you want this to work. But some things are happening that are going across the line because if the police took out a restraining order, that tells me that there's some major, like, safety issue happening and that there's some abuse happening, domestic violence stuff happening. And that's one of the things, like if you watch the video that that's the out of bounds things. When someone is literally putting your safety or your kids safety at risk, those are the no go zones. And if you can't be safe in the house with someone, your kids can't be safe in the house with someone, then that, that's one of those no go zones. So you, you said on here, Alexandria, that you moved out, which probably was the right thing to do. Now, I'm not even telling you that you have to give up completely on this person because what you're asking me is how do I know if she's truly committed to change? If. If it gets to the point where you have to like, ask the person to move out or you move out, as in like you're not living with them anymore. A lot of times people want to know, like, how will I know if it's okay to like, move back in with them or let them move back? And it, what I would say to you, Alexandria, is it has to be more than just something that the person says about how they're going to change. It's not because I think they don't mean it, but you. What you're going to want to see is a good decent amount of time where the person is consistently has made that change. So not when they're talking about what they're going to do, not when they're promising what they're going to do, but when they have shown you what they're going to do. Because if it's gotten bad to the point where you can't live with the person anymore more, then that tells me you've given a lot of chances and you're not giving up. But they need to show some time of doing well. And. And I would say probably a few months at least of time of doing well. Because a lot of times people will make the promises, I'll do this. I'll go to 90 meetings in nine days. I'll never do that again. And then the family, like, lets them back in before they've even done any of the change. They've just said they're going to do the change. So that's the line that I would hold. Alexandria, we had a couple of questions in our family Facebook group this week, so I thought I would answer those for you here, too, because they're kind of related. One of the questions in our family Facebook group was about, is it okay to leave your kid with their other parent if their other parent has an addiction? And what I would say is, if that other parent is actively using drugs and alcohol and they're intoxicated, then I don't. Even if you feel like, well, that's their parent, they should have to do it. If you know that they're not capable of doing it, then I would not do it. Because, you guys know I talk on here all the time like, I'm all about giving chances. I'm all about being positive and being a cheerleader. But the safety lines, that is where those are the lines you don't cross. So if you, if, if ask yourself this question. If you hired a babysitter and they came over and they were in the state that your spouse is in, would you leave the babysitter there? If the answer is no, then then I wouldn't, even if it is their parent. And I know that may be hard and convenient and it may make things much more difficult, but it's one of those things that this is really important. So that's the answer to that question, and another one was from our family group was, how do you help someone who's addicted, who's engaging in criminal behavior? And I'm not going to be able to answer this question. Super good. Because I don't know what the criminal behavior was, because my first thought when I got this question is pretty much anybody I've ever treated that has an active addiction is engaging in some level of criminal behavior. Now, obviously, there are levels of criminal behavior, right? None. I'm not, you know, none of it's good. I'm not saying, like, any of it's okay, but the Problem with this question is, is, like, what. What do you mean by that? Like, do you mean my kid is 18 and they're drinking alcohol? Do you mean my husband is selling meth out of the house? Because it's really to very big different things. So as far as how to help them, it's the same. There's nothing different that I would tell you about how to, like, help and support this person that's any different than anything else I tell you guys on these videos. The boundary that you hold to protect yourself might be slightly different.

If.

If their criminal behavior is putting you or like, the other people in the house at risk, then you may have to put a stronger boundary. Like, you may have to be like, I can't live with you, or something like that. But it doesn't mean the way you interact with them has to be a whole lot differently. Hope that helps. All right, let's see here. I'm checking to see if we have any numbers now. We do have a few numbers. Okay, good. All right, I'm gonna do the random number thing on the phone, and you guys help me figure out which one of the numbers is closest. Okay. All right, let's see. Here we go. Shake the phone. We're gonna get a number supposed to just shake it. Oh, here it goes. Okay, the number is two. It's a little bitty number. All right, who is our person that's closest to the number two? I'm going to get our link ready. Let's see here. See, MD was 18. I'm just scanning through. You guys got to tell me who was the closest here. Oh, 13. Custom attitude was 13. I think 13 is our lowest number. Am I right, you guys? All right, number 13, which says custom attitude. I think it is you. I'm going to put a link here in the chat, and all you have to do is hit the link, and then I'll let you join in the live and we'll talk about your situation, see if we can come up with something. Yesterday, I was talking to somebody for a family consult, and. And I said, we're gonna figure this out together. And I didn't know this, but the person told me. He's like, oh. They say in Alan. I'm like, that's not a thing. Figuring out things, that's not something you should do. And I was like, really? That's the thing? Because that's what I do. I'm like, no, we're gonna figure out the situation. Like, wherever you're at, figure out the next move and how to get to the next point. Because, you know, I tell you guys all the time, you're not powerless. There are things you can do to help yourself or to help a loved one if you. Here's my rule about if you're still alive, you're still in the game. So that's, that's where I'm at with it. All right, let's see if we get our person. Join us. We're going to give Custom Attitude a couple more minutes, and then if they're not in here, then we'll go with the number, the next number closest, which I think might have been the 18 number. Maryland. All right. All right, Maryland. I think that you are the next closest number or Custom Attitude says yes. Okay, so you're still here with us. See if you can click the link in the chat and you'll be on with us and we'll get to talk. And if you can't or you change your mind or something, then we'll let MD Go. Kim says my loved one seems to be in the contemplation stage, but regresses back to habits that cross my boundaries. I'm struggling to keep my boundaries. Usage has increased after counseling session. Kim, I am. I wish I knew, like what you mean when you say their behavior is crossing your boundaries. I wish I knew exactly what you meant by that. What I can tell you is that in the contemplative stage, there is a lot of back and forth. That's kind of when they do a lot of that trial and error and they'll. That's when they'll sort of be doing good and then not good and back and forth. So it's not uncommon for that to.

Happen.

And it's not uncommon for people's use to be more after a counseling session or after an AA meeting or anything else like that. I know that sounds crazy, but it's part of the process, unfortunately.

All right.

Okay. Custom Attitude says I can't do it. MD if you want to click that link, I will put it up here again. Since you were the second closest, then we'll put you on here with us. All right. In the meantime, while we're waiting, I'll see if I can take another question. Cecilia says my husband sometimes gets angry or offended when I arrange for child care for our son as a precaution due to his history of drinking incidences with him. How should I respond to his being offended? I could kind of see that. Cecilia and I, I get it, and that's kind of a dicey situation, but is One of those situations where it's like the safety thing has to be first. So I would say, like, I get it, but I have to look out for our kid. And if. If your husband really wants to be able to do that, then I would probably put some kind of accountability thing in place, like a sober link or some other kind of breathalyzing device or something. Maybe not forever, but long enough so you can build trust to know that he's going to make the right choice. But that's a good question. All right, we have Mickey. Hey, Mickey.

Hi.

I've seen your initials for so long, I didn't even know you were Mickey. I've seen MD for, like, a year at least.

Yeah, I've. I've been following you for at least that long. And obviously, since I'm coming on now, it's gotten to the point that. Your session today is exactly what I'm thinking is. Enough. Enough. My. My brother just died last week from alcohol. He literally drank himself to death at 48 years old. And my husband was with me in the hospital, watched him die. He also has an alcohol use disorder. He hates the word alcoholic, and we've been going around and around and around for years. This. And I'm not just blowing smoke, but finding your videos was a huge, huge help. I tried Alan on. It wasn't for me. It was more about trying to get me to leave him. And I didn't want to leave him. I wanted to help him. And so I don't even know how I stumbled across your video, but it was the. The best thing. But now after seeing. After seeing my brother die, I'm. I'm kind of thinking, I don't know if I can do this with my husband. I can't watch him continue to kill himself slowly.

Tell me, can I ask you some questions? Is that okay? Sure. And if I ask you anything that you don't want to talk about on Live, then you can just say pass or whatever. Okay.

At this point, I think that's okay. We're past that point. Okay.

Um, you said that your husband doesn't like the word alcoholic, which is fine.

Right?

But it makes me think. Well, I guess the question is, is, does he feel like he has an alcohol problem? Even if he doesn't like the word, does he feel like it's a problem?

It depends on it. Depends on the day, really. He actually signed up for your program. He had a really bad binge, and we actually signed up for your program. His idea. I had sent him a couple of videos from you saying, yes, you can do it by yourself. He's a pretty. He's a professional like you talk about all the time. And so I think they get in their head that they're, you know, they're different, that their situation is different. You. All of this stuff that you've already heard. And he started your program, he did it for about a week, and then he stopped and started drinking again. And then, you know, I even said, you know, I don't. I don't know what else to do. I don't know how much more I have left. I want to support you. I do support you. I know you can do it because you've stopped for months at a time. And everything that you've said, I've. I've tried all of it. He is not violent. He is not aggressive. He's not, you know, dangerous. He's.

He.

So he's. He's one of those highly functional alcoholics. And. And I don't use that name with him because he doesn't like it. And it doesn't matter to me what the name is. You have a problem with drinking. That's all that matters.

Right?

But at this, you know, And. And the roller coaster, it did get better. But the. The thing with my brother, and I really thought, wow, he's gonna see him in that hospital bed, hooked up to all of this stuff. He was in the room when he died. And the very next day, you know, when we got home, you know, he started drinking again. And after saying all these things, you know, he said he has all the change talk. He has all the change talk. And he will say, you know, I don't want to do that to you. I don't want to put my family through that. Seeing just what you went through with him, you know, he has all the talk, and I think we've probably. It's been a couple of years, at least. At least one year with your, you know, the techniques that I've been learning from you, maybe even a little more than that. But even before that, me going through all the craziness, you know, with stalking him and. And trying to control everything that he does and, you know, all of the other stuff that goes along with it. I've already done all of that. So I'm. Your thing today. Your subject today was kind of really hitting home for me, because just last night, I lost it again. I think, because I'm so emotional, I couldn't keep myself together. And he was so bad when he got home last night that I acted crazy again. I went right back on that roller coaster, and I just had a flash for a moment that said, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep watching you kill yourself. So now I'm wondering, do I have any left in me to keep doing it?

Sometimes when people ask me, like, should I kick them out? Kind of question, what I say to that is, when you're done, you'll be so done, you won't need to ask me, right? You'll know. You won't need to call me. You won't care if I told you not to, because you're done. So. Right? So you're probably not done yet, but you might be getting close, like, you're getting out, and I don't blame you. And. And the story that you're telling me does sound exactly like the stories. Like, what happens usually with the clients that we see. There's a lot of this, and. And I'm hanging in there. And it's usually like, right when I think, okay, this spouse is done, Like, I think, because usually that's, you know, it's like the spouse or the parent, like, they're done. That's usually right when they turn around. The good. The good thing that I hear is he is having change talk. And not only is he having changed talk, but he's trying some things, right? Like, he had the program. He's had times, periods over, and he is saying to you, I don't want to be like that. So not only does he recognize the alcohol is a problem, but he. But he's recognizing how it's affecting you, and he cares about that, which tells me you haven't worked in my program. Because when the family member acts crazy, they don't care if they're hurting you. They're trying to hurt you because they're just mad at you. So I know you work in the program, right, Mickey? So if you're gonna let him see any kind of emotion, based on what you're telling me, I would let him see your sadness and not your anger. Because I think based on what you're telling me, in his heart, he does want to change, and he doesn't want to treat you that way when you show the anger. Not that the anger's not warranted. Invalid.

It is.

And I'd feel angry, too, and I'd probably say angry things. It's just. He's just going to be defensive. But if you show your sadness, I think he's probably pretty close to being done with this thing. And. And it. I'm not saying that would be like the end all, be all, but I think that would get through to his heart faster. Yeah. So just let him just. You don't have to tell him. Just let him see how sad you are. Because he's probably pretty close to figuring it out. And even if he doesn't, like, want to go to treatment or something, because I, you know, I say a lot of the adult, especially adult alcoholics we see don't end up having to go to treatment, but maybe he'll, he'll talk to someone or maybe he'll do like, something that's maybe more interactive, if that would help. Because he's pretty close and I feel like if he was talking to someone about it, it would speed it up.

He, he has actually, he's gone to a couple of people. He actually talked to our family doctor at one point about Suboxone. Suboxone, one of the two there. I know there's two medications. And one of the doctors actually said, I don't think your drinking is bad enough that you need that. And. Which kind of made me a little crazy because I was like, why would somebody come to you and, and say something like that if they didn't really need something like that? And, you know, it was, it was horrible to, to hear.

Oh, that'll set you back six months right there. Or if not longer, because. Yeah, because he felt like, put the stamp on me.

Yep. The doctor said, oh. Huh.

I would just be upset about that. Yeah.

And.

Well, a couple of thoughts, I think maybe. Well, Suboxone is for opiate use disorder.

So it must be the other one.

Then Patrol or something. Doesn't even matter. Right. I have this saying. My saying is, and just for everybody listening, if someone tells you that they are an alcoholic, they're an addict, never tell them that they're not. Because let me promise you, they have thought about that long and hard. Even if you've never seen them do anything, if they are telling you that it's true. Because usually the person is the last one to know it, and they usually know it long before they say it to someone. So if someone says something to you like that, please don't tell them they're not. Because I have clients that do that all the time. Like, I'm working them through these stages and then they finally, like, admit to their friend that they've stopped drinking because they're whatever. And then the friend says, what? I drink twice as much as you. Like, you don't have a problem. Like, and then, and then it's like, backwards. I hate that.

It's just like, yep, that's exactly what happened. And then, you know, he's. He's tried counseling a couple of times, and, you know, one of it, it's. He hasn't connected with the right person, I think, because I know that counseling is a personal thing. You have to be able to connect to somebody. And I also think because of his profession, that he. He would only do it, like, online and. And, you know, I try to look for positives and everything. And a positive that came out of COVID is there's so much more available through virtual, through zoom, all of that. Stu. It's out there, but it's really hard to find. And, you know, right now I just think he's spiraling, and he just. He's right back to asking, who am I hurting? How am I hurting you? I don't understand how I'm hurting you. And, you know, of course, I said, do I just stand in front of you and cry and act like a crazy person all the time? Do you really not see how you're hurting me? And I, you know, it. It just, you know, I was really. This morning, I'm upset that I came out of my own character again, that I. That I reacted that way. And, you know, I almost feel like. And I'm trying not to, but I almost feel like, oh, great, now I just added to. And set him back. And we can, you know, now we're going to start this all over again and, you know, just wondering if. If I. If I, you know, when. When do you say I? I guess you're right. You know, I had a friend tell me the same thing. When your belly's full, you'll walk away. And he's a good man when he's so completely different. And you've said this, too, how everybody says, you know, they're such a good person. And he really is. He has the biggest heart, the kindest man. He doesn't have a negative thing to say about anybody. And I think part of that is part of his problem, too, is he never lets his emotions out. So he has these other issues that he started using alcohol to treat his anxiety, to. To treat, you know, his uncomfortable feelings. And I. At this point, I just, you know, I don't even know what's left. I mean, I felt like. I felt like when he finally agreed. Well, he didn't even agree. It wasn't even my idea. It was just where I said, okay, you know, last night was really bad. And, you know, I've I've found him in the car on the side of the road sometimes and had to drive, you know, his daughter and I pick him up and I drive him home. And, you know, it was like, you. You really took a chance last night. That was horrible. And he would be the kind of person that his heart is so big it would kill him if he hurt somebody while he was driving, you know, so it's.

He.

He is a wonderful man, or I wouldn't still be here, you know, trying to fight for him. And I just. I just don't know where else to go. I mean, he volunteered to do your program and then ended it. And then he asked me to order him a book while we were in the hospital watching my brother sober in today's world or something like that, you know, so he does have the change talk. But it's like he gets on these binges where all of a sudden, everything that he had been talking, everything he had been saying, he just. It's just gone.

Right? Yeah, that's. That. I've seen that so many times. And it's like. It's like, how can one day you get it and one day you don't get it? Like, when people just, like, don't get it when they first see me, like, that doesn't bother me because I sort of don't expect them to. But when they got it and then they lose it, I'm just like, what? And I'm glad you said what you said about him saying, like, how's this even hurting you? Because when you were telling. When you were saying earlier, like, he's kind of like this functional person and this and that. That's my thoughts. Like, he's telling himself. Like, I don't even know why she's upset. Like, I'm making money. I'm taking care of the house. I, like, do my responsibilities. Like, she should be glad. She's got a good. You know, that's what he's selling himself in his head.

Right?

That's right.

And.

And that makes it last longer. The fact that he's functioning in. In all the other areas of his life, it makes it harder to see the problem. And then also, alcohol, and you've probably heard me say this, Mickey is like, alcohol has a worser kind of denial because they literally don't remember. Whereas, like, people that are addicted to other things, they're in denial. They may not want to call it addiction, and they may not want to admit it to you, but they remember that they stole this or that they did that and the alcoholic person, they just don't remember how they acted. They literally.

So that makes so much more sense. He gets up the next morning and acts like nothing happened. Yeah, like. Like. Like he wasn't. You know, he couldn't walk across the room last night. He. It's. He. And I was like, I. I thought he was pretending. Like you're just pretending that. That nothing happened and it did, and I'm hurting, and you just go on like nothing happened because it doesn't.

They don't remember. And what bits and pieces they do remember is just sort of clouded by the fact that they felt good. So if they. Or, you know, they felt intoxicated, I guess, really, and they. With that. And that's specific, like I said to alcohol, the denial tends to be just different, I think a little different than some of the other kinds, because they don't remember and they don't. It's like they're not seeing what you're seeing. And so most of the ones that I see, they tell me that they really feel like their spouse is overreacting. Like, I don't know why she makes a big deal about it. That's what they tell me, like, over and over and over again. Because they don't. They don't see it.

Yep. Yep. That's. That's pretty much what I get, too. And also because, you know, our. Our kids don't want to talk to them about it. They're. They're older. Two of them still live here, but they're older, and they don't want to talk to him about it. And so I will pass that along. And it. So I just take the brunt of it, you know, it almost is like he tells himself, I'm just making it up, you know, like, this isn't coming from them. They're not hurt by anything. They'd come and say something to me, and, you know, it isn't the case. He's. He. It's. This. The shame thing is there too, I think, because he'll be very upset that he doesn't have the relationship that he wants with them. And then he acts like he doesn't understand why. And so I gently try and say, well, you know, every time you drink, it just pushes them away or it damages the progress that you did make with them. And you just have to keep trying. Just have to keep trying. And I. I think, like you've said before, that shame that he feels, he. I think he just. He stuffs it down. Like that's what he's done with his feelings for forever. He doesn't let him out because that's the age, you know, that's the era. You're a man. You don't show how you feel. And he kind of got stuck in that for a long, long time. And he. The only time that he does let any emotion out is when he's been drinking or if I talk to him about it. And, you know, one time I pushed. I pushed and pushed. Pushed. When I was on my crazy roller coaster before I found your videos. And, you know, he was actually yelling and. And that was a first for him. He doesn't yell. He's not violent. This. It's not his character at all. And I don't know. I. I don't know.

Yeah. How old are your kids?

The youngest is 18.

Okay. So they're. They're like young adults.

Yes.

Okay. Because that was another question we had recently is about, like, somebody asked, should I have the kids tell them if they're young? And I usually say to that, like, if they're young kids, if the kid wants to tell them, let them tell them. Like, don't interfere with that. But sometimes parents will be like, you should tell your dad this or that. And that's puts them in a bad place. But also, like, what you're saying, Mickey, is like, if you're the deliverer of the news, they don't believe you a lot of times or. Or they say, well, you're just pitting them against me.

Yep. Heard that.

They don't really feel that way. You're just telling them these stories and you're. You're just telling them I'm bad and it's your fault.

Yep. I. I kind of let. I kind of let them decide how they want to approach it. And pretty much everybody is just giving up on him except for me at this point. And it's really sad because it's. It's the alcohol. It's not him. It's not who he is, and he can beat it. I just don't know how to get that through to him.

Well, I think what you said earlier was pretty powerful to me when you said it's not his character, because it, number one, it just speaks to me about how you feel about him as a person, that you really respect him and that you really do love him. And I would communicate that to him and help him see that the alcohol makes him not live up to his own integrity because he sounds like somebody who those kind of things are important to. And if he doesn't Want to call it alcoholism. Who cares if he doesn't want to say this, but if he could just even. Even see that it makes him be the opposite of who he really is, that may be enough. But he's pretty. He's kind of all over it. He's sort of like, you know, he's all. He's all right out there at the thing, I can tell.

Is there, Is there any advice at this point? Do I just keep doing the same thing or, you know, like, I. Recently you've been talking about the sober link. And, you know, when I, When I said to him, I can't keep watching you kill yourself, you know, he, he woke up feeling very guilty the next morning. This morning. And, you know, he left his driver's license on the counter. So there's, you know, he may be something that he's open to. Is it, Is it. If he doesn't choose this himself, if I say to him, would you consider doing this, is that me interfering? Because.

Okay, now if you say when, the next time he has a moment, if he's in one of those moments today, then today that he, that you can tell he's kind of has that moment of clarity, then I would say, would you be willing to do this and explain to him what it is and say, you know, for like, three months, you know, and then we can reevaluate. If he says yes, then yes. To me, the question isn't do you want to? The question is, are you willing to. No one wants to do any of it.

Right. Right.

If they don't say, hell no, then I'll take that as a yes.

Okay. I mean, because he, he had, we, you know, put things in place. I had let him come up with the ideas so that he doesn't make me the bad guy. And, you know, he made sure that he doesn't carry money on him. He started traveling a different way to work a lot of things. You know, he, he has, he has been trying, and it, it just is, like I said, the losing my brother to the exact same thing just kind of, you know, pushed it. It brings a little. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that, you know, he saw it and, and the next day, you know, changed his mind, I guess, and was like, that's not going to be me. He had to be doing so much worse than I was. And, you know, he talked himself right out of it, and it just, it just. I kind of went, you're not gonna stop. You're never gonna stop. And I, I, I backslid, you know, I Right.

Because the. Seeing your brother scared you. Of course it did. Would me too, if he. If you. If you have the conversation with him about the sober link and he doesn't want to do it, then I would say, okay, I understand that. Would you be willing if. If we have another really bad incident, would you be willing to do it then? Because a lot of times they'll say, yeah, okay, like, if I. If this doesn't work, then I'll do it. So I would probably ask it. If he doesn't do it, then I would set that as a contingency. That way you kind of have it. Get a plan already, like, in place.

And. And I was thinking I'm gonna say the exact same thing you did. This isn't to catch you. It's to help you put things in place to stop you when you have a weak moment. And, you know, that's what we keep trying. And he's very clever. You know, he's very clever because he's left all of his cards. He has no cash with him, but he still had his driver's license, so he could go into the bank and get money out that way, you know, so he's. When they, you know, at one point I was like, you might as well just take all of this stuff with you because you're going to do it anyway. And when he chose to leave all of it, right. You know, I was like, okay, that's a good sign. I'm gonna take it. I will take it. You know, it was his idea. I didn't push it. You can't make me the bad guy. And so, I mean, it has been working. Your. The techniques that you've given it, it has been working. And, you know, one of the things that hit home, too, was when you said, it's not fair, but we end up taking the majority of it on us. But if we want our loved ones, it's just popped back in my head. That's why I'm repeating your own words, but that it's going to come. If we want our loved ones to recover, then we're going to have to do some of the work too. And I'm okay with that because he's worth it. He is a good man. And there are lots of people, like, I don't judge anyone for having any weaknesses. And, you know, and they come in all different types. You know, food, everything can be an addiction anymore. And, you know, I don't. But I think he feels very judged by it. And that's the one behavior that I Can't I. I repeat sometimes exactly what you say to make sure. I'm trying to not, but to make sure that I'm not making things worse. And, you know, it's still. Sometimes I think he just gets defensive and he feels like I'm judging him, you know, oh, you're the one that likes to use that label. And I'm like, I don't. I don't need a label for you. I, you know, I. That was. That was something that, you know, he. He's a bring things up from the past kind of thing. And I said that probably two years ago. You know, I think you're an alcoholic. I think we need to face that there's some problems and, you know, we need things to change. And he hasn't let that go. Like, it hurt him so badly feeling like I judged him using that word. And I haven't used it since he. Since he responded that way. But it's still. He'll still throw that out. And, you know, it's funny because the things. I know that you are legit if anybody else is watching for the first time, because you. It's like you're. You bring things right out of my own life. And you describe them in these videos that I watch when you're on. That's why every Thursday, I have a notification come up to let me know that you're, you know, that you're on. And, you know, it has helped. And if nothing else, sometimes just to calm, you know, just to say, I'm not alone. There's everybody else out there.

Well, I have two things to say about him saying that you said he was alcoholic. First thing I'd say is, if that's all he's got, you're doing pretty good. And be like, I'm winning this. I say that that means you've really been doing good about, like, like keeping your composure. Second thing I would say, and this comes up a lot, in fact, a spouse said this to me yesterday is like, she said. She said or did something like two years ago, and her spouse was saying it. But alcohol makes you relive all your hurts and resentments, and you play it over and over and over again in your head, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So they don't let anything go. So some captain 20 years ago, and they'll be telling it to me like it was yesterday. Now, once I quit drinking, that gets better pretty quick. But they just. Just you. You drink and then you relive it, these bad memories, these hurts. And that's why I say people that are drinking to make their anxiety better or trauma better. Oh, my gosh. Like, there's nothing worse you could be doing. You literally like playing it. And as you're playing it, it's growing, you know, because every. It's like you tell yourself the story so many times, and it gets worse every time you tell yourself the story.

That's. Yeah, that makes sense too, because he. He gets very withdrawn. He doesn't, you know, he'll. Sometimes he's. His version of angry, which is not a normal person's version. Not my. Not my version of angry, but, you know, where he'll. He'll snap about something and he just doesn't. You know, everybody's human. We all normally will, you know, snap at somebody or had a bad day or you. You know, everybody just doesn't. But if he's drinking, that's how it'll come out in him. He'll. He'll sometimes snap about something that he would normally never do.

That sounds really similar to the client I was telling you about, this Jeff client at the beginning. He's very similar to that. And with that person, it wasn't so much, I mean, that he didn't even want to say it, but he couldn't even recognize his own feelings. I'd literally say, man, if that hadn't me, I'd be thinking this. And he'd say, I don't know. I'm like, are you sure? Like, I. I had to, like, teach him how to recognize his own feelings and wants me so he could address them so he wouldn't let them build up.

I think that's this.

I think you need to say this when you get home today. You need. And it just took a lot of, like, coaching him to do that because it. He didn't want to say it, but he also had stuffed it so long he didn't recognize it.

And that's exactly.

Yeah, he was feeling or something. He needed or something.

I. I think that's exactly what it is with him. I mean, you know, some of the things he's told me from when he was growing up, it. You know, it wasn't horrible things, but it was. It was things that I think impacted him to. He never wants to hurt anyone's feelings or even make them feel slightly uncomfortable. And so much so that he takes what he thinks somebody else will feel and feel it himself, you know, And I'm like, that wouldn't have, you know, like, I mean, crazy little things like how he prefers his coffee, you Know, he, he won't even say, oh, yeah, I'll, I'll take cream and sugar. Just like cream, right. However you bring it to me is fine.

Right? Yeah. So that's definitely because part is probably playing into two. Why he doesn't like the label. Because in his mind, it's like, you know, I try so hard. I'm like, I do the right thing. Like, I put, I always put my needs on the back burner. He's probably thinking like, this is the one thing I do for me. Like, this is the only thing I, that if I were in his head, I just imagine, I'm just.

That is one of the things he.

Said that he's thinking in there.

Yep. What? That's one of the exact things that he said. This is the only thing. This is it.

This is all like, like I don't ask anything else. So.

Yeah.

Right. And so that's part of his sort of depriving himself. And then he's using that to justify and, and that those are all things that would probably need to be like, addressed in some kind of counseling or something just to teach him how to not feel bad about asking for what he needs, you know, and, and him recognize how that leads into this. And it doesn't even have to be huge, giant stuff from childhood. It's just like regular stuff in work, in marriage that, you know, you need or want or upset about. And if you just don't get your needs met, then it just is going to come out some way or another.

Yep, exactly. That's, and that's exactly what I, you know, I, on, On the way home from the hospital, you know, when he was talking about that, we talked about it and of course, this was before I saw your 10 minutes. Don't talk for more than 10 minutes. So we, we talked for, and I was kind of letting him do more of the talking. But I did say, you know, I, I, I'm hoping that you will express your feelings a little more, because I feel like you don't. And, you know, that's where a lot of that came from, him saying that. You know, I don't think every, everything we said we think needs to be said. And I said, you're right, everything doesn't need to be. But when, but your feelings matter. And, you know, if it's, you know, I just think that maybe at some point you felt like you have to keep it all bottled up and bottled up. And when you can't take it anymore, you get that desire to drink because you can't control it yourself anymore. And so you drink and maybe you numb it down.

He's trying to like, pour the alcohol. There's like, keep it down. Yep. If one of the things that I would probably tell him if he were sitting in my offices, I would say he's right. Most of our thoughts we don't need to say. I call it the inside voice. You don't need to think, say every, you know, grumpy thought that you have. Yep. But when something is going to continue to happen and you know, is really bothering you, like if somebody you met once said something that just offended you and you're never gonna see them again, it's not worth fighting about. Right, Right. Every time you see your mother in law, she says this one thing to you and it makes you crazy. If it's gonna keep happening, then you need to address it. Because it's not just a. Like, I was just grumpy that day or they rubbed me wrong. I mean, it's like gonna keep coming at you until something gives.

Yeah.

That's how I sort of decide, like, what, what's worth addressing and, you know, what's worth just letting go and kind of. That's my formula for figuring it out.

Yeah, that's. That's kind of like what I told him too. I said, you know, I'm going to use a really minuscule example. If I kept leaving the cap off of the toothpaste over and over and over. It's not, it's a small thing. It's just a tiny little thing. It's no big deal. Right. Who cares? But if it keeps bothering you over and over and over, you know, give me a chance. Just say, hey, would you mind putting the cap back on the toothpaste? And I may go, I totally. I never thought about that. You know, but in his mind, he was like, I can just do it myself. And I'm like, yeah, but what? And this is just an example of you're. You're put. You're saying that your feelings aren't valid. You're. You're telling yourself, just deal with it and don't give me, Give anyone else a chance to make something different or even realize that they've done something that bothers you. So, I mean, and at one point he was just obsessed with getting to the reason of why he was drinking and why he was drinking and why he was drinking. There has to be a reason. And once I figured it out, then I can.

I'm like, I think you might be all over it. Like, he Doesn't. He doesn't get his needs met very well.

Right.

He's pouring alcohol because he's trying to be the good guy.

Yep.

He's trying to do the right things all the time, and he's shoving it all down. That's would be my guess. Like, I. Obviously, I've never met him, but that's got to be at least a piece.

Of it, because I. I think it's a pretty good assessment for never having met him, but. Yeah, that's. But that was one of the things that, you know, we've. We've. There's been a lot of talk in. And it changed a lot after I started listening to your videos and not listening to some other advice that I had gotten and, you know, definitely changed things. The tone of how you approach, you know, the way that I approached him, it. It matters. It just does. And shaming doesn't work, and guilting doesn't work, and yelling doesn't work. And, you know, it was. It was just one of those things that, you know, you. You made so many good points that I have seen progress. I have seen a. A lot of progress.

Right. And I can tell it just hearing from you, because y' all have pretty decent dialogue about it. And he is saying a lot of change talk, and he doesn't want to hurt you, so I can tell that the things are in place. And he's. He's pretty close. I think he's going to turn the corner. And if he could stop drinking, maybe the Silver Link, and if he could learn how to, like, get his knees mat, I think that would be a really good combination. And it may be that you have to, like, train him to ask for what he needs. Like, with the client I had, I would literally have to say, like, are you sure you're not feeling this? Because I would feel this way. You know, I don't. I'd have to like. Or give them multiple choice. You know, it's a good idea. Like this or this or this or, like. And it's almost like if they can start to say it and then nothing bad happens, and then they kind of get used to it and it's just a, Like a skill. Right? Yeah.

Is there, you know, the. The program that we did. I think we did somewhere in the middle. It didn't have any. Or at least I think it didn't have any sessions. Like an actual. With a. With someone like you. Do you. Is there an option for that? Like, because he's also, you know, he uses the same thing that I've heard you talk about the excuses that professionals use, like they don't want their work to find out. And it's a legitimate.

It is.

It's a legitimate reason. But at some point, I've even said, I don't care about your job anymore. You know, your life is more important to me.

But most of them, people get sober and they're doing well, then they get more okay with talking about it because they're already doing better. But while you're still in it, not only do you not want your work to know you have this problem, but you're still in it, so you still feel terrible. You know what I'm saying? So. Right. Usually people, once they get better, they do. They eventually. I call it coming out of the recovery closet. They come out of the recovery closet. You know, they get kind of open with it. So. Yeah. Thank you so much for being brave and joining us. It takes a lot of guts to get on here and just to get on here and talk about anything, let alone, like, these really hard things.

Well, guts or desperation, either one.

The desperation, yeah. All right, thank you, everybody who joined us. We will be back here live next, next Thursday, and I'll put the video up for you guys about when to walk away, the big, like, no go zones. All right, Bye, everybody.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Bye.