The Art of Influence: How to Inspire Change Without Pressure

The very first step to influencing someone to change for their own good in a positive way or persuading them is to actually get them to let their guard down. And so many times I see or I hear about people trying to persuade someone they care about, a friend, a loved one, a co worker, they're trying to persuade someone in a positive direction from the right place in their heart. But they're, but they're wanting it so much that they're rushing the process and they're just trying to sort of like push the information in or hurry this person along and they're not stopping long enough to pay attention to. Is the wall, is the guard even down enough to be able to like get some new information into this person? Is the guard down enough for this person to even be able to be open to any kind of discussion with me? Or are they just going through the motions of this conversation, but really they're shut down? Too often we don't, we don't pay attention to the body language, the non verbal cues that the people that we care about are giving us because we have an agenda and we're trying to push something along. And that's not necessarily from a bad place. I mean, it's oftentimes usually from a very good place. But we're rushing it and we're not paying attention to those cues. You know, if someone's just giving you the huh, huh, huh, it's not working. If someone is saying to you, yeah, you're right, it's not working. You know what you're right means? You're right means. Okay, okay, okay, I've had enough listening to you. Can this conversation be over? That's what that means. And maybe even they even believe that you're right, but they're still annoyed with the conversation. And you probably haven't changed anything in their way of thinking and for sure haven't changed anything in their way of decision making or behaviors. You have to get the guard down. So that's what I want to talk to you guys about in today's video. Now, I know that the majority of you here watching are watching because you're trying to influence someone to change, usually an addicted loved one to change. But no matter what your situation in life, we all have the need to be more persuasive. We all have people that we care about that we're trying to lead in the right direction. We need to be persuasive in our jobs with our children. Learning to be persuasive will help you maximize pretty much every area of your life. And the skills aren't complicated. They're just a little bit unnatural. And by unnatural, I mean you kind of have to go against your instincts to some degree to be really precise. But once you do it long enough, it becomes your new instinct, and it becomes easier and easier and easier. One of the big mistakes that you might be making, that's not allowing the person that you're trying to help to get their guard down is, is that you're not seeing the situation from their perspective. You're trying to push your own agenda on them. You're trying to push them to change for the reasons that you think are important. And you're not taking the time to figure out what they think is important. Because we think that we know best and we kind of have this deep down secret thought inside that the person we're dealing with, we don't, we just, we don't give them credit for being smart enough to solve their own problems because we're like, well, you're in this problem, obviously. You know, I mean, I hate to say it, but on some level we think, you know, you're just not smart enough, you're just dumb, or you just don't get it, or you're just lazy or whatever it is. But that's not true in almost all cases. In my experience, people pretty much know how to solve the problems that they have. Sometimes they're not motivated enough. Sometimes they think that maybe they're not strong enough or they don't have enough belief in themselves. There's some reasons why maybe they're not solving that problem, but it's not because they don't get it, and it's not because they're dumb. So one of the very first things you can do is change the way that you are thinking about this other person. If you don't have conviction and belief in what you're trying to influence, and conviction and belief in the fact that this other person can and will make this change, rise to the occasion, become a better person. It's not going to work because. And when we're influencing someone, we're persuading someone, it's really a transfer of conviction from one person to another person. And if you aren't truly convicted inside, like, as in you don't believe it, it's not going to transfer. Well, even if you use all of my skills, all my techniques, you're an invisible intervention. You're practicing them, you got the worksheets, you're doing it all. If you, if your energy is not Right. And your core's not right, your inside's not right. It's. It's going to be a much less effective. So you've got to believe that what you're trying to influence this person to do is the best for them. Not for you, but for them. And also that this person that you care about has the strength and the qualities that they need and the wisdom that they need to pull this off. So you gotta. You gotta get your head right. And that's hard when you're dealing with an addicted loved one. Because probably you've seen them make mistake after mistake after mistake, and you've seen them have bad judgment over and over and over again. So if you're struggling with this, what I'd like you to do to get your own conviction right, is to think about who this person really is. Try to look past the addicted self of them and the real self. See if you can separate those pieces out. Because a lot of these behaviors and bad decisions and bad judgments that you're seeing, they're not really natural traits of this person. They're just natural traits of addiction. Like, you could take any addictive person, and they're probably going to have the same judgment, make the same decisions and the same behaviors, no matter how old they are, where they came from, how much money they have, all that kind of stuff. It is a symptom of addiction. So try to separate out the addicted piece and the real human being inside. And when you can reconnect with that person that you really know, you're going to have more conviction, you're going to believe in them more and more. Because one of the things eventually you have to do is you have to help this up. This person, the person trying to help separate those two things out, right? So that they can see that they have the strength. Once you get your heart right and you get your conviction right, and you're coming from a place of genuine love and a positive place, you got your energy right? Then you can go to the next step of getting their guard down, which is looking at not just their perspective, but taking a few minutes to figure out what is this person's narrative about themselves. Way too often when you're trying to get someone to change, what we do is we try to tell them how they're misbehaving, and we try to tell them how they're making bad decisions, and we try to tell them how they're messing things up for themselves and for us. And so when you're pushing this narrative on someone, like, why do you keep messing it up? I really thought you were going to do this. You didn't come through me with me on that. And you're pressing this narrative on them that they are a bad person. Guess what? It's not a very great narrative. It's not a great storyline. So they're very likely to reject it because on some level they don't, they don't see the full complexity of what's going on with them right now. And they still see themselves as their real, true, natural self. They still see themselves as loving, caring, hard working, well intentioned, giving all those things that the person probably realized that is their viewpoint of themselves. It's not that they think that they're all great. They know that they have flaws. We all know that we have flaws, but we all kind of know our intention and in our heart, who, who we are. And if you're trying to convince someone of something that's different than that, they're just not going to accept it. And, and it's why you feel like you beating your head against the wall. So if you stop for a minute and you ask yourself, how does this person see themselves really besides the addicted bad behavior? Because they're going to have a million reasons for the addicted bad behavior and a big one of those reasons is going to be somehow your fault. So just skip past that. Okay, and how do they see themselves? Do they see themselves as artistic? Do they see themselves as a really hard worker? They, a loving husband, compassionate, giving. What is their narrative about themselves? How do they see their strengths? And instead of trying to speak to them about what they're doing wrong and how they're messing it up and you're sort of trying to push them into change. By doing that, you're going to influence or persuade them into change by helping them reconnect with who they really are. What we, we get caught up in seeing what's happening wrong and we comment on that and we forget to comment on what's right. And I know that sometimes there's not a lot of right in there. So you may have to look hard and find that one little seed of something good, positive, a good decision, a good day, whatever it is, and you want to pull from that. And instead of reminding them how they're bad, remind them of how they're good. Because guess what? That's a likable storyline. If you come up to me and you start telling me how wonderful I am, I'm. I'm way more likely to want to accept that version than if you Tell me how terrible and crappy I am. Not that I think that I don't do anything bad, because I definitely have flaws, but more that I know in my heart where I'm coming from. And most people in their heart believe and probably are coming from a genuine place. So reconnect them to that. You know, I say things to my clients like, you know, first is I see who they are. I find their genius, as I call it, and I speak to that. And it. When someone feels like you see them, the good parts of them, first of all, you get, like, a lot of dopamine. So there's some brain science in this. And you get some good serotonin because you're feeling seen, understood. You're feeling like someone thinks positively of you. They see the good parts of you. So immediately their guard is down. Once you can do that. And they're like, they want to hear what you have to say, because you're usually telling them things that they want to hear. And it's not so much you tell them everything they want to hear. Even when you tell them things they don't want to hear, you tell it to them in a way that is palatable, but you remind them of who they are. So, like, if I have a client that comes in and messes up, instead of, like. And they'll come and they'll tell me. It's almost like it feels like they're giving confession. You can sort of see it on their face before they even, like, disclose anything to you. Like, I can just, like, hear it in their voice. They usually like, if it's on Zoom or it's in person, there's usually like a. At the beginning of the session, I say, oh, what's going on? I can see the look. And they'll kind of, like, shake their head and kind of grin this little mischievous grin, and then they'll start, like, their confession, and they'll say, I. I know I told you I was going to drink this weekend, but I did. And not only did I do it, I overdid it. And, you know, my wife found out and whatever, whatever. And instead of focusing on that thing that went wrong, I will focus on an empathetic statement. I'll say, oh, my gosh, my heart hurts for you because you were so close. Like, you'd gained so much trust with your wife, your family. You're doing so good, and I know that this is what you meant to happen. Imagine if you're seeing that part of them, how they're going to be so much More receptive to hearing what comes next. Because once I do all that, then I can say, all right, let's just figure out what happened in a, in a practical, non judgmental kind of way. And like, well, this and this and this and, and even when they're telling me what happened, I'm looking for the things that went right as well as the things that went wrong. And because I've got their guard down, they're willing to look at hard things. And I know on these videos I talk about being positive and positive reinforcement, support and all that kind of stuff, but I would say that as a recovery coach or counselor, whatever, I'm pretty direct. My clients will tell you it's, I'm definitely their advocate. They definitely know I'm on their side, but I will tell them what they need to hear very directly. But I have the rapport to do it. I wouldn't do it without the rapport. Now sometimes I mess this up, I messed this up this week. I, I, this was probably my sixth or seventh session with this particular person. And, and I knew that I had a really good rapport going with this person and, and things were going good for them and they were doing good. But I know I have a tendency to be sort of sassy and sarcastic, and this particular person is slightly more sensitive than most of my clients. Like most of my clients, I can sort of poke fun at them. And this client said something to me and I said something back which was kind of sassy. I was like, oh, you can't do that. Like this was a guy. And I was like, oh, that's a girl game, like we invented that or something. And I could see immediately, like his face drop. And it's because I wasn't paying attention to this specific person in front of me well enough. I just sort of said that I could have said that to 10 other clients and it wouldn't have been a big deal. But this particular person just has a sensitivity and it's because they judge themselves too harshly is what it is. And so it, it doesn't take a lot to make this person feel defeated. And I could see it on their face, and I knew it immediately. And so I start trying to go into damage control. And I think I pulled it out a little bit, but I know that I've put that little seed of doubt. Those of you who are in our invisible intervention program, we talk about building credibility and we talk about it like it's a credit score, like a real credit score, but it's like a trust Credit score in this example. And so we talk. Actually, in the invisible intervention, I'll show you how to, like, calculate it. If you say or hear certain things, you get plus so many points. And if you say or hear so many things, you get minus so many points. And literally when I was talking to this person I watched, I could visually see my credit score drop, like 25 points. I was like, dang, I'm gonna have to make that up. If you're in the invisible intervention and you're following the credit score plan, let me know what, let me know what your credit score is. Just pop it in the comment section or the chat section there. Let me see where you're at in your credit score because it goes up and down. And the good thing is, is you can mess it up. I mess it up. But I. I know I had enough credit trust in that bank that I'm. We're gonna survive that. It's gonna be no big deal. We're gonna move past it. But I'm gonna have to gain that ground back because I could feel the wall go up just a little bit because it's a protective mechanism. And I have to prove that I understand where they're coming from and that I'm a safe person. There's absolutely no sense in trying to tell someone what they need to do and what they need to change when their wall is up. And the way to get that down is to be a safe person. And the way to be a safe person is to understand their point of view and help them reconnect with who they see themselves as. The. The best part of who they see themselves as. If. If you're trying to help your husband out, and your husband, he stayed sober for eight days and then he got high on day nine, you can focus on that and you can say, it's all right. I know you're trying your best. Actually, you did, you know, you did eight days of really good. I could see that your son, whatever his name is, Charlie, or whatever, was really responding to you differently. I know you're going to beat this because I know how important being a father is to you because of what you went through to your childhood. That's an example of what I mean, to connect somebody back to their narrative. If you jump in there because this person had a mess up on day nine and you start telling them what a piece of crap father they are and that, you know, they get their kids hopes up and then they crash them down or whatever, they're not going to want to hear that and they're going to shut you out because in their mind they're doing their best. And in their mind they're coming from a place of good intention. So if you hear nothing else of what I ever teach you, it is c things from their perspective. And once you can do that, you'll feel like it's so much easier and the person will respond to you so much differently. It makes learning all those other skills I teach a lot easier because you don't feel like there's this animosity between you. You feel like there's this real sort of team aspect of you're both on the same team. And maybe you mess up every now and then, and maybe they mess up every now and then, but you're still pulling forward. We have to learn how to do that just like our loved one. If they're addicted, they probably see you as controlling, negative and critical. Do you see yourself that way? Probably not. You may have an idea that you can be those things sometimes, but you probably tell yourself, and there may be some truth in it, that you're only that way because they're acting like a complete fool and they're not controlling themselves or something like that. And there may be some truth in that, but you can see how if your loved one is trying to impress that narrative or point of view on you, your guard is up because in your heart you know that you have nothing but positive intentions for them and that you're just doing your best to try to help them. And you know you may mess up, but you know in your heart you're not trying to control someone else. You're trying to lead them in the right direction so that they can have all of the wonderful things that they want in in their life, whether that's your kid, your husband, your sister, your parent, your co worker, whoever that. And so you're going to reject that narrative of being that person even if you know, okay, every now and then I can be that way. Just like your person you're trying to help is going to reject a negative narrative if you try to put it on them. And in fact, if they don't reject it, it's even worse because if they're just accepting that narrative and they see themselves as a completely terrible person with bad intentions who's never going to get it right, and they, and then you say those things to them and they like, pull that in and they hear that and they believe you on that. What happens is that they give up. That is not a good place to. For someone to be so trying to convince someone that they're totally screwing things up. They're a bad husband, they're a bad dad, they're a bad wife, mother, whatever. It's a bad plan because if you convince them of that, they're going to quit trying. You don't want to convince them of that. So if they're rejecting that, that's good. You're still in a good place. You still have some leverage and influence in a good way. You just have to switch around the way that you're trying to actually deal with that. In just a second, we're going to hear from our people that are on live. Hey, those of you that are here live, thanks for hanging out with me. I appreciate you showing up on Thursdays. If you're watching the playback, hey, we're glad that you're here, too. Feel free to join the conversation. I read every single comment. I promise. I can't answer. Answer as many as I can, but I read all of them. So jump into the conversation and if you want to join us live. We're live on Thursdays at 1 Eastern and we would love to have you here with us. As always, there are more resources in the description. We've got free downloadable resources. We've got. You can look at our invisible intervention program. If you're not in it. If trying to influence is what you're trying to do, that is definitely the program for you because it gives you a all the step by step, you can calculate your credit score. You can see exactly where you're at. So those resources in the description. All right, Bri, what do we have? Mike says my credit score is high. Eight hundreds, thanks to the invisible intervention craft program. My. If you're in the 800s, just like with a credit score, financially, you can buy anything you want to buy. You have extreme power and influence. You are in a. You are in a situation where you have some ability to lead the conversation. I think that is amazing. Mike, tell us how to get there. Give us some advice. Tell us what you did to get your 800 credit score. We need to know. Denise says my spouse only admits he has a problem when something big has happened. Within a couple of days, he is back to ignoring it and doesn't want to talk about it. Everything. I have tried to help him. Doesn't. He doesn't really want to get sober. I have la. I've lost all hope that he will ever get sober. Actually. I know we live like roommates. We have never been working as a team. All right. Oh, Question here. I need to let him go. How do I do that with transpond? I don't know what that last thing means. Free. Oh, I think what you're saying is how do I let him go if I have a. Maybe you're trying to say a trauma bond. Is that what you're trying to say, Denise? I think maybe it is. Letting go of a relationship is very similar to getting clean from drugs and alcohol. You have to come to accept that you are going to go through a withdrawal phase and that it is going to be painful and that all of your instincts are going to be telling you to do something else. Just like someone who's withdrawing from any kind of drug or addiction. And you have to have faith that if you will just endure that time, it will get better and better and better and eventually it will not have that same hold over you, but you will go through a period of serious uncomfortableness and doubt. And it feels like, you know, you're having cravings for the person. And because you're just. You've been in that relationship so long, it is hard to break those habits. The one thing I sometimes see people for other than addiction is occasionally is like going through a bad breakup. Because literally it's like the same thing. They're like in withdrawal, they're craving, they're doing crazy behaviors to like get their drug, you know, like social media spying and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, you're gonna go through some withdrawal. Blue Eyed Kodiak says, how do we combat the feeling that seeing the good in them is just another opportunity? And they used to manipulate this. Just ditch my ego and continue to believe in good. Yeah, ditch your ego because you're, you're worried about them manipulating you. But the fact here is, is that I'm going to use this word, manipulate. You're really manipulating them. You can let them think they're manipulating you all day long, but you're not manipulating them, you're persuading them. And the difference is, is manipulation is to try to shift somebody in a certain direction for your needs and influence. And persuasion is, is trying to get someone to shift or change for their good, not your good. So really you are the one that's influencing. So let your ego go. I mean, I'll let clients come in and let, let them think that I believe everything they're saying until it becomes necessary. Like there's sometimes when I call things out or something like that. But, but it's okay with me what they think because I know I'm five steps ahead. That's what we do on this YouTube channel is we get five steps ahead. If you're new here and you haven't subscribed and you want to be five steps ahead of addiction, whether for yourself or for a loved one, subscribe. This is the place you're going to learn to do it. Question from mingling, it says, can you explain a bit more how to trust the addict's ability to solve the problem when we know the addiction will try everything to talk them out of it? Yes, that's actually a super good question. I think probably the, the way that I do that is because I trust and believe and have faith that addiction is going to run a certain path in a certain course. It's going to have certain outcomes. Like it is predictable and I can count on it. And the thing that I can count on is that that addiction is going to make that person miserable. And eventually that person is going to get to the point where they can see that whatever this addictive behavior is, is no longer helpful for them. Maybe in the beginning, whenever it started, it helped them in some way somehow, but they're going to be able to see that this addiction, number one, it's less and less effective. Like if it's drinking, it's, or smoking or whatever it is, it's like it doesn't even work on you anymore. And in fact, you start to begin to see how it is causing you problems. And so I, I know how addiction is going to work. I know the course it's going to run. And eventually, if I don't get in the way, this person is going to see the trut for the truth. And then it's just my job to help them stay motivated to overcome it and help them know that they have the capacity and the strengths to get on the other side of it. Ruby says, if my loved one blames others for their problem, how do I respond to them without sending them on the defensive? Really good question, Ruby. This is a great example. You don't have to. I know what you're scared of, Ruby. You're scared to validate that victim thinking mentality, which I get. I totally hear where you're coming from. But what you, what you can try to validate or have empathy for is how it's make how that person is feeling. Maybe you disagree with their point of view, but if you just could imagine yourself in their shoes and maybe they feel like their boss is beating up on them. And their narrative is that they're, they're constantly trying and they work harder than everyone else, but their boss is mean to them or whatever. Now, I know in your head you're like, no, you called out three times last week. There's a reason why your boss met you. I know you're thinking that because it's probably true, okay? But if you can connect to their perspective and you can say something to them, an empathetic statement, reflective, listening statement, some kind of version of, I know you've really put your heart and soul into that job. And it seems like they're always on your case lately. You can find a truthful statement that falls in their narrative and they're going to feel heard and understood. You don't have to say, well, you put yourself in this position. You don't have to remind them of the 50 things that they did to mess it up and why this person is after them or whatever. The empathy will get them to see their own faults faster. Lydia, how much time should this process of influence take? How many times do I need to convey how I see things from their perspective before they act on it? Or does that mean it wasn't effective? This is a really. This is a really good question, Lydia. And it's one of the reasons why we do the credit score thing and the invisible intervention, because I think it was Mike who says he has the 800 credit score. @ some point, you feel like, okay, I've been empathetic. I have reflectively listened to you. I have been nice and supportive and all that stuff for so long, it's now or never, right? That's what you're thinking. Because there comes a point, right? And so when your credit score is high enough, you can push at this point. You can't constantly push. But you. You gotta say, it's like, it's like, I got enough in the bank account to spare a little, right? And at this point, you can push harder, whether that means given a bit of an ultimatum or saying, look, I'm. I'm going to be out if this doesn't change. And because you have the credit score to support that, they're going to know that what you're saying is fair and reasonable. And so the question of how long it takes is how long is it, how long will it take you to build your credit score up? And a lot of that depends on, you know, not just how fast you can gain it, but. But, like I do, you're going to lose some points every now and then, and you're going to drop back down. And if you really lose your cool, you're going to drop back down to zero. So you may say, well, I've seen things from their perspective a hundred times, but if yesterday you lost your cool and which happens, okay, and you just said everything you shouldn't say, you're probably like, back down to the zero in the credit score. And sometimes you have to build that back up. So I can't give you a length of time, but I can tell you, you know, you're just going to have to keep track of moving forward and moving backwards and where you're at in your trust with this person. Mike says, yep. AWS scheduled outside guidance from a counselor. It's all working your program. Hey, thank you so much for the positive feedback. I'm glad it's working. And it's working because you're working it because you got 800 credit score. Louise says, one thing I now celebrate and affirm is my addicted loved one is honesty. Because for me, that is a big step forward. Even if it's not what I want to hear. It's progressed from denial. Right? Honesty. Honesty with themselves. Right. And honesty with you, Louise. You're probably like most people, and it's like the lies that are the most damaging, right? It makes you feel crazy, the lies and the gaslighting. So if you can get the lies and the gaslighting better, you're on a much more stable ground. And if they're telling you the truth, that means that you have built credibility. It means they feel safe enough to be honest, not just with you, but with themselves about the situation. Cynthia says, Amber, my son, sober for 19 months, had a relapse last week. He overdosed on fentanyl and had to be revived, intubated, and thank God is okay. I tell him it is not the end of the line. I'm encouraging him to keep moving forward. He's pretty down on himself. How can I help? You know when someone is really down and depressed? Oh, is adding a counselor a good idea? It's a good idea if they think it's a good idea. You have to present that counselor idea in a way that is palatable to them. And, and, and sometimes there's certain trigger words that people just don't like. One of them could be counselor. I don't know about your person specifically, but a lot of times it's like, get help. I don't know why, but that, that rubs people wrong. You may want to say, you know, maybe you can find a good sounding board and you can process. You know, you're doing really good. You just need to damage control this, Figure out what happened. Maybe you can find a processing, a sounding board. Choose language that they're more likely to accept. Think about the words that trigger them. Do they hate the word counselor? Or have they had good counseling experiences? Do they hate the word get help? Because maybe it's not a counselor. Maybe it's a sponsor. Maybe it's a mentor, a friend, a person from the church. Whatever it is that they're going to accept in use that dawn says, question. My son says he wants to stop drinking, but constantly says he can't because he's an alcoholic and relapses all the time. How do I talk to him about being more positive? Oh, there's more to that. Oh, you put it back up there. Thanks, Bri. I wouldn't use the word be more positive. That's where I would start from. Because if you say, you know, you need to be more positive, it's really going to come across like a critique. Like, he's being down, negative. And sometimes when people are being down and negative and depressed, they don't want to be positive, positive. And so sometimes the first thing you got to do is see things from their point of view. So if I was trying to see things from your son's point of view, it's like. It's like. I know. I know you didn't mean to, but at this point, you've gotten yourself here, and it's like you want to stop, but, like, even when you try, you're not having any luck. So see it from their point of view. You've got to get into the hole with them before you can talk them into coming out. Okay. So you may have to do some rounds of that. Yeah, that's. It's really hard. I know you tried, like, a week ago, and. And you got, like, three days, but you. You fell back, you know, so see what. Hear what they're trying to say to you first and get that guard down before you try to get anything else in there. And that might mean you have to see the negative, because if you're trying to be positive all the time, they're gonna be like, this woman doesn't get it. Like, she's ridiculous. Like, she's not hearing what I'm trying to say, which is, this is hard. So you need to hear that this is hard. MD says, I can also attest that the. That your methods work. It's not easy, but my loved one has signed up as well. I have to now just make sure I stay in my lane any Advice for what my next step should be. I do want to push him, but I have, let's see, hold on. I think you're trying to say I don't want to push him, but I have the worry that he won't follow through. As far as what you do, whatever you've been doing to get that person there to help have that positive influence, you keep doing that because that is what works. The biggest mistake is to get. Let yourself get in that fearful place and start to like, rush it or push it too hard. You hold your steady. You keep doing exactly what you've been doing because it's working, okay? And, and you just have faith in that, that it's worked, it's working. And stick with what you're doing. Amber says, how do I detach? It seems like it's just as hard to let go of the person as it is for the person to let go of the addiction. You are 100% right, Amber. It is just as hard, sometimes harder, I would say. I have a lot of people that, that watch this YouTube channel and that come see us that have been on both sides of the fence, like they've been addicted in recovery and now their person is addicted and they'll tell you, hey, it's harder on this side of the fence. They're going to agree with you, Amber. So it is. And as far as how to do that, what I would tell you is those of you who are asking me questions about how to let go, that is completely valid question, just like Amber and somebody else asked that a little bit earlier. Let me tell you who's better at giving you that advice. Kim and Campbell. The thing that I'm really good at, you guys, is telling you how to, how to get through to this addictive person. Because that's what I do all the time. If you need some help with boundaries for yourself, because guess what? You matter too. And sometimes there is a point where you need to say enough is enough. I, I 1 million percent agree with that and get that right. Most of you have hung in there longer than I ever would have have if I were the family member. Okay, so I hear you. Kim and Campbell can tell you much better how to do that. We have a family recovery coaching program where they talk a lot about things like that. If you're not in there, where they talk about boundaries and self care and where do your needs come in? So I'm not the best expert to tell you that they are. Jennifer says, what do you do when the baby mama wants you to Talk to your son. Okay, so what you're saying, Jennifer, is that your son is an adult and he has a baby with this other woman and this woman is wanting you to talk to the son. Am I? I hope. I think I'm getting that right. And so this frequently happens. There's this dynamic between the spouse, the partner, the baby mama, whatever, the partner, and then the like mother in law figure and usually the partner is, is furious, mad and the mother is super. Either, I guess back up. Either the mother's in complete. And not like they're in denial, which I don't think you're in denial because you're watching this channel, so that's not you, or you're coming from a place of fear. Right. And our expectations of our kid is way different than our expectations of our partner. So what you do is you validate their perspective. The, the baby mama's probably wanting you to come down harsh. And you've been watching these videos. First of all, they're your kid and you don't want to be as harsh as they are. And you've been watching these videos. You know that's not going to be helpful. But the first thing you do is validate their perspective. Because so many partners out there feel like they're in this alone. They feel like that their loved one's family just doesn't see it and they're on their side. So you want to create an alliance with this person. If your son is still with them especially, you need to be on the same page. So hear them, validate them, and then you guys can talk about the best way to approach it. While Kim says, where do natural consequences in hitting rock bottom differ? I think rock bottom is a level of natural consequence. I guess to me, rock bottom is death. And, and you know, Kim, probably you've heard me say on here that I don't believe in waiting for people to hit rock bottom. People usually hit a lot of people bottoms, and so you don't have to wait. When I think of rock bottom, it's like when they've lost everything, they've burned every bridge, they don't have a place to live, they're in jail, they're on the street. It's like this, like they have like destroyed it. All right? Natural consequences are happening all along the way till we get there, all the way to there. And you do have to get to the point where the cons outweigh the pros. So there does have to be some natural consequences in there. But if you, if you wait until They've lost everything. It is much more difficult to influence and persuade someone to come back because they feel hopeless. They're in such a deep hole, they can't even imagine getting out of it. So, yes, you do have to wait till that scale is balanced, where it's causing some pain and they're experiencing some consequences. But, but you. But when they still have something that's important to them that they're holding on to, whether it's a relationship, a job, school, their child, that they still have something in there that's actually really positive, good leverage that helps to motivate them to change before they lose it. So it's sort of like at what point in this line of natural consequences is best. And I think you got to wait till some of them happen, but not till all of them happen. Rita says my daughter doesn't want to get off Suboxone. She's saying she's suicidal, which she has said long before the Suboxone and during other substances. She's amping it up. Right now she's living by herself as someone else's house, as far as I know, and is not doing anything else. I have offered her trauma releasing therapy, which looks like it will get to the cause. I have asked her to contribute something this time, but she can't think of anything. She says she wants the therapy desperately and I don't want to. And Brisa, she's not sure of the rest of that. Probably. I don't want to discourage her or something, is probably what you're saying. Rita, if she's saying she's suicidal in the context of having a conversation with her about coming off of the Subox zone, then what she's trying to convey to you is I'm too scared to come off the Suboxone, right? Like, I don't think I can do it without it. And I. Because you're saying those two sentences together is why I'm. I'm interpreting and I could be wrong here, that you're trying to talk to her about coming off the box zone. She's saying I'm suicidal, which is kind of a way of saying, like, I'm in no place to do that. So. And I don't, I don't know all the details here. I mean, I know some about your story, Rita, but I don't know everything that's happened recently. But like I would say, why do you want her to come off of the Suboxone? And who's pushing her to come off of the Sparks on? Is it you Is it someone else? Is that the right thing? So there's. There's just a lot of. There's a. There's a lot of things in there. Lydia says, do I need to continue to build my credit score? Even if they get sober, I'm kicking myself because I feel as though I didn't do enough in early recovery so they relapsed. Also know that it. It's not my fault. It's hard. Right. You're balancing, sort of pushing yourself to do your best, Lydia, and then also having compassion for yourself, which you should. Yes. The answer to the question is yes. You are always working on your credit score with the people that you care about at all times. There's no, okay, I got them there. I don't have to have trust with this person anymore. Right. It's a constant thing. And you should sort of be aware of where your credit score is with. With all the people that you care about, with your child, with your partner, with your workmates or whatever. You know, it's something to always keep your eye on. And it may feel like a lot of work, but honestly, it becomes more and more natural and easier and easier, and it feels less and less hard. All right, I think we are getting to the end of our time today. Thank you. For those of you who showed up. If you want to more help from me or my team, look in the description. There are links to all kinds of resources. We have a couple of new August spots opening up for recovery coaching in that. Right, Bri? But they're getting taken up pretty quick. So if you want one of those August spots, you need to jump in there and apply to get that spot saved. Next week, we're running a big promotion to get into the membership, so now's a good time to make some decisions. If you need resources, and there's also free ones, all kinds of other ones in there, too. I'll see everybody next week. I hope you have a good one.