Navigating Complicated Addicted Family Dynamics

When you have addiction in a family, it pits everyone against everyone. It can really destroy a family. And all sides have a lot of hurt feelings, resentment, frustration. All sides feel controlled and locked into certain roles, and it's very difficult to get out of. Campbell and I have been treating addicted family systems for a very long time now, and the way we've always done that is a little different than the way other people do it. We like to give every person their own. What we call advocate. Sometimes we call it lawyers.

You like to call lawyers?

I like to call lawyers because I always feel like a defense attorney. And the reason we do that is because sometimes the tension not. Let me take it back. Most of the time. I want to say always. We'll go with. Most of the time. The tension in families is so high, we can't even put. Put people in the same room and be productive. Right. Like, we can do that. But one of two things happens. Either everybody comes and plays nice, and then they. Because they don't want to argue in front of, like, the coach or the counselor or whatever, and. But then they leave feeling like, well, that didn't do any good. Or everyone comes in, they say what they need to say, and then everyone leaves feeling even more angry and upset, and they're like, I feel worse than when I came. Why am I paying for this? And so we have developed this system of sort of conquer and divide. And then a lot of times behind the scenes, the counselors, the coaches or whatever, we do a lot of the negotiating behind the scenes to help mediate some of the. The tension. It takes a while to be able to bring everybody in the same room. And it's so bad, Campbell, that sometimes, not a long time, we'll argue with each other.

Oh, yeah. Sometimes the lunch table is. Is less than pleasant because everyone's so entrenched in. In representing their person.

Yeah.

And convincing each other that, no, your person's wrong. No, your person's wrong.

Right. It's. We got. We've gotten better about it, but it has happened. We have locked horns. Yeah. No, she really hates. Mostly happens, I think, with couples more than parents and kids. I think that's not. It just seems like that. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think. I think to add to what you said for the. From the parent side of the thing or the grandparents is not only do we have to sort of mitigate all those feelings, but we also have to. I spend a lot of time working between head and heart and figuring out if I'm talking to parents. There's usually One parent that's just can't do quite what maybe I would recommend would be the best thing to do.

Right.

And so I have to sort of say, okay, well, we're going to just work with the softer heart and see if that's where we end up. That's where we end up. But we have to work with that. And so that's another thing that people is they have to recognize what their relationship with themselves and their ability to hold a boundary, have a boundary or draw a hard line is.

Right. And you bring up a good point, Campbell, because it's not just the. The person maybe that's struggling with some kind of substance use disorder pitted against the family member. It's the family members pit against the other family members. I mean, it is literally everybody pit against everybody else. And it is.

It's with themselves.

Right, right. And from the perspective's point of view, the reason that sometimes in the past, you know, we've got to the point where, you know, we lock horns with each other, you know, arguing it out behind the scenes about. No. Your client. No. Oh, did your client tell you they did this?

You know, I'm almost always right. And then.

Well, that's why I'm the defense attorney. So. So anyways, is because the person. That's the. Each person believes their side fully. And so as the people who listen to those people, we believe in their side fully. Right. And so it's not. It's not necessarily a matter of, like, one side's lying and one side's telling the truth. It's these different perspectives and looking at the same issue through different lens. Now, occasionally we'll run into it where it's like the story you're hearing and the story I'm hearing, we're like, are you talking about the same family? Like, we're not even on the same book. Like what?

Like, do they live in the same town?

Are you sure? Like, let's look at their. We open the file up like you're talking about this one, Right. And it's like, what? Like it's completely not in the same planet. Most of the time it's not like that. Most of the time it's the same story, but there's a different lens on it and a different tone, you know, when the story is told and stuff like that. And we have to do a lot of navigating all that and mediating it. And to be honest, everybody's right. Right. And it's. So it's not a matter of us deciding who's Right. And who's wrong. It's a matter of how do we fix it? How do we fix it? Right?

Or how do we move on?

How do we get. Okay, this is how you see it, is how I see it. Now what? Right? So I want to talk a little bit before we get into how to fix it. Let's look at the different perspectives, because I've got some things that I very commonly hear, like, not always, but almost always. I've got some things from the person with the addictions perspective about how they see things. And Campbell will know exactly how the family member feels on the other side of that. All right, you ready? I got a list of them here.

Okay.

So I did my notes.

I did not.

It's all right. You don't need notes. You got this. So here's something that the person that I see often says. Oh, my gosh. They freak out if I have one beer. They freak out if I'm gone five minutes. It's like just one little thing. And they're just acting like I've done murdered somebody. They just acted like I've just, like, done the worst thing ever. What the heck? They're such overreactors. That's how my people feel.

My people feel like, oh, my God, he's drinking again. It's the ninth night in a row. Will be one beer. Will it be 12 beers? I don't know. But all I know is I have to bathe three children. I have to get everybody to bed, and he's going to be sitting out here defending what he's doing.

Right? So. So in the addicted person's mind, it's like the family members freaking out over one beer, which in. In. In the addicted person's mind, it really takes away the credibility of what the family member is trying to say, because it's like, clearly, I'm not even. Like, I'm not even buzzed. And they're freaking out. And so in their mind, then they sort of put this label on you of overreactor. You're always anxious. You always worry about everything. You're critical. So they just sort of put this lens on you. And it's really hard to get them to quit seeing the family member through that lens.

And in truth, they are putting the lens because it's like Chinese water torture. And so they can't not see through the lens because it's just yet again, yet again. Here we go. Here we go, Here we go. And that even happens when people. We had this on the live call yesterday. Somebody was like, you Know, my husband is saying he's having sober October, you know, whatever. And you know, how should we respond? We were like, not whatever, but that's exactly what she's thinking, is we've done this before. We've done this before. We've never been successful. I don't want to jack up myself. I don't want to get excited. I don't want to encourage you. I don't want to be your cheerleader, whatever. We know that by the 10th, you're going to be just hammered.

Right.

And so it's hard to get people to say you. But you can't. You have to act as if he's going to be successful.

Right.

Or you're going to be the problem.

Right. So it's, it's like not only is it a jump to conclusions if they have one beer, it's like if even if they say they're not going to drink, there's a jump to conclusions. And that's why from the addicts perspective, it's like, it doesn't matter what I do, they're always negative.

Right, Exactly. Don't blame the attic.

Both people are right. That's the problem. You're both right. Yeah. Right. Because the family member, it's like, okay, if five out of ten times, when you have one beer, you have 20 beers and then something terrible happens three of those times, then of course when you have one, they're going to be on panic mode. There's a reason why they feel that way. Right. You know, that's, that's training over a long period of time. But it's also makes sense from the other person's perspective of, oh my gosh, they're freaking out after I have just.

One and I, I'm telling her I'm going to be sober, why she, why is she not jumping up and down?

Right. And so it get, it does get to the point where the family member, they get to the point, I think camera was like, they're afraid to get their hopes up.

Oh, totally.

Themselves. Right. Like, they won't even let it get hopeful.

Yeah. They can't stand the letdown. And they can't. They don't. And also I think if they get used to sort of living in this, it's going to keep going. Then they don't have to figure out what to say or do. They just don't ever believe it.

It's this sort of false beliefs. If I don't get my hope up, hopes up, I won't be disappointed. But that's not really Accurate. You're just chronically disappointed now.

It's not happy ever.

It's like a man trick. We players don't even your hopes up, but it's not, it's not helpful for you or, or for them. But I can understand where you come from because probably you got your hopes up the first 10 times they said that. And so it's hard to, to feel it. Yeah, Another one that gets. And it doesn't get said direct. Sometimes people directly say this, but other times they're just sort of indicating it. But basically it's like they feel like their loved one can't appreciate any of their good qualities. All they can see is this one issue, this one little flaw that they have. It's one little character defect. And it's all their family member focuses on. Even though they make it money, even though they help with the house, even though they take care of the kids, even though they do everything, it's the only thing the family member can focus on.

Yeah, we hear that a lot, especially with couples. And, and that's part of what Kim and I do is sort of help remind the spouse that there's a full circle. There's 360 degrees of this person. And yes, the drinking or whatever's happening is one little part, but there's the other part. So we kind of help to remember, look for that, engage with that praise that. Now with parents, it's not, it's not that easy because by the time they're coming to us, a lot of these kids are like the humanity is being taken out of them and they're, they're not going to school, they're not, they're stealing from you, they're never home. They're.

They're not, they're more in the non functioning category. Completely further, further into it. Yeah, yeah.

Most of the spouses we see are still.

On the upper level for the most part. Like they're usually still either either working or taking care of house stuff. Like they're still functioning on some level, usually.

And that becomes part of the problem because that's, from what you hear is I call those safety nets. So I have a job, we own four cars, we have a lovely home, and the kids.

What's your problem?

Right? And so I call those safety nuts and those buoy up adult addicts because they're like, I don't really have a problem versus kids don't have those safety nets because they just don't have them. And so they're much more likely to.

Say, yeah, they've put all that in place before the addiction takes hold. So that carries them away. Whereas when you deal with like young adults, you know, like late teens, early 20s, they never had those things in place. So.

Right, right.

Their addiction, it, it looks like it progresses faster. I guess maybe in some ways it does, but they just have less, like what you're calling safety nets to their.

Life becomes unmanageable faster because they don't have enough of those safety nets. Exactly.

And a lot of times they don't even have like good adulting skills at all. Like just to pay a bill, like to, you know, go to the DMV and get something to take care of stuff like that. And so it definitely hits them harder for sure. So the, the other thing, and I made a video about this, it's going to come out sometime, I think at the end of this month. But with addiction, it looks like really selfish behavior. But a lot of the people that I see to have addiction, they're actually overly people pleasing people. And so what happens is, is in their mind, they give, they give, they give, they give, they do everything, they sacrifice everything. And this is their one thing. It's like, this is my one thing I do for me, like, think about like the moms, right, that you see that, like, it's like I take care of these four kids. I go to the pta, I do this, I run carpool. Like I am constantly. I clean the house, I wash the dishes, and I want to have a glass of wine at night. What is your problem? You know, that's it. And, and a lot of them are very either a type or people pleasing or productive people. And so it's like, this is not one thing, my thing that I have for me, and you just want to take it away. What do you got? What you got to say about that, Campbell? It's my one thing I'd have to.

Say is that one thing getting in the way of your other 400 things.

I think, I think the problem is it's not so much that it always gets in the way of the 400 things, but whatever happens when the one thing goes down is so bad that it really kind of does override.

Yeah.

All the other stuff, right. Like, for example, if you're a great parent, right. And you are great provider and you coach your sons, you know, little league team, all the things, right? But then you are doing cocaine once a month and you're gone four days of the month and everybody's scared. Yes, it kind of does. I mean, I hate to Say kind of does override all your good deeds. You know what I mean?

I got nothing. I got no defense on that.

You got enough credit in the bank that, you know. But a lot of times, the one bad thing, you know, the acting crazy, the being really intoxicated, the throwing things, the yelling things, it's so intense at the time. It's so bad, it kind of does override everything. And.

And I think if it happened once, which would not be addiction, then, you know, obviously your spouse or whoever, your parent would get over that. But it's the once a month or every three months or whatever. There's a scene, there's an ordeal. There's a thing that's. That throws it into the addiction category, because when this happens, there are negative consequences.

And those. And those consequences are so big, you can't.

They're inescapable. They're undeniable.

Right? Like, if it's like you're driving with the kids intoxicated, you're flunking out of school, you're. I mean, they're giant. Right? And it. And I think what happens is, from the addicted person's perspective, it's like, okay, yeah, I did this bad thing. But there's a tendency to want to isolate what they. What you want to do is you want to isolate the one bad thing, and then you want to minimize it, and you want to make a lot of rationalization. So even if you can admit, yeah, I did. That was terrible, You. You. What happens is the addict person doesn't want to look at the whole full big picture. It's not like Campbell said, that happened one time. Right. Is it happens twice a month or whatever. You know, it keeps happening.

Well, I think that's what addiction is incredibly successful and really wonderful at, is the rationalization and the validation. There's like. There's always a reason to use. There's always a reason that it'll be managed. There always a reason it won't be a problem. And that's how addiction thrives, is that that survival part of the brain isn't very smart or kind. So it rationalizes and justifies every decision around the usage.

Right?

Yeah.

And not only that, it really is sort of like the. The perfect weapon to take down people and families, because the thing that can fix addiction is the family. It is the connection. And so not only does it sort of shift up your thinking and make you rationalize that way, but it pits the family against each other. And that's why it lives, and that's why we come at it from the family perspective, because when the family unites, it pushes the addiction out. It's really. It's the fix, it is the cure. And. And the way that this works is alienates everybody. It burns all the bridges. So I kind of. I like to say it's like a lion getting the zebra by itself. Right. It's like running until it's like that one right there. And it's got you. That's what it does. It wants to alienate everyone else because once everyone else is gone, it has full control of you.

Right.

A lot of eventually what happens to the people that I see is they kind of develop this secret fantasy of if they just leave me alone. And it looks like for people that are married, for spouses, it looks like maybe it'd be better if we just got divorced. And then they sort of develop this. This almost like escape route in their head that they're planning. And then they can get to the point where they're almost like trying to push the family member out. It's almost like they're doing whatever they're doing to instigate you to leave because they. They secretly want you to leave. And subconsciously what that is is like the addiction just wanting full reign. Because the addiction knows the family member is the thing holding the floodgate back. Yeah.

And we didn't see it. Even with kids. Like, you know, even with my own, I was like, you know, these are options to stay here, be in school, be an Iop, be working and paying rent. That's not working for me. And off he goes at 17. And that was the addiction just saying, yeah, let's go. Exit stage left.

Right? And you bring up a good point, Kim, because with the young people, it's a slightly different fantasy. And I'm laughing because it's. It's slightly more ridiculous. Let's just be real. The fantasy is if they would just get off my butt, but pay my bills and pay my rent and my car payment, I'd be fine.

If they just let me live here and come and go as I please and not have any responsibilities or school responsibilities, then I'd be fine.

And the thinking is, I'm an adult, right? Like they shouldn't control where I go and what I do. I'm an adult. But the.

Or even if they're not an adult, like we, you know, some 15, 16 year olds, they're just entitled. And it doesn't occur to them that those things wouldn't happen because they should happen, because they're so entitled.

Right.

Exactly.

So it's, it's a bit more irrational, I think with some young people, with some, with the older ones we see that are still somewhat functional, it's, it's harder to get them over it because it is slightly rational. I mean, because it's like, I'll just give them go my own apartment because, you know, they got their own money or whatever it is. And so they have this secret out. I call it like. And, and even when things start to get better and the family member starts to change, it is really hard for me to get them to let go of this secret fantasy out because they've usually been like nurturing this thing for years by the time they get to me. And so I'm like, okay, you're complaining, but she's not doing that anymore. She stopped doing that three months ago. And you're still holding that against her. And because it's like in their mind, they got to the point, it's like, well, I don't really even want it to work.

Right.

Right. So there's sort of. But I think that's also. Flip side.

The flip side of that would be that somebody might actually be cutting back. They might actually be getting a handle on this or certainly learning something from their usage and, and going that way. But the family member, sometimes we have a hard time getting them to say, look, this is progress. Like, we're not going on a zip line from A to Z. Continue just perfectly. We're going to do that, but we are still going.

Right.

They're like, no, it's out of control. I'm like, give it some space for him to get better on his own and figure this out.

It's a jump to conclusion. And both sides do it because I know, I feel vindicated.

I feel vindicated.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you're sort of instigating that response because it's that ego part. Right. Like, I knew you're gonna do that. And you're like setting the person up to fail or making sure you get that bad response or whatever to, to kind of validate your own theory. So it's like, even when people are trying to do better, it's hard to get people to let go of this power struggle that they're engaged in.

Well, change in general is difficult for people because we, when the one person changes for the worse or for the better, we. Well, for the better, we don't trust it. And so we stand back, we don't give it any accolades, we don't give any credit. We don't Express gratitude. We don't acknowledge it. And then the other person who. We just went away.

Now we're here. I see you.

Oh, I just got this weird picture. Hang on a minute. Okay, I'm looking at something on the Internet, and so the person who's making the change says, screw it, and they go back, and then the other person says, yeah, I didn't think so.

Yeah. The same way you were saying earlier, Campbell, about how, like, if somebody says, I'm doing sober October, and the family jumps the conclusion of, yeah, whatever. Heard that again. The. It happens in reverse exactly the same way. Okay. Yeah. They didn't yell this one time, but I know they were thinking it.

That's true.

I'm like, yeah, they probably were. They didn't say it. So what?

It's a progress.

They probably were thinking it, but they didn't say it. It's like they don't want to get. It's like either side doesn't want to give the other side a win. Yeah. Yeah. It. It's very, very difficult. But the thing of it is, is if. If you can get. Yes, it's a problem. But if you can get the family to see that we are a team, and together we're going to figure this out. The faster that happens, the faster the situation gets better.

Yeah.

And I can.

I've sat in many, many joint sessions with you and had to say, like, to your client, who thinks, of course, I'm like, the.

Oh, you are, Dude, I'm. Seriously.

I'm on your team. Like, I like. I know. I'm, like, steering your wife this way, but I'm on your team. I want you to get sober. I want your family to be happy and wonderful again. And they kind of roll their eyes, but later, they do give me credit.

They do. But it takes a long, you know, two years later, my office is at.

The back of the building. So they don't. They don't have to look at me. You have to shroud the pictures of me.

I. I tell them the secret camera. I say, let me tell you something. You're gonna notice that your family members acting better because they're seeing Campbell, and you're gonna like it, and you're gonna think, finally, and you're gonna think you're getting away with it. But let me tell you what's really happening. Campbell is telling them to step back and wait for you to put your own stuff in the trap. So don't. Which probably doesn't help them. Not trust. That's not working with us. That's working against us.

Now we know why nothing is working. Well, just, Amber, don't fall for that.

Basically, I'm just telling them, like, don't think that this is a free pass. Because sometimes they're like, oh, finally she's come to her senses. She's cool with it. I'm like, that's not what's happening here, dude. That's not what's happening.

I can drink all the time in the garage.

She loves it, right? What's happening is Campbell's like, said for to stop trying to control it and let it. Let it happen. So it's not so much the times when it's like the family members trying to do better and they're trying to be. It's more like when they're just like, oh, finally, she's fine with it and I can do whatever I want. Right? She's buying beer and leave it in.

The refrigerator for me. I don't need to see you anymore, Amber.

Yeah. Yeah, that happens sometimes. All right. What's the big thing you hear from your perspective, from the family members perspective all the time, that maybe the addictive person needs to hear? Understand?

I. The sadness. I. I think. I think the emotional response from the family member is the most difficult to deal with because I get it. And there's really no fix for it. And it's that. It's that disenfranchised grief because they don't know who to talk to about, which is why, like, you know, like, our live calls are. Are such a help to people. And this is a help, like, because they can. They can share something and voice it without someone going, oh, that's gross. Like, really, your child's a heroin addict. I think the sadness. I think the loneliness and the hopelessness, like, will, this. This won't end. He's gonna overdose. He's gonna die. I'm gonna have to leave him.

It's.

It's really the sadness.

It is. And that kind of brings. It reminds me of another thing that happens. Like, and this is the thing that happens once both people are actually in the right direction. It's like the addictive person feels like, are they ever going to get over it? Are they. You know, maybe they've been doing really good for months. It's like, are they ever going to get over it? Are they going to always hold this over my head? Are they going to constantly bring it up? And that's. That's a problem in the healing process. Very. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about. Are y' all ever gonna get over it? Yes. Yeah, yeah, tell us about that. Tell us about that. Because we, we need to hear.

I think it comes with time. I don't think it's, it's instant, but everyone loves a hero and everyone loves a comeback story. So I think once you really believe it, and it's not really believing it's, it's living it. Once you see that limbic brain coming back, engaged, and once you sort of see, I don't know, the, the humanity return to the person, you begin to trust that this is actually going to stick. And once you begin the trust, I find it very easy. It's, it's pretty quick, right. I think the problem is, is that if it's relapse, relapse, relapse, those are the people I feel the worst for. And luckily I didn't have too much of that in my personal experience, because then it is hard to get over because even, like I have clients, they're like, I know he's been sober for three years, but we've gone four years before.

It's like you have to surpass your past longest time or something by, by a minute. Yeah.

And so I think the only thing to do is just, just to look. Do we still have limbic engagement? Are the, Are they curious, interested in and receptive? Are they bringing it? Are they. And look for those things, because those are. Once those start to go away, then your distrust can come back. As long as those things are in place, I'm like, put your trust in it. Nothing permanent in the whole wide world, right? Life's not permanent. Power is not permanent. We've learned in the last two weeks. So I'm like, give it, give it. When it happens. Give it right.

And I have to tell my people all the time, too. I have to say the thing of it is, is like, okay, I know that. I know you mean it this time, and you know you mean it this time, but you're saying the same thing to them that you said a hundred times before when you knew you didn't mean it. And so it's like you expect them to know that you really mean it this time, even though you're saying the same thing and maybe doing the same things. Whereas I know before you were going through the motions, but this time it's different. But how's your family member supposed to know that? And, and so we do a lot of talking on our end about how can you let them know that? And, and there are some ways, because it's not just Like, I mean, at this time, or I'm gonna go to a meeting. It's gonna take more than that. It's gonna take more. It's actions, not worried. And say, hey, I know I've said this ten times before, but. And then tell the. Some of the behind the scenes of it, which a lot of times, a lot people are afraid to do because it's scared to get vulnerable, because they're scared to bring it up because they're like, oh, my God, it's going to set them off. And I don't want to deal with that.

What I tell family members, I don't care if it's parents, grandparents, spouses. When you see humility and willingness, you just. That's when you give yourself. As long as you're getting that. Because it takes a lot of humility to be vulnerable. It takes a lot of willingness to. To share. It takes a lot of those things. So those are the things I always focus on when clients are telling me their story. I'm like, you're screwed. Because I hear zero humility and willingness right now. Right?

Because those are. Those are indicators of recovery. Not just clean today. Right. And there's. There's. Right, those are indicators. There's a. That there's a spiritual transformation happening, Right.

Like a bigger thing than sobriety. Sobriety is one thing. Humility and willingness are, to me, signs that that person is coming back into the picture. That person is showing back up. Not just. I'm not using.

Yeah. It's hard to explain, but even on my end, when I'm talking to people, I can usually see the difference because there's just a certain way addiction thinks and does, and there's another way. And when I see that shift, I'm like, okay, this thing is different that's happening here, right? Like, there's a more authenticity there. I know you've got a client, Campbell. You've got one minute. You got one minute to drop the most wisest wisdom of all, wisdom on us before you leave. What you got?

I got power today. I think just trust that this can get better. Not that it will, but that it can. And I am taught me this years and years and years ago. 100 of the people whose family members, as well as the person struggling with the addiction, 100 of those people who do what is recommended or told to them, stay sober, get sober, and stay sober. And that to me is like, that's the gift is just if everybody in the formula will do what professionals are recommending and suggesting or what their sponsors Recommending or suggesting anyone but them.

Right? No.

Yeah.

Not us.

Just anyone that's sober. If you'll do that, you'll stay sober and your loved ones. Yeah. And for the family, I'm like, I know you don't want to do what I'm telling you to do, but for us to get to the 100 Club, this is what we're going to do, Right? You don't want to be at the 100 Club, that's fine. I don't live in your house. I can live in 69 to 69%. But do you. And they usually are like, no.

And I'm so glad you said. Because you hear all the time, like, they tried that treatment at work. I'm like, okay, but did they do it? They're supposed to do. Did the family do. They're supposed to do, like. I'm like, there's a million ways to do it. All of it works to me.

That's why people. The average is people go to treatment eight times because they're not.

To come to terms that they have to do the thing that they're not. You have to actually do the thing.

If they happen to do the thing, they just be the ones.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right, Campbell, go help some more people. I'll hang on for a few more minutes. I'm gonna answer some questions. If you want to, I'll take you off screen so we can model.

Okay, Perfect.

Okay. All right.

Thanks for having me.

Bye. Thank you. All right, everybody, Bree's gonna jump in behind the scenes and help us to moderate. We're gonna take some questions and concerns. Thank you for everybody who's here hanging out, joining the conversation with us. Some of you are doing a great job already. You're putting the question marks and the cues and the questions in front, which helps Brie while she's getting settled into her desk, and she can do that for us. I'll remind you, there are resources is always in the description. We have a free Facebook group for families where you can interact with other people who are learning the same philosophy as you, come from the same perspective. We have a coaching group where Campbell and Kim come on every single week and answer questions. It's like this, but it's small and live and private, where you can actually ask questions more in detail about your situation and get feedback from Kim and Campbell. We have all kinds of resources down there. We have free downloadable resources. It's all in there. All right, Bri, I know you're just getting to your desk. We're Pushing you to the limit today. Give us some good questions. Here we go. Denise says, what do you do when your spouse is an alcoholic? And the only time he will acknowledge that he has a problem is when he has done something really bad. Other than that, he thinks he deserves to get a drink and act a fool and honestly not be a part. How do you get past that and move forward because you just not want to get help? I like this question, Denise. This is what we call, what I call a moment of clarity. And it usually does kind of happen after something goes bad. And you'll get a lot of these. It's like this little window of opportunity opens, and what you have to do is you have to capitalize on these windows because you're right, Denise. It doesn't last very long. It's usually after something happens that they regret. It's like they're seeing the situation honestly. They're usually being like, I'm done with this. I don't want to do this anymore. Sometimes they'll make promises, but it's at this moment where the window is kind of open. And what you have to do, Denise, is you have to do some behind the scenes, like research and information gathering so that when you get one of these moments, you have some options, some suggestions, some opportunities. And if you're working on invisible intervention program, you know about bidding credibility so that you have built enough trust so that when you have this moment and you've built the trust and credibility and you've researched some options, now we have the trifecta. Now we have the situation where you can say, have you ever thought about X, Y or Z right when that window's open, and that's when they will take that suggestion because it's the right suggestion. You've done your research, you've built your credibility, and the moment is here. It's like a fire drill. That's what we teach people in invisible intervention. It's like you're lining up your trust and credibility behind the scenes. You're getting all your pieces together, and then it's like go time. And the crazy thing is, and it's just like you don't always know when it happens. It's like they could be talking all week long about how you're ridiculous and they don't have a problem. They could be saying all this stuff, and then all of a sudden Tuesday morning wakes up and they're like, I'm really sorry. You're right. I hate this. I don't do this anymore. And the moment's Here. And if you're not ready, you don't have your trust built, you don't have your resources ready. You miss your moment. But don't worry, you're going to get another one. And so in that time in between, that's when you get ready. Susan says, best response for condescending communication. I think the. The best runs. Oh, let me tell you, I cannot think of this guy's name, but he's a lawyer and he taught. He's a real lawyer, not me. He's a real lawyer and he has a YouTube channel. And he talks about how to respond, respond, like if someone makes a nasty comment to you or passive aggressive. And the. The advice he gives. And he has so many videos, they're really good. You should check them out. Just type in, like, lawyer and communication skills or something. It'll come up. But he talks about, hey. Just calling out and say, hey, did. Did you mean that to hurt my feelings? So it's like sometimes people make a passive aggressive or condescending comment. It's like we can either say something snarky back or we can ignore it, neither of which are very helpful. But just like, literally, stop, take a breath and be like, were you trying to hurt my feelings? Super calm. And what you're doing is you're taking that passive aggressive, condescending thing and you're pulling it to the top of the surface. And most of the time when you do that, the other person's like, squirming me. Because I didn't really expect to sort of be called out like that, which is different than being provoked back. I'm not saying say something nasty back. Say, wow, that's kind of hurtful. Is that the way? Did you mean that? That way? And then. And then usually they're usually like, oh, I didn't mean it that way. And they start backtracking. But check out that lawyer's video. He's got some really great. There's some more to it, but he's got some really great, different responses for that. RH Says, how do I manage my husband, who's been sober from alcohol for seven months, but is not in any recovery program. His anger is still there. I think one of the things that's happening here, RH is you're. You're worried, rightfully so. It's like, okay, yeah, he's sober for seven months. You're kind of doing that thing, I don't know, I'm guessing projecting here, but you could be doing that thing Campbell's talking about. It's like, okay, he's got seven months, but he's not going to no meetings. It's not going to last. So you're, you know, you're afraid to get your hopes up. He's, you know, you're maybe stuck in your fear. He's maybe stuck in. His anger is to figure out what it is. He probably, if he's still angry, probably feels like he has some kind of problem. And maybe he doesn't feel like he needs to go to recovery meetings, but maybe he feels like he has anxiety, maybe he feels like he has ADD maybe he feels stress. He's got some perspective. Everybody in their life could say, yeah, this is my biggest problem right now. Maybe he thinks it's marriage wrong. Maybe he thinks it's a work problem, whatever. There's something he thinks is an issue. And when you've built trust with them and you can say, hey, have you ever thought about X, Y or Z? And then sometimes you can get people to take a step towards therapy, counseling, a church group, whatever it is you think that they might be open to, to kind of get them on a little bit more of a recovery path. But use in addiction, we call it, take any open door. What's their open door? What's the thing that they think is the issue that they're willing to address and step through that one. A lot of times people have anger, are really anxious. That's just a hint. It's just a guess. But angry people are usually anxious people. Kim says, my loved one quit drinking for 45 days, but slipped back in and quickly accelerated and is now worse than ever, a fifth a day. Any suggestions on how to communicate about this with him? Well, here's the good news, Kim. The good news is you have 45 days, which is, like, long enough time that he probably felt better. Life was probably going better. Things were more manageable, things were simpler. His move was better. And honestly, and you've probably heard me say this if you've been around this channel, Kim, but if they're going to go back, number one, it is going to go quickly. Number two, I hope it's going to go quickly because it makes it very evident and very clear if you're going to realize back, you're going to be back to where you were very quickly and sometimes worse than ever. Just like what Kim is saying. And the fact that it is gone so bad so quick, it's. It's kind of in your favor, Kim, because it makes it obvious what the issue is. If they had slipped back but they just had two, and then they didn't use for four days, and then they had two, and then they didn't use for a week. And oh, my gosh, that's when it's really painful because that will go on for six months or a year. This is going to be very evident. And so what you do is you damage control this. And I've got some videos. I'm trying to remember if it's the video that came out. Yeah, I think the video that came out on Tuesday. If you go to the channel and you hit videos, they put them in the most recent. It's. It says exactly. The title is exactly what to do if your loved one relapses. Check out that video and it'll give you the more detailed version of how to respond there. Karen says, what is your opinion about paying for my loved one's commissary while incarcerated? This is a good question. The way I make decisions, Karen, about how much to help versus not help is, I like to say, help someone as much as they're helping themselves. If your loved one is calling you up and they're still blaming everyone and everything, and they're being nasty to you and they're holding you emotionally hostage, then it doesn't make sense. Right? It's like, would you help someone on the street that was nasty to you? Probably not. Okay. If your loved one is insightful and they're trying to help themselves and they're showing humility and willingness, like what Campbell's talking. If they're taking steps to help themselves and you're taking steps to help them, that's okay. And the reason it's okay is because you're going to feel good about it because you're going to feel like you're helping them. If this person is demanding and threatening or guilting you or manipulating you and making you feel. Feel like you have to put money on their commissary, that's a whole different situation. And if you do it, you're going to feel resentful about it. And if you feel resentful about doing it, that's how you know you shouldn't be doing it. That's how you know you're enabling. When you're helping, you feel good about it. So if they're helping themselves and you're helping them, then that's helping, and that's okay. For God's Glory says, if a teen is using alcohol or drugs every other month over the last year, is that considered addiction? This is a really. This is a really Good question. And it's really hard with teens, right? Because we know teens, they rebel, they experiment and it's like, and they have nasty attitudes sometimes. It's like, it's hard. It's like what's within the normal limits and what's out the way. You know, something is addiction isn't about what someone does or even how often they do it. It's about how much. Unmanageability is a recovery word we use. But how much problems is it causing in their life? Is it causing relationship problems? Is it causing financial problems? Is it causing work or school problems? Is it causing, you know, they have boyfriends and girlfriends breaking up with them, Is it causing them trouble at home? You know, it's like, even if it's every other month. But it's like when it happens, you know, they get arrested, they go to jail, their person breaks up with them, like all these bad things happen, they, they miss their final exam. That's it. That's an, that's an indicator that you're looking at addiction. It's like continued use despite the fact that the consequences are really great. And seems pretty obvious to everyone else that the consequences outweigh the pros. That's when you know you're getting into addiction territory. But, but super good question. Pat says, how do you get an addict to accept responsibility for their actions? This is a big question, and I'm going to give you an overly simplified answer because we could talk about this for, I mean, weeks and weeks, but I think the, the way you do that is actually to be empathetic with them. When someone's done something wrong and you express empathy, it actually allows the learning part of the brain to kick in. So that's the first part of the formula. The second part of the formula is whenever possible, let the natural consequences of that fall. Right. And natural consequence means the universe imposed consequences, not the you imposed consequences because those are, the ones you impose are considered punishment. Natural consequences are just like the natural. Like if they acted like a jerk to their sister and now their sister won't talk to them for a month. That's a natural consequence. It wasn't like if you call the sister up and say, don't talk to them for two months and that's a punishment. Right? It's whatever naturally happens. You let those parts fall and you express empathy to them and then they start to learn. And that works whether you're dealing with a two year old, a teenager, an addict, a mom. That's, that's the formula that helps people Figure things out. Because when you can express empathy, it lets people guard down. They don't have to be defensive, they don't have to be angry. They don't have to make excuses and rationalizations and justifications. Like sometimes they'll start doing that at the beginning and, and if you're just empathetic, they'll move right on the other side of that and they'll be like, yeah, but I probably shouldn't have. And then they start to see their, their part of it. Rachel says, I have one person I confide in about my addicted loved one and that is his mother. It feels as though I'm doing something wrong because I know he wouldn't like it. Should I continue to confide in her? O this is a good question.

Oh.

Normally I would tell you no because I would consider that a his person. It's just really complicated because you're right, Rachel. Like if he finds us out, oh my gosh, she's gonna be so mad. And sometimes, a lot of times I find that of all the crap that goes on between people who have addictions in their families, this sometimes is the unforgivable as far as the addictive person feels. It's like this disloyalty and it comes from everybody was talking about me and everybody plotting against me that that can be complicated. But it sounds like it's sort of already down that road. I wouldn't necessarily say to them, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore because then the mom's gonna be like, what the heck, you know, it's just gonna be weird. But I would probably start backing out of that a little bit. You don't have to cut it off. But I would, I wouldn't tell her every single thing that happens because I just feel like somewhere along the the line that's of kind going to blow up in your face. On the other hand, Rachel, it is good that I don't know if this is your mother in law, if this is your boyfriend's mother, your friend's, whoever this is. But a lot of times the person's mother usually lines against you. So the fact that they believe you is good. And it can work in some ways because you can be on the same team but try not to do it in like this sort of we're against him kind of way. Cindy says my 26 year old daughter has gotten her way pushing parents away and says she's fine but is living on the streets in Alaska. Should we track her down or leave her alone? She has run from treatment three times since the age of 22. Oh, my gosh, Cindy, this is so hard because this is your kid who's living on the streets and of all places in Alaska, which I have to imagine. I don't know, I've not been there. But my guess is it's. It's pretty difficult to live on the streets there, but just because of the weather conditions and things like that. But it's really hard. I don't know that I would say if you have, like, if you have cell phone contact and you want to reach out and send a text message every now and then, just say, hey, you know, things are good. I'm thinking about you. Send a funny meme, have some just conversation. It kind of is a good thing because it can sort of leave the door as open. But the fact that you're saying track her down makes me think you don't have any communication with her. I don't know that I would so much track her down. Do you have the same phone number? Does she know how to get a hold of you if she needed to? Probably, right? Like if she needed you, she probably would. I wouldn't track her down and beg her into something else, especially if she's gone to three treatments and that sort of thing. Because you're probably going to set yourself up for the same scenario that you probably have already done several times sometimes. But if you do have contact with her, you don't have to cut her off emotionally. I just wouldn't try to force the situation. Elaine says when an alcoholic spouse leaves and gets an apartment, but keeps showing up for marriage counseling and says they want the marriage to work but are emotionally withdrawn, what can you do as the spouse? This. Elena, my guess is, is that. And this is total guess. I don't. I don't know the situation at all. So everything I say on these questions, you guys just know. This is. This is my best guess. Okay. Is that they, on one hand they probably do work, the want the marriage to work, but on the other hand they are living out their fantasy. You know how I said they usually have this fantasy of marriage, just get divorced, maybe just get an apartment. And so there's this other part that probably doesn't want it to work. Right. And. And you know how you can be in a relationship and sort of you want out, but you don't want to be the one to do it? I don't know if that's happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was happening because it's like, maybe on one hand he wants it to work, but on the other hand he wants to be free to do whatever he wants to do. So I would say is the person still engaging in the addiction, if that is still happening, then even whether or not they want it to work, whether or not it's going to work, probably not great. And it's really hard to get people who are living alone to get a handle on addiction because it's so tempting, because they have to like, have so much willpower all the time because there's nothing there to hold the gates back. So it's a. It's a tough one. Eliza says my daughter's dad and sister will be here on Saturday. How shall we approach the addicted daughter all together? Eliza, it sounds like you're trying to do like maybe a sort of like a small version or an impromptu version of like an intervention, which is like, like intervention like you see on the TV show. If you're. If your daughter is using to the point that it is imminently life threatening, it is out of control, non functioning, like super dangerous, then. Then do that. You guys can sit down and confront her together. If your daughter is in denial and doesn't feel like that she has an addiction, then I don't, I don't necessarily know that that approach is what you need to do. And what I mean is like this whole united, like, let's all sit down and confront this person. If you're gonna do that kind of intervention, then I would probably like, do it officially, like hire an interventionalist. Because when you see it on tv, it looks like we're just going to sit down and express our feelings and the person goes to treatment. But there's a lot more behind the scenes. Okay. If you're dealing with a person that's actually in denial, like they literally do not think they have a problem, then she's in denial. Then I would do more of the behind the scenes stuff. What I would do is instead of confronting her together is I would sort of maybe unite with these other people, have them watch some Amber videos. Maybe you can do the invisible intervention together, but get a united front on how we're going to get this person out of denial before you try to figure out how we're going to confront this person. Because it, it's just going to make this person feel defensive, angry, hurt, upset, like everyone's on against them. There is a time and place to do that. But if they're in denial, it's not, it's not usually going to get them out of now, it's usually just going to make them very defensive. Trustee says my loved one doesn't last long on his sobriety. He, at almost two weeks had been the same for eight months now. Stress, anxiety and arguments lead him to drink. Sometimes he drinks because he feels like it. What do I do? If your loved one, oh, here's more. Doesn't agree for inpatient treatment, is only okay with therapy and counseling, has lost his job over his drinking, is trying to get a new job but unsuccessful and is super stressful because of this, you may be in one of those patterns like I was talking to. I can't remember who it was, Christy that asked the question earlier about said their. Their prison had all these months and then they relapsed and it's like five days in and it was worse than ever. And I said, sometimes that's good. Because if your person is having these little lapses every two weeks in their mind, that's some form of managing it in their mind. It's like, well, I'm just having a cheat day. Like it was a diet every two weeks. And that's not. Yeah, I probably shouldn't be doing it, but it probably feels to some degree like it's being managed. And it's really hard to get people out of that. It's almost like, I hate to say it, but it's almost like you need this shit to hit the fan again on some level, you know, for them to say, you know what? It just doesn't work for me because when I drink or when I relapse, it just goes back to square one. If it's only happening a little every two weeks, they go further into denial. So if it happens again, don't try to get the brakes on it. Just let it spin for a minute because it's going to have to probably get a little worse before it gets better. If they're holding out two weeks, like I said, in their mind, it's probably something like, well, I messed up. It's like a cheat day. Instead of seeing that the unmanageability there. All right, guys, we are out of time for today. You guys are excellent. You asked wonderful, wonderful questions. Like I said, there are resources description. If you need to talk to Campbell, you need her to lawyer for your side. Or Kim, they are awesome. You can find out more about being in their coaching group or even if you need a private session with them. All that's in the description. I will see you guys next Thursday. We're live every Thursday at 1 Eastern Bye, everybody. You guys have a great weekend.