The Lies Alcoholics/Addicts Tell (And Why You Believe Them)

All right, so let's talk about the fact that active addiction comes with scheming. And with scheming, I don't just mean the person that's struggling with active addiction is scheming, but also the addiction itself is scheming the person that's struggling with scheming. And what I mean by that is, by family members, sometimes we just feel like we're the only ones being schemed, and we are, we are being schemed. But also the person struggling with addiction is being schemed by addiction itself. Because in order for addiction to survive and maintain and keep its own entity going, it has to trick the person. It has to trick the host like a parasite. And so today what we're hoping is that we can help you guys develop a stronger sense of awareness of when a scheme is happening. Because what we realize through all of the years of working with families is that families tend to overperform. And by overperform, I mean they engage. They engage with a scheme. And when they engage with a scheme, it actually gives the addiction more power. Because it works as a wonderful deflectant and it also works as a way to just keep its host actively filling what it needs. So what we want to look at is we want to help you guys understand that when a scheme is happening, even though it sounds super simple, what you need to do is just disengage completely. Just disengage because when you disengage in it, you can't feed it and you can't accidentally become the target. You can't fuel the disease, which is really what we're trying to help you guys do is figure out how to back up and not fuel it. So Campbell, can you help us understand and be able to develop the awareness of when a scheme is happening so people understand kind of what they're looking at when they're looking at it?

Sure. I came up with 5, and there are probably more, but I came up with 5 very common ways that the scheming is going on. And basically the first one is deflective. Deflective is they'll use like, they'll name-call, They will point out things that we're doing wrong. They'll sort of yeah, but it to death, and that's that's sort of. And again, Kim said it like the disease is scheming them, so they actually can flip it around and and believe this stuff pretty quickly so that they don't feel so much shame. So I think part of that is needs to be understood. The second one is future purposeful, and and let me give you some examples of what I mean by that. Like we had a mom on the live call in our membership. Several weeks ago, and she was saying how her son had called and he had just gone to treatment. Like he was maybe a week, seven or eight days into a month stay. He had called her and let her know that there was no sober living available and that he would need to come on home after he finished his thirty days. And and she engaged in that and was like, "Well, how can that be?" And just sort of had this big dysregulating conversation. And so that's. Like that guy just building the stage. We had a guy years ago. We talked about this a lot in at lunch, but he went home and told his wife that that Cole, who worked for us with us at the time, had told him it was perfectly fine if he just switched to light beer, and that he would be sober and considered clean and doing really well if he didn't drink IPAs anymore and he just drank light beer. So that's future purposeful. Another one is Amber said we hear this all the time. Amber said I don't need to be on the sober link anymore. Amber said I don't. need to see her anymore. And that is not exactly at all what Amber said, of course. So that's a good example. We had a— we have a client whose daughter has now begun sending her quotes, and these quotes are meant to drag the mom back in. The mom has done a beautiful job of not supporting the addiction, engaging in a kind, loving way with her daughter, but not paying for living expenses and sort of getting duped in. So now the daughter's sending her quotes on what good mothers are like and what caregivers are. And, and so she's trying to pull the mom back in, and that's a scheme for, for absolute sure. Uh, the third way is backstory, and I think the all-time best backstory story I have sadly is mine. One of my boys called. We were at our mountain house and he was staying at our house watching the dogs and the plants, I guess, for the weekend. And I get a call that says, hey, no need to worry. But just wanted to let you know, when I woke up this morning, there was a big guy in the backyard, like pretty scary looking. But I scared him off. I said, "Well, do you need to call the police? Getting engaged." Nope, no, he's gone. No problem. But I just want to let you know, it's no problem. Then the schemer even more cleverly said two weeks later, "Hey, I just talked to the neighbor on the next street over, and that same guy." Has been in their backyard. I think he's casing out the houses in the neighborhood. The purpose of this scheme was so that later, when I found out that most of my jewelry and sterling was gone to the pawn shop, I would believe that it was the big guy in the backyard who obviously never existed. So backstory, and you can hear backstory like it's like a prep. It's like I'm going to set the stage, I'm going to give you a hint, I'm going to show you just a little flash of a picture so that later when this other thing happens. You'll go back to this backstory and think, oh, well maybe it was that. So this is a hard one to be aware of. It's a hard one to catch, but boy, when you get good at it, you're just like, mm-hmm. Third one is situation, or fourth one is situational. And by that I mean, we have a client now whose sibling is using drugs on top of MAT while they're bringing the MAT up to the right level. She's bringing in other drugs, but She's writing it off as well. They haven't gotten to the right level. That's just she's just sort of setting that up as using that to continue using because we'll never probably get to the right level. Another one would be I had a client years and years and years ago who worked in his parents' nursing home and the the nursing home that they owned, and he would say, "Oh, Mr." Jones dropped his Loratab in the toilet, so I need to get some more Loratabs down there to Mr. Jones. So he was stealing meds from the patients, um, and I think those were not purposeful, like pre-planned schemes, but in the moment, this, this sounds good and I can make this work for me. Um, and the last one that I came up with is minimization, and that is, I only had a couple I wasn't going to, but everybody was drinking. It was the Super Bowl. It would've been weird if I hadn't, like just ways to make it seem like it's not that big a deal. And sometimes they tie that strategy in back up here to deflective, which would be, and you're just a controlling bitch because you can't understand that, or you're the fun police because, you know, what's really, frankly, if we get down to it, what's wrong with a couple beers? And so they, they tie those things together to, to pull you back in. So the thing is to develop this awareness that this is potential. Okay. I'm not saying that everybody out there's loved one is using any of these strategies, but the addiction is always finding ways to rationalize and validate drug use. So it is always scheming in the person's brain through all those extraneuronal receptors down there in that survival part of the brain to find reasons that it would be okay. Reasons that I can get away with it. And that's what all these things are. That's They're just reasons to make it okay or reasons to get away with it. And that guarantees the addiction lives, like Kim said at the beginning of the video. So you gotta be prepared. You don't wanna become, you know, Cindy cynical, but you need to be Annie aware, and you just need to be aware that this could be happening. I think there are a couple ways to not overperform, not get engaged with that. The first one would be to ignore it. Don't argue. If there's name-calling, if there's all that minimization, just ignore it. Just say, oh, okay. Agree. Kim and I love the agreement strategy, and that is to say, you may be right. You're probably right. Hmm. I'll have to think about that. Maybe, maybe I'm going at this wrong. Just get out of the situation. Recognize, you guys, when you're talking to addiction. You're gonna lose the conversation. You're gonna lose the argument. You're gonna lose the battle. So don't do it. And that's when you start to hear any of these strategies or any victimized talking, any of that. That's addiction. And I, my motto is, if I have one big motto, it is don't play with addiction. I don't engage with it. I don't play with it, whether it's a client sitting in my office or when I'm working with family members to sort of help them figure out how to get out of the mess they're in. Don't engage with it. Um, don't believe. Um, don't— you just say that maybe to yourself, that this could be true, there could have been a big guy in the backyard, but it also could be true that there was not a big guy. You don't have to put any connective thoughts to that. You just sort of go into the gray zone with a maybe. But that way you don't engage with yourself with, he's lying, why is he lying, this is horrible, like I gotta start watching for this. Or you don't Go buy a whole new security system for your backyard because there's big guys hanging out back there. Just live in the gray there. Do not believe, but be aware it could not be true. And then do your own research. The mom that I was talking about whose son said there's no sober living three weeks out, we were like, we don't buy that. So she just picked up the phone and called the place, and they're like, we haven't even had that conversation yet. Like. That's, I'm sure they're sober living. And darned if that kid didn't go to sober living because she was like, well, there may not be any sober living, but coming home's not an option. So you got a couple weeks to work on that, which was brilliant. So I think just be aware that this is going to go on. Addiction is tricky. You, you know this, you're, you're here. It's a, it's whether you're married to it or you're, it's living in your home or it's your child or whatever. It is cunning. It is going to figure out a way to thrive. It is going to figure out a way to live. And the longer we feed into that, the longer we overperform and engage with it, we're guaranteeing it. So the more when we get sick and tired of being sick and tired, then we have a chance. And so being sick and tired of being sick and tired of some of these strategies is a really good way to start that process.

Let me tack one more thing on, Campbell. When you were talking, a couple things flipped in my head. Deflection is one of, is a hard one to see as a scheme, but they're really good at it. And, and when I say they're, it almost, it sounds like I'm saying that they're anticipating it or it's intentional or they're being cruel, but they're not necessarily because it could just be how the disease is operating in order to feed itself. But with the deflection, they are, they're going to accuse you of certain things. They're going to accuse you of being rigid, like Campbell said, being the fun police. They're also going to accuse you, and I can see this in one of the comments up there which sparked my brain, is, is Not being supportive enough, just like Campbell mentioned with that mom, not giving unconditional support, not giving unconditional love. And what it is, it's meant to pull on your heartstrings to where they're minimizing what you have done and they're minimizing the negativity of what they have done and the impact that that has put on you or put on the family. All of that is a scheme. And again, it does not mean that it's this elaborate thought-out scheme like what Campbell was saying with the, with the big man in her backyard. Like that was intentional. That was, that was thought out. That was very like, hey, we're going from A to B to C and I'm covering my tracks. Some of these other schemes, they're not that thought out. They're just in the moment for the survival. So when they're accusing you of something that you know isn't true, just hear our words, hear our voices. It is a scheme. And your job is to just take a minute, back up, don't engage, pause. You don't have to react or respond in the moment. Which is humans. It's almost like we're primed to talk back if someone's speaking to us, to answer a question, to defend ourselves. Just try not to do that as hard as it might be.

Yeah, I think you're right. Like, one of my all-time favorite clients is, um, is the one who taught me the word scheming. And his is not thought out at all. In fact, he's, he's gone to his spouse and like scaffolded so much around him to stay sober. But if he gets extra cash or someone pays him, In a certain way, then his brain says, "Well, she doesn't know we have all this money, so we'll just give half of it to her or three fourths of it, and then we can just get a little bit on the way home, and we'll just use a little bit." So he's not intending to scheme until the cash gets put in his hand, and then the brain, the addiction, commences the scheming for him, which is sad.

Yeah, very sad for for both the person that's. suffering from addiction and from the family members who are also suffering because addiction is in their lives.

It's just, yeah, like in this case, that wife is just going all out to help her spouse, like going all out, like has done everything we've suggested and she's still getting beat up. Yeah.

All right. So that's our little tidbit on scheming.

All right, Breeze. All right. After three months of rehab and staying at my parents' house, not sure he had a job. Parents keep saying he has job interview. Don't know how true that is. Oh, good! The job, the job search is a great scheme. I'm glad you pointed that out. Just no support to spouse and kids. Just once in three weeks pizza. He sent. He thinks he's trying to do a lot, but family's not responding. Says he wants unconditional support. How do I deal with that? Boy, you've got a couple of those schemes going on there. Um, I think— and Kim, I definitely want you to answer this too— but I think that this is a good example of watching the whole movie and not the beginning of the movie and changing your strategy. Like, sounds like you've— he's living with his parents for a reason. Sounds like you're getting sort of gaslit there a little bit. And I would just— if that's the case, I would hold your line and just see what actually Transpires over longer term. I mean, sending pizza and then saying, I want unconditional support. I want to come home because I can send pizza. That's silly. And you know it, obviously, but I would say sit.

The other thing, and you've heard us say this before, it's actually a motivational interviewing technique. I don't remember the actual name of it. So I call it put your— put the— take the weapon out of their hand essentially, but just agree with them. So when this person says, I want unconditional Me too. Like, I want, I want that too for our family. And, but you can hear I'm, I'm aligning with that, and it is gonna sound a little bit like I'm poking the bear. The person that's saying this is gonna come back and say, well, why aren't you giving it to me? Or that's a bunch of BS. Or they're gonna challenge you on that. And this is where it's the, okay, okay, I, you know, I can think about that. And then you walk away. Or you could, because this also borders on the line of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, depending on how outta control it gets and how frequent it is. So you can also just put a really firm, hey, we've had this conversation, we're not going to see eye to eye on it, and I'm not going to engage in this with you, and you can walk away. So when they are accusing you of things that truly are outlandish and hurtful, and you can feel your ability to regulate yourself kind of reaching the max, get out of there as soon as you can. You don't always have to be super nice and super, super agreeing with it, like, oh, okay, I can think about it. You don't always have to do that. You can certainly be firm and direct and say, You and I don't see it that way. And I really am just going to remove myself from the conversation, but I agree with you. It's important for me that there is support in this situation and then back out.

And that's a good example of not playing with addiction. As you feel that rising, then that's what that is. That's awareness in your little heart and brain that this is irritating you because it is addiction. And so Kim's, that second response is a really good way to just not play.

Right, right.

All right, Dale. My loved one minimized all my support during her four weeks of sobriety. She accused me of negative support. It's very hard to not react to those attacks.

Yes, it is.

Yes, it is. But my guess would be she was scheming that she was going to end her four weeks of sobriety, and she was building her case. A little bit of backstory going on in there. A little bit of manipulation was. She's going to accuse you because she already knows this is, this has a very finite, very short and finite end.

Right. The other thing to piggyback on that, and Dale, I don't know if this is your story or not, but it's, it's common to where in a situation like that, the person that, that is trying to get sober, they're doing their own version of sobriety and your version of sobriety is not the same as their version of sobriety. So maybe they've cut out everything, but they're still smoking a little weed on the side. And so they're like, I am sober. Like, I don't understand why this isn't good enough. But in your mind, a little weed on the side is not sober. So, and again, I'm not saying that that's your situation, but we see that sometimes where the definition of sobriety doesn't match. And so then the family gets a lot of negative feedback from that.

I think that's a good point. Also, not just necessarily the definition, but the time limit in which sobriety will be tolerated is different. We see this a lot. This they'll say I'm gonna I won't drink for thirty days, and that's an Amber strategy to get them to go to that. But they are serious, and they mean at on day at midnight on day thirty, I'm I'm getting up and opening a bottle of wine. But the spouse is always like I really wanted this to be forever, and so then we play that seesaw game, and that's really hard to to do. All right, the lie about reducing alcohol intake and taking naltrexone to assist when in fact there's four months worth of naltrexone in the bathroom drawer. That's one of the reasons I don't like naltrexone. I think if the person is scheming, naltrexone is a daily, in my opinion, daily argument with self. Should I take it? Should I not take it? And the disease is going to find a good reason pretty soon to not take it. And that's that's really difficult because the person that's like buys the buys that is like doesn't even think that they will drink. It's just like oh yeah we're running we're in a hurry we'll take it later or. Well, it's a Monday. I'm definitely not gonna drink today. And it kind of upsets my stomach and I've got a big presentation at work, so I'm just not gonna take it. And that daily battle I find very fatiguing for the person who really might be struggling with, with staying sober. So that's why I'm a bigger fan of Vivitrol because you don't have to have that. But every 30 days you have to have that conversation with yourself. But yeah.

Good example of a scheme.

Yeah, and we very, very common example of a scheme. Yeah, so tough place to be the wife, isn't it? It's hard to be the loved one, period. Like it's just because because of everything we're talking about today is it it impacts us so constantly and so negatively because we don't what do we believe? Do we engage? What do we say? Where's our peace of mind? Where's our quality time? It's usually not, and that's. And we're not doing anything wrong. Ashley says, "My husband gets mad at me for how I react to his actions while he has been drinking, and then he drinks more because he says he doesn't want my attitude. So then I just try to go quiet." Yeah, that's that's deflective. It's also not true.

Actually, it's not true. He I mean, you may have an attitude when he drinks, and he may not like the attitude, but he would be drinking any. Anyway, even because my guess is when you're quiet, he may not get there as fast, but he probably accuses you of being cold or withdrawn, and now he's lonely, or he, you know, you don't ever laugh at his jokes or whatever it might be. So, but you can hear on that, either way you lose, because with active addiction, they have to set the stage for why it's okay that I'm doing this.

Mm-hmm.

And, and that's a really common one from, you know, the using spouse will accuse the non-using spouse of something pretty cruel and pretty awful. And that can happen very frequently, but it does make the non-using spouse kind of retreat or aggress. And either way, if you do that too much, you're going to lose no matter what. So I would encourage you, be true to who you are and handle your needs in that moment more so than trying to play to what you think is going to be best for him.

I am super glad you said that because I think that's a really confusing message for a lot of people is that I have to play nice. I have to be neutral. I have to not kick the beast. I can't be the bad guy. And I love what you just said, which is sometimes we just have to do what's good for us. And just whether it's harsh and not wonderful to them, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, they're going to do what they're going to do no matter how you show up. Remember my story about using— because I had on clothes that matched the sofa? Like, that's a perfect example of they will find a way To do what they want to do and what the disease wants them to do.

And I'm going to piggyback on top of that because everything you said is true, but we can accidentally make it easier for them by— if we have this big, huge emotional reaction, or if we're saying, well, what I need is to unleash on you and let you know all the horrible, terrible things that you've done— even though we have that natural response and maybe all the things that we're saying is that they're true, they're then going to take that and it's going, now you're the target, now you're back in the bad guy role. So when we say that it is this fine line between taking care of yourself, being stern in what you need to, having nice boundaries that keep you safe, but also not accidentally feeding into, now I have a spouse problem, not an addiction problem.

I agree with you, but I think they're going to twist it so they have a spouse problem regardless. So I like what you said initially, which is be true to what you need to take care of in that moment. Leave, leave. If it's go upstairs, go upstairs. If it's sit there and finish watching the football game, do it what works for you.

Yeah.

Regardless of how they're going to twist it.

Yeah. Because they will. They'll twist. They'll twist it. You can do it 100% accurate, in line with the strategy, and it can be twisted.

All right. So do we mean to say that he has to support us from far away instead of his false promises? That we can think of letting him back in the house, or just let him in and see what he does. I— you can do whichever, like, your little heart tells you is the right answer. There's no wrong or right, but I'm a big believer in action speaks louder than words. And so that's what I meant when, like, watch the movie for a minute. And because if he's serious, if he's, if he's genuine with this, if this is really good intention, he will support from afar, even though he'll want to Come home, but he will show up well. And at that point, then you're like, okay, well now the actions are telling me the story. Once you get them in the house, if the if it was just talk and talk is cheap, then you have to go through the trauma of getting them back out of the house. Whether that's like a hard conversation, a big blowup, legal involvement. Are there children in the house? Like where where's the safety, stability, and consistency? So again, there's no wrong or right one on this. If you, if you were like, it's Christmas, I really can't stand this, let 'em come home. But you are watching for actions, not words. Words mean nothing with addiction. Actions mean everything.

Yeah.

Humility and willingness are the things you're looking for.

Yep. And if in the example that Campbell gave, you're letting them come home for Christmas, But it's only for Christmas, then make sure you have that end date. Make sure that it's very, very clear that this is the amount of time that, that I'm allowing you back into the home. And then to even kind of speak on a, a broader term, once you've asked them to leave, chances are you've asked them to leave unless it was a really impulsive decision and you're like, I really shouldn't have done that. Like, I'm not really there in the strategy. Then you can backpedal. But most of the time when someone has been asked to leave the home, Mm-hmm. It's been a thought-out process. It's hard to say it. It's hard to get yourself ready to do it. So as far as, well, maybe I should just let him back, back in and see what he does or she does, that's probably not your best strategy. Your best strategy most likely is to, you know, listen to what Campbell said there, and actions are much more powerful than words. If you're not seeing actions from far away, chances are you're not going to see actions when they're back in the house.

No. And remember, humility and willingness tell us the best part of the story. Is, is this person for real? Is this person genuinely making an effort? Um, and if you are humble enough to do whatever is asked of you, required of you, or put upon you based upon what's happened in the past, then that would be a good sign. But saying, I need to come home, you're being blah, blah, blah, that to me is not humble or willing.

Yeah.

All right. My alcoholic husband says he can't get a job because I won't let him use my car. I won't let him use my car because he totaled his, and we are now a one-car household. So that is exactly a good example of you holding a boundary that's good for you, and he is going to blame you on that. But sooner or later, like you could give him an Uber fund. You could. There's a million ways around this. You could say I would be happy to. To put $100 a week on an Uber for you to go on job interviews and get a job and go for that until you can get your own money for Uber. Like, there's ways around that, but hold your line on that because otherwise he'll total your car and you'll have no cars. Right.

That's a good example of a minimization and a deflection scheme wrapped up into one and a future because he's, you know, being able to minimize why there's only one house, why there's only one car in the house. Deflecting on the fact that he was drinking and driving, and that's why you guys are in the predicament that he's in, and preparing himself to be able to have transportation. So with these schemes, they certainly can, you know, you can have more than one at a time, which makes them harder to deal with, but common.

Yeah. Uh, my loved one is 7 months sober, but every 2 weeks it seems like there are schemes where they are being the victim, and it doesn't even have to do with drugs or alcohol, but just things he wants to do. I, my opinion on this is lying and scheming, these become automatic thoughts in the brain. Addiction makes them automatic, and the more they use them, the bigger the thought pattern, the connection, the pathway for the thought becomes. It takes a while, like sometimes 3 months or so, for the lying and the scheming and the victim thinking to abate or to go away completely. So I think I would just be patient on that, try not to get sucked in on that, and hope that that's what this is, is just the brain is just— that's just the pattern it's used to running, and so it's going to keep running the same play.

Yeah.

How do you stay out of the bad guy role when you need their help setting things up for the holidays? We had a huge fight and he crossed a line he has never done before.

I think this is, um, I think this is a good place to plug in what we say often, which is you will be accused of being the bad guy even when you're not. And there is a difference between being the bad guy and being accused of the bad guy. So you— there may not be anything that you can do in this situation as far as to stay out of the bad guy. And, and I think as far as when, when we do need their help, sometimes we have to adjust what life looks like right now. Because sometimes they're not willing to give us the help that that we that we need or we want, and so we either have to change the way we're living right now or we have to get help from different places. And because we can't make them do that, and it but it sounds to me without knowing any of the background that that maybe you weren't really the bad guy; you were just pushed into that role.

That's what I think. Yeah. All right. Question is how to make an appointment with one of us. There's a link in the description of this video that. Lead you to be able to make an appointment with either one of us. So you can just push the link, or click the link I think is the right words, um, or you can always call the office at 864-906-2395 and our fabulous office manager Bree will make you an appointment. Um, Ashley, I'm going to read it over here. Would telling them they are deflecting do anything for them to understand, or does that feel like an attack for them? Oh, they'll twist that around and Jump it back in your lap so fast your pants will be on fire. Just know it. Just know it. And that's a good time to be like, "You may be right." All right, I can see that. I'll work on that. Just don't engage with that. But pointing it out is like you're just you're just gunning for another fight.

Yeah. Don't use any any I was gonna say counseling terms like minimization, deflection. Blaming. Don't use any of that language, right? Because they're just going to turn that on you. It's going to seem— it's going to push buttons. So don't use those words.

Beth, he keeps drinking and— oh, I'm sorry, I'm reading the wrong one. Dale said, I always thought the manipulations were instantaneous reactions. The scheming concept makes a lot of sense and this fills in a lot of gaps from the past few years. Yeah. And then Beth said, he keeps drinking and driving. Should I just file separation to protect myself? That's up to you, but it certainly would be an option if, if you feel like he's putting your finances in danger, your car in danger, your children in danger for sure, or yourself, and he's not going to stop, then you have to decide how much longer do I want to live in this swamp?

And I always think, I mean, as most people think, knowledge is power. So the more information that you can figure out, the more empowered you're going to feel. So I think in that situation, Beth, absolutely speak to an attorney in your state, figure out what your options are, figure out what you need to do to protect all the things that you need to protect.

And given that, that doesn't mean necessarily you have to take that action now just because you've talked to an attorney, but you will know if when you get to that point where you're like, that's that, you'll know what you're doing. So your anxiety level will be down. You won't have to like go into the reeling stage again. You'll already have the information you need and you can just utilize it, which I think is much more calming than, oh God, I've hit this point, but now I don't know what to do. I got to make some calls. Yeah.

And even, even in that, I've had one client that wasn't quite sure when they wanted to separate, but when they went to an attorney and the attorney said, you're the way that, the way that the jobs are set up right now, if something bad happens, you will be on the hook for alimony. And at that point, that was the decision for my client to say, I'm filing for separation because I'm not willing. I'm not willing to have to pay alimony for the rest of my life. And if I hit, if I separate right now, I won't have to do that. But if this plays out for another year, I will have to. So that's an example of knowledge is power, and it can help you decide what you need to do in the moment that you're in.

Mm-hmm. This person is saying the channel is helping me a ton. My mother's an alcoholic. We keep it secret. All the daughters have poor coping mechanisms. Sister is an anorexic. Have you heard of ACA Fellowship before? I don't know what ACA Fellowship is.

I will Google it, but no, I don't right now.

Yeah, I don't. I don't know what that is, but we see this a lot in families with addiction generationally: is that addiction is not safe, addiction is out of control, addiction is. Um, an unreliable environment. And so a lot of addictions like anorexia, these are ways to gain some control back, to put some reliability back in. I can control everything about what I'm doing that helps me not be able to control what's going on, even though it's the same disease as far as how it impacts the brain. A lot of times those secondary addictions we see with substance abuse or some other primary disruptive Addiction that goes on in the house. Oh yes, adult children are tolerant. Yes.

Now onto something.

Yes.

What was that other question?

Thank you, Margaret. Thank you. Yes, 100%. That's that. And we tell people this all the time. Like when a spouse is like debating, should I ask my spouse to live elsewhere? And there are children in the house who are aware is that ACA is there's a whole checklist of things that a That these children grow up to exhibit. And a lot of it is they have their own addiction or they marry another addict. They're super codependent. And so it just keeps feeding itself out, which is why to recognize when this is not good for the children in the home. And I need to, I need to get out of the marriage because you don't, that's, you don't want to have children with ACA.

No, you don't.

I've seen, we've seen Vivitrol work for someone who's been drinking 30 years, started at 14. How long does it take to work? I have seen Vivitrol work, haven't you, Kim? Like, it's just, does the person want to be sober? Like, Vivitrol, Soberlink, naltrexone— these things are great if you want to be sober and you are dedicated to it and you are humble and willing. If you're just doing it to appease someone, there's going to be a— they'll find it like the, I don't want the shot, it hurts my bottom. It wears off. I'm drinking anyway. So these rationalizations for people to get out of Soberlink, Vivitrol, naltrexone, and abuse backtrack. Anything we put in there, you have to look at the person's true desire for sobriety. But Vivitrol is a great option if that's something that's going on. All right. Bree says we're done. All right, guys, thanks a bunch. Um, hope that you are much more aware of scheming and live a more peaceful life because of it. Thanks a bunch. Have a great one.

Bye, guys.