Telling Your Addicted Loved One To Go To Therapy Is A MAJOR Mistake!

I cannot believe that I'm about to do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm an addiction therapist who's about to come in on here on public, on YouTube and tell you how and why addiction therapy really doesn't work. In fact, a lot of times, addiction therapy can make the problem ten times worse. And I'm speaking particularly to all the family members out there, all the legal people out there who want to send people who have addictions to therapy. I just want you to understand a little bit more about how this process works. And hopefully all the other addiction therapists out there won't come together and shoot me down with lightning or something. All right? But I'm here to tell you the truth. I want you to know what works and what doesn't work. Despite what everyone else thinks, despite what what's been done forever and ever, we got to get real about it. And today, that's what we're going to do. We're going to talk about what really happens in addiction counseling. Now, I don't want you to think it never works. There are a few times when addiction therapy can be very helpful and valuable. And when I'm saying addiction therapy, I'm talking about like you send your loved one, your addicted person goes and has their own individual counselor that they go see once a week, or maybe even more than once a week, or once, twice a month or whatever, and they sit in the chair, they talk to the therapist. That's what I'm talking about. When I say addiction therapist therapy, I'm not really talking about like big, giant inpatient treatment. I'm talking about counseling, one on one type therapy. Now there I'm going to tell you a few incidences where it probably is a good idea. Outside of these, though, I want you to really think long and hard, strategically hear about, is this the best option and if it is a good option, how to go about it in a way that's actually going to make it effective and not damaging. All right, here are your criteria. If a person is already pretty stable in their recovery, like they've got like six months at least, or more of sobriety, and they want to go to therapy and maybe work through some underlying issues or some childhood things or whatever, totally fine, go do that. Encourage that person to go to therapy. Otherwise, here are the criteria that need to be there to make it successful. If you have a person who is very insightful, very willing to be honest, and very much in an active stage of change, meaning they want to stop drinking or using or doing whatever addictive behavior, then you got a good combo. Encouraging that person to go to therapy is probably a good, helpful thing. But let's face it, how many people who are actively engaging in their addictive behavior, who need therapy meet all of those criteria? They're credibly insightful, they're honest, and they actively want to change. Like, they're willing to do whatever it is to change. A lot of times when you're encouraging your addicted loved one to go to therapy, it's not because all those things are in alignment. If those things were in alignment, you probably wouldn't even see the biggest need for therapy, because you think, okay, they're figuring it out. They're making changes. Now what happens is, as the family member, you see a person who's in denial, who's not getting it. You've done and said everything you can think of. And so the next move is, dude, you gotta go talk to a therapist or something. Like, you should get counsel. You should talk that stuff out. But it's not always a good plan. And I'm about to tell you why it goes wrong and how it goes wrong. And stay tuned, because we will talk a little bit about maybe a better plan or method or way to go about it that would be a slight bit more successful and productive for you. All right here. The biggest reason, the number there's going to be like four or five here. But the biggest one, why it's not always a good idea for you to encourage your loved one to go to therapy is your goal. And their goal are going to be very, very different. Now, maybe I'm wrong here. I'm totally, like, mind reading. But here's what I think most family members are thinking when they are trying to get their addicted loved one to go to counseling. I think most family members, y' all tell me if I'm wrong, But most family members are thinking, all right, we gotta get them to go over and see Amber or whoever, counselor, right? And because she's gonna tell them that they got a problem and that they need to fix it, and she's got magic ways, and when she tells it to them, they're gonna listen, kind of like almost send them to the principal's office, and somebody with some authority is going to tell them, and then the light bulb's going to go off, and then they're going to get it. So it's kind of like I'm gonna let a therapist tell them because they're going to listen to the therapist. That's not exactly how it works, people. The other thing I think that family members are thinking is, all right, like, dude, this person, they must have some serious underlying issues and that's why they're doing this crazy behavior. It's going to go talk to Amber or whoever therapist, and that therapist is going to uncover all these underlying issues and they're going to resolve it. And once they resolve that, this drinking, using and crazy addictive behavior, that's going to stop. I can promise you that is definitely not going to happen that way. So in your mind, as the family member, you think this is the solution and in your mind some sort of version of what I just said, those two things, that's how it's going to work, but that's really not how it works. Their goal, if they're coming to therapy and they're coming because you've encouraged them to come, number one, their primary goal is they're coming to get you off their dang back. Or they're coming because you leveraged them and you promised them something. You said, I'll pay your rent or something like that if you'll go see Amber, you know, twice a month or whatever. They're coming for that reason. And maybe even under the best, most, you know, genuine hearted circumstances. They're coming because they feel like they have problem, but they feel like that problem is you. And so they're coming to the therapist to talk about how controlling, mean, nagging and terrible you are and to get that therapist to sort of see their point of view and that maybe the therapist will finally tell you once and for all that you got a problem and you need to fix it. So both people are looking at this therapist like, oh, this therapist about to sell that other person what they need to do. And then there's what actually happens in therapy. Let me give you some examples. When I was brand new first, I wasn't a brand new counselor, but I was first starting to see like individual clients like this kind of counseling, one on one type therapy. And I was still working in the hospital, the psych hospital, like full time. But I was seeing a few clients on the psych side. I was running an office from a friend's who owned a big office building. I was renting office, it was a therapy office for him. And so I had a few clients that were coming and I had had a lot of history working with young people. So a lot of my first initial clients were young people because families had met me through the hospital and I ran this teenager program and all this stuff. So people kind of knew me that way. So I would end up seeing these teenagers who were going down the wrong path doing things they shouldn't have been done. And these parents would say, oh, I heard Amber's good. I'm gonna send them down there. Amber's gonna straighten. So I can remember one day sitting in this office that I was running. Just so you get the full picture, I had this big red like chair and a half, like one of those big giant chairs that almost swallows you up. I'm sitting in this chair. I have adult braces at the time, and I'm pregnant and my feet do not hit the ground. So it was a sight to be seen for sure. And not only that, but Campbell at the time. You guys know Campbell, she was on here last week, my parent counselor. She was actually my intern at the time. So Campbell was also in the office during this session I'm about to tell you about. So she's sitting. So like I'm sitting here and my client's sitting on this couch in front of me and there's like this couch going sideways. And Campbell was sitting there just sort of watching me talk to the client. She's not really participating, she's just kind of watching because she was like, not only she my intern, she was like a new intern. She's trying to like get a feel for what happens here. So on this particular day I was seeing this about, I would say like 17 year old young lady, really pretty girl, very athletic. I think I want to say she was like a volleyball player and she was pretty. I can't remember for sure that was her sport, but I do remember whatever sport it was, she was like really good at it. She came from a good family. I think both of her parents maybe were into real estate or something like that. But she had been being pretty rebellious, sneaking out, dating this older dude she shouldn't be dating, drinking, doing drugs, all the stuff that people come to see me for. So I'm seeing this young lady in my office now leading up to this session. It wasn't my first session with her. I'd seen her a few times. And I'm constantly getting these like emails from this girl's dad. And he would tell me everything this girl had done before she comes to session and about how she got into argument with her mom, about how she made this bad grade, about how she snuck out, about how she failed her drug test. So I'm getting these sort of like principal office reports sent to me in the email from parents, which honestly is pretty common when you're in the situation of seeing people with addictions, especially young people. You get these sort of reports sent to you because the parent is thinking or spouse, whoever it is, is thinking. I'm gonna tell Amber what she done done. Amber's gonna talk some sense into her. But here's what actually happens in this session. So this young lady, now she's a pretty, I want to say it, hosty young lady. She says what she thinks. She doesn't sugarcoat it. She just is what she is and she doesn't care what you think. I kind of like that kind of client. Because they're just going to tell you the truth. They don't care if you don't agree. They don't care. They'll hurt your feelings. They're just going to tell you what it is. If you follow Enneagram, then you'll understand when I say she was a definite type 8, capital type 8 teenage girl here. So she's sitting on my couch and here's what this girl is telling me about. She's telling me about how she snuck out the weekend before she was seeing me and she took some of her Adderall. In fact, she took some extra of her Adderall at night. Her boyfriend picked her up. Her boyfriend, who's like 23 or something ridiculous, who's like a drug dealer, just so you know, picks her up after she sneaks out of her window. She takes the Adderall so that on purpose so that she can drink more and stay up longer and drink. So she's telling me the story. She snuck out the window, she took the Adderall, she's drinking all night. Her and her boyfriend get an argument. She's telling me about all the going zones between her and a boyfriend, this and that, the other. Now one of the things that she's telling me is about the sex life between her and this boyfriend. And so I'm Talking to a 17 year old kid and I'm just, of course that like adult side of me is like checking in my brain and it's telling me like this girl's gonna get pregnant. Like, you know, my adult, my adult spidey senses are going crazy. And I'm like, look, at least tell me you're using protection when you're sneaking out, doing drugs, drinking and sleeping with your drug addict boyfriend. I didn't say that. It's just one thinking. And she says, well, I mean, no, most of the time. Not like, well, are you on the birth control? And she's like, no, no, no, no, I'm not. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, what? Why are you not using protection? Get ready for this. I hope that this is. Makes you fall out of your chair. About like it made me fall out of my chair. This young girl looks at me and says, she says, well, he says he don't like it because I don't fit on him. And he's just too big. And I was like, are you freaking kidding me? I. I think I did say that. I said, are you freaking kidding me? To this girl? Now, just a sort of side note, just so you know, I had this giant box of condoms in my office. And the reason I had them, I know you're thinking, why you got that in your office, Amber, but the reason I have them is because there's this grant organization locally who like, will give you like hundreds and hundreds of them for free if you work in any kind of situation where people might need access to them. So I have these in my office, in my new office. I have them like in of the bathrooms at the Client Cheese. And they just know that they're in there. They don't have to ask, they just take them because I believe in the safety. So I said, that's ridiculous. You can put a condom of your whole arm. And she said, now you gotta remember this is like a hosty little girl. And she's like t. She says, show me. And so then I. And honestly, I'd heard that before, but I'd never really tested the theory. And I was just big talking when I said it. So I go over and I was like, fine, I will. And I get the condom out. Open the condom. Now, before I tell you what happened here, which is kind of embarrassing, I want you to remember these parents are sending this girl to me and I want you to remember what they're thinking in their head is happening in the session. And you got Campbell sitting on the other couch like watching this whole thing. And she's got to be thinking, oh, what is about to go down right here? So I go get the condom, I put my hand up like this, open the condom, and I proceed to put it over my whole hand and arm. Guess what happens? It breaks. So now I done big talk. I got this 17 year old girl sitting in front of me. And my big talk, my bluff just got called. And I said that don't count because those things I always have, they don't have fingernails. I'm not gonna say the word on YouTube. So I was like, let me try it again. And I did it again. I closed my hand like that and it worked better. But nonetheless, the reason I'm telling you that story, besides the fact it's kind of a funny story, embarrassing to me, is I want you to understand the difference in what the family member thinks is about to go down in the session and what's probably going down in the session. Now you might be thinking, well, how is that even therapeutic? Well, number one, I really did want this girl to get pregnant by this 23 year old guy who's a drug dealer because I'm eventually hoping we can get her out of this phase. And I don't want her whole life to be turned upside down in a way that can't be undone, obviously. But what the family wants to be happening in these sessions is they want me to tell her to start being nicer to her mama because she's always arguing with her mama. And then it's back and forth and it's sneaking out and then it's bad behavior. And you got this whole dynamic going on between the parents. And I actually feel stuck in the middle because I'm getting these constant like emails and messages from the family telling me how bad she is and clearly putting the pressure on me to do something about it. And then what I'm hearing from the girl is how ridiculous the parents are being. And honestly, the thing that she's telling about the parents, I'm thinking, yeah, they probably do need to stop yelling her about English because that's the least of our worries. And I'm thinking, yeah, y' all are probably not, not this their fault, but like, y' all are missing the boat here. I'm thinking that about the parents, but I don't see the parents. And I can't really communicate with the parents because I don't want this girl to think I'm a secret spy for the parents. And so I'm like totally stuck in the middle of this situation between with the girl wants and what the family wants. And. And then there's me feeling like really I can't do nothing about none of it. But maybe Joe Scarati's condom. That's about all I can do right now. And that's what's actually happening in the therapy session. In a lot of these cases. It doesn't work like what you think it's going to work like as a family member. Now, this moment that I just told you about, it's an important moment in my journey because this is the day that I realized this setup doesn't work because it wasn't like this is the first time you've had this kid want one thing, this parent wants something else. And then me feeling like I'm not doing anybody much good at all. Because what ends up happening in that situations is when you see young people, the parent just ends up pulling them out of counseling because they're like, I don't know, we're paying for this, not. Not getting better. Because their expectation of what's happening in there is not. Is not reality of what can happen in the session. And a big part of it is just because the girl isn't coming to counseling, telling me I'm here because I want to start, stop acting wild and stop doing drugs, and I need to get away from this bad influence boyfriend I have. That is not what she's coming to tell me. She come and tell me her parents are ridiculous, and she's coming to tell me anything. Mostly because they're making her come. So that's one of the reasons that therapy for addictions don't work. Now, another reason is because not only is the families go and the clients go so different and the. And the counselors just caught in the middle, but also the client's point of view who's addicted is pretty slanted. And so the story that they tell you as the counselor is pretty slanted. Now, sometimes it is slanted on purpose, and they're just trying to lead you all down the wrong path. Number one, because they don't want to address their addiction, so they're trying to minimize it to you. And number two, they're so upset with their family, they're telling you a bunch of negative things about their family. Not necessarily meaning to, but they're sort of splitting you against the, I guess, the family. It's kind of like when you tell a story to your friend, but you leave out a few certain parts of it because you know that if you tell it to the friend this way, you're going to get the response that you want. So when you have clients who are addicted, who are in denial, who aren't ready to change yet, naturally their story is going to be slanted for a lot of reasons. And I haven't even really mentioned the fact that their brain function is so different that there's some actual, like, biological, organic reason why their story slanted that. That don't even have. They don't even have control over. It's just brain stuff that's in another video. But the story they're telling you isn't really the whole story in 99 of the cases. And even though you guys that follow this channel, you've seen all my videos on lies and manipulation and splitting, and you know that I know all these dang tricks do. Guess what? Even though I know all these dang tricks that they do, all the manipulations, all the lies, all the slant of stories, all the pitting its families, guess what? Even to this day, after doing this for 20 years, I probably believe it 9 out of 10 times every time they tell it to me. If I didn't have their family seeing the counselor and I wasn't getting like the whole real story, and not only do I believe it, but there's. I believe it, I think mostly because they believe it and so they're really genuine when they say it to me. So it's hard not to believe, but also because what they're usually telling me is how the family member, the spouse, the parent, who it is, is so controlling me, overreactive, harsh, whatever. And then the family, because they are so upset about it, they're, you know, they're sending me emails and messages and stuff like, like I was getting from these parents. I'll tell you another story about that in a second. That kind of validates what the client is telling me. I'm kind of like, yeah, they kind of are a little extra. Now I know in my head that they probably are extra because the situation is making them extra. But the client's telling me the person's like this. And I'm kind of seeing it from how the family members interacting with me. And I want you to know that in a lot of situations when this is happening, when this person is talking to the therapist, the therapist is going to accidentally be giving really bad advice. If I didn't do it the way I do it now, I promise you, I would be one of those therapists that gives bad advice. In fact, I have to be very careful. In fact, a lot of times I'll say I need a family to come in. Like, if I'm gonna see a person Wednesday, the family's coming on Monday and Tuesday, so I can at least get the whole story because otherwise I'm not going to give effective advice or feedback when I'm not getting the whole story. And I'm inadvertently going to be validating a not so great narrative because I can only work with what I'm being given. So that's another reason counseling doesn't work, because you're not going to get the whole picture from just the person. And, and by the way, it works the same way if I just saw the family and I didn't see the addicted person, I would totally 100 believe their story, which usually isn't accurate either. You know, it's a, it's a big gray area and I need all the puzzle pieces so I can sort of make sense of the situation and figure out how this dynamic is really working. It's not, I'm not just picking on the attic and saying they tell the story wrong. Like everybody tells the story from their point of view and everybody's missing a few pieces when you tell your story. Because that's just natural. We all do that. A similar example of a story. I've seen this young guy who was probably, probably about the same age as that girl. This was a few years later and this kid was doing a lot of marijuana, but. Well, actually he was also selling a lot of marijuana, but the family didn't even know that. And the first time this kid came to me, he was all in his mood in his own, he didn't want to talk to me. But dude, that's the story of my life. Nobody will stop me when they come see me. It doesn't hurt my feelings because I'm just used to it now. My self esteem is just how to get over that. So this young 17 year old boy, he was a soccer player sitting in my office. He didn't want to be there, he didn't talk to me and he was like barely answering my questions. I was trying to be friendly. He's like, yes, no. And so one of the questions I ask when I first start seeing somebody is I say, have you ever seen a counselor before? You ever been in treatment? Like, do you have any experience with this whole therapy, counseling kind of deal? And this kid said, yeah, like a couple months ago my parents made me go see this guy. And I said, well, was it helpful? Was you know, was it good? Was it worthwhile? And he's like, no. And I was like, well, okay, why not? And tells me he said, well, I went into his office and you know what he did? He was all weird and awkward about it, but he's like, stand up, stand up. I didn't know what he was trying to get at. So I stood up. He's like, come in here, come in here. And he had a bathroom that was like attached his office, like a small bathroom. And he made me stand in that bathroom. And it was really weird because I know what's about to happen. And then the man comes in there and he's like, you see this, this is what your jail cell is going to look like. You're gonna have this much room right here. This how you're gonna be living if you don't straighten it up. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is a terrible, I don't know who this counselor was. This was you and you're watching this. I'm, I'm sorry, but that's a terrible, terrible, terrible move. Especially on a first session with some 17 year old boy. So it took me a long time to even get this kid to talk to me. I mean, multiple sessions before he told me anything of any kind of value. Just trying to get him to let the wal that experience he had. So eventually, you know, I'm working with this kid and similar to the girl, which is similar to a lot, I'm getting these emails from the, from the dad again. Only this dad is like Mr. Super Organized dad. He sends me like spreadsheets, like Excel spreadsheets with everything this kid's done, done wrong, every fight this kid's done, have his mom, everything he stole, all the bad things that this kid is doing. And I know that they're wanting me to talk to this kid and say, you need to stop doing that, you shouldn't act that way. And on some level I kind of am, but not in that way that they think. I can tell you what was happening in that session with him, one of those sessions. Well, in a lot of those sessions this kid actually liked to talk to me about he want to be a rapper. And honestly he was telling me for this like months and, and of course I just like went along with it. But in my head I'm like, dude, whether you ain't no rapper, because he looked like a soccer player, not a rapper. And I wasn't believing it. So finally he was talking to me about one day. I was like, well, let me hear something that you've done. And he played me something. I was like actually pretty good. I was actually pretty impressed. So a lot of what this kid would come talk to me about was rapping. And since that's the thing that he cared about, that's the thing I was using to try to get the chip to turn around. I was like, dude, you gotta quit doing these drugs. Like you got a career to make, you know, you gotta go like, like blow up your career. And he was actually pretty good at like online social media marketing. I was like, dude, you could do this, you know? So I'm using the rapping career as a way to kind of lead him in the right direction. I have a feeling if those parents were watching these sessions from like some kind of like two way mirror thing, they would be like appalled at what they're hearing because they're like, I can't believe it was validating that rapping because I mean, it was some language and some not great things, but that was what I had. And that's the thing about addiction counselors. You got to use what you have. And for him, that was a thing that he cared about, that was a motivator for him. So I was trying to use that, which was the only thing I had to, to help him see, well, maybe he needed to reign it in a bit. And so one day he's in my office, he's talking to me, and he's selling weed and he thinks he's so cool. And it's not. I mean, it's not cool. You know, he's just a kid and he's like, shows me these Instagram pictures or Snapchat or something where he's like sitting with a. Holding a bunch of money or something and drugs. I don't know. And I'm like, dude, that's not cool. So anyways, he's telling me about, he's talking about selling drug and he feels like he's just like a big gangster or something, I don't know. And so I'm like, okay, dude, how much money did you make last month? He's like, I don't know, probably like this much. And I. And so I go into this whole thing with this kid about, well, all right, let's get the paper out. Let's have a business plan meeting on this. How much money are you making from this? How much are you smoking? Like, how much profit are you making? Do you have to drive it and drop it off to the person or do they come to you? He's like, well, my phone rings all day, all night, you know, which was kind of proud of at the time. I said, well, I know it's kind of cool right now, but you're probably gonna get tired of that. People hitting you up non stop every day, all day and night. And you're probably gonna get tired of delivering it because you don't feel like I'm not a delivery service. So another thing I'm trying to do with this kid is help them see, like, maybe this isn't the best business plan. Again, I really don't think that's what these parents would be thinking that they're paying for in the counseling. And if they did know that they'd probably be like, oh, you're not going back to her anyways. I would still get these messages from the family on this, and. And I would get, you know, this kid would steal something, and then the mom would confront them, and then the kid would say, I didn't. And then there would be this huge fight, and then they would kick him out. And it was just sort around and around and around we went. And I knew that I wasn't going to get anywhere with this kid if the family didn't get involved, because they needed to understand not that what they were doing was their fault, but that they were sort of gasolining the situation, not meaning to. And this is just another one of those moments of clarity for me that just seeing a client by themselves without having the family involved just doesn't work. So that's my point. Number three is it's not going to work unless the family's involved. But then I run into this other obstacle, because when families call me and I say, well, you know what? I can help you. I think you need to come to counseling. I don't like that. They get a little offended because they think I'm not the one, the problem, the other one the problem. If you just fix them, my life will be fine. And they get a little offended. So it's a little tricky how to get these families involved. But after I saw that curl, I did devise a slightly different plan. And the plan was, all right, I got this intern here, Campbell. She's got sons in recovery. I'm gonna have these parents start talking to Campbell, and while I work with the kids. So we can kind of come at this from a team approach. And it wasn't until I started using that approach that I really saw any kind of progress whatsoever, because I'm telling you, I did it for long enough. Saw individual clients for this issue, and it just doesn't get anywhere. Whether I know the whole story or I don't. I need the family on board, because a lot of times they're accidentally making it worse, or maybe they're not. Maybe they're not making it worse. But there are some things that they could do that might would help me along. I like to say sometimes, like volleyball, like, they set it up, and I knock it over. I set it up, they knock it over. I need that family to be involved, but I definitely don't want to put everybody in the same room, because that definitely doesn't end well. Like the whole traditional family counseling thing. Nightmare. What ends up happening when you do that is either no one says anything real because they don't want to start a fight and argue in front of the therapist and then they leave and nothing gets done, or they come in there and everyone says exactly what they think and exactly what they feel, and nothing but arguing happens in front of the therapist and then they leave feeling worse than they felt when they came. So that doesn't work. So that's why at Hope for Families, that's why we are Hope for Families, because we want to see the whole system. Because I'm telling you, individual counseling with someone who's in denial, who's actively using is not going to be enough. It is not going to work. I'm. I've tried it. If you've tried it, let me know. If you're a counselor and you've tried it, let me know. If you've been to it yourself, let me know. If you're a family member, let me know. Like, does this work? The other thing that family members often think is, is they think this idea of like, the counselor is going to get to the trauma, and once we resolve these trauma issues, the substance abuse is going to go away. Number one, it doesn't work that way because by the time somebody has developed an addiction, it is its own problem. And even if you could get to the trauma and resolved it, the addiction is a thing at this point. It won't just go away because you fixed that. Even if that could happen, which can't happen, because if you have a person dealing with trauma and you're talking to them about their real trauma, like they have PTSD or something, well, all you're doing is constantly dysregulating them in therapy, talking about it. And their only coping skill is to use. So a lot of times you're doing that, the using gets worse because the person isn't stable enough to talk effectively and work through the trauma without needing to use as a coping skill for all the dysregulation that happens. So as you can see, there are just multiple reasons why this traditional idea of you need to go talk to a counselor and sit in a room one on one. I know you think that's going to work, but I want you to think differently about it. It's not that it can't work, but there needs to be some certain ways of going about it and there needs to be some certain criteria. What would be a lot more effective for you guys that are family members is, and you guys are already like 10 if you're watching my videos, you are a thousand miles down the road with this. In fact, sometimes I can do therapy with y' all standing rooms because y' all done the work, because y' all know what to do and you done done it. And then by the time you get them sitting in my chair, I'm like, this is easy. Because they are insightful, they are honest, they are in an active stage of change. So if the family can do the behind the scenes or you can actually set up the situation so that when the person does go to counseling, it actually does work. And a lot of you guys are already doing that, like you're watching my videos or you're in our invisible intervention program. You're doing the stuff that kind of gets out of the way so that they're constantly coming to counseling just to gripe about you. And man, now we can get somewhere. When that happens, the person becomes more insightful, they become more honest. They begin to see that maybe this isn't helping me in my life, maybe this is a problem in my life. And then they actually get to where they do want to talk about it. And so when you have a person come into addiction counseling that actually can talk about what's going on with them, how they feel about it, what they want to change or not change, then you can get somewhere. Because in most any other situation where people come to counseling, they're coming to counseling because they feel like they have a problem, whether it's like depression, a relationship problem, a self esteem problem. So they're pretty open about talking about that problem, and they're pretty open to trying some things because they want that problem to be better. But it is different with addiction because a lot of people come sit in my office, they don't think they have a problem or they think they have a problem, but they don't think the problem is what you think the problem is. And they're probably missing the point here. And they definitely don't want it to be better. And counseling can only work with someone who's open to change and has the ability to self reflect and be insightful. So that's what I mean when I'm telling you addiction counseling can make things worse. It can dysregulate trauma, or the counselor can accidentally be falling into a not so great narrative. The counselor can accidentally be validating the person's sort of storyline about how negative you are and thereby like not just missing it, but. But making this not true storyline even worse by feeding into it. They don't mean to do that. But you can only work with what the client gives you. And I'm telling you, most of the time, they believe that. So it's easy for you to believe. You guys know that I know all the tactics, but if I didn't have Campbell and Kim and Scott and my family counselors helping me, telling me some of the other stuff, I would definitely fall into it. I still fall into it. And if I didn't have them, I don't know where I would get. So before you go and tell them you have to go to counseling or, you know, you.

You.

I'll pay your car payment as long as you're going to therapy, think about it further. You could be paying a lot of money for something that's making it worse. Not that the counselor's bad, not that. Not even that you have the wrong counselors. It's just the nature of addiction that you have to think about differently. All right, we are about to get to some comments and questions, and if you guys want to, we'll even let someone come on here and share a little bit with us like we've done the past few times. So if you want to come on and share something about your story or ask a question or get some feedback in person, then what I want you to do is I want you to guess a number between 1 and 100 and put it in the chat, and I will do the random number picker, and we'll pick somebody to come on here. And there may not be anybody that wants to do that, and that's fine. You are going to need a decent Internet connection and some kind of light source so that we can see you in the Internet so that it's at least strong enough so that we don't lose you or disconnect from you, because you will be on here live. So before you put a number up there, realize, like, this is public, okay? And so you don't share anything that you don't want out there public. Just. Just telling you. And so in the meantime, we're going to take some questions, and I'll also let you know that just this week on the 1st, we opened up our new membership program, which is a great way to support this channel. If you find value about these videos, then not only being a member will help support, it helps us to continue to create all this free content, but also the membership is a chance to go deeper into these skills that we teach on the channel. It's a. It's a way to go deeper in and learn more, use more tactics, skills, and really focus in on your own personal self growth. And the coolest, My favorite thing about the new program is that all of the whole team is going to be involved in it. Me, Kim Campbell, everybody's going to be creating content for it. Everybody's going to be on the live calls. And so you're going to be getting access to like the whole team, which is kind of cool to have a lot of different perspectives on any given issue. The more perspectives you got, hopefully one of them you'll like and one of them fit for your situation. I see a question here. Chat only about kids or is a partner? Partner is totally okay. I know the stories I told you were about kids today, but these days I pro. I do see a lot more adults than kids. But you can go either which way, because in the office, we deal a lot with teenagers, young adults and adults all alike. So we go either which way. So put your numbers in there if you want to come on 1 to 100. I only put a number in there once. Don't try to put you like 10 numbers in there. Increasing your chances. Let's be fair. What's that? Right. In the meantime, let's look at some comments and say hello to some people. All right. Hey, creative renewal. I see you were the first one on here. Elliot and Jessica, you're saying this is your first live video. Welcome, welcome. We are glad you're here. So excited you made it live. Hey, Debbie. Hey, Jennifer. Jennifer says your videos helped me so much. My son has been in treatment three times, has a baby on the way in April, just out of treatment in June, and had a hot UA yesterday and back in jail. I'm guessing what you're saying there is hot UA means a positive drug test. I'm super sorry to hear that, Jennifer. I hope that these videos are helping you and helping you figure out how to navigate those difficult kind of situations. Susan says, funny story. I'm sure you're probably talking about the condom one, right? I know it's embarrassing. You should have seen Campbell's face. I'm surprised you didn't drop out of counseling school and be like this one. Counseling school for it was a mess, but it's funny. Let's see here. Hey, Nikki. Nikki says, how do you find a group that takes a family approach? My expense appearance is definitely rare to find. You're right, Nikki. And honestly, that's a good question because I don't. I don't know anyone else in our area that does it the way we do it. In fact, I just sort of made up the approach myself because I did it so many times the other way, and it just didn't work. So I really created our approach sort of uniquely, just out of need. But what I can tell you is the closest thing to what we do is if you find a provider that practices the craft method, they can definitely help you with that. And I'll go back after the video and put in the description a link to a site that is designed to help families find providers who use craft. And I can't think of the name off the. I think it's called Helping families find help or something. But I know I'm not saying that exactly right. So I'll post the link afterwards, and they can connect you with different CRAFT providers in your area, which is probably the closest thing to what I'm talking about. Renee says, my son did counseling for two and a half years but was actively drinking and it did not work. He says it doesn't work, so he sees no reason to try again. I hear that kind of thing a lot. Not a couple weeks ago, I was talking to this young adult guy. Well, I guess I think he was in his 30s or something, and he was like. I could hear him saying to his loved one as he's, like, getting on the zoom call with me, I could hear him saying, like, I don't know why this talking to somebody's gonna help. That's a pretty common thing. I think he didn't know I was on there yet. So he didn't know. He didn't know I was hearing him say that. But it doesn't surprise me. It just kind of cracks me up, actually. But one of the ways that I help people initially is whatever their frustration is, I help fix it for them. So if it's the family problem, if it's a legal problem, and it. It may not necessarily make the addiction go away, but the person feels like whatever is happening is helpful. And once they feel that way, then they're really open to the process, and then the other work can happen. So I try to make sure. No matter what, I try to make sure a person has a good experience with counseling. Even if I know it's not the end, even if I know, you know, they're just beginners in this game, this isn't going to fix it. I really want them to have a good experience because later on when they. If they need help or they, you know, come to an impasse and they need to go to counseling or something, then they're not going to be afraid of it and they will feel like it's helpful. Shelly says my ad is that alcoholic daughter refuses to sign HIPAA on anything involving mental health, but wants me to go to every medical appointment. Roughly 80 to 90 medical appointments a year, plus three psychiatric and 10 psychologist appointments a year. That's interesting. I have seen that, but not very often where the person wants their family to come. And I actually try not to let that happen when possible. Even though I like for the family to be involved, I don't like for the family to be in the session. And the reason I don't like for the family to be in a session is I can be a lot straighter and more direct with the person if you're not in there. I can be a lot straighter and more direct with you if they're not in there. Because I'm not going to call out or confront either side really heavy with the other side sitting there. Because I know as soon as you walk out, then that's going to start an argument between you and then it's going to be like, oh, Amber's on my side, not your side. And so I always say, I'll get, I'll get. We'll get this done 10 times faster if I can just see them or just see you. But when you're in the same room, I spend all my time sort of managing yalls energy to each other. Try not to make things worse or trying to de escalate fights. That is really slows down the process. So sometimes people are feel nervous about coming and so they want their loved one in there for the first session just because they're like, especially if they've never done it before. And so sometimes I'll let that happen. But other than that, I like, I like to see the person because there might be something your daughter needs to tell the psychiatrist or therapist that she's not going to tell with you sitting right there. Or there might be something the therapist or the psychiatrist needs to tell your person that she's not going to tell with you sitting right there because she doesn't want to start a fight or she doesn't want to ask a question knowing that maybe you don't know a certain something. So I get it, I get why maybe she wants you to come.

But.

But my personal opinion is I don't like for that to happen. In fact, I have a rule. My clients and I say, this is our rule when they first come and say if your loved one is ever going to come with you, then I'm gonna need you to tell me and send me a text and tell me ahead of time. Because when I go out there to get my person and their loved one is sitting there, I'm like, oh, God. Oh, no. Because it always means my person's done. Done something wrong, and the loved one is coming in to tell me all the bad things they did. And that never goes well because it.

It.

It's just not good because the person. Then the person is sitting there feeling like two people are against them because they're just sitting there, and all their bad stuff's being told right in front of them. It's just. It's just not therapeutic that way. So I'm like, if it's gonna happen, you better tell me first, because I can't even have your back. I don't know what's. What you done did. So that's kind of a running thing. I have my people, so sometimes it does happen, but they'll send me a text, hey, my mom's coming. I did this, or I didn't do this or whatever. Give me a heads up. Jolene says, love hearing all this. I had one call with you, with me, and it was super helpful. I've become inspired and started schooling with the goal of pursuing addictions counseling. Hey, that's wonderful. I hope I didn't discourage you by saying addiction counseling doesn't work. It does, but you got to be careful about it, and you gotta, like, create the right situation and circumstances. Because telling you. I know. I know that I have done some injustices in the past. I know that I have been not the greatest counselor, and at best, I know that it's been ineffective when I didn't do the family model, because you just. What are you gonna. There's just not a lot that you can affect in an addiction kind of situation. Other situations. It works. Okay. All right, I see that we have at least one number. I'm gonna give you guys five extra seconds to put a number up without getting numbers. Then, Barbara, you win by default. I'm gonna go ahead and get the link to put up there. All right, here comes the link. This link that I'm putting in the chat. You'll just need to click it. Oh, we got another number. We got 21. So we got some numbers. I am going to pull up my random number picker, then find it looking at my phone. If y' all are wondering. Here we go. Random number picker. We gotta shake it. It's gonna get a number, so we'll see who's closest. All right. The number is 69. So that means, Barbara, you're right on it because you're 67. That's pretty close. All right, Barbara, if you'll hit the link, I'll put it here again just in case you missed. Will put you right on here with me live. And we'll have it. We'll have a conversation and see if we can help. Help get you some feedback. All right, Elliot and Jessica says all your live videos on Thursdays. Yes, I know you're saying 10am They're 1A. They're 1. They're 1pm Where I am, which must. I don't know where you are, but it must be 10 where you are. So it's, it's 1:00pm Eastern. So if you're in a different time zone, you may have to do some calculations, but they're always at this time, Catherine says, asking what to say to him when he calls without asking him to go to detox. Sober house. Maybe, Catherine, I'm jumping in on your conversation that maybe it's been going on. I missed a part. All right, here we go. We got Barbara with us. Here we go. Hey.

Hi. Thank you.

Thanks for joining us. It takes a lot of guts to get on here. Yeah, I have guts.

That's. Tenacity is probably one of my worst faults.

Is it? Well, not today. It's gonna be a good thing today. Good.

I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you so much.

Tell us about your situation and what, what we can help you with.

Okay, so I am the adult child of alcoholics and a lot of dysfunction and I am with a person that is also an adult child of alcoholics and lots of dysfunction and I mean, just ugly, ugly, ugly stuff like, you know, partner swapping in our parents generation and all that stuff. So ugly, ugly. He grew up in poverty. I grew up in a middle class and when I say poverty, he lived in campsites and that kind of thing.

Severe. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah. So really, really significant, you know, damage for both of us that we, you know, didn't even really start to work on until we got together. And when we got together, we got together in a very codependent way in a very codependent family environment with my parents and so just toxic and ugly all around. The thing that, you know, I sort of wanted to talk about is we, we really wanted to do well by our children. We had a, we each had a child before we got married. We each had been divorced and through, you know, lots of turmoil around our first partners, but they were Both long term relationships. Our children were one year apart. And so we really were committed to trying to give them a better, you know, start. And it has worked. They're both college graduates. I mean, we did, we did, we did okay.

Yeah, for sure.

Unfortunately, it wasn't pretty. Our children are not, what I would say, like, we're not tight because there's still, you know, a lot of resentments about things that, that they were exposed to that did happen. Not necessarily, you know, about their dad or me, just the whole dynamic. So lots of, lots of mess. It was very messy, very messy. So early on because we knew we really wanted to do well. We tried hard to work on things. He was an active alcoholic when I met him. He had been running a recovery house. And I thought what that meant was he was on top of his game. You know, it's different coming as a child of an alcoholic and then entering a primary relationship with an alcoholic. What you understand is very different.

And what you expect from a parent is very different than what you expect from a spouse.

Right, right. Yeah. So it just, you know, so what we did is first we tried to go see a counselor for one of the children because the child was struggling. And we took custody sort of in an emergency situation, his son. And it brought, you know, a lot of our family dynamics to the table. And while we were working with the son, we decided to go ahead and start marriage counseling also. So there was just a lot of trying to work on things all at once. I think it caused my husband to relapse and. And so then it, you know, I had no, I mean, slammed. I had no concept having walked in. And it was like the third year of our marriage. So, you know, and I have so many people that are like, I mean, this is 15 years now. People are, you know, asking me, telling me to bail on things, things like that. And I have twice. So the long story is we went to the marriage counseling. I ended up staying with the marriage counselor as my personal counselor because he bailed on it. He did exactly what you said. It became combative, you know, and then when he got really out of control, he lost his job. I started carrying the financial burdens. And then my mother, who we were living with because we were. We moved into their home in order for them to be able to retire and travel. Okay. And it was a beautiful home in a nice area. It's where I grew up. And my daughter ended up graduating from my own. My own high school. So it was, you know, it was all very, I thought, set Up. Right. It was well planned. We had the support of my parents, but my mom got cancer, and so that was just another stress, you know. And then my husband, because he wasn't working, we put, you know, sort of on him to help my parents where he could. So a lot more turmoil. And then my birth father, because I have a stepfather and a birth father, started to relapse on his own addiction, which was meth method.

Okay. It's just like piling and piling.

Yeah, piling. And so I know that it's a lot, and I. And I feel like we just can't get a breath. So then I was employed with a really, you know, generous employer with a good benefits package. We put him into a outpatient counseling program and they invited me in to work with him. And sort of like you were saying, we had our individual sessions, but then when we tried to have a session together, it caused everything to go sideways. I mean, in a really bad, bad way, like. But he felt betrayed by his counselors. And then on top of that, he was struggling to get medications balanced and all these things. So it's just been a real mess. As a result of his stuff, my stuff, my parents stuff. I ended up having major depressive disorder and I went into the same program that he had been in two years prior. And then my mother died just right after all of that. So codependent dad needed to take care of all his stuff. Nobody was taking care of us. We were taking care of everything. You know what I mean? So it was a real mess. And then my dad got into an accident and we were taking care of him for four months.

Oh, my goodness.

And so, you know, it's just perpetual, perpetual, perpetual, perpetual. And so ultimately we just. The kids graduated and we beat feet out of there as quickly as I could because of some, you know, other issues that have nothing to do with my alcoholic, but all of the crazy behind it has to do with my family of origin and the crazy that was going on with them. So I said, time. Time for Barbara to get out of there. And so I took Richard with me. Initially. I left a year ago. It's been almost a year and a half now. Went to an entirely different place, two hours away, and tried to restart my whole life and brought Richard with me because I ended up living with. It's tight housing here. I ended up living with a man that I thought had Alzheimer's. It turned out to be alcohol related dementia.

Okay.

I couldn't handle it. And so I'm like Richard. So I brought him with me, and he did well for about two months and then relapsed with the alcoholic gentleman.

Okay.

So I ended up leaving that situation a year ago. We were apart for eight months, and then his son graduated. And I saw the pictures, and I stupidly reached out, reattached, and we're back together in this small town, and I'm getting ready to sign a year's lease with him, and I'm just. I. I'm literally three days away from, oh, my God, what do I do, what do I do, what do I do? And. And I get those same kind of things when I try to be proactive with them. Now that you're talking about the resistance, and I mean, part of it is he's working. He's trying to hold, you know, the stressors of life that we all do. So I just really don't know. You know, and I love the fact that you're. You're. We've got all these things on. On all of these. I mean, I listen to other people about my childhood wounds and my attachment problems, and you're the. You are my source for trying to figure out how to deal with, you know, him and me, because we both have codependency issues and wounds, and I don't. And initially, way back when he was in that outpatient program, I think the reason that he was so pissed is because they were trying to get us to live separately so that he could be in recovery living. And I supported it. And he took that as a betrayal.

Yeah. And honestly, it's probably so what, they wanted him to go to sober living is what it was. Is that what you're saying? And they. Okay, so they weren't trying to get you divorced, but they were trying to say he needs to be in sober living. You guys don't need to be, like, living in the house, hashing out the marriage stuff while he's so vulnerable, I'm guessing.

Right. And he couldn't handle that. That just was. I don't know if it was. I mean, part of it, I think, is, you know, the codependency on each other. But I think the other thing is, is that he just didn't want to be. So.

No, he doesn't want to go. Well, it may not have even been he didn't want to be sober, but he didn't want to go sober living for sure, because who does?

Right?

And so I totally get that. And that's kind of why we do. That's kind of a big reason why we chew ours the way we do, because even we do meet sometimes with the whole family. But when that happens is like each person comes with their own counselor and we call it lawyering. Because especially what happens to the addicted person, they feel ganged up on. Now a lot of times, like if I were his counselor, I'd probably be thinking he doesn't go to sour living. Right. And, and I know that maybe like Kim or Campbell, whoever's seeing you, that are the spouse, they know that too. But I'm gonna let them play that corner and I'm gonna advocate for my guy because that's what I'm in there to do. And I'm in there not, not to sort of enable, but to help that point get her. Because when you're the addicted person, you literally have no credibility. And there's some good reasons for that. But. But there are some valid points that they have. But because they have this bad history, it's like having bad credit rating, you know, you just get nothing. So I'm there to kind of pull out the pieces that probably do have credibility and sort of speak up for them. Because my guess is that's what happened is he felt like his counselor chose your side.

I mean, mine too.

Right? Right, right. So and, and if I. Even if. And a lot of times I am in agreement that this is what the person needs to do, I would probably say that like in the one to one session, not like, because they just feel totally like out there on. I think in a. When everybody's in the room, it's this delicate process. So we do put everybody in the room, but we're super careful about it and we have super, like, here's what's going to happen and a plan. We don't just like, something bad happened now we're going to throw you in the room. We're all going to talk about it. Now if something bad happened, we need to talk about it. Then you're gonna meet with your person. You're gonna meet with your person and we're gonna talk about it. And then we're gonna have a plan coming in here because otherwise it can make things worse. There probably are some family counselors who are more skillful than I am who can balance all those pieces, but I can't. I gotta have like, you know, it's. The counselor ends up having to sort of pick a side at some point with this, you know, and then somebody feels betrayed.

Right. And that's. Right. And then where we're both really highly, I don't know, dysregulated by everything we were going through. I. I feel really bad. We also brought our pastor into it. Our church got involved. It was a lot of trauma to try to work on our trauma. I don't know how to explain that, but. So I thought that, you know, walking away was going to be the right way to go. And when we did reconnect, I said to him, you realize right now that I am the addict that is relapsing. You are my addiction.

Right.

And me coming back to you is relapsing. And it's. I feel like I keep asking him permission, like, to. To get healthy. Does that make sense? Like, can we please.

Because I'm like. It's like asking the drug dealer permission to stop using drugs.

Right, Right.

A little bit. When you said that. Yeah, I could see that.

Yeah.

Yeah. What I would say is good about your situation, because I'm. I'm about to have to hop off here because I have a session, but I do want to say something in it. You both are. I haven't met him, but my guess is you both have a lot. Probably a lot more insight than most people coming in because you've done a lot of work, because he has worked as a counselor. So you're both coming in with a lot more knowledge, which I think is super helpful. But also for him, might be a little bit of a roadblock. Because. Because I think it makes it even more complicated. If you were in recovery for a long time and you were working in a treatment center, that makes it really hard.

He was running a house, which you made the same assumption I did.

Okay. Either which way, when you've been in that authority role, or even if, like, you're just sponsoring a bunch of guys, it's even harder to step back in there and, like, take your white chip or take, you know, like that.

Yeah. He doesn't embarrass me. Yeah. He doesn't admit that he should take a white chip.

Right, Right. So there. It's kind of good in some ways in that he knows recovery has insight. And then there's some things about it that might make it. It a little more difficult. Not impossible or anything. Like, I've dealt with that before, but it's complicated. But you both have insight.

Yeah.

Which is good. And I don't know who you watch. Like you said, you have people you watch for, like, childhood drama, But I really like. Like, the crappy childhood fairy is really good. Huh. And I like Patrick T. Han, I think is his name. I like him a lot, too. Those are my really good complex trauma people. Childhood.

Yeah, right, right, right. But we're both also getting to be a certain age, you know what I mean? And it's hard. So I don't know. I think, I guess the question is, you know, for me, is therapy even? Should we go that route anymore? Should we just try to work on ourselves? Should I run?

Is he still actively drinking or using?

I believe that he is hiding actively drinking.

Okay.

So he's not like he was when he was, you know, like in 2017, when he was so bad that, you know, it was. I mean. And when he does actively drink, he does crazy things like car rages and then, you know, just weird.

Okay.

Police have shown up at my door because he, he can't handle. He just. He goes zero to crazy.

I probably wouldn't do like a traditional couples counselor because I just think that's going to end up as a mess because they're either not going to pick up on the addiction part and not address it, or they're going to. But addressing the addiction with him with you in the room is gonna ignite things. So, you know, because he's gonna feel ganged up on. So I probably wouldn't go that route. I probably. I think getting your own counseling separately would be good. Or maybe him being in his own addiction counseling or something like that. Because he's got to have some level of insight.

Right.

Because he's been through the process before.

Is that something that your service offers? Like you can say, my husband and I are signing up.

We do like, we can't do long term counseling with people that are out of state. What we can do is like short term consultation and coaching. So sometimes we're good to maybe talk to both of you and do almost more like an assessment and make a recommendation. Because a lot of times I. I can talk to somebody and I can figure out where they're at in their stages of change, what their personality characteristics are, and what might be the best pathway as far as making a recommendation. That usually works pretty good.

Yeah. So how do you think. I mean, is this an uncommon. I mean, oh, my gosh. It was like two tornadoes joined together, created a huge funnel cloud. We spit out some great things.

I wouldn't say uncommon. I think it happens a lot. And these situations we see, they're always messy. I mean, it's just a big mess and you have to untangle it piece by piece by piece. But the substance use is the big piece that does kind of have to usually get dealt with first. Because nothing else going to untangle while that's happening. Well, right.

And that's, and that's hard because you have to own it and he's not owning it. It. Right.

But so, so that could mean, you know, that would make, you know, that would play into my recommendation if where someone's at in their stage of change. Like, even if I had something before and I thought he needed to go to sober living, but I knew he was nowhere close to being accepted, then there's no sense of me pushing it because all I'm going to do is make them bad. So I'm going to make a decision not just based on what they need, but also what's going to work and what I'm can get them willing to do. There's just so many pieces that you have to like, like, okay, sort through to figure it out. Because anybody can look at somebody else and say that person has got a treatment. How do you get them to do it? And how do you present it in a way that's gonna. It's just complicated.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know if this was helpful to your viewers, but at least it should be good for them to know that this mess is not uncommon.

That's right. I bet they're right there with you. I know I am. Thank you so much, Barbara. We appreciate your courage coming on here.

Thank you for your time. I appreciate you and continue to do your great good work. Thank you so much.

All right, guys, I'll see you next Thursday, 1pm Eastern. And don't forget, in the description is the link for the membership. And now is a great time to join because it is super, super inexpensive right now. All right, see you next time. Bye, everybody.