Setting Boundaries With Difficult Family Members (The Experts Guide!)

Welcome to our Thursday live. It is going to be all about boundaries. I know everyone's favorite topic, and we have an expert witness with us here, Scott Nunry, who's one of our family recovery coaches. He's got 2 sons currently in recovery. So he's been up and down the whole road a thousand times and struggled with boundaries and setting boundaries and all that kind of stuff. And he currently works with parents who are trying to guide their kid through this whole addiction recovery process. But the boundaries we're going to talk about today really are applicable across the board. It's about being a healthier version of yourself, living your best life, doing the better thing for yourself and the other person, whether that's your kid, your spouse, your coworkers, your nosy neighbor next door. Right. Absolutely. So Scott, I like what you said a while ago about the word no. Start us off with that.

One of the first small little boundaries that you can set is the word no. And no can be a complete sentence. You don't have to say no and then go into any kind of dissertation on why you said no. It's just being able to set that simple boundary early on if you're trying to practice baby steps. Is just to learn the word no.

Right. And I think it's kind of a boundary issue for the person who wants to overexplain.

Yeah.

Or what happens is like, I want to say no, but I want you to see my point of view on that. And I want you to agree with me and understand everything about why I said no. And so I just keep on at you. That's a boundary issue on your part, right? It's just like, now you're crossing there. You can't make them understand your no. You just need to know.

And, you know, if you can't say the word no, then it's okay to say, I don't know, but give me time to think about it. I think parents of addicted kids— I know with my— when my sons would approach me with things that, you know, can I have the car tonight to go out? And versus saying no, it's okay to say, you know what, let me talk, let me talk to your mom about it. Let me think about it. But sometimes we think we have to give a quick answer.

Yeah.

And a lot of times they force us into yes when we We didn't want to say it.

Well, a lot of times they'll say, I need an answer right now.

Right.

So what do you do when they say, I need an answer right now?

Well, again, being able to set that boundary of saying, I don't feel comfortable of saying yes at the moment. Give me some time to think about it. And certainly, they're not going to— that's not going to appease them probably. But you just got to be strong with that and say, give me some time to think about it.

Yeah. And I think I have heard people say, well, if I have to tell you right now, the answer is no.

Right.

So if I've got to make a decision this minute, then this is the answer. Yeah. So that kind of, I think, backs that off a little bit usually. Yeah. True. Yeah. Scott, tell us just a little bit about your story and maybe some of the big boundary decisions that you've had to make in your journey.

Yeah. So we've been dealing with it. My son's 27, the oldest that went through addiction starting at about 18. So we're about 10 years into him. He's, uh, luckily, uh, he's 2 and a half years sober, but we certainly went through 6 or 7 rough years. And then my stepson is 22, and he's been going through it pretty hard for about 4 years now. And he's 9 months sober, but still struggling with some, um, you know, things that are associated with addiction, such as deep depression, anxiety, and those types of things. But, um, you know, we had to set, uh, like most parents, uh, because I wanted to control it and fix it and keep them from going to jail and keep them from, you know, getting in trouble. I tried to control so many things, uh, tried to fix it and just tried to, uh, I guess, you know, keep them from getting in bad trouble with the law and work and school and everything else. But finally I started realizing that, you know, all the rules that I was setting— I thought I was setting boundaries early, but I was more setting rules.

Right.

And, you know, hey, if you don't come in by midnight, then you can't have the car for a week. If you If you do this, then I'll take the phone away. None of those work because they weren't boundaries, they were rules.

Right. So tell us, so for people who might be listening to that struggling with what's the difference? Because a lot, especially modern day, they want to call them not rules, boundaries, because they think it sounds better, but they're really rules like the ones they're doing. So what's the difference?

Well, boundaries, the way I've heard it a lot, it makes sense to me. Boundaries are I statements. So boundaries is what I'm setting that I'm going to decide in my life that I want to try to control. A rule is something I'm setting for somebody else and I have no control over them breaking that rule.

Right.

I might set consequences if they break that rule, but it's, it's a boundary is more about my actions and what I'm deciding to do for me.

Right.

And what I will accept, you know, in my life, what I will accept and not accept.

Yeah. I like to say it's okay to build a fence around your own backyard, but your neighbors really don't like it when you try to build a fence around their backyard. It's kind of out of bounds.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's a big difference, but you, as a parent going through this to start with, right? You don't know. You think you're doing the right thing. You set all these rules and you, because you think you're dealing with a reasonable thinking person.

Right.

And as we have come to learn, if your son or daughter is in addiction, there's absolutely no reason to that person's thinking whatsoever.

Right. You are in the upside down world, like Stranger Things all the way. Like, yeah.

Yeah.

Normal rules do not apply anymore. So, hey Debbie, and hey Sandy. Sandy wants to know, Scott, what do you think about using the word stop?

Well, you might have a better answer there than me, Amber, but in my opinion, you know, if that's not, that's not setting a boundary for you, right? I'm asking somebody to stop, but I'm still placing that action on them. They're either going to stop or they're not going to stop. I think more of a boundary would be explaining that I'm not going to accept this in my life versus asking somebody to stop doing something.

Right. So you can use the word stop, but for yourself, right? Correct. So it's like, I'm going to stop. You can say, stop being loud. You can't tell anyone to stop being loud, but you can remove yourself from the situation so you don't hear the loud. You can— the stop has to go towards you. You can control you, but not them. Correct. Yeah.

And you know, that's a good— I guess, uh, I was gonna mention a minute ago, I had to stop setting all those crazy rules.

Mm-hmm.

They weren't working. So I, I finally had to tell myself, hey, stop what you're doing because, you know, you're just doing the same old things. He's breaking the rules every time you set 'em and the consequences aren't having any kind of positive effect. One of the reasons we want to set boundaries is we want a healthier relationship. We want to improve our relationship between me and this other person that I'm setting the boundary with. And if your rules and even what you might be considering boundaries that you're setting aren't improving that relationship, you need to figure out how to shift and make a change.

Right. What do you think? What is the big roadblock for people setting boundaries? Why do people struggle with that?

I think a couple of things, but honestly, in my case and probably in a lot of other parents, is fear. Uh, you're, you're so afraid of, of the consequences of what's going to happen. Um, you know, you're afraid of getting— of your loved one getting arrested. Um, certainly, uh, if certain drugs are involved, uh, uh, you know, they could die. And so I think you're just afraid of the consequences if, if things don't go well. If I set a boundary And it causes them to go and hurt themselves or, or, or do something harmful, then you're, you're scared to death.

Right. And they— and you can get held hostage by that, right? Because absolutely. And then sometimes they'll flat out say, like, if, if you don't this, I'll this. And I call that emotional blackmail.

Sure. Oh, you know, my son told me on more than one occasion, hey, if you don't give me the car, then I'm going to go out and use even more. You know, you can't control me. Things, things like that, just threatening think things back. Because again, we're not talking about a rational person. We're talking about an irrational brain that the disease causes them to react these type of ways, and it scares us to death.

Right. And then, so like, let's say your son says, if you don't give me the car, I'm going to go out and use more. Or, you know, if you don't give me the car, I'm just gonna have my friend bring it here to me. Right. That sounds like a classic, right? What would you, what would you say in a situation like that?

Well, for a long time, I, uh, I probably would give in on occasion. And I know, you know, some parents may think, well, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard of. But when you're in the pressure of living with 2 addicted kids, um, you do a lot of things you never thought you would do.

Mm-hmm.

And so I've certainly given in to those boundaries and just thinking that, hey, okay, well, maybe, you know, if I just let him do this, maybe it'll be okay. Um, and then, you know, finally, after you learn by trial and error that that doesn't work either, Uh, finally you realize just you have to accept the fact of, hey, I'm just not going to accept, uh, you know, you, you reacting to me that way. I'm going to accept to pull myself out of that. Or, you know, eventually it may get to where you just say, I'm going to accept not to live in this.

Exactly. Yeah. And I think particularly if someone's doing some kind of an emotional blackmail, at that point, you have like If someone said something to me like that, I was going to give them the card, but they said that. At that point you can't because then not only are you just, it's not healthy boundaries, but you're training them to pull that. I call it the ace card every time. They know what your button is and then it gets to where they pull the ace card out every single time and you really get held hostage by it.

Yeah. And by then it's just way out of control as you could imagine.

Yeah. They're not even trying to pretend not to use it. No, they're just threatening it. You're way in there.

Exactly.

Gotcha. What are some of the harder boundaries that you've had to hold in the past?

Um, well, money, um, you know, that, that comes to the, to mind is that whether they're living with you or living, uh, you know, in another place is always asking for that $10, $30. Hey, I, you know, I need help this week. Um, and you think, okay, well, I know he's struggling. He only makes $13 an hour. Maybe I can help him a little more this week. But money, I think, was and has been and still is, uh, with my stepson. And, and, uh, he knows to go to his mom for that still to this day. And we struggle with that as a family, uh, trying to cut that out.

Mm-hmm.

So I think money, um, certainly, you know, and, you know, there's a difference between setting a boundary, uh, that's going to be— if you, if you break that boundary, that you're gonna, you're you're going to hurt that, uh, your child versus when they really need help. You know, if they— if their car breaks down and they've got a flat tire and they're stranded on the side of the road, if they call you, it's absolutely okay to go pick them up because you would do that for a friend, right? But if they call and tell you that, you know, hey, I need an oil change, and if I don't get my oil change, just my car's— you probably wouldn't pay for your friend's oil change.

Right. That's a good way to. That's a good way to. I like that. It's like, would you do that for a friend, or would that be weird for a friend? Would a friend even ask you to do that? You know, but I gotta tell you, Scott. My thought was when you said that if you've got an addicted kid, especially, and they're responsible enough to get their oil change, they're aware they need to get their oil change. I'm like, well, are they really addicted?

Well, I probably can't decide. I'm thinking that called and wanted his oil change.

You're right. Possibility.

True.

Tina says setting a boundary is one thing, but holding the boundary is the other thing, especially if they start begging, crying, pushing your buttons, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and I think that's, uh, you know, the, the unhealthy part of that is that don't ever set a boundary if you just, if you know you're gonna break it. And, uh, you know, I know, I know when we set them as parents, we think we're gonna hold to them, but there's some boundaries that I used to set that I knew If, if that— if the pressure came on and the crying started or the yelling started or the pleading started, I knew I would probably give in. Um, you know, that's obviously not healthy and, and actually just very harmful, uh, to trying to get them help, right?

I call that the big talk, right? You throw out the big— it's like a bluff almost.

Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, we found out with our 2 boys, the only time they ever reached out for help is when they were put in that corner and they had no other options because the disease just doesn't let them tap out and raise their hand and say, hey, I need help. Something has to force them into a certain situation to where they really have no options.

Right. It's got to get uncomfortable.

Exactly.

Yeah. Okay.

So I think if you can think, you know, as a parent, it's so hard because when we're set, even when we're setting boundaries for us, We, we still think in some way that's hurting them. And if you can shift your thought to say, the only way I'm going to help them is if I set these healthy boundaries and actually hold to them, then I'm actually— I know I'm helping them. And when you finally get that in your brain, that, you know, and so it makes it so much easier when the pleading starts and the crying starts and the yelling starts. If I know, if I hold that boundary, that it's going to help them, It helps me to hold that.

Right, right, right, right. I think too, one of the things I talk to families about is if you don't hold the boundaries, what's going to happen is you are going to become resentful, get angry, and then you're going to act bad like a psycho beast and you're crossing their boundaries and now you have a boundary issue, right? Because then you're controlling, nagging, threatening, saying, I did this for you, I did that for you. And now you're the one with the boundary problem, not them.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, some, some examples I can share there with you. You know, I would, uh, you know, how many of us have gone and, uh, when your kid goes to work and 10 minutes later you go to his work to see if his car is sitting outside the parking lot? Um, it would even get so bad that I actually did that a couple of times and he just had his car parked there. He actually wasn't inside working. So I would go maybe into the grocery store to see if he's actually in there working. Um, same thing with school, going by the school, taking them. I, I used to think if I actually took him and dropped him off at school, it ensured that he would go there. Well, he would walk in the front door, out the back door, and I mean, you know, so just you become crazy.

Yeah, it's like your whole life is wrapped up.

I would get up, uh, I think I've shared this story with you before, but I would get up at 6 in the morning And the first thing I would do is look at his phone bill. I would go on to Verizon, open up his phone bill, and you could see— I could see what time he was texting till. I would see who he last called at 3 in the morning. Was that his drug dealer? And that was my routine for probably a year, is to look at his phone bill for my first 30 minutes of my day. And that's how I started. It's crazy.

Yeah, that's a good way to— that's breakfast of champions, right?

Exactly.

That's a good way to have a bad day. Yeah. So it's like the way to start, like what you're saying is you got to set boundaries for yourself. Like, I'm not going to let myself turn into a resentful lunatic. I'm not going to let myself be consumed by all these things you're saying, like making sure you're doing this or doing that. So the first place to begin doesn't have anything to do with them. If you don't have control of you, Exactly. What are you doing trying to control them? You know what I mean? Get control of you.

Well, I find like a couple ones that I said, I think that are kind of simple, is that, you know, I am no longer gonna— I'm no longer gonna call in sick for you at work. If you lay out sick and don't go to work, I choose to not call and try to protect you from work. If you, um, you know, don't turn in your, uh, uh, Homework assignment, I'm not going to stay up until midnight the night before it's due. I'm going to choose not to do your homework for you. And these are all simple things, but I was so chaotic trying to control this thing that I did all those things. And finally I just said, I'm, I've got to stop. And it's not, it's not setting a rule that if you don't turn in your homework, you get your phone taken away. It's, I choose to not do your homework for you.

Exactly. Because then you're allowing the consequence. Exactly right. Rather than you trying to reward, punish, and all that kind of stuff. So what about if maybe if your kid is still in school, maybe they're young, uh, what do you do if they are just not getting up for school?

I think you let them sit there, you let them stay in, you know. And certainly, you know, let's say they're 13 or 14, I think as a parent, you— most parents would consider you to be a bad parent if you let your kids stay at home But after you've— after you've gone through it, you know, with addicted kids, you realize that, hey, there's nothing I can do about it. And if you stay out of school, there's consequences that the school will place on you, and, and I need to let you feel whatever those consequences are. And, uh, you know, after, after a few times, I think you'll start to realize that you probably don't need to stay out of school, but you gotta let them feel it, right?

Yeah, even with my son who's 9, We're trying to do homework and he's like, I don't want to do that. Or that's not true. I don't have to do that. And clearly I know they do. I'll say, okay, that's your homework. I don't care. Like, 9 years old, I don't care. Like if he gets a zero, he gets a zero, right? Like if you start out healthy understanding your lane, your side of the street versus their side of the street, even at a really young age, they'll like you better and you'll like them better. Everybody'll be happier. Yep.

And it's so helpful once you finally learn that with your addictive kid. and apply this to other parts of your life, it is so freeing and it is so much of a better, healthier feeling. Uh, you learn to have better relationships with your friends. You learn how to have better relationships with family members.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it really, once you kind of start to get the art of this thing and like you said, staying in your lane and setting some healthy boundaries and, you know, even at work, um, how many times do we have a boss that is overbearing and You know, asks way too much of you and you think you're, you know, you think it's, oh, I got a terrible boss and oh, I don't, but you're working 60 hours a week and it's taken away from the rest of your life. Is if you can set that healthy boundary, it, so it helps in a lot of different areas of your life, not just through addiction, but certainly it's critical for addiction because your loved one's never going to get better until you start having healthy boundaries.

Right. I think, I think most of it is just making the decision that you're not going to participate in the chaos. Yeah, right. That if you just want to break it down to like the simplest terms, you know, it's not you're not going to do this anymore. You're not, you know, you're not gonna— it's I'm not gonna participate in the chaos. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, um, I, I'm a parent coordinator at a rehab, uh, right outside of Lawrenceville, uh, where, where Zach went. And, um, one of the big things we have, uh, coming through there is parents, uh, not being able to set boundaries with, uh, with the law. Uh, you know, hey, your kid just got a DUI. What do you do? Um, I had a mom call me last Saturday and her son had gotten arrested for the 3rd time for a DUI. And she says, I know what you're going to tell me, I shouldn't go get him, but should I go get him? I'm like, no, you should not go get him. So she called back the next day. She was so excited that she waited 8 hours before she went to get him.

You gotta start somewhere.

You know, you might consider that a small success, but, uh, you know, you wonder why he's got 3 DUIs, because you're going to get him every time he has a DUI and things like that. But it's so hard when, when, uh, you know, the, the law— and, and you think they're, oh, if he gets a felon, how's he ever gonna, you know, how is he ever gonna get his life back together? They certainly get their lives back together even with felonies and all that. If, if that's— if they want to get their lives together, they certainly can.

But Right.

That, that fear cripples us. But the law, I think, is, is a hard boundary to set.

Right. Another one to me, I think, is guilt. People feel like they let guilt hold them hostage. Sure. About things.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes it's like, well, I feel guilty because, you know, me and their dad divorced and that had this bad impact on them. And then you get held hostage by the guilt, you know?

Well, it certainly hits home for me. Yeah. I divorced, uh, when Zach was 10 and, and I feel— I felt so guilty between 10 and 18 especially. And then when his addiction started coming on, I thought I caused it. And because of the divorce and all that. So certainly guilt.

Yeah. All right. I'm going to take some questions here in just a second, everybody. So go ahead and put them in the chat and we're going to go back through them. And if you guys got questions for Scott, we'll be happy to answer them. In the meantime, there's a couple of questions I have for you left while they're putting their questions up there, Scott.

Yeah.

One is you were mentioning just a little bit ago about parents calling you the parents of the boys that are in the sober living facility. And tell us about that kind of boundary. It's almost like vicarious. They're trying to have bad boundaries vicarious through you. That's what I call it, vicarious codependency.

Well, yeah, I think I shared earlier that, uh, you know, at this facility, uh, in the first 30 days they don't have their phone. I think in the first 60 to 90 days they normally don't have a car. And, uh, you know, these are, are the boundaries of the facility. But it's funny, um, in the first couple of weeks they'll get a call from their son that says, hey, I can't live without my phone. This is— this place sucks. If you don't get me out of here, if you don't get my phone back, I'm leaving. So The first thing a parent would do is call me and say, hey, you know, I know you guys have this rule, but you have this boundary with the phone, but, you know, my kid's so special because he's really tied to his phone. Um, do you think it'd be okay? Just, I think it'd be all right if he just gets his phone. And they, they do, they ask you, um, you know, through, through me, will I help break the boundary to get there? And it's all about fear, right?

Yeah.

They're afraid they're going to leave the rehab. And so we get asked to break those boundaries. Most, you know, the majority of the people that come through there certainly have requested that over the first month.

Right. So it's like somebody's finally holding a boundary with them, which is what the family members wanted all along, right? They want to, they want their loved one to respect people's boundaries and you're trying to teach 'em that, right? This is the first time ever. And then they're coming in and they're trying to undo it. It's like, You better be scared that your kid's going to come out there and still be the same. The phone is the drug dealer, so they shouldn't have it because the phone is the drug dealer. But even if you take that off the table, it's about learning to respect a boundary.

Exactly.

The fact that a rule or whatever applies to them and they have to follow it even if they don't agree with it. That's a recovery lesson.

Exactly. And another boundary, Amber, is that they'll say, well, he calls me every day. And we say, well, it is okay not to answer. Okay, if they want you to make them stop calling every day. Yeah, if there's a problem, you know, it's like, well, I tell him to stop calling. What, you know, again, that, that you're asking them to do that and you have no control over them calling you, but you certainly have the freedom and you can set the boundary that says I'm not going to take his call today because I know it's going to be chaos. I know it's going to be begging me for this, that, and the other. And, you know, we can set that boundary is I, you know, I, I don't need that in my life because it just It ramps up my anxiety. It ruins my day. And you put 'em in that rehab for us to help 'em, and it's okay for you to take a break and not take that phone call.

Right. And if something big's really going down, I will let you see my number coming up.

You'll see my number and answer my phone.

You need to know it. You'll see my number.

Exactly.

If it's not that, you're going to be all right. Yeah. It's almost just trusting the process. It's this thing you want for them so bad, but you've got to let it happen too.

You did.

Gotta let it happen.

Exactly.

Now the other last question I have for you, Scott, was about, you were also talking to me about sort of the ultimate last boundary, but it's really, I honestly wouldn't even call it a boundary. I would call it drawing a line in the sand on purpose. Yeah. To let them sort of, I call it hang themselves. Not literally, obviously, but it's kind of like instead of saying, I'm kicking you out. You, you find some boundary that you know they're not going to stick with, whatever that is.

Yeah.

So that when they out themselves, that was on them.

That's right.

Give us some examples of that because you were talking about you've had to do that before.

Yeah, we had to do it with both boys eventually. You know, when we got so sick and tired of being sick and tired and nothing seemed to work, we finally just decided because of safety, honestly, is that we didn't want to live this way anymore. And, and for us to be safe, because we had, uh, you know, another— we had a daughter in the house and, uh, who was, you know, 16, 17 at the time. And, uh, even for our adult safety, we just didn't want to live in that drug chaos, chaotic world. And so we finally just set a boundary that said, hey, we just choose not to live, um, with drugs in the house and, and with drug dealings going on through the mailbox and certain things. And that, um, You know, if we see more evidence of this, then we're just going to choose for, for you not to live here, and that we, we don't want to live with you here anymore. And so eventually I had to go sign papers at the courthouse and, uh, evict both our boys.

Wow.

And that is the last— of course, the last resort. But, you know, for safety reasons and so forth, that, uh, when you finally— you'll know when you're to that point.

But the point is, is don't set one of those thinking they're going to follow it. When you draw that line in the sand, you're drawing it knowing they're going to cross it. And what you're trying to do is make them have to be responsible instead of, it's like, why are you doing this to me? I didn't even do anything. It's kind of like, okay, it's their choice at that point, whether they want to step up to that plate or not. But so many parents say, If this, then that, thinking that that's going to make the person be like, oh, I better not. Okay, I'm gonna stop doing that. Like, in what universe? Never ever seen it happen in my whole career. Nope.

And I had learned through so many mistakes of trying to take the car away and taking the phone away and realizing that they broke those over and over again that, um, once we finally set the boundary on the house, I was ready to uphold it. And, you know, it didn't take but a couple of days after setting that boundary that they broke it. And then I just followed through with the process and Evicted both of them. Yeah.

Yeah.

At 2 different points, but I had to go through that process twice.

Not both at once. Twice. Okay. So I think too, how you say that boundary is probably important. If you're yelling and screaming, then you are not practicing good boundaries.

Absolutely.

You're out of bounds when you're doing that. So it has to be calm, well thought out. So never communicate one of these things unless you're in a solid place. You've really thought it through. You've really come to terms with what you're going to have to do when they don't do it. Yep. And you're ready. Don't impulsively in an argument throw something out.

Yeah, I think, you know, we, we talk about that language of addiction. So you certainly, you, you've got to learn that language as a parent, that it is— you, you're, you're telling that from a loving, uh, you know, a feeling. You're telling them that, uh, really through love, and that there absolutely is no emotion to it. There's no threatening. It's just, hey, we've decided not to live this way. And very calm. And, you know, can be actually a short discussion. It doesn't have to be this big, long, drawn-out argument. It's, it's very calm and just a statement.

And, and then, and a lot of times I'll say then, like, walk out of the room.

Correct.

Because they're going to want to keep that conversation going. And the longer that conversation goes, the more likely it's going to start going bad, getting loud, turning into an argument. Yep. It needs to be, is leave it on the coffee table, like short and sweet, and then leave the room. Don't say, I don't want to talk about this anymore.

Yep.

Leave the room. Like, if you're still in there engaging in it, then you're gonna— they're gonna push your buttons till you lose it, basically.

Drop, drop the mic. Yeah.

Yeah. Mic drop. There you go. I love it. All right, I'm gonna go through some of these questions and comments here right quick. Oh, we got a lot, Scott. Gonna take me a second. All right, here we go. I think we did this one. Hold on. Sorry, I'm not good at this multitasking.

I'm glad you're doing it, not me.

All right, Kathy says, if you have an addicted child who won't get help, who doesn't live with you, Is it best to block them because of all the drama she's pulling me into? I have a hard time because she does know how to push my buttons. She calls and calls and calls all the time. I don't know what to do.

Yeah, that's a great question, Kathy. And I think you're exactly right. You know, when they don't live with you and they're an adult child, and you certainly can't make them to go to rehab, but you can choose what you will accept in your life, right? So if those calls— and we have that still occasionally with my stepson, Uh, calling and causing the drama and the chaos. And, uh, I would encourage you to set those boundaries and have that conversation with her that, hey, if you call and it's all about drama and all about these things, I'm going to choose not to continue the conversation.

Mm-hmm.

You want to call and let's talk about the weather. If you want to talk about how I'm doing, uh, you know, if you want to talk about the dog, I, I'd love to talk to you. But if it's going to be about, you know, the chaos and about all the things that are going on Due to your addiction, then I choose not to discuss those.

Right. Yeah. You can set a boundary for yourself that Wednesdays at 2:30 to 3:30, you're usually available. That's a good time to call me. Love to talk to you. Right. So you're not even saying I'm not going to talk to you. You're saying I'm available during this time. That's a you boundary, right? Yep. Which is different than stop calling me with all that drama. Yep. It's different. It's a you thing. It's an I statement. Yeah.

Well, we had to— with Cameron, he's good at texting at 2 in the morning because he's up, he's wired up, and he may text at 2 in the morning because he does it at work.

Mm-hmm.

We have to get up at 5:30 in the morning to go to work. So, we set the boundary is we're going to turn off our notifications. If you text me at 2 in the morning, it's not going to go off. I'm not going to respond to you at 2 in the morning. Um, I'll respond to you when it's convenient for me, but, you know, don't text me at— or again, I— you can text me at 2 in the morning, but I'm not going to get it. And I just want to let you know I'm not going to get it. But yeah, we certainly had to set that boundary because it was—

Yeah, I answer texts between this and this. Here's the— here's the store hours right here. Like, these are the hours I answer texts, sort of. And if you— let's say if you're laying there, one way to do it is just if you're laying there and you see the text Maybe you're up, doesn't even matter. Maybe you're up and you're in the mood to talk, but if you see a text at 2 o'clock in the morning, I don't care if you do want to talk, do not do it because you've just trained them that they can text you at 2 o'clock in the morning.

Absolutely.

Right?

Yep.

Yeah. So you can just train people. You don't even have to really say it all the time. You can just train people. And if they always text you in the middle of the night but you never answer until 9, they'll figure that out.

Yeah.

Yeah. Let's see. Sandy's got one. Let's see. As I see it on both ends, the keyword is acceptance, for which I'm practicing with acceptance and unhealthy behavior for quality of life on both parts. Am I on the right path? Correct path? Wow.

You might have to help me here, Amber. Sandy, I'm not sure about that. I do think when you say acceptance, I'm not exactly sure what Sandy might mean by that.

Is that kind of mean? I think maybe it just means sort of let go, accept, almost kind of like a hand it over in a recovery language kind of be, maybe like accept the natural, like let the universe do it. That's the way I took it, Sandy. If that's not the way you meant it, pop that up there in the chat or comments so we can answer your question more effectively.

Well, and I do think once you accept the fact that they do have this disease, it certainly helps you to start You know, uh, learn— learn— you learn more about it. That's what I had to do. I had to go learn about addiction because I didn't accept it for so long. I tried to, um, I tried to deny it. Um, I tried to think that it was a phase that they were going through, and I had a hard time accepting it. So certainly I do think that's, you know, probably the first step as a parent for you to start being able to go get help and learn how to deal with this. And, and then certainly it's not only boundaries, but you learn all kind of other ways to deal with, with addiction. But, uh, Yeah.

I like that you said that because it's about you getting help. And a lot of times family members have this thought. The thought is this, especially if it's a— especially if it's a spouse. The thought is, you're the one with the dang on problem. Why do I gotta get help? And you know what? I can respect and appreciate the thought because I can promise you I would have the same exact thought. However, you're wrong. Yeah. They don't feel like they have a problem. Their life is good. You feel like you have a problem, which is exactly right. So you are the one that should be seeking the help first. You gotta really get your head around it.

Exactly. There was a good quote in that book on boundaries that I'm reading, and it said, uh, you know, uh, uh, irresponsible— an addict is, uh, is irresponsible and happy. A parent is normally responsible and angry.

Yeah.

We try to take— we try to, uh, deflect all those natural consequences, and it makes us so resentful, so angry. Uh, but you're right. I, I used to talk about all the time how our kid, you know, our 2 boys, that we needed to get them fixed and all— how everything was wrong with them until I finally started learning more about it. Certainly learned that I had a role in it, uh, because I'm a family member. This is a family disease. And I had a role in that family and I had to figure out how to go get help for me. And so that if I could improve me and improve what, you know, how I contributed to the family, I certainly could start helping it versus adding to the problem.

Right. Because I think when, what you find at Hope for Families is that someone's chances of getting better and beating addiction is a whole lot more connected To what their family does and how, whether the family gets it or not and whether the family's willing to do the work way much more so than if the person, you know, I know everyone out there is like, they have to want it and they have to hit the bottom and they have to be willing to do whatever and humility and crawl across the desert naked or whatever. The problem with that thinking is that they will get to that point and it'll last 10 minutes. And in 15 minutes, what are you going to do? Because that comes and goes. That's why that doesn't work, right? Yep. If the family gets it, and I'm sure you've seen this at Hope for Families, we say this all the time, once your family starts coming to see us, your career is over.

Game over.

Right, right. And we're finding that even the people that are in our invisible intervention, like, things are turning around really fast. And it's when you decide you're going to get some help, you'll be amazed how fast things start to shift.

Exactly.

Let's see here. I just got completely lost. My son's ordering drugs off the dark web delivered to our mailbox. He just got out of jail yesterday. All ready to go to rehab and make a life. I let him use my phone for music, got my phone back, and he's planning big drug deals already. I've done absolutely everything I know to do— rehab, kicked him out, psych care, counseling, bipolar, PTSD. He's always got me with the guilt. His older brother died because of drugs. He has no insurance, no good care. And you're right. Tell us what you think about that, Scott.

You know, that's tough. My heart goes out to you already having lost a child, and that, that's That's tough. Um, so certainly heart goes out to you. Um, you know, I, I think just in, in her Senate, you know, in her writing there, um, I, I think, you know, you probably know what you have to do is to set that back. You've tried everything. Um, I had a similar experience where we were coming home from Christmas one year and he borrowed my phone in the back seat, supposedly wanting to listen to music or something. And you get the phone back later, they thought they had deleted the text, but He was setting up drug deals for us to come back for a family function. So I certainly can relate. But, you know, I think again, there you just have to set a boundary that protects you as a parent. Um, certainly probably not safe with them conducting drug deals there within your house and on your phone and such things as that. But I think you have to— I think you just have to take a deep breath and figure out what's safe for you and how you need to protect you. You can't, you can't force your loved one to do anything. You can't force him to treatment, as you have already tried. Um, I think you got to protect you in, in whatever— I don't know what that is because I don't know your circumstances, but certainly I think that's the utmost importance today, is to say, hey, what, what do I need to do to protect myself?

Right. Let's see, Jenny says, what about if they will not work or go to school or college and they have people giving them money behind your back?

Yeah, we, uh, we certainly went through that with, with grandparents, uh, with other family members thinking that, uh, you know, they were helping. And, and certainly are hurting. And, and, uh, you know, that's when we talk about this being a family disease. That's part of it, right, is that if, if there's somebody in the family that's kind of going behind and circumventing, uh, the whole process, um, it's, it's tough.

Right.

And, and they don't, they don't learn the lesson. So if at all possible— I know my mom was a big, uh, enabler, and, and Zach went and lived with her for a while after I kicked him out, and she thought she was helping. And then, you know, about 6 months into it She started coming to Hope for Families. She started learning about the disease and the family aspect of it. And only till then did things start to get better because she finally quit enabling and learned how she was actually contributing to the problem.

But that's tough.

If they're getting money from other family members, if you could try to get those family members to go to an Al-Anon meeting or, you know, Hope for Families or that kind of thing, it It'll help them.

But I think ultimately that's out. Ultimately, Jenna, you got to realize that that's not on your side of the street. That's right. In either which way, that is not on your side of the street. We actually have a video coming out in the next few weeks about what to do if somebody, if there's like another adult enabling your loved one, which there's always a line, whether it's a friend, a family member, something. We've got a video about that coming out, but The big deal is, is you need to realize that's not your territory. If Grandma thinks that she knows better, just like, just like Scott did, let him go stay with Grandma because Grandma's gonna— she's gonna figure it out real quick once it's in, once it's in her house and she gets the front row seat. So sometimes the best thing I do is just let it, let it backfire on them.

Let it play out. Yeah. Until she came face to face with his drug dealer in a bad situation, did she finally— that's when she finally learned. But yeah.

I'm giggling because when your son was with us, he calls her Nanny, and they told us so many Nanny stories. And literally, oh my God, they're so funny. But Nanny is something, boy. She went— she would go fight these drug dealers.

Yeah, she would be pretty tough.

Gangster drug dealers. Nanny would just be not taking it. Cracks me up. Like, you did what? Yeah. Oh, she, she wasn't having it. That's funny now, by the way. Yeah. Not a good boundary. Not advocating it. Just saying it's kind of funny.

Kind of funny.

Yeah. Okay. Let's see if we got any more questions. Jenny says, is it okay to set healthy boundaries when they are calling you from detox or mental facility via sectioning and continue to blame and say awful things that are totally false? I think you might've wrote that before we answered that, but yeah, just don't answer the call or say you answer it between You know, 10 to 2, whatever. Yeah.

And, and, you know, hey, if you want to talk about, you know, us and, and the dog and the weather and all that, I'll, I'll talk to you. But just set that boundary that we're, you know, we're not going to talk about how I'm going to get you out of the rehab. I'm not going to talk about how you're going to get out of detox. We, we can talk about other things, but if it's that, we— I just want to answer.

Right. Because they're calling you telling you how awful the staff is or the other clients are because they're splitting. And if you'll just take 2 minutes and remember every time they told other people the bad stuff about you, trying to get other people to rescue them from you, then you'd be like, oh yeah, that's splitting. Not doing that. Exactly.

Oh, we, we have, uh, we'll have parents calling and saying, uh, my son called and said he's bored to death up there. And I'll go, well, that's interesting because they've been on a 3-day hiking trip, jumping off cliffs and skydiving and all these other things. And it's And they say their kids calling and saying how bored they are. So you're right.

It's— And then when they tell that to me, I say, you know what? That's good. Because one important recovery thing is learn how to deal with boredom. So that's good. Stop trying to control it. Like boredom, sometimes you're going to get bored and you got to learn how to deal with that. So even if they are bored, that's good. Be glad about it. See what Ashley says. What happens when my husband calls needing help getting home? I say no because I know he's— what he's been doing out there, and then something bad happens, and I know I'll blame myself for not helping.

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think, uh, again, you know, you're setting the boundary what, what you'll do and not do. But I, I would, I would set the boundary and say, I'm not going to come get you if you call me from a bar drunk at 12 o'clock at night. I'm not coming to get you. And, you know, that's your boundary, and you, you know, you can decide to do that. Now, if he chooses to go get drunk And he calls you at 12 o'clock, then, you know, you can either choose not to answer or just say the word no. But, uh, certainly, you know, you didn't cause him to go get drunk, and you wouldn't cause him to leave there and get hurt or hurt somebody. I know that's fearful. I used to fear all the time, uh, more about Zach hurting somebody else. And I've got numerous stories where I knew he was out drinking, and, uh, you know, I called the law on him more than once trying to get the police to arrest him before he could actually hurt somebody.

Right.

That's tough.

Um, but certainly, if it's not something you can live with, Ashley, and you want to keep doing it, then do it. If you can't live with that, but it's, it's also okay. And you can also say, you know what, give me your phone, let me download you the Uber app. Yeah, I'm gonna put it right here, your information's in there.

Exactly.

You know, like, there's just a lot of ways to deal with it.

Yeah, well, I think that's a great point, Amber, is that, you know, we, we as parents, uh, we can, we can try to guide on what works for us and works for others, but at the end of the day, you're the one that's got to lay down and sleep at night. So if you're not ready to set those boundaries yet, um, you know, go get it until you're finally sick and tired of being sick and tired, and, and then maybe you might decide that. But I know as parents, it— I went to meetings probably for a year before I really started, uh, practicing a lot of what I was learning because I just wasn't ready yet.

Right. Now I say, you know, it's better to not set a boundary than to set one and not be ready to keep it.

Exactly.

So parents sometimes ask me, is it okay to keep paying for their cell phone? Maybe the kid's out on the street and I say, you know what helps you sleep at night? That's what you're doing for you. So that counts. That's a boundary. I don't care. Pay for the cell phone because it's helping you sleep, knowing that they could call you. Exactly. So it's not that you can't do any of these things, it's just that you can stop doing them when you don't want to anymore. We are running out of time. You guys have been awesome. There's so many more questions on here and we will try to go back through those and answer some of them we didn't get to, but If you are struggling with this and you would like to talk to Scott yourself, I'm going to put the link up for you guys on how you can get like a consult appointment with Scott if you want to. And if you go to this link too, you can hear Scott tell his whole story. And once you hear him tell his whole story, you're going to know he's done been there and back. Thanks everybody for hanging out and we'll see you next Thursday at 1. Bye.

Thanks, guys.

Bye, everybody.

Have a great day.