How Your Addicted Loved One ALWAYS Manages To AVOID RESPONSIBILITY 😠(DARVO)

Those of you who have ever lived with or cared about someone who has an addiction are really going to relate to what I'm talking about. You catch them 100% red handed doing something that they know they're not supposed to be doing, and five seconds later they do some sort of like ninja mind trick manipulation. And the next thing you know, you walk away feeling guilty and feeling like you're the person in the wrong. What the heck happens? Now those of you who've been watching me for a while, you guys know I have a lot of videos on here about different manipulation tactics and sort of how they work and what's going on behind them and how to respond to them. But the one that we're going to talk about today is actually sort of a combination. I like to think of it like if you were in a fight, it would be like a combination like left punch, right punch, kicking the groin or something like that. And it happens so fast that it like leaves your head spinning. What we're going to talk about today is actually called. It's got a name. Most of the time I just like give these tactics names that I made up. But this one actually has a name, a clinical one, and it's called Darvo D A R V O. And it stands for deny. I gotta look at my notes here. Oops, I had it in my head and then I started talking about, oh, it's deny, attack and then reverse the victim and the offender. So it's like step one, two, three, four, really fast. And that's what I mean when I say like left punch, right punch, kick. And usually it sort of happens in that sequence and it goes like super quick. It can happen in a matter of seconds. And when it's happening to you, it's very difficult to think. And the next thing you know, you're on the defensive because it's like you just got like a verbal punch and then you start, start like punching back or trying to defend yourself or something like that. And when you do that, it only ever really makes it worse. And you guys know on this channel, we are all about helping you stay five steps ahead of addiction at all times. So I want you to understand exactly what this combo move is, what's happening, why it's happening. I'm going to give you several really good real life examples of it. And then we're going to talk about what to do when you find yourself getting Darvo'd. Okay? All right. Now if you've heard of this term, well, first of all, give me like A hand emoji in the little comment section. If you've heard of Darvo before, that way I'll know. Is this like a brand new concept or something you maybe know a little bit about already? So if you do know about Darvo, you've probably learned about it or heard about it in context of narcissistic personality disorder or maybe even even in the context of like domestic violence and abuse or something like that. It's most closely associated these days with narcissistic personality disorder. And it's true that, yes, this is a tactic that people with narcissism will use very, very regularly, but it is also a tactic that people with substance abuse problems use all the time. There is a difference. And what's happening here though, when. When a substance user or substance abuser is using this tactic, it really is just deflection. And I know it's sort of deflection and narcissistic personality disorder, but. But really it's not so much about trying to control you. It's more just throwing you off the scent. And, and one of the big differences is you're mostly. When you're dealing with an addict and you see this behavior because I know sometimes it can be hard to sort of separate. Is it just addiction? Is it just nar. Is it a big mix of both? When it's addiction, you're gonna see this maneuver mostly when you back the person into a corner or you call them out on something. So they're not necessarily using this on you all the time. They're not necessarily trying to control you as much as they are just trying to like throw you off most of the time when you see this. Now if you're dealing with an addict and they use this like all the time, even not related to that, then it may be one of those situations where you have like a combo of both happening. But mostly with addiction, it's about. They're. They're kind of like fine as long as you let them fly under the radar and you don't call out the things they don't necessarily need, like your hero worshiper or anything. They just want to be left alone so they can do their own thing. Whereas a narcissist wants your constant attention all the time. Someone with an addiction probably doesn't really want your constant attention all the time. They may want your self pity sometimes because they know if you feel sorry for them, you won't call them out, but they don't really want the attention because they want you to leave them alone. So they can kind of like continue to secret life or whatever's going over here. That's the difference, because I know a lot of you going to be wondering, and it's sort of a big topic out there, narcissism. So this is a defense maneuver regardless of who's doing it. And if you stop and think about it and you get really honest, it's not all that uncommon or different. And we've all probably done this on some level or another. And if you haven't done it as adult, you've definitely done it as a kid. Okay. Sometimes when you get called out for something, you're like, immediate response is to say, no, I didn't. Like, have you ever had that? And you, like, literally said it before you could even think. And then. Then all of a sudden, like, you're backed into a corner. A lot of it. You know, if you have an impulse like that, it's sort of an instinct, kind of like in that fight or flight realm. And you might just immediately deny. Now, a lot of us were like, okay, yeah, I did that, or whatever, even though we maybe immediately deny. But the difference in some of this is when it's addiction, it can get nastier and meaner, and it's like really big spikes that come out. And so I want to give you some specific examples of how Darvo looks when you're dealing with an addiction, because some of you who've heard of this before maybe only know it in the context of, like, narcissism or something. So let's say, you know, a classic example would be, like, something like you find their stash, their alcohol or drug, their paraphernalia, whatever it is, right? And so you say, hey, I know you had. I know you drank yesterday because I found your stash. Whatever it is, you call them out because you found it. And then they say, that's old. That's been there. Like, you're.

You're crazy.

And why are you being so paranoid? Like, holy crap, I feel like I'm living in a police state. You see that? So first it's deny. That's old, right? And then it's turn attack. And it's in. The way they attack is to sort of turn it on you and make you be the villain and you be the bad guy, which is why we work so hard on this channel to teach you how to not let them put you in the background. And this is one of those situations where you find yourself in the bad guy roll. It's like, what. What just happened? And it Literally happens within three seconds. You're like, holy crap. What? And then next thing you know, you're defending yourself. So like, when they say to you, you're so paranoid, you know, this is like a police state, immediately you're gonna want to say, look, I wasn't even looking for it. Like, I literally fell out of your pocket. I was washing your jeans or whatever. You're going to want to explain yourself. And that's, that's not a good idea here. We're going to get to what to do, but it's a natural response. But you've got to remember that one of the, one of the MOs here with someone's addiction is they want you to act crazy and get riled up. Because when you do that, that deflects off of what's going on. So you got to really. Not only does it not work, so you need to not do that, but you need to resist that urge because you're not gonna work, but they're gonna use it against you. So let's not do that. Okay, here's another example. If you're wondering where I'm licking because I wrote all these examples down for you, let's say your loved one misses their therapy appointment or something like that, and you find out about it because maybe like the office call and they said, hey, where's Christopher? He didn't show up or whatever, you know, and then you say, and then they might say something like, I didn't even know I had an appointment. Like what? You didn't even, you didn't even tell me I had an appointment. How's I supposed to know? And you know what? Why is that all you ever care about? That is all you ever talk about. Did you take your medicine? Did you go to your appointment? Is that all that ever matters? You know what? You're the freaking crazy one. You want these to go to the appointment anyway, that is Darvo. Now, as I'm going through these examples, give me a little emoji in the comments or chats. If you, if you're like picking up what I'm putting down, I like to send to me. It's like when you talk to people in real life, you can kind of get some non verbal or non verbals coming at you, like head shaking. So it's just nice when I know you guys are following along. You're like, oh, amen, sister. I've done seen that, you know, it lets me know that I'm on track. I'm explaining it right. Let's say another Example might be you're missing 50 bucks out your wallet, right? There's missing. Maybe, maybe it's money missing out your wallet. Maybe it's money missing out of like your joint account or something. If it's your spouse or something like that. So let's say you say, hey, like I'm missing $50. Like, did you take that $50 or something like that. And then they may say something like, what are you even talking about? I don't even know where your wallet is.

Is.

Why do you always think it's me? It doesn't matter what happens. Any little thing goes wrong and it's my fault. You know what? Maybe, maybe, just maybe it was your golden child Susie over there. Did you ever stop to think about it? It's not always me. Did you like that? It was pretty good, right? Just ninja tactic. And it's like that, you know, combination of different manipulation skills used in a very fast sort of sequential order. And then the next thing you know, you're feeling bad and you start feeling like we the same as Susie or whatever. And then you just want to go into all that. Don't do it. It's a mistake. Right? I just want you to know what these look like. All right, I got some more. Look at all these notes. I got a lot. Let's say maybe your loved one, they just came home from treatment and part of their aftercare plan was they agreed to go to Iop or they agreed to go, that's intensive outpatient, if you haven't heard of that. Or they're going to go to like 90 minis, 90 days, like a 12 step thing or something like that. And you know that they didn't go. In fact, you know that they actually told you they were going to go. And actually what happened was they went over to their buddy's house or whatever and was probably being sketchy. So you call them out and say, hey, like I know you didn't go to your meeting. And then you might get something like, they told me I don't even need to go to those meetings. I mean, they don't even help me. In fact, they're actually making things worse. Why are you always trying to control my recovery? It is my recovery and you need to focus on you. You're the one that needs to go to a meeting now. That one's gonna hit home for some of you. And some of you might be like, well, that's kind of true and there is some truth. You shouldn't try to control someone's recovery, okay? So there's a little. There's always a little truth in what they throw at you, which is why it's so hard to, like, I call it, not bite the fish hook because it hits like a sore spot with you. Yes, it's true. You shouldn't try to control someone's recovery. And I don't really suggest you be driving by to make sure the car's there or micromanaging it. But if. If in this example, this person has said, hey, this is what I plan to do. And that was their plan that they came up with that. They said, this is what I'm going to do. And you're just saying, hey, are you doing that? Or, I know you didn't do that for accountability or something, and then they throw it back on you. That is a manipulation tactic. Now, if they feel like you're micromanaging their recovery and they want to sit down and have a conversation with you about it and say, hey, I'm feeling a little smothered, you know, can we talk about this? Can we get a boundary that's healthy? It's all cool. Like, it's not. It's not that it's not okay to ever bring up something that you did wrong. It's just that. And we'll talk more about this a minute, but it's not okay to bring it up and throw it in your face as a weapon to get themselves out of the current trouble that they're in. It's kind of like. Reminds me when you're a kid, you know, and you get in trouble, you're like, well, Heather, my sister, she did two at first, you know, it's just this immediate, like, well, but they did it or whatever. You know, you did a bad thing, too. And so that's why in this case, it's a manipulation tactic. Not just like drawing a healthy boundary about your recovery. It's about how it was brought up, when it was brought up. You know, the tone, language, all that kind of stuff. It goes into the. Into the mix. Another example, which is a common one that a lot of our family members face is like, let's say your loved one just arrived home, they drove themselves home, and you know that they're intoxicated. Maybe they smell like weed or they. You smell alcohol in their breath or something like that. And you say. You call them out on it. You say, like, have you been drinking? Because you can smell it or whatever. Or you can see it in their people. They look funny or whatever. And then they say something like, oh, my God, I had one drink like three hours ago. You act like I'm falling down drunk. You are so ridiculous. Like, is it your full time job to just run around and try to catch me doing something wrong? Like, does that make you happy? Do you like that quick ninja move that happens so fast? Now, are you guys relating to these examples? In a minute, when we get over where we take some questions and comments, I want to hear your examples. Because I know these are just a few that I came up with when I was just thinking through it. And they just came to my head like, immediately quick. Because they're like classic ones, you know? But I bet you guys have some good ones too. Now let's move into responses. So you're like, yeah, Amber, you sending me the amen? Yes, that happens to me. Now you want to know what to do about it? The first thing you wanna. The first thing you want to do is, is sort of be more like proactive to it. And the best way to avoid this, it's not. Not calling them out, because I do. Even though you guys know I'm all about positive reinforcement, I don't think you should be stupid. I don't think you should completely turn a blind eye all the time. And I think it's completely appropriate to call someone out, especially if it's like the driving intoxicator or something, you know, like, you have to do that. So when you're going to do that, what I think works best, and this doesn't work 100%, but it works best is if you can just say what you know. Don't ask the. Don't ask a question. Don't say, did you go to your meeting? Don't say, have you been drinking? Don't say, did you steal the money from my wallet? Just say the facts that you know. Because if you say, did you. You're just going to get an automatic lie. I mean, don't. It's just like an immediate response and then you're gonna be even madder. So don't do it. So don't ask a question. Just say, hey, I noticed this. And then keep your little self walking. Don't stand there and wait for a response. Don't go back and forth about it. Because when you do that, you're just leaving room for all of this stuff. And sometimes it's what the person needs is they need to know that you know, but. But you need to give them a little space to like, absorb it so that they can respond or react more maturely or effectively because it's just immediately when you get called out. And. And we're all like this to some degree, right? If we're called out, we're just immediately defensive. And this is why they're doing that. I'm not saying it's okay or making excuse for it. I'm just trying to tell you how to, like, avoid hitting that trip wire, which is always the best tactic, whenever possible, is doing just don't hit the trip bar. But that doesn't mean you're walking around eggshells. So call it out. But just say what you know and just move on and just let it simmer, let it sit in the crock pot. Let them decide what they're going to do with that. Now if that doesn't work, if you can't just sort of say it and move on or whatever, because sometimes you can't, then. And they start. And you start getting the darvo, you know, you're the left, the right punches coming right at you. Then what I want you to do is I want you to work really hard to resist biting whatever it is they're attacking you about, because they know where your sore spots are. You know, they're gonna say you're just like your mother or whatever. They're gonna know whatever your thing is, and they're gonna hit that. And then you're going to want to defend that. And I want you to just totally, when you know that it's darvo, you're not even gonna. You're just gonna be like, whatever, here comes the right hand. And when you know it's coming, you can just, if you think about like karate or something, you just, like dodge those punches or whatever because, you know, it's going whatever. So when that happens, I want you to not bite the hook that they're going to throw at you. I don't want you to bite the, well, Susie's the golden child fish hook. I don't want you to invite the, you know, you're just like your mother thing, or you're trying to control me thing. What I want you to do is first, I want you to make a process comment. And what that means is I want you to comment on the interaction that just happened right there between the two of you. The dynamic that just happened versus what they're saying. Because what they're saying is just a deflection. And so a process comment might look something like, obviously, you know, this is a, you know, obviously this is a sensitive topic. Maybe we should give it some space and come back to it. So you're, you're commenting on what's happening. You can say it feels like you're turning that around on me or like you're, you're biting me about that when I'm just asking you. So you're acknowledging and you're calling out what's happening. Because sometimes this happens so fast. Sometimes a person just does it and they don't even, they don't even realize they're doing it. Like it happens fast for them too. So calling it out brings their attention to it. And if they're in a reasonable and rational enough state, they might can like calm down at that point. But even if, even if that doesn't work, it's like when you call out exactly what's happening, you just like took the air out of it. So the tactic doesn't work anyway. It's literally like you're just going to dodge the punch and then it doesn't work when you, when you know what's happening and you say, hey, like, why are you making this about me? This isn't about me. And say, you know what's going on, or say, I feel like you're getting all angry as a way to like deflate this conversation and throw me off or something like that. The, if that doesn't work and they persist at coming at you with, well, you did this and you did that. And especially if whatever they're throwing at you is like something that you feel like there's a little truth in, and maybe it is. They, you know, a lot of times people bring up something you did from childhood or whatever, you know, you never took me to dance class, whatever it was, and you, maybe you do feel bad about it or whatever, you know, what I want you to do at that point is it's okay to acknowledge that that's an issue or maybe something that you need to work on, or maybe something you did that you regretted and you can acknowledge that, but then get right back on track. And so what you can say is, you know what, you're right. Like, I might be hypersensitive to this or I might be over controlling or overlooking. And I am willing to look at that and talk about it. I don't want to avoid that at all. But right now this is the topic of the conversation and that's just another way, it's like another version of process comment, of call out what is happening here. And so you're, you're going to acknowledge if, if there's really something there to be acknowledged. You're right, you know, that is something I made a mistake on or I wish I wouldn't have done it. And we can talk about that, but right now, let's finish this discussion. And that, that brings it back into focus. And I've seen this happen in family sessions so many times, and it's usually my client that does it. And I've seen it happen a lot, too, with, like, kids and parents and stuff like that, even in session, in front of the counselor. I've even seen it happen when, like, the family's not even in the room and maybe the client is upset about something and they did something wrong and so they're busted and then they're mad at the world because they're busted or whatever. And I'll even have to say, look, I know you're right, and I know you're fussing about that thing your mama did when you were 12. And. And I think you're right. I think we do need to talk about that. And we probably need to have her in here. We need to have some family sessions about it. But right now we're talking about this. And so even in a session without the family there, I'll sometimes have to, like, call it back and it's okay to give it validity, but then redirect back onto, like, the topic at hand. And then lastly, I want you to just follow through if, if there's any boundaries or you said you were going to do something or not do something, whatever, if you've put that out there, which there doesn't always have to be, but if there is, like, if you said, if this happens and I'm going to do this, then you just need to do it. You don't need to explain why you're doing it. You don't need to, like, try to convince them to see your side, because when you're doing that, you're gonna. You're gonna inadvertently be overstepping their boundaries, and mostly you're just going to be feeling the argument. So don't do that. Just follow through with what your plan is. If. If there was such a plan around whatever the thing was, then there doesn't need to be a plan around every little thing that the person does. There really doesn't, because that's just going to exhaust you. It's a lot of rules you have to keep up with, and you don't want to do that. So I say make as few rules as possible so you can make a game decision. But. But like, like, for example, if. If the issue was, like, your spouse came home and they were intoxicated and they were driving the kid in the car. That's the thing, right? That's the thing we got to deal with. And so whatever you've decided that boundary was in your head, then you need to sort of move forward with putting that in place. Like, from now on, I'm gonna pick them up, you know, take them soccer practice or whatever, or, you know, you know, I'm not comfortable with you driving our kids unless you have like that, like, breathless or thing in your car or whatever. So whatever the boundary is that you've thought about and decided on. So we're just about to get to that part where I want to take your questions and comments. And what I would really love is I would love to get some examples from you of this specific thing. You've watched it happen to someone else, it's happened to you, or maybe even you've done it, and you want to say, oh, yeah, I used to do that to my mama all the time. And this is your way of like confessing out, making amends, helping somebody else's mama or whatever. I'd love to hear your examples about that. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to put the link up to join us now. The past, when I've done this, we've sort of picked one person and we've dug into their story a little bit. But what I think I'm going to do is I'm just going to put the link up, and if there are several of you that want to hop on here and share, we won't stay on it long, but we'll. We'll get a bunch of examples from a bunch of people or however many people that want to share that. So I'm going to put that link up here. And if there's no one that wants to come on live, y' all know I always say, I understand that you don't always want to put your business out there. I totally get it. But I'm putting the link in the chat right now. And if you're watching this on the playback, you can't join us because you're not live with us. But if you ever want to, we usually do this on our lives, which are every Thursday at 1. So the link should be coming up there. You should see it posted there. And in the, in the meantime, I will tell you, as I always tell you, there are always more descriptions in. I mean, more resources in the description, if you need a consultation, more specific advice about your situation, if you're interested in our online courses. There are lots of other things and there are even lots of other resources besides us in the description. Because I know we can't fix everything with one YouTube video. And it's deeper than that and it's complicated and I totally respect that and give it. I do try to tell you everything I know that is general enough. That pretty much fits for almost everyone. I try to put it right here on the YouTube so everyone can have access to it, but they're little nuances to everyone's situation. And sometimes we need a little help, like custom fitting that plan to our situation. Or like, am I doing this right or should I have said this? Or how should I deal with this when this is happening? Those kind of things. We need a little more help. All that's in description. All right, so we will take a few questions and then if anybody wants to join us, we'll have you on here and maybe we'll get some good examples of some Darvo, Nadia says you didn't see the link. I'll put it up here again for you just in case. It's like it says Streamyard because that's the software I use. So it's like HTTPs Streamyard is what it looks like. All right, let's see who we got with us. Let's say hello. Thank you guys for joining me live. I really appreciate that. Hey, Amy, Nikki and Nadia. Let's see here. Oh, we have two Amy's, another Amy on here, Powder river, which is Crystal. Hey, glad you're here. And Tobias, I think that's the first time I've seen your name Toyus. I'm glad you're joining us. Thank you. Thank you for the comment. Amy says, I'm so confused if my loved one is a narcissist first and then an addict. Because behavior is so much like a narcissist. It really is. Can be kind of confusing. And actually I was thinking about just today I made a little some notes about making a short on this. But one of the big differences, just to give you a quick answer, is most of those narcissistic behaviors that you see from addiction, they're centered specifically around the addiction. Like they may do things that take advantage of other people and seem like they don't have empathy when it comes to fueling that addiction. But you don't see that lack of empathy in other areas of life. You don't see all those manipulation tactics across the board. You usually specifically see them related to maintaining that addiction in some way, which Is like throwing you off or making you feel sorry for them or making you feel like it's your fault. You'll see those same manipulation tactics, but the purpose is different. And another big difference is, I think I said this one. But narcissists want your attention all the time. And accident, alcoholics don't. So most of the time when they're doing these tactics, it's really to sort of push you away and deflect you off, make you shut up and go away. Not to, like, make you look at them more. It's so it's same behavior, but different intent and reason. And it is important to figure out the difference because one of these things is more fixable than the other. And that one is addiction. Addiction is more fixable. Thank you. So, Scarlett, it was me, not you. So we'll get you back on here. Hey, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you.

Do you have an example of the Darvo technique or a question or something else you wanted to share?

No, I'm kind of new here. Just kind of feeling it all out and seeing where I fit in.

Okay. Is there any. Is there anything that we can answer for you or anything that you need specifically?

I'm dealing with a serial cheater who's addicted to the thrill. So just trying to see.

Like, addicted. Like addicted to cheating is what is what you're saying.

Yeah.

Okay. We actually. I just made a, like a four part series on love addiction and it's coming out in February. I made it because everywhere's Valentine's, so I made it specifically. So keep your eye out, Peggy, because it's coming and we talk specifically about that. And I hope that it's helpful for you.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. All right, let's see here. Scarlett, we're gonna try again, okay? Yeah, I hear you. Yes. Wonderful. Okay.

My 45 year old son is going through a divorce with a narcissistic female. And he just signed over everything, the house, everything, and just up and left. But he is so depressed and he does nothing but sit here and drink. The other day he had a job interview. He obviously had a couple of, I'm gonna say, fireball shots, those little, little baby shots on the way to his job interview. Well, they smelled it on him. So, you know, they didn't hire him. He come home and was telling me, because he's staying here with me. Like I said, I'm 72. He's staying here with me and. And he's. I swear, Mom, I didn't have anything drinking. I'm like, I know you're lying. I mean, I could tell he was lying. I could tell not only by his eyes because they were bloodshot and red, but the way he was even talking.

Right. It's like super obvious or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he continues trying and make me think that no, he, no, he didn't do that. He was, you know. Yeah, I had a little bit. I had a six pack night before. I'm like, Jeremy, you know that doesn't.

No, no, that's not working on me. Yeah, try again or whatever. That's what I would be thinking.

I'm just, I'm just at my wit's end.

How long is this like separation or divorce been in process or happening? Six months. Six months. Here's what I would say. I have. Obviously I don't know him at all. I definitely don't know his wife, but here's what I would say. I don't know if she's narcissist. I don't know any of the story, but what I would say is he. But he's probably is drinking more to deal with that, the, you know, the divorce or whatever. But the fact that he's drinking on the way to an interview tells me this problem did not start six months ago.

No.

So it tells me he had a dream problem while that relationship was going on, which is probably at least part of the contributor of what happened in that relationship.

Exactly.

Just like he did you and he tries to make you think you're crazy and then you get irritated. You could have, I don't know how long he's married, but you could imagine what the wife did and she could have acted crazy. Maybe she's narcissist. Maybe she acted like a narcissist in response to that behavior. So like I said, I don't know if she was a narcissist. But I can tell from what you're describing to me that this alcohol problem's gone on for a while. And so you got to be really careful. It's. It's easy because people have alcohol or addiction issues, they'll try to split you against the other people in their life. Especially the other people that know maybe some truth about it that you don't know. They try to keep you apart. So it's like you wanna, you wanna work hard to have empathy for him for going through a divorce or separation, regardless of why, because that's hard on anyone. So you definitely want to have empathy for him, but you also don't want to let that be an excuse.

Right, Right.

And that's going to be the hard line where you have to really, like, balance it out.

So, you know, I even told him, I said, well, do you need help getting off alcohol? I mean, I'll, you know, I'll take you to rehab. I'll do whatever. You know, it's like, no, mom, you know, I'm okay. You know, but he's not okay.

Right. So you need to sort of back up because you're. And this is common, you're skipping steps, right. You're dealing with someone who says you're crazy. I don't have a problem at all, like, completely. I didn't even drink. And you're saying, do you need help? So y' all are on 2,000 miles, different pages apart, right? Like, he's at the beginning of the book and you're at the end of the book. And you need to back up to the beginning of the book and work on some of the techniques for helping someone come out of denial. Before you ever try to sort of say, do you need treatment? Because when you're always saying, do you need treatment? Or maybe talk to a counselor or something, they get irritated with you saying that, and they feel like you say that for everything. So you. You want to save that for when the windows open. And you kind of, like, need to go backtrack a few steps and start with techniques on how to get someone to see that it. That it is a problem. And there's like, there's a. There's playlist on the YouTube channel, which is totally free, that you've got playlist on how to get someone out of denial. There's a playlist on how to influence someone to get sober. And if you want to go full course into it, then you can look at our, like, online invisible intervention program, which is like the laid out step by step. How do you sort of train and move them along the stages of change? So. But that was a perfect example. You were right on with the Darvo, sort of the gaslighting thing, the ninja Gaslighting. What? I didn't do any. Like, that was like last night or whatever. It's pretty classic, right? I bet a lot of you had that one that Scarlett's describing. All right, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it.

All right, bye.

Bye.

I think we have Bridget. Hello. Thanks for joining us.

Can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you. I think it was me that was causing the problems before. So do you have an example for us or a question or something like that.

Well, I mean, like, I have plenty of examples, but.

Okay.

I mean, it happens often.

You could write a book.

And I do want to point out, like, I know that from our, like, the. The loved ones side, it definitely. We do that too. More than. I feel like a lot of us.

I'm really glad that you said that. Yeah. Like. Like, like, if they catch you snooping or sneaking or doing something, and then it's easy. It's easy to get in that.

Yeah, it's even.

We just.

I. I feel like I. I feel like a lot of people that, like, I talk to that gone through similar things. Like, it's really easy for us to get on the defense and feel even more justified. I feel like, in a way, because we're kind of like. Like, how dare they say anything to us? Like, we're not the ones they do, you know, like, whatever. So, like, that's really easy to fall into. And I've. I've definitely realized that. Not that, like, that's how I'm always thinking, but like, like, if he. If he says something to me, like. And that's kind of happened recently a lot, which I. I've tried to not even react because I've done that. I've done the reacting. And it doesn't work. It right does. If you can get to the point where you're not biting at what they're putting out. Like, you really. The more you do it, every time, you feel a little bit more empowered and, like.

And eventually you train them not to sort of come at you that way. So, yeah, it doesn't work. I love. I feel like that was just so insightful, what you said. I love what you said about, like, the family member can do that too. In fact, I've done that. I'm glad that you said that because that's a big piece of what I want you guys to see. When you hear about Darvo, you hear about it in context of, like, horrible, mean, terrible people. Okay. And that happens. But it's a pretty common defensive strategy that we can even do ourselves without knowing. And what you said about when we feel hurt, we feel vindicated and justified to say a bunch of mean things to the other person. And that was dead on. Yeah, perfect. I couldn't have said it better.

You were.

You. You nailed it.

My biggest thing, I just wanted to ask for some advice on, like, because I've been. I've been trying, like, for one, I've tried to, like. Like, if he does say something to me, even if I feel like that defense in me creeping up. Like, I've. I've gotten. I cannot react. Like, I can do that and call myself. The biggest thing that's, like, hard is, like, if I say something to him, try to address something, and he's doing, you know, he's trying to, like, deflect or whatever. If I try to say, like, you know, like, we, like, I understand what you're saying. Like, we can talk about that. We can have that conversation. But, like, first, let's. Let's have this conversation. I've tried, like, many times, and I feel like. I mean, I don't know, maybe I just need to keep trying. Maybe, like, I expected him not to be, like, receptive at first for sure, you know, like, he doesn't.

The process comment doesn't.

Yeah. Like, if he's just. He'll just kind of like, stop and be like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Like, he'll just treat me like I'm, like, just trying to be like a smart aleck to him or something. Or like, he'll treat me like I'm like, whatever. He'll be like, oh, no. Well, this is what I'm bringing up is. Is exactly what you're talking about, too. Or something like, oh, like, even if I'm like, again, like, okay, well, we can talk about that then. But first, like, can we, like, address what I brought up?

Yeah, and I think. I mean, when someone's in that emotional state, it's hard to get them out of it, right? Because they're not in their reasonable mind. So one thing you might. I don't know that this would work, but you might. Could have a conversation. Not during one of these times. Not when something's happened and you need to talk about something serious. You could, like, back up and in, like, a neutral time, ask him what would be the best way to bring up something to him. Because you. You really don't want to put him on the defensive. And you can say, I'm even trying to, like, really work on how to respond to you. And I don't want to back you into a corner. I don't want to start a fight. What's the best way for me to do that? And then have him tell you the best way for you to do that. Because then when you do that, it forces him to take more ownership over, well, I'm doing it the way you told me to do it, you know? You know, he might say something like, well, just like, give me some time to think about it. Or he might say, like, okay, you can talk to me, but don't be saying something to me all day long, like, you know one thing or, you know, not right before I go to bed or right when I just wake up. He may give you some kind of something something, and that empowers him to have some control over it, but it also, I think, put some responsibility on them. If you're saying, okay, you made the rules, and I'm playing by the rules, and now. And it kind of, like, really highlights the dynamic there, doesn't it?

Yeah. So, like, just to clarify before you get off, like, okay, because I feel like I always.

I'm.

I am bad about that. Like, I want to, like, not talk about things like when we're. When, like, emotions are high and stuff. But then, like, so I won't. But then once emotions are calmed down, it's like, oh, I. I can't bring.

This up because then you don't want to ruin it. Like, whatever.

Even if it's not like, we're, like, just happy, it's just like, that does something that makes me feel like. I don't know. It just makes me anxious just thinking about trying to talk to him about it. Like, And I'm. And I know it's gonna, like. Or I feel like it's gonna automatically, as soon as I say anything, put him on the defense. And, like, so, like. But you, like. So if I, like, was to sit down with him. I know this is so hard for you to answer because you've never met either of us, but, like, you feel like. I guess I always try to. I don't know. I'm kind of in the role where I'm. I try to, like, avoid even, like, asking him, like, questions about, like. Like, I'm not asking him, like, if he's using or, like, what he's doing or whatever. But I do. Like, I don't want to just completely always turn a blind eye. And, like, I don't want to. Like, I. I feel like there are a lot of necessary or a lot of times where, like, I should have kind of just let him know. Like, I know. And, like, whatever. So, like, if I was to sit down with him and just say, like, like, how do you feel? Like I should. Like, if you do come home and you haven't told me that you've done anything, and I can tell, like, you're obviously high or, like, whatever. Like, like, how. How do you feel? Like I should respond? Like, is that what you're saying? I should ask him?

Like, so you're Giving him some say in, like, the ground rules of maybe how each of you. You bring up a concern, a topic, a question or whatever. So you're. You're sort of empowering him. Another thing I think you can do is you can even say, you can couch it with the. I'm probably being crazy and paranoid, but, you know, here's the story I'm telling myself. Tell myself that you've been out drinking or whatever it is, you know, and you can even couch it in. I could be wrong, but here's what I'm thinking, which is another way to try to sidestep the. The button, but it's not always effective. One thing. Another thing I've seen our couples counselor Kim do with couples is have them set up literally, like either a once a day or once a week time where they talk about it, like couples meeting or whatever. Like, we had a couple we dealt with, and they called it, like, coffee time or whatever. And it was a time that had a limit on it. You know, 30 minutes, you know, one hour, some probably not even an hour, like, less than that.

Where.

This is the time where we. It doesn't even have to be. Bring up grievances. It can be touch base, figure out what the plan is, get on track about, like, bills or who's going where or schedule anything. But this is the time when we bring it up. If. If either one of us has a concern or whatever, that's the time to do it. And it. It's nice because then the other person doesn't. Neither one of you have to feel like it could come at you at any time because it's contained. Unless it's like an emergency, you know, it's contained in this time. So that's another technique. Now you could try all of the things I'm telling you, and they may not work. And when that happens, it's because you're just dealing with someone who's completely, like, irrational, and they're just. They're just trying to start a fight with you on purpose. Yeah, I definitely doing all that. They're just trying to argue. Yeah, yeah, I know right now where.

We'Re at, like, it's not good. And like, our community, like, our communication level is not. Like, I don't. I mean, we've had poor communication, but we're not even, like, I can acknowledge. I'm not at a. We're not at a place right now where I could go home and be like, hey, let's set up a weekly time where we can talk, but, like, I. That is a good idea. Like, if we. When we get to a point where it's more appropriate for me to try to, like, introduce that, that is a good idea.

You could. If you're worried about, you know, how do I even bring that up? You could even say something like, you know, the other day, I know I said this, and I feel like maybe it came across like I was attacking you or something. I really don't want to do that, you know, because that's not fair to you. She could say it that way. If you try all these things, I'm telling you with all this, like, humility and willingness, and it's not working. It's just because he's not gonna let anything work. I'm telling you. So you're. I can tell that you're. You take ownership of your part, which is really great. And you're even a pretty good listener because I saw you even use reflective listening with me. You're like, so what you're saying is, so you're using a lot of good skills. You're using. I'm watching you use them. So all you can do is your part. And then other than that, he can get mad. And it may just get to the point where, you know he's gonna get mad, but you're gonna say, hey, you know, another $100 missing. I don't. I don't know what the deal is, but you just say it and then let them let it simmer. And you're not trying to start a fight, but you also can't just ignore it either. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it. All right, everybody, let's see. I will got a few more minutes, so I'll scroll through here and take just a couple of more questions. Let's see. We have a question right here from Earthen Soul Child. I've heard of it. My husband is an alcoholic, but I also have a hard time understanding if he's a narcissist. Yeah. And I do have a video on the channel that is directly related to that. And I think I said earlier, I'm actually going to make a little short about that. But the difference is, is what is the goal of the behavior? And you can kind of tell with an addict that the goal of the behavior is to support the addiction. Even if it's the same behavior. You can see what they're trying to get at, which is. Which is just different than when it's a narcissist. I mean, narcissist is Going to start a fight with you when you're not, jump into their every whim when you're not paying attention to them when you're not. And that's not what an addict's trying to do. An addict's trying to, like, sneak and get by with that kind of thing. Looks the same, but different. My dog's going crazy. Amy says, do addicts do this with all the shady stuff they are doing? Are you saying do they do the. The Darbo, or you're saying, do they do this related to every shady thing? No, it's just one of the techniques. And, and you may have seen this, Amy, but I have a whole. I have whole playlist on manipulation tactics. This is just one of them. And, and this one is really like that combination effect of them. Sometimes they use different tactics, other manipulation ways. So. And usually the people that do this, what they're doing is. I call it like the puffer fish method, that I'm just going to get really angry and spiky and I'm going to train you not to call me out on things. Things, because I make you walk on eggshells. There are other techniques. Like, maybe they make you feel really sorry for them or they make excuses or, you know, there are other ways to do it. So. George, Georgia says Darbo is common in the interrogation of criminals. I don't know if you're like me, Georgia, but my like, side thing is I love to watch true crime. I don't know why this is like, twisted or whatever, but I love to watch interrogation videos, which you can watch right here on YouTube. And you're right, you can see.

You.

Can see Darvo when maybe the person is caught and they're trying to explain what they did. And then they try to like, be like, they made me do it or I had to do it because. And they sort of put it back on someone else. They don't necessarily try to do this to the police officers. And not that I have police experience, but I've watched a lot of these videos. They don't try to darvo the police officers, but they may try to convince the police officer that someone else really did something to them and they couldn't help it or something like that. Usually in interrogation, they. They try to play really calm and really cool, and that's really what gives them away because, like, if you're being accused of murder, you're not gonna be common cool. So it's like they're trying to keep it under wraps. And when they do that, it keeps Everything in wraps, and it's not natural. Amy says my sons want us to leave them alone most of the time. We want. We want to stay connected, but don't want to cross boundaries. But should we be calling, texting, etc? That's a really good question. And I get that a lot. Like, should I reach out to my person? Especially if the person's, like, not in the house. And if they are in the house, what I would say is try to make whatever interactions they have with you, for the most part, positive. And so in one way to do that is to not talk about heavy topics all the time. Not saying never talk about it, but if you're easier to talk to and they're not scared that, like, they're always in trouble or, you know, that you're always upset with them, that'll train them that maybe they do want to be around you more. So you may have to sort of back up and work on the relationship. So if they're not there and you're texting them, sometimes I'll say, yeah, sure, text them. But text them a funny meme or a dog picture or, you know, when Aunt Sally did last week or something like that, that you can kind of connect on that. That's not saying, like, I'm not here to try to attack you or judge you or whatever. I would try that. And. And sometimes I just don't want to talk to you, no matter how nice you are. And that happens. And if they, they literally say, stop texting me and don't call me, then I would respect that. Scarlett says my son continues to lie. He lost his job a couple of days ago because he was drunk at the interview and he continued to lie to me that he hadn't drank. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's. It's just that flat out lying. He's maybe not trying to make you be the bad guy here, like a Darvo technique. This is just a, maybe even a little bit of gaslighting or something going on here, making you think, like, why are you accusing me of that? So the thing to remember here is, Scarlett, you don't have to prove a case. I told you, I watched True Crime. You don't have to have evidence. You don't have to prove a case. And I don't suggest that you try to do that. I don't suggest that you try to get him to admit it to you, because he's just going to dig in and then start a fight. And then you might get like, the Darvo technique. Coming at you. So you know what, you know, you don't have to get him to admit it. And he know and he knows, too. So it's just a power struggle at that point trying to get him to say it. Powder river said he lied 99 of the time, and 1% of the time I called him out by mistake. He acted offended that I could even think that thought. Yeah, that's kind of an example of. Of Darvo. It's not too much of an attacking example, but it is. It's a. It's a. It's maybe a milder version, I guess I would say. I can't believe you would say that. To me, it is kind of, though, putting the. Himself in the victim role and you into the. The bad guy roll. All right, everybody, it's been awesome. Thank you so much for all of your willingness to have conversations with me. Those of you who came on here live, it takes a lot to do that. And not only do I appreciate it, but all the people out there watching who can benefit from it, they appreciate it, too. If you would like to support this channel, there are lots of ways to do that. Every time you guys come on here and watch me live or you like a video or comment on a video or leave a super thanks or in our membership or share video, you're. You're helping to support us, and we really appreciate it. I'll see you guys next Thursday at 1 Eastern.