Setting Expectations and Boundaries During The Holidays- (Without Being A Jerk!)

Foreign, if you've ever noticed this before. But addiction has a tendency to pretty much destroy holidays and any special event, really. If there's going to be lots of people involved and there's going to be drinking and other things happening and family stresses, then you can almost count on addiction blowing the situation up. Like, at the very worst moment possible. The worst thing happens. If you've experienced that, and you don't want to experience that this year because the holidays are coming, then you're in the right place. And I have two special expert witnesses here that are going to help us think through how to set appropriate boundaries and expectations for getting through these holiday situations, which are sometimes stressful without being a jerk, but also sort of like protecting yourself and the rest of the family members at the same time. Some of you may remember Dana. Dana was with us once before on one of our videos. And Dana is an interventionist, like the kind like you see on tv, like a real interventionist who goes right in the middle of the situation and deals with the whole family all at once, which I think is pretty brave, honestly. And Dana is also. She has been married to someone with a substance abuse problem. So she's going to help us from the family perspective because she understands it professionally and personally from the family side. And Molly, who is new to us, we're so glad you're here. Welcome. Molly is going to help us understand things from a person who has struggled with an addiction in her past. And so she's going to help us understand it through the lens of someone who's in. In active addiction, and also through the lens of someone who's in early recovery, because each one of those brings a different set of dynamics when it comes to dealing with family functions, holiday events, you know, work parties, all that kind of stuff that you're likely to be running into over the next couple of months. Welcome, you guys. So glad you're here.

Thank you, Amber. It's so great to be back.

All right, so we have a lot of information for you guys. So I want to dig in there so we can make the most of our time with Molly and Dana. And we kind of put it into four subcategories for you. So here's what we're going to be covering. We're going to talk about things from the addictive person's perspective as far as managing. From their perspective, as far as managing the holidays. You know, what's it like going in when you have active addiction? And also what's it like going in or choosing not to go into those situations when you're in early recovery. And then we're going to do both of those sections from the family member perspective. If we have enough time, then we will do what we've been doing, which is allow one of our viewers to come on here live and you can ask questions. And today you're really lucky because you have like a whole panel of people. So you're probably going to get more, going to be enough. So we will do that near the end. But if you want to come on with us, go ahead and put a number in the chat from 1 to 100. And when we get to that point, we will take our random number picker and we will pick someone. But remember, you'll need a decent Internet connection, a decent light source. And remember that this is live and public, so don't talk about anything you don't want out there. Alrighty. All right, let's get into Molly. Hello. Hello. Can you tell us a little about just about yourself and so we know where you're coming from and what your experience is?

Yeah.

So I'm a single mom and I have been sober since September of 2019. My drug of choice was alcohol, but I also have plenty of experience with substances as well. I was a heavy alcohol drinker for the majority of my life. And a lot of those late night partying ended up with, you know, some. Some drugs here and there. So I definitely have experience with that as well as the sobriety side.

Okay, and so when. So if we start from thinking back to your, yourself before you got sober, looking at going to holidays and family functions, first of all, what did you think about those events when you were thinking about, okay, I gotta go to Thanksgiving or Christmas. Were you excited? Did you dread it? Did you ha. Were you like, woohoo, Uncle Charlie's gonna get there and we'll get drunk? Like, what? What did you think?

Yeah.

So my parents divorced when I was young, so family events are always two separate families. My dad's side of the family, they don't drink at all. So for me, it was a very high anxiety type of situation because I wanted to drink before I got there and then just, you know, make face and then get out of there so I could get back home and get back to my drinking. And then my mom's side of the family, they're all drinkers. So it was like a big party. Everybody was drinking. We were playing drinking games or, you know, minute to win it, like, super fun activities, things like that. So it was like two completely separate sides of the ball for me, that's.

Actually lucky for us, because now you can speak from both of those perspectives. Okay, I like that. So it sounds like when it came to going to things on your dad's side, it was sort of like, I just have to tolerate this. I just have to get through this. Kind of like a chore, a responsibility. I gotta be a good daughter. You gotta show up. But you would drink before because you knew there wouldn't be any drinking there.

That or I couldn't drink. Like, I really wanted to drink.

Right. Did you ever. Lots of judgment, like, snake drink. Because a lot of clients I see, they. They have, like, the mini bottles, you know, they're stashed everywhere, you know, and.

No, I really didn't do that. For the last several years of going to my dad's for the holidays, I lived really nearby. So it was like down the last beer and then drive over, and then it was like, literally five minutes away. So it wasn't. It wasn't very far away from me.

You didn't have to do that. Okay, I got you.

Yeah, yeah.

Was there ever a time, in any event, your dad, your mom, or anybody where other people recognize that you had a drinking problem and asked you not to drink or didn't invite you? Was there ever any of that sort of awkward uncomfortableness around the issue?

No. Honestly, nobody ever said anything to me, ever, about my drinking. And I feel like that's probably. That was probably a bad thing. You know, I feel like it's kind of a taboo topic. People don't want to talk about it. So maybe they were intimidated or afraid to bring it up.

Do you think they. They just were afraid to bring it up or did they not realize that there was a problem or both?

I don't know. Maybe they didn't realize it. I mean, I feel like I was pretty good at hiding it, because when I did finally come out and say, you know, I'm living a sober life now, people are like, oh, wow, I didn't even know you really had a problem. So maybe I just hit it really well, but I was completely oblivious to it. It wasn't like a. A thoughtful process for me.

Okay, that makes sense. Did you ever not go to family or work or any kind of event that there wasn't gonna be drinking? Specifically because there wasn't going to be drinking? Like, just. I'm just not interested.

Oh, yeah. I made up an excuse one year not to go to Christmas. My grandma had just passed away, and I was really close to her, so I Wasn't. I didn't really want to be around anybody, and so I used that as an excuse and stayed home and drank all day long.

Okay. Was there ever a situation where you're drinking, got too much or something bad happened at a holiday event or any kind of situation like that?

Oh, yeah, lots. Especially, like work events because there was always like a work Christmas party. One year, it was somebody that I was working with, they were celebrating, like 25 years of being at the office and I had just bought a brand new SUV and drank a shitload at the party at the bar and totaled my car. Like, blacked out, remember, the whole way home and woke up in the middle of a median. Just totaled my car. I mean, like, I should totally be dead so many times over, it's not even funny.

Was anyone else aware that you were drinking too much or just you looking back on it, like. Like, was it obvious to other people or not so much?

I mean, definitely my husband at the time was well aware of it. I mean, he was drinking just as much as I was. I think my mom, she had suspicions and she's told me since then that, yeah, I think you were definitely drinking too much. And there were some times where just so drunk and obliterate, you know, just crazy and like crying, you know, the cry vest. So she would. She would say something then, like, I think you're drinking too much. But it was never really too much of a serious conversation, I don't think.

Just almost like a hint, A hint at it or something.

Just barely. Right.

Fairly little mention the seed was there. Yeah. What do you think? I mean, obviously you can't know because it never happened, but just guessing, how would you have responded? Should someone have said, like, you know, we're having Thanksgiving, Aunt Sally's this year, but we want you to come, but we don't want you to drink because that's what a lot. That's a boundary that a lot of family members are thinking about setting with their person who's struggling. How would you have taken that? How would you have reacted? Like, just looking back on your old self?

What do you.

What do you think about that?

I think knowing ahead of time that it wouldn't have been tolerated, I would have stayed with the same pattern of drinking. As much as I felt like I could still function and not come across as really drunk and then go, anyways, now I don't know if I would have taken something with me maybe. But yeah, I would have definitely drank beforehand.

You wouldn't have shown up sober if you showed up is what you're saying. You would have found a loophole in the.

Yep.

Would you have been super crazy offended? Probably. I would imagine. I don't know how.

Probably.

I don't know how you would take that otherwise. Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, absolutely.

So. So then knowing that, do you think it's a good idea or appropriate or the right thing to do for a family member to set that boundary with a loved one about, we want you to come, we want you to be there, but don't show up higher. Intoxicated.

Yeah. I actually experienced this last year. There was a family member that I just didn't want to be around because I have been sober, and I know that when they're not drinking, it's really awkward. Like, they're the fun guy who's drunk, you know? And when they're not, it's just, like, super awkward. So I. It wasn't the most adult thing to do, but I, in a roundabout way, didn't invite them.

Okay.

The celebration.

Yeah.

So you just sort of didn't invite them. And it sounds like this is a relative, but not like an immediate relative, like a parent, a child, a sibling.

It's a sibling.

It's a sibling. Okay. Because the closer the person is, the harder that would be to pull off, to kind of, you know. Yeah. Okay. Did that cause drama in your family?

I know my mom was really upset about it, but again, I feel like unless you have experienced it and lived through it, you don't quite understand how difficult that is to be around people that are actively drinking when you're in sobriety.

Okay.

It's hard.

Okay. And so what I think is partially interesting about what you said, Molly, is that even if. If someone would have said, we want you to come, but we don't want you to drink, my guess is you either wouldn't have went because you're offended, or if you did go like you said, you would find a loophole. Like, you would just drink a lot beforehand. So. So the point is, when the family member says that, it's like, we don't want you to be intoxicated at the event, but the likelihood that a person in active addiction is going to come to the event and not be intoxicated, like, what you think? Just give it a guess, like a. Like a percentage or something really low. Okay.

Like 5%.

Okay. So what you're saying is if you're. If you know an addicted person, inactive addiction is coming, they are going to be intoxicated on something almost for sure.

Almost for sure.

Yeah. And if they're not, then what?

If they're not, then just treat them like a normal person. You know, don't make a big deal about it. And, like, don't even bring it up. You know, don't even talk about, like, oh, I'm proud of you for not drinking or whatever. Just treat them like a normal person. Have regular conversation, do. Do regular things.

Okay.

Don't make it awkward.

So let's move into, then a person in early recovery going into those situations. What's it like? What are you thinking? What are your concerns, your fears going into a situation like that? Yeah.

So I host Christmas at my house, or I have many years, and like I said, it was always a big party with my family, lots of drinking. So the first year in early sobriety, it was like two and a half, three months over for me, and I was. I was a nervous wreck. Luckily, we decided, okay, I'm not gonna cook. So we did the whole Chipotle takeout thing, which alleviated some stress for me, because that's a big stressor. But nor the regular people were there. And it was. The mood was just completely different. It was awkward. You could tell, like, my brothers were kind of, like, off in a corner on their phone, you know, like, bored. So. And it was probably more in my head that people weren't having a good time. But it. I just felt like I should have said something, you know, like, it's okay if you want to have a couple beers or we're not drinking, because there was no expectation set. And I feel like that is what caused the most stress and confusion because.

It was like the purple elephant in the room. It was like no one knew what the appropriate etiquette was. No one knew. Okay or not.

Okay.

So you. Looking back, you wish you would have just put the rules out there. If you had done it, what. What would you have said? Would you have said, it's okay to have a few, or would you have said, I'd really, you know, rather not?

I think I probably would have allowed it just because I was so new to it and naive about how I would have felt once they started drinking around me. Because looking back, and I have been around it with much more sobriety under my belt. It is uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it, and I don't want it in my house. But I probably would have said, yeah, bring it. It's fine. Let's go get some.

Okay. But, like, if. If you're doing it this year, you wouldn't. You you would say we're not going to do that.

I mean, they, yeah, they know that it's not okay now.

Yeah, I know you said it's at your house and you didn't bring it up. How would you have felt if someone else brought it up and just asked you, hey, we know you're sober now. Like, is this cool or not cool? You know what if they would have asked you.

If they could drink.

Right now?

I feel more comfortable with it. I feel a lot more confident. Anybody? That's an early sobriety. It's, it's really hard. Like, don't tempt it. Don't even, like, don't. I would say don't talk about it. You know, like, oh yeah, me and the guys, like, if it's your cousin, he's over there telling a story about how him, his friends went and got shit faced last week. Like, probably not a topic you want to talk about.

Right?

Like, and we call that like war story. Telling the war stories or whatever. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay, so when you say don't talk about it, it's more like don't be bragging about it. Don't be war storying about it because that's the trigger for people.

Yeah.

Okay. But then also you also said don't be weird about it and awkward about it either.

Right.

So I know it's kind of like a double standard, but I mean, surely there's other things to talk about than you going to get trash with your friends last weekend.

Yeah.

I mean, be creative.

Okay. Okay. If. If somebody's watching this and their loved one is an early recovery, do you suggest that they ask that person what their preference is or do you suggest that they just make a decision and say this is a non drinking event because we're supporting Molly or whoever the person is?

I mean, I feel like both choices are more than ideal. Getting their opinion and if their opinion is, I don't want it around and honoring that, or on the flip side, just taking the stance because maybe they are uncomfortable or they're not confident enough to even bring it up. You know, I don't want to be around drinking. Or they're not sure if they want to be around drinking and just say, look, hey everybody else, we're not drinking this year, but don't worry because I've got some really cool apple cider or I'm going to make these other drinks or you know, just like have other options available so it's not super lame. Like, yep, we got water and Diet Coke.

Okay. Right, Okay. I like that. And I have, I think I have seen families before. Maybe there was one person, I think in this situation, it was like a daughter who had a drinking problem and they were going to have a family event and they were just going to make it non drinking. But what they said is, they didn't say because Molly, you know, she's in there. They didn't make it weird. They just said, you know what? It just don't go well, you know, because it's not just Molly, like Uncle Frank and this, you know, and somebody has an argument. And so they just made it sort of like, we're not going to drink and here's why. It. And it didn't feel pointed at the person.

I love that.

Okay.

I love that. That's really sensitive.

Okay. Another thing you can do, maybe you have a loved one who's in early recovery, but you're not hosting the event. So maybe it's your husband, he's in early recovery and you know, you've got to go to your in laws and you know, at your in laws, you don't have any control over whether or not they're going to be doing whatever they're going to be doing in a situation like that. How could you support your husband?

Me?

Is that for me? Sorry.

Yeah, yeah. From the, from the addicted person's perspective, like what would be helpful and what would not be helpful?

So he's an early recovery and I'm still drinking.

Well, you're going to be going to a family event and other people are going to be drinking.

Oh, gotcha. I feel like having, I mean, I would call that like a wingman situation, which would be ideal. So you can totally support them and you have a, you have a game plan. So if it gets too crazy, you know, just slip out. You don't have to tell anybody.

Goodbye.

Get there early. Because the earlier you get, the less intoxicated and annoying people can be. And you're like, well, I've been here two hours, so I can leave now. Whereas if you show up late, then you're kind of stuck at least for an hour to show face and the more likely people are to be intoxicated and annoying. And. Yeah, so wingman is a great idea.

I like that.

Like a partner come up with like. Yeah, you can even come up with like a safe word. Right.

Or secret look. Like, just give me the look. Yeah, we're out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Go warm up the car. Like an out story already. Like before they go, they say, hey, we're gonna be There. But we gotta go to so and so too, so we probably can't stay long. And so it's almost like they've already preemptively opened the back door so they can walk out if they need to or whatever.

Yeah, that's. That's also an awesome technique.

Love that.

I like that. Okay, all right, we're gonna move on to you. Dana, you've been quietly sitting there. It's your turn. We're gonna put you on the witness stand now. All right, Dana, from the family's perspective, have you ever personally been involved with a holiday event, wedding, special occasion of any sort that went awry because of substance use, abuse? I guess I should say.

Yeah, I. I guess it depends on your definition of awry. You know, thinking back to. To that, I would say the worst events were my daughter's Bat Mitzvahs, because my now ex husband was actively using, and it was horrible for everybody because my kids knew something was up and they were always embarrassed of him. He used opioids, and so he sweated profusely. He always had to have a towel around his neck. He would have huge spit pit stains under his arms. So that was always an embarrassment to the kids. And. And. And he was just, you know, a little wacky. And it was kind of like everybody. The elephant in the room, everybody knew something was wrong, but nobody was going to talk about it. So I think the. For me going awry is just how embarrassing it was to have somebody around like that. And everybody knew, and it's really uncomfortable. It is really cringey.

My son was like, cringe, cringe.

We say it's like walking around with your fly down, and everybody knows it except the person walking around with their fly down. Right. So that was my. That was the ex husband. That was our always our go to statement, you know, now that he's clean and sober. But, yeah, so I think that was probably the biggest. But, yeah, there were lots of events, lots of holidays where, you know, he was drinking, he was stepping out to do his thing. You know, everybody pretended like that wasn't really going on. Um, and everybody's just, you know, trying to have their own fun and not talk about the big problem.

Did you worry Dana about it beforehand? Like, like, obviously you knew that this problem was building before the. The bat mitzvahs or whatever. Like, what were. Were you worried about it leading up? And if so, what did you do or didn't do about that?

Well, I guess I would have conversations, you know, because between he and I, it Was, you know, I know this is a problem, and how is this going to be, and can you keep it under control and don't embarrass your kids? And those kinds of conversations I would definitely have. But when you're dealing with someone in active addiction, you're a little bit in denial. They're in a lot of bit of denial, and they think they can keep it under control because they don't think they really have a bad problem anyway, so.

And you think, surely they'll keep it under control at grandma's funeral or whatever. You know, you're thinking, surely it won't go right here. That's definitely where it's going to go. Off the wall. Yeah.

Yeah. So all those conversations are just futile because active addiction causes crazy situations. So.

Okay, so I'm almost getting the impression from listening to Molly and listening to you, Dana, that having a conversation with someone and saying, we want you to come, but we don't want you to drink or use or be intoxicated or higher. Whatever the word is, it's almost like that's not a good boundary or it's not going to work. Is that what you guys are saying?

In my. In my experience, having expectations that they can keep it together, that they can be under control, is kind of like having a false expectation. And I always say, you know, and I just want to throw this out there, too, because Molly didn't mention it. She's a recovery coach, so she helps people in recovery. I'm a family addictions coach, and I always tell my families, you have to have realistic expectations of your loved one, and they're not very high. When you're dealing with someone in active addiction, they just can't be. And then I always say, you know, resentments are just premeditated expectations. And so when you put these expectations on them that they're not capable of, it's just gonna make you crazy. And of course, them crazy, because then you're yelling at them because you had this expectation that they not capable of following through on. So really got to adjust those expectations. And especially around the holidays. And if you don't want to be around it, if you don't want it to ruin your holidays, if you don't want things going awry, that boundary can't be telling your loved one what you expect from them, because they're going to break that. You got to put a boundary up for yourself, not a boundary for them. You know, like saying to them, your boundary is, you can't drink at our function. That's not a boundary for you. You're trying to put a boundary on, and they're not capable of it. So go with the expectations. Just like Molly was saying, maybe only 5% are actually going to follow through if you say, don't drink. You know, 95% of them are going to drink or do whatever their drug of choice is. So keeping that in mind and wanting to protect yourself and your holiday and your family members, set the appropriate boundary for yourself. And if that means you have to do a holiday without that loved one, that's their consequence and they need those consequences to understand that the family has is setting some lines in the sand. And if you don't like it, maybe you've got to change your behaviors a little bit.

I like that. And I know that may be kind of surprising to a lot of people watching about not saying to the person, well, you can come, but we don't want you to drink. It kind of reminds me, I tell people a lot, like when they say, you can live in this house, but you can't use in this house, and they know the person's an active addict. I'm like, it's going to be in your house. You know, they'll just say, but not in my house. I'm like, that's not. You're not understanding addiction. Like, if the person is that addicted, they don't even have the ability to show up. They may have the ability to show up, like Molly was saying, and not drink while they were there, but they're going to be drinking before, you know, so you really kind of negated the issue anyway, so.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Or they'll have their little stat like Molly, I'm so surprised you never thought to do that, like bring in the little airplane bottle and broom closet down it.

I was actually probably more concerned my kids would go through my purse and find it.

Okay, all right, so. So what would be, Dana, then, a boundary for yourself? I know you said it may be is as awful as it sounds. It may be you have to not invite the person to the event because that's more. Honestly, it's harder, but it's more realistic. Right? Like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had mentioned that I do interventions. And leading up to the holidays, the interventions that I've been doing, the last couple that I've done is one of their consequences. If they don't take the offer of treatment and getting help for themselves, the family has put in their bottom lines. Consequences, letters. You can't come to, you know, the house at the. At the shore for our holidays, you know, or you're not invited to holiday gatherings this year. And that is just realistic. If you don't want your loved one that's using to cause things to go awry, whether you know it will or not, but you just don't want to be around it, it makes everybody too uncomfortable. It's too awkward. Like Molly was saying, whatever it is, that just has to be a boundary for you, you know, or step out and go to someone else's house. Say, you know, this year we're going to take the opportunity to do something that we've never done because we've always done it ourselves, but now we're going to so and so's or this person's or out of state or, you know, it's not like you're trying to come up with an excuse why you don't have to invite them, but come up with an excuse so you don't have to invite them if it's that uncomfortable for you not to invite them.

Right. Like. Like maybe if this is your brother or sister and you're like Molly, and you usually hosted at your house, maybe Aunt Jen's hosting it or something like that, and you kind of like get yourself off the hook that way, what would you. What would you think, Dana, about. Because you can't. I love what you said. You can't. You can't tell them what they can and can't do. That's not a boundary. That's trying to put a limit on somebody boundaries for you. And I love that because you're right on target. It's like, so it. Would it be like. And if. Then statement. If this happens, then I'm gonna do this. Like, like, if you start showing your ass, I'm gonna leave. If, like, I mean, what, what would you say about that?

Yeah. So you're talking about if you do invite them, but you put limits on or expectations on how you want them to behave.

Right. Well, it's really like when you say boundary about yourself outside of, like, I'm not inviting you, that's one boundary.

Oh, okay.

What are the other boundaries you could say that are for yourself? Are there other.

Well, but if it's. If it's not. If you're not hosting, you know, you can set the boundary that you can. You can leave. You know, like you were saying, have an exit plan. If you don't like the way things are going down, if it's too hard for you to watch, you know, if a mom is getting triggered by their kid, because all Of a sudden, they're behaving in what? You know, if there's triggers for you, just like there's triggers for the addict, there's triggers for the family members to, you know, have an exit plan. You don't have to stay around it.

Right. So if it's your spouse, you might want to drive separate to make sure you can drive and leave, or you just take the car and they can Uber or whatever you. You. You want to have. Just like we. We talked with Molly about the addicted person having an exit plan. The family member should have an exit plan.

Absolutely. Okay. Either side can be triggered.

Do you think, Dana, that the family member. Let's say. Let's say it's your husband and he's alcoholic or whatever, and you're at grandma's annual Thanksgiving Day, you know, the turkey's coming out part. And so. And then your husband starts getting obnoxious or whatever, you know, you. It's coming on. Should you run interference? Should you just try to take him out of there? Should you just remove yourself?

Well, I. I would say that. And it depends on how much of enabler the person is, how codependent, what codependency is run. Right. That's all going to change that perspective. But I guess, in my opinion, I don't want the other family members to suffer because my husband's acting the ass. So it would be my goal to get him out of there. Now, if I'm having a good time and I don't want to leave and he's just making a scene, maybe I would call him an Uber and I'd say, you, you have to leave. You know, you can't drive and you're not welcome here anymore. You're upsetting, you know, everybody around you. It's time for you to leave.

But, Dana.

Yes.

There's no world where that's going to go.

Well, which is why I'm gonna say next. Yeah.

Then the rest of the day is just ruined, and it's gonna be a.

Jerry Springer episode after that. Yeah.

So, yeah. And that's what I was saying. It depends on where you're at in the relationship, you know, but, yeah, most likely you're gonna be taking them out of there. Don't leave that person there for everybody. Don't leave yourself.

Oh, my God, no.

You know, and say, I'm out of here. I'm not dealing with this. If you brought the ass with you, take him away.

Right. But sometimes. Sometimes you can't. Like, because you can't. They don't Let you run interference. Because they're so, you know, they're like, no, I'm staying. I'm having fun, you know, and they won't.

Then I would.

Very compliant. A lot of times, you know, when you say, let's go, or I'm calling, you know, you need. They. They. It escalates, and then you have like a big fight in front of the family.

Yeah. I would tell everybody else to leave. We're just gonna leave him here? He can have fun.

I was gonna say he's gonna have.

Fun at the party all by himself. Let's all. Let's all go, you know, do something else. Okay, let's take it to my house, whatever. Just disband the party. I mean, nobody's going to want to stay around if it's escalating and it's getting ugly anyway. And that would be really sad if, you know, somebody ruined the whole gathering and everybody said, okay, bye. You know, you're on the.

I like that you said, Dana, it really depends on sort of your own personality and what you're trying to accomplish. Right. Because you could be going into it. I just want it to go smooth. Or you could be saying, well, I just one half. I don't care what he does. Or you could be going into it. Maybe you're going into it and your primary goal at that time is you're trying to get that person out of denial. In a situation like that, I might would let the person stay there and do what they're going to do.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Because. Because if you. If you drag them out, they're going to be mad at you and they're going to argue, but there's going to be no level of insight into what was going to happen. You could say all day long, like, you, you know, you were this, you were that, as opposed to if you left and they, you know, did whatever they were going to do and everybody else saw it. To me, that's. There's a little bit of a natural consequence to that.

That's a great point. Yeah.

But you got to be really in a good. I mean, like, it takes a lot to.

To learn it. Does it? Yeah. Because you're gonna leave him there and you know, he's gonna make a jerk of himself and it's going to go really poorly, and you could have avoided that for that person. Yeah.

But sometimes, Dana, you want them in laws to finally believe what you've been telling them the whole time, and they've been taking up for him and saying he was great. And you're like, you know what? It's you now.

Why I say it depends on where you're at in your journey. You know, are you ready to expose it to the whole family? Have you had enough that you're not going to enable, you know, and pick up the pieces and delete his consequences by getting him out of there? Or are you at the point where you're like, you're saying, nope, they can have you now. They can see what I've been talking about all this time.

Yeah. They've been taking up for you, like, yeah.

Where you're at in your journey and how fed up you are and how much. How close you are to the point where you're ready to make sure he suffers some consequences to get him to help. Are you still trying to protect him from those.

Right.

Those fallouts?

Kind of.

What I'm.

I'm understanding is there's not. And I'm getting this from Molly and from Nana. There's not really a wrong or right answer as far as what boundaries should or shouldn't be set, other than you should think it through and be strategic about it. Yeah.

If your goal is you want your.

Kids to have a good holiday and. And that's going to involve running interference for whatever this other person does and protecting them, then do it. But you're not protecting that person. You're protecting your kids. So it's not necessarily a bad thing to run interference or to take them out or to leave them. It just depends on what's the. What's happening here. Like what you guys are saying, where you at in your stages and what you're trying to accomplish.

Yeah.

Okay.

I agree. There's no right and wrong, and I tell people that all the time. And we're all just trying to do the best we can with the tools we have at the time. Right. I say that all the time.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like what you said, Amber. Just remember that you're protecting yourself, your kids. And Dana, love that you said you can't set boundaries on the other person. Like, you totally can't. That's an unrealistic expectation.

That's not. That's a rule. Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Protect yourself.

And the other thing I want to say about the boundaries and the consequences is if you set a boundary, there has to be a consequence for it.

It.

Right. And if you're going to set a boundary, you have to be willing to follow through with those consequences. And Amber, I know you talk a lot about that, and I always tell my Families, I'd rather you have really loose boundaries and adhere to them than put up the fight and put up some really strict boundaries, and then you just collapse and fall apart. So.

Right. Leave the big talk at home, you know, just rather you just enable it and let it go down than to put the big talk in and not follow through. That's the worst case.

The worst.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. Now, Dana, what about the family perspective when the loved one is in early recovery? Because we haven't. We haven't really touched on that one yet. From the family's perspective, what advice do you have for families on that?

You know, and Molly, you touched on this, too. I mean, to me, a conversation needs to be had to ask the person, what are you comfortable with? And there's, you know, any family and even some extended family of someone that's just gotten cleaner sober, they know they've just gotten cleaner sober. And so they. You would think they all want to support that person. So. And in my experience with these families, I mean, they'll all do whatever it takes to support that loved one. And because I have grandparents in on the intervention and I have the neighbors that are close and, you know, so the people and the extended people a little bit out from them really want to support them. So ask them what. What would make you most comfortable? And everybody's going to be on board if they say, yeah, it's just, it's a trigger. I'd rather not be around. I think it'd be more fun for me. I wouldn't be doing that battle in my head like, oh, they're drinking. Could I have just one? I mean, whatever the struggle that's going on there, just eliminate that and take it away. But ask them, you know, maybe drinking wasn't their thing. Maybe they were, you know, they were shooting up heroin and they've never had a cocktail. Like, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't bother them at all.

Right, Exactly. So you might be thinking, oh, have any substances here? But they're like, that's not a trigger for me. You know, just don't start shooting up heroin in front of me. That might be a trigger.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, Just have that conversation. Ask them what they're most comfortable with, because I guarantee you anybody surrounding them is going to be on board with whatever it is that they're need for support.

You know what I loved about your sponsor, Dana, is the first thing out of your mouth was ask them. And you know why I love that so much is because as the family member, one of the Things that we do in our own illness. Part of this is we want to take control and we want to decide and we want to make sure things happen the way we want it to. And you didn't start there. You said, ask them what they want and what they prefer. And I think that was just like spot on. And I love that. Yeah, kind of makes sense because everybody's different. You know, sometimes it, it may bother people, other times it bothers the person more that people are not drinking because they feel guilty, they feel like they're ruining the time for everyone or they just feel like now everyone is awkwardly aware. So it's really very different. And I think you do have to sort of ask the person what they prefer.

Yeah, like Molly was saying, I don't think, I think both are a good solution. Just not have anything there or ask them what they prefer. But I guess that's my first response, like you said, is just ask them.

Okay. Now I had a, I had a lady that I used to see and she, she had a problem with alcohol, but she, you know, she was like super involved in her community. Like, I don't know, she had like the church ladies group and the book club and you know, she's always having things. She had things at her house all the time. And not really early on in her sobriety, but after she got some time under her belt, you know, she would have like the event and the girls would come and they would bring wine and she would say that was fine, but please take it with you when you leave. You know, don't leave it here. And she had another friend who would make sure it was all poured out. Like, you know, there was no like empty glasses laying around. So she would kind of have a wingman. And then she would also, she would just communicate, I'm totally fine with you bringing it, but don't, don't leave it and don't bring extra for the host.

You know, and that's what great boundaries for herself. Yeah.

And that's just about knowing yourself.

What's that?

And that's just about knowing yourself, you know.

Yeah, exactly. Just really, you know, think internally, like what's going to make you feel good. Set up your internal boundaries and communicate those to others. And those are great examples. And you know, I was just thinking about when you were talking, but they come over and bring their wine. You know, there's lots of non alcoholic wines now as there are every, you know, they've made a non alcoholic, every alcohol you can think of. And I think that too is something that needs to be talked about because just because it doesn't have an alcohol content doesn't mean it might not be trigger for your loved one. You know, mocktails still look like a cocktail and you know, it looks like.

It smells, like it feels like it in your hand, everything.

Yeah, exactly. So don't just assume that, oh, we'll just have a non alcoholic stuff beverages because it could be a trigger too, even though there's no alcohol.

On the other hand, I have seen people who, it makes them more comfortable to have like a, a non alcoholic beer or something. So, so they'll bring their own six pack of their non alcoholic beer or whatever it is and put it in the cooler or the freezer and then they just feel like they're regular like other people, you know, and a lot of these non o' clock beers, you don't even. Other people don't even know that they're non alcoholic because there's so many different brands and types now you could be talking, people don't even know. So that's where it's really, it's really individual. And I think respecting that person's wishes, even if you think different, is that's the best thing you can do just to support someone.

Yeah. I just want to say I've heard Molly talk on this before and you might want to talk, talk to this a little bit, Molly, but around the holidays and people that are newly sober and they're networking events or holiday events around the holidays in your work environment where people don't know you're sober and you know, obviously in a family environment, most often they're gonna know. But talk a little bit about that, Molly, because you've had some great insight as to how to handle those holiday parties for work environments where people don't necessarily know you don't drink and everybody's expecting you to have a shot. Have a drink with us. Yeah.

I actually wouldn't say I have a lot of experience with that because since I got sober I stopped going. Like, I, I just don't go to those events anymore just because it is full of booze, everybody's drunk. I mean, it's just not fun for me. So I'm sorry, I don't have great advice for that. Go ahead.

I was gonna say, but I've heard you say before, which is what I was getting at is you've said if you need to go, go get a club soda with a wine. Nobody has to know you're not drinking.

Yeah.

So you can go up to the bartender. And just tell the bartender, hey, I don't drink. This is my drink for tonight. Club soda with a lime or whatever it is. And say so anytime you see me coming up here. If you could just have another one ready for me so you don't even have to talk about it. And nobody will ask you, why aren't you drinking? Or come have shots or this or that. You know, because sometimes in early sobriety, you don't really know how to respond to that because you haven't been asked before. And the longer you're in and out.

Of it, you're not ready.

It has your whole story.

Yes.

Yeah. And the longer you're in it, the more confident you'll be. You'll be like, because I'm a total when I'm drunk, or, you know, or it's not healthy for me, or, you know, whatever.

I love the idea of having something in your hand that maybe looks like a drink. Because I'm sitting here thinking about this scenario as you're talking about it. Because. Because you don't want to talk about it. But even if you did, you're dealing with drunk people, and you could even tell them, but they're intoxicated, and they're. They're very likely to say something like, oh, you never drank too many. You can have just two. You know, you can have this one. It gonna hurt you. And even if you tried to tell them, they wouldn't, like, respect the boundary. So it's almost easier just be like, I already got my drink, and then move home. Right, okay.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You just avoid any questions and avoid feeling like an outcast.

And I just want to throw this out there really quick because I think this is a big difference in saying, I can't drink and I don't drink. I don't know if you've ever talked to that Molly, but when you say I can't drink, people are always like, oh, yes, you can. You know, what do you mean, you can't drink? But if you say I don't drink, it kind of alleviates that whole question mark. Oh, you don't drink. Okay. Different. I mean, just a little flip of that word can make a big difference when you're talking. Talking about it.

I mean, I was one of the people that. I was a drink pusher when I was drinking. So if anybody says, I don't, it was like, oh, yeah, come on, it's just one. You can just have one. Like, I don't really know if the semantics played that much into, like, when you're drinking, like, it didn't really click for me anyways. But I could see, because you've been.

With intoxicated people, they're. Yeah. They're not really hearing you super close, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, a lot of times I will. A lot of the clients that I have are business people, and, like, part of their job is entertaining clients and hosting functions, you know, and then that gets super complicated. And so in a situation like that, I usually. When they're ready, I like to have them tell at least one other person that's going to be there that they're in recovery. I'm like, pick one person that's like your friend and can have your back just because knowing someone else there knows that you don't drink. Hold you accountable to some. To some level.

Yeah.

And the only thing I would say to that is make sure you trust them a hundred percent, that if you were to go to the bar and get a drink, they would come up and take it out of your hand.

Is that what you would think they should do? They should just take it out of your hand? Yeah. Okay.

Yes.

Well, you haven't had a drink yet, so you're still sober, so you're still, like, cognitively functioning. Well, maybe, like, what are you doing? No, we're not doing that. Time to go.

I have a friend in recovery, and. And he says that. And I love this when he says that. You know, sometimes it'll be at a restaurant, and a lot of times the waiters will, like, push, you know, can I get you a drink? Like, oh, here are drinks. And they keep asking you, and you've said no. And he says when that happens, and like, third time they come over, over, he's like, dude, if I have that drink, I'm gonna ruin my night and yours. And it's like, kind of funny. And then they laugh, but it sort of gets the point across, you know, like. And then they like, oh, I got it. Got it.

You know, my. My ex husband used to say in that same scenario, of course not this close to Christmas. But he used to say, if I drink now, I won't be home till after Christmas. Right? He says, oh, when I break, I break out in spot. When I drink, I break out in spots. And I don't mean like allergic. I mean like Vegas and the bah.

Right. I love that. That's what I encourage my clients to do, is to be funny about it, is to say, I don't drink, but to have something funny that gets the point. Across, but doesn't make it weird for you and doesn't make it weird for them and doesn't even mean you have to tell me your whole story. Like, you can say something like that, and everybody's got it, and we can move on and we don't have to go into it because. Got it. You know?

Yeah. And I love that about you, Amber, because you always bring humor to such a serious subject. And, you know, people, whether they're sober or they're trying to get sober or they're new in recovery, they don't want to have fun. Everybody wants a sense of humor back. You know, addiction takes the fun out of everything. So bringing that back into play is so important, even though it's such a serious subject.

Right. And that's good for family members. Know, if you're. If you're trying to think, how can I support this person? I love it. Molly said, just be regular. Treat me like a regular person. Be funny. Be fun. That's literally the best thing you can do, because it's the awkwardness that's going to be the trigger more than the substance. It's the weirdness and the uncomfortableness of the social environment than anything else.

You're like, give me a drink so I don't feel awkward anymore.

Right. So just help them not feel awkward. Now we solved, right? Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna say one more thing, and then we will take one person to jump on here and ask a question of Molly or Dana. I will say this, and I tell my clients this a lot. If you're dealing with someone in early recovery and they're at the family function and everybody's drinking, they probably won't drink at that function, because if everybody knows they're in recovery, they're not going to drink there. But that doesn't mean it's over. A lot of times that starts a trigger. And that drinking could happen a day or two or a week later. But it started because this craving, this trigger, started at the event. So I like for my clients early recovery to know you're not out of the woods just because you went to that event and didn't drink. Especially when it's sort of. I always say, it's like if I am watching TV and I see, like, a commercial for this new, like, cool bacon ranch pizza or something, and I start thinking about it, and the next week I order it because I've been thinking about it since I saw it or whatever, you know, like, you're not necessarily out of the woods, so be beware that, that trigger, it can plant a seed that can then grow. So that's where you really have to think about, do I really want to go to this, or is it just going to make my life hard, you know?

Yeah, it's kind of those stages of change, right, Amber? The pre contemplation stage. So it kind of works in reverse, too. It works to get sober and start drinking and stop drinking, but it can work in reverse, too. You can start pre contemplating like that Dr. Just like about. And then it goes from precontably contemplation to action.

Yeah, you're just entertaining the thought and you're working it up, and then you're fantasizing and then you're planning and scheming and then we're there. Yeah, yeah, Yep. Been there. All right, so if you want to come on and ask Dana or Molly a question, now is the time to put your number in the chat. I'm going to give you just a couple minutes to put. For you guys to put those numbers. I saw one or two numbers already. And then I will take a question or two while we wait for the numbers. Can you guys, Molly and Dana, can y' all see those questions there?

Yes.

I don't see them.

Oh, wait, like you see the chat?

Yeah, yeah. I was on private rather than comments.

Okay.

Is there any. Is there any question or anything there that you guys see that you would like to address?

I see one question. What about saying I have an intolerance to alcohol and gluten? Yeah, if that works for you, absolutely. Yeah. You might get more questions, you know. What do you mean you have intolerance? What happens if you drink it? You know, let's try. No. You know, but no, I mean, that's what you say in a restaurant when you're gluten free. Right? I have an intolerance to gluten. Absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

It does set kind of a hard line. Like, like it, I don't drink at all. Which might work better than I'm a designated driver. Because when you say I'm designated driver, then people say, oh, you can have just a couple, you know, you'll be fine. Designated driver is not always the best one to say, I don't think the intolerance, I think might be better than that. Yeah, yeah.

No, I like that.

Or your.

Your medication counteracts with it. I mean, we're all on medication, aren't we?

Right?

An easy one.

I've got a lot of clients say that I'm on antibiotic. That it doesn't mix or something like that. And that people would be alone if you say that, huh?

Yeah. So I want to make a comment to Eric Peck says, my boyfriend's parents always have rum at Christmas. Everyone gets hammered. My boyfriend. That isn't my responsibility. Oh, wait. My boyfriend is currently three days sober. Very nervous. Yeah, you're the wingman. You're the wing person. So you ask your boyfriend, you know, what do you need? How can I support you? What's gonna, you know, have an exit plan, have a safe word. You know, really talk about that, because it's gonna be a trigger, I'm sure. And if you need to leave, just leave. Yeah. Your boyfriend's sobriety is much more important than this event. This event will come every year, right?

Y. And if you can do that and be calm, cool, and casual and fun about it, even better. Don't be all, why can't I do? Like, are you gonna relapse? Because if you act so freaked out about it, it's gonna make them worse. Be like, dude, I got you. You just give me a look. We're out. You know, just be fun. Be casual. Because if you get intense, it just. The other person feels that. Yeah, I would think. Is that right, Molly? And then that just makes, oh, 100.

Then you're like, oh, should I worry? Is this gonna go down real bad?

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And remind them how great they're doing. You know, you're three days in by holidays. You've got, you know, weeks in, and you're doing so great, and you've got this. And just really pump them up, you know, let them know they're stronger than their disease. You know, when you make addiction such a big deal, and it's so powerful and cunning, how are you ever gonna think you're strong enough to beat it? So, you know, let your loved one know they're stronger than that. Look how great they're doing already. And you've got this, you know, just really, you know, pump them up about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Be supportive. Be fun, be casual. Don't be weird. And then just be their wingman. Whatever. You know, if they say, make sure I have, you know, a mocktail in my hand, make sure you get me out of there. Make sure you don't let Uncle George come talk to me. Let them tell you what they need. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like the fear of missing out is so powerful with some people, and you kind of hit on this a little bit, Dana, but, like, what are you really missing out? Try and Make a list and come up with the reasons that you just absolutely have to go. And if your list isn't very long, then you're not really missing out on anything.

Just stay home.

I like that. Because if you're gonna go and you're not gonna drink, it's probably not going to be that fun. Because being around other people, drinking when you don't drink is fun for about 15 or 20 minutes. And then it's annoying.

So annoying.

Yeah.

Don't know how annoying they are, do they?

That's right. I can't tell you how many clients say that once they get sober. They're like, I can't believe I used to be like that, like, around my friends now. And I'm just like, that's not cool. Like, we're just not as cool as we thought we were. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so I think I know I see at least one number up here, and if we just have one number, we'll take that person if they're still with us, and if not, then I'll do our number picker. All right. I don't see any others. I saw a Facebook user and they put the number eight. So if you are that person and you are still here, I'm going to put the link in the chat for you, and all you have to do is click that link and you will be live with us. Now, we don't have a lot of time, but we do have time for one question if you want to hop on here. All right. We put the link in the chat. You should be able to see it there. And when you click it, you'll. We'll be able to put you right up here on screen with us. Let's see, we have. In the meantime, we'll take some comments. One of my father's friends used to say, I belong to the Anti Alcohol League, which actually existed back then in the day, you know, for the discussion.

The Anti Alcohol League. I love that.

If that creates some uncomfortableness, like when people. I don't. I don't drink at functions. I'm not in recovery, but I just don't. And if you want to make people uncomfortable, tell them you're an alcohol counselor. Everybody get real weird around you. Oh, my God. Yes.

They're like, oh, well, I drink.

I don't have a problem with alcohol.

They just, like, offer up the. The information.

Yeah, yeah, because people are weird. They're like, why don't you. They don't just let you off the hook with. I don't like peer pressure. Is real, even when you're a grown up. It's the thing. Yeah. All right.

I had a. I had a new experience on the last intervention I was on, and it would. It was an intervention gone awry, and the intended patient ended up in jail because she assaulted her brother. But anyway, it was quite interesting. But when we all got back to the house to kind of decompress and talk about what happened in our game plan and what's next, they all broke out the shots. Literally got passing shots around. I was like, and I wonder where she gets it from. Never experienced that before in an intervention.

I mean, I'm not surprised they did it, but I'm kind of surprised they did it in front of the interventionist, to be honest. He didn't wait till you left, at least.

Right. And I'm not in recovery, but I told them, I said, you know, any other interventionist that I know that might have been, they're in recovery. Like, I'm right.

You're, like, the exception, not the rule. Like, most of the time, this person would have been. Good point. Good point.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, and you didn't even ask me if I wanted one. You just poured it and handed it to me.

Oh, they handed it to you. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They talk to everybody, you know? And I'm like, most interventions, like, you wouldn't even ask, like, are you sober? Like, is that what you like? It's very. It was very interesting.

Yeah, I agree. And plus, I just think most people would think, well, we don't want to drink from the interventionist, like, even whether or not you're in recovery, this is me. Like, right?

Yep. Yeah. Always experiencing something new.

Yeah. I hope. I hope those people you're gonna be like, all right, you guys are sentenced to, like, a bunch of counseling sessions for the family because we got a.

They are. They're all. Yeah, they're all in recovery coaching right now. Family recovery coaching right now.

Yeah. All right. I don't see our person hopping on here. And that may be because that person put the number in way early, and they may have already had to hop off here because we've been on here a long time.

Kimberly says, I don't see the link.

Oh, it says, I don't see the link. Okay, let me post it again. It says it's posting now. It's coming up there. It says Streamyard in it. So if you scroll to the bottom of the chat, you should see it there.

So I have a question for Diane. She says, can you do this topic, but with men on the panel? Women and men may see this topic in different ways. Totally. Can we know plenty of men that could join on here? I'm wondering if she wants from the family side or from the attic side. So, Diane, if you're still on, can you let me know if you'd like to. To have a man on the panel that's in recovery or a family member?

Great question, but good point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Still don't see anybody on here joining us, but like I said, they may have gone. Sometimes that happens.

Oh. Diane says both. Both.

Okay. I like that, Diane. It's my kind of girl. We want to look at it from every angle. Yeah. We want to see all the puzzle pieces. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Eric says, oh, this is the one we. We looked at earlier about the boyfriend. Okay. Amy says, but addicts can be triggered by literally anything. That isn't my responsibility. I can only control myself. I think to some degree you're.

You're right.

It's not your job to. To fix everything. You can't control all the different things people could be triggered by. I mean, you're right. I mean, I think people can be triggered by anything. And sometimes triggers happen that that person didn't even know was going to trigger them. But if you're the person's primary family member, you're trying to support them, I do think that you can say, is there anything I can do that would help? Or are there some triggers, you know, of that I could be helpful, But. But also balancing that with understanding it's not all within your control. Control. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I do see we have a person hopping on Kathy, but it says your device is not connected just yet. It says you will need to connect your microphone and camera.

Maybe.

Maybe Kathy's doing that now. Probably has to go in settings and allow it. Kind of like when you get on the zoom or something. Yeah. Alexa says, is it a healthy boundary if they come to the house and you don't set the expectation that they won't use, but politely tell them they have to leave if you believe they are loaded or using there? I would probably tell them that before they're loaded. I don't see a problem with doing it. I just don't know how well it will go if they're already loaded and you tell them that, it's going to be kind of like I was teasing Dana about before, and I said, oh, that's going to go back if they're loaded and then you Confront them about being loaded.

You got to be.

It's not that. It's not okay for you to do that. I'm just not sure how well it'll go. Depends on personality, I think so, yeah.

I mean, absolutely. Setting that boundary is healthy to say, I'm sorry, you can't be at my house. You're loaded, or, you know, whatever, strung out or high or however you want to put it. But like you say, Amber, how well is that going to go? So maybe set the expectations before they come there. If, you know, it might be a problem. Just to let them know. I'd rather you didn't come at all if you're going to be loaded or high or, you know, drunk, you know, so that we don't have that confrontation.

And be prepared for if they don't take that well.

Kimberly was the one that was supposed to join, so she put her comment in the chat.

Okay, question. Can you see it? I can see it.

My husband relapsed after 92 days sober. He's in denial and claims only used twice. I'm finding a lot of paraphernalia. My question is, can I ask him not to be at Thanksgiving since I am hosting?

Kimberly, are you and your husband still living together? And I'm also going to say, trust your gut. If you're finding a lot of paraphernalia, those are your clues. You don't need a house to fall on you. I'm sure he's using more than he's saying. So you still live together.

Yeah. That's going to be hard if he lives in the house and you're hosting. You may want to think about not hosting that.

That would be my recommendation. Because then you're kicking him out of his own house. That's really hard to do.

And he's gonna say he's still denying he's using, so he's going to say you're being crazy. He's not even using. Like, he's going to deny it. And now you really have to have an awkward situation. Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, I'm gonna add Kathy to the stream right quick. Hello, Kathy.

Hello.

Hello. Thanks for joining us.

Okay. I don't know if I'm doing this right or not. Just wanted. Amber, just wanted to thank you so much for your insight help. You've been so helpful with my son, who it has been a. He's a recovering addict, but he's on methadone. I don't know what you call that, but he's not using the other stuff, is he?

Is he better, Kathy? Is his life seem better?

Yes, much.

Then he's in recovery. Okay. Yeah. If he's better, he's better. Account it then. Okay.

But I just wanted to tell you I didn't know I was going to be on a screen and everything, but I just wanted to tell you that you look like the Mona Lisa on there. Every time I look at you, I think I'm seeing the Mona Lisa.

Look like the Mona Lisa. Yes, you do. But that's the first for me. Okay.

Try to stay five steps ahead. You know all the. All the rules that you, my husband and I remember. Try to stay five steps ahead. Remember, we can't set boundaries for all the things that you've taught. I look at at least one of your videos a day and I share with friends who have the same problem. But thank you. Of all the things we've done, you've been the most help.

Well, thank you. You're so sweet. I really appreciate that. Next time I'm gonna try to do the Mona Lisa. Smile.

No.

Thank you.

All right, everybody.

All right.

That's it. All right. Thank you. All right, everybody, thanks for hanging out. We are gonna have Dana and Molly back in the month of December and we'll be talking, talking about gift giving from both perspectives. And I know you guys are going to want to hear that, so be on the lookout. More from Dana and Molly. And if you girls don't mind, will you tell them where they can find you? If they want to know more about you or want coaching from you or anything like that, go ahead.

Molly, my website is as you are, life coaching dot com. And all my contact information's on there. Like each other email address and phone number and stuff.

And you can put that. Would you mind writing that right in the chat for them? Your website forum. And I'll put it in the description too, but this way they'll have it. All right.

I don't think I can type in the chat.

You can't?

No. I can't either, Amber, because that's strange.

Well, you guys can send it to me when we're off and I'll put it in the thing for you. Yeah, okay, perfect. All right, Dana, will you tell us where we can find you?

Yes, danagolden.com.

Oh, that's easy.

Yeah, yeah. And again, like Molly said, my all my contact information is on there. You can book in a free consultation. Would love to help you with some direction. Just leave you a little better off than you came on the call with. And if I can help you. I'd be glad to do that too. So if coaching services work for you.

All right, everybody, thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. Thursdays at 1 Eastern.