Supporting An Addict (or Alcoholic's) Path To Recovery (When and How To Push For Change)

Hey, everybody, we have a little switching bait going here today. Amber is stuck in traffic and literally called me two minutes ago and said, hey, can you step in for me? So she's going to join us as soon as she gets home. Could be 10 minutes or so, could be sooner, but we'll. Today you have both of us. So she told me that her. Her topic is sort of when to engage with your loved one regarding getting them into recovery. Sort of. I guess the summation would be know when to hold them, know when to fold them. And without having any preparation for this at all. My, my gut is always, if you are getting zero change talk, do not start talking about treatment or recovery. You know, remember, we're waiting for them to have some unmanageability in their lives before they're going to do anything about it anyway, if they're still functioning fine. Like, I talked to someone this morning and their loved one was still working, not in any trouble whatsoever. Like, driving around, had never gotten any legal problems. And the only problem was between her and between the spouses. And she was like, should I start talking about treatment? I was like, no, not at all. He. He's going to think you're crazy. And, you know, you guys all know that. That's what they think anyways. Even as their life starts to become unmanageable, they blame us and they focus on what we're doing wrong. So, so if you're getting no change talk, don't even, don't even play your ace, okay? Your ace is for the very end. And even I always say when I'm getting a little bit of baby change talk, then I sort of downplay it and say, oh, I don't know about that. Like, let's just talk about, like, what else is what's going wrong in your life. And as they say, well, really not much else. I'm like, oh, I think you're fine. I think you can manage this. I give them that, that rope to sort of let them figure out on their own that. That I'm crazy and that they do need some help. So change talk will be one thing. Another thing I would probably wait is, is to see if you are, if everyone else in your. In your circle is also going against you. So if you have other people that are not on the same page as in a spouse or grandparents, well, not so much grandparents, because they hardly ever on the same page, but, you know, other pretty influential people in the circle that would have some influence upon this person. If they're against you, then don't do it then either. Because when we play the ace, we need to know that everybody's on the same page. And we're playing the ace for a reason and for purpose. I talked to some clients yesterday, and they were waiting for their son to realize he has a problem. And so we talked about looking at what's going on mental from a mental health perspective as well as from the addiction. So if somebody is like holed up in the room and depressed because of really fair external reasons, they got fired, their job ended. Not fired, but if their job ended like for natural reasons and their girlfriend broke up with them and is probably not the right time to start talking about treatment either, because they're going to be focused on those things, they may turn to substances more and more and more to deal with those things. And at that point, I think you start to put out boundaries like a, you know, if you can't be paying rent by January 1st, you know, we'll look at some other options. And you sort of nudge them to the fact that there may be maybe some changes, but you're still not talking about treatment. You're still not playing your ace. Okay, I see we have a bunch of questions, so maybe I'll flip to questions, Bri, and then if we need to circle back around on the topic, we can and see what if Amber has different. This is from Smiley says I have an ah. When I took the boundaries to quiz, my primary coping strategy was avoidance is the explanation. It said it's important to understand the difference between making a strategic decisions not to act because you are trying to let your loved one feel the consequence of their choices and being passive. Can I explain the difference? If I could read it again, I could. Okay, so strategic decision is sort of what we're talking about right here. Right. So we're talking about waiting until the time is right. Waiting until you think you're going to get some ability for the person you're trying to get into recovery to realize they have a problem, to. To realize that they need to shift. I think that avoiding it, I mean, addicts always avoid it, right? They avoid it till the very end. You want to let them sort of have that. That rope to avoid it until. You're not the only person who thinks there's a problem at that either. Work, school, physical, friends, you know, when. When your friend. When your kids. Friends tell you your. That your. Your child has a problem, your child has a problem. And sometimes when those friends tell the. Your kid they have a problem, they can hear that far Better than they can hear it from us. So I don't know that I answered your question, Smiley, but avoidance and strategic, they can be. They can go on the same railroad tracks because you might be avoiding the situation to wait for your strategic. Or you could be avoiding it because you don't want to make it. So watch that. With no signs of humility and a refusal to change after rehab, is there any way to recover? Is that the question? Okay, I won't say no. But humility and willingness are, to me the cornerstones of. Of knowing I've got somebody in recovery. And it takes a whole lot to be humble enough to realize that you are powerless over your substance or your process, whatever's happening to you from the addiction world. So if you're not humble, then you're not going to be willing. So in this case, I think you're sort of, there is a way to recover, but you're going to have to wait for that process to play back out, for that person to realize that they're not in control again, that they can't manage it, and that they need to sort of loop back around and get humble and willing and see what's recommended. There's always a way, though. That's one of the reasons we call it hope for families is there is a way. So don't give up hope. My husband wants to give up drinking and smoking cigarettes for two months. I know this is change talk, but how do I respond to this? And how do I support him also feeling like he can't do this alone? One of the things when someone starts to talk about like that with me is I say, why? You know, why. Why do you want to give up drinking and smoking for two months? And why only for two months? So I sort of explore that conversation with them. A lot of times that's a bargaining thing, is I'll give it up for two months and if I'm successful, then I can go back to it because then I kind of say to myself, I don't have a problem. Also, one of our takes on this, which is the slightly peeing off your question, is there's only so much willpower in our brain. There's actually a center, and it's like the size of a 50 cent or, yeah, 50 cent piece that sits in there, a half dollar, and it's got a big, long Latin word. I don't know, but it's our willpower center. It's only charged by REM sleep. So when we wake up in the morning, that's as Full as it's going to get. And we use our willpower center all day long. Like, I'm not giving up anything except I use willpower to not speed or to not, you know, flip a driver off that cuts in front of me or to not eat a donut if someone sends donuts to us. So we do use it.

I.

We tell people who are trying to give up drinking, maybe now's not the right time to give up cigarettes as well. So for you two, you know, when you're having the conversation about why is which one is the most important, my guess would be it's drinking. And let's focus on that. And then if we're successful and you decide to go back to drinking, we can talk about cigarettes. Or if you decide that you find your life is actually lovely without drinking, let's get some traction on that. And then we can give up the cigarettes. But bear in mind that little thing is charged by sleep. So I don't know about you guys, but I'll eat healthily all day long. And then at 8:00 clock at night, I'm like, do we have any cold lasagna? Because that's what I need. The answer is no, because I didn't make it. But everyone runs out. All right, so bear that in mind when you, when you're giving up multiple things. We tell people, don't give up smoking, don't give up cursing, don't go on a diet. Just focus on your drug or alcohol limitations. Hey, Josie. My son is on methadone, but I believe he's still occasionally using. Should I open IOP and open up a conversation about it? Not if you're not getting any sort of problematic conversation from him. Lots of people are taking methadone use on top of it, Suboxone as well. So is he complaining? If he's complaining, like, man, this method is just not methadone, is just not hacking it. And I'm having to use on top. I don't know what to do. Yeah, then maybe bring up Iop or bigger boy treatment. And above that, Iop in and of itself is a really good, I think pre treatment or post treatment, I don't think Iop rare. I don't think it very often works as treatment because it's, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, depends. And most people can hold it together for a couple days, but then they lose traction. And so Iop, there's a lot of windows for losing the traction, so. And some Iops are better than others. But no, he's not ready for that, in my opinion, unless he's really linking that I'm using on top of the methadone, and therefore I have a problem. But my guess is he's not. What about their friends? Like, how do I tell him that his friends are wrong for him and they are just a bad influence on them? You can't. First of all, he's probably the bad influence just as. Just as equally. And if they are the bad influence, they're. He's hanging out with them for a reason. So lots of times we hear people say if he just changed his friends, he would give it up. Not true. And his friends are about influence. And if he hung around kids with better influence, he would stop using. Not true. I think that the. Realize the realization is that our kid is often the bad influence. It's difficult as a parent to tolerate and chew upon. It's true. It's true. Hey, Amber. Hey, Amber.

Hey, friend. Thank you.

Why am I echoing?

Can. Is there an echo? You can hear an echo. Okay, let me see if I can do my earphones, and that might help.

Okay. Because it wasn't a problem to you.

It's all my fault.

All right, all right. Let me. Hold on before I.

Is that any better?

I think so. Yeah.

Perfect.

Thank you for doing that. So before I take this next question, we talked for just a little bit because there was a ton of questions, so I just sort of flipped. But we talked about hold them, when to fold them, and I sort of said, look for change. Talk. Don't play your ace too early. So if you play your ace too early, then you don't have it to play later, because they're gonna be like, oh, that again. And so we sort of identified that. What do you. Do you have anything to throw on top of that?

Well, when you say ace, what do you. Is it just. Do you just mean, like, say, hey, I think you need help? Or are you talking about, like, leverage of some sort?

Or Ace would be. Ace would be treatment.

Treatment. Okay. Right.

Yeah.

One of the things that made me want to talk about this today is because I was talking to somebody. I can't remember if it was this week or last week, but it was one of those situations she was telling about the loved one. And I said, I'm always talking to people about weight weigh, you know, sort of let them come around to the idea that they need help. Now once someone sort of knows that they need help, then we're sort of in the clear, and so we can kind of wait for them to say, okay, I'm ready to do it, or it is okay sometimes to sort of, especially in certain situations, to push someone into doing it. But the key is waiting until you know that they know they need help to stop or at least that you know that they know that they have a problem. Because one of the things is if you force someone in before they know they have a problem, you might can force them to do it, but they don't. They've not come to terms with the fact that they need to do something about it. So they're going to go back out and do some more experimenting and try to manage it, do all those things.

Because they were just box checking to get you to shut up, right?

But once someone does know that they have a problem, sometimes people know they have a problem, but they just won't take the step. For whatever reason, they're scared, they're afraid it won't work. They. They think they can fix it on their own. So sometimes they do need a little push, I think. And that's what I was talking to this client earlier about was I was like, based on his personality type, which from what she described is, you know, he's, he's mostly compliant. She's had to go. I called her like Sergeant mom or something. I said in the past, I said, has that worked? And she said, yeah, it worked. I said, okay, well then I want you to wait till you're right moment. Then I want you to pull your sergeant mom badge out. Because if you have the right personality and you say, listen, it's time to do this, we gotta go, I've made your appointment. Like cars running, I got your backpack in the car. If you're dealing with a person like that and you know them well and you know they're going to say fine, whatever, and they're in the car, then you pull the string. Now if you're dealing with a person that's just like a fighter that's going to fight you no matter what tooth and nail, I probably wouldn't use that tactic. So for me it's like, it's about a combination of timing and personality. Because I do think there is a moment where you just push and you say, we're doing it, we're doing it, it's happening.

I think the timing is also linked to their level of desperation. Because I hear so many times they say, when I did get pushed into it, I felt a huge sense of relief because every night I swore Buddha, I was not going to do this tomorrow. And then I get up in the morning and damn if I'm not doing it again by two in the afternoon. And I hated myself and I swear the next night, not going to do it. And the cycle just kept going. So when someone finally said, hey, you can't live here. You need to go to treatment, whatever, that Ace is, right? They're like, hallelujah, praise God.

Yeah. They may not say it to you, but they. There is this sort of sense of like, I mean, sometimes you, you know, I mean, even just in real life, sometimes, you know, you need someone to just like, call you on something or to give you that little push to like, take a step that you know you need to take. It doesn't work if you push someone into it. That does not know that, though. And that's. That's the key. And it can be kind of complicated to figure out because sometimes, a lot of times they'll never gonna tell you that, but sometimes you know that they know. So you have to make a judgment call. And I'll never forget this one time I was seeing this guy. Campbell had actually seen the wife for a long time, and at this point he had went to treatment and he was seeing me for maintenance. And he was a bad alcoholic. I mean, like. Like the, like, I'm drinking Listerine every day kind of alcoholic. So I remember him telling me, and this was a big sort of cowboy, sort of hard type personality that you probably would be kind of nervous to push. But I remember him telling me that there were so many days that he would just like wake up, especially like on Sundays and Monday mornings, he'd be drinking in the shower first thing in the morning, trying to get himself together to go to work, and literally be thinking to himself, like, why doesn't someone stop me? Are they not making me? And that really sort of stuck with me especially. This is sort of like a big, tough kind of dude, manly guy, you know? And there was this sort of secret thought inside of like, I can't stop. I'm so miserable. This is out of control now. If you would have asked him, hey, do you think you need help? He'd have probably said, screw you, or, you know, something like that or whatever. But that's where you have to use your judgment on, does this person know it? And they just can't work up the courage or they're just making excuses. Can you remove some roadblocks? Can you push? Because I think we don't. I don't talk about that enough on here. You do a better job, Campbell, of talking about this with your clients of saying it's go time. How do you, how do you know when to tell them? Like, no, it's go time. We're pulling today's the day because you're good at. You're good at this.

I just, I just can tell by what's being reported. If we're like, I was just saying earlier I talked to some people yesterday and I was like, no, no, no, we're nowhere near that. Do not play your. Your don't pull that card out of your sleeve because it's just going to get all frayed up and by the time we play it, it will have zero value, impact or importance. I think another thing is, like, you have to remember, and this is connected to what you said about your Listerine. Dude in the shower is at the end of addiction. It is no fun. They. They are not getting any fun out of it. They, they literally. They're only doing it to maintain the ability to function in the world. So as you see that, like, when I hear that from clients, like, yeah, he's just, you know, all he does is sleep all day, goes out at night, drags himself in, sleeps all day, doesn't have any money, just like eating crackers he finds in the park. I'm like, we're getting there. Like, we're there. But if they're still like going to work and driving their car and, and coming home and saying, I had a really good time tonight, they're nowhere near it. So I think you sort of listen for the devolvement of the goodness of addiction.

Yeah, I agree. 100 and just there's the listening. And then depending on the personnel, a lot of times it's the watching. Right? Because like I said, some people will sort of admit it and some people won't. Just depends on how they are as a person. Sometimes they're just not going to give you the satisfaction of telling. Like, you're right, I do have problem. But you know that they know. So that's the key. And, and I think you bring up a good point. Like, is it working for them anymore? Do you think they're really still in denial? Another time when this happens is. And this is when it doesn't work is let's say someone knows they have a problem, but they're trying to work on it and they're doing like the thing I call, like the bargaining, but. Right. Which goes on forever. I know. But you have to catch them at the right point because if they're their bargain and for whatever reason this week These two days, it's working. And you pull your ace card out when they've been three days and they've done a lot better, and they've only drank, you know, four beers at a time. You know, whatever. They've cut it back. You're pulling your card at the wrong time. It. It is all about the timing, because they're thinking, well, you're crazy. Like, I'm doing so much better. Like, what is wrong with you? I got this. You got to wait.

I agree with you 200 million percent. But at that point, like, let's just pretend that person was in front of me. I would say, well, you don't. It doesn't seem like you have a problem at all. Like, you're. You've nailed the last three days. I would validate that. I would pour so much into that vessel, because we all know that vessel is a colander, and it's not gonna hold. I.

Like, that's a color.

Sweet. Like, we might even just go to every other week. Like, you are really nailing your recovery. Like, you don't. Your parents are crazy. I would so validate that. So that on day four, when it goes to the S can again, they'd be like, huh. I don't know. I don't think that Kimball was right. Like, I don't know. Instead of saying, yeah, well, I'm not going to let her know she was right.

So that's a good point. And I think that's why this is so important. I always say it's about strategy. It's about really understanding the nature of addiction, really understanding what you're dealing with and where your person is at. And I think, you know, the family members are hearing you say that. And I know. I think. I know what they're thinking. They're thinking, oh, but you're validating wrong behavior. This. That what you're really doing is you're saying, I'm on your side. I got you. We're in this together. And I believe in you, and I believe you. And what happens is, as they begin to trust you, they don't see you as this person that's trying to force them into doing something they don't want to do. And when that happens, just like what Campbell's telling you guys, like, their guard comes down, and when it does hit the fan or it does go wrong, they're gonna feel safe saying to you, you know what? That worked for, like, a week, but now it's not working, and maybe I should consider something else, you know?

And this Goes to our point where we talk all the time to family members. Like, you don't want to sever connection. And by arguing, playing your card too early, you are sort of severing your connection by doing sort of. My strategy is you're, you're strengthening that connection so that they, when they're ready to tap out, they know that I can call. Is why I tell people all the time, for God's sakes, do not stop paying the cell phone bill because they're going to call. Like, you know, my son called and said after four months in and out on the street doing dear God knows what horrible things he did, call and say, I can't, I can't do this anymore. I, I need help. I will go anywhere. I will do anything. Because I was stayed connected. I mean, I didn't, like, you know, drive them to the movies. But, like, if you need your pump supplies, let me know. If you want to pop in for dinner, feel free to do so. You can't, can't stay here if you can use drugs, but we love you dearly.

Right? Because it lets them take the boxing gloves off, right? Like, it lets them feel like, this person's not against me. I'm not. What happens is, like, they cling on to that addiction so much longer because they're defending it. Defending it. Well, because it's almost like that, that instinctual need for autonomy and independence, like, not want to be controlled. And it's like, even if you just quit making them cling sometimes, not that it's your fault, but, like, you know, they get defensive and then they hang on longer than they would if you just, like, let it, let it happen.

Well, it's the same sort of thing we talk about. Like, if one parent is super, like, on it, on it, the other person therefore swings naturally the other way. This is the same, same about this topic. If you're on it, on it, they're going to swing toward defending it. But if you're like, yeah, maybe you don't have a problem, they're going to swing faster to, yeah, no, I do. You're not hearing me right.

It's when you're trying to force someone to see something they're not ready to see whether it's the addicted person, whether it's the other parent, that it is going to slow it down. And it's really hard to trust that process because it seems everything in your body says, like, you're enabling, you're making it worse. You're validating bad behavior. This is one of Those things where you just gotta close your eyes and trust the process or just trust Campbell. Trust me or what? And the reason is, like, literally, people, we've been doing this a long time. Campbell's been through this with two sons. She's been professionally trained. She's been personally trained. She's got all the training. I've been doing this 20 years, and I've tried all the ways. So the only reason I know this because I've done tried all the different ways. And even after 20 years, sometimes I get, like, impatient. Now, I'm not really impatient with the person, but what happens for me a lot of times is I feel that pressure from, like, me, Campbell and Kim. Yeah. They're saying, amber, if your boy doesn't turn around five minutes, let me tell you what's about to happen. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And then I'm like. Like, now I feel like I have to make it happen today. Like, when they come in and then I push too hard, and I can tell immediately that I just, like, took us back a week. When I do that, like, you can just watch the body language. You can watch the wall come up. Every time I try to, like, I ignore my instincts on the timing. I mean, usually I have enough rapport that it doesn't, like, ruin everything, but it does set us back every time. Yeah, I love it. All right, we got time for maybe Bri. We got time for maybe one question or two questions. If you see a.

A really, I feel like we've answered Allen, sort of just what we circularly talked about. I hope I.

Okay.

Walked out of detox last week and in rehab last night. I'm just tired, dude. I know that feeling. So now you go towards yourself, Alan. Just let it. Let it spin again.

Right? And you're gonna have to wait for the timing again. Yeah, you. You get more than one shot on these things, and sometimes you miss. Sometimes you miss your low window.

It's like you're gonna get another one in two days.

Girls, like, do the jump rope thing where there's two girls swinging the rope and one is, like, watching the pace. That's what it feels like. And then you wait. If you miss it, you wait. You're gonna get another one. Yeah, that's a good one. All right. Melinda says my son is currently in a good program but wants to leave after two weeks. Wants to go across the country for the umpteenth time to do a seasonal job. I'm trying the craft method and feel he needs to know My boundaries, that I can't help him financially if it doesn't work out. What are your thoughts? Alcohol is his source of problem. I got thoughts. What you got, Campbell?

I, I. You're not going to stop him. He's an adult. I'm gonna assume since he's going across country, so you're gonna have to say, well, that's up to you. As long as you're capable of being financially independent, then the decisions of being an adult are yours and yours alone. Like that, that financial independence is key. And I tell people this all the time. You never make deals with someone that you're asking to go or getting into treatment. You know, kids will. All the time, oh, I'll go for two weeks, and if I don't like it, I'll come home. And the parents say, okay. And I'm like, you just brought him home after two weeks. Like, that's dumb. So you don't make a deal. You just make a statement about your decision going forward, about his supporting him financially. And no, if he leaves and he's financially independent, if he realizes he has a problem, he can't be, then, yeah, you could put him back in treatment, but you still maintain the. You can be. You can leave early, you can get kicked out, or you can work the program, whatever. Whenever you leave, you're financially independent.

I, I would say on a situation like this, this is like one of those, like, delicate lines. I might push a little. I wouldn't like what Cam was saying. I wouldn't promise, like, oh, if you stay, because we've seen this, I'll buy you a car. Don't do this. Like, But, But I would, I would try without, like, getting into a giant power struggle, I would try to hold them. This is a. Hold them is what I would call it. As long as you can, because you've already got him there. And when they're in treatment, sometimes it's like having a baby in the belly. Like, every day you can get them closer to the nine months is better. Like, every single day they're in the oven is a little better because the brain is healing. Just like a baby's brain is developing. Their brain is literally healing. If there's a reason why. If there's a real reason why, it's like, well, I have to pay my car payment and I gotta go get to work. Because I, you know, if they don't, they're gonna piss us my car. I might would say, listen, I get it. That is pressure. I'll cover your one car payment. If you'll just stay in treatment, I might would say something like that. I wouldn't say, like, just go three days and I'll buy you in a condo or something.

Oh, also, I think depending upon how the conversation is in this case, I would say, you know what, this is a decision. I, I cannot make this for you. But you've got staff, you've got peers, you've got guys in group, you've got a counselor. I would, I highly recommend you work it out with those guys and see what everybody's opinion is on that so that you're not the heavy on the. You can't or can like, pull out. Like I always say when they call and say everybody here is stealing my stuff and, you know, to get us to come get them, I just say, well, it sounds like something you need to talk about with the staff and just get out.

Yeah. Now I would go pick them up. Oh, I wouldn't go get. Right. No.

Financial independence means utterly.

Yeah, I wouldn't make it easy for him. Right. So, you know, you know, I would just hold the line by saying something like, obviously, that's your choice. You know, I trust you to make the right choice. I really think it would do you good to stay longer. Is there something I could do to help take some pressure off of you so that you could do that? You're. And you're not going to fight with. I mean, you're not going to say, if you leave treatment, don't bother speak to, you know, don't do anything like that.

Right.

Yeah. This is a. This is a delicate balance one, I think. Yeah.

You'll see some.

All right, Kim, what's the last one you want this one? Let's see. MD Says, what does supporting them look like once they have stopped? Do we do nothing at all? I would like to know what I should be doing to help them stay on track while staying in my lane. Good question.

It's a big, big, big question, and that's a very complicated answer. So if they've had sustainable stoppage, for lack of better words, and they're working and paying their necessary bills, then if they want like, I don't know, help with the down payment on an apartment or something like that. Absolutely. If it's new, like I've stopped, I haven't used since yesterday, nothing like that's. That's not stopping. So I think the question would be to answer. The question is I need to know how long the person has been stopped. But initially I don't say get involved with that, because that's, that's a shell game.

Right. And I think too, I'm not even sure if MD is saying like supporting them financially, supporting them emotionally, supporting them by pamper. I don't even know. Emotionally, you always love them the best that you can, which is really harder than it sounds. Treat them regular like a regular person. Don't. Don't try to handle them with a kid gloves. That feels kind of insulting or, I don't know, it doesn't feel good. You know, don't always talk about recovery. Like, try to be as like normal and regular with them as possible so they're comfortable with you. So that they don't like dread every conversation with you or think you're always going to bring up an uncomfortable topic. That's what I say as far as emotionally. And if they want to complain about an AA meeting or a counselor, just be like, I know, dude, Sometimes, sometimes I listen to Campbell and Aaron. They say the same things every time with you just because there's some truth. Right? Like, yeah, if they complain about something.

Empathize and validate, but don't solve.

Right, Right. If they say, oh my God, I'm craving so bad, I really want to.

Use that must suck.

Just say, dude, tell me about it. Like, how did you not go use? You know, just be interested, don't be scared. I guess I'm saying the best that you can. Don't have that uncomfortable, edgy feeling because they feel that from you and it makes them not. It makes them feel on eggshells around you too. And that's what you want to.

And that severs the connection that we talk about all the time. So.

Right.

Yeah, I, you know, I got this from Pam in my parent group years ago and she was like, treat them like you would talk to someone, your best friend's child. You just have a normal conversation. Just take the. I am this child's parent and I must have the perfect answer. I must manage the conversation and just let it go.

I love that, Kim. It's like taking the pressure off it. I'm telling you, even as the counselor, every time I let the pressure get to me, it's when I mess it up every time. I'm just regular and I just interact with this person. Like normal person. It works. It's just you have to sort of fight that instinct. But the more you do it, the easier it gets. All right, everybody, we are out of time. I hope that you all have as good a friend as Gamble who can step in there for you. I mean, how many of you have a friend that if you said can you go live on the air in five minutes but say yes while they're eating lunch? Not many. So I hope you all have one. A friend as good as Campbell. And we will see you guys next time. There are, there's links in the description for invisible Intervention if you want by step process. There's also a link in the description for our membership. Campbell and Cam are doing lives every single week now in the membership to like literally they're there just to answer your questions. You can get on there, you can talk to them. It's like the perfect pit stop for you. Just having the comfort of knowing like if something comes up, I can jump over there and ask Campbell and Kim. It's I, I think it's like a huge, just comfort knowing that. So link for that description and we will see you guys next Thursday at 1. Bye, everybody.

Bye, guys.