My Son Had an Addiction and I handled It In All The Wrong Ways

We have an exciting day for you guys. We have our first true story live interview with Donnie and Christy, who are going to tell us from their first person point of view about their journey with their son's addiction, all the things that they feel like they did wrong and then all the things that they did to pull it back together, get on the same page and where they're at now. And we want to say thank you so much, so much for your willingness to share your story, because I know it's not easy thing to get out there. It's personal, it's difficult, but it really does help other parents, other families in your same situation. It really does. So, Donnie, can you. You're the one that sort of wrote the letter. And can you start us off with the beginning maybe how sort of bring us back to the beginning and how it got started or how you even like, came to know there was an issue?

Well, when it first started, I kind of ignored the issue or made excuses to what was going on. And even when it was blatantly in front of my face and evidence was there, I still excused it. And then when it was discovered that he was using, I went to the old tough love, let him hit rock bottom. And that was my mentality, because that's what I have told people before. And it come back and knocked on my door and I. I wouldn't change, you know, I was. I was still letting him hit rock bottom. I was distancing myself from him and everything that you could do wrong, I did it. But it's not uncommon because there's a lot of shame, there's a lot of fear, a lot of guilt, so. And there's not a lot of. We didn't have a lot of resources at the time.

There's a lot of misinformation out there, too.

Yes, ma'.

Am.

We never. I never stepped back and studied this, you know. So.

Yeah, tell us a little bit. When you said when it. It first started surfs and you made excuses for it, what were the first signs, symptoms like, what were the first little inklings that happened?

Best that I can recall, because we've been dealing five, six years, seven. So some of the stuff kind of runs together. But when it first started, it was just he. He was still living at home with us, just the distancing from us because he. He was always the typical story, the last one of our kids that we thought would go down that road. So distance itself from us staying out later than normal, lying, covering up stuff. And my wife said from day you know, early into it, there's something wrong, there's something going on. And I was like, he's, you know, he's 18, 19 years old. He's just, he's just doing boy stuff.

Yeah. I call that the boys will be boys, right?

Yes, yes.

And that's how I looked at it. And even when I saw that there was a problem, I still made those excuses because it was. I didn't want to deal with it.

Right. Don't want it to be. You don't want it to be that. Of course. So. So, Christy, tell us what you were seeing, like, from your point of view and how you knew, because this is really typical for moms. I feel like 90% of the time the moms are just having alarms go off and they're like, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. And sometimes that even pushes the other parent, like, further back. What was it like for you in the beginning?

Well, the things that I noticed initially with him, I mean, he and I probably had a closer relationship, I guess, because he was, he was always non confrontational. He did what I said. He was just a really good kid. He had some self esteem issues and, and he was also the baby. And he and his brother joined the Navy at the same time, and he, his contract didn't follow through. So that's when he started into the downward spiral that just. He and his brother had always been in a little bit of a competition, I guess, because they were 18 months apart, both same sex. His brother just excelled at everything. And for him it was a struggle. And so I always tend to, you know, try to cheer him on a little bit more because I could see that as a parent, you know, that he was struggling with that. So then when the Navy thing happened with him, that's when he really just, he sort of gave up on life. And I think before then, I don't even think he had done anything. And then he went straight into trying a little bit of everything. I think his, at that point, his first drug of choice was either acid or meth. And that was the first drug of choice? Yeah, the first drug, the first thing he tried was actually acid.

Okay, that's like, that's a big jump. Let's jump into the deep end.

He jumped completely off the cliff, really. And then the, the meth use is what brought on the anger, the volatile that, you know, and I, I just knew that there was something not right with him. He, he, we just, I just knew something wasn't right. He, he wrecked a car and said he blacked out. And you know, just little bitty things like that. That wasn't really a little bitty thing, but just things like that that just were not where they're so out of character for him.

How were you responding to him during that time? Like, how are you interacting with that.

Was absolutely trying to control every single aspect of he, you know, you're not going to use in my house, you're not going to use it all. We're not going to do this. You know, you're. You just telling him everything he wasn't going to do and stop it now. And I didn't realize at that, at the time. I guess I was really under educated about addiction. It's not a stop it now kind of thing for a lot. I guess for most people. For some people it might be. For most people, it's not that kind of thing.

Right.

And of course, he didn't have an issue. He didn't have a problem, the lying. He didn't really. When I say he was a really good kid, I know most parents have this issue where, you know, they steal from home first. He didn't do that to us. But, you know, he did have things showing up. So he was doing, you know, things like that with the addiction.

Right.

And you, you know, you question and you know, for me, I feel like I caused most of the arguments because I was so focused on trying to control him, to stop. I didn't even at that point, we did go into a rehab or getting help or, you know, intensive outpatient. None of those things were even on our radar at that time.

It was just like a bad choice, a bad behavior. Why are you going down this pat kind of thing.

Yeah, we sort of treated it like you stayed out too late. Don't do that again. Right.

And so, and so, Donnie, for you, when that was going on with Christy and she was trying to control it or arguing, what did you think about that dynamic at the time?

I checked out. I mean, honestly, okay, There was no peace at home. We wasn't on. On the same page. She was trying to, like she said, control and force. And I was on the other end of spectrum. You know, make him leave, send him out in the street, let him, you know, fend for himself. When he hits rock bottom, he'll see, you know, the typical, typical stuff. But yeah, I checked out. I. I didn't even want to talk about it. When she would try to talk to me about what's going on with him, I just didn't want to hear it. You know, I'm. Like I said, I completely checked out.

And Christy, what did you think about Donnie's response?

I was so angry and hurt and lost because, you know, with him being in public safety, he has the answers for everybody else. You need to fix it at home. And. Or at least that's what we thought early on, you know, is that he had the answers. They were trained to handle that kind of thing, you know, out in the field, but at home, it was avoidance and kick him out and not deal with it. And that never really set right with me. So it caused us to just become polar opposites. And really, we. At the time, we were fighting just as much with each other as we were trying to fight for him to stop doing drugs.

That's so common. And a lot of times, and I don't know if this was exactly dynamic for you guys, but this is what we typically see, is that the mom is freaked out and sort of knows something's wrong. So the mom just starts going at it, right? You know, the spine, we call it, you know, the CSI moms, you know, where they. They're spying and sneaking and to the phones and everything, and they're, like, arguing with the kid. And then the dad usually thinks, oh, my God, you're overreacting and you're acting crazy and you're probably making them worse, you know, and then the mom gets mad at the dad because the mom's like, you're not backing me up, you know, and then it's like round and.

Round we go, you know, and then. And then I would say hurtful stuff, you know, because, you know, I was mad. I didn't know what to do, you know, I would say stuff like, well, no wonder he does drugs. Listen to this. All, you know, just hurtful stuff, you know, and it would. It. Was it really just. Because I didn't know what to do. I didn't have the answer. And so we fought with each other probably more than we did him, because I was out of it. You know, I didn't have. She would holler for me to come in and say something to him, and I'd wind up getting aggravated. So.

And we. We like to say, you know, as long as that's going on, like, what you're saying is y' all argued more than anything, and. And that is almost like a deflection or distraction from dealing with the issue, you know? Right. So it's like I always say, if the addiction can get y' all over here arguing, then it's Just got free reign. And so it kind of was doing that in y' all situation.

Yeah. And I think we were preventing each other, you know, from even having the space and the time to even try to focus on, okay, how do we really help or how do we really help each other? We tried going to marriage counseling during this at one time. Not all counselors are like you, Amber. She actually told us we probably needed to get divorced. We didn't go back. And, you know, we stewed on that for a little bit and kind of hung in there. Really just a really poor family dynamic for a long time. And it affected our whole family with. With that because we were. We were so dysfunctional in trying to figure out where he was in the.

Addiction and then how or why or when did. Did things start to shift with you, with you guys?

Well, fast forward several years later, he had. He had. Our son had wound up getting endocarditis through IV drug use and was in the hospital for several months during that time. He got clean while he was in the hospital and seemed like we got him back and we was able to talk to him about going to. To a rehab, and he agreed. And another. It may be myth, but another thing, we started looking at stuff far away because we figured if we could take him out of this environment, that would be a big help. So through contacts that she made through some of the communities, we found this place in South Carolina, and he went over there, completed the program, went into transition, was doing great, and was living sober for about seven months. And then he had a relapse. And for about three months, he was in active relapse. But during that time, right before the relapse, she had discovered you the Kraft method and other avenues. And she was like, hey, I found something, you know, you really need to watch, or, hey, you need to look at this book. And, you know, we'd sit down sometimes at night, she'd turn on YouTube and be like, hey, let's watch this video. And.

What would you think when she would do that? Would it be like, oh, God, here she goes?

Well, at first, honestly, at first I was like, does this really work?

You know, yeah, can we talk about something else? That's what most of the dads are thinking.

You know, I was. I was thinking, you know, things are going good. Let's. Let's not focus on that again.

Right.

But, you know, we have to focus on it, you know, because we was trying to keep our kid alive. So she was the front runner in all of that. And I just was Kind of tagging along. But then when he was in the active addiction and we would go visit him and he was actively using.

The.

Way that she communicated with him through open ending questions and things like that, and there was no confrontation ever. Sometimes he wouldn't respond, but he would sit there and listen. And ultimately for me, he's back in rehab now and doing, doing well again. So it achieved the goal to get him back in rehab because just his demeanor, he needs that, that atmosphere.

And three months to get someone back on track is a pretty short time, to be honest, because if you think about it went on for a bunch of years. Right. Couldn't do anything. And so to have someone fall all the way that far back into active addiction and get them from there back to an active stage of change in three months, that's amazing.

Yeah. And when he, when he finally went back to rehab, he overdosed, which was a big catalyst in getting him back. You know, he went to rehab the very next day after that overdose. But he had, he's admitted since that it was, he was back into daily use. And so, and actually a couple of times a day, I think it was a twice a day use at that point. And so, yeah, to be that heavily, you know, in addiction for it to be that short of a time was, you know, and I really contributed to the, you know, to put the shovel down videos, the Craft method. The book Beyond Addiction has been a lifesaver for me. The Thrive group online with Pam Landhar, you know, I've been in that group for probably three years prior to founding you. I've not been very. Reading is difficult for me. I don't really enjoy it, so I do better with videos and connections. But I will say the, you know, the Beyond Addiction book, that might actually be the first book I've ever read.

Okay. And just so y' all know, I think you can get that on audible because I'm like you, Christy. I don't, I don't sit down and read. Well, I have to do it while I'm doing something else.

Yeah, yeah, I do too. But, you know, and sort of backtracking a little bit with. You asked what happened to change. I couldn't deal with the tough love and the rock bottom. We did kick him out because, you know, we. And I don't even know, looking back now, I don't even know if I would have done that. I might have done that a little differently. The more educated I have gotten with the disease of addiction, I don't know that I would have Done that I can't go back. And obviously, we're not gonna have a situation where we bring him back into the house, but. So I don't really know what will happen either, what would have happened then. But I've just seen so many different things that I wish I would have had this information in the beginning, we didn't have to go through the marriage trouble and that, you know, at one point, matter of fact, the day that I made the decision to make him leave the house, I had asked Donnie, you know, hey, I've got this issue. Are you in the boat with me or are you not? Because it didn't really matter to me what the issue was. And he said, is it drugs again? And I said, that doesn't matter. I need to know, are you in the boat or out? And he said, I'm out. And he left.

Wow.

That was. And I kicked my son out of the house the same day.

Wow.

And so we were separated for about six months and, you know, didn't really want to be divorced, but didn't really want to be married where it was either, and didn't know how to get help, how to get past that. And so when. When he mentioned the hospital, that was why we kicked him. You know, when we kicked him out, he actually went so far downhill that he ended up in the hospital with endocarditis. So, I'm sorry, I was gonna say.

Donnie, at that time, when she asked you that, why did you say, I'm out. Come tell us about what was going on with you and where you were at and how you were thinking and feeling.

We. Like I said, it's. It's something we've been dealing with for a while, and I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. And I was still hung up on the whole tough love, rock bottom case, because that's all I've ever heard. You know, I had some addiction in my family, but it wasn't close. So in the job, that's what people will tell people, you know, kick them out. You know, you ain't got to deal with this, you know, have peace, you know? So that's literally what I thought the right thing to do was.

And a lot of parents feel guilty if they don't. Like, they feel shame and guilt.

And other people will give you that advice, too. You're like. If you do talk about it, first thing they say, kick them out.

You know, you feel like you're not being strong. You know, you feel like you're being.

Weak or like, you're enabling. You feel like that, you know that. And people will tell you that, you know, if you don't do this, you're enabling them. If you, you buy my meal, you're enabling them, you know, and that's so not true. It's just not true.

So when she asked me that, it was, it was one early morning and she come in there and she was like. And he had come in real late that night, and this was in the midst of just it being chaotic. And she come in one morning and she said, I was in the bedroom. She come in and that's when she asked me. And I said, well, is it drugs? You know, which I knew the answer, you know, and she wouldn't tell me. And like I said, because I didn't know what to do. I was like, I'm. I'm done. So, you know, and we had our other daughter living with us at the time. And I kind of felt guilty because we was dealing so much with him. I felt like, you know, she was getting left to the side. So I told her to come with me and we wound up, me and her stayed at my mom's for about six months.

And that's a really good point. I'm glad you brought that up about your other daughter, because that's another thing that happens a lot is it consumes the whole family, right? And everybody gets impacted. And a lot of times the siblings, they either usually side with the brother or sister and, you know, they kind of team up with them and they say, you know, mom and dad, they're just jerks or whatever, or they get mad at, at the parents for putting all their attention that way. Right. And they, they're affected too.

I think she was affected in the, in maybe the neglect side of it, because I was consumed with that. But we're very thankful that we have four children total. And none of them seem at least, at least that we know right now. None of them seem very angry at Jordan or for us for helping and doing the way that we're doing things now.

Okay.

I think that everybody. The daughter that he's referring to is actually the baby daughter. She, you know, she makes it anytime she can. She can get the opportunity to go visit Jordan with us.

She.

She goes, okay, so it's a. And. And then the other two don't live really that close.

So now, Christy, earlier you mentioned, or you both mentioned like the, the open ended questions. Can you give us maybe some like, examples or scenarios so that, so that the other people out there listening kind of know what you're talking about.

So one thing that I found is, is if you, if you ask somebody a yes or no question, you know, are you going to be home at a certain time, yes or no. And that's all you get is a yes or no answer. But if you, if you ask a question that leads them, gives them the room to actually have a conversation back with you, not just yes or no, like let me see if I can think of one on the spot or even say, I understand that you're frustrated about, you know, well, the car. For instance. We, we had let him use a car while he was in South Carolina and when he was in active addiction, you know, I can't handle that liability because it's in our name and everything. And so, you know, I said, you know, how do you feel about us, you know, taking the car back until you get into a better spot? And it actually gave him, you know, he wasn't angry about it. We actually, in that whole scenario, long story short, we left him. We went and bought a bicycle on marketplace and left him with a bicycle. And even taking the vehicle in that scenario, because of how we worded things, there was no confrontation, there was no argument. He wasn't angry. He was sad.

Right. That's wild. Because that kind of situation would have resulted in like World War 10. Right. Normally.

And I think it was because I was, the way that I was directing, you know, it, it. The more I learned about, about the craft method, it became more about.

I.

Can'T let you use that car because it's liability to me. I could. My house, you know, if you get, if you were, you know, involved in an accident while you're using, I could lose my house, everything. And it's not worth it in your situation just to get you from point A to point B. It was a bonus that it, you know, maybe curtailed the drug use a little bit. But he, I'm sure he drove that bicycle to pick up drugs.

Oh, yeah. And so it's a shift in thinking from I'm going to take the car because then he won't be able to get it to I'm going to take the car because I have to. Right. For our family, otherwise we're in danger.

I was expecting a confrontation with that. I already prepared myself and it wasn't, you know, I was amazed. And then that, say, it probably was the same weekend. Some of the questions she was asking. There's a couple that sticks out in, in my mind. She was. One question she asked is, you Know, what fears do you have to go back to rehab? You know, and he was, he was actively, you know, had used earlier, so he was a little foggy, but he, he would get teary eyed on certain questions, you know, and sometimes he would answer, sometimes he wouldn't. But just questions like that, you know, what, what's your fears? Why do you think or, you know, it wasn't on this. Well, I think you need to do this or I think you need to do that.

Right.

Giving him options. And you could see it was really affecting him.

And that, that's just such great skill because I call that, you know, that's you pulling the motivation from them is what I say. And so you're asking questions about what do they think and what do they feel, not where you going, who you gonna be with, you know, stuff like that. And if you just allow them to come forward with it, it's usually in there. And I can tell you, because usually even when they're fighting with their parents and I get them in my office, they'll tell me, they know it's, it's most of the time in there, at least if it's not all the way, it's halfway. And so you just gotta pull it out. And that's what you were doing there.

And something else that, that I think was a big turning point. One last thing that I want to say. One, we was out there one weekend and the day before, he didn't use. So he woke up the next morning and he was, hey, I gotta go to the store. You know, he lived five minutes from a store, but he was gone for an hour. And he come back and you could just see it in him, his change of demeanor, you know, and I got aggravated. You know, I'm sitting there kind of like biting my lip, you know. And then she was like, hey, you know, I know you, I know where you just went. I know what you just did, you know, but let's sit down and let's talk. And he did. And you know, that totally changed my dynamics. Well, because I was ready to pounce, you know, and she, by her saying that, I know he never denied it, he just sat there and listened.

Shortly before that, I could tell that, I could tell that Donnie was kind of, you know, getting angry and. Because we knew what he was doing, you know, and, and, and he said he was like, I just don't understand. And I could tell him the tone of his voice, he was going to get angry. And I said, listen, you know, we're not going to Have a confrontation here. So if you feel how you need to feel, but if you need to leave, leave, because we don't need to have a confrontation. And I think that's also kind of what de. Escalated him a little bit and kind of grounded him to where whenever he did come back in the door, the scenario that he explained happened. So, you know, along the way, I didn't feel like I was learning anything, and I didn't feel like it was. And I was never going to be able to put it all together. So to see it kind of come together in these situations when we would head home, because it's about a six hour drive for us, we would be like, did that just happen?

I remember one time we got in the truck, you know, we told our goodbyes, and we had just pulled out of his apartment complex complex, and she was like, holy crap, that stuff works, right?

Right. And it really is like, it's more like a philosophy, and it's a different way of understanding. And once you kind of understand the general premise of it, the strategies come pretty easy. Right. You know, it's just understanding. You're thinking about it differently. I know you were saying, Christie, earlier, I think you were telling me one of the most powerful things was. Was the realization you had about the conflict. Can you share that with us?

Yeah. So I call it. It's like my biggest light bulb in learning anything and everything that I could about how to help my. How to save my son, how to save him, or how to. How to save all of us, I guess, because it's not really just about him. It's all of us. And, you know, one of the biggest things for me that was a light bulb moment is, I mean, I'm a little. Maybe a tiny bit of a control freak. So I have to have every. Or I had to have everything a certain way. And, you know, that's part of my personality that I'm working on getting better. But for me, the control I felt like I was causing or looking back, there's no feeling like looking back. I feel like I. The confrontation, me, I was the one causing the majority of the argument, because now I'm not approaching him in that area or that way. And we're not arguing. Mm. And the same thing with my husband. It's funny how these techniques work in every relationship in your life. It's not just addiction. Right.

I'm glad you said that. Yeah.

Because if we have a tip about something and I don't engage, the argument stops. I mean, the argument stops. So that Was really the light bulb moment for me. And I can't remember who said it. If it was, I think it might have been you, because you had mentioned your verbiage when. After we. After I said this kind of felt familiar. So I think it might have been you. Where, you know, you're not. You don't. You're not the reason they use, but you're giving them an excuse to use. Whenever you create that hostile environment and conflict, you're kind of shaming them into going back into their addiction or going and using or whatever when you're yelling and screaming and trying to control it. And that was a really big light bulb moment for me, is that, you know, that that control and that confrontation is actually causing them to use or giving them a reason to use.

Right. And the reason why I know that is just because after years and years of seeing people struggle with addictions, it takes weeks and months. Most of the time when I first meet them, all they want to talk about is how their mom, dad, spouse, boss, whoever, is such a jerk, and I can't even get to the addiction until that can get out of the way. So it's even a block for me. It's like all they can think about. And because it's all they can think about, it, like, distracts them, keeps them from being able to see what they're really doing. And so it. I call it enabling. I say that's enabling. Giving them that excuse.

Yeah, I agree with that. I do feel like it is giving them an excuse to do it. And something that I've noticed this time around in this last relapse with Jordan is I was able to see more of the shame and the humility because we took away the anger. So I could really see how his own choices were really impacting him. He was sad, and he was. You know, he didn't want to be there. He didn't. You know, he thought every day. Every day he woke up, he remembers telling me every day, or I remember him telling me every day he woke up was going to be the last day he was going to use, wasn't going to do this anymore. And something would trigger that during that process. And it. He was right back down the rabbit hole. Mm. And I really believe that nobody. Nobody wants to be. Nobody wants to be addicted. Nobody wants that lifestyle. Nobody wants to have to be that dependent on a substance to where their life is completely out of control. Right.

And what happens is I think everybody's running on fear. The person with the addiction is scared. Scared of what will happen if they don't? Scared of the mess that they've made, and how will they deal with it? You know, and certainly as parents, you're scared to death. How did you. Because that's the key.

You got to get.

You got to get. You got to get control of your fear. Right. How did you do that? Because that's what's. That's what's causing you to argue. That's what's causing you to run or engage. You know, that's. That's driving the boat, I guess, for me.

Just educating myself on anything that I. Anything that I could find about the craft method or any. Any group or, like your channel where it just. I mean, I watch videos all the time. I'm in those. In the support groups all the time. And listening. Not just how. Not just listening to the struggles of what somebody's typing in or whatever, but listening to the responses of the recovery coach or the therapist or whatever, listening to their responses. Because all of these things that we're going through, when you're a family member in this situation and you can identify with every single scenario. And I tried focusing more on what advice was being given by that person in the, you know, that participated in the craft method or whatever. I tried listening more to that advice that they were giving other people than I was focusing on, you know, their issue, trying to help myself.

Right. So you went into, like, research mode. And Campbell, I think in her parenting group, she calls that, like, the learning phase. And you were just, like, absorbing information. Yeah, as much as possible. Okay.

And I think in doing that, it kind of brought me peace. It kind of put me back down and grounded. And then we have a local group that we're not meeting right now because of COVID but we have a local group that we meet on Wednesday nights that's also graphite craft based. And I really. That connection in person made such a difference with both of us. We really look forward to going those meetings on Wednesday nights. And it helped to see. Not that you want to see anybody else struggling, because I would never wish this on anyone, but to see progress in myself. Where used to be right where you're at, you know, the fear, the anxiety, the. All of that, to be able to see that gave me the, I guess, affirmation that something I'm doing is working.

Mm. Mm. How. How. Let me say this. Those of you who. Since Christie's talking about identifying, those of you that are watching either live or on the replay, how many of you are identifying with some of the Things that Christy and Donnie are saying, you know, have you experienced some of these situations that they've experienced? Can you relate. Can you relate to what they're saying now? How did you guys get on the same page, you know, back to that moment you guys were describing, where you were saying, are you in or are you out? And you're like, I'm out. You know, how did y' all find your way back?

Well, basically, I think for me was, as I said earlier, I was kind of just following her at first. It was kind of like, you know, okay, I'll. I'll do it, you know, to avoid, you know, arguments or something, but also because she was so passionate about it. But I realized why she was, you know, because as every mother or family member, they're wanting to save somebody. They're wanting to. To get them help.

Right.

So seeing how engulfed she was with kind of made me want to. To learn more about it. And then, like I said, the big turning point for me was seeing it used, as in, before it was ending in confrontation or. Or hurt feelings and things like that. So actually seeing it used and ultimately made him go back to rehab. You know, if she hadn't, if we would have been forcing, I don't think he. He would have went, you know, because like I said, she was hitting points that was making him sad, you know, because he didn't want to do it either, you know.

Right. She was helping him access what was inside of him.

Yeah. Yeah. And before, you know, probably contributing to it, you know, with. With comments like you're the reason we argue all the time or this and that. So, you know, oh, well, if, you know, that's what it is, I'm just going to keep on, you know, who cares? You know, because you're not giving them a positive outlook.

Right. Just kind of like when you're saying that, I'm thinking of the phrase, like, seeing is believing. So. And I think it's funny because when. When Christy said she was learning everything about it and then she just started doing it, she probably. She probably didn't even know if it would work or not. And that's like people in recovery, we say, just do it, and then after you do it a while, it'll work, and then you'll believe it. Sometimes you got to do it to believe it. Yeah.

And I didn't really know if it would work. And what was funny is. Is what. I guess he doesn't even realize it, but there was little bitty things that I would do and say and tips That I would learn in dealing with him along the way. And I think it would be like.

So you craft method, Donnie? Is that what you're saying?

That's what you gotta do.

All right.

You sure, Slick. How we became engaged on the fact that there may be something to this, because I was reacting to him differently in our, you know, confrontations or arguments or whatever. And so. But I think I was just letting it seep out a little bit at a time or. Or, you know, I would be sitting on the couch and I would have, you know, a video playing or a, you know, a video from Pam Lenhart on the Thrive page or yours or whatever, and I'd have a video playing, and I'd turn it up. I wouldn't be earbudging it, or.

He was kind of getting the subliminal message messages. So you stopped trying to force him. So the first step you took really, was to stop trying to force your husband to see it.

Yeah, right.

And. And that's where you got to start. You got to start by getting on the same page. And sometimes you don't even go here to you. You stop trying to force your husband to see it. Then he can see it, and then when y' all can both see it, then you can focus on getting your son to see it. Yeah, I love it. That's perfect. That's exactly the way we want it to go.

That. That day that he was gone for that hour, the day that she, you know, I really seen it in play, you know, because as she said, I was getting aggravated. You know, she actually said to me, I can't remember exactly, but it was kind of like, all right, look at me. I need you. If. If you're going to be negative, I need you to sit there and not say a word. But I don't need. We don't need to go back down the road that we bend down.

That's what she said to you? She said that to you while he was gone?

While he was gone. So I was like, okay. I said, well, I just don't understand it. She said, well, you know, and then we actually communicated. You know, she was listening to my, I guess, concerns. And so by the time he got there, you know, I. I kind of chilled back out, and I would throw in something every now and then, but for the most part, you know, I was just listening and watch. Watching his reactions. That's. That's really what. What was getting me. Because like I said, you know, he's. Before, it was anger that. This time it was sadness. You know, big alligator tears forming up in his eyes. You know, even if he wasn't communicating, he was.

He was hearing it, right?

And. And I think, you know, getting you to sort of step, well, you were having that anger episode like Christie used to have, right? That time he was gone for that hour. And I say a lot there. There'll be moments in this where either one of you are triggered up, right? There'll be moments where one of you is just so dag on mad or upset that you can't think straight. And I say it's kind of like tag team wrestling. So once you get on the same page, you can say, all right, I'm gonna need a break. You can step in, or vice versa. And that's okay to do because. Because you're not going to be. You might be on the same page about how to deal with it, but you're not going to be on the same page emotionally at any given moment.

Right.

And so when you're triggered like that, you can kind of decide who's. Who's going in. And, you know, sometimes I say one of the parents usually has better skill at seeing the problem, and one of the parents usually has better skill at talking to the person about the problems. I call it front man, back man. Like the. The person that sees this, what's happening, and then the person that does the communicating kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah. But this. This whole thing is. Helped me, and it's helped me try to educate people because I know there's a lot of people that I come in contact with, and I'm sure other people feel this way that think like I used to think, and when I hear them, you know, saying negative stuff about addiction or something, you know, now I'm kind of like, well, hold on a second, you know, and then once you really start talking to somebody, you realize that about everybody has somebody they know or in their family that is struggling with this. And it. And then next thing you know, you're communicating with them and they're asking you questions on, hey, how did you guys do that? Or, you know, and. And it's. It's pretty neat, right?

While. While we're talking here, I want to tell you, if you're watching on the live and you want to put in the chat, do you guys mind if anybody asks a question?

I don't.

Okay, so if you're in the chat and you want to ask a question or something, just put a little question mark up there and ask your question. That way I can scan through and see if there are any questions to it. And while you guys do that, because there's a little delay, it takes a while for their messages to come through. But, you know, you're talking about that tough love philosophy. And. And it is hard because it's. It's out there and it's the predominant thought process. And the crazy thing about this. And this gets me in trouble sometimes, but the crazy thing about this, you know, where this comes from, is people in recovery. People in recovery are the ones that will tell you to do the tough love thing.

I have noticed that. I have noticed that.

Isn't that crazy? I think it's because they know they kind of had to have some consequences. So they know that part. But. But there's a. But they don't realize that, like, you can. You can expediate the process by not playing the bad guy.

Yeah.

While those consequences happen.

Yeah. I have a. There's a couple of guys that are in recovery that have been in recovery from the first time that my son went through, who are sponsors now, and they sort of have the, you know, the 12 step tough love, you know, kind of thing from a family perspective. And I've encouraged them to read the book Beyond Addiction, you know, from a. So they're there. They are, you know, in recovery themselves, but they're also in a position to help someone else.

Right.

And I think a lot of times they, you know, use the tough love and they got to hit rock bottom. And. And I'm like, not necessarily. There's. There are things you can do to help them out, especially. Especially if they burned all the bridges with their other family members. You know, you don't need your sponsors and things like that to be also, you know, tough loving it and, you know, that thing. So I've actually, you know, tried to help educate them and on how they can better help people that are relapsing or that they're sponsoring.

I'm surprised they listen to you on that.

They may not be listening.

I mean, it's good if they do, but I'm sure a lot of them are like, dude, I was there. I know what to do, or whatever.

Yeah. The one guy that I'm thinking of in particular, you know, he struggled with addiction for so long. His family is still kind of very withdrawn and very reserved. And so he appreciated. Appreciate seeing how we interact with Jordan. And, you know, and I think it causes him to, you know, think, I wish my parents were like this, or I wish my parents kind of, because I think they're still on the, he's been in recovery for a year and a half now, maybe something like that. And the relationship is still strained with his parents. So when we're really involved with Jordan, we tend to bring a couple of those guys along with us. And, and, and he, he's really expressed that, you know, so I think he's a little interested now. You know, he's, he's 12 step based, you know, hardcore. So maybe not totally.

No, I'm all about the 12 steps. I don't, I don't think that it all goes together in my mind. It's not a one or the other.

Right.

Everybody's got a piece of the puzzle, I think. And we do have some questions up here. Let's, let me see, look through some of these. So Connie says, my son is 36 and has been in 8 rehabs. Now I cut him off. Was that right?

I guess I'm, I don't understand what cut him off means. I mean, I think there, there's different levels of, of, of what that could mean.

Yeah. Does that mean like financially, does that mean emotionally? Right. That's a good question.

Yeah.

And I would, I would think the answer to that is, is, is it right that I cut him off? I would say it depends on why you cut him off. Did you cut him off because you had to for your own sanity? Did you cut him off because you think you had to cut him off for him to get better? If you did it for you, probably the right thing to do. If you did it because you, it's another way of trying to control him. Probably not as effective as you want it to be.

Well, absolutely.

She, I think she commented and said money.

Money. Okay.

And yes, I'll give my little input, something that we started doing as far as money. You know, they was a, there was a month there before he went to rehab. He didn't have any money. His electric bill was coming up and we kind of put the ball in his court and was like, hey, you know, you know, you need to figure it out because they'll cut your electorate off, you know, and you know, your phone bill. But you know, with that being said, even though we was kind of cutting him off and not rescuing him by paying his electric, there's. We still made sure he, he had some food in his belly, you know, just, just buying him a meal and stuff, I don't think that's, that's wrong. But if you just give them $20, I mean, you know, probably what he's going to use it for. So you know, I think if just going to McDonald's or you know, grocery store and saying, here, I got you some groceries and leave it at that, I think that's a good, good idea. But I think when it comes to bills and whatnot, we was kind of, well, you gotta, that's some, you know, you're a grown up. That's something you gotta, you got to figure out, you know.

Yeah, I never have a conversations with him saying, you know, we, at that time he had, did we take. Yeah, he'd still had the vehicle. And I was like, well you know, maybe you could doordash or maybe you can, you know, giving him ideas. And it wasn't for me paying the bill. It was, you know, maybe you could doordash or maybe you can, you know, you know, you, you've got a PlayStation, maybe you can sell that and pay your electricity bill.

And I think the way you guys are telling it to me or to us and the viewers is you. I can tell by the tone of voice you're using that the tone of voice you used with him was similar because it's like you're repeating back. So, so you didn't say, look, you made this mess, you fix it. So even if you're, you're going to cut them off, sometimes that's what you need to do. But do it with empathy, love, care, concern, so that they actually understand what you're trying to say, you know, because they do, they do get it. And if you just allow it, they, they know, you know, let's see, I'm, I saw some more questions up here. Someone is asking how can we apply tough love? What are some examples? So tough love it. It's just this general idea or philosophy that you have to like cut someone off, whether that's financially and also like emotionally. You got to kick them out, quit talking to them, don't answer their calls, don't give them any money and that's what makes them better. That that's the generally accepted idea. But I personally disagree. So.

Yeah.

And then Amy says, what if mental illness is, is part of the addiction? I don't know how comfortable you guys feel with that question, but if you do have something to say.

So for, for us, my son was diagnosed with ADD early on around the age of 13. He always struggled with low self esteem, I think anxiety, you know, that type of thing. But for him I feel like the drug use actually elevated his mental, any kind of mental illness and actually created some because at one time he was going to a psychiatrist that was considering him potentially schizophrenic. He wasn't. It was the drug use. Right. Those things magically disappeared when that come into play. Now do I think that additional therapy outside of treating the drug use or the drug addiction is important? Absolutely. There are a lot of reasons for, for him also the Navy, you know, the whole Navy incident where he didn't, he didn't get the contract that he wanted, you know, just totally nose dived him because that was his future. That was the only thing, you know, he's never, he wasn't one to want to go to college or things like that. So that, you know, there's a lot of different levels of mental illness or depression or things like that that could come into play for sure.

But I will say I think it plays a big part into it because something we didn't realize too on this journey, not only the resources for somebody with addiction is the resources for somebody with mental illness, you know, because the insurance is involved. I mean it's, it's, it's hard. So I think, I do think a lot of people do become addicted to it to curb whatever else they have going on. Self medication.

Yeah. Mental illness is almost always part of the equation. It was either there before and if it wasn't there before, if you use long enough, you're going to create some problems. So it'll be there eventually anyways. And the thing of it is, Amy, is that regardless of whether it's being caused by mental illness or whatever, these techniques are really just about treating somebody with a lot of human dignity. And it's about acting right yourself and treating yourself with human dignity. So these are effective techniques. Regardless. This is just a better way of interacting for your whole family. It just de. Escalates the situation so that we're stabilized enough to figure out what to do to treat the mental illness, to treat the addiction. So it brings all the chaos down. See here, here's a question. Rachel has a question. She says, I have a better relationship with my son now that I am not. Now that I am not, I am not being as angry towards him. But I really don't bring up the addiction because it's a sore spot. How do I talk with him? Are you saying how do you talk with him about the addiction part or just in general? Rachel, do you guys have any thoughts about Rachel's question.

For us? I think we try to use a combination. We tried to not make everything about addiction. So, you know, because your, your, your loved one is still in there. It's not they're not. They are not their addiction. They have a personality and everything wrapped around that. So I think we tried to. To focus, you know, on him at times, but then also at times, you know, we talked about different recoveries. We talked about. We talked about activating our own recovery. You know, I made it a point to say, hey, you know, we're going to classes on Wednesday night, or, hey, we've been watching these YouTube channels. Or, hey, did you know that there was a master recovery coach in Greenville, which is 45 minutes away from you? You know, that kind of thing. We just tried to try to always bring it up in a, you know, we're trying to educate ourselves kind of thing. And I really think you can learn from maybe doing the same thing for yourself and not tell them what they need to do or have to do or what, you know, I want you to do. It's. Try to try to spark a fire within them, that it's okay for them to start activating some of their own recovery.

But I think we. We also have left the open dialogue. If you want to talk to us about it, you can. And paste it. You know, he's still our child, so there's some things he still won't talk about to us, but we try to give him that option, hey, it don't matter what it is. After what all we've been through, you know, if you want to talk about something, we're here to listen.

And.

And I think that's been very good. And she talks about it with him a little bit more than I do sometimes. I still kind of find it a little uncomfortable to talk about, you know, your child with drug use.

Yeah.

But something that I have asked a couple of times, and she has to. When he has had those moments when he was actively using, kind of what was he thinking of? You know, was he thinking about something or was they an issue that come up that day that made you want to, you know, just kind of try to make him pinpoint some issues, you know, in itself of what the problem may be.

I like that because you're approaching it from, like a curiosity standpoint. I'm interested in what you think standpoint, not a judgment or you shouldn't have thought that or did that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. I found out early on is, is that you don't want to know everything. You don't want to know everything. So from a mother's advice out there, if you're trying to find out everything.

You don't want to know, and it doesn't matter anyway. The gory details don't make no difference anyway.

You know, I was reading phones and calling people and stalking people on Facebook, trying to find out who is. I mean, I was horrible.

I was going beating on people's doors, tell them to stay away from her kid.

I mean, what you think, what you want to know is what are they thinking and what are they feeling? Even if they're thinking, it's crazy and distorted. You want to know what, how they're making decisions. So if you're going to try to find out something, that's, that's the thing. Not the nitty gritty about it, because it, that's just, that's the same for everybody and it ain't pretty.

So now.

All right, here's our last question, guys. It is from me, I think I'm saying that name right. Christy, how could you keep showing him love in a way he understands? I'm having difficulty doing that due to my loved ones manipulation, lies and disrespectful.

So for me, I dove really, really, really deep into my relationship with God. That's, I'm a Christian and I, and I think from my experience, I felt like God was showing me different times, so much grace. And then the people that I tend to follow also are Christians for the most part. And they kept saying that to me about the grace. It doesn't matter if somebody is lying and disrespecting and manipulating. You don't have to return, give that back in return. You can still show someone love and grace and kindness, humility in any situation. And that doesn't mean you can't, you know, you never lose your cool or whatever. But learning to back down when something. And something for me that I've learned is I don't have to confront the moment. I can take some time back and think about it and come back to it. And if you, if you, if you learn how to do that, it really de. Escalates the situation. You know, if your loved one comes home and he's disrespecting you or whatever, walk away. Go, you know, go for a walk, go for, you know, remove yourself from that situation, then when you calm down, come back and deal with it. And, and that's really those little bitty things and those techniques is really how I have, you know, my son still lies to me. He's not really done much more so much on the disrespect aside from maybe lying to us or, you know, manipulating. He still does all those things when he's an active addiction, and maybe even in recovery, I'm not sure. But we just choose to approach it a little differently. And if it's something that feels overwhelming to you, don't react. Remove yourself, regroup. Go do something for yourself. Take a bath, take a walk, exercise, and then come back to it.

And I would say when you start changing the way you interact with them and you start treating them with respect regardless, they de. Escalate and they start. They may still be lying and sneaking a little bit, but they start treating you nicer, which makes the whole thing easier. Right. And then you kind of get a momentum going.

Yeah.

But you have to take the first step.

I will say one thing, one last thing. I said that earlier, but she actually asked Jordan. That's his name. Did you ever think Donnie would deal with this the way he's been dealing with it? And he was like, absolutely not. So, you know, it even surprised him how we are approaching it.

I don't know if we actually said this, but we're. We're a blended family. He's got the two girls, I've got the two boys.

Okay.

Donnie's actually Jordan's stepdad.

Okay, I didn't know that. Okay, well, thank you guys so much for sharing. Someone did ask, how do you learn about the craft method? And I think Christy said this, but there's a book called Beyond Addiction that teaches it. We teach it in our invisible intervention course. And just if you even Google it, we've got some videos. Other people got videos, but it's not as well known, so you have to search for it, but it is actually the most proven to be effective method for intervening with an addicted loved one there is. So I hate that it's not as known. We're hoping to get it out there even more. Thank you guys so much for sharing. It was so helpful. It was helpful for me, and I know it was helpful for everybody watching. Can't. We. Can't say how much we appreciate it enough. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.