July- Member's Only Live Call

Hey, everybody. Welcome to our July Members Only live. We are excited to be talking to you guys. Thanks everybody who showed up last week. And listen, if you missed it, Kim did an awesome video. Campbell did two awesome videos. So make sure you check those out. Those are the ones on YouTube regularly. We have several questions that were sent in early to answer and then we also have the ones in the live chat. We're trying some different things to figure out how to organize the questions better. So we may try some different things over the coming months to figure out how to best do that you justice. Hang with us because we get so many that are sent in at different times throughout the week. And then we get the ones here we're trying to figure out how to.

So we ultimately want them to submit them here early, right?

We did. That's what I asked them to do this week. But some of the ones I put up there yesterday aren't there. So I'm concerned.

Right. But if we don't. If they all go up there from now on, it won't be a problem. You put up the ones that came early this old way. Right.

But I put them up there and.

Now I can't see them.

We'll figure it out. Just hang with us. We're gonna figure it out. All right. Our first question is from Cheryl and Kim.

Make sure you see. You see half your face.

Cheryl. That's it, Cheryl. Cheryl says after 2.52 and a half years of the invisible intervention craft method and 12 years of overall living with his addiction in our house, I told my husband I couldn't live with him anymore. He is a great dad and a good person and I know he's trying really hard, but I'm slipping under the waves with him. I told him I was moving me and the boys so that I could financially and mentally recover and that I wanted him to come with us, but I wanted to have some tangible change like. Like going on supplicate outpatient or inpatient. His reaction was brutal. He has often used the puffer fish manipulation with me. He did so again, yelling, etc. He seems very much done with me. He said he would never have left me if it were in reverse. He told his mother that he would never forgive me and that he'd never be with me again. It stings really badly. And I feel like though I actually want. I feel as though I want our marriage to work. I feel like he's ending it. I feel like I did everything right, that I gave my very best effort. What next? What is the Process is he going? What process is he going to play next? Did he mean the things he said? I have lived and functioned in chaos for so long. I never mentally prepared for the grief of not having him at all. I really thought he'd get help to keep his family. That's why I did it. But still thought it might push him.

All right, you want to talk first on what he's thinking?

I'll let you talk.

Would we know what he's thinking?

I mean, I could. I mean, I don't know what you guys.

Yeah, so I would say. I would say this is like we read a book a long time ago and it talked about shifting something and it said the sailboat right before it twists, it's like the sail almost hits the water. And that's what it feels like to me, that this is, is. This is just the boat is. It's turning around. You guys can't see my hand, but it's turning around and it's right before the sail hits the water where either the boat is either going to turn or it's going to flip. And thank you.

Your hand.

That would be my hand. So I think you just hold the line because you made this decision very intentional. You thought it out for a long time. You have lots and lots of reasons why you made this decision. And he's either going to continue with the addicted lifestyle, which you said was taking you down the waves and taking your kids down. So either that's going to continue and if you have him in the home, that chaos will continue, or he will decide to make some kind of change and then he will come back into the family somehow or the other.

This is just residual victim talk.

Talk more about this as far as what he's.

What he's being mad and blaming her and gaslighting her and all these, you know, I would never leave. I mean, to me that's just pure addiction talk. And I would keep the boat turning and see if he comes along or not, but I wouldn't back down.

I think some of it might be like just purposeful gaslighting manipulation. But probably a lot of it is him harboring resentments and self pity, which is still just addiction thinking. But does he believe some of that? He, he probably has convinced that at this point. Does he believe it like, like way deep down in his heart? Would he believe it if he was sober? Probably not. But in this addicted state of mind, he probably does believe it. But one of the things, Cheryl, when I read this is that you're sending some Serious mixed messages here. Because what you're saying is, I've done this for 12 years. I'm exhausted. I finally hit my breaking point. I told him I could no longer live with him. So you're saying, basically, I'm not living in the house with you anymore. But then you're saying, but I hope you come along with me.

Right.

But then you're saying you're sending some mixed messages. And. And ultimately it sounds to me like you're. You said, I'm going to leave. Not really intending to leave that. You said, I'm going to leave thinking that if I say it, he's going to know I mean it and he's going to change.

And this is the classic error. If you're going to put a boundary down, which you did, you can't put a boundary down unless you're going to hold it, because then you get into exactly. This quagmire that Amber just highlighted is people talk big talk about boundaries, and then they box themselves into a corner, and then they're sad or remorseful, and then your boundary means nothing. So you have to be very careful, you guys, about when you set a boundary, you better plan to hold it.

Yeah. It's hard for me to tell whether. And I don't know from reading this, but it's hard for me to tell whether Cheryl set the boundary thinking it would make him force him into the change, or whether Cheryl set the boundary, like, really meaning it. But then when it happened, got really scared and nervous and maybe felt like that pedaly a little bit.

That's my guess of what happened. But I also think it's important in. In that language to say, I want you to come with us, but in order to come with us, then this, this, and this has to happen. So you didn't say, I'm leaving you. I'm done with this relationship. You said, I'm done with this addictive, chaotic state. The kids and I are moving. If you want to come, great. Do these changes first. So that's the boundary that needs to be held.

So.

But I think it's the second one of what you said. I think she probably meant it in the moment and I think.

But then it gets scary. Right? Scary.

Right.

Which is normal.

Yeah, Totally normal.

You got to think that through before you said them.

Yeah.

Because they're going to test you. They will.

They will. And think about that sailboat.

Hold your hand up.

Sailboat.

Turning, not twisting is the word she meant. So when you're turning a sailboat and you pull the Jib, or whatever that thing is called, it's turn gets down really close to the water and most of us panic and jerk it back up, which means the boat doesn't turn. So you have to tolerate that so that the, the lines and the sails can do their work. And then it turns and rights itself. And this is where we all panic. We. We do it all the time. It's, oh, holy crap, it's getting ready to take on water. I don't feel like getting wet or this is going to be horrible. And we jerk it. And then we complained that the boat's still sailing out toward Portugal when we really wanted to go to Egypt.

Right.

And.

And one last thought. If this is a situation I'm thinking of, not, not 100, but this situation I'm thinking of, I feel like there's a big part of this situation which has to do with saving face in the community and that, that I, I don't want anyone to know. And I want to do this in secret. And I don't want to lose any reputation or whatever in the community is part of what's been keeping this person sick, keeping this person from seeking help. And when you leave, then it becomes obvious the community. So I think that also total guess here could have something to do with that.

This big reaction sort of outs him against his will.

Right.

But that's okay. You can still have a boundary.

Right.

And the puffer fish, I mean, you're right. There is a history of pufferfish that could be what we're looking at here, but that doesn't mean it's not scary.

Are puffer fish poisonous?

I don't know. Okay, the next one is from Elaine. Here it is. My question or comment pertains to the challenges of staying in the neutral zone when the spouse is in active addiction. Although I'm way less confrontational. It's difficult to hide sadness, disappointment, while having a front row seat of five year five of recovery effort, inpatient rehab, sober living, other tools, but nothing sustained beyond a few months. Having a spouse remain at home likely increases the chances of success, but at personal grade expense, I think there is a will to change, but definitely stuck. Any thoughts?

I think you've nailed it, girl. You totally have an understanding of it.

Yes. You got it. Yeah.

I think you just either have to try to be ugly and mean in the bathroom, in the shower, running, or recognize and just try to remember you're running a marathon, not a sprint. And right around mile 19. Don't know. Never run a marathon, never gonna. But I would think mile 19 is gonna suck. And you're probably mile 19 or 20.

Yeah, it is hard because it's in their best interest to remain in the home. It's not always in your best interest. And it's another reason why we do the lawyering technique. And that's another reason why it's so cool to have all three of us on here to look at it from the different perspectives. Because from. From the spouse perspective, I imagine there's a point that comes that's like, I gotta. I gotta do what's right for me. Right? Like, right.

The.

I've got a lot.

Lot of lake analogies in my head because we went to the lake on Friday 1. We saw an actual ST do that. And I was like, whoa, that's it in real life.

But the.

The other thing is twisting. Yeah, twisting.

That's what it looked like.

And the deck literally went up. But the other part is like a drowning victim. You figure when we're trying to rescue a drowning victim, they. They want to take us down with them. They don't want to take us down. They don't want us.

They won't.

They will bite, but they will. They will.

To save themselves because they're in such a panic mode that you are the only secure thing. So they'll hold on and they'll take you down with them and you'll drown with them. And so from a spousal standpoint, a lot of times it feels like that. And sometimes we have to let go of them so that we can catch our own breath. See, sometimes we have to let go of them because they will kill us. Other times we can figure out how to knock them out, pull them back, and be able to rescue them to shore, to some sense. And that's what the neutral technique is intended, is that when we knock them out, we don't literally knock them out, but what we do is we just. We. We flip them on their back so that their deflection and all of their addictive behavior, they can't get us as easily because we've immobilized them in some sense. But we get tired, and so we may have to let them go to some extent. And that was a really long analogy.

And also I would say, like, he's progress, not perfection. So if you have a day where your emotions come out and you're not so Nancy neutral, it's not the end of the world. You can apologize and say, hey, I lost my temper. I was frustrated. You can. You don't have to be Perfect. He's not being perfect. Do your best, but you can always lose your cool and say, you know, that was my bad. I. Terribly sorry. I didn't mean that. I hope you'll accept my apology. Just like you're doing as he's on mile 19 of recovery.

Right, Right. But I will say, just take it from my. My attic peeps, because that's what I do more, like, more and more frequently. Every single week that goes by more and more frequently, I get new clients that literally call and make their own appointment, and they start talking to me. And I say, how did you find me? And they say, my wife has been listening to your videos. And I'll say, how's the relationship? You know what they say to me? They say, you know what? She's really been great. And I can't believe it. And when they tell me that, I know that you guys have been working the plan, and I know that that is why they're on the phone with me. And I. More than that, that's why they're owning the issue.

Right?

Like, they're so humble, they're so ready when I talk to them. And I. I can just tell it. It's all the difference in the world. So it does work.

Yeah, but it's hard from the wife's standpoint or the husband's standpoint or the parent standpoint.

I mean, I called one of my children a piece of, you know, what do his face. Not proud of it, but I did it. I apologize. Later. Yep. Coming.

Okay. You want to read this one?

No, I don't have my glasses. Okay, I will though.

You're better reader than me.

Come on. Hey, everyone. I had a thought. I had a thought of a way to try to connect with my adult addicted son and wondered what your thoughts are. I watched your video about changing your mindset from negative expected outcomes to positive expected outcomes, which made me reflect on my own mindset. I've been waiting in the wings for my son to finally get sick and tired of being sick and tired. But I didn't see what was happening since he was in complete denial. He recently had a birthday and no one remembered it except me, including him. He spent it in his room after being badgered and berated by his addicted mother of his children. Obviously, this was heart wrenching for me, which got me thinking that what I could do to remind him what a fun life could be by taking him out for lunch, bringing him with the kids and me when we go to the park, and setting up a special outing with him and the kids to, like, go bowling. Question, is this enabling? Am I creating a false image of him to his children and creating false hope for them? What are the downsides to trying to do this? Don't know if he'll want you in these things, but I always think it's a good idea to try. Yes. No, it's not enabling. It is connecting. It is loving. It is being kind, and it is fulfilling your need to be kind and loving to your child.

Child.

As well as letting him know he's loved as a person. So, no, not enabling at all.

Yeah, you're. You're. It's his birthday and you're saying, let's go have a special day with your kids. It's looking after him for his birthday. It's looking after the grandkids. I don't see that as enabling. And I'll just see that as.

No, it's loving, loving. Remember, we're not not loving them. We're not punishing them. We're not putting them into this light black box of terrible people. We're just not enabling by feeding their disease, by taking their problems, putting them in our pockets and snow plowing and fixing their lives. Taking my first birthday. High five.

Right? Yeah. Now, there may be more to that story. I don't know if I have no idea all the background, but I don't know if you're paying his child support. If he's paying his child support. There could be some other things that could be happening, but this I wouldn't. I wouldn't call enabling. He may not want to go. And don't be surprised if he does go and he's not all that into it or pleasant.

But.

But there's nothing wrong with offering that.

Or no. And it's also. I want to address the false image to the children. Perhaps it's not a consistent image, but there. If he goes and he's pleasant, it's not false. I mean, he is a person. He is in there. So if they see a glimpse of their dad as a nice guy. High five again. If he's. If he's churlish and not pleasant, then they'll be like, well, they're dead. Like, so either way, I don't think. I think you're in a win win.

I agree.

Yep.

Okay.

Okay. Enough of the papers.

I think there's one more, but we can take an X through it.

I assume that was just the top part. My bad. I'll read it. I'm sorry. Okay. All right. My spouse went to treatment for 30 days for alcohol dependence. He has drank for 20 years. He has been home 15 days and has stayed sober. He is very depressed on many medications, doesn't want to spend time with me or my daughter, and isolates himself all the time. He goes to IOP three times a week, sees an addiction counselor at his IOP once a week. He has been to 1am meetings outside of Trema. He's been buying scratchers ever since he got out. Is that a big scratch off like a ticket? Yeah, that might be back scratchers. Even though he said he wouldn't. I have said something to him once. He said he would stop. He hasn't. I went through the invisible intervention with him for over a year before he agreed to inpatient treatment after he tried all the outpatient options. My concern is that he's always had a problem with gambling when he was drunk and used to spend outrageous amounts of money on scratchers. He would also buy Vicodin whenever he could and spend a lot of money on that as well. He used to have a wisdom tooth. He had to have a wisdom tooth removed yesterday and the dental office knew he just got out of treatment for alcohol. They prescribed him Vicodin. He did call his therapist and tell him that he has Vicodin because of the dental procedure. He gets drug tested as iop. I guess his therapist didn't think it was a big deal. Of course he is in great mood yesterday. He's carrying the pills around in his pocket with him. I'm worried that because he's still participating in the process addiction and now he's taking his substance that his brain healing is going to be halted even though he's not consuming alcohol. I'm also concerned with finances because he's just going to keep spending more and more money on scratchers if he keeps participating in that addiction. But I also know from the invisible intervention I can't really say or do much without him pulling me back into the bad guy role. But I don't want to pay for his addictions because he is currently not working. So I just don't know what to do. This is a big one. I also know that I don't want to make a big deal out of this to discourage him because he's staying sober from alcohol. But I'm afraid these behaviors will lead him to buying more Vicodin and relapsing on alcohol. Should I call his therapist? No to that. Now we'll address the other things.

The one of the things I hear when you're reading that Campbell Is it? There's a frustration with the dentist for prescribing it, and there's a frustration with the counselor for not telling me, couldn't have it. But first of all, the, the dentist probably can't refuse to give someone pain meds completely that just had a tooth pulled. You can't, you know, like, if somebody came into the hospital and their leg was chopped off, whether they are addicted to pain pills or not, you, you still have to, you have like a duty.

And even though they are addicted, they don't deserve to be in pain.

True, that's, that's a good point. And then the, the, the thing about the counselor is we're not allowed to tell someone what they can and can't take. Medication wise. It's like out of our jurisdiction. Like, it's a big no, no. So if someone called me up and said that I would talk them through it, I would say, are you concerned about it? What's your plan?

What are some options?

How will you know? I was sort of like talking to it, but, but I wouldn't tell them, like, oh, you can't take that. I probably would want to tell them, don't take that. But I wouldn't because it's out of my jurisdiction. So I just wanted to give you some behind the scenes on maybe why that happened. Although I totally get why you're frustrated.

And it's definitely the fact that he's in a giddy mood and carrying them around his pocket is not good.

It's triggering and to him, right.

So I would say, hey, honey, like, is there any way, like you're on day two of the Viking. Is there any way we could, like, come up with a taper plan and maybe I hold them to help you out, like, try to act like you're on his team. I don't know he's going to give him up at this point. But that would have been if we'd gotten ahead of it. And he could have said to the therapist, hey, I'm having my wisdom too, that I'm going to get some Vico. And they could have built a plan that included you for management and an early get off and move on to Advil plan.

But at least he did call and tell the therapist, which was, I thought was a good sign.

That's true. I mean, he might be approachable if you say, hey, I'd like to step in and help you manage this so that this doesn't become a problem because you've done such a great job heretofore.

You could even. You may have already pass this marker says. But you could even say, hey, what did the therapist say about it? Is there anything I need to do? Like, is it good you got it, or am I supposed to, like, do anything? Like, you could kind of open it that way.

As far as the scratch off tickets. I mean, you've already said something to him once, to me. I think you're gonna have to let it roll and let it become a problem. I hear your frustration, your fear, your terror, and you're not wrong in all those feelings because it's. It's scary and dicey, and I think you're probably in for a little bit of a bumpy road. But you've said it once, so he's gonna have to learn the hard way through tacit wisdom, that he can't do that.

And the financial piece, too. I think being able to kind of insulate yourself financially in any way that you need to or that you can, you know, you've been there before.

So.

What do you mean by that? I know what you mean, but. Do you want to elaborate?

Yeah. How do you do that?

How do you insulate yourself to insulate yourself financially?

There's. That's a whole.

I get that question a lot. We all get that question a lot. It's a hard one to answer, but I would say anything that you can set aside. Set aside anything that you can make it difficult to get to. Make it difficult to get to. Because if it's in the random checking or the joint checking account and there's a debit card attached, all you have to roll up to is the atm. You know, it's super easy, but if you can move some of it.

What if there was a separate checking account for the bills or something like that?

Right? Or there's lots of.

Protect yourself financially, I think is what she means by insulate.

That's exactly what I mean.

And that's. That's called the boundary where you're protecting you and you're letting him figure out the other. And I don't know if this will help you feel better or not, but I will say this. A lot of people, when they're in early recovery, will definitely go through the roof with other addictions like nicotine, sugar, caffeine. And it doesn't bother me one bit. I'm like, here's candy ball. Because they smoke. Seriously.

Since they are officers. Candy everywhere.

Yeah, some. I've literally had clients come in and set down, like, three monster energy drinks and drink them while they're Talking to me, I'm like, cool, dude. Like, because their dopamine is so low, they're just in survival. And I'm hoping that when you say scratch offs, I don't know, but I'm hoping it's just in that category. And honestly, I've never seen that really be problematic. As far as someone else's, like, main addiction recovery, I'm not saying that's healthy. I know that there's a. Can be a dependency there. But, like, I've not seen it cause.

Someone to relapse for gambling or for.

For, like, the other things like the nicotine, the caffeine.

Yeah.

Sugar.

Stuff like that.

But he has a gambling thing, so it could definitely be the.

Yeah.

Path to that.

Right. But I guess what I'm saying is he's sort of looking for any kind of. Yeah. Or whatever.

Maybe I have some butterfingers. See if you can deviate him over there.

I mean, it sounds to me that these are relapse warning signs coming on and how far it's going to go is unknown. So I think from the gambling piece, just protect what you can protect.

You're gonna have to account for the progress he's making, though. And then if he's gonna dig another hole, you just need to let him dig the other hole as long as you can protect yourself financially.

And the good news, he's in iop. He's going. He did call the therapist about the Vicodin. So if the scratchers become problematic, let's hope that he will say, hey, I'm not drinking and I'm off the Vicodin, but I am swinging by the 711 buying a Bolo scratch off tickets. What do I need to do about that? And let them figure that out.

Right. I've had a ton of clients be in counseling and Iop other programs with me. Be, like, trying to recover from alcohol or cocaine or whatever. And they'll come to session one day and they'll say, dude, I found that I am, like, spending money like crazy. Or they'll, like, tell it to me, and then we'll work on it. So they usually do start to notice themselves do it. And they will bring in a lot of time. So, yeah, I've had. I've had. That happens all the time.

It is a dopamine chase for sure. 100. If I give up online shopping, then I'm probably gonna, like, watch a lot more Netflix. So I don't give up online shopping. The economy.

Thank you.

I'm trying to keep America.

All right, let's take our question up here on chat from NK Oh, I forgot Bree's doing it. Oh, my bad. Bree, hands off steering wheel.

Oh, thank you, Bri. It's from NK.

What can I do to do some damage control? Because I feel like I've been watching all the hard work I did to make the relationship better go down the drain and I don't know if I have it in me to do it again. And is there a way I can bring up this concern about going on in. On going in on a mortgage with someone at this point in time who is addicted and not getting help even though he said he would? Kim, this sounds like a really good question.

Probably shouldn't answer this one.

I will, I will. Kim can just squeeze my thigh if I'm going the wrong way. Self friends over here do not go in a mortgage. Like you don't, don't, don't bring up your concern. Just have a boundary. You know what, at this point in time, I'm just not willing to do.

That unless you can pay for it yourself and you.

Then you're not going in on it.

That's a valid point. I stand corrected.

Agreed.

Yeah.

Yeah. I wouldn't go in on a bill with someone who's in active addiction yet.

No. 9.

Yeah.

And you can be nice when you set the boundary.

Yeah. Just say at this point in time, I just don't feel good about that. But I'm sure down the road and a little bit I may feel differently.

Right, right. And don't, don't say this because I kind of had a hint when I read that. Thank you. You might be thinking, well, if he would agree to get help. No, it's not. If you agree to get help because he could agree to get help, make two counselor appointments and then you're in a 30 year mortgage.

Yeah, right.

No, it's when you feel comfortable that things have been stable long enough to do that. But no, like, okay, I'll go to counseling.

No, that's bargaining. You never make a bargain. You never make a deal. You wait for sustainable change to be in clear view for you.

Right. Because there's already some fear in that message. And you put a 30,000 or 30 year mortgage on top of that, that fear is going to be set on fire.

Oh, yeah. And then you.

And then you're going to be really scared, resentful.

Right.

You're not gonna be able to stay out of the reaction.

Yeah.

Because now you have a money problem, a housing problem and a future problem. Right, Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So limerence question before any permanent damage. Any advice on how to my doc talk to my doctors. Considering daughter as a doctor didn't. Sorry daughter who's moving in with her boyfriend in a few weeks. They do not have jobs, insurance, etc. I also need help setting a boundary if she decides to do that or even to get a marriage license to appease the boyfriend's family. What are reasonable boundaries because she is still a dependent. I really appreciate your thoughts and some options, some damage control, some a little confused.

If the girl is going to move in and you don't think that's a good idea, I would just not pay for the rent or for those expenses and then don't say anything. Let her figure out they don't have jobs, insurance, etc and they can't afford it. Maybe they won't even get approved. How you move in anywhere without a job.

But I wouldn't pay the dependence part.

What is that?

I don't know what that means.

Are we.

If I'm. If I'm thinking of the situation. Right. And I think I am, this is the situation that the daughters in college or what they were both in college and so probably what she's thinking is, well, we were paying for her college dorm or rent. It's not saying this, but I'm thinking that Susan is thinking like do I still pay that half to them even though they're moving in? Even though I don't really agree with that.

I wouldn't.

Okay.

Just from a parenting standpoint that they've made a decision as adults. Like in Sink or swim.

Yeah.

Because to me that's different than college. Like you're in college. If she was living roommates and going to college, that'd be one thing. But she's playing house.

Yeah.

And I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying like if you're old enough to move out and move in.

With a partner and possibly get a.

Marriage, possibly get a marriage license, then the boundary is, is you wish them well. You be kind, you go, you buy them a house.

Yeah. Curtain. Take some salt and bread. Wish him well.

Right.

Don't pay it.

But you don't intervene and pay the bills. Because guess what happens to that limerence when reality of cleaning toilets and paying bills and everything else kicks in.

It goes out.

It gets real fast.

It's done.

Yeah.

And. And if she challenges you on this and gets mad, which my bet is when you follow our advice, if you do, she will, is you say, well sweetie, like this is A really adult thing. And that would be grossly over parenting me for me to pay for those bills. So, like, this is like, I'm accepting you're an adult and I'm totally here to love you and applaud you, but it would be over parenting on my part to pay for that. Like, throw yourself under the bus just a minute. So that she sort of loses her steam on the argument.

Yep. And I would say the same thing. Even if. Even if this was situation where you thought this guy was great, you thought they were perfect together. Not even about, like, being like, oh, I don't like this guy. You shouldn't be there. Like, if you're old enough to. To make that move, you are old enough to start being responsible for yourself. And that's the issue is here. Neither one of them is. They want to. They're not adulting.

Right.

Right.

No, it's just like my own daughter who's fabulous and I love her boyfriend. You know, they went to a really nice resort before a wedding. You know, it was on my American Express card, and I just said, hey. And she said, oh, I just venmoed you the back balance on that. Like, I wasn't going to pay for that. It doesn't matter that I don't. That I adore him and her. Just. That's their adulting decision. They need to pay for it.

Yep.

And feel good about it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Hopefully that helps. Do you have a video on the stages of addiction, Rose? We do. It's been a little while since I did that, so you may have to scroll back the best way because it's hard to search videos. You can go on my channel and put stages of addiction. It might come up if you don't see one you want. If you go to the main channel page, there's tabs at the top. One of them says videos and one of them says lives. And they'll put them from most recent to oldest. So you can just scroll through and they're all listed there and you can scroll back to find the one. But there. There are actually probably three at least on there. About that. Lec says, my husband has been going to work but not coming home for the past two nights, which isn't totally normal. We had a family vacation and it didn't go great. Turned into fights. And I told him if he didn't get help, then I may have to leave. He talked it through. You read it?

We talked it through and he agreed to get help. Over the last few nights, hasn't been coming Home. I don't call him or get mad at him when he calls. He has admitted having a problem, which he didn't admit to you. I'm sharing his first appointment. He knows he needs help, but he's not ready. What do I do? He's not calling.

Okay.

It was the last.

Okay, so you guys went on. Let me make sure I got it straight. They went on vacation. It wasn't good. It was arguments, and she said, look, like, you gotta get some help or we can't live together.

And now he's gone anywhere at night.

Right.

Which is not good.

No, but he's just gonna play the victim card because it didn't go well and you challenged him. I'd let him spin.

Okay, what was the question? Go. What was the. Did I miss? I want to make sure we.

Can you put that up one more time so we can.

Yeah, the second, I think it was.

Should I. Should I point this out?

I don't call him.

No, there's no question. What do I do?

What do I do? Okay, I think you're. So far, you're doing it. If he continues to not come home after work, then you're gonna have to, like, reassess what your boundary, just in general, is about being in a relationship with someone who doesn't come home. Because that's uncool.

It's totally uncool and not normal. So it's not like this is a pattern you've put up in the past. So I agree with Amber.

And this. This also supports when we talk about if you're going to leave a marriage or ask someone to leave, you're doing it because you really. Not because you want them to change. I mean, that would be great, but you're doing it because you just can't keep living like this. So the boundary, the. The expectation of the boundary, the expectation that the line you're holding is for you, not what they're going to do next.

Right.

So if you did this because your weight. You thinking that this is going to propel him into some kind of change, then that's one conversation. If it's you did this because you just really can't live like this anymore, then that's a different conversation.

And that's the only one to go with. Correct. B.

Because the only thing that happens on the addictive person's end when the spouse leaves is whether you ask them to leave and they leave or you leave is number one. Now they're staying in a place where there's no one else there. So Even if they want to get sober, it's going to be really hard because there's no one to distract you. There's no one to watch over you. And so you have to constantly fight against addiction.

So no accountability whatsoever.

Like, I'm working with a fellow right now who brought himself here, but who just totally lives alone. And he's trying really hard and he's talking about how hard it is because he lives alone. So. So there's that. And then you layer on the top of that that they're gonna be in total self pity and resentment. And so then they feel even, like, more justified. So I'm not saying don't leave or ask him to leave. I'm just saying, like, it doesn't make them better, right?

No. And if it's just been a few nights, I don't think you're probably at the point where you're like, I can't function like this anymore. So I think I would let it go until you feel that just visceral. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. I don't like this. Then you can have, like, more action right now. I'd just be like, okay, well, this is all like Donkey Kong.

Yeah.

So let it spin, as Campbell said, because it might be going back to that sailboat thing. It might be right around the time that the boat's going to shift one way or the other. This situation is going to shift one way or the other.

Yeah.

He's either going to come to you and say, hey, this is what I'm thinking about doing, or, I can't do this, or I want to come home, or he's just going to be gone more days at a time.

He's just proven to himself that he does have an alcohol problem. That's what's happening.

That's what's happening.

So you just let him as long as you can.

All right. When your spouse was the one you did everything with, no longer is interested in doing anything because their addiction. How do you stop being angry and resentful and be okay doing things alone?

This is a total camera question.

You're gonna be angry and resentful. I think you just have to accept that you're going to have normal emotional response to an abnormal situation. Again, it sort of goes back to the question we just talked about, is if it's for a little bit and you can be angry and simple, but do other things on your own, do them. If it goes on and on and you just realize, this is not how I want to spend my life then say, I don't want to spend my life like this, and I'm leaving.

If I'm friends.

Well, so the short term is, if we're going to let this sort of see if the boat will. The metaphor of the day is, will the boat turn? Is stop being angry, Zeul, and go do them on your own and enjoy them. Pick things that you really are looking forward to doing, and maybe pick things that you can only do alone. You know, find things that will bring you joy that and you get to do because you are alone. If not, like Amber said, find a friend. Do something like that. But if you're going to give this some space, I highly recommend that you find things that will allow you to not be angry and resentful. Like, you know, if my husband goes out of town for six weeks, I could be like, well, what am I gonna do for six weeks? But I have a list a mile long of things I can do because he's out of town. So sort of shift into, what do I get to do because he's not here. But that's not abnormal at all with addiction to lose interest in things that we normally find interesting.

Right.

And for the spouse to feel lonely and resentful because you didn't sign up for single life, and yet you're living very much a single life in a lot of ways.

Because he's married to his addiction. Right. Why does my. How do I get to read the reader every time? Why does my addicted husband never believe what I tell him? Regardless of what it is, he's always skeptical.

What is it you're trying to get him to believe, Kelly? Like.

Yeah.

Are you saying if you say, I don't know, some random science fact he doesn't believe you, or if it's.

He doesn't believe that roast beef is $6.99 a pound, or you were 10.

Minutes late because you got stuck behind a truck.

Okay. That's why I just said to my addicted loved one, I'm done. I don't feel like I can carry the heaviness.

No one is leaving or has left yet. We're just cohabitating. I told him that I know he loves me, and I love him.

Hold on, hold on. You just said. Kelly, you said, I told him I'm done, but we're still cohabitating. And I told him, no one's left yet but you. There's a mixed message there.

I told him once that the river was too high to cross our group. I think there's More after our group.

Maybe they're, like, hiking or something. And he was like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, literally. That's the way I read it. We're smart.

Okay. Okay. We're behind.

Literally was too high to cross. And he didn't believe you.

Okay.

I don't know if that's just addictive mentality of I'm gonna not. I'm gonna pick a little tiny fight every time I possibly can. Our community group said it was too high. I didn't believe me. Called a friend who said it was fine, and we got stuck.

I think that's probably. I don't think that's.

That could be just ignorance.

I think that's just either like a couple's thing or a personality thing or.

Just, I gotta be right on something.

A lot of times it's weird, but we don't trust the people closest to us because, like, sometimes when we get young people coming here, the parent could have told the kid a hundred times. And they come one time, and one of us say it, and then they go home, be like, oh, guess what Amber said. She said this. And then I was like. I said that many times. I mean, think about how often that happens.

And it also, like, I. I'm married. And if I was going into a hike with a group and I was already a little slightly bit irritated with my husband, and he said, oh, we can totally cross the thing. I'd be like, it's too high. So it could be. It could be that.

I'll tell you a funny story based on this.

You're not throwing me under the bus, are you?

This.

You'll like this.

So my husband's birthday's coming up, and I asked him earlier, you want to go somewhere special for your birthday to eat? And he picked this place that we'd never been for. It's called the Peddler. And it's like this, like, local steakhouse place. And so I was talking to Campbell and Brie yesterday about lunch. I said, have y' all been there? Do I need to make a reservation? And they were like, yeah, it's great. Blah, blah, blah.

So.

So I called, but they don't take reservations. So I go home, I'm telling my husband, Donnie, this. I'm like, hey, I try to call, but they don't take reservations. But we just show up. And he's like, maybe we should go somewhere else. I was like, no, Campbell and Bri have been. They said, it's great. And he said, well, what does Kim say about it? I Trust Kim's opinion. He was just being funny.

Oh, he was being funny. He better be being.

I said, she wasn't there. He said, well, I want to know what Kim says. So, Kim, would you like to wake up? I've never been. Okay, then I'll tell Kim is worthless again.

I'm not a huge steak person, and I think they're.

But he is.

So not only does my husband not take my opinion, doesn't take candles or breeze either.

So I hope it stinks. Hope you go and it's terrible.

He was just fan th. But, yeah.

It was just the tiny screen of something that made me say I was done. I also said I didn't want to divorce or separate, but I think I'm in the way of his partying life.

You might be.

Yeah. You are, for sure.

Part of what happens is, is there's a part of their brain that wants you to be done because you are holding the floodgate back on what they really want to be doing. I'm not saying this just to Kelly. I'm saying this to, like, spouses that are out there. Like, there's a big part that wants to be done, because not only does that give them free reign, but it gives them the emotional justification, even kids, to feel totally like.

When kids. Parents are like, you can't live anymore. They're like, great, I'm gonna go and use all I want.

Right? So it's like they. It's like they're trying to make you leave, but trying to make. It's like trying to make you break up but make you be the one to do it or something. There is definitely an element of that kind of thing going on. Yeah.

The next time, if you think it's too high to cross, let them go. Get stuck. And then you just sit there and read your book and eat your Butterfinger while they're stuck. Don't go. All right, Kelly. Question for Campbell. My daughter Victoria called last weekend to say she was doing very poor, poorly emotionally and needs help. I spoke to her therapist, who advised me to take her to the ER she voluntarily admitted herself to the psychiatric ward. To the best of my knowledge, drugs, alcohol were not involved in this particular incident. Is it okay to help her with rent this month? Yeah, I guess. If there's no reason that you can discern that she can't pay for her rent because she's spending her money elsewhere. Problematically, if she's mentally not well, we don't want to not pay her rent and. Or punish her for that. So based on the fact that the therapist said, take her to the E.R. i'm gonna say, take her to the E.R. and help her with her rent, then try to osmos. You know, going forward maybe a little bit. Is there more to the story? But for right now, I certainly wouldn't compound the problem with now she doesn't have anywhere to live or she's behind in the rent.

Right, Right. I mean, and it sounds like if you're saying, should I pay the rent? It sounds like probably she's been paying it.

It's. We've gone on and off. It's a kind of a multi addiction.

I got issue.

But based upon what I hear here, Kelly, I. I wouldn't worry about it. I would. I would pay it.

Baby says, Campbell knows me. He got health. He got a health scare. Prob. You read that?

Got a health scare. Probably related to drinking. Wouldn't be surprised if he still gets blackout drunk even today. He said alcohol is killing him and his relationship. I agreed. Any thoughts on things I can say? I need help with boundaries. I can set. Related to coming home drunk so badly. I think he might need medical help and messing up the home and boundary around. If he loses his job, he will just not live here and not find another one. So what I'm hearing is, is there a boundary you can hold and it's just how long you want to tolerate with them coming home drunk, messing up the house, and potentially not working. Did you hear a different question, you guys?

Well, I had a. I don't know if this answers the question, because I'm not. This isn't about boundaries. But when I. When I hear Campbell say that, I could be jumping to a conclusion here, but when he's saying, this addiction is killing me, it's killing our relationship. This isn't an issue of denial. You're waiting for him to figure it out. It sounds to me like somebody who's so far in, they can't stop, and it sounds like one of those situations where they might be waiting. I guess this does relate to a boundary for you to, like, push the issue. Like, there was a guy I saw forever, and he was already sober when he told me this, but he used to drink so badly, and he was telling me, he's like, I would literally be in the shower, shaking, drinking beer in the shower, and I'll be thinking to myself, like, when are they going to make me go to detox? But he was, like, so stuck. He couldn't make himself go. When you say he says that it's.

Brenda oh, the light bulb just came on.

Okay.

Yeah. The problem with you, Brenda, is in your lovely, smashing self is you're not good at and don't want to hold boundaries. So I think, you know, you're gonna just have to either continue to tolerate this. He is. Amber's correct. He does have moments of clarity. He just can't hold it. But I will agree with Amber in that my. One of my own sons told me that in the end, when it's just, I'm using because I have to. I'm, you know, standing in the shower drinking beers. I'm using because I have to stop. Is, when is this going to end? When is someone going to catch me? When is someone gonna arrest me? When is this going to end? And then when it does, there's a massive sense of relief. So you may have to get some big girl panties and pull them up and say, I love you dearly, but I'm done.

This might be a situation where I would literally say, like, I've called the treatment center. They have a bed. Would you like me to pack your stuff? And. And if he said, hell no, screw you or whatever, fine. But it may be a situation where he might just say, fine, but can I buy some beer on the way? And then you say, fine.

Yeah, absolutely.

It may be that if you. If you just. I know normally I don't recommend that, but that's when someone's in denial. You're backing up, letting them figure that out. But just the way I read that makes me think this person is. It sounds like a cry for help.

And it is, I think. And also, Brenda has literally been, like, so patient, so could teach the invisible energy.

Okay, so.

But. But part of that has fed the problem because he does. He doesn't really think you're going to do anything, so this is going to require a big yes. He refused to get any help, saying he'll lose his job and go to prison and her previous charges, and feels that that means he loses his career.

Okay.

So I think this is a session, to be honest, because I think you and I have some work to do on how to hold your side of it, because he. That's. That's an excuse for what I just said earlier. But what I said earlier is true. This is killing me. I can't stop.

Yeah, I think you. You might just have to play hardball a little bit right here. And. And so if you play hardball and he gives you that push right there, and then you back flip completely off. Like I would say, yeah, you might be right. That might be a risk. But if you don't go, here's what I think you're gonna lose. Think you're gonna die or you're gonna lose me or, you know, something worse.

He's gonna lose his job anyway because he's drinking. If you're drinking in the shower to function, then you're going to be hungover or drunk at work, so he's going to lose the job in a matter of time.

Yeah.

That reminds me of Cheryl's question in the beginning, too. When you talk about, like, hardballer, you're talking about kind of, like holding the line of, hey, this person knows. They're, like, not in denial anymore.

Kind of that technique to use in that.

That first question that we got to.

Yeah, there is a time and place to play hardball. I know we don't talk about that part a lot, and we don't. They don't talk about in craft, if you've been doing the craft method and you've gotten yourself out of the bad guy roll, and you know that they see it and they're not blaming you anymore, there does come a point where you can hold the line, but you have to mean it.

Yeah.

You have to mean it, and you have to be willing to hold the.

Line, and you have to be appropriate. Appropriate because.

And even if. If. If their connection to that is zero, there does come a point, craft method or not, where you just are done. Like, you can't live like this anymore. And that's okay. You say it nicely. Yeah, I'm no longer functioning in this domain.

Michelle says, what is the lawyer technique?

That's an Amber question. You love that. I mean, I love it, but you use the term.

It's not a real thing. It's just a. It's the way I made up to say how we do counseling here. When people come into our office, what happens usually is the family member gets their own counselor, usually Campbell or Kim, and the addicted loved one gets their own counselor, usually me. But swaps around sometimes. But each person gets their advocate. And a lot of what happens in our offices behind the scenes, we bargain it out. I'll be like, hey, can you quit looking at our journal? And be like, hey, can you stop? All right, I can work that out. You know, it's like mediation.

You should see our lunch table. Sometimes we need to go to court.

Yeah.

We're so wired in defending our side of the family system.

And then Bri gets in there with her gavel, says, that's a Sick girl. But we, we. And that's. And that works because sometimes, just like we were talking about earlier, the interests aren't always aligned. And you need somebody to look out for you and they need somebody to look out for them. But we're always trying to. We're not pulling families apart. We're trying really hard to push families back together. But each side feels like they have an advocate.

Yeah, yeah, lawyer.

That's why I call it lawyering. It's not like a. It's just a made up thing.

All right. Michelle. My son is homeless. 23, used DXM cough meds. He is not interested in help. I've set the boundary of not coming home as it would make it chaos here. I'm wondering if maybe home would be a better place.

No.

Nope.

No.

He's homeless. He has no interest in help. The chaos will come in your house and you will find yourself losing yourself incredibly quickly. And whatever peace and calm and harmony is in the home will sail up to the chimney like a fire.

And anyone else that lives in the.

House their peaceful though it won't save him, but it will drown the rest of the people in the house. You included. Even if he had went to treatment and he was sober for three weeks and you were asking us this question, we would still, still tell you, don't rewind. You can help. You can say, well, I'll help you get into sober living. I'm not saying, we're not saying don't love him, don't talk to him. We're just saying don't let him live in your house. It doesn't work.

That's enabling the disease.

Yeah, we're not, we're not like hard line on many things. That's the one thing that it's like never works. Yeah.

100. All right, Crystal. My partner has been sober and I'm in treatment for the past six weeks. No, my partner hasn't. Sober and in treatment. I think for the last six weeks. He did a 21 day program and is now sober living, doing IOP and therapy.

Great.

Now that things have calmed down, I'm dealing with lots of feelings about the things that happened during his addiction. Taking off for weeks, missing his daughter's birth, things like that. I'm in therapy and now knows that. No, now is not the time. But how do I know when the right time to talk about this stuff is? I feel like I need to have a conversation before he comes home and we can move forward. I think you're going to have to wait till he works through those steps and gets to step nine which is amends and see if he'll bring it up himself. I feel like you're going to be showing. You're going to be lighting the shame fire again too soon if you bring it up. He's in early recovery. He's in very early recovery. He doesn't have the tools for that. There's plenty of time to do it, but I don't think now's the time to do it.

I'm not even sure how helpful it is to do period. I think it's. It's plenty okay to ask for what you need. Hey, can we have this agreement? You know, I. This would really help me that goes over. Better for you to ask for what you need moving forward than for you to say rehash, rehash all the old stuff. Because there's nothing he's going to say that's going to make that any different. He's going to have to prove himself because he could say whatever. He's probably already said whatever a million times.

So.

So it's nothing. But you watching him do different, that's going to heal that. Yeah, I understand the want to do it, but it just rarely helps.

But I also think it's. I think it's more of a you healing process that you probably need to look at letting that go and forgiving and moving forward and can you more than bringing it to him as far as. I mean it is a couple issue in the fact that you have to be able to move forward, forward and you have to know that you can trust him. But to me that sounds more like a crystal to crystal issue than a crystal to partner.

I think that's a really good point and I think some of it is just understanding that neuro what's going on in his brain because that addiction made him miss his child's birth. He himself, John, whatever his name is, the addiction was running the show at that point. And. And the addiction is not going to apologize. And I think Amber's probably right and that John probably already grossly sorry about that.

Right, right.

Because usually I think when this happens it's an acknowledge. You want the person to acknowledge what they did and how hurtful it was. And I totally understand that. But there's no better acknowledgment than him going away to long term treatment and then sober living. That's a. That's a big acknowledgment if you ask me.

And I've talked about this before, whether our videos are Here, I don't know. But. But there are a million ways to make amends. And it doesn't need always mean a conversation and words. It can be sustainable sobriety. It could be acts of service. It could be all kinds of things. So just put your need in a drawer and close it and just watch.

Think about what actions going forward would help you heal and feel better and ask for those actions from him. Versus saying I want to explain rest my feelings. Yeah. I'm curious about what your opinion on psychedelic drugs with a therapist for step of recovery. That's like a popular new thing. And we don't. I mean, I shouldn't say we, but I don't have a strong feeling about it. Super duper one way or the other. Unless the addiction was to something that involves psychedelic stuff. Then I would def. Then I would probably have a strong opinion about it.

But I mean, no, I've only dealt with it twice and neither time was it successful. So I don't have an opinion except just. I haven't seen it work, but I've only seen it.

I have heard a few times we've had couples go do this and I have on a few occasions heard like, for one person in the couple, it was helpful and other person, it was like a bad trip. Almost like it was.

I've had it with one couple and it was.

I wouldn't.

It wasn't a bad experience, but I don't think it was a monumental, changing, like, forward movement thing either.

I think you can have like these big epiphanies and these big, like, moments of clarity, but they don't always translate to change and different in life. It does feel like that in the moment when you're having that moment.

But.

Yeah, but we really don't have enough experience with it to. To weigh in like, so I've only seen.

Yeah, I'm not doing a video on this.

Yeah, we don't have enough experience.

I might black myself out during this part.

Tiffany, how do I move out of resentment to a place of compassion with my alcoholic husband struggling with so much resentment?

That's a really hard one.

We. I. I think what you got to ask yourself is who do I want to be? Not what does he deserve. Not. Not what is fair. But. But this is about you deciding, do you want to be this person? Do you want to carry this in your heart? And it may be that if you're in a situation where it keeps happening over and over and over, that you have to distance yourself in order to not be that person. So I feel like we need a little bit more. Like, is this something ongoing? Is this something from the past? What is it?

Right. It makes me think of, like, the forgiveness of. Talked about last week or last month.

I just know, as a parent of this is. You could stay in resentment and be pissed off about it and why me? And this sucks and I miss so much. Or you can move forward and really cherish what you have and where you're going and take your attention off that person more towards yourself while you appreciate coming as a. As a person too. But again, we don't have the information. But I fully agree. Resentment just eats up our space in our heart with blackness. And our heart is only this big. So if you fill it all with blackness, then you have a black heart. So I don't. I try to get rid of resentment. Like every other night, I would go with nightly. I like a little bit of it, but then I let it go. Like, I'm already over the Donnie thing.

That's good.

Okay. I separated from the guy I was dating who had a functional drinking problem about two weeks ago. He said he was starting therapy. He wants to talk again this week. Should I talk to him?

He said he was starting.

Yeah, you could talk to him.

Talk to him, but don't believe it until you see you can sustainable.

Talk to him. Do you let him move into your house and think everything's better? No. But yeah, talk to him on the phone. And if that goes well and he does seem different and sincere, have lunch with him.

If.

If that feels safe enough. If he's.

If he's starting therapy and it's going to work, you're going to hear, see, feel a tangible change. If he's just saying, I'm starting therapy and you don't see any difference or in his. What he's talking about or how he's acting, then you'll know that that was just crap. Yeah.

I would also kind of look at why did you separate from him? And kind of look and see what's different on that. Because he separated more than just because he was a functional alcoholic. Like, I mean, that maybe he was missing things that were important. Maybe he was behaving in a way that you don't want to behave.

There's.

I mean, that's a. That's a.

What was problematic about his alcohol, which.

Is always the big question, which is the behavior. Right.

And I'd be looking at that. I'd also be looking at your own history, because there's something going on that you're Trying to avoid. And I would look deeper at that because maybe you don't have the ability to just keep it light like you were talking about. And if you don't have the ability to keep it light, then you probably do need to stay. Stay away. Because if he's a functional alcoholic, he's probably just dipping his toe in that lake and that lake is not a good lake for you to be in.

And. And the one last thought I had as soon as I said, yeah, it's fun to talk to him. If he's got a history of being mean and abusive and nasty, that's different. Right. So that's different.

But also looking at your history and what's good for you.

Yep. All right. How do I address the self pity and resentment I feel my daughter falls into a lot. It is the result of her. Is it the result of her addiction?

And does this was or does this was there before? Maybe is. Was this there before? She's 25 ways of addiction. Prescribed drugs as well as recreational, which is less and less recreational. Two overdoses of me. Yeah.

Yes. The resentment is symptomatic of the addiction. It's resentment. And self pity is literally how I measure how addicted someone is. Like, I don't even ask them how much they do because they're not good to me. I literally listen, I measure how much resentment and self pity is happening.

So yeah, because what I look for when people come tell me their child is in recovery is how humble and how willing, which are the opposite of that. And if I don't hear humility willing, those parents are getting snowballed. So those are the sort of the two sides of the. Those are 180 degrees.

Those are the outputs of addiction. It's almost like taking a urinary drug screen. Those are the metabolites. So if that is present like that, that's good. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. All right. We have two minutes.

My son is finally sober. Almost eight months now. After treatment, he is serving five months jail sentence. He literally lost everything. Family, home, car, license. How much should I help in the future? I know this situation is ending. I've never been talking. The answer here is how nice he is to you. Because part of the situation with Cindy, she's not saying it's. He's been. I think some of it might be sort of delusional, but he's been like paranoid against her and seen her as the bad guy. Like more than just like the normal, like, like sort of psychotic or whatever. If he's treating you nicely and he's helping himself. Totally do it. But if he is, like being mean or abusive or really demanding to you, that's different. I think so. I would base it not only is how he's doing his own recovery, but also how he is interacting with you.

I agree with that. And if you. If he is nice and you do help him, I would do it for a finite amount of time. Do not sign a lease. Do not make a car payment. Don't just say, hey, I'm willing to help you. Here's blank dollars to help you get launched and tag it over to him to see if this is sustainable.

I agree. Yeah. Because if you just say, hey, I'll help you while you get on your feet, that's open ended. So. I really like what you said. Campbell is like, set a line. I'll help you for two months. I'll help you with this one thing or whatever.

Like, I'm willing to kick in $2,000, whatever.

Because then you don't have to go back and have another arc or conversation about I'm not helping anymore or you're.

Not so far in that you can't have that conversation. And you're on every car payment and every lease, and then you are getting resentful. If this were to go backward.

Right?

Yeah. We're out of time.

All right. We're out of time. Brie's gonna come out here and ring our bell, all right? That's what she does when I'm out of town. She rings the bell.

She's probably gonna ring it anytime.

Yeah, she had one in there.

She would. All right, guys, thanks a bunch. Great to not see you. Great to hear your questions.

Feels like a season.

We'll see you next month.

All right, See you next time. Bye, guys.

Bye.