Is it okay for people in recovery to use marijuana or drink alcohol?

All right, everybody, we have a really good, really controversial show planned for you today. We're going to be talking about whether or not it's a good idea or people can successfully use marijuana in recovery, and. Or I think there's some other topics that kind of go along with that. Like, the other question I usually get with that is, like, if I'm in recovery from drug addiction, can I drink? Right. And then other questions I get that are kind of related are, if I am in recovery, can I use CBD oil or can I use Kratom? Those are probably the most common ones I get. And we have Kyle here with us from sober dog. His YouTube channel is called Sober Dog, which is a really great channel. I encourage everybody to check it out. And the other day, Kyle, I. I listen to your videos, you know, pretty regularly, and I see one pop up there, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And Kyle had a video about this topic, and the way you explained it was different than I had heard it explained before, and it was about the lifestyle issue of it. And so I really wanted Kyle to come on and share with us his perspective on it. And before he does that or I say anything, no matter what your opinion is on the topic, it's totally okay. We can all have different opinions. I love to hear from different people, but let's be nice to each other about it. We don't have to be ugly. All right, Kyle?

All right. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for having me on. I appreciate it. And same right back to you. I watch all your videos and. Well, as many as I can. Incredible information. Yeah. So how I kind of explained it in that video and how it's always been for me as far as, like, the gateway drug of marijuana, of weed, it. I never smoked it and wanted to go do other, harder stuff. It wasn't necessarily like that. Alcohol, for sure. It was. Well, I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit. But with weed, what. What it always was, though, is when I start. I smoked it my whole first year of recovery, you know, about four and a half years ago. And I definitely would say it was a substitution to an extent, but that didn't lead me right back into heroin or any of that other stuff. It was as soon as I started smoking, all these little changes began to add up over months and months and months. And, you know, for example, I would smoke, and then I would skip a meeting or two because I'd be high and I didn't want to go high. Then people Would see me and, you know, besides Adams, you know, sitting on the couch or doing whatever I'm doing. Then I skip one or two phone calls with a friend or a sponsor, somebody I'm supposed to call. Then I'd skip the gym once or twice. And none of those were groundbreaking changes right off the bat. But they all slowly started to add up and just peck at my recovery program. Little pieces pulling out, pulling out of the wall. And then two or three months later after doing that. And I, of course, during that time, talked myself into. You're staying sober, you know, you're not doing heroin, cocaine, some of the harder stuff. Everything's fine with two meetings a week or whatever. The lower level was when that day came, when a bunch of different things kind of kicked my ass and I had the ability to get high. That wall was, you know, standing up. It was. What is it? The little pig blew it over in one second, however you want to put it, because everything was just so deteriorated, and all my defenses were down because my. My whole kind of lifestyle revolved around getting high, and I definitely looked forward to it. Like, I looked forward to the harder stuff, which I knew was bad from the beginning. You know, even in the morning, I'd wake up and, like, my whole day revolved around getting X, Y, and Z done so I can get stoned.

That was one of the things I wanted to ask you, was when you did that. And. And I will say this. First of all, I have seen people do that on a couple of occasions and keep it somewhat manageable. A couple of occasions. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people where that does not end well. So I'm not saying it never happens. But one of the things is. And people, you know, the way they'll always say it is, you know, what's wrong if I, you know, smuggle, you know, hit the bowl once every now and then? I'm like, nothing. But part of my question is, is it every now and then? You know, that's like. You know, because I feel like now, especially when it's in the vapes, it's like, all day, every day. Like, all day. So my question is, is, like, when you were doing that, would you. Regardless of recovery or not, would you have seen that as, like, was it, like, excessive? Was it moderate? What would you say?

Well, this was 2016 and 17, so I'm sure they had them, but I definitely. I didn't have, like, a vape. And a lot of the new stuff, it was. It wasn't excessive. It was just here's where I. It's a little unique in my. Excuse me. It's a little unique in my story. Anyway, from day one, at 13 years old, the first time I smoked pot, I don't like it. I never have it. It was to me, just like another thing to add on because I will do anything you put in front of me to get out of Kyle's head. So there was this love hate back and forth where I would do it. I'd get extremely paranoid, have a little bit of enjoyment watching a movie or something, but I would kind of talk myself out of it. So it wasn't very excessive. But with that being said, like. Like you mentioned a moment ago, with a lot of the people that I do meet and know in recovery who smoke, I see the trend. Definitely more than 50% end up taking it up a substantial notch. That then what they either planned on or what they would call healthy usually always turns into a daily thing because it becomes the new coping mechanism. You know, that's the trend I saw. For me, it was probably started maybe once a week. And before. Before I relapsed on heroin and everything, I was probably at three times a week. That's also access to. I was. I was. I wasn't just going and meeting and buying it from somebody. I was taking it from somebody I knew. You know, hopefully they didn't notice. So I would take little bits here and there. So. Yeah, so.

So let's just say if someone was, you know, there's this term out there. It's not a real thing, but they call it the marijuana maintenance plan. Right. If someone's out there and they're on the marijuana maintenance plan, recovery plan, how would someone know? Because I hear people, you know, a lot of times people say it's the only thing helps my anxiety and this and that. How would people know whether, like, it's an effective medication versus, like a, like just a coping skill, like you're calling it, versus, like a sort of using it to not deal with things, you know, like in a counterproductive way.

Yeah.

How would you differentiate that?

I really have to take a deep, hard look when I'm not stoned at my lifestyle regarding everything around it. I would really want to analyze, like, what am I doing to get it? Who am I getting it from? Who am I doing it with? You know, what times of the day am I doing it? I mean, regardless of it's a medication or not, especially how powerful this stuff is now, like, if I'm nailing my. My pen three or four times before I walk into work. I mean, most people are going to be pretty buzzed. Stuff like that all to me starts to add up in the negative lifestyle aspect versus like, so I have somebody pretty close to me who's not in recovery, just a normal person. But this person for years, you know, would just like 7 o' clock at night take a hit and they don't drive. Everything else in life has been great. That would be more of like doctors have been telling this person for years, like if it becomes legal, I will gladly give it to you as a medication. You've been using it for 20 years. Exactly as like you would take your morning antidepressant. That would be the case. I think it, you know, can probably be looked at like that. But again, that's a rough example because this person is not in addiction, never has been. And I guess I don't know how test what like with an antidepressant or something. I've taken multiple of them, SSRIs, SNRIs, where two, three, four weeks into it, when it's build, you know, it builds up on your system. I've noticed a substantial positive change or nothing or negative change. So I guess I'd want to really look at that too. Like if I, if I was smoking three times a day a week, what in my life has gotten better, what has gotten cut out, what is not going well, caused by this or that could maybe be a lot of work. But something I think is essential, you know, because like you said, you know, if it does start going down that negative path, it's just going to take one time and boom, we're back in a relapse.

Well, I completely agree and I think what you're, what you're talking about is, you know, your recovery requires extreme honesty with self honesty. And you know, it's, can you, can you look inside and be honest with yourself? Because you're the, you know, you're the only one that knows. The person's the only one that knows like why you're doing it, what the intention is, how much you're doing. Like, and you, if you're going to call yourself or consider yourself in your recovery, you have to be, you know, just so vigilantly honest. And if you can do that, then you have more chances of success no matter what the substance is. And kind of like what you're saying, you know, I will say in most things on addiction recovery, I'm, you know, nothing is really black and white for me. I'm pretty flexible with it. I will take a stand and say, because I've just had this discussion every time. Is it addictive? It is addictive. Okay. So I will take a hard stand on that. There's plenty of science out there that says that if you're not seeing it when you Google it, it's because Google shows you what you want to see, like social dilemma style. So there's, you know, and plus I've just had so many people, especially in the last few years, come into my office and tell me they were addicted to it. Like, yeah. You know, and people just don't come in to see me and think they're addicted when they're not, you know, it's not want to do. So I feel like when people come and tell, it's not me telling them, telling me, yeah, like I'm stealing for it and I'm like, it's causing all these trouble and I can't eat and I'm throwing up and I'm down to 110 pounds. And you know, all this stuff. Stuff.

Yeah, we, we were talking a little bit earlier about a little bit of the pushback with, with some of these topics because it can be, you know, controversial especially. I could see too, from a parent standpoint, if their child is on the street, you know, going nuts with, with heroin or whatever, and now they just smoke a joint and have a job and are somewhat stable. It's like, well, hey, harm reduction. And I'm, I'm all for that, but it does. And you mentioned a second ago, the self honesty. I noticed that big time. Because at the same time I started it, I was just getting involved in AA big time and in 12 steps. And I continuously, while I'm trying to be as honest as possible with the people I'm working with, which is helping me a ton, I'm lying to them every day about this one thing. And it just added that dishonesty to it. But, you know, in the end all it did was hurt me, you know, and a lot of them saw right through that too. So it wasn't, you know, again, it was just me lying to me. But yeah, I, I had something else I was gonna say on that. I forgot. It'll come to me in a second.

But I really like what you just said there about, about dishonesty. Because, you know, when you just said I was using like three times a week, someone kind of told me, as an addiction professional, I'm using three times a week. I wouldn't call it an addiction in generally just as far as like quantity and stuff.

Yeah.

And it doesn't even sound like it was interfering in your life, except for some really subtle ways when I was listening what you said, which is I was being. What you're saying is I was being dishonest to, like, I don't know, my sponsor, my fellow groupmates or whatever. And when you say that, and then you also said, like, and I was not wanting to go to meeting, so it tells me that you're struggling with shame. And then you said something else, which was I was taking it from someone else. So even though you weren't even using that much, it was causing, my guess, a lot of internal unrest.

Yep.

Which is part of the addictive cycle. It's not, you know, I say addiction is not what or how much you're using. It's about what kind of problems is it causing you. Not the substance.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, you know, they always talk about a lot of stuff, too. I learned at group and different things of, like, you know, when you. You get into recovery, it's putting the substance down or substances is just step one. You know, there is. It's all about the lifestyle change, all that. And just like you mentioned, all of them perfect a second ago, that stealing it, that lying to myself and other people, that skipping a couple things here and there, all that was just one more thing of staying in that addiction lifestyle. And this, this next statement's a little different now, I guess, but the one thing, at least for where I am in New York, but the one thing I said too, in the video a couple weeks ago was what really bothered me then, too, is the couple times I did go buy it. It's. I'm going to the neighborhoods I'm not supposed to. I'm meeting up with people who aren't the best people. And, you know, at least one time out of that, the person I would normally go to or wanted to go to, and this is towards the end of it, when I stopped taking it from the friend, wasn't available. So I went to a different person who, of course, didn't just have weed. They started asking me, you want this, you want that? I, at the moment, declined. But that's all these little negative seeds planted. And now I know it's a little different. Like here in New York, it's legal. And so the trouble part of it is not as high. Ironically, it's a little bit funny, you know, as we're having this about two weeks ago, maybe three, I'm still on New York State parole. My parole officer knocks on my Door. I'm here to let you know you can now legally smoke weed. It's taken out of your parole conditions. You can now smoke weed. It's been legalized. I said, okay. Do you want to come in? Nope. I'm just here to let you know that I was like, okay, I don't smoke, but I appreciate it. All right, bye. And it was like, I just. It just minor little thing, but it was something I was really thinking about for a while. And I don't know how I really feel about that because I'm all for the decriminalization. And I know there's been a ton of people over the decades locked up for, For. For, you know, weed. That's just so unfair. But at the same time I'm thinking, like, I don't know if just giving a, A get out of jail free card for somebody like in early recovery, coming out of prison or whatever, to just smoke all day is the best thing. Again, I don't. It just was like this. I don't know. What do you, what do you, like, How. How does that make you feel as an addiction counselor?

Not because it. That's not the part that scares me. That's the part that he, like, took the time and effort to come knock on your door and tell you that. Because that's what I tell people all the time. Like, addiction doesn't have, you know, there's the legal thing and then there's addiction, and it's two separate things. Like. Yeah, you know, there are plenty of substances that are legal that are addictive. Right.

Yeah.

And so when you're dealing with somebody, like, you're saying that's maybe like early in recovery and vulnerable, that could so easily send someone spiraling. Yeah, right. I'm just like, I mean, I don't know that he had to come and announce it, I guess, is what I'm saying. Like, you probably figured that out anyways.

Yeah, well, I, I mean, as far as that part goes, I think by law they had to. I. I don't know. I. And I also assumed they probably rolled it into one. Like, I know they have to do X amount of monthly check ins on you edge, you know, outside of their office. So I'm assuming they were like, okay, we have to go tell them, well, let's kill two birds with one stone, go check the house out, say hi. But yeah, it was definitely a unique. And in like alcohol, you know, you could be 60 years old, never had any crime to do with anything alcohol, and you still can't have A beer on parole in New York, which I always thought was interesting too. Like, but now I could just smoke pot all day and do.

I didn't know that. I didn't. I didn't know that. That was like a lot. That's strange.

Yeah, it's in everyone's parole conditions, alcohol. And it's, you know, it's this unique, weird situation, like, and I mean with. With alcohol, I guess to pivot a little bit. I know for myself and 99.9% of people that I've came across, alcohol for recovery is terrible, just a disaster.

So speak on that a little bit because, you know, I think what happens, and I've probably done this myself, and I've definitely heard lots of addiction counselors do this. You know, when. When clients are asking about this, we don't take the time to explain. You know, we get lazy about it and we say if you do that, it's going to lead you about other substances. And that's what I like about your video, because you really traced the pathway so well. And I think for a lot of people, if you just explain it to them, they're like, okay, I can see that. You know, sometimes we oversimplify things in recovery. There's so many slogans, you know, keep it simple. And then we just don't even explain something, you know, which isn't fair. So tell us about alcohol for you. And while you do that, I need to get my computer cord because I'm framed. My thing's going to. So entertain us. Okay?

No, no problem. For me, the alcohol, it's, you know, the one thing we always hear is that it lowers the inhibitions and. And that's what makes it what it is. The social lubricant parties, everyone has a couple drinks and there it does, you know, really does make a looser atmosphere for people that don't have a problem. And I totally get that. That's part of what I was chasing. You know, nobody wants to be at a awkward funeral or wedding and not be able to have a glass of wine or something to take the edge off. But for somebody like me and the majority of people I work with in recovery and come across, it is the second I get that first shot in me, I get that taste. Soon as that taste. If you do follow the 12 step method, this is when they always talk about the, you know, the allergy kicking in. But regardless if people do or not, that taste kicks in. And then it is like I can almost map out each consecutive drink or shot where every time I have one more. When I do have that first one, it's like, game over. I can't. You know, I can't and won't stop. I will keep justifying it, but then every consecutive drink, all those ideas that even an hour prior when I was sober that were, you know, terrible, don't do that, that would destroy your life and everything you work for slowly begin to be sound better and better and not as harmful and, you know, I can't think more adjectives or whatever to describe it, but as soon as you know that fifth, sixth, seventh beer shot, whatever's in me, an eight ball sounds great. I could do it just tonight. I won't get in trouble. I could do a little bit of this. You know, things driving, just all these bad ideas are so don't seem bad anymore. And almost every person I know who, like, let's say their drug of choice was heroin or coke or something like that, if they do decide or did go on, you know, drink a little bit before the end of that first night was over, they were using that other drug almost always. It just never works out, you know.

Well, with alcohol specifically, you know, it turns off your filter. It literally turns off the part of your brain that allows you to make the decision not to do that. Right. It's not just every, you know, when you're saying, like, now it doesn't sound like a bad idea with alcohol makes everything not sound like such a bad idea. Right. So, yeah, so the. The. The part of your brain, the frontal low part, which would allow you to not decide to go back. And you, you know, I always tell my clients, like, the part of your brain that's helping you remember that you're in recovery and you don't do cocaine anymore, if you're gonna turn that part off. Yeah, right. So I do feel like when. When I say, you know, the substances both can lead you to trouble, but for different reasons. Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's like a slower, slower progression, which I heard somebody say the other day, and I thought about this too, is this person said, I'm glad that I found crack because it actually got me to recovery quicker, where they thought the alcohol would have taken them longer. And I really sat back and thought about that, and I was like, this is a fascinating way to look at it. So on the flip side, with a relapse, I know for myself, if I started drinking right now, most likely before midnight came around, I'd be doing other substances with. With marijuana, you know, it'd probably be Two, three months. But it's still, for me, at least, almost guaranteed that I would at some point. Just that slower build, which gives my brain more time to justify it and everything. Up until using the heroin or whatever, I would find a way to be like, it's not that bad. You deserve a joint. It's medicine now. It's legal now, you know, fill in the blank.

Right. Well, I think, you know, I've. Sometimes. I say this all the time. People sometimes get shocked. And, you know, it's kind of like sometimes people say, you know, what's the hardest drug that you treat? The hardest drug that I treat is marijuana. And the reason is.

Wow.

Is because it's really, really, really hard to get people to see how it's affecting your life, because it affects you so slowly that it's hard to put the dots together. And it's kind of like, you know, the way I explain it, it's like when you're little and you're out in the ocean and you're playing and having fun, you look up at your parents anyway, you know, and then you go back to playing for 10 more minutes, you look up and your parents are going, like, they left me. Yeah, Marijuana's like. It's like you wake up 15 years later, it's like, they left me. It's like, no, dude, you. You know, in the ocean, it just moves you, but you don't feel it, right?

Yeah.

With marijuana, it keeps you from moving forward. So that's what I say. I'm like, it probably won't ruin your life. It's not gonna, like, destroy you, but it might keep you from moving forward. And for a lot of people who are trying to get in recovery, you know, they're digging out of a hole, and they got a lot of moving forward to do, and you don't. You don't have time to just sort of sit back and chill out all the time because you're digging out of this ginormous hole, right? And you need to stay motivated and engaged and ahead in the game. So it's not so much. I think it's bad. It's just, to me, it's like any other drug. Like, you take any drug out there, and some people don't have any trouble at all. Most people won't have any trouble at all, but for some people, it will become problematic.

Yeah, that. That's a. That's a great analogy and a great way to put it. I don't know if it's just me, Amber, but your mic still is A lot of rattly, I don't know, just don't want to make sure for everyone, they can hear you well, all right. I don't know if there's people on the chat or whatever if they could hear you well, but make sure I got everything. Yeah, that is exactly, you know, exactly. That's a cool. That's an interesting analogy with looking up from the water. But yeah, that's how it is. And, and the other thing for me too is especially in that beginning, like six month year period, I firmly believe that starting off a healthy recovery in that period involves getting, answering those questions that I've avoided for my whole life, getting to those roots, whatever it is, that childhood trauma, that self esteem, this or that. If I don't hit those things and find out what is, you know, poisoned at the bottom of the root and try to fix it, my recovery is not going to be good. It is going to always have that hidden area that could just, you know, sprout up at any time. And by getting high for me, it always prolonged me facing any of that stuff, whether it was with a therapist, a counselor, a sponsor, whoever. It just gave me another reason to kind of avoid it and you know, again, justify whatever I was doing to, to cope with not wanting to be sober or not wanting to live life. A clear head. With a clear head. Yeah.

Let me ask you this. I know I didn't prepare you for this. I'm just gonna throw this question at you.

Fire away.

I've gotten a couple of emails and, and also a couple of sessions separate than the emails. I've dealt with some parents whose kid, like one of them, I think they had a child in the halfway house. Another one whose kid would just come home from treatment who decided, I think they, some of these people live in a state where it's legal. So they went out and got their kid a marijuana card because that's what their kid wanted. And so then the, the parent starts holding it and then dosing it out to them or trying to put like these, you know, like, okay, I'm gonna hold you back and you come get it like X times a day or whatever. And I'm just always like, oh. I mean that's just like problematic for about 400 reasons to me. But what do you, what would you, what advice would you give those people? Because I'm getting a lot of like, what should I do? I think I made a mistake. You know.

You, you said this a couple video when we did our last video together and it was, you know, Phenomenal. So on point again, something that should almost seem simple, but sometimes goes right through our head about when after somebody goes to treatment, they should not go back to that house, you know, especially if it's like a teen with parents, like, go somewhere else. To me, that would be the start of it, because then I wouldn't even have to deal with it. And they could be in an entirely new environment where, you know, they could learn how to be an adult and handle stuff. But again, if it's past that and it's already the case. Yeah, I think that's. That's very problematic. If I had to go to my parents to get that, I'd be pushing their limits all the time. Anytime they said no, I'd build up a resentment and be pissed at them. For some reason, they're also, like, holding my reward. So I'm gonna sit there and lie and justify why I deserve it or need it for the day or why I needed to get up and all that. If it was already the case, how to, like, get rid of it. If they got it legally, I would see can they somehow transfer something to the doctor to where now the kid has to go to the doctor to get what they need? At least they. The parent can kind of take the burden off themselves as being, like, the gatekeeper, whatever it is. And then hopefully the doctor and the person can do, like, a. A lean off it. That would be the way to go. That's. That's hard because like you said, once you're in, it started it, like, all right. Weeds a part of my recovery. I smoke every day. I'm not doing heroin. Life's going better. It's gonna be so hard to convince that person not to.

It's really hard to change the rule once you make it. And that's okay. When I hear that scenario, which I've heard tons of times actually, you know, one scenario is like, I tell my kid I couldn't smoke in the house. They could smoke, you know, down in the barn down there. And then they're mad because the kids always in the barn. I'm like, well, you know.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, I love that you said coming home, because probably that's like my big soapbox. Like, when it's a young person.

Yeah.

When it's like an adult, a married person. But when it's a young person, it is always a bad idea.

Yeah.

And then, you know, if you've got the question we're talking about, which is, does the marijuana put your recovery at risk? That's a problem. But then there's the whole gatekeeping it yourself. Yeah, that's a whole nother problem. Which is what. What you're saying, Kyle, which is so smart because you're thinking, oh, yeah, I'd be pestering. And that's what I'm getting in the letters. Like, you know, like, they're pushing my limits. We're fighting about it all the time. You know, they're coming and sneaking. Anyway, you know, just now you're back on the addictive behavior because of the gatekeeping part, so.

Exactly. And. And it is such a tough issue because, like, I go back and forth on this sometimes in my own. In my own. You know, I know for me, it's not a good idea ever. But, like, if somebody just a year ago was on the street, you know, doing whatever the heroin and overdosing, and now they're. They are smoking a joint, like, part of me is like, okay, that's the harm reduction. And, like, it is a lot better. It's not great. Great. And like, take a step at a time. You know, I always complain about. I. I still use nicotine. And I. My addiction counselor, when I asked her, she said if I had a. I asked her once about rehab, she said if I had a rehab, I would up smoke breaks because I want people to focus on what they're there for and not worry about nicotine at the time. So I think about it a little bit like that, but there's so many areas of it that have to be, like, analyzed and done in the right way. And. And I would do whatever necessary. I'm not a parent, but as a parent, to not be in control of that like, that, to me, is something I would not even want to have. Because that. Yeah. Then that's also part of the recovery is hopefully rebuilding the relationship with the parent child. And that's never going to happen with that because, you know, you hold my high now, if I'm seeking it out through you, and I'm gonna do whatever I got to or say whatever I got to. To lie about it. So, yeah, we.

I pretty much always think it's a bad idea to hold anyone's drugs for any reason. Like. Like, sometimes it's like, okay, like, I got a prescription presented, so I'm not going to use it. I'm gonna let my wife.

That's the catch.

That always causes a conflict in the relationship. Now, if some. Let's say, if you're in recovery and you had to have a surgery and you had to take Pain pills for five days because you had to. Yeah, okay, like maybe it's a good idea then. But as far as like putting this other person in this responsible place to gatekeep it, you really setting up for disaster, I think because it always ends in like argument and sneaking and feeling and blaming a mess.

Yep, exactly. It's, you know, there's a weird analogy, but to me it was so true. It's not necessarily with addiction. A buddy of mine's father's an accountant and he wanted to get in the same field as his father and work for the company. And the father said, of course, you know, the company's for you, you and you. I'm going to pass it on to the family. But your first two years, you go work somewhere else and learn everything. So we're not fighting each other in the beginning where I got to teach you all the basic basics of everything and I translated that into recovery. Like if I'm on day one at my parents house in recovery, there's going to be a lot of things. If my parents, for example, you know, have wine with dinner. Neither of them are in addiction. They've done so for, I don't know, 40 years. You know, Italian family. There's little things like that I might nitpick and build up this and do that because it's like, you know, do as I say, not as I do or this and that. But they don't have to. They never had a problem, they didn't go to prison, they didn't do heroin. And that's where getting out of that whole environment in general would be so helpful. Halfway house, a treatment center, supportive living, whatever the case. And then at least, you know, an official counselor, somebody like your, whoever can kind of manage it better because you and my mom can tell me the exact same thing. And it's going to click with me. Totally different coming from, you know, my authority figure the whole life and a thousand. Yeah, yeah. I would really, if I was any of those parents, do what I do something like immediately to make sure that I wouldn't say just cold turkey cut them off necessarily at all. But like I. This is not for me to dish out to you. Let's go to the doctor, all three of us, and, and figure out a solution where I'm not this person doing that.

Right. It's just a bad idea to try to manage someone else's recovery to the family member, whether it's the spouse, the parent, the sister, whoever. That's what I always say to the families. I'm like, let me do it. I'm better at it. Like, let me be the case manager, you know?

Exactly.

Do the drug, you know, get the alcohol, breathalyzing results. Let me get all that. You're right. Because I could say the same thing they say, but because there's such a history of hurt feelings and mistrust, it just triggers it all up and it's just no good.

Exactly. Yeah, that. That's so on point. And I mean, you're the expert. You're the one who went to school for. You're the one who sees people every day, knows how to deal with it. And the parents are always also going to be the last ones to see when it's an issue, typically, I guess, or the closest ones to them. You know, that's how I always noticed it too. Like, because. And of course, it's not. That's not a knock on them by any means, but who wants to be the parent? To be like, you know, admit, oh, my. My baby boy, my baby girl is doing terrible. You know, this. It's clearly their drugs are destroying their life. That's why it always ends up seem to be like that secondary outside circle. That's like, you see what's going on with Billy, you know, something's happening here. And the parents. No, no, it's this or that. So I think they'd be a little bit blinded to the weed as well, with how it's maybe affecting the child's life or the recovery program or work or fill in the blank.

Right. Yeah. I just think. And even. It's not even so much that. It's, you know, my way of saying, let me do it, because I think I know more. It's not even. It's because I'm an outsider. Like, if or when, if my kid was struggling with it, they'd have to have their own person. Right. It's not. It's not a matter of, like, I know more. It's a matter of like, let me do this for you. Yeah, right. And then you can be the wife, the husband, the mother. You don't have to do everything. So.

Yeah.

Let me ask you about this. What do you think about CBD products? What's your stance on that?

With THC in them or not?

Not.

I. I don't have a ton of knowledge and experience on them. I don't really see an issue with them. You know, I tried. I tried a couple. Like, my. My dog had whatever she had, so we got a really strong cbd. And there was a couple times I. I Tried it supposed to relieve your anxiety? I personally never noticed anything, but as long as it's the no thc, I don't really see an issue with it. But again, I would look at, like, the little habits and lifestyle and everything around it and building up to it, because where I see my brain going with that is okay. It's. I mean, I guess none of them are 100% THC free. You know, they have like micro. You know, 001% or whatever. But I could see my brain going to. Okay. This didn't really do much for anxiety. Let me. Let me try one with 1%. You know, powerful weeds. Got 40 or 30, so this is nothing. Yeah. And just keep pushing it a little bit more. So I'd want to keep an eye on that. And also, I. Again, I'm not qualified to really say this. I'm just saying what was told to me. I have two family members who are pharmacists, and one's a doctor. And they always have stories of, like, the last three years, everyone comes to us, give me CBD for this. It'll fix this. I heard it could cure this, like, this magical thing. They're like, it's not bad. Sure, it could help some stuff, but it's not. This cure all. Like, that's just gonna fix everything.

That's my. That's my thing is exactly what you're saying is like. Yeah, I don't really. I'm not really worried about it as far as, like, I wouldn't consider it a relapse. I wouldn't.

Yeah.

Where it put your recovery in, Jeffy. But I do know, like, a year or two back when it was first, like, really, like, the big rage, I had a couple of young clients who were getting in a form where they were smoking it, and then you could also get it that tastes like marijuana. I was like, okay, if you're going to do it, I'd rather you not do it that way just because I think that is a true trigger.

Sure.

But it's not as much a cbd, but. But I was just really skeptical because where we live is just like literally every gas station you got to your hairdresser, every billboard. And it's like, it fixes arthritis and ADD and sleep. And I'm just like, really? It just makes me skeptical. But it's not so much. I'm. I'm worried about a relapse. So I'm just like, really? It fixes everything.

Yeah.

If.

If it. If it did, wouldn't, like, you know, the. I Don't know if the exact number is the 7% of the population or 5 who've been smoking it the last 20 years, have all these ailments fixed.

You know, That's a good point.

Like, yeah, yeah, it's just one of those things. And. But I mean, apparently I obviously can't understand. Well, I understand dogs pretty damn well. But no, I mean, it helped the dog and I know it help some people, but it's one of those things. Yeah. As far as the tasting it and like smoking, I would, I would stay away from that. From a personal standpoint. 100. I wouldn't want anything that tastes like that reminds me of non alcoholic beer. I've had people offer that to me before and I'm like, no. And they're like, what? You know, you could do a toast. I'm like, there's just no reason for me to do that. Like, I wouldn't even want to add that potential trigger or tempt myself there.

Yeah, I agree with what you said. I'm glad you brought up alcoholic beer because it is exactly like that. Like some of my clients do drink non alcoholic beer that are alcoholic. And, and I don't, I, I don't consider that a relapse. I don't. I mean, yeah, there's a micro mouth in there, but it's not going to intoxicate, so I'm not worried about that. But it tastes like it smells like it feels like it sounds like it when you crack it open. And the more senses you have involved with the trigger, the more likely you are to relapse. So I do talk to them about that, but it's not so much because I think the substance itself is problematic. It's just such a reminder, I guess.

That's a great point. Yeah, absolutely. All those senses, you know, I didn't really put the whole picture on it like that, but that's an incredible point. Something, you know, on that same line for me was, you know, working in a kitchen, we would put our pans on the burner. You know, during busy hour, we'd have a couple pans on with low flame just to make sure if we screwed something up that we have a hot, hot pan ready to go. Now when they start really charring and burning, you get that burnt smell, that burnt metal smell, which to me smells just like crack because you're burning the Brillo in a crack stem. That the second I would smell that, I would, oh, I'd get nauseous. I'd have to take a step like the Guys that worked with me were like, go ahead, take five. And they know I'd go out. I, I, you know, call my sponsor. I would do something. It just changed my mindset. But the second I smelled it, totally unconscious, controllable by me would trigger a crack in my brain. So I, I would put, put that with alcohol. Like, I just wouldn't even want to. Yeah, or I guess with. Same thing with the wheat. You know, the, the smoking th or CBD that has tastes like weed.

Yeah, I think, I think you, I mean, it's so strange because anything can be a trigger. You know, I used to have a lady tell me her putting on her high heel shoes was a trigger. And I'd say, why is that trigger? She's like, because when I put these shoes on, it's when I'm going out. Yeah, okay. Like, you know, it's just, you know, that can be very personalized for people. But I guess another thing I would say about if you're gonna smoke marijuana, don't do it in the same old environment where you did other drugs. The same old people you did with the other drugs. Yeah, because maybe the marijuana is not a problem. The trigger, I guess it's just so complicated. I really just want people to be, you know, I'm always saying, strategic, educated. Understand what you're dealing with and make a wise choice. I'm not telling you not to do it. I just want you to understand it from every angle. All right, last question. What do you think about Kratom? Because that's the other one I get all the time.

I, my, my personal opinion is, no, I'm not a fan of Kratom. I don't have experience with it. I have never personally done it. Ironically, I went to buy yesterday. I still use nicotine, like I said. So I went to my vape guy and there's a big box of Kratom. You know, you could buy a kilo of Kratom. And I just thought that was unique. But I have not heard anything positive come out of Kratom. Occasionally I'll get a comment here there on like an opioid withdrawal video of somebody that said Kratom helped me a lot. But I asked, you know, my addiction doctor and some of the people I do seminars and stuff with and, you know, they broke down the brain chemistry and how it hits the same areas. You're gonna have to withdraw from that at some point too. People compare it to like Suboxone and stuff like that. But I don't see the comparison necessarily because first of all, if I'm buying Kratom at a head shop, I don't know what's in it, how it's not going to be the same every time versus someone's taking Suboxone as prescribed. They know what it's doing, it's helping the cravings, it's got the blocker in it, Kratom's not blocking anything. And then back to what we said a minute ago, it's like the whole lifestyle around it of what am I smoking? Am I smoking out of a bong? It's going to trigger this or that. And from everyone I've heard too, is you do get some type of high in effect. Then again, I'm still seeking this addictive behavior, this high that I'm avoiding kind of that recovery part of it. So I, I don't, I don't have any, you know, stories or experiences where I could say like, that person did it for three months, stopped and turned their life around. So I'm not a fan. Again, I'm not telling people don't. I don't really know enough to really jump into it. But from everything I have put together and the people I've talked to, including like, you know, the addiction doctors and stuff, they haven't seen any success with it.

Right. I think somebody on here is asking, Melanie's asking what Kratom is. And it's a, it's a, it's a legal sort of. People call it like an herbal thing. People will relate it to like, like it's like tea or caffeine. Because a lot of times people will put it in a drink and stir it up. Yeah, but, and I was telling Kyle this earlier. I've had at least three people come to see me on their own. Not like for, but come to see me because they were addicted to. Come in and tell me they're addicted to it. I, I have, it is, it's, it has an opiate like effect and it works on similar sort of brain receptor sites. So the withdrawal from it, because you can get dependent on it for sure.

Yeah.

Are similar. Maybe not as extreme, but they're similar. And what, what I've seen with it, and this is just what people tell me, is that you build tolerance to it really fast. And before you know it, you know, I've got clients and they're spending like 800amonth on it or something, you know, like, and they're like, this is ridiculous. Right. And, and the tolerance just keeps building. So. And then you do have withdrawal, getting off of it. Now, I have had some and I hope no one takes this as me advising you to this because I'm not out there. I'm not advising you. I'm just telling you I've seen it done once. I had a client who was taking it to help them stop taking opiates. They literally took it for like a week or two or something. You know, it's like people, what happens is you just develop a dependent dependency on it, you know, and so then you get stuck and then like I said, you end up spending all this money anymore and more and more and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, exactly. It. I, I don't have the highest and healthiest trust level for pharmaceutical companies and stuff. But you know, with something like that, just at least where my brain goes is like, you know, this thing that I'm buying that is just unregulated. I have no idea the quantity. I'm doing everything on my own, self prescribing and all that. Versus like, I'm a big proponent if people are struggling, especially with heroin, if they need it, like get on, you know, Suboxone or the shot or Vivitrol or something, you know, of course it can be abused, but I've just seen it help so many people versus trying to, quote, take it into my own hands with Kratom.

And.

Yeah, I just, I, I would, I would advise people like go the other route, you know, definitely. If, if there's option, if that option should hopefully be open.

So there's a. Somebody on here, Kathy, is asking me to ask you about wax.

Wax? Like, like THC wax? Yes, I, I'd put it in the same category. I mean it's all, it's all the same thing to me. Like if I smoke the blunt right now or wax or a vape or, or popped in edible, to me it's all pretty similar. Like the actual smoking is not necessarily trigger because I, I still use tobacco. I don't smoke cigarettes, but I vape. But like, it's all about the effect I'm seeking the effect. Like I want to get stoned on something. That's my goal with that. And it wouldn't matter what you fill it in with. Wax, blunt, bong, anything. If my end goal is like getting this high and then that's affecting my recovery. And then like we talked about that slow deterioration of other parts. It's not positive to me. It's just, it's going to lead somewhere that is not good. Even if it takes a long time and that we Talked about that quickly. But that. That's the misleading part, is a parent might see their child get better over three months. Wax, smoking, whatever. And it's like. But I would watch all those little habits and what has. What is changing and what isn't there still, and what should be tweaked and what, you know, what are they not doing that they need to be doing.

Right. And there may be some people on here that are wondering, like, what wax is. This is different form that people get thc, which is the active ingredient, marijuana, out of, but it's a very strong and potent form of it. So I agree with what you're saying. It's like, regardless of the form or how you're ingesting the substance, it's pretty much the same thing. But if you're using wax, it tells me something about your tolerance and the way that you're using THC already. Right. It's kind of like heroin is the same thing as a pain pill. But if you're using heroin. Right. Like, usually probably means we already got a problem. Right. So I would definitely say that. All right. And we're going to finish up here. Tracy says there needs to be more channels that deal with addiction recovery. And I am going to encourage Tracy to go out, go over and check out Kyle over at Sober Dogs. I have another friend who has a channel. I think it's called Addiction Recovery. There's a lot of good channels out there. And if you know of one, if you guys know a good channel, be sure and post it in the comments so that other people can know that it's out, that it's out there. Thank you, everyone, for joining us.

Thank you very much. I'll give a quick plug to. To addiction. I think it's addicted mindset. A guy, he's in. He's out of Buffalo. But it. I was gonna bring it up earlier real quick because he does kind of some of the unique addictions. Energy drinks slash caffeine, THC and vaping nicotine are a lot of. Oh, and porn. I'm sorry. A lot of what he focuses on. So it's some of those things that we don't look at in a lot of cases as bad. And the last thing I was going to say is, you know, I want to be clear, too, that, like, I'm. Everything I said is, like, for myself and recovery, it's not generalized. For people who don't have a problem, who smoke weed, I really don't care, you know?

Right. Yeah. This is specifically for people in recovery. Like it's not even about in general. And I hope the message gets. Yeah, that everybody gets this. Just that it doesn't matter what the substance is or the situation. You need to go into it with a lot of honesty, thoughtfulness, planning. If you're doing something you feel like you can't tell someone, that's a good sign. That's trauma. It doesn't matter what it is. I'll leave you guys with that.

Thank you very much, Amber.