⚠️Signs That You're In Imminent Danger Of Relapsing on Drugs or Alcohol ⚠️

What causes someone to relapse? What are they thinking before they relapse, during the relapse, after the relapse? What do they need to do to get out of it? What can the family do? Those are all questions we're going to cover today. And you're lucky because we have an expert witness. You guys know I like to bring expert witnesses. Kyle from the YouTube channel Sober Dogs, he's going to be our expert witness today, and he has graciously agreed to let us pick his brain and we're going to ask him all these questions from, from someone who's been there. Thanks.

I'm ready. I'm ready to testify.

All right, so I know there are a lot of things that cause relapse, obviously, right? What, what are the big main, maybe categories of things you think people should look out for?

Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. For me, I, I kind of break it down into to a couple, maybe two or three. It was like the classification of complacency combined with boredom and then like traumatic event combined with not doing what I'm supposed to do. I don't know how that could be simplified necessarily. But those are, in my experience, two of the main things that happened in the. Within, each of them is, you know, branches out. But I think the boredom complacency is a big one. I've dealt with that and relapsed because of that. And then the trauma, you know, or it doesn't have to be trauma in the sense of like a major life threatening event or death of family member, but like loss of a job, loss of relationship, anything like that. But not being prepared to deal with life's terms, as they always say, you know, maybe meaning I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do the last month and then boom, I get fired and let's go out and do this, because why not? You know, everything's going to go into crap right now.

That's what I call y.

Exactly. Yeah.

I like that you have the. You say it's this plus this. Because I say that a lot. It's kind of a formula. It's not one thing. It's when some things come together. And I love that you're. You're saying that, right? It's. It's this in combination with this that's dangerous, right?

Yeah, it's to me, always a progressive thing. Just like they say addiction is progressive. You know, relapse and, or recovery, whether it's trending in the right direction or wrong direction is, you know, Progressive as well. Like, I can tell you at a time, I relapsed. I was right just about to hit a year, and my home group asked me to speak. And there was like, people coming up to me, like, hey, you're going to be speak for your year. And it just was this complacency thing. The week prior. I'd say more than a week, maybe two or three weeks prior. I hit less meetings. I started calling my sponsor less. I had just gotten done without patients. So that was this three time a week thing that I was doing positive that I'm now done with. And in my mind, I graduated. I'm fixed, you know, of addiction. So all these things combined, which unfortunately, I think is very hard for the person themselves to see it happening in real time, which is, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about why it's huge for, like, support and everything, all those combined. It was just this perfect storm of. I got let go of work early one day, and I say let go, I don't mean fired. They just like, hey, you can go home early.

We're dead.

I had money in my pocket, which I didn't do prior. I got comfortable with that and had a whole weekend off Friday, Saturday, Sunday, where I was like, I got nothing to do. I got money. Everything's going well. I can get high once.

Just once. Yeah, just one time. Last time.

Amber, let me tell you, too, it was crazy. Like, I had driving to this spot. I tip my phone upside down because I knew if I saw it, I would want to call somebody positive. And I didn't want to do that. I was dead set on using. Once I made my mind up.

You purposefully put your triggers away. Your good triggers, like, okay, exactly.

And so I had this whole plan out of how much money I'm going to spend, how long I'm going to do it. Everything going, you know, planned out for the whole night. Within, I would say, three to four seconds of getting high, that entire plan was gone. It was not even. Oh, you had this. It was like somebody used the. The. The thing in Men in Black and just wiped my. Oh, yeah, I was gonna say Matrix Men in Black thing. And just I was gone, off to the races. I mean, within an hour, I'm back buying more. I'd made up my mind to use the next morning so I wasn't sick the next morning turned into the next night. And somehow by, you know, I attribute it to somebody looking out for me, somebody higher up. Within five days, you know, my mom caught me Combination of that and just realizing what I was doing, I somehow up and got back on track.

That brings me to a couple of questions I have for you. The first one is because you were right at about to get your year, is what you said, because you're going to speak or you'd been. You're thinking about that. Let's say you're at a year or, you know, whatever, almost 11 months, 20 days or something.

Exactly.

Yeah. And you have this relapse. Does that mean you start all the way over? What does that mean?

I don't think so. No. I. So that time, how I look at it too, and I know a lot of the recovery world, that time doesn't go away. You know, that 11 months and 20 days that, that I was doing well, that's not all of a sudden gone. You know, there was a lot of great things I did in that time, a lot of wonderful moments, rebuilding stuff with friends and family, for sure. So that's still there. As far as a 12 step program that I work, it did physically mean that my date had to start over. Yes. But again, that year's not gone. You know, that time that all those positive changes were made. And I know there's a lot of new thinking in the recovery world where they're not trying to put so much emphasis on the dates. I do because I work a program that does emphasize that. And I also think it's kind of important. I mean, you know, if I. I think it's important to celebrate the milestones and as well as to let other people know. It's possible if, you know, everybody just said, I'm Bob and I'm clean, you had no idea if Bob's on day two or 20 years, you kind of wouldn't be. The reality is. Yes, exactly.

You know, deny it. Right, exactly.

So but I don't think, you know, I think the balance really comes in learning from it. Not under underestimating it or undermining it. Learning from it and being serious about it. Holy crap, this happened. How did it happen? Why? What can I do different? But with that being said, not beating yourself up like, oh my God, screw it, everything's done, you know, the efforts, like you said a minute ago.

Right. Because the, the days, counting the days, it can, it can be really helpful for a lot of people because it keeps them motivated. Right. They get excited and they feel good about it.

Exactly.

It can lead you wrong in two ways. One is if you have a relapse, then you think, I've screwed it up. You Know, I'm day one again. I started that. That's not good thinking. And then also it's like, dude, I've been sober 18 months. I can have a drink. And so then my next question for you, Kyle, was you said your family or somebody noticed or kind of caught you or whatever. What did they say and do? And was it helpful or not helpful?

So Sunday afternoon, my mom walked in my room and sat down and said, what's going on? You either have something wrong and you got to go to the hospital, or you're using again. Because she knew, like, there's just no reason for me to act the way I was as well as sleep. Like, from probably after day five or six into recovery, which she wasn't even around, I was in prison. There was no sleeping till noon or one o' clock anymore. Like, it just never happened.

You know, I love, I love that technique. I want to stop and say, kudos, your mom. That's a good one that I'm going to call that multiple choice. Because sometimes families want to say, have you been using? And I'm like, never ask that question, because there's only one answer to that and that's no. Why would you ask me that? I can't believe. You know, and then you start arguing. But she gave you multiple choice. And I think on a brain perspective, literally, if someone gives you multiple choice, you got to pick one of the two.

Yeah.

There's not going to be any. No, nothing's wrong with me. You're being crazy. Like, I'm gonna put that in my arsenal of teaching families. Okay, Multiple choice.

I'll let her know, too. I, I, until you brought that up, never thought about it. Never thought about it that way. But yeah, and maybe it was how she phrased it or, you know, but I knew the gig was up at that point too. Like, I have a relationship with my parents, a good relationship with a great relationship with them. And something you always talk about in your videos is like, not becoming the bad guy, not becoming punisher and letting life and consequences happen. They don't get me wrong, they did punish and stuff, but at this point in time, they had been involved enough and had done some programs for themselves to. They weren't trying to be the punishers.

Whatever they were, they were recovery.

Exactly.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And so they just, they were like, disappointed and a little devastated and worried. But it wasn't like, you're in trouble now. It was, what is going on? Something is clearly not right. And I, I admit, I, you know, I said it right there. I was like, yeah, I have. And so they asked me point blank, what's the next step? What do we do? You know, like. And I didn't necessarily know exactly. And the only thing I could think of was what had been working prior was going to my meetings and in 12 step program, which I had done four or five times a week every week. So it was like, call my sponsor, tell them what happened. That's clearly the inevitable step for me. I guess for me it was call my sponsor. He came over and actually sat down with me and my parents and broke it down pretty simply. Like, listen, yeah, the date starts over. Doesn't mean the last year went away. Get to a meeting. Let's go to a meeting right now. And I want you at the home group tomorrow night and you're going to get up there and you're going to tell everyone you know, you're on your, your day one again. And he's like, that's. It's part of it. And it was definitely a little humiliating to do that, you know, especially when I'm supposed to talk for the year or whatever, but nobody judged me, nobody said a thing. I got a dozen hugs after, and it was like, pick right back up what happened. And then after a week or so, he started, you know, ask me questions about it after giving me a little bit of time to like, unwind and not beat myself up. And then it was all right, so what happened the week prior, what happened two weeks prior, what happened that morning? What was everything going on that kind of led to this.

So that brings up a good point. Do you think it's important because you said your dad said, oh, you're going to a meeting and you're going to tell it or whatever.

Yeah.

Do you think, do you think it's important for people to tell it? Maybe they've had a relapse, but no one knows it, or their family doesn't know it, or their sponsor doesn't know it or whatever. Like. Or the counselor. Do you think it's important to tell it?

I do, and here's the reason why. I know it can be a little, you know, I don't know if humiliating is the right word, but like, defeating almost too. But having to carry that burden is one of those things of like, that is what for somebody like myself, one of the biggest things that kept me using was holding in this all the.

Lies, secrets, the darkness.

Exactly. And one of the. I was just telling somebody the other day, like, one of my favorite gifts of recovery is not having to lie about anything. Like, my parents come over my house, and I don't have to clean any rooms up and hide paraphrase. There's nothing. They could come over and be like, hey, we're gonna stay at your house for a week. I'd be like, great. There's. You know, there's. I don't have to lie when I'm. Where I'm going during the day, where I'm going at night. That, to me, is like, one of the biggest gifts, because it got to a point where I would lie about stuff that doesn't even need to be lied about just because it became a second habit.

Right. You know, it's a lot. It's a lot to carry, like you're saying. And I call it. I call it the tap band Slow freaking work.

Yes.

Never that. Getting the drug and using. It's a lot of work. You got all this whole other charade to keep up. It's exactly exhausting.

Yep.

Yeah.

Each lie spiders into more lies.

And you got to tell this one to this person. Exactly. Yes.

Exhausting. And then you feel so guilty that it's like, what is the one thing I know up to this point that relieves guilt? Very minor and very temporarily high. So that's what I'm gonna do. Because I feel so bad about just being a walking, talking ball of lies.

I'm sitting here thinking about when you said that, telling that, the meeting. I'm thinking, you know, about what it would have been like had you not told it. And you would have spoke at the one year on the inside, what that would have done to you. Because. Because I. I could imagine you would have felt, oh, I. I just think that would have ate you up, and you wouldn't have believed in yourself. I think any positive thing anybody ever said to you from that moment forward, you couldn't have accepted because you felt like it's all built on a lie or something.

Absolutely. I. I think I would have done one of two things. Well, they're both kind of the would have. So I noticed in a guy. I was at a meeting the other night, a guy was saying this, and it was so funny because he was saying it as he was speaking, and you could walk, go around the room and see a little bit. He said, when I'm doing the right thing, and. And being honest, I walk into a meeting, a rehab, wherever, and I'm like, hey. And I'm friendly with everybody, and I sit down and I'm ready to go. When I am lying about something I sit down the back, I avoid, I find ways not to go. And you could see certain people getting fidgety when he was saying that.

And it's not church felt called out. Yeah.

And it, you know, I, I, part of me is like, well if that's where they're at, like I don't want to judge them for it. They're still struggling and let them find their way. But the other part of me is like he's dead accurate because I would have either self sabotaged to, to find another way to ruin that year or just backed away for the next week or two until speaking to where people are like what happened? And would have canceled or something like.

Either sabotage the speaking or just sabotage the recovery further. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Or, or just like detach so far because I felt so guilty that where's Kyle? He's not coming. And that would have inevitably led to more using at some point in time.

That's the thing about secret keeping. Any, you know, any kind of big secret keeping keep pushes every everybody and everything else away. Because you can inter. Can put on the same show, say the same things, but inside you feel disconnected and, and you start subconsciously backing up from family, friends, recovery friends, whatever, because you have this secret inside. And then you start feeling like, okay, now I'm just living this lie again or whatever.

Yeah, exactly. And I know you feel almost like ostracized from the people around you that maybe are doing the right thing. And you could see it because you know, you feel less than of somehow they're doing it, I'm not, so I can't be near them or I don't deserve it or you know, that that negative self talk starts and it just doesn't stop.

And then after a while, just to go real deep into psychology, after a while of that being around other people makes you feel bad. So then you start projecting and being defensive. So then you start being internally angry at other people. Right?

Yeah.

And you're defensive, so you feel bad, but you also sort of project that onto other people.

Exactly.

And they're saying things that are kind of hitting you wrong, but they don't even know it because you have a secret inside. And then you're mad at them, you know, and you start pushing away and pushing away.

That's a great point. I didn't even think about that. Like they might just be talking about, you know, your, your counselors talking about relapse or something. And inside I'm getting pissed at or in defensive like for no reason, when it's just the topic that today's topic. And it's like, well, I didn't, that's a phenomenal point. I didn't think about.

Right. So it just, it just pushes you away, gets you completely by yourself. You know, I like to say, you know, addiction lives in the dark.

Yeah.

There it is. It's got, it's in the feeding at that point.

What do, what do you tell people if they come to you? You know, so let's say similar situation. They had a year going well and they relapsed. How do you kind of guide them?

The thing I tell them is two things. If it really is like a relapse and maybe it was like five days like you said, or one day. If it goes on a month or two, people almost are psychologically all the way back to where they were. Like they kind of do lose their recovery thinking. Right.

Yeah.

And it takes a lot. It's a lot harder to get them back. If it, if it really is more of a shorter period. I call it a lapse and not a relapse. It's one of the things I do. And I tell them you had 11 months, 20 days and you've been using five days, but you're sober today. Now you have 11 months, 21 days. You don't count them five days. They don't. You don't get to count those. But as of Today you have 11 months, 21 days. Right. In your own mind. Because I. Because one of the things is I'm trying to damage control. I don't want the person to feel so bad that they just give up or they think I've already screwed it up, now everyone's going to be mad at me anyway. Might as well make the best of this relapse. Don't waste my relapse. You know, I don't want them to.

Think that's a good point. I like that a lot.

Yeah. And I do encourage them to, to tell. But they've already told me at that point they're telling me. So that's good.

Yeah.

I don't make them tell their family. I don't tell them they have to like go to their meeting and pick up a white chip or whatever. But I talk to them about the secret keeping and then they make their own choice.

Okay. I think when we were talking about should they tell their family? I think the answer is yes. But I also don't think that family's the first person that is necessarily. You know, I always think too. Like for me, the most important Person at that point in time to tell was my sponsor and my addiction doctor. And then if. Even sometimes if a couple days or a week, tell my family. Not in a situation like mine where they blatantly saw what was going on, but. And that's, again, not a bad thing towards them. But my family doesn't get it. They're not. They don't get it. They're not an addiction counselor like you. They're not an addiction doctor, and they're not addicts or alcoholics or anything themselves. So they immediately, sometimes I think in their brain, go to the worst. Oh, my God, we're back to square one. Ten years of disaster is about to come our way, and that can be detrimental to both them and, you know, the person. So I thought it was important to tell my. To tell my sponsor first and kind of go from there. Even though in my situation, they kind of, you know, we're onto it.

But. And you gotta. You gotta think too, where your family's at in their own process. Like, can they handle hearing it? Each family's different. You know, some families that are working a good recovery program, they can tolerate it better.

Yeah.

I guess. One piece of advice. If you are gonna go and tell your family at some point, you need to tell them. So if you're going to tell them, then head it off at the pass. Say, I need to tell y' all I had a relapse last month. Here's what led to it. Here's what I've done about it. Like, I'm upset because that's immediately. If you say I had a relapse, that's. Those are the questions they're going to be having.

Yeah.

How? Well, what are you going to do about it? You know, like. So just say it all.

Yeah. Kind of like hit the. Hit. What is it? Tackle the bull with the horns or headed head on. Yeah, I like that a lot. Because that's what they're worried about.

It better.

Yeah. Is it still going on or is it going to happen again? Is kind of what they're worried about.

Exactly. So go ahead. You know what they're going to be thinking, what they're going to ask. So go ahead and answer it. It.

Sure.

And you'll feel less attacked by them because they won't have all that to bombard you with.

Yeah.

And they'll feel better because they have the answer. So it kind of helps on both sides.

Absolutely. Yeah.

What is a person thinking? So let's say during your five days, what are you thinking during the five Days.

I. It was like. It was the exact cartoon of the good angel, bad angel on your shoulders.

Of.

Once it got started and put in my system. That sets off a whole chain reaction of like that. The memories and the dopamine and all that. I mean, everything. All the chemicals. I'm sure there's a dozen other ones I don't know about, but, you know, set off to where the pleasure is through the roof as far as getting high. Something I loved for years. But then it's like, what is going on? Oh, my God, you're back to this. How can I keep this a lie? You can't, can you? And it just. And that unfortunately leads into more use because once you start, those efforts start and those. What can do now? You know, I. I can either stop and lie about this forever or. Oh, my God, I feel so guilty, so bad. How. What am I going to tell people? The meaning? What am I going to tell work? What am I going to tell my parents? And I think I sometimes go to these extremes too. My brain was saying every night of those five days, tomorrow was the last time.

Yeah, that's what I was just thinking.

Yes, tomorrow would be. But I did that for years during addiction. Tomorrow's it. Tomorrow's it. And there's this weird phenomenon where when you're high, there is this, like, problems are a lot less. For some reason, it is this.

I remember you're under anesthesia. Yeah.

Yeah.

You don't feel it the same. Right.

I mean, I remember sitting with buddies where like, the five or seven problems going on in each of our lives, we would sit there high as a kite, like, oh, it's all right. I could do this, and I'm gonna get this done. And I could do this and take care of that. And like. Like, you know, it could be like, I owe like 50 grand in taxes, like a monster problem. And then the next morning, as soon as it wore off, I'd be like, what the f. Were you thinking last night? That you could just solve it like that? Are you out of your mind? And the weight of it hits again and it's. What can I do? Use to get rid of it or.

To, you know, what's the most immediate fix to this?

Yeah.

Overwhelming feeling or anxiety or problem.

Yeah, exactly. They call it an aa. A stomach full of beer and a head full of aa.

Right.

You know, like, I knew what I was doing I shouldn't be doing, but I was doing it anyway.

Watching above, it's like watching yourself from up here, narrating what's happening and knowing. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think if like, let's say the family, they do feel like the person's using or they know the person using or whatever, should they call them out? Like, should they say something like your. Your mom chose to say something. Should they or should they not?

I think they should. I think they should in a. Well, I think they should, but it doesn't necessari mean they have to go and confront them, like just straight up. I think there's ways to do it without conf. Like extreme confrontation. I think if there is, let's say the person was coming to somebody like you, I think it's totally within reason and. And probably a positive way to do it too, is the family to reach out to you and do it together or figure out a game plan. So I think that, like in my parents case, even though it worked out a little bit separate, but like my sponsor got involved, you know, somebody with a solid at that point, like 11 years of recovery and doing well and whatever the case was. So I think that can help dampen or make the person less defensive by getting, quote, professional involved or somebody that they. They feel comfortable talking to. But I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it just again, like. Like you always say, don't go in as the bad guy. Go in with the care and concern and, you know, lead them to how can we back on track.

Right. Don't be reactive. Don't go in like. Yeah, I will say one thing, because you're saying about tell the counselor. This is just my own public service announcement here. If you're going to tell the counselor, well, don't tell. People call and tell me and then they say, but don't tell the person.

Oh, yeah, no, I hate that. No way.

Because I'm like, okay, now you have a secret, and now I have a secret. And now I feel like I'm betraying a person or now playing games and they're playing games. Things I don't like.

Why would they ever. Yeah, that would drive me nuts.

Because they don't want the. They don't want the addictive person to be mad at them. Yeah.

And they don't want to start anything.

The thing of it is, if they don't say something to the person, they can call me and they say, okay, this happened once. You know it, but don't tell them that. You know, I can't do anything with that. Now we're all game playing, everybody's game playing again.

Yeah.

Or they're like, okay, yeah, you can tell them that I told you, but if they haven't already told it, and I tell them your mama called or your husband called and told me this, they're going to be so ticked off when they go go home. And usually I try to be like, do not go home and do X, y, and Z, but guess what they.

Do go home and do. Yeah.

You know. Right. So it. It's. It's leaving room to make you be the bad guy, even though you're trying so hard not to be the bad guy.

Yeah.

Would.

Would you. So I guess where my brain was going with it was like, if they called, you were like, amber, I know you know, Kyle's using. Is there a way that us two can talk to him? I guess that's where my brain was going. Would you think that would be a proper approach?

That's actually a really good question. Because a lot. A lot of times that happens when I into my lobby, if my person is sitting out there and their family members sitting with them, here's what my brain says. Oh. Because I know and you know, and I didn't know that family member was coming. Like, it wasn't like a plan together session.

Exactly.

It only means one thing. It means my person's in trouble.

Yep.

And I tell my clients, I said, let me tell you something. If you're gonna show up and your mama or daddy, your husband or sister's gonna show, you better give me a heads up so I can protect you. Because I'm like your love lawyer. I don't like for that to happen, because when that happens, the person I think feels humiliated. And it's like sitting at the principal's office. And then your mom was telling on you to the principal. And then I'm trying to help the family member know that I hear their concern, and I understand, but also protect my relationship with the person at the same time. Both of those things.

Yeah.

So I don't really prefer that, because if it has happened, I want to talk to the person by myself. Because I can do it, do it better without them in there.

Okay.

Because they're gonna imagine you're sitting there, your mama's sitting with you, telling on you. I caught Kyle. You know, imagine what that feels like.

And then, you know, I'd be defensive the whole time. Yeah.

Right. And it just makes sense.

That makes a lot of sense. Okay.

Yeah. So I try really hard not to let that happen. In fact, I sort of preempt it and teach people, if this happens, don't do this. And a lot of times, even, like, when I get a new client or new family, they want to bring the person with them or they. I'm like, no, I don't want to see you together, because nobody's gonna be. It's just gonna make everybody on. So. Yeah, that's just my thoughts. Public service announcement. Yeah, that's for the counselors to help the counselor.

That's. That sounds dead accurate.

Yeah. All right. What do you advise someone to do after a relapse or maybe even if they're in it, how to get out of it. Like, what. What's the steps out?

I would say, you know, remember and revert back to whatever you did the first couple times or the first time, you know, whether that was 12 step and outpatient and inpatient. Remember, what got you to. To recovery. And then again back to what we're talking about a little bit ago, that balance of getting. I think the key is stop, you know, whatever you can do to stop using and get back on track. And then once you do that, don't kill yourself over this. Don't beat yourself up so much, because I know we all do it. I. I do it incredibly and learn from it. But don't beat yourself up so much. It happened. And then how can I avoid it again and get back on track? Whatever is for you. And I think that how that would start with pretty much anybody would be open up to something. I think getting it off our chest is like the biggest. One of the biggest things we could do. And that, at least in my experience and opinion, 99 times out of 100, is probably not a family member, you know, so which it can be. Doesn't mean it can't be. But for most people I know, open up to somebody and tell them. And just by doing that, I bet you you'll feel better about it.

It.

And you'll be able to, you know, hopefully get enough momentum and game plan something to get back on track.

Yeah, I. I completely agree. I think that telling someone is a huge step because it's. Once you do that, you've made the decision to stop.

Yeah.

Because you're not going to tell. I mean, you. Yes, you could. You could tell someone and keep going, but it's a lot harder.

Yeah.

To do that. Right. They don't have to do anything. Just them knowing magic. Right.

The only way I would think of it being that the other way is like, if I just had to get it off my chest but didn't want to stop, I would tell another person who's using, Because I know they wouldn't try to stop. They would just be like, oh, you had a year up to yesterday and you just relapsed. Wow, that sucks, man. You know, I mean, maybe if they're, if they're in, you know, maybe they'll be like, you sure you want to do this again? But in the end, most users, unfortunately, it's not because they're bad people, it's just their state of mind are going to want somebody they're using with them, so they're just going to be like, oh, that sucks. You had a year and you just relapsed, but you know you already did some, so you might as well do some more or screw it.

Do you think you could have stopped the. The one reps you were telling about Kyle? Do you think you could have stopped had your mom not confronted you? Like, what would have happened had they not known or not called you out on it? What. What do you think would have happened? Obviously, you have to guess, but.

So that day I was in a really weird mood even prior to her coming in, and I think I wanted to get caught. So I think hopefully how it would have happened is within the next couple of days, her or my, My sponsor was already calling me, like, what's. Where are you? It's been five days. You haven't called me. And he tells me, to this day. I knew it. I've dealt with enough people to where. When I don't. When I go.

Five days only ever means one thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, you know, I think I hopefully would have gotten caught by either somebody in my family or him, or it could have even been parole or like that at the time. But that was because I, I just, I felt so bad and I really didn't want to be back using. I genuinely didn't. So that's how I think it would have played out. But then if, you know, it could have been three days until something happened and during that time could have been an od, could have been a parole violation, another two years back in prison. And if that would have happened, there could have been a very good chance of getting the efforts.

So to me, that's a good example of how all you didn't have to hit a bottom and how actually if you had hit a bottom, it would have probably made it a lot worse.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I hit a little weird bottom the night before. So I, and I attribute this as an overdose. I've overdosed in the regular sense of the fashion prior to this. But the night before the la, what I always did is I did heroin and cocaine together. And what I would do is I would save. I would do like two and two in each shot. But then the last one of the night would be heroin to come down. And the last one I did was at like 2am I woke up at 9am like on my floor passed out, needle still hanging out of my arm. So that's an overdose. I mean, seven hours I went out. How I didn't need Narcan or whatever, I don't know. But it just. That sent me into a, you know, like, what are you doing? You're going to be dead tomorrow.

Right.

So I think I was. Would have pushed for those push to, you know, get caught somehow subconsciously.

You think the secret would have come out one way or the other.

Yeah.

You know, I like to say you don't have to hit bottom. You just have to know you're going to. And I think in that moment you're like, this was a bare miss right here.

Yep.

And I'm not. I don't have any more of these.

Yeah.

Like near misses or whatever.

I like that a lot. You don't have. You don't have to hit bottom. You just have to know you're going to. Going to.

Yeah, you just have to believe it.

Yeah, very true.

You believed it and that was your recovery still at play, I think.

Yeah.

Like you knew it. So to me, your recovery was still working even in that moment.

Yep. And that's what got right back on track. And I think that goes a lot to. To the programs too, of I genuinely liked and trusted. I was petrified to go back and admit I did what I did. But at the same time time, I believe from the bottom of my heart, they wouldn't judge me for it. They wouldn't be mad at me for it, which no one was. So I think that has to do with having like some building up some good relationships and trust and faith and whatever some people's recovery program is. Because what they kept telling me for years of, well, well, love either way. Well, you know, it was true. It proved to be dead accurate. Nobody was the opposite of what they preached.

You had a good foundation in place Place.

You know, it was a little bit interesting too. I was thinking about the keeping it a secret part. So I obviously told my sponsor, my parents, all that, all that everyone in my immediate circle knew. But because parole could have retroactively violated me for the next two years, I had two sobriety dates. I had the One rehab and. And my sponsor and the real one and my online one, which was different to keep from parole. And then as soon as I got off, well, it was more than the next two years. It was like three and a half years. Then I opened up when I got off parole and was like, yeah, it's a little bit different. I have two sobriety dates, according. But I still think it was incredibly important that the people around me knew the truth.

Yeah.

And I really do believe that even after a couple weeks, if I would have told my. I knew my parole officer at the time, he would not have violated me. If I came and told him to do truth and was seeing me right back on track. But I was so scared in case. Or he puts it in the paperwork and he doesn't want to violate me, and he sends it up the chain and his boss wants to. So, you know, that was one little lie I had to kind of. But it wasn't really a lie. It was just, I have two dates. This is how I'm gonna do it. I guess it's a lie.

It's a little omission there.

But I told five or six people in my immediate circle the truth. So I got it out to some people.

If you would have. If you would have been my client and said, hey, what do you think about this? I would have been like, yeah, I can co sign that. Yeah, right. Because I remember in your story, in another time we talked, you told me that you had. There was a point that you had relapsed when you were on probation before parole, before. And you and your guy, your parole person had told you, if you just come, tell me, I won't violate you.

Yeah.

And he did.

Yep.

So you had had an experience before that would definitely have made you thought, like, they're gonna.

Yep. Now in his defense sense. So he told me that. And he said, if you come work, tell me the truth, I'll work with you and I won't violate you. So I did. And what he said. I came and I was like, I've been using. So he said, show me your arms. I did. And I had track marks everywhere. And, you know, fresh ones. And so he comes back in the office and he violates me, and I'm mf and him, you know, what are you doing? You said you wouldn't. And so fast forward six months later, me, him and my parents were talking, and he goes, I just want you to know why I did what I didn't want.

Against.

Against my word. And I said, okay, go Ahead. And he said, the week before you came in, I had another kid who came in, and I promised him the same thing. I won't violate you if you tell me the truth. And I didn't. I had to pick his ankle bracelet up at the morgue a week later because he died. He said, seeing the amount of marks in your arms, I knew that was going to be you if I let you walk out that door. So, in a sense, he saved my life, even though he did retract his word, you know, because, I mean, it was the right.

It was the right call in that situation. But I also understand why. Why in the second situation, why you.

Would have been leaving some serious fear.

Right? For sure.

Yeah.

Anything I didn't ask you, Kyle, about. About relapse that maybe I should have or that might be important for people to know.

I just think that what we talked about in the very beginning about, I. I think with society a lot of times we do assume and think relapse is going to be the trauma, the big event, which you absolutely can and will in. In. But I think, of course, I have no idea of validating the statistic. It's really just anecdotal, my opinion, But I think 50 to 50%, you know, 50, 50 it is. Things are going fine or things are good on the surface, things are okay. No fire, firing from the job, no traumatic event, no, you know, family member death. It's just complacency, boredom. Two or three triggers hit at the right time, and we're not doing the right thing the week before. So. And that's not to scare parents out there, like, oh, my God, now you're saying things can be going great and they're going to reload, relapse. It's just to. To understand that it doesn't have to be anything traumatic like that. And that's the importance of, in my opinion, continuously working a program all the time.

Right.

You know, being in contact with. With those people in recovery and working whatever your program is just to said people.

Because I think. I think you make a great point with that because we kind of know to have our guard up around bad events, right? And so, yeah, our extra protections immediately come into place from our family, friends, ourselves. The. The problem happens when we just let our guard down because we think that's what happens, is we let down.

Yeah, that's so true. Like a funeral or something. Everyone's, you all right? You all right?

You know, like, you guys. Yeah.

Yeah, that is so true. And you know, Kyle, they're Gonna be drinking over there. Why don't you come over here with me? You know, everyone's, like, so nervous and worried, and then I am too. It's such a great point.

Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I've noticed is that when a client relapses, the first thing they want to tell me is because this bad thing happened.

Yeah.

Okay, well, let's. Let's talk about it. But I think they feel like. Like it's supposed to be. Right. Like they're trying to make sense of it. And I said, okay, well, was it really that or had you been thinking about it before that? Well, I had kind of been thinking about it, and so we traced it back, but I almost feel like they feel like there has to be something that they can touch. Yeah.

Because we feel like something's wrong with us or our recovery. Then, you know, how. How could I just relapsed on a Monday with nothing going wrong? There must be a problem with me or my recovery or I'm not good enough. Then there's gotta be a deeper trigger to it or deeper event to it.

It.

You know, that's a. That's a interesting concept too. That's so true.

Yeah. Most of the time, what I find it is Kyle, and this is my experience from clients is just. Is. It's. They started getting the thought in their head that they could manage it different this time. That's what it is.

Yeah. I'll do it.

A little complicated than people think, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Squirmy thought in there.

Yeah. When they say it happens, you know, far ahead of actually picking up, though, I think that's a thousand percent true. You know, typically relapse in my brain and everyone. Every. Everyone I've talked to, it has started 2, 3, 4 weeks ahead of time in their brain. Before the day they physically pick up.

Right. Vulnerable. That's when the vulnerability starts.

Yeah.

Well, thank you, Kyle. You have shared a ton of wisdom with us. If you guys want to hear more from Kyle about this topic, he's got a great video out about relapse and triggers. And I think it's called something like. Like this is just how quickly a trigger can happen to you can sneak up on you. I will link that in the description and in the comments below. And Kyle's YouTube channel is called Sober Dogs. You guys should check him out. He's got a lot of wisdom, a lot of stories to tell, and a lot of recovery to. To share.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on, Amber.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

All right.