The Lies Addiction Makes You Believe | B. Reeves Story (Part 1)

Sitting by the fire, finally kind of enjoying ourselves. And he said, you know, it's a lot easier to stay warm than to get warm.

You know?

And I was like, okay, I hope I never forget this.

You've probably heard me talk a lot about how important natural consequences are for helping motivate someone to want to change. But that's not the only piece of the formula you need. You also need hope. And that hope usually comes from some sort of positive influence. And today's recovery story is really going to help you see that in action. I want to introduce you to my friend B, who struggled for years. But at just the right moment, a family member pushed him to do something different, and he was just miserable enough to be open to the idea.

I told my story at a meeting in your town two nights ago, actually, and I brought up my parents' divorce. And I'm careful with my reference because the older I get, the less people get it. And I always say, you know, it wasn't a Kramer versus Kramer. you know, nasty thing, but it was, you know, it wasn't great. Um, but the reason I even bring it up when I'm telling my story at a meeting or in this context here is I just want to look back on that. I know that I started to manipulate to get my way, whether that was affection or material, Air Jordans, money, whatever. I started playing people off each other. That would continue until I got sober.

What's your mom's personality like? Like, if we met her, what's she like as a person?

My mom is The sweetest person I've ever met in my life. And she's very smart and very well-read and well-spoken. She was an English teacher, and then she actually started a business around the time my parents got divorced, a catering business. Eventually sold her half, and then my— her partner sold it, and it's alive and well and thriving today. And the sweetest person I've ever met in my life. And my dad, I would not say was the sweetest person in the world, but he was the smartest person I've probably ever met. Big, big personality. just history buff and a writer and a publisher and an editor and just a very interesting person. You know, he had friends who were former KGB double agents. I wouldn't say he was an alcoholic or an addict or anything, but just kind of his personality. He was erratic and caustic, and— but, but he was also very, you know, gentle and benevolent and giving. And I mean, he was a great guy. He was different from my mom.

What was your— did you have a connector point with your dad? Like, did y'all have a thing?

Yeah, we did. And it was, um, something that didn't really last because I became— the older I got, once I started My priorities shifted. He introduced me to the game of golf when I was really young, and that was kind of a thing, especially when I was younger. But then when I got a little bit older, I just kind of I lost interest in it. Couldn't be relied on to be there on time and for that long and wake up early. And but he definitely introduced me to something that's a huge part of my life today. So I still feel like it's it's it's more it's probably more of a connection now, actually posthumously. You know, the last 25 years of his life, honestly. But you know, also, we know I was a history major. I'm very you know interested in history and literature and politics. And you know, he was very interested.

Did you have a connector point with your mom?

You know, I mean, I guess the sort of yin and yang in that analogy would be that, you know, she introduced me to tennis. She was the tennis player. My mom— my dad was a golfer, and I played— I probably took tennis more seriously, actually, when I was younger. I was never great, but I played in some tournaments, played in high school, and I played tennis, you know, really until I rediscovered golf 7 years ago when I got home from treatment. You know, I was sitting in a treatment center and they gave me a list of sober activities, and I was looking at this list scoffing. I mean, some of them, it was like square dancing and crochet. And I was like, golly, is this what I'm going to be reduced to? And golf was on there. And I don't think I would have forgotten it existed, but I saw it on this list. I was like, I love golf. And I got home from treatment and I just started playing golf again. And if nothing else, it killed 5 hours of a day, you know, and it was outside.

And you're telling me you can golf sober? That's the thing.

It's funny that you asked that because I did get that reaction from a lot of old-timers in recovery. And they would say, you know, be careful out there.

And I quite understand.

Yes, I did plenty of playing golf drinking and, you know, otherwise at bachelor parties and weddings and, you know, here and there. But I played so much as a kid when I was, you know, starting at about 6 years old, never even smoked a cigarette. That's what I associated with more than the, like, debauched golf that I did experience plenty of.

Now, you mentioned in your outline, B, that you had a fairly close relationship with your stepdad.

And he's been my stepdad now for It's coming up on 37 years, and I'm 48. So most of my life, the vast majority of my life, he's a great guy. But, you know, I was a little— I mean, I was a spoiled brat, and for a lot of reasons. Part of it is, you know, being an alcoholic and an addict, and that sort of in me anyway, and also the child of divorce and that stuff. But, you know, it's funny because our relationship did improve just when I got older, you know, in general. But, you know, when I got sober, it really— like all my relationships, just relationships improved. And when I got into Recovery outside of treatment back when I was in Raleigh, when I first got home. And I ran into this guy at Target, and I was telling him about this. And I just said, I just can't believe that he wants to do this for me, you know, after all these years of me being such a brat and causing problems and ruining Christmas and vacations and all that. And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, that's amazing. But you know what else is amazing is that you want to spend time with him. You know, my dad was my dad, and my stepfather is my stepfather, but he's way more than that. And he's a great man. And just love him.

And you have a brother?

I do.

Older or younger?

He's 4 years younger and my best friend for sure. My relationship with him was probably the thing that was the most obviously strained, you know, 7 and a half years ago or so. And like I mentioned, like, my dad— our dad died February 24th, 2018, and I went— I got sober June 27th. So it's like, you know, 4 months of space there. And my brother, somewhere in there around March, remember he wrote me this email that Considered this scathing email of being looking down on me and this and that. And then it's funny, I mean, everything on there was absolutely true. I just didn't want to admit it, you know. So when I was 14, freshman, I went off to boarding school right outside DC in Alexandria, Virginia. Really good school, loved it. I wouldn't play ball there. They had rules and I wouldn't follow most of them. I never really got in big trouble, but, you know, and they kind of warned me, you know. I'd been there for 2 years and they're like, hey, if you don't shape up, you know, you're not going to get invited back. Or, you know, if you really— if we do catch you doing what we know you're doing, we're gonna— you'll get kicked out. But I, um, after my sophomore year, I got a letter. I remember I came home from being at this Beach Week thing. My mom was holding it and crying, this letter saying I wasn't invited back to the school. I don't think it hit me on the spot, but I was definitely devastated. I mean, I loved this school and I had a great life, and I was starting to do pretty well academically and played sports. And, um, even though I'd sort of lost interest in sports as I like started dabbling in, you know, substances and stuff, I loved being there. I mean, I loved Boarding school, I loved the school, and I had great friends. And so that summer, we went and looked at other schools, and I ended up going to this school in Connecticut, an all-boys school, which is a great school as well. But to answer your question, I think in hindsight, when I was there, I developed a case of the— I would call it the supposed to's. You know, I'm supposed to be there, but I'm here. I've never even said those words out loud, I don't think, but I definitely felt that. At that point, I started to kind of self-medicate a little bit, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And I was prescribed Ritalin because I had ADD. I don't think they had— they didn't call it ADHD yet, but I definitely was kind of medicated basically from 14 to 41, you know, when I was prescribed Ritalin. And just, I've always had something in my system basically. I just was always— that's where this pattern that would continue until I got sober, and still can if I'm not spiritually fit, kind of seep back in of like, what, I'm supposed to be doing that? Like, I'm not— like, oh, these people have graduated now, they're getting married now, they're You know, they've bought a second home, whatever it is. Like, I was never there. I always felt like I was behind. I wouldn't really do anything about it other than kind of internally complain and then cover it up with substances. That was kind of how I knew how to make that stuff go away and where I could act as if I didn't really feel that way.

So it wasn't until Connecticut that the substances came into play?

I mean, I know the first time I really got drunk was in My freshman year in high school, went to this hotel with my friend from camp. Sister was in town. I guess she was in college. And there was Miller Genuine Draft. I don't think they make that anymore. And a tub of ice in a hotel room. And I remember that feeling of like that warm feeling of like, oh, this is something that's going on here. Because before, I had drunk alcohol. I'm not one of those people who drank, got drunk, and barfed all over himself and woke up the next day like, when can I do this again? I did like it, but I was also— it was, you know, it was against the rules. I liked— I think I probably liked that more.

When did it start to escalate or become a problem? Like, the way you're describing it now, was it just more like teenage experimenting?

Yeah, I mean, I experimented with other things, like, I mean, acid and coke. I mean, I did drugs, but then I got to college and I went to a big SEC school. I was in a fraternity. And that's when, like, even then, I don't feel like I became like a more stereotypical addict or alcoholic where it was like, I gotta have it, gotta have it. I was just like, I just needed to cover up my— because I mean, I immediately like failed out of school, like after a year. I mean, I never went to class, like literally didn't know where they were. And then after 2 weeks, I would get a WF, you know, instead of— which is a withdrawal failing. And instead of going to, you know, a counselor or the professor and saying, hey, listen, like, Kind of struggling here. Can I just drop the class? I would just pretend like I was still in school. And the only way I could get through a day was just to drink, you know, and do drugs and just act like it was all fine. And it was almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, I just didn't last very long at that school. And then came back to Raleigh and, like, I got 2 DUIs when I was 20 within, like, 3 months of each other, one in Georgia, one in Raleigh. And I got, you know, I had public urination tickets, open container, intoxication. Possession of a fake ID. I mean, all this stuff over time.

Were you still in college at this time, B?

Yeah. I mean, I graduated at 25. So all those DUIs, tickets, all that stuff happened between probably 18 and 22.

Did your parents find out you had all those withdrawal fails? Like, what happened with that?

Eventually, yeah. I mean, they would— I mean, I just was very good at making them think that everything was going to be okay. So I came back to Raleigh, took a semester off, worked at a restaurant, enrolled at NC State, And I would start out doing, you know, kind of well in a class, and I would just never show up again. For instance, this was in 1999, and this movie called The Blair Witch Project— some friends living in New York, one who worked at Miramax Films, and he had given another friend of ours a tape of— a screener tape of The Blair Witch Project. This guy gave it to me in the parking lot of a fish show in Atlanta, Georgia, and he's like, watch this, just, just go watch it. And then so I did with a group of people. And then I go back, I was taking this film class at NC State, and I went to class after I got back and I went up to the professor and I said, hey, what do you know about The Blair Witch Project? And she's a film professor. I mean, her life is like dedicated to knowing about film. And she said, oh, it's the talk of the industry. I said, yeah, do you want to see it? And she said, what do you mean? It doesn't come out until October. I think it came out Halloween that year. Well, do you want to see it? And she's, what are you talking about? I just pulled it out of my backpack, and I gave it to her to watch. I was like, I'll come get it next time I go to class. And I'd been doing well in the class because I'd been showing up to that class for the first week or so. Give her this tape, and then I just never went to class again. I couldn't be counted on for anything other than to disappoint.

During this time, what was going on with your brother?

He wasn't in Raleigh, and I was back in Raleigh, and he was off at school. And then, When he was a senior in high school, he couldn't have his car there and drove his car, had been drinking, wasn't drunk but had been drinking, no seatbelt, and totaled his car. Didn't get in trouble for it though.

Did you get hurt?

Nope, it was a miracle. People I know later drove, had said they had driven by where the accident was, and whoever was in that car is definitely dead. After it happened, I was in the middle of the console with like the gear shift between my legs, and I just got out. And I remember I called, I ran to my Mom's house, which was around the corner. She was out of town. I couldn't get in the house because I couldn't have a key. And then went to my friend's parents' house where we were supposed to be going. That's where I was heading, eating a bunch of garlic and trying to make me not smell like alcohol. And called my dad, who, you know, they were divorced. He lived around the corner, you know, quarter mile away or whatever. Don't say another word. I'll meet you there. And I walked back to the scene and he was there talking to this, like 3 o'clock in the morning, talking to the cop. And I don't know what he did or said, but nothing happened. That was an example of my parents were great and they didn't mean to, but they enabled me. They didn't mean to. They weren't trying to. They just, you know, it's funny because on some level they were right. They were like, he will grow up. He will. I just don't think they— I know they didn't think it would take this long. And I know they didn't think it would take me having to hit kind of rock bottom, you know, And go to treatment and get sober.

In their minds, was it like, were they thinking, oh, he has a problem, or they're just like, he's just in this phase of life kind of thing?

I think my dad definitely was way in the camp of this, he'll grow out of this, he's in this phase of life. I think my mom was probably a little bit more like, what, something's wrong. I never really felt like I was like really addicted to anything until way later, but I knew that there was something was not right because when, when other people would be hungover and sleep until, you know, 11 or noon, I would sleep until like 5 o'clock. Like, I did not want to be awake unless I was drunk or high. I just didn't want anything to do with life otherwise. I either wanted to be asleep or intoxicated. At 22, I was living— I don't know if I was actually living at home or not, but I was in my mom's house in Raleigh, and I'd been out to see a band in Chapel Hill. And she came home, and I was like passed out under the pool table in the basement with pills everywhere. Not like I tried to commit suicide, but like money, like I was like selling them, you know? And she was like—

Okay.

Oh my God. What is going on? So she called my dad, you know, confronted me about it and said, you know, he needs to go to rehab. And my dad, I think, was like, well, let's not overreact here. So they talked to an educational slash therapeutic consultant. I went on this thing, it's called Explorations, where, you know, I never looked at it as like, hey, you need to go have a spiritual experience and get sober through the 12 steps. It was none of that. It was like, you're really messing up. get out of here for a while. So I basically walked around the Bob Marshall National Forest and Glacier National Park with this guy who was half Crow Indian, who was like a guide therapist kind of guy. And I remember I got to the airport in Spokane, Washington, where I flew out there alone. And I remember thinking like, I could totally just run away right now. But part of me was like, you're too incompetent to even do that. So just go meet the guy. I mean, I think it would be somewhat like Wilderness.

But yeah, Wilderness treatment.

But it was just me and this guy. Like just the two of us for 3 weeks. Well, I mean, I hated it mostly, but it was helpful, you know, um, in some ways. I found my journal. I kept a journal and I read it recently. I hadn't seen it in however long, since 1999, so 26 years or whatever. And this was like 2 months ago I found it, you know. My— the writing's very scribbly because it was so cold. So this guy and I just trailblazed, you know, made camp, made a fire. Cooked our own food, that we had like provisions that people would secretly leave in spots every now and then, I guess. You know, hiking through creeks. It was October, November in Montana, almost into Canada. I mean, it was freezing. I liked it. I didn't want to admit it.

Did he have talks with you?

Oh yeah.

Like, what was this like?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But it wasn't like, hey, how much are you drinking or using? It was kind of like, what's going on? And Just, I don't, you know, I don't remember the exact nature of the talks, but it was more kind of, you know, more spiritual but not religious. Definitely not like talk of God or higher power, but it was just kind of like, what's going on? You know, that kind of thing.

Mm-hmm.

The one thing that I knew I would never forget, and I'm glad I didn't, it was so hard to get warm by the fire every night because it was wet and cold and wind and rain and snow. But once the fire was roaring, Kind of like regulate my temperature, take the toboggan off or the, you know, windbreaker, the shell or whatever. And then if it gets cool, put it back on. But anyway, he— I remember he looked at me and we were warm sitting by the fire, finally kind of enjoying ourselves. And he said, you know, it's a lot easier to stay warm than to get warm, you know? And I was like, okay, I hope I never forget this. And I didn't, but like, it never— I was never able to really apply it like I have In recovery. So it's, it's a lot easier for me to stay sober than to go through all that again. When I was in college in Athens, the first summer I was there was in summer school, and people would be, you know, hey, we're gonna go to the Shoals, we're gonna go rafting, we're gonna go do this. And I would just sit inside and watch Seinfeld reruns and smoke weed in the air conditioning. And one day somebody said, you know, you're more of an endorsement, aren't you? You know what, that's kind of true. Um, I think I did, not in the way you mean. Like, I don't think I could, you know, make a fire with a magnifying glass or anything at this point. But, uh, but you know what it did to me— for me, rather— is it gave me that little Miyagi kernel that I never forgot, even though I didn't really know quite what to do with it for a very long time. And it kind of embarrassed me. I hate to use that word, but I am like— it kind of embarrassed me to kind of get in my Act together. So I came home from that, and I mean, I guess on some level I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna drink. Or, you know, I remember I went to New Year's, like I was home a month and went to like a New Year's concert in Atlanta and drank and whatever. So there was— and I never, never been to a 12-step meeting ever, despite all that trouble I got in in college. DUIs, drinking tickets, fake ID tickets, public urination tickets. whatever. Never once did I have that— they call, you know, a nudge from a judge. Well, you need to go to 15 meetings, whatever they did. Because I see people at meetings where they need to go, where they have to get their slips signed. I never had that. I don't know how. And I'm not, you know, I don't regret it because it worked out the way it worked out. So I came back and I went back to school, and I went to community college in North Carolina for— and I paid for my own school for one semester. My parents, I guess, held some boundaries for like a Bit and said, all right, you're paying for it. And so I did. And I mean, like, and I— it was the first test I took after enrolling myself back in school when I was all serious about it. I wasn't sober or even trying to live a sober life, but I was 22 and I was basically like maybe the equivalent of a sophomore, basically probably still a freshman. And so the first test for math in this calculus class, I got a 51. I was like, oh my God, I'm actually an idiot. This is a pivotal moment actually in my life because I didn't curl up in a ball and quit and take my ball and go home or, you know, go cover. I was like, I need to get a tutor. So I did. And anyway, I ended up doing really well in the class and doing really well at that school. And I got back, I got into a university, graduated at 25. I did a year abroad in the meantime. I still had that shoulda, woulda, coulda. I was like, well, I'm 23 and I'm still in college. My friends are now living in New York or whatever. And then, you know, I'm— I couldn't just be like, hey, look, this is great, I'm actually making some progress. I was like, oh, well, but what about that? No, you know. And, um, but again, I wouldn't tell anybody I felt this way. I just did, you know. And, um, but I did manage to graduate with a history degree at 25 and ended up doing really well, you know. My GPA, fortunately, was only calculated on the 2 semesters I went to UNCW. I went abroad for a year, which was pass/fail. I did an internship in New York at Miramax Films and Kind of indirectly through the guy who gave me the Blair Witch tape, but like barely showed up to that, which is a great opportunity. And I was just, I was still just a mess. Like, I did well in school while I was at UNCW, but I was like, sleep when it— if left to my own device, I would sleep a lot. Then I moved to Charleston, South Carolina, right after I graduated, got a really cool job. I got fired from it. I mean, but it was really for my drinking, from being late. And it was like kind of a sales job, but it was a nonprofit. So there was no— it wasn't like I was making commission, but I was really good at it. But I was just like, couldn't be— I was— couldn't be counted on, you know?

Okay.

Um, and then I went— I moved to London because I had a work visa I needed to activate by a certain date. So I left Charleston. I was always going to leave to go to this— do this London thing. I did that, and like, you know, I had all these opportunities there, and I ended up doing some stuff. And this is a pattern, you know, where it's like, oh, that sounds really cool. I mean, I literally wrote for a gossip column for the Evening Standard newspaper, which is like You know, like writing for Page Six at the New York Post or something. I was— I would— they'd send me out to cover stuff, and I was sort of a novelty because I was an American in 2003. There was cross-pollination in that specific subgenre of media, I guess. And it was, it was great. But I also worked at night, and I would sleep— I'd go out after, I'd sleep all day. And, you know, I had this amazing opportunity where I could have really catapulted myself into bigger things, and I just kind of— it's like, oh, but you know, this will suffice. Everybody knows, like, as long as people know that I do this cool thing, I'm good, you know.

And then— How long were you there?

6 months. I had a 6-month work visa.

Okay.

And then I came back and then I moved to New York, briefly did some work for the New York Daily News, and then I worked in film and TV and commercial production, which I did basically the next 5 years. But again, it was like, oh, he worked on Law and Order, you know, he worked on The Sopranos, which I did. I worked on one episode when it was one where they didn't— none of the actors were there because they were filming Making home movies from the '50s when they were kids. But I get the credit. Like, I was, you know, I worked on, you know, that's pretty cool, Munich, that was directed by Steven Spielberg. All that's true, but it was also like I was kind of hiding out, you know. And everybody, all people need to know is, oh wow, he works in those movies, he works in movies. Oh, that's cool.

And what was going on with you addiction-wise during this period of time?

So, I mean, again, it was kind of the same thing as like in college where I was I never felt like I was, I gotta have something to like get through a day. But when I did do, I would take it to the next level, you know? And, um, but then, I mean, I will say by then, like, I kind of figured out a way to always have some kind of sedative, you know, like I'd trade my Adderall for Valium or Xanax. And that was starting to become a thing, but it wasn't quite like, I gotta have this thing or I'm not gonna be able to function. But I was, I mean, part of it was just broke, you know? I lived in New York, it was very expensive. I didn't make a lot of money. I mean, I would make, You know, good money for periods of time. Then I was always freelance, and so I'd be unemployed for a little while. And being the way I was, I wasn't very proactive about making sure I had the next thing set up. And by the time I left there, I probably had more of opiate— not an addiction, but more of like an affinity for, like, for painkillers.

Okay.

Because there was this guy who worked at this, like, vendor where we rented equipment for movie stuff that would sell them to us, and that was becoming a thing. For sure. By the time I left New York.

Okay. So where did you go when you left New York?

So my brother was diagnosed with cancer, brain tumor, 2007. Then the economy crashed, 2008. I used both of those things as, like, full-on excuses to move. And it was really because I basically, like, failed out of New York the same way I did college. Like, I just wasn't— I wasn't participating in it. I was just kind of sitting there. I mean, My attitude was I felt entitled to an education, an income, a relationship, a social life, everything with, like, little to no effort. I think if you asked me, I wouldn't really act like that, but that's kind of— and I didn't think of it in those terms then, but looking back on it, I mean, that's kind of how I think I operated.

You moved back from New York, all those things that had happened, so no one really saw it as necessarily like a failure.

Right. I left my stuff in storage there, and I kind of on some level knew I was never gonna really move back there, but I would think it's part of my— the facade, you know.

So what happened when you moved away?

When I came— I came out to Raleigh, you know, I was at my mom's house for like a few nights, and I remember I was going out like I was living in New York, coming in at 3, 4 in the morning. And, and one day she said, You know, I just don't think I need to see how you live. You're 31 or 32, whatever I was. I agreed, really. But, but I ended up— a friend of mine who's one of my best friends, who's also sober now for multiple years, this house, and he had 2 extra bedrooms. I was like, hey, man, can I rent a room from you for the summer? I'm moving back to New York in the fall. And that was the plan, even though on some level I knew that was never gonna happen. Ended up living with him for 3 and a half years. And we definitely like Partied a lot, did a lot of the same stuff that I mentioned, and then he got engaged, and then I moved out, and then he got married, and then blah blah blah. So like I was kind of again. I mean, I was just kind of floating around. I ended up getting had a series of jobs, including one at one point. I quit one job. I said I'd rather drive an Uber than do this, and I did that. But I mean, I got my dad. You know, I was very good at getting not. I mean, the Uber thing is sort of its own deal, but like I was really good at getting good jobs, like in advertising. I was got my Series Seven and sixty-six. I was a financial advisor. But I just wasn't really good at doing the work required to, you know, succeed at or even keep these jobs. Meanwhile, my drinking and using was getting worse. Like, I'm more and more like not quite a full-on acutely addicted addict to painkillers, and— but getting there. Get a good job at, uh, selling software for a really good company in Raleigh. I was doing really well. I got into a new relationship which was going well. Then like work started not going great. Then like—

Oh, man.

That relationship ended. I did not handle that very well. I definitely drank and used over it. Head into this next year, 2017, where my dad's diagnosed with cancer in June of 2017. And I was sad, of course, but I was also kind of like, I can just take drugs and drink and nobody can question me. But it was also like, I'm still kind of reeling from this relationship. I didn't know how to handle getting out, dealing with this breakup. Which was now like almost a year old. And I was— or the breakup had happened almost a year before, but I was still kind of— didn't know how to handle it other than to—

Was the breakup related to any of this other stuff or just something separate?

What do you mean?

You said the breakup that you had, that was related to this. Was it related to the partying?

Yeah, I mean, it was directly and indirectly. I mean, it's funny, the breakup itself was the day it happened. I don't think I've ever told anybody this, not because I'm like, Afraid to. I just hadn't come up. But we were all at the beach over the 4th of July, and our families were about to meet. And I left the beach, the island where we were, to go to this town to get a bathing suit. But I really wanted to go get some pills. She didn't know that. I mean, she didn't know what I— but I was very irritable, and I also felt very inadequate. You know, there were times where— and I mean, I've since made amends to her and told her this part, you know, that sometimes I would sort of pretend like I didn't want to hang out with her and say, hey, I just need to do my own thing. Or even lie to her, like, hey, I'm going to like play tennis. But I was so broke, I was ashamed. I couldn't really like take her to more dinners and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

So that thing ended, and then I just spent a year kind of reeling from it. And then my dad was diagnosed with cancer. Then I was like, oh well, I'm already bummed about this one thing. Now this is like something that is sort of socially acceptable to be upset about, so I can really use that to self-medicate. And I did. I, you know, I dated 2 other girls in the meantime, one of them seriously. And then— but I was getting very bad, and I was like never going to work. I would lie to work and say I was at the hospital visiting my dad. I would lie to my family saying I was at work. And I was either— I wasn't like— it wasn't that I was having fun. I mean, I was usually just asleep, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And it was miserable. I was broke. And, you know, I was still getting paid like my base salary, but no commissions. And I was sort of on not really leave, but it was Awful dark time.

So the, as they say in recovery, like the unmanageability was escalating.

Oh my God.

Really? Like, okay.

Admitted we were powerless. That I didn't really have a problem with at all. But like the unmanageability part was like, oh my God, truer words have never been spoken. I mean, my whole life consisted of me texting just the right amount of people, like where I am. I mean, it was just this web of bullshit and deceit, and none of it was a big deal, but it was all— none of it was true. It was all just to kind of COVID my tracks, you know? And like, I mean, I had a series of real bottoms. Like, at one point, I remember this one of the girls I was dating, you know, later, who I was dating when I went to treatment, who's also now sober, like 3 and a half years. Amazing. I, um, we went out one night and my phone got lost. Like, I left it in an Uber and I was tracing it the next day and I never found it. And then like, I didn't have a phone and I was like, Paralyzed instead of just dealing with it. I just was like, oh, I can't leave the house. And I just sat there and just hid. I wasn't even really getting like high or drunk. I just kind of— and this is before I was really experiencing any kind of withdrawal. I was just like this scared little child, just kind of— it was awful. It was so awful. And it would get— then I would get some substances and then I'd be like, oh, I'm all right, I'm all right. Then Then I wouldn't, and I would go in these really deep, dark holes of depression. And like, I honestly didn't quite know what was going on with me. Like, I knew something was awful, but I was— I didn't quite know that I was going through withdrawals. And, you know, I just was—

Is it because it felt more psychological than physical at the time?

Yes, definitely. And then by the end, there were some more physical symptoms of it, but it was more psychological. Uh, I won't name it because I don't want to say anything bad, but, you know, like a mental health place here, like an inpatient psych ward. And I had a friend who had gone there, and the only reason I didn't go there myself is because I talked to him a few times while he was there, and he was like, this guy's like, you know, peeing on the wall and spilling coffee on himself, you know, all this crazy. But like, I was like, I'm not going there. But I knew I kind of needed to. I knew something was getting— I mean, I knew it was getting bad.

Had this thought occurred to you yet? I have an addiction, a substance problem, a bad habit? Like, what was—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But I sort of didn't think I just knew I was so— I knew nothing about recovery, you know. Like, I knew people who had gotten sober, and I was very jaded. I was like, oh, they were, you know, something happened, they had to go get sober, they're miserable, they just pretend to be happy because they're so ashamed they had to get sober. Like, I had no idea. Like, I just did. And I didn't know that I had this real spiritual sickness either, you know.

Mm-hmm.

I knew I kind of was like, all right, well, I feel like I gotta have these things. I'm like, my life is definitely kind of starting to revolve around making sure I have Percocet, basically. I mean, I knew it. I mean, I wasn't that much of denial, but I was in some form of denial because I didn't do anything about it, really. And I mean, there were times where I'd go pick up my prescriptions at the pharmacy, which was next to this hair salon that had a big— hair salon that had a big window.

Mm-hmm.

I remember thinking, do I need to like accidentally drive my car through this window? Not to hurt anybody or myself, but so like they would come find like, hey, what's in your car, sir? I don't know. I don't know why I had that thought. It would, like, once a month when I'd go pick up my prescriptions, I had this weird thought. Like, I knew that, like, it was a house of cards that had—

Like, almost like a secret wish to get caught. Is that what you're saying or something?

Yes. Like, I didn't have the courage to say it. Somebody needed to, like, say it for me and catch me. So, because I, I couldn't do it, you know?

Right. Like, things are spinning out of control. You couldn't do it.

And it's almost like, when is somebody gonna intervene in here? I would put blankets over my windows so no sunlight could get in. I would park my car around the corner behind another building so nobody would think I was home. And I would just kind of sit, you know, and I would sometimes be drinking and getting high and smoking cigarettes, sometimes just like trying to sleep.

Wow.

And couldn't really ever sleep. But once I did fall asleep, I couldn't ever wake up. It was vicious, awful.

And I Now, was anybody catching on at this point? Was anybody trying to talk to you? Was anybody mad at you?

Yeah, girlfriend mad, parents mad. I mean, and this is now, you know, now we're— I mean, let's say, so my dad dies in February, so I had like 9— a year, a year of like June to June from 17 to 18 where it was getting worse, worse, worse, worse until— I mean, I'm so lucky, the longer I'm around, the The luckier I realize I am because, I mean, it was a pretty short-lived— I mean, I had like a long, slow bubbling, you know, but below the surface situation that bubbled up and ended pretty fast. Like, it could have gotten so much worse and could have dragged. I mean, I didn't luckily start doing heroin. I mean, that was definitely next, you know. In February, my dad died, and then it was even more of an excuse. Like, at his funeral, I was like wearing a suit that the pants didn't match the jacket, Fat and pasty and sweaty and just— I was a mess.

You were a mess.

And, um, and then like the night of his funeral, like, we had lots of friends who came in town for the funeral. And, you know, my brother, part of the email that he wrote, that scathing email, you know, part was like, you know, you treated our dad's funeral like a Phish concert, you know. And I was like, how dare you? But he was right, you know. I was like, it was disrespectful too, you know. And I couldn't be counted on, you know, for the arrangements, and I was just kind of a liability when I could have, should have been able to be an asset to my family at the time. You know, it got worse for sure. My brother came to Raleigh a couple times to go through my dad's stuff and, you know, that kind of stuff. And the first time, I just made up this excuse, hey, I'm not emotionally ready to do this. I just didn't want him to see how I was.

Mm-hmm.

And then he came, he was coming, he was living in Richmond at the time, and he was going to come back And we were going to meet on a Sunday morning, and I'd agreed to do it. And then I had a party-filled weekend and went to bed at 3 o'clock in the morning, Saturday night, really Sunday morning, and woke up on Monday, just like missed an entire day on earth. And he was like, what is going on? And I just shrugged it off. And then he came back and we had dinner, and he's like, what is going on? I was like, I'm just taking lots of painkillers and Percocets. He's like, okay, now I know. All right. And he wasn't mad. He just kind of wanted to know what was going on. And he kind of took that information back. And, you know, the timeline, I'm not exactly sure exactly when that was, but had a few more just like bottoms. But I would, you know, once I got— as long as I had my medicine, my opiates, the pills, I was like happier than ever. But it was—

Now, has it occurred to you yet, the word addiction at all? Like, is it—

Okay.

I don't think I would ever say I'm addicted to anything. But maybe I have a problem here.

Yeah. I mean, I knew. I knew. And also, I had surgery, umbilical hernia surgery in April, which required painkillers. And here my master plan was, I'll take these pills as prescribed, plus all the ones I have stored all over the place. But once the doctor says, hey, you should be off the painkillers, I'm just going to quit altogether.

Okay.

Of course, that didn't work. It got worse. So then, you know, a few other things happened. My mom, one day, to answer that question about were people worried, Yes, yes. But I kept people like very distant and played the sympathy card and whatever. My mom, one day after— like, I would, you know, park my car around the corner, blankets over the windows, lock the door. And, you know, I lived in fear of people knocking on the door. But then when they didn't, I'd be like, oh my God, nobody cares. But one day I forgot to lock the door. My mom just showed up. It was like 7 o'clock on a Tuesday night in May. So it's still broad daylight. You know, And she's very healthy looking and jewelry glistening. And I'm just like on the couch, you know, with a cigarette dangling out of my mouth, under a blanket at 7 PM. Probably hadn't taken a shower in a day or two. And she sat there and she just said, what is going on? And I just said, I'm not dead. You can go now. I mean, it was awful, you know. And she didn't immediately leave, but, you know, I just was like, I'm fine. Just what do you— get out of here, you know. So then, you know, a little time goes by and then I remember my stepmother asked me for a photo of my insurance card, which now in my line of work, you know, and I even then I kind of knew it at that point.

Yeah.

And so my mom said, hey, there's a bed for you at this treatment center in Greensboro. You have to be there by 2 o'clock tomorrow. Will you go? It just kind of happened. Everybody kind of just gathered and said, enough's enough. Like, we got to do something. And I always say I was probably 12 hours from an intervention, which I think is probably true.

Yeah.

But, um, I said, can I sleep on it? And she said, okay. And I woke up the next morning at 10 AM, which was very late for me at the time, and I said, my bags are packed.

What were you thinking?

You know, I was— I don't remember exactly, but I do— I mean, I, you know, like, it wasn't my idea, but like, I Because you said you'd kind of been waiting on somebody.

Yeah. So really you were kind of—

Yeah, but I wasn't like, thank God, you know, like on the way. And again, I didn't know anything about 12-step recovery, recovery, sobriety treatment, nothing. Like I'd been on that thing with that wilderness guy, but like I don't even think— I don't think of that as going to treatment. I was like, a sort of pull me out of life for a little bit and whatever. But I, um, on the way, I, you know, I'd gone to 2 boarding schools and 6 colleges and lived in, you 5 states. And I took— I emailed everybody, like at least one person from kind of every pocket of my friendship groups and family, and said something to the effect of, hey, I've had a rough year. I'm gonna go to this place. I'll be gone for a month. See you on the other side. So on some level, I was not like— part of me was like, I have no interest in being sober or anything. I just wanted this to kind of stop, this misery. But I also didn't go try to disappear for 30 days and hope nobody noticed. I wanted that accountability without even really realizing what I was doing.

It's real strange. One of the things that happens when you're struggling, it's like the connector dots in your brain are cut. It's like you can know this piece over here and this piece over here, but for some reason it doesn't connect. Like, it's a real strange feeling of like looking back on it. It's like, I knew that. I knew that. I saw this. Where was the dots? Right?

Yeah. I mean, I was of two minds. I was like, I know I'm miserable, but I also was like, but I don't want to stop. I mean, I kind of part of— I think I went there like, I want the part of my brain that knows about painkillers to just be muted and come out and still drink and smoke weed and do cocaine and Adderall and ass, whatever. Like a, like a joke.

Like, I have a problem with this thing over here.

Yeah, exactly.

It's really gotten out of hand. I need to get rid of this.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, right.

And part of it was just, you know, ignorance. I just didn't know anything about being sober. Like, I didn't know really that it meant abstinence, you know. And I, um, but I got there, you know, and I was like, okay. And everybody was so nice when I got there. And I remember thinking, because my name— you asked me about my name at the beginning of this, and It served me well, but it's caused a lot of confusion over the years. And so often, like, even when places think they have this real hospitality, they will put my name wrong, put Ralph, which is, you know, I love that's my first name, but it's not what I've been called for before I was, you know, for over 48 years.

Right.

I remember they had my name BR, and I was like, oh, that— I like that they, they care enough to know what I like to be called, you know. And everybody was so nice, and, you know, I said bye to my mom. And actually, this important too. So we're sitting there in the intake room or in the admissions office, whatever it was. And I guess it was the admissions office. And they said, okay, well, you know, you have insurance and this is what you owe. And it was some amount of money. It was, you know, not like crazy, but it was a lot of money to me for sure. And I looked at my mom and she said, get your checkbook, you know. And I don't know if I'd still be sober today if she hadn't done that, you know, because it was— she just— whether she was trained to do that in that moment by somebody like you Or not. She did. She just said, get your checkbook. So I wrote that check. She left. I was still like, had a good feeling about what was happening. And then I got to my room and I looked over at the bed next to my bed, which was, you know, not very, not very far apart. And the guy's, you know, tighty-whities are folded and stacked and his cigarettes and his shoes and his socks. And I just got on my knees and just started weeping.

Wow.

Literally, I just said, God, what have you done to me? You know, like, I was just so— like, it all just came out. I was like, oh my God, what in the hell has happened to me? You know?

Mm-hmm.

And, um, but, you know, I kind of like moped around for a little while while I was, you know, the first few days I was there. I mean, I was friendly, and— but I was like, I'm leaving tomorrow. I can't do that. I'm out. But I never did. And then, I don't know, like, I thought about being a kid when I was growing up. I went to church. I mean, I'm not from a religious family. We went to church, but, you know, like, we all believed in God and went to— I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church, but not super religious. My mom and stepdad definitely went to church more than my dad. But when I did go to church and the hymn was being sung, if I did not pick up the hymnal and sing and just stood like this hoping to sit down again, it took forever. But if I picked up the book and sang along and participated, it went by fast and I could sit down again. And I just— I don't know why I thought about it, but I did and applied that to being there. I was like, maybe I'll even learn something. And it started going by fast, and I did learn something, which was my way of doing things got me half a room at Fellowship Hall. That's what they told me. Your best way of doing things got you half a room here. And then, but more importantly, I started to feel better, like emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally. And all of a sudden, I was just kind of like humming with positivity, you know. I was just like excited to be alive. And I was getting out of the shower, and I had you know what they talk about in the literature that, you know, of my form of recovery, like a white light moment.

Mm-hmm.

I was— I had a spiritual experience getting out of the shower. I felt a voice tell me I was going to be successful, but I didn't, like, I didn't hear it. And I also didn't think, oh, I'm going to be rich and famous. I just, for the first time since I was probably like 12 or 13, or I felt like I was going to be all right. Just like, I mean, everything's gonna be okay, you know. I left there Then, oh, and I'll tell you, so then sometime after that, I got back on my knees again. I said, God, thank you for saving me. And I came out of that treatment center. I got home at 10:30. I was there for, I think, exactly 28 days.

Okay.

I will say they did try to get me to live in an Oxford House, which is, people who don't know, it's like sober living where there's no house manager. It's just peer-run. And I was like, no, no, I'm not doing that. I'm going back to my little Townhouse. And they said, but you've been willing to do everything that we suggested, but you won't do this? And so I said, you know what, you're right. So I ended up having a call with this place, and phone call was strange, you know. And the counselor agreed. He's like, look, you were willing to do it. If you get home and you feel squirrely, we'll figure it out. I was like, all right. So I got home at 10:30 on a Wednesday, and a guy I knew from growing up took me to a meeting at noon.

Mm-hmm.

And then some friends A guy I knew from work and his friend I'd never met, but they were younger, got sober really young, and like when they were 20, they're now like 30 or whatever it was. They took me to a meeting that night.

Did you have all this set up? Did they just know? Did you call them?

Yeah, well, one, my one friend knew, and he'd written, he found out and wrote me while I was in treatment. And like the second I got home, he had like, it's like, hey man, let me know the second you're home, I'll take you to a meeting.

He's waiting for you. Okay.

Yeah. And so the first day I was home, I went to 2 meetings, and then they told me to go to 90 meetings in 90 days when I, you know, starting when I got home. And I went to like 140. I was like, I am doing this.

It's just like the first time in your life you're like compliant. You're like, I'm doing— I'm following all the rules. Wow.

Yeah, absolutely. So I was like, if you asked me how I was doing when I'd been out of treatment for 10 days, I'd be like, I've been to 14 meetings in 10 days. That's how I'm doing. But I just like, I just did it, you know, and I just kept coming back. You know, I got a sponsor. You know, they told me not to wait too long, and of course I waited like 2 weeks and got— and he's still my sponsor. Actually, I had one guy for like half a day, and then I'm— then my sponsor's been my sponsor since for, you know, 7 years. And I just— but the thing is, I realized like, this is what I always try to encourage people to do. Is go to— just go to a lot of meetings. Because if you go for a few days, you're going to start to see people, and it's not going to feel so foreign and weird and scary. And you're like, hey, I heard that guy speak, that lady shared, I met her when she was the greeter. Like, it becomes— it's a very small community.

It's a community, and you get to know people, right?

And you get in, and it's— and you— but at first, it was weird to drive to some random church and go to a basement at 8 o'clock And they say things in a weird way and it takes a minute to get used to. Yeah, there's a lingo involved. And you know, it's that first meeting. And we went to meetings in Fellowship Hall every night. We went to speaker meetings and I loved them. But like, I didn't really feel that— like I had that spiritual experience and humming with like excitement. And of course, part of me is like, I want to get everybody sober, all my idiot friends. But, uh, fortunately, you know, I was given great sage advice. Like, you know, it's attraction, not promotion. Um, but I love being sober, thank God. I just, you know, you kind of said it, you know, for the first time I was like, I'm actually gonna follow— when I was a kid, my mom would always tell me, when all else fails, read the directions. Like, I'd be putting together a model and I would just put the shell and the stickers on and be like, look, it's done.

Mm-hmm.

There was no engine, no steering wheel, whatever. I was just like the shell. And I was— my life was kind of like that. And she would say that about models, but more about life In general, when all else fails, read the directions. And I kind of felt like the steps in what's in the literature, that's the directions, and I follow them.

And that's kind of an example of what they mean when they say hand it over.

Turn it over.

Turn it over. Turn your wheel. Just do the things you're told to do. Do the things you should do and quit trying to control it or find the loopholes or make your own rules.

Exactly. And like, and like the guy at Fellowship Hall said, my— your best way of thinking, your way of doing things got you here. Maybe it's time to listen to somebody else, you know? And that's not always easy. It's usually not easy, but it's like, all right, I'm willing to, you know— and the willingness factor, being willing to do things we don't want to do, and sometimes more importantly, willing to not do things that we want to do, you know, to get our way. You know, that's such a big part of recovery for me is like, I remember I was talking to this friend of mine, a girl who lives in Texas who's got, you know, she's coming up on like 14 years of sobriety, great program of recovery. And we were talking one day and she's— she was upset about something. I was probably 2 years sober. And she said— I was like, what happened? She goes, I didn't get my way. You know, she was being funny, but she was being serious too. It's like, you know, and it talks about in, you know, in step 7, You know, um, the chief activator is the fear of not getting something we want or losing something we have. And it's like, that's what life is. It's like my acceptance of things, you know, the Serenity Prayer. Most people on earth know what that is, but it's all right there, you know, just trying to control every little thing, you know.

The life on life's terms kind of thing.

Yes, exactly. I started, uh, you know, my sponsor said, call me every day. I was like, okay. He said, Don't text me unless— if you need me, text me. But unless I see you, I want a voicemail from you if I don't answer. I was like, I get it. It's easy to hide behind text. So I called this guy every single day for a year, went through the steps, and one day he said, you don't have to call me anymore. But in the meantime, you know, I developed this program where, you know, everybody does it a little bit differently with some, some sort of mainstays. But like, they told me to meditate. I was like, how can I meditate? I'm crazy. And I'm, you know, I can't sit still. I have ADHD. And they said, Well, you think you're the only person here? You think you're so unique that you can't meditate? It's like, okay. So try for 45 seconds. I said, all right. So I started with that, but always twice a day. And then I started 5 minutes. And then about 5 and a half years ago, I started doing Transcendental Meditation where I meditate every day, twice a day for 20 minutes.

That's like hardcore. Okay.

But, but, but guess what? It makes me feel— I like to feel good. I just don't have drugs and alcohol to make that happen. I pray on my knees every morning. I meditate twice a day. I pray on my knees every night. I was at a meeting in Greensboro, like 3 years sober, and big tapestry on the wall that says, a day hemmed in prayer is less likely to unravel. You know, what that tells me is like, just because I pray in the morning and at night doesn't guarantee me to have some great day with no trouble. But you know what, it certainly helps, you know, to book in my day in prayer.

And you know, why do you think that helps?

You know, for several reasons. Because first of all, I believe prayer works.

Okay.

I also believe when I am practicing and, you know, when I'm humble enough to get on my knees and say, hey, I don't, I don't know what I'm— I don't have this.

Help.

Please help me. Thank you for keeping me sober yesterday. Please keep me sober today. And then I say some other stuff. But it just, you know, it doesn't change what's going to actually happen. I mean, it can, but I'm not— but that's not really the purpose. I think the purpose is Just knowing that I don't have this, and like you said, turning it over. And when I do that on my knees and that supplication, that way, you know, I know I can't control it if I'm getting on my knees and saying, "Hey, I don't have this." You know, I want to go back just a second and highlight something you said in your story earlier because I feel like it's really important.

When you, you know, you weren't really thinking about going to treatment, but you were miserable and kind of secretly, subconsciously even maybe wishing something would intervene. Your mom just kind of. nudges you, it doesn't take much, you go, but you're not thinking, okay, I gotta get sober. You're just thinking, okay, like, whatever. And, and you're almost just so fragile, you're just almost like— and then so you just go. And the reason I bring that up is because a lot of people say, there's all these sayings like, you have to want it for yourself. You have to want to be sober. You have to want 100%. And I'm always saying, Sometimes you have to get sober to want to be sober. And that's what I hear in your story. Like, I can— when you're describing that and that the day you wake up, it's like the brain fog is lifting and you have enough clarity to see straight, think straight.

100%. And you're right, it is a myth. Look, in a perfect world, somebody who needs help is like, oh my God, something happened. Or just emotionally, they're like, I need help. I want help. Help. I'm ready. And then they go get help and they stay sober, you know, and live happily ever after. Didn't happen like that with me and doesn't happen with like that, you know. I'm sure it happens. I've seen it happen here and there where somebody just, just the right time, everything happens. But I mean, I had no intention. I, I, but I, but I participated. I just went through the motions just so it would go by fast. Right.

You didn't even, you didn't even have to participate for the right reasons. You just did it because it's like, maybe it'll Make this faster and be less boring or something.

Exactly. And also the other thing is, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine, one of my best friends from— I've known for my whole life, and we have a friend who's struggling. And my friend that we're talking about is not— he's not an alcoholic or an addict. He doesn't get it, nor should he. But he was— I was having the same conversation with him where, you know, we can get sober for other people, you know, like my mom, for instance, you know, my family. They're— I mean, I didn't make the call, so I was doing it for other people. But we can only stay that way for ourselves. We can go through the motions. And what happened with me, and I see it happen all the time, is you just do it for whatever reason and you get some results. And you're like, exactly.

That's kind of how I tell people that most of the time— well, I always say I've never heard a reason I didn't like. All the reasons I've ever heard, whether it's I don't want to go to jail or whatever, If it's like, I'm going to get sober for whatever reason, it's a good reason. Because if you get sober, then you feel better, just like you're saying, B, and your thinking clears and those dots finally start to connect in there. And then you choose to stay sober for yourself.

Absolutely.

People usually get sober for external reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that. And the shame of that is sometimes people go back out because they've been told That you can't get sober for those reasons. And they literally like be like, well, I didn't. I did it for my wife or whatever. And so they sabotage themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think the key is to get— is to not dip your toe. Or the key for me was to not, which I'd done, you know, so half-assed with every— you know, I did pretty much everything half-assedly in my life other than like party really and like make sure my buzz was just right. But in general, I was pretty much, you know, I didn't follow directions, you know. And what I see so often is people come into, you know, the recovery rooms, they come into treatment, they ask me like, what did you do? And I tell them what I did. And I don't tell them what to do, but what I did and what I do. And then they do like the bare minimum, you know, they'll go to a meeting and then they won't go through.

Pick and select some things.

And it takes work, you know, and I try, I'm trying to get away from calling it work because I love sobriety and recovery and all, and, but it just takes participation.

You have to.

Yes. Yeah.

You're having it, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I mean, I, but all this stuff I do, my prayer, my meditation, calling people and readings and inventory and gratitude lists and sponsorship and service, like it sounds like a lot of stuff, but like I do all this stuff every day. I mean, some of it I do non-negotiable every day— prayer, meditation, gratitude lists. But like meetings, I don't always get to go to a meeting. I don't always talk to somebody in recovery. Almost always, but it still— it seems like a lot of time that I put toward my recovery on a daily basis. I have more time to do all the things in my life now than I ever did when I did nothing going on. My life was pretty, pretty sad, yet I had no time to do anything, right? You know, But now I don't know how this works. It's a paradox where the more I do for my recovery, the more time I have.

When you're stuck in the addiction, it literally consumes everything. Your every thought, every— is built around it. And even people can't even see that sometimes. Even if you're just sitting in your duplex with the blankets over everything, there's this constant— like, in my mind, the way I visualize it is like, Seeing somebody stand on a ball juggling knives with plates balanced on their nose or something. And you have to do that every day from time you wake up, time you go to sleep, you know, like, and it's exhausting. And when you don't have to do that anymore, there's so much room in your life for whatever you want to put in it.

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it says in step 3 in 12-step recovery, you know, that the more dependent we are on a higher power, The more independent we are as a result. And that's exactly what you're talking about. So what— but by being— the way I show my dependence is like we talk about, like prayer on my knees and meditation in the program of recovery. But when I do that, I'm not sitting around thinking about myself all day, you know. And thinking about myself— like when I heard the term selfish and ego and thinking about myself, oneself, I didn't know that that was like— could be thinking of myself in a negative light. That's still selfish and ego no matter what. And when I'm Doing, working on myself in recovery, I'm not really— I can't think about myself, right? You know, I'm not, I'm not juggling, standing on that ball and that unicycle, you know, because most of it was all these, you know, the web of deceit that I was talking about, you know. And it is no way to live.

It's no way.

And it is such a load off to let it go. Yeah.

Right.

Is there any final message that you have for people that you'd like to I mean, though, I guess it's pretty trite, but I would just, you know, I think Elton John said it best. The most powerful words we can ever utter, the 3 most powerful words we could ever utter are, I need help, you know? And it's not embarrassing. For me, what was embarrassing was getting arrested and getting DUIs and failing out of school and passing out in bushes. What I'm doing now is not embarrassing. And so many people think that getting better is embarrassing. It's just not.

And what are you doing these days?

What, for work?

Yeah. Where can people find you, I think, right? Oh, yeah.

So I work for a treatment center called New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. We work with adults. We do detox and short-term residential treatment, and we also do diagnostic assessments. If anybody ever wants to call me just to talk, my cell phone is 919-649-7698.

We'll put it on the screen for you.

Yeah. I'm a person in recovery. first, like that. But, you know, also do work in, in the field, but I'm always, always available.

And you have a podcast, right?

I do. We do have a podcast. I think you might be a guest coming up soon.

Maybe.

Yes, it's called Finding New Waters. You can find it anywhere, you know, podcasts are, you know, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Um, it's on our website, newwatersrecovery.com, YouTube, everywhere.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Thank you, Amber. This has been great. The time flew by.

We were participating Oh, and don't forget, this recovery story series is from multiple perspectives. So be on the lookout for part 2, where you're going to get to hear from one of B's family members who's going to fill you in on the family perspective of just how B's story played out for them.