Living with Addiction in the Family

Today we're talking about your most dreaded subject of all. Relapse. What to do if your loved one relapses, how to respond and how not to respond. And we're super lucky to have our parent coach with us today. Scott. Hey, Scott, can you introduce yourself a little bit?

Hey, Amber. Yeah, I'm Scott Nunnery. I'm glad to be with you guys today. I'm a parent of two boys that have been struggling with addiction for five, six, seven years. Both of them are actually sober at the moment. One about two and a half years, and one is sober just recently for nine months.

All right, and so you're going to talk to us about relapse. And I think when we were sort of putting this together, you were talking about how you done all the wrong things in the past, Is that right?

Well, probably about all of them, yeah. But between the two boys and about seven or eight years of it, certainly we've had our share of relapses and certainly especially early on, I seem to have made about every mistake that you might can think of when they go through relapses. So, yeah, I'd like to share a little bit of that today and share that with other families and hopefully they don't make the same mistakes as I did.

All right, give us confession and make us feel better. We'll feel better about ourselves.

Scott, confession number one. The first time Zach relapsed, I had sent him to a 30 day program and, you know, thinking that they were going to fix him in those 30 days. So when he gets home, probably stayed sober. I think I may even be wrong on this, but I think he stayed sober for about eight weeks and then he relapsed. And I found out that he relapsed and he convinced me pretty easily that he wasn't an addict, that he had gone to that 30 day program. And what he realized in those 30 days and over the eight weeks that he had been home was that he just couldn't smoke marijuana, that as long as he drank, he was fine. And so I bought into it and started back drinking with him. And I thought that as long as I could control it and keep him at home and we just had a few beers on the deck on the weekends, that it was fine. And certainly that lasted. I don't know that that might have went okay for about a month or two and then certainly went downhill pretty quick. But just, I think the first is just I was in denial.

Right. I don't think you're the only parent or family member of any sort out there that's done that. Right. I feel like families have just as hard a time coming to terms with the reality that it is addiction and what that really means. Families have just as hard a time with that as the person. We always think, like the person's in denial, but families have to get there too. You know, it's like, you know, are they an addict? If so, what does that really mean? Does it mean they're addicted to everything? You know, it's a lot to take in.

Well, you know, probably like other families, but we had friends that would say, well, do you really think he's an addict? You know, do you really think he needs to go, you know, to go away to a rehab and things like that? So, yeah, you get a lot of outside pressure and then obviously you don't want to admit it. You hope it's going to be okay. And so you kind of put your head in the sand for a while and I don't know, it probably, I guess after the first time he relapsed, it took another year before it to get really bad that we had to put them into an inpatient treatment.

Okay, and so what do you think is maybe your number one thing that you want families to know about either a do or a don't when it comes to the idea of relapse?

Well, I think the number one thing is, you know, in a relapse is your first initial reaction, I think is to freak out and to shame them. At least that's what I did. The second time that he relapsed, it was he had been in an in treatment facility for about three months out of a six months program and thought he was doing great in that first three months. And you, you start to kind of start to feel better because you, oh, you think he's doing so well. And then they call and say, hey, he's been kicked out for a week because he relapsed. And I, I just kind of lost it and I shamed him. And, you know, I can't believe you've done this. We've invested this money again. And, and I just went and shamed the hell out of him thinking, you know, that that was gonna shake him out of it, I guess. And, but, you know, it was kind of a selfish reaction, I guess, in a way, because I was just so devastated and I just couldn't believe he had done this to us and to himself. Kind of like you think he ruined everything, which, you know, you learn later that he didn't Right.

But as a family member, it does feel that way because you, you know, you're scared to death that things are going to go back to the way they were, which was horrible. Right. You know, it's like the fighting and the arguing and the fear and just the chaos. It's just a nightmare. Not only that, but in your situation, which is the same as a lot of people's situations, you've already invested a lot of money in treatment, like, a lot of money and time and energy, and you're like, are you kidding me? So there is the. I do think that as a family member, you're entitled to have your own feelings about it. Right, Right. They're valid, rational feelings. But it's probably not so helpful to respond that way.

Well, it's certainly not helpful to respond to them that way. But you're right, you know, that that's why you need a therapist. Possib. Vent to the therapist. That's why you need a friend. You can vent that to a friend, but you certainly don't need to vent that to the. To the loved one that's the addict, because they, you know, what you come to learn is they have more shame than they'll ever be able to deal with anyway. So you piling on certainly doesn't help because they get to a point where as soon as you pile on, it's almost like, you know, screw it. I've screwed up everything. I'll just go drink more and use more. And it gives them almost justification.

Right, Exactly. Or they, you know, just puts them back in that mindset that you're the bad guy, and then they start avoiding you and lying and hiding, and now the whole system's back in that toxic dynamic. Yeah, exactly. So. So the idea of coming at them with shame. I can't believe you did this. You know, piling on, that doesn't work. No. What's your second one?

Well, the second one, after a relapse of Cameron one time, I, you know, I just got really angry, and not only angry at him, kind of angry at the world, and just. Was. Just became miserable myself. But, you know, certainly showed that anger. And, you know, again, that. That puts up that wall between you and them. It certainly doesn't make them want to come around. There's. There's nothing really helpful that comes from that other than, you know, you might feel better for a minute by, you know, spewing whatever cuss words and yelling and screaming and all that that you want to do, but it just doesn't help. But, you know, certainly went through the anger part and after a while realized that did nothing to help the situation.

I mean, I would have to imagine, you know, Cameron was the second round. Right. So, yeah, you have one son, you went through it, and then there's the second son. And by that time, you gotta be mad. You gotta be like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, why is my life, I mean, this is like literally the past 10 years of your whole life is like, completely controlled by this.

Well, I don't know how many times Amy and I, you know, would lay in bed at night and just say, how in the heck did, you know, did we get the double whammy of both of our boys being addicts? And. Yeah, so, yeah, you asked that a million times.

Yeah, I think it's some valid anger going on there. I could definitely see it. Yeah. All right. And then I think you had a third thing that you want to encourage people not to do. And just so those of you that are watching, we're going to talk about some things to do. But as always, I think what not to do is usually more important than what to do, believe it or not. Because what you don't want to do is make it worse. And these, these are the things that make it worse.

Yeah, I think the third thing, you know, certainly you don't want to shame them. You know, you don't want to show the anger. And then the third thing is, you know, you don't all, all of a sudden want to know it all and know exactly what plan they need to fix it. And I certainly fell into that category more than once to where when they did relapse, you know, I became the smartest guy in the world and I knew exactly what was going to fix it. And I, you know, basically said that's, that's the only way. And this is what we're going to do. And that doesn't work either.

So we're getting that, like, traffic director kind of role, you know, this, that call your sponsor, pick up your white chip, whatever it is you think they need to do.

Well, you know, it was interesting because, you know, the rehab, the type of rehab that Zach had went to by the time Cameron had relapsed a couple of times, Zach had already shown, had showed some success with, with, with this type of rehab with, you know, all about connection and wilderness and activity and that kind of thing. And so I told Cam that's exactly what he had to go to in a six to a nine month program. And he just, you know, that Wasn't what he wanted and didn't want to do it and wasn't gonna do it. But I was demanding that that's how it had to be.

Right. Because you saw it worked for the first son. So it's got that. That must be the magic bullet.

That's the magic bullet, yeah, exactly.

And I think about those two boys, both of which I've had some interaction with. They're completely different. Yeah, completely different.

They are. You know, and what you do learn after being in this for a while is that every, every, every person is different and their journeys are certainly different. And they're going to have these different journeys and trying to force it to be one journey just because you had a little success that way, it just doesn't. It's not a one size fits all for sure.

It's really not. You're right. So those of you that are watching, we are going to take some questions and comments at the end, and we have a couple already up here. Hey, Amy. Hey, Saska. So put those questions in the chat and then I'm sure we'll get back to it and ask Scott to answer some of your questions or give you some feedback if you want that. So, Scott, you've told us what not to do, right? You've confessed some of the things that you've done in the past. We'll see if anybody else is brave enough to confess. They've done those things, too. I'm counselor, and I've done those things. I know you've done it. I've done it in session.

Both.

All of it. I've directed, I've shamed, I've been angry. And I'm the professional. It's okay to admit it.

Total transparency. Yes.

Right. You're human, right? Yeah. Yeah. So tell us. Tell us what we can do. You're always telling us what we can't do. What can we do, Scott?

Well, you know, I think after making so many mistakes, I know the. The time that Zach's. The big relapse that he had where he overdosed and, you know, almost died and certainly thought. Thought he had died at one point, but the next day, just seeing him so defeated and, you know, in a detox, still half out of it, but just defeated to the point of, you know, just crying, saying, I don't want to die. Once you kind of see that, and then I think it finally dawns, you as a parent, it dawns on you that they don't want this either. And, you know, they certainly don't want to be in that position. And then at that point, I just came to the realization that I didn't have the answers anymore and, you know, just kind of giving up control of saying, hey, I can't fix it. I can't control it. All I can do is love you, and all I can do is hope and encourage and, you know, try to help in whatever manner. You see that I've got a role in helping and just try to be a supportive part of it, but no longer trying to control it and fix it.

And I think a teammate, like, I'm on your side, like, I'm literally on your team. I know we say, hey, I'm on your team, but it doesn't feel like that a lot of times.

Yep.

But literally walking side by side with them. Yeah.

And I think Campbell, you know, it talks about being the cheerleader. Right. Is that, you know, quit being the coach, be the cheerleader. And I think. I think at that point, I did become a cheerleader, and I just, you know, I felt. I just felt like I needed to step back and quit trying to have the answers. And, you know, it started working. And realized at point, only he was going to fix this. Only he could figure out how to get out of this relapse and get back to being sober. And, you know, by telling him, I think at that point that, hey, we love you, don't have the answers. And then, you know, there's a lot of things you can do with encouraging, you know, you and I talked about a little bit earlier is that, you know, if they've had a year sober and they go off on and have a relapse, that don't mean that year was wasted. They certainly can get right back up on the horse, on that sober horse and get back to being sober again. And, you know, they might have had a week where they were using, but that 365 days isn't ruined. They can start adding back to that and can certainly get back and work in a good program. But.

And that's such a good thing to say to them, too, Scott, because in their mind, it's like, I've screwed it up. Now everyone's mad at me. I've ruined all of my clean time. I'm back to zero. And that's one of those damage control things that I try to very quickly head off at the pass because that doesn't lead anywhere good.

Yeah. So I use those. Some of those exact words. Is that. So he had a, you know, had a bad relapse, then. Then he was sober. Probably for about a year and a half, and then he went off and had a. I don't know. I don't know exactly the time period, but I think about a week of using Kratom and, you know, getting. Getting Kratom at a convenience store. And that time during his relapse, his roommates actually confronted him. I basically had no part in all of this. And they basically said, hey, dude, if you want to live in our sober house, you got to quit. You got to quit using. You got to come clean and tell us what's going on. And he did. And at that point, I was just saying, hey, you know, you've been sober before, and you know what to do. You know, I didn't pay for another rehab. I didn't. He didn't go anywhere. He stayed in that house with those guys, started back going to his meetings, got a new. A different sponsor, and just went right back to working a program.

Right. And he knew what to do. I mean, he'd been in rehab a few times. He had a whole degree in recovery, and he just need to put it in action.

Yes, Matt. Master's degree, doctor's degree. I'm not sure what, but a long time for real.

And so I really like what you said just a second ago, Scott, about when you were sort of in the hospital in that really dark time, and. And it dawned on you that, you know, they're not happy either, and they don't like this. And I think that's probably one thing that I do know from working with people with addictions is I know a lot of times they have a lot of bravado, and they're manipulative and they're in your face, and they won't admit to you that they have a problem, and they'll tell you you're crazy most of the time. Not all of the time, but most all of the time. If you can get past that layer of defense mechanism, every one of them don't want to live the way they're living. Every one of them are miserable. And if you can build the relationship with them, there's some things you can do to access that part of them. But if you come at them real directly, then they just get really caught up in guarding that little vulnerable piece inside of them. And that's a lot of what we teach inside the invisible intervention or, like our motivational enhancement courses. Like, how do I find that? Because it's in there in 99% of all of them. Yeah. You know, I usually say there's, like, deny to other people, you have a problem, and then there's denial to yourself, you have problem. Right.

That's right. Well, you know, that's so true. And, you know, it may not seem like a lot to some parents, but I think, again, just some simple language of differences, of how you talk to them and respond when they do relapse. Zach was so you. You know, he had enough relapses to where he kind of knew how I normally reacted. And most of the time I reacted in a way of knowing what he needed to do and how he needed to fix it. And. And when I came out of language of not being the one that knew what to do and ask him how I could support him in, you know, coming out of the relapse, I think it was it. He noticed it, and I think it made a difference.

Right. Because they don't have to spend a lot of time with their defensiveness up, which means they can let that guard down, which means they can use their brain power toward fixing the problem instead of guarding against you.

That's right.

Right. A lot of it's just like biology. Right. And so, yeah, you got to get that brain to think. So.

Yeah. Not. Not getting back in that whole cycle of that whole chaotic family, getting back on the roller coaster and getting back in the whole thing again, and. Because that feeds it and, you know, you certainly don't want to do that, but I think. I think some. Just some minor tweaks in the way you approach them with the language makes a big difference.

Yeah. If you can get to that inside part. Like I said, I've seen people with substance abuse problems for a long time now, and almost all of them underneath, it really, really wanted to stop.

Yep.

Right. And I knew it even in the early stages and. And they would talk about it. That doesn't mean they are able to do that immediately, but it's in there, and the closer you can get to it, the faster you can make that. You can sort of harvest it out of them almost.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I think the other thing I wanted to share with parents, too, Amber, is just the encouragement of just not having that dreaded fear of a relapse. Because we all, as parents, if our loved one has any sober time, especially in the early, you know, a year or less especially, it seems to always be in the back of your mind is, are they going to relapse? What am I going to do if they relapse? You know, and just that fear that constantly seems to be there, you know, there's different Thoughts I think out there, if you read people have different opinions, but I think some people say, oh well, relapse is just almost inevitable as kind of part of their journey. You know, there's certainly a lot of people that have gone through sobriety and didn't never relapsed. You know, one of the, one of Zach's mentors got sober at 17 and he's 40 some odd years old and never relapsed a day. So I think it could be a part of the journey, but it doesn't have to be. So, you know, you don't have to be sitting there as a parent saying, well, when is it going to happen? Oh, is it going to be next month? Is it going to be at his six month period? It may never happen. And so, you know, and if it does happen, you know, you got the tools to deal with it. Things that we're talking about today, knowing how to respond, not how not to respond, and make some mistakes that we've already made. People that are before you. So certainly I just think to encourage that if it does happen, you'll deal with it, you'll have a plan to deal with it. But you don't just have to be so scared of it.

Right. If families just, I call it hold your steady. Right. Keep doing what you've been doing. Do not change course. They'll usually get back on track a lot faster. If you don't get back on with them, it goes faster usually, always.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, don't feed it for sure.

I'm gonna take some questions up here, Scott. Let's see here some comments. Saska says, my son, 18, has started smoking marijuana and I'm worried he'll struggle with addiction. His dad is a high functioning alcoholic. I'm being really good about not reacting. How do I handle it? That's, that's a really great question. And you're off to a great start with the non reaction. Not that you want to ignore it or just pretend it's okay, but not, you know, getting all freaked out. What's your advice on that, Scott?

You know, certainly that's a tough one. You know, there's obviously a lot of kids out there smoking marijuana that are, you know, might be straight A student, they might be successful in sports and you know, they actually might be handling it or appear to be handling it. You know, I think what I've always heard and what I saw in my own boys, certainly, you know, they weren't addicts from day one. They certainly started out smoking marijuana. They were Having fun with it. And, you know, it was, you might say it was kind of a natural thing that kids do. What I think the warning signs are is when it starts to get out of control, when it starts to be no fun for them when they're doing it, I think then you start to. If it starts to ruin relationships, if they start putting the substance above relationships, then you can really start to be aware that it looks like it could be a problem.

Yeah. So one thing you're saying is just kind of your own mind have a. Almost like a little gauge on where we're at, you know. And, you know, I think. And I've actually have a short series, like a three part series on how to talk to your kid about marijuana somewhere on the channel. But one of the things parents want to do a lot is they want to go in with the. I guess it depends on what state, but we're in South Carolina. In South Carolina, it's. Well, it's illegal. Right. Or it's addict. You know, they want to come in like that, and that's really almost like the worst way to come in at it. Because they're just gonna get. I call it their little PowerPoint with their laser pointer about how marijuana is, whatever that. Oh, my gosh, I've heard it so many times. So you want to try to avoid hitting that button. And I usually say. I usually say, oh, yeah, most people smoke marijuana, have no problem at all. Totally. Right. Some people, man, that stuff becomes their life. And then, so I just talk to them sort of casually about it and help them see how is it affecting their life. Not whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, whether it should be legal or not legal. Stay out of that territory, because that's just a. That's just a road. You're going to lose that argument.

I lost so many debates and debating my two boys on marijuana. Yeah. So you don't want to get into that. I remember a funny story. I remember when Zach came to see you for the first time. You said he was one of the only clients that came in and they normally deny it. And you asked him, did he have a marijuana problem? He's like, heck, yeah.

About fell out my seat. And I said, well, you do. And he said, yeah. And I said, well, how do you know? And he says, amber, when you're pun stuff or stealing stuff for marijuana, you got a problem? I said, all right, then I'll go with that. It was shocking.

Exactly. But no, I think she has, you know, I think right now she has a good, good view on it and, you know, I think. But it's certainly something to obviously watch and just see how it progresses.

Yeah. And if you can keep it where you can have some conversations with them, it's a hard, you know, it's a hard line to walk because you don't want to be sending the message that you're okay with it.

Yeah.

But you also don't want to send the message that you can't have a conversation about it either. So it's tough. Yeah. Let's see. Amy says, I'm dying to ask my son if he's going to meetings, but I've resisted because I don't want to push him away. Oh, that's so classic. Right? You go to meetings. Did you talk in your meeting? Did you. Correspondence actor, you know, all that.

When Zach, when he came back from the 30 day program, you know, I would, I asked him all the time about, oh, have you got any meetings planned this week? Do you need me to drive you to the meeting? Certainly did those things. But, you know, I think if you ask him that, one or two things, either it's going to force them to lie or, you know, they're going to tell you what you want to hear or basically they're, you know, they're going to tell you, get out of my business. You know, it's almost a no win situation. So it'll be pretty evident whether they work in a program or not. And, you know, I think just you'll be able to know if they're going to meetings and work in a program if they're not. And maybe they're not and they're actually okay. Not everybody has to go to meetings.

Right.

Certainly, again, it's talking about everybody's journey is different. You know, that's right. For some recovery programs, you may see somebody going seven days a week. For another, they may go once a month and actually both of them may be doing fine.

Right. I think, I think families are told so often that that is like the only way anyone ever stays sober. It's the only thing they know to grasp onto or even ask. Right. Or go to the meeting because like, literally that's the only thing that they know that could possibly help. We had this young guy in our group last night and he had relapsed. We were processing his relapse, talking about it, and he said, he said, I guess I just need to go to more meetings. And I involuntarily just started busting out laughing. And then the group was Laughing. I was like, oh, my God, y' all can fire me. I'm like, I'm laughing. They're like, why are you laughing? Because I knew it was like, the biggest B sense, because I know that they're trained to say, I sneak on my meeting Common sponsor. And I was like, really? You know, and it was just funny because the whole group was laughing, and I'm like, oh, my God, look at me. I'm just. Somebody said they would go to a meeting. I'm over here laughing at them because we just train them to check that box to say that thing, right? Yeah.

If they're just going to check. I know, obviously, over the seven years that Zach's fault this and. And the. The journey that he's been on, there was a time period where the only reason he would go to a meeting is to try to pick up a girl. And so, you know, you can ask them, are they going to a meeting? And they can say, yes. And. And it is true they did go to the meeting, but they certainly were only going for some alternative reason. It wasn't about, what can I do to improve my sobriety.

Right.

It was just, you know, if you're. If they're just going to pick up a chick, that's. It really doesn't matter if they go or not.

Right. And I say all the time, like, you can force compliance, but you can't force recovery. A lot of my alcoholics will tell me all the time. They're like, oh, yeah, drove to the meeting, sat in my car because I knew, like, my spouse was like, watching me on the Find My Friends app and drink in the car, think, you know, like, I'm not. This is not me being against meetings. I'm not against meetings at all. It's just this strange dynamic where the person themselves feels like everyone's just forcing that on them. And if anything bad happens, it's like, well, you're going to meet, you know, and it's just annoying to them almost. But they get trained to say that.

Absolutely.

A good question, Amy, might be, how do you enjoy your meetings? Or which meetings do you like better than other meetings? Because that creates, like, a dialogue. Yeah. And it doesn't feel like you're sort of forcing it on them. And if people tell me, like, yeah, I've been, but I don't like them, then we can process through that. Maybe there's a different means, better, or maybe meetings aren't the best for you, but something else is. Right.

Yeah. And, you know, Amy, the other thing, too Is that, you know, we obviously encourage parents to work their own program. So if you're going to any meetings, whether it be Al Anon or your local, you know, intensive outpatient, I obviously come to hope for families. But if. If you may even talk about. To them about the meeting you attended, and then if they want to share anything about a meeting that they've been to, they certainly will, or they may not decide to, but that might be a way, you know, to have a conversation about the meeting that you've attended and share something that, you know, you thought was worth sharing.

So, Scott, did you just twist that back on Amy? You just basically said, are you going to your meeting? Man, that was smooth, Scott.

I didn't ask.

Julie. I'm about two months into finding out about my husband's meth use, and I do all of those. It's like, I can't help it. I'm so mad and so hurt.

Yeah. And, hey, it's understandable. We certainly have all been there. Those are true, raw feelings. And, you know, you have to process those for sure. What we suggest that you do is process that the right way and not to the addict. Not, you know, not in a hurtful way. And, you know, all those are, you know, certainly I've been there so many times, but. Yeah. So I think learning to process, process that through a friend or through a therapist trying to get help, but certainly trying to find a way to be encouraging and helpful to your loved one, to your. To your husband.

Yeah. It's just hard. It's like you found it out. And it's not just that you find out they have a substance problem, but you find out they've been lying for God knows how long. And it's just a lie. You know, it's a betrayal. It's. And it's never just that. You find out the one thing you uncover, this heap of mess. This is unimaginable.

Yeah. Like we talked about a couple of weeks ago is, you know, you obviously need to set some boundaries. Obviously, you need to make sure that you're safe, and you need to make sure that you protect yourself and those kind of things. But, you know, the anger and the hurt and all that is the emotional piece, if you can learn to take that out of. Would be helpful.

Yeah. We've got a good question right here, Scott. Somebody wants to know, did your boys live with you after the relapse? That's a really good question.

Yes. We made a lot of mistakes with that. Zach, as I said when we sent him off to the 30 day program. And I spent my $4,000 and thought in 30 days they were supposed to send him home a totally different person. He lived with us. And then of course, after relapse, we came to a point where we set a boundary and didn't want to live that way anymore with Zach and had to kick him out of the house. He went and lived with my mother for about nine months until she learned that she couldn't live that life anymore. And then with Cameron, yes, we've been through, we've been through a two or three series of moving back in, asking him to leave, moving back in because we thought it might be different and hoping that it would be different. Currently, neither of our boys live at the house. We say, you know, I think you almost need to never say never, but at this point in time, we think it's healthier for all of us for them to live, you know, in their own place and for us to live separate.

I think for young people, we've almost never, ever seen it work for them to go back and live in their family's house like after treatment or after a relapse. You, you really want to stay away from that if at all possible because it puts them back in that role with you. You can't stop being their parent. And they get annoyed with it because they're, you know, they think, I'm a grown up, do what I want, you know, and it just, it's just a bad dynamic. Adults, like if it's your spouse or something like that, it's a little bit different. But young people, that's pretty, that can, that doesn't work.

It doesn't work. And you know, I mean, once, you know, again, if they're, if they're 15 or 16, I think it's a different, obviously different situation. But you know, obviously Zach, when it, when it got really bad, Zach was 23, 24 years old, Cameron was 20. And you know, they were certainly capable of living on their own. And so.

Yeah.

And you know what we found out too, Amber is not only did it seem to work better when they didn't live with us, but we enjoyed them so much more.

Right. And you can do the things that we teach you so much easier.

Yeah.

Because when you don't have a front row seat and you have, you know, you can be with them at times when you have the energy and you can talk to them. Encouraging. But when it's in your house, it's almost impossible. Right. To keep your own emotions in check because it's what they're doing is destroying your household usually. Yeah. It's so hard.

Good question.

Let's see. John says, my adult friend has relapsed three times this year. Now ask if they could detox at my house instead of going away to a hospital or detox.

Wow. Yeah, that's a tough one. You know, I don't know, Emmy. You may, you may have a better shot at that one. I've not been presented with that issue.

It depends on what they're detoxing from. John, you need to know it's going to be ugly scene. So regardless of what it is, they're going to be cranky, they're going to be sick, it's going to be unpleasant. And that's okay if you want to deal with that. If the person is coming off of alcohol or benzodiazepines, which are things like Xanax, Klonopin, something like that, you want to be really careful there because those are dangerous and life threatening. So you want to make sure you don't have someone at your house that really does need to be in a hospital because that could be really scary for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know. When Zach, when Zach was in a 10 day detox, I think they found seven drugs in his system and it was heroin and cocaine and meth. And, you know, till this day, I'm just not huge educated upon the different, all the different drugs and the different things that it affects you. But, you know, you think as a parent, okay, you hear heroin, you hear cocaine, you think those are bad. But, you know, Xanax was what they were so worried about, that he would have a stroke and that certainly needed to be under a doctor's care to wean off of that rather than just cold turkey.

Right. It is what it does to your body. Physiologically though, coming off park can be more dangerous. And I think a lot of people are surprised by that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Nancy has a question. What are good phrases or approaches to use to approach an addict in relapse who's in denial or using bravado to let you know that their life is great?

Yeah. You know, if they are in relapse, trying to talk them into getting sober is, in my opinion, is almost impossible. You know, I think as a parent, you know, you can have conversations and you might let them know that you're worried about them. You might let them know that you're, you know, you're concerned that you're, you know, you love them and you want to see them happy and healthy. And all that. But I think having those conversations to try to talk them into, like, almost making them see that they have an issue or that it's a problem is almost like beating your head against the wall. Is they. They normally will kind of turn that around on you and certainly cause an argument and tell you how crazy you are. And it just normally doesn't go well.

Right. I think it's even okay, Scott, to even go with it. If what they're telling you is that their life is great and they're fine, you can take that at face value. You know, what you want to do is just keep your relationship with them solid. Now, obviously, if their relapse is impacting things negatively for you or in your house, there may be some boundaries you have to set. But if it's just your concern about them, it's okay. If they say life is great, you can say, man, I'm glad, you know, and be genuine about it. Be glad their life is. Is okay. And if you just have that empathy and that good relationship with them, when they get to the point where they feel like life is not that great, they'll tell you.

Yeah.

And if they're really in relapse, they'll get there.

Well, and we certainly had all those situations with our boys in that. We really never went through that period where there was any doubt. It was arrest, it was wrecked cars, not being able to keep a job. I mean, it was. Yeah, there was. There was no doubt whether there was an issue or not. So, yeah, didn't have the situation where you had to wonder, yeah.

Melanie says, is marijuana an addiction? Why is it becoming legal? Then I'll take that. Marijuana is absolutely 100%, without a doubt, an addictive substance. Why is it becoming legal? There's a lot of answers to that, but what I can say to you is it mostly doesn't matter because there's a lot of things that are addictive that are legal. So I would stay away from the legal, should it be legal, not legal conversation. It's just not that, you know, we don't care or whatever, but it's a problem that's so big and beyond that you want to kind of focus in on an individual basis and look. And actually, even though Scott sun was one of the first young people that ever said to me on their own that they were addicted to marijuana, I'm actually getting that a lot more and more and more. A lot more young people are actually coming to me these days and telling me that. And I think part of the reason for that is, is because it's legal in all these places and they have so much more access to it. And not only do they have all this access to it, but it's stronger, the concentration of it, stronger. They're using it in these vape pens where they're like literally using it all day, every day in front of everybody. There's no restriction. And so it's so big now that they'll come in and tell me, you know, I've had 16 year olds come in and say, I'm addicted to this stuff. Like, I see that a lot more than I did a few years back. Yeah, yeah. Let's see here. Sue just wants to say it does not work to find a mate at a meeting or with you, sir.

Sue, I hope you haven't ran into my son at one of these meetings.

For real.

Yeah.

Tony says I have to watch a session when I want to go back and check on him. My adult son is not working and is not trying to get straight. Isn't it hard, Tony? It's just hard to watch them make mistakes like that. Yeah, sometimes I say that's my whole job, just watch people make mistakes. Absolutely.

It's so hard. But, you know, trying to, trying to catch them, trying to save them, trying to deflect the consequences just doesn't work. I mean, it's something that's hard to watch, but it's almost something that has to happen for it to actually get better.

Right. And Nancy has a question about the holidays. The holidays are coming up. How do you handle relapse on holidays? To invite, not to invite. That is the question.

That's a great question. You know, I think my opinion around holidays, certainly people have different opinions. I can tell you how we do it in our family. Not, not to say that it's the, the only way, but, you know, we certainly don't have alcohol in our house on holidays. We've got two, two, two sons that have struggled with it. So we choose not to have it at our house. And we want to make it as enjoyable and stress free for them to come and enjoy our time together. You know, if. If does relapse, is that a time period where relapse seems to be a little bit on the rise? For sure. You know, I think there's a lot of emotions, there's a lot of things that can cause relapse to rise during holidays. And certainly you see, rehab business seems to pick up in January and February right after the holidays. Yeah. So it's certainly something to think about. I think as a family, I think what we choose to do is to go through it in a sober environment for our kids to come and enjoy it. And, you know, we don't worry about them, you know, when they come and spend the night for one or two nights. We're not, you know, we're not up there snooping in their room to see if there's, you know, pills or, you know, we don't. We don't search their luggage. We certainly just try to have a normal family, you know, gathering.

Right. And the only thing I would add to that is that. So the question is, is if they're in relapse, should you let them come to the holidays? I think just the fact that they're in relapse, if they're in relapse, but their relapse doesn't impact you negatively. If they come, it doesn't blow up the, you know, Thanksgiving dinner. It doesn't start fight. If they don't do really problematic things, then, yeah, they're your loved one, they're your family member. Have them to the holidays. The only reason not to have them in at the holidays if they're in a relapse is if when they use, they blow everything up. And I will tell you that it's not just that holidays are high risk for relapse, but holidays are just high risk for the, you know, what to hit the fan. Not just. Not just to start using, but just for a giant catastrophe and you got to know your loved one. And if what they do results in that a lot of times, then that might be a really good reason to avoid it.

Well, you certainly have to consider all. Everybody in the family. Right. So you don't want to ruin, you know, you don't want one to come and ruin it for everybody for sure. So, yeah, if you think that's going to happen, then you may have to set a boundary where.

Right. C.J. says rehab is not a good place to find a partner either. My daughter did that, regrets it. Well, we have some consensus on that. Right?

Yeah. You know, obviously, you know, Zach's been in this seven years, so he's got, you know, tons of friends in the sober community and, you know, certainly have seen situations where it has worked out. I'm sure people have tons of experiences where it hadn't worked out. I've heard a lot of horror stories myself. And, yeah, he's acting.

It doesn't work out when you're brand new or they're brand new. Yeah. Like when you're in treatment or you're first going to meetings, that never works. If you've got two people who've been in recovery for a substantial amount of time and they meet that, that could be a different story because they're already both stable. But the reason that happens so often is because you're putting people in a situation where they're opening up, they're being vulnerable with each other, they're sharing, you know, intimate details of their life, and they're coming off of substances. And so part of that is just all that stuff kicking back in. And I know it's definitely not good. I'm telling you, it is always bad. But one of the ways I know, especially with young people, just how bad the addiction is is I'll just ask them about their dating life. Because when they're really addicted, they'll say, I don't really. You know, they'll try to tell you this answer that they think adults like. Like, I'm trying to focus on me right now, and I don't really need to mess with girls. I'm like, no. It tells me that you literally are so consumed with the substance that you don't have time to be dating. And when young people are like that, I'm like, oh, it's bad. So if that's coming back, maybe, hey, maybe that's a good sign. Probably not a good choice, but maybe a good sign. Yeah. Thank you, everybody, for hanging out with us. If you are interested and need to talk to Scott to run your situation by him to get some advice, you got some concerns or you're stuck, you can use the link in the description to learn more about Scott, his story, and you can schedule an appointment or a session with him. Thanks, everybody, for joining us. We will be back next Thursday at 1.

Have a good day, guys.