How To Talk Someone Into Making A Positive Change

We're going to learn how to actually communicate with someone in a way that helps them move forward and get themselves unstuck and out of a bad cycle. Now, the way we're going to learn that today is we're actually going to watch Dr. Ali from the Dr. Ali YouTube channel have a conversation with someone. It's actually a conversation with someone about their social anxiety. And we're going to watch the skills he uses and talks, talk this person into facing some pretty big fears. And as we go through that, we're going to stop and analyze what's happening and why. And I want you to pay special attention to the types of skills that he uses. You may even want to get a pencil and paper out for this one and take a few notes. Now, before we even start it, I know that you might be thinking, but, Amber, you know, most of us watch you because of, like, substance abuse problems. And this is social anxiety. And I hear you. The part of the issue there is it's hard to get people who are actively battling a substance abuse problem to want to talk about it publicly and have a live recorded session. So it's a little hard to get that to happen. But secondly, these skills that you're about to see Dr. Ali use are the exact same skills that I would use with someone with a substance abuse problem. There really is hardly any difference at all as far as the skills or the things that you say on your part. But just to make sure you feel like you're really getting your needs met, I will periodically stop and tell you maybe how I would word things different or some examples to use if you're dealing with someone who's trying to change a substance use problem. However, these techniques work to help anyone make any kind of positive change. These are actually a lot of the skills that you learn in counselor school, which, to be honest with you, are not that hard. And after you watch this video, you're gonna be like, I'm never paying for counseling again. I can do this myself. Because it's true. You can totally do this. Your these skills I'm going to teach you are very easy. Where you don't want to go is you don't want to go into someone's deep trauma. Now, that is probably going to get you in over your head and that could cause some damage. So you're not going to try to fix anyone's big trauma. But if someone has got an issue in their life trying to help them overcome, you can use these skills, like maybe they want to quit drinking or they're in a bad relationship or they want to go on a diet or they want to get their finances in order. All those things, regular life stuff. You got it. All right, so let's see what Dr. Ali has to say and how he helps this young man make some decisions to take some big, courageous steps. Here we go.

Paul, this is Dr. Ali Mattu. Welcome to the psych show.

Great to be here.

I'm happy to have you. So how can I help what's going on?

Among other things, I'm having trouble with social anxiety at college. And being at college, I don't really have an opportunity to, like, deal with it. I'm going to therapy on campus that's provided for us, but it's not very. Not very helpful for what I need it to be. It's a lot more like conversational, and I would need more CBT based, and I don't have access to that.

What helped you to notice that this is. This is might actually be a problem for me?

I had a rough night. Just a bunch of random, inconvenient things happened, and I just kind of had an anxiety attack. And I ended up sitting in a lawn chair of my school green at like 10 o' clock at night for a half an hour because I didn't want to see people who I had already seen earlier that night.

All right, so let's stop there and see what's happening so far. The first thing that's very important here that I want you to pay attention to notice is, is right out the gate, what we had was this person, this young man, brought the problem up to Dr. Ali. And it's always best if the other person brings it up in some form or fashion, because if you lead out of the gate with it, you're automatically going to get more defensiveness than you would otherwise. I know you might be thinking, amber, my loved one doesn't want to talk to me about their problem at all. If that's the case, it's probably because you've had a bunch of not great conversations about it in the past, or they're afraid you're going to judge them or make them do something that they don't want to do. So you may have to do a little relationship repair to get to this point. But even people who have substance abuse problems will pretty regularly say some kind of change talk type statement like I really need to cut back or I really need to stop drinking liquor. Or they will say some kind of indicator of a problem or a piece of that problem that they want to change. They may not come right out the gate and say, hey, I want to get completely sober forever, but that's okay. You start where they are and you let them bring up the issue. But also, you want them to feel like you really understand their situation, specifically, because probably what's happened to this person in the past is people jump to conclusions and they give advice to this person before they really understand all the dynamics of it. The second question Dr. Ali asked was an even better question. And that question was, what? Basically, I don't know how to phrase it like he did, but basically, it's like, what happened that made you decide to want to change this problem or make you think that this was a problem? If someone comes into my office and they say, hey, I think I'm drinking too much, my next question will almost always be, what makes you think that? I may already know the answer to that? And it's not even so much that I don't believe them and they need to convince me. But what happens here is when someone tells you the answer to that question, they're actually motivating themselves to change. You know, if they're in a bad relationship and you say, you know, what's making you feel like this is a toxic situation for you? What makes you feel like you should get out of this? You know, when did you become aware that this wasn't working for you? Any of those questions that get the person to articulate what the problem is, how bad the problem is, or why they want to change it is actually reinforcing in their own mind. This is a problem, and I gotta change it. And here's why. All right, let's see what happens next.

Yeah, people who are pretty close with. It wasn't like they were, like, sworn enemies or anything that I liked both of them, but I'd already seen them, and I didn't want to see them again for no discernible reason. And I was already, like, out and about because my roommates were having a party, and I just couldn't deal with that at all.

Yeah, that sounds very familiar. That. That, to me, sounds like social anxiety. And what social anxiety can do is even if it's someone you know well or a group of people that you interact with a lot, sometimes social anxiety can just make you want to avoid those situations for no logical reason at all. And your example also is a good one about how diverse social anxiety is. For some people, it's about meeting new people. For some people, it's about seeing people they already know. For some people, it's just about authority figures. So I want to get a little bit better understanding here what kind of situations are difficult for you.

All right, so let's take a look at Dr. Ali's responses right there. What he's doing mostly right there is he's validating the person's experience. Experience. He's reflecting it back to him in a way that says yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. And he, he adds a little bit on to sort of re. Emphasize what the person is telling them and say, yeah, you're, you're totally right. This is what social anxiety does. And you know, I'm glad that you tell me that because you're right. Social anxiety is different for different people.

Honestly, a lot of situations, usually if it's just a bunch of strangers, I'm fine. But it's usually people know. But it could be any sort of relationship. It could be friends, colleagues, teachers, even really close friends. Sometimes I just like don't want to see them and like I have a very intense feeling in my chest when I see them and I don't want to see them and I just kind of freak out and try to not be seen, which is difficult because I'm a big guy.

What was the last time that you remember really feeling this? Like, like, is there an example that you're very comfort sharing with me is not necessarily so.

I want you to also be paying attention to not just what Dr. Lee is or Dr. Ali is saying or asking, but also look at his non verbals. Even though this person isn't even in the room with him, he's sending strong non verbals of I'm listening, I'm thinking about what you're saying, I'm paying attention, I'm present, I'm in the moment with you. And I'm not just sitting here thinking about what piece of advice I want to tell you. I'm actually trying to understand your situation. And then he's asking for this example. Asking for examples is always helpful because a lot of times someone will tell you something and you think you get it, but when they give you an example, you get it on a deeper level. And I always find the can I have an example? Question super helpful. In fact, a lot of times when I ask it, I'll say, can you give me a few examples? And the reason I do that is because I'm looking for pattern inside the examples.

Really a recent example, but more of a recurring example. Sure, that works. I have a single in my suite, so I like live in A room by myself. But my roommates spend most of their time in the living room, whereas I spend most of my time in my room. But my roommates are very loud and when they get very loud and I can hear them, I feel uncomfortable. And I feel uncomfortable leaving because if I have to walk out of my room, I have to see them. So if I have to go somewhere, I'll just often put it off or even just skip it. There have been nights where I've just not had dinner or I've had like a granola bar or cereal in my room instead of going to get food because I just don't want to deal with walking out of my own room.

I'm really sorry Paul, because that, that, that must be so difficult because that could happen every night.

Yeah, I try to not be in my room early enough. So like I try to be out and about, so I have to go get dinner from there. So. Yeah, but that's also can be inconvenient because then I have to be out of my room.

Right. And this is how social anxiety can, it can so limit us. And in some ways it can, it can make you feel imprisoned in so many ways. What are you.

So I just want to stop right there and, and help you or draw your attention to the fact that what's happening here is, is he's, he's mixing an empathy statement also with a reflection statement. Now he's not reflecting his words back exactly, but he's reflecting back the point or the sentiment. And I love that he used the word imprisoned because if you're really paying attention to what this guy is saying and how listening to it, you can sort of, you can, you can have an idea about what he might be feeling. And I think this word imprisoned is like the perfect dead on word to use. When you can do this. It shows that you understand them, which is like a next level of active listening kind of statement. And it really helps people feel heard and understood, which is going to help.

Them tell you more afraid might happen. When you do hear your roommates and you want to go out of the room, what do you get concerned might happen if you do that?

I don't even know. It's just kind of, just kind of like my body shuts off, my brain shuts off and like you can't deal with that right now. Reasonably speaking, the worst that's going to happen is that maybe they're a little intoxicated and they say something dumb. Not hurtful, not mean, just dumb. And then I just kind of look at them and leave. Like, there's no situation where I'm actually gonna get hurt during this. And I know that, and I can say that confidently. But when this comes up, I. I can't. Like, I can't get that thought out. It doesn't make sense in the moment.

And when you say you can't get that thought out, which thought are you referring to?

Okay, so let's stop and take a look there. This process of having this person tell you what his fears are, that's the question Dr. Ali asked, was, you know what? What's your biggest fear about it? Which is going to have the person really identify for you what their roadblocks are, which can be very helpful because you're going to know, why are they not overcoming this hurdle already? And just by asking this young man this question, you see, the young man is even able to tell you, like, know this is irrational. Like, I know this bad thing. I think it's going to happen, isn't going to happen. But it's this feeling about it that I'm dreading. It's not the actual outward scenario that could happen. It's the feeling that I'm worried. For example, it's kind of like what he's saying is kind of like I always say, I will ride some roller coasters, but not other roller coasters, because it's not that I'm afraid I'm going to die. I'm not afraid I'm going to die at all. I just don't like that feeling of topping that first big hill. Just that little feeling right there. I don't like the feeling. I'm scared. Scared of having the feeling. And that's what this guy is saying, which is super helpful. And then Dr. Ali, he's jumping right in here to a clarifying question. What are you afraid might happen?

Get the rational thought of, they're not going to hurt me, like, to overcome the feeling of dread that I have.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense to me. And it makes sense because it doesn't quite reflect your experience. I mean, your experience is these social situations have been dreadful in terms of how you feel. You feel that dread inside of you, and regardless of what actually happens, it feels so aversive. You mentioned before that you've probably experienced social anxiety for a very long time, if not your whole life.

I just want to call attention to when this young man tells Dr. Ali, like, what's the roadblock Dr. Ali doesn't go into? You know why that roadblock shouldn't be there or how to overcome that roadblock. All he does is validate why the person feels that way. He validates that person's experience by using reflective statements and empathy statements, which is very effective. Notice there's been no suggestions so far, and there actually won't be any suggestions for a little while longer, which is super important to pay attention to.

And this, I mean, that doesn't surprise me because a lot of people who have social anxiety slip through the cracks. And what I mean by that is a lot of people don't realize we might have social anxiety. For example, you do your schoolwork, you kind of go through the motions. You're not causing a lot of problems. And so the social anxiety isn't really getting picked up. And I mention this because when people have gone through social anxiety for a very long time, it kind of becomes the way in which we see the world. And when you're in a social situation and you're someone who has had social anxiety for a very long time, you're more likely to see threats and to experience these intense physical feelings than other people would. So this is a very long way of me saying it makes complete sense to me that you might have these fears because you've just. You've had this anxiety for so long, and that's what anxiety does. Anxiety increases our perception of threat and the likelihood of danger. That's what it does. It's great when we need it, not so great in everyday social situations. The question becomes what to do? What?

So a lot of what Dr. Ali is doing right here in that part is really just relating to the person. I've heard him talk about in other YouTube videos that he has, that he has personal experience with social anxiety. And it would be really easy for him to launch into a story about something that happened to him or bring his experience into this. But when you do that, you sort of take the attention off of that person and pull the attention back on you. All you're really trying to do is relate and say, and sort of communicate that I get you. However, what Dr. Ali is doing is he's taking his personal experience and he's articulating how relatable those feelings are without making it about him. He's just saying, yeah, because it feels like this, and then you worry about this, and then this thing happens, and then, you know, and so he's using that personal experience to relate and communicate, but not necessarily pulling the attention off of the other person to do about this.

I'll do the stereotypical therapist question Here. If I had a magic wand and if I could kind of wave that wand and change things, what would things look like? How would things be better for you?

I think I just would be able to go about my day, interact with who I want, not interact with who I don't want to, and just be at peace with that.

What would really improve your life right now is if you were able to engage with the people you want to engage with on a daily basis. That's what we're talking about.

Okay? So right there, three really important things happen. So I want to highlight them for you. The first thing Dr. Ali did is he preempted the question he was about to ask. I think probably the clinical term for that is meet the resistance. I call it say it before they think it. So anytime I'm about to say something that I think someone's gonna have a wall up against, I'll just say what I think their thought might be before they do. So what he said is, he said, I'm about to ask you a really stereotypical, like, counselor question. And I use that one a lot in my sessions. Or I might say, I'm gonna ask you a million questions. Feels like interrogation. I'm really sorry. Here's what I'm trying to do. You say it before they say it. All right? Are you. Sometimes I'll say, this is probably going to be the dumbest question you ever heard, but did this happen or that happen? And what happens is when you ask something that you think someone's going to be like, why are you asking that? Or, that seemed cheesy. They actually. They don't have that thought because you've already had it for them, and then that's removed, and they can hear you better. Secondly, the thing that's happening is what he's actually asking here is, what's the end goal? How would your life improve? What would be better? Which is super important to ask, because now he's collecting the three important pieces. Once he gets his answer, he's got, what is the problem? How does it work specifically for him? He's got, what is standing in your way? What is the roadblock for you personally? And then he's about to find out the third huge chunk of information, which is, why do you want this to be better? And what will your life be like when it is better? Having someone articulate that takes their motivation inside and ramps it up. Because not only does Dr. Ali need this information, the real magic is happening because when the person is communicating this to him, his own Motivation is coming forward. He's telling himself why this is such a big problem. He's telling himself, like, how. That there's this roadblock. But he knows it's a silly roadblock and he needs to overcome it. And he's telling himself, my life would be so much better if I stopped. You see how Dr. Ali got him to say all that? Normally, what happens when you have a normal conversation with someone? You just want to speed up the process. We can get impatient. And when I say you, I really mean us. Me too. Because when I'm not in my clinical mind, I do the same things. And we want to say all those things and skip the part about pulling it forward from them. But that is where the magic happens. That is actually helping them. It's not just helping you understand, it's helping them make the decision for change.

Yeah.

Okay, and who are some of the types of people? I mean, you don't have to mention names, but are we talking friends? Professors, Room suite mates? It sounds like.

Yeah, I'd say all of the ones you mentioned. Even people who I wouldn't necessarily consider friends, but more of an acquaintance that I might want to get to know better. People that I know. A lot of the people that I know are good people and I want to be able to talk to them.

Okay. So here's the good news is, the good news is you live in a place where you have a lot of opportunity to practice this. Some people who might watch this video might be in a situation where there isn't a lot of people around them or any easier opportunities to do that. So that's the good news here is in the college campus kind of environment, you've got a lot of opportunities to do that.

So what just happened right there is, after Dr. Ali's listening to all these three pieces, he's extracting positive information and he's reflecting that back to him. Because now that he's got the motivation building, by having him articulate all those things, by saying this to him, he's actually saying, and here are some strengths and some assets and some things that are going to make it easier for you. Ways that I might do this, if it were a substance abuse client is I might say something like, well, the good news here is, like, you know exactly what the problem is. You've actually had some success before you even know what you need to do. And it sounds like you're ready to do it, man, you're like 10 miles down the road further than most of my people when they come in. Here, they don't even know they have a problem. And the person will sort of smile and light up, and it kind of helps to build them up and feel stronger. And so whenever you're listening, always be listening for the strengths the person can pull on, whether it's about themselves or their situation or their insight or their willingness and reflect that to them. And that's going to help them have the strength to make the changes.

You mentioned CBT in the beginning, and the main CBT technique here to help you is exposure therapy. The way exposure works is. Is it's about helping you to be in situations so your mind can learn what it needs to. To be able to move forward. So me telling you everything's gonna be okay, it's not gonna work, because that's not your lived experience. What your lived experience is, is being in these situations and feeling that dread, feeling that awful feeling, or maybe being concerned that something bad is gonna happen. So what we have to help you with is to help you get experiences that are different. And the only way to really do that is through exposure.

So.

Right.

So I want to point out something right there. I can almost. I don't. I don't even know, but I'm almost guarantee I'm going to limb here and guarantee for you that Dr. Ali knew that the solution to this person's problem was going to be exposure therapy from the beginning, because he knows that that's what you do to fix this problem. But look how far we are into this conversation. Before he ever brings that up, I want you to realize exposure therapy is a fancy way for a clinical. A clinical, fancy way to say, you're just gonna have to face your demons. It's literally, like, the hardest thing ever. And he waited to bring that in because he wants the person to feel heard and understood. And he actually does want to understand the specifics about what that person is dealing with. And as he's listened, he's built a level of trust and rapport and understanding with that person. So he's kind of like, I call it plowing the ground to be ready for the seed. And very intelligently, very strategically, he. He didn't just go in, well, you're gonna have to do exposure therapy, because that's what fixes this. He linked it back to something that the person, the young man said at the very beginning, which was he. He said, I need CBT. And Dr. Ali says, you know, the best CBT technique. So it's basically saying, yeah, you're right. This is what we need to do. And then he's throwing in the big cat daddy of like, and this is what we're going to do, this big hard thing. But he's linking it to something the person said, and you can't do that without actually listening to them.

Now, if I were to ask you about those daily relationships and the ones that a place where you want to start making some change or which relationship, which situation, which person would it be?

I'm not really sure.

It's a tough question. So the way I would think about it is, if you could improve a relationship in your life, who would get you the greatest? What relationship would get you the most bang for your buck? Or another way to think about it is, is what's the most pressing social situation to improve? The one that is causing you the most distress or the one that's most important for you for school reasons or for other reasons to improve?

I mean, okay, so right there, Dr. Ali asked a question, and he got the I don't know response. That can happen for a few reasons. A lot of times when clients tell me, I don't know, it might mean they don't really understand the question. It might mean they don't know. That's the least likely. Or a lot of times with substance abuse clients, saying, I don't know really means I don't want to talk about it. But Dr. Ali handled this super smoothly. He just clarified the question. He just asked it in a different way. Kind of like a school teacher. If you ask a kid a question, they don't know the answer, ask it to them in a different way. Another skill you can use if you run into the I don't know is give multiple choice. You can say, for example, like, would it be easier to do this with peers, with teachers, with co workers? You're giving some examples. And sometimes one of those examples will grab onto the person, but even if not, it will spark their own answer. And a lot of times I'll give some examples. I'll say, or, like, none of those. Something totally different. So, like, leave a C or a D other or whatever so they can fill in the gap there.

This is a whole other issue. But, like, there's this one girl that I've been meaning to talk to who I'm interested in.

And do you see Dr. Ali's eyebrows go up? Because he's like, there it is. There's the big motivator.

I have known her for a while, and so she kind of means a lot to me. But again, I mean, that's also just Plain old regular nerves. I think among the social anxiety problems. But I think if there was one person that I could just snap, turn around and be able to talk to and have it improve my life and give me peace of mind, I think it would be her.

What are you afraid might happen if you say the things that you want to say to her?

I'm afraid that I'll look like an idiot.

Okay.

Or that I'll come off as creepy.

Got it, Got it. Okay, so let's pretend I'm a fly on the wall. What would I see? If you're acting like an idiot or coming across as creepy, what would that look like?

Well, specifically saying not being able to get the words out, because there is an actual reason for that. My tongue was tied to the bottom of my mouth for most of my life. I got that surgery when I got my wisdom teeth out when I was 17. So my tongue is still getting used to saying words properly. So sometimes I'll just, like, say two or three words in the. At the same time, and it just comes out as a garbled mess. Yep. So that's. That's a legitimate concern of mine. But also just like saying something that I mean and believe that's just in the wrong context or at the wrong.

Time, anything else that you're afraid might happen or a reaction from her that you might be worried about her doing something or saying something.

Because the way I imagine it is that the problem would be she would deal with it in the situation and then not be okay with it, but still be civil, but then turn around and tell all of her friends and their friends. You know, the gossip mill gets going, and then all of a sudden, I'm a bad guy.

Okay. Okay. So part of this.

So Dr. Ali right there, he asked for a lot of clarification. He's asking for examples because he really wants to thoroughly understand what is it that this guy has in his head that's holding him back. Now watch.

This next statement is actually a fear of how you say something, how it comes across, her reaction to that, and then that reaction sort of getting out into your local community so that.

That you just saw. This is the first time you've seen one of these. This is called a summary statement. I like the way he's actually got it, like, summarized up here on the screen for you because it really visually shows you how he summarized it. So he's. He's taken everything he's listened to so far, and he's. He's saying it in one big summary Statement example I might use in a session might be, so you. You want to cut back on your drinking. You don't really want to stop completely, but you feel like if you cut it back, you might lose some weight and your wife will be less frustrated with you and you wouldn't have those pesky hangovers, you know, during the week. That might be a summary statement. So you're gonna. But you have to listen really closely to what they're saying and pick up all the pieces. This really does help someone hear and feel like, okay, he' the big puzzle pieces. He's really understanding my situation.

Yeah. I feel like my biggest concern here is that I'll just say something the wrong way and that will have an impact. And if I just worded it differently or said it in a different tone, that it could have. That it wouldn't have been as bad and that I've just misrepresented myself through the use of word choice or just doing something silly. And then now that's permanent. That's like on my. That's on my transcript now.

So that's your real fear. It's the core here. The thing that's driving all of this is a fear of saying something the wrong way and a fear of being. Of being seen as stupid or fear of being stupid and probably some of the rejection or isolation that might come along with that. All right, and here's how social anxiety can screw us over is in your mind, the likelihood of that happening is so high that it's keeping you from taking any chances. So you are actually being more alone and isolated because your anxiety is keeping you from taking any of those risks. I got some ideas here of what to do. Getting back to cbt. One idea.

So I want you to watch because look how far into this conversation we are. This is the first point that Dr. Ali is even going to give any suggestion at all. All he has done up until now, listen, reflect, summarize empathy statements, ask for examples. When you are stuck in a conversation, you will never go wrong by using simple, active listening skills. And up until now, that's pretty much all Dr. Ali has done. And honestly is the most important of all the things that's going to happen. He's about to give a suggestion, which I will go ahead and do a spoiler alert is going to get rejected. So let's watch and pay attention to what the suggestion is, why it gets rejected, and how Dr. Ali handles that.

Is a coping skill route. So coping skills are anything that's going to help you to Be in the situation and make contact with the fear that you have. So in this kind of situation, I would actually think about if the goal is for you to express what you want to say to this person. And one fear is I might not physically be able to get those words out. Do you think there's either a different way of communicating it to her, either DMing or texting or actually practicing it out, Being able to kind of rehearse what you want to say, having an outline, like a little cheat sheet on your hand or something like that. Anything like this that might help you to be able to be able to say the things that you want to say?

Theoretically, yes. Practically, I haven't had much luck with that. The thing about you suggesting, like, DMS or texting is that for me, this is where my ADHD comes in, is that I can't, like, sit down and focus enough to write what I want without incessantly rewriting it and reworking it and just, like, basically obsessing over the fine details. And it could take me an hour to write, like, a sentence. And even then I feel like the whole this is where, like, the kind of the me too thing comes in, where, like, the just a little bit the stereotype of sliding into her DMs, right? Like, the idea of, like, pounding on a girl just because she's a girl, that kind of scares me away from doing that. And the idea of rehearsing it, I don't know, it kind of feels foreign to me to like, to rehearse something that's so personal. I feel like, for me, it needs to come at the moment spontaneously. It needs to be what I'm thinking at the moment.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. So that. That's helpful for me.

So that was the sort of reject I was talking about. He's basically saying that won't work for me because. And he gave three reasons that wouldn't work for him because he's too ADHD to focus on it. Number one, because he's worried he'll come across as a creep if he tries to instant messenger. And lastly, he doesn't want to do it that way because he feels like it would be, like, too rehearsed and not genuine or authentic. So let's see how Dr. Lee handles.

That for me to know what you're hoping to do and also what helps and what doesn't help. So this then gets into. The exposure for you is really going to be to the unknown of how you come across in this situation with her. So there's A couple ways to think about this in terms of what to do. You can try exposure to similar kind of situations that feel a little bit lower stakes. So, for example, if there's someone else that you want to express something too, you could try practicing that with the goal of trying to get contact with these fears of. Fears of being stupid or fears that I'll say something the wrong way. Are there other people that you might have the same kind of fear with but could feel like it's lower stakes than this girl that you want to talk to?

Not really, no.

Sometimes it's. It's actually easier for that person to be someone you're. You're close to in this situation. It might. In your situation. I mean, it might be actually easier for you to practice with someone you don't even know. Like, I'm. I'm just thinking about someone who's in customer service or like at a store or something like that. Would that be a little bit easier?

Yeah, that just opened up a ton of different ideas.

Oh, yeah, Hit me.

So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's this kid that plays the piano in the lobby.

Don't you like that? That. So Dr. Ali, when he got the reject, instead of trying to come, go back and reconvince him on that suggestion, he just let that suggestion go. The person had three reasons why that wasn't going to work. Obviously, this person has thought about that or they've tried that. So Dr. Ali comes up with another question, and what he does is sometimes he comes up with maybe a less scary proposition. A smaller ask. How this might work with somebody who has an addiction is you might say, how would you feel about stopping for, you know, 30 days or two weeks? Or how would you feel about not going in this situation, you know, this summer or something like that, Something that's more doable. Offer something else and see how they see how they respond to it. And sometimes they'll grab right onto your idea. And sometimes just giving the idea prompts them to have their own, which is exactly what happened right here in this situation. He's like, oh, yeah, that gives me some ideas. And you could see Dr. Ali's face light up when he said it, because that's what you want. If it comes from them, it's way better even than if it comes from you, because they. They really know themselves best, and they know what they're more likely to do and what's going to work for them. So let's see what this young man comes up with.

My building every day, and he Sounds great. I've been mean to tell him that because I am also a pianist, but I just never get around to it.

Oh, man. Paul, I think we're onto something here. So giving compliments to someone is a big social anxiety exposure I love to recommend, and there's a couple of reasons for this. One, it can be pretty anxiety provoking for a lot of people who have social anxiety to give a compliment because you're kind of putting yourself out there. But number two, another reason why I like that as an exposure is because giving an authentic compliment about what someone is doing or what someone has chosen to wear, not like you don't want to compliment people on. Like, unlike their things that they don't have choice over. Like for example, someone's height or their eye color or things like that. You do want to compliment people on things that they have chosen or things that they've practiced. Like this person who plays the piano. Perfect example. So it will actually help you to be able to better connect with other people. So could this be a first exposure you could do where you could share exactly what's been on your mind in the moment authentically, just like you want to do with that other girl and then share it with this person and then maybe even say something like, you know, I've been wanting to tell you this for so long because I've, I've really enjoyed hearing your music and I play piano too, but I've just kind of been anxious to share that, like some version of that. What do you think about that?

Okay, so what, There's a couple of really good things that happen here. Number the first thing that Dr. Ali did was really sort of get excited about and validate the person's idea. So if someone says something to you about, well, I think this might be work, or I'm willing to try this, then you add onto that and say, oh yeah, that's actually a really good idea. And here's why it's a really good idea. So you're validating that and that's making the person even more excited and more motivated to do it. And then this next thing that happens right here is really smart because Dr. Ali is not going to stop with just the idea. Is actually what he's doing here is he's asking for a commitment. He's asking the guy to say, yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm going to practice with the guy that plays piano. This is especially important when it comes to dealing with someone with a substance use problem, because their windows for I call them little moments of clarity. Their windows are not open very long, and you will hear them all the time say, like, I need to change. I want to cut back, blah, blah. But if they don't put a plan in place, commit to an action step, nothing is going to change. So Right here is Dr. Ali's way of asking for a commitment to do this exercise.

Yeah, I think that could work.

Okay. Okay. So I would start there. And here's what I want you to do to make this a real good learning experience. And this is bringing in memory science with. With clinical psychology and exposure therapy. Before you do that, you can write this down on your phone. Write down, what do you think is going to happen? Don't try to be rational here. Just kind of go with what your gut is telling you. What do you think is going to happen? And then write down 0 to 100%. How much do you believe that that's true? Afraid he's going to ignore me or not hear me, or he's going to think I'm stupid, or he's going to roll his eyes or he's going to say, oh, thank you. That's really nice for you to say. Write down those things and then do the exposure. And part of the exposure is going to be. Part one is to share authentically how you actually feel about his. His piano playing. And then part two is actually to share. I've wanted to tell you this for a long time, but I've really been anxious to tell you. And then really pay attention to what happens with those two things. And then after the exposure, write down what actually happened and if your fears came true or not. And how do you know?

Okay.

Now, that thing that Dr. Ali just asked him to do is actually a very good sort of teaching tool. What he's trying to do is reinforce this new learning. So he's asking him to write down what he thinks is going to happen and then to kind of come back and say, what did happen. Because as a person does that, more and more, it's going to reinforce in this person's head, like it really isn't nearly as bad as I think, because when he's in the moment and he actually practices it, he probably will feel just as anxious as he always feels. Excuse me. So he'll be paying attention to that feeling again instead of what's really happening. So by asking him to write it down, it's going to call his attention to this positive aspect or this different aspect over here, which is going to bring that more into the Forefront and sort of solidify that in the learning process, which is a great, I think, clinical move that might come across a little weird if you are just having a regular, regular people talk. What I want you to do is write this down, write that down. That's going to come across as weird, bossy, or controlling. So I probably wouldn't do that in a regular conversation. It works here because this is like a professional and he's seeking advice from this professional. So you can say, you know, here's what I want you to do. Just kind of weird and irregular. You could instead say if somebody agreed to do something, you could follow back up with that and say, what was it like? Was there anything, you know, really great that happened? Was there anything that surprised you? You can literally just ask them the questions to call their attention to certain aspects of what's happening rather than give them like the homework assignment.

And then I want you to actually repeat this in different kinds of situations. So let's actually use. Use the benefit of people that you don't know, don't produce a lot of anxiety. Let's use that as a starting place to get you more contact and understanding with these fears. I'm just going to share with you some of the things that I've assigned to my patients in the past. So going to a cash register and paying with the wrong amount of money. Nowadays, a lot of people don't pay with cash, but. So this would be something like you're buying a stick of gum. You don't buy one stick of gum. Who buys one? One stick of gum. You're buying a pack of gum. It's like 2 bucks. You pay with $1. And the person says, oh, no, it's $2. And you pay with like a $50. And then they're like, sir, it's $2. And then you say, oh, my gosh, sorry. I'm just, I'm just so anxious. I'm not, I'm not thinking clearly. And then you pay with the right amount, something like that. Or you buy something and then you immediately return it and you say, gosh, I was just, you know, I was anxious. I wasn't really thinking right. This isn't the one I wanted. Something like that is a good way in, in these kind of situations. What another way you could do is you could do more compliments for other people. So you could do a day, or it doesn't have to be a whole day, maybe, maybe like part of the day where you're trying to find someone and authentically compliment Them, like if they're wearing a shirt of your favorite team. But if someone has like a, A Star wars shirt and you love Star wars, say like, oh, yeah. Nice shirt. Oh, cool. Thanks, man. Yeah. Hey, did you. What you think of the last movie? And you know, something like that. But you could, you could practice giving authentic compliments to other people about their clothing, their shirts, their things that they do, anything like that, like, that would be a good way in to get you more contact, more with this fear.

The, the paying with the wrong amount. Sounds like a lot of fun just because I, I do that, like, naturally. Sometimes I'll just, like, I'll just completely mess up. But like that. I, I think, I think that's a lot to work with. I think I can do that.

So this technique, I would call it the thing, I call it, which is just something I made up to call it. I call it the leaving it on the coffee table effect. So it's where you throw out some ideas, but they're not saying, here's your assignment or I want you to do this. You're just saying some things some other people have done and then throw out some different examples. The person will either pick and choose which ones they want. Like, it's like a buffet of things, action steps they can take, and they can pick the ones they want to pick and leave the other ones. Or even if you throw some out there, they may not like any of the ones that you threw out there, but it may remind them of something and they say, oh, yeah, I think I could do this, and they'll add something to it. So it's just a casual, I'm just throwing it out there and leaving it, no pressure kind of situation. And as you can see, this guy picked one of those right up, and he actually got excited about it, like, yeah, I can do that. Okay, so now that you guys have went all the way through that, you really, you, you saw a lot of skills, a lot of different kinds of questioning, empathy statements, reflection statements, summary statements. You know, he got the guy to commit the multiple choice, all that kind of stuff. That's a lot for you to take on learning all at once. It would be a lot for anyone. What I'd like for you to do is pick one of those skills and practice it this week just naturally in easy situations. Like, for example, if you want to practice reflective listening, just say, all right, I'm going to work on getting good at this. If you want to practice clarifying questions, whatever it is, pick one thing at a time and just practice it so that that skill, that way of interacting becomes very natural to you, and you'll be. I think you're going to be really surprised at how people respond to you differently when you start listening to them differently and.