The Most Courageous Addiction Recovery Story You've Ever Heard

In 2010, I got off the airplane in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I was arrested. And I had been working at sobriety. Now I wasn't completely sober, but I was doing a lot better with things. And I thought like, my past was somewhat behind me for some things, but I stepped off this airplane in Raleigh, coming back for a visit from Canada, and I got arrested right there. And that was really, that was really one of the big moments where I realized I needed to make changes for my life, like where things had. And it was, it was just kind of that weird thing because I wasn't, I wasn't at a rock bottom at that point in my life. Like things were decently okay. And I guess I, in a way I kind of hit one of my biggest rock bottoms. And it just reminded me of like the past is sometimes you have to deal with stuff. Things don't always just go away because you're trying to better yourself. And in trying to get sober, that's what I, what I kind of took from it.

I mean, it must have felt like, kind of unfair though, right? Like you're trying to do good, you had your life getting on track, and now like out of nowhere, like arrested.

Yeah. I mean, it all happens so quick too. I don't know that. I don't. I mean I, I can see that angle for it, but I had done so much other stuff in my life that I wasn't necessarily busted for, you know, So I think it all just kind of caught up with me and it, and looking back, it was actually the best thing to really ever happen in my life. Which, like, is another strange thing to say. But it was, it was a, it was a different but incredible experience.

Did you like have an idea that was there like a warrant out for you? Like, did you have an idea that that could happen or was it like, what the heck, you know? Yeah. No.

Good question. Yeah, there were definitely warrants. But leading up to that, for the previous year, I was really heavy into my addiction. So I had no car, no driver's license, no job. I was living on my brother's floor of his apartment. I was living a pretty low key life. So they were obviously looking for me. I used to get phone calls, right, from FedEx. They would say, oh, it's FedEx and you have a, a package, right, that you have to sign for. So meet us.

They probably bust you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So meet us at your parents place. And I was like, you know, like I just described my life and obviously nobody was sending me anything important in the mail from FedEx that I didn't know about that I needed to sign. Right. You won a prize. I used to get these calls, and I never put the pieces of the puzzle together until, you know, two. Two years later, what this was. And then. Yeah, I mean, it just kind of. It was definitely. Yeah, there was warrants, and then I would get a phone call here or there when I was living up in Canada that they wanted to see me. But I had an idea there was warrants, but I did not have an idea of how serious they were. Like, I didn't. This was all for. For drug trafficking charges, and I had sold narcotics to an undercover police officer that my friend. Friend I thought was my. I mean, he was a friend. I mean, he got caught, too. Like, there's no blame on him, but he kind of set up this deal and. And they just kept doing it, right? They kept doing this deal. And, like, it's. It's not to blame anybody for the thing. I mean, obviously I made choices, but would I have done what I did if I wasn't pressured or put in a situation? You know, I mean, it's kind of like with the law, right? Like, they're calling all the time. Police officers are calling. And. And at the time I was on methadone. I wasn't into drug dealing. I wasn't living that life. I never was really into drug dealing. The only drug dealing I ever did was to support a habit of addiction. It wasn't. Right, like, buy yachts and anything fancy.

Right.

It's kind of a. I mean, it was kind of a strange thing to get wrapped up into. But, yeah, they were calling all the time, need this, need that. And I'm just like, I don't know anybody. I really didn't know anybody. And then, you know, a couple times I caved into it. And, like, I mean, we're talking maybe two, $300, you know, and then you end up with eight felony counts of. Of drug trafficking. Wow. You know what I mean? Like. Right. It's. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, but I mean, full accountability on my end, too, right? Like, I. My arm wasn't twisted that much to where I had to go through with this. I obviously made choices. But, you know, part of it, too, is, you know, I mean, was it. Was I taken advantage of for being naive and being young? I. I don't know. I mean, maybe so, but it helped me. I mean, ultimately, it's. It really helped me out. So I try to, you know, focus more on that. Right?

What was it about that moment that was different? Because to me, it sounds like one of those. I call them, like, a moment of clarity where it's just like, I knew, you know, like, I just saw it differently, and I knew something different. What was it that happened at that moment that changed for you?

Yeah, well, when I got off the airplane, too, like, my life was better in a lot of aspects when I got off that airplane. I was dating this. This girl for, like, two, three. Two to three years, probably three years beforehand. And she was incredible. And she was set to. She was gonna pick me up from the airport that day. We were gonna reconnect, and we'd been talking on the mobile and stuff for a while, while I was living up in Canada, and we were going to reconnect. So I was excited for this to kind of be a different person. Right. I was just not doing well. And that showed in relationships and in everything else in my life. And when the cops put me up on the car to do their search and, like, pat you down and everything like that, I saw her out of the corner of my eye. I saw her drive by the laneway. Every airport's got, like, the pickup lane where you drive by and you can't stop, right? So she has no idea, right, that I'm on the back.

She's just coming to pick you up, right?

Like, yeah. And when she drove by, she didn't have any idea I was on the back of this cop car, But I saw her to the corner of my eye, and she just had a smile from ear to ear. Like, this was, like, an opportunity for us to. To reconnect and stuff. And I was excited and she was excited. And I had this overwhelming kind of experience then to where I just was thinking to myself, like, you got to stop letting other people down, and you got to stop letting yourself down, ultimately. And I kind of made this little promise to myself. I guess you could say that that was enough of that, that I was gonna do really whatever it took, you know? And I didn't set out to get sober. I didn't set out to just be a good person, be a better person, follow through with what I say I'm gonna do and show up in the world better than how I've been operating for the last five, six years. And know soon after that, I found out, like, if I was going to do any of that, like, the way I use drugs and drank alcohol, I would have to include sobriety into that, because it wasn't possible for me once the substances Hit then that was all I was worried about.

So that's interesting. So your thought was, you know, I don't want to let anybody else down. I don't want to. I don't want to feel this way. I want to be a better person. But even in that moment, even though you sort of made that, you know, resolution to yourself, you still didn't quite connect that it was the drugs and alcohol that was causing you to be the person that was disappointing people. That took longer. When did that part come?

Yeah, well, I mean, that probably wasn't until I was in jail for a bit. Like, I wouldn't say it was a long process to, you know, put two and two together. I started going to groups, I started going to meetings, you know, talking to other people and you could reading books. You know, I quickly figured out that that was going to have to be part of this process.

So when you, they arrested you, they took you to jail and how long were you, like, how long? Like, what were you looking at? What were you talking about? Like three months, three years?

Yeah. No, I think it was something like 20 years.

20 years?

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I know, overwhelming. But things actually played out in my favor. I mean, for a lot of different reasons. It was kind of a give and take scenario. Towards the end, I waited about seven months to go to court. My, my, my folks too were kind of done supporting this journey financially. Like, they weren't supporting it. I had been arrested other times. I was a convicted felon at 18. I got first charged with first felony charges when I was 16. Those got Dr. I got, I pled guilty to misdemeanor. I was on probation from 16 to 17. I was on probate felony probation from 18 to 19 or 20. I had to submit DNA sample and fingerprints, you know, all, everything you had to do. And yeah, so I kind of, I had a big history of addiction, right. Like I had been to a treatment program for 17 months. I had been to countless meetings, Celebrate Recovery, AA N A, all the different groups. I'd been to therapy, counseling, I mean, since I was just young, since I can remember, obviously, you know, when I was 10 and 11, it wasn't for addiction, but it was for dysfunction, you know, and behaviors. I was diagnosed with adhd, put on Adderall when I got into high school, put on medications for depression, anxiety. And so there was a long history of this stuff. It wasn't like this. What, what the lawyer kind of was presenting is that I was someone who struggled with substance use disorder. I was not a And that's, that was the truth. I was not a, a drug dealer type fella. So we are able to kind of prove that without a doubt. The lawyer was able to grab, you know, four or five binders. I mean they were this thick of all the paperwork over the years. That kind of helped me out with that. And after about seven months I went to court and it was the cr. It was the wildest day. Right. So things kept getting pushed off, pushed off. My grandparents came through to hire this attorney. It's like 25 grand for this guy.

Wow.

Yeah. So I mean, these are expensive con. Expensive consequences, expensive stuff to experience. And I go into the courtroom one day and it keeps getting pushed off. I don't even know if I'm going into court today. And I'm in this, they call it a bullpen. But it's like everybody waiting for court. I mean it's complete chaos. Like if, if you had a room full of five year olds, but like where everybody's just going crazy. Like a small bedroom and they're all just bouncing around. But you have adults in there and everybody's just bouncing around because the anxiety and everything. Everybody's getting sentenced and it's like, oh man, we're getting, you know, in and it wasn't good for people.

You're like waiting to have this moment, which is like a huge moment in your life and.

Okay, yeah, so I'm waiting in there and I'm thinking everybody's coming back to like five years, 10 years. And most of these people been around the block a few times so they kind of know what's up. Like, it's just, it's a strange environment, right? It's like, yeah, let's go, I'll see you in a couple weeks at the, the penitentiary and stuff. And it's just. And I was just like, ah, this kid, you know, this cannot be my life. Like, this is not where. How the, how the heck did I end up here? So they come in and they pull me out of this area and they bring me to like another floor and I've got the, the leg shackles and the bond was set at $250,000. So obviously like, I'm not bonding out. So I was in jail for the seven, eight months to go to the court date. And then they put me in this quieter much. It was, I was the only person in. I was the only person in this little bullpen area. So I was much more relaxed. And I was in there for maybe 15, 20 minutes. My lawyer comes in and the lawyer says, brad, they won't agree to the plea. Right. We were looking for like eight months for the judge, for the D. A to. To agree on eight months. And then we just go up and I plead guilty to everything. So he's like, the only other option we really have right now is that you can go and do an open plea. So I'm like, okay. You know, and the lawyer, they don't spend much time with you. It's not like he came in and told me about this stuff before. And I've been in jail for eight months. I've seen him for maybe 15, 20 minutes.

Wow.

So it's not like he's coming in and he's telling you, like, hey, this is what. You know, there's none of that stuff. You get a few things in the mail and you can call his office if you want, but they usually don't have much news until it kind of comes down. So he says, we can do this open plea. This is basically the D. A and me come to the. To agreement to leave it up to the judge. We'll present the case. And I've just seen this stuff on tv, right, where you're presenting this case and it's like maybe an hour long and talking about this guy's history and why he's such a good guy and we shouldn't, you know, put him away forever. And it was none of that. It was about four minutes of them talking up at the. Be up at the bench there. I guess they caught up by the judge. Yeah, my attorney. So, yeah, he explained the open plea. Hey, it's going to be up to the judge to decide right here on the spot. Like, is it 20 years or is it eight months? It's up to him to figure out.

You're just sitting there watching them talk about your fate.

Yeah, okay. And I'm sure there's a lot that probably happened behind the scenes, too, like beforehand, before this went in, because he was trying to set it up. Right. A strategy for them is get the right judge, get the right day, get. You know, I mean, there's a. There's a strategy that they kind of put in place that he was a ex district attorney too, this lawyer. So, you know, he knew people and he, you know, he had an idea. Right. But I just had to trust the guy. He wasn't looking. He wasn't looking for my input, I'll tell you that. And one of the sad things about all this too, though, is when I went to the courtroom, it was. It was empty. But it was my mom and my brother in all the years of having. And not that I wanted anybody to be there, because that would have been extremely strange, but it's kind of like with all the years, me running around, and I thought I meant something to people and, like, I belonged somewhere and I had a purpose in people's lives. Like, what that just showed me is really, at the end of the day, I just didn't. I just didn't. None of that stuff mattered. The stuff I thought mattered. It didn't matter. You know, this is my mom and my brother sitting in here, and I'm like, in a jumpsuit and in handcuffs, legs and hands, and this is where I am. And, you know, so it's kind of a. It was a strange experience. But the judge. I'll never forget it, because the judge sits back in his chair, right? It's almost 5 o', clock, like 4 o'. Clock. And they're probably done soon, right? And all of us have had a job, and we all know when it gets to the end of the day, we might be a little bit sloppy or we might be in a hurry to get to the. The hockey game or the. The supper with friends. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, this guy is. He's gonna bury me and. And he's gonna go to supper afterwards and. And everything is gonna be done. And I want to be like, you know, I'm gonna be screwed. So he leans back in his chair, he takes off his glasses, right? He takes his glasses off, and I'm thinking, oh, my God. You know, I'm just shaking. I'm literally shaking. I'm praying to whatever will listen in my head, right? Not out loud, but in my head, I'm thinking, my goodness, there's something out there. Help me out. Help me out right now. And he actually sat back in his chair, and it took him. Took him only a few seconds, and he sat forward, he signed the paperwork. He said, eight, six to eight months, Department of Corrections. And I was like, oh, wow. I just, you know, I just got a second shot at all this. And part of the deal was now there was. There was a deal to it that I would have to plead guilty to all the felonies. I think it was about six felony charges. And because I only held a green card in the. In the U.S. i lived in the U.S. since I was like, 6, 7, but I only held a green card. I wasn't a citizen then. I could be deported back to Canada, where I was born. And I haven't lived in Canada since I was 6. I didn't really know anybody beyond my family type deal. But that was kind of part of the deal because they knew once I got convicted of all the felonies that I would qualify for deportation. So I ended up finishing up my time there and then I. Then I got transferred over to ice. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Yeah, I mean that was a whole, not four months. That was a four month process. You couldn't buy your own plane ticket. I had a passport and everything other nationalities would be shipped out every day. But there was some problem with being Canadian that it took four months. So they would jump me from jail to jail every couple weeks. I go from. I don't know, nor I North Carolina, here, there, South Carolina, Tennessee. And I ended up in Georgia, in Atlanta, Georgia, hall county, actually, first for a couple months and then. And then I ended up in Atlanta, Georgia, like two nights before they brought me downtown. It's a huge. This place is like a huge jail downtown. And it is a mad house. I mean a mad house. And I had an idea I was going home after that. So then the, the next morning they say, yeah, pack your stuff. And they brought me right into the back, back of the airport there. Atlanta International Airport. Brought me up flight of stairs. I had no shoelaces. Everything I owned was literally only thing I owned was a box. It was a box of paperwork. That's all I had to my name on that day. And. But it was, it was a great day. And that's kind of. I got the, the one way flight back and my life really started over. So.

Wow. So, so you, they fly you to Canada and then you get off an airplane and then you just go your own way. Is that what happens?

Yeah, pretty much. When I got off the airplane, the customs in Canada, they were like, where have you been? They obviously already knew. Like, yeah, I'm sure they would have told them. Right? So they, they interviewed me. The, the police officers there in the airport, they interviewed me. Check my record and stuff. I never lived in Canada or anything, so. So there was no problem. And you know, they were good. They were good. Hey, do you have somewhere to go? Do you have some picking you up? Like they weren't just gonna throw me out like in the middle of the city, but I had my uncle that was picking me up and everything. So everything was good. Yeah, my uncle picked me up and that's when I started living with my, My grandparents took me in to live with them.

Wow. I mean, when I listen to you tell that story, it's just almost like in my mind I visualize you just like, almost like a paper doll in like an orange jumpsuit, just in the wind, whichever way the wind blows. I mean, it must just feel so. Like you had zero control. You just like didn't know where you're gonna land, don't know what things are gonna happen, and you're just like at the mercy, I guess I would say.

Yeah. Yeah, good. That's a great way to put it, you know, but even, even though that situation was heavy and all that stuff is so true, like, like that situation was a lot more beautiful than like using drugs every single day. Because, you know, I mean, that, that story right there had a possibility at some point, even if it was after 20 years, at some point there would be a happy ending to that story. And that's kind of why I'm grateful for it. Because the other way of me using substances all day and every day, that life, there's no, there's, you know, the continuing with that is not going to provide a good result for me anyway. Wouldn't have. I was headed, you know, downhill real fast.

So let's back up then and tell me about sort of what all led to this situation that at the airport, you know, when did it start? What were you addicted to? How did it, how did it come to this?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a long. That's a long story, Amber. I mean, I think, I think growing up too, my mom, my mom had twins when she was 16, right. So that I think from the beginning, without anybody even knowing that the odds were going to be a little bit difficult. So my grandparents helped raise us. Well, my mom went back to school, she went to school for nursing and my grandparents used to raise us. But what I remember from that time is not much, but I just remember kind of getting my way with things, right. Grandparents, they're going to look after you. They're going to get you. Yeah. What you want, you know, which is incredible. But I don't know if that's the healthiest thing to have 24, seven, you know, because then you have a hard time hearing. No. So then my mom got a job in Texas and we left when I was about 6 years old. And then now it's my mom, my brother and I, and she's raising us on our own, right. We went from a five bedroom house, a lot of stability, to a lot of unknown babysitters. Two bedroom apartment. My brother and I shared a room, mom working nights. Right. Just starting Nursing career, right. She's working overnight, sleeping during the day. And I started to just feel like I, excuse me, didn't belong in the world. I felt a lot of rejection and it wasn't even necessarily others actions that was rejecting me, but I just felt like I just wasn't part of this world. I felt like I was in a snow globe and the world was going on around me. And I felt like that like my whole, my whole life up until like I ended up getting sober and ended up like looking at, you know, what happened. I, I got stuck for so long in my life thinking drugs and alcohol were the problem, but I didn't realize I had sobered up hundreds of times and absolutely nothing changed. So that part of not belonging. And then I started to get in trouble, right? I started to get suspended from school in like grade six. I was doing in school suspension. I just wasn't following rules. I was like hyperactive, hard, like big time, all over the place. Never did homework, never passed the test, really struggled. And I mean, that destroys your self esteem too, right? All your classmates are celebrating, you know, their, their scores. And I would just take mine and just put it in a ball and just throw in my backpack, right. And then I bring it home for my folks. My folks are like, like, what's up? You know, I mean, what's going on? You, you don't do anything, get in a fight every night? Homework. I don't want to do homework. I just want to hang out, you know, So I mean, just every signal I was getting was just like I just wasn't good enough and I didn't feel good enough, you know. So that stuff piled up, right? The voices in my head, the own, the story I told myself, I mean, everything. I feel like I just failed, no matter how hard I tried. And then I had a little bit of an operation. It was a hernia repair. And I had some pain pain medication prescribed. And my goodness, you know, I mean, it did exactly that. It took away the pain, an hernia. And it took away the pain in.

My mind, the emotional pain. Yeah.

You know, for once I was, I felt like, wow, I can just kind of be with myself. And I, I couldn't do that before. And there was a whole bunch of other stuff. Codependent relationships, trouble with the police too. Like I said, like I was getting in trouble, sneaking out, running away. I mean, you pretty much name it, I probably, probably did part of it, you know, I mean, it was just complete dysfunction. And then when I turned 17, I started to have really bad depression, anxiety. This codependent relationship would trigger this depression. I mean, this thing, this relationship was, I mean, as toxic as they get. Like, it should have just if there was a spark near to me, it would have exploded. And I started to feel suicidal. And I never talked to anybody about any of this stuff, right. Growing up. Right. And I never mentioned anything to anybody that anything was wrong with my life. And then I talked to this school counselor and I had mentioned to, like, what I was thinking and what was going on. And so my parents were like, you got to get into the hospital, right? So what do you. So I go into the UNC Chapel Hill Psychiatric unit. I think they call it different now, but psychiatric hospital there, it's on like the 10th floor or something. And I stay there for a couple days, whatever. I mean, really, we just hung out. I mean, the other patients there, we just kind of kicked it. Had some, you know, cook for us meals, great program, I'm sure. But I didn't see anything wrong with my life. So I'm like, well, what? You know, I mean, this is a big joke. That's how I felt about it. It's sad looking back, you know, I, I. Hindsight's always 20 20, but I may have been able to avoid a lot of the madness if I had been able to just share. I just couldn't share what was going on. I just couldn't do it. I didn't know how to connect the dots, and I had no ide. Now I talk like it and I hear myself, and I get it now, but at the time I'm telling you, I was so lost. I had no idea. And I was just, you know, when I was 16, I just felt like my life was over. Literally, I'm like, my life's. It's just over. And I got out of there and I mean, things weren't better. You know, things didn't get any better. Nothing changed. Maybe for a couple days, I was like, yeah, I'll do what I need to do. A couple months later, I had another flare up of this, you know, these suicidal thoughts and stuff. And, you know, this time the behaviors were just bonkers, out of control. So my parents were like, you need to get some help. We need to go to, like, rehab. You know, and I hadn't even started doing drugs or anything yet. But these behaviors, I mean, the red flags were, were there, right? Like, this is. This doesn't end good. They were consulting, right? My parents were always in therapy. My mom was always in therapy. She always did because she learned early on, I think, that she was not going to be able to change me. The only way that she was going to be able to maybe get through this was to look after herself, you know, which is a hard conclusion to come to. Right? It's. This was my problem. These were my choice, my decisions. But it had such a big impact in on her that I think that's why she went and, you know, got help for herself. So ever since I can remember, she's been in therapy. But so they have people coming to this psychiatric hospital back at uncle. I'm a little bit more serious, but I'm not very serious, you know. And they send in this guy, he's a representative for this program. It's a three month program, behavioral health program. And it was like an hour from where I was at. I have friends, I have, you know, I. I could only see to Friday night. My ability in my, in my brain would only allow me to see to Friday night. And I couldn't see any further. And I said, no, I can't go there. I can't go there. So my parents had a backup plan and I didn't expect this one, but they forced me to go to another program. So I woke up one morning, it was, it was like my sixth day at the hospital there. And it was really strange because they're like, we need your shoes or your laces. My, I think it was just my laces. I said, you guys never got my laces the last time. That's kind of weird. It's kind of weird, right? Like I should be any day now. And oh, well, you're, you're a flight risk. Like flight red I never even thought of at that point, but I started to think of it when they brought it up. So. So yeah, my parents, I had. I woke up one morning and there was this guy. He was kicking on the bed and he was just a bit. He was built big, big strong guy. And I'm like, oh, this guy doesn't work here because it's staffed by nurses, right? You mostly. Let's see, he did this. I hadn't seen that before, this guy, you know, I mean, he'd been working out for years. They get this bed. And I was like, this is serious. And there was also a woman with them. And they're like, oh, you got to come with us. And they were really friendly and stuff. And I'm like, oh, you know, my anxiety was just through the roof. Yeah, we're gonna take you to rehab. And I'm like, I don't even know what rehab is. I have no idea what this stuff is. But, yeah, I had to go with them, like, either by choice or they were gonna probably force me to go. Yeah.

One way or the other. Yeah.

Yeah. And then I know. I thought. You know, what I thought to myself is, like, I'll just figure my. My parents. I'll. I'll talk with them. Like, we'll get this smooth now, right? It worked every other time up until that point. I get.

There's a miscommunication. We can get this worked out. Yeah.

Yeah. I was like, yeah, like, I'll get on the phone with my folks. Like, I'll tell Mom I'm gonna change, and we'll get everything. We'll get everything figured out. This would be no Bobby, home in a couple days, and everything's good. But another part of me too realized, like, yo, this is for real. Because this is. This is for real stuff. So all I know how to do up until this point in my life is run from my problems physically, emotionally, is run and avoid and kind of act like a class clown, get it. Get attention in toxic ways and bad relationships. You know? I mean, I'd like to say there was some good things going on, but, you know, it's hard to find them, right? It was hard. Of course, there were good times. I had good times. I had a couple good buddies I would run with that were just. They were so kind, and they were so good. I mean, we had a lot of fun times, you know, where we didn't get in trouble. And I had good times with my parents, too. But I was really unplugged. I was really unplugged and from the relationships. So they bring. They bring me in. They put. They put me in the car. The guy sits in the back, the woman drives. I got this idea brewing in my head, right? I've never once in my life faced any problems in my life. And I can't start now. I keep telling myself, you can't start now. You gotta. You gotta. Gotta get out of this situation. It's all I knew how to do. I tell them I gotta go to the washroom. So they pull over on the interstate, the little rest areas. I go to the washroom. I've got on a pair of little gym. Little gym shorts, you know, with the bands on the bat, Elastic band, right? So the buddy. The guy's holding on to the band, go to the washroom, and I'm. I got this plan brewing, and I'm like, this is a Terrible idea. But I literally was on autopilot.

You were gonna run. You were gonna try to escape?

I did. I did run. And. Excuse me, let me get over drink here really quick. I did run. So on the. This parking lot, after you hit the parking lot, there's a drainage ditch, so I just split. It was just like an autopilot just hit me. Like, impulsive. I was extremely impulsive as well. I didn't think things completely through and I ran and he chased me. He hit that. That. A little embankment there and he fell over and I ran. And my adrenaline was pumping so high. Along the highways, they've got those. I don't know, it's maybe three foot fences and there's a little strip of bar on the top, keep deer and stuff back. I hit that thing full speed and just rolled over it. Wow. And then I was. I was still going. I got. I ran to a nest of bees. They all. I got stung so many times. And then I kept going and I was kind of on the run for, like, probably a few hours. It was hot. I had no idea where I was. I had no phone, nothing. I don't even think I had the shoelaces back at that time. Maybe I did. I can't remember. But after a while, I was walking on this road and the state trooper pulled up beside me and I was like, all right, well, this is over. I wasn't gonna mess with them. I'd already been in enough trouble at this point. Like, I knew that that was not like, that would have just worsened my case in a sense. I get back to the nice guy like you were. They, the transport people were extremely friendly. And I got back there and let me tell you, all that changed. That all changed. Handcuffs on, and I was off. The Peninsula Village. That's what the program was called.

Wow. In my mind, it's like Vin Diesel or something. He's like being your. They call them, like sober transport escorts or whatever they call them. And you're just like taking off from Vin Diesel or something and running. It's almost like. Almost like a cartoon. You run into, like that concrete thing and then the bees. And then you are like, now what do I do? Yeah.

Wow.

So was it helpful going to the. You call it Peninsula Village? Was it helpful going.

Yeah, I mean, at first it was a lot, Right. So Peninsula Village was a. Was a lockdown unit. So it was a lockdown unit. It was on a peninsula, three sides, Tennessee river, three sides water. You couldn't swim across it. One road coming in, Jig Jones Bend Road. It was a windy. It was a windy road that you kind of come down to this hill, down to the bottom here. And they had a hospital, too. Peninsula Hospital, which was a psychiatric hospital, was all fenced in. It was the real deal. And then they had this program for adolescents, and it was locked down. So you went to this basement and it was chicken wire on the windows. There was three staff around their neck. They had these little buzzers. I later. I later learned that these little buzzers would set off an alarm across both campuses if there was a restraint that had to happen. So it was. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot, right? The program, I had no idea. Like, I mean, I thought I was this innocent dude that kind of got in a little bit of trouble. And, you know, now I'm in Tennessee. I lived in North Carolina, right outside of Knoxville, Tennessee, and I'm in this program, right. They give me scrubs, hospital scrubs to put on so I couldn't run away. They take your shoes. You don't wear shoes. And it was just a lot. I don't know if you want all the details about it, but it was a lot. It was like three months of. Basically, you're in this basement, there's no going outside. The meals are brought to you. It's structured down to a t. You have 90 seconds to go pee, three minutes to do the rest of your business, seven minutes for a shower, 30 minutes for your chores. When the lights come on in the morning at 6am you have three minutes to make your bed. Your bed has to get checked. You sit on your bed, you're quiet. There's no talking, no coloring, no reading, no distractions. You do schoolwork three times a week.

So was it like therapy or was it just like count jail? I don't know. Like, was it. Was it like you have like, therapy and stuff?

Yeah, we used to. We had a family therapist you'd meet with once a week. There was a psychiatrist you'd meet with maybe once every two weeks. And then we did have groups. Yeah, we had groups two or three times a day. And we would do chores and clean the place up. Wow.

Okay. So eventually you get out of there. Yeah, yeah.

So you get out of the basement. You have to work through different levels. Right. And I heard one of the things that really changed my life too, in this program, because I still didn't follow the rules. I didn't want to conform. I didn't want to change. I just wanted to just buy time. And eventually my parents would say hey, you know what? This isn't going to work either, you know, and it was about two months in, right? Everybody usually left the program around two months. And I should have been rolling out to the cabin program and I just was just not, not following rules, not wanting to do what I need, what I needed to do. And this guy, Mr. Riddle, we used to call him, you know, Mr. Riddle was his name. And they never got the staff members there, never got personal with you. It wasn't like your buddy, it wasn't your friend. It was there. They were there to like keep order and. But he really let down his guard one time with me and he told me, like, you gotta fake it till you make it, dude, because you aren't getting it, you're not wanting to get it. You need to fake it till you make it. Me, I had no idea. I'm like, what? Whatever, dude. You know, I wasn't the biggest fan of this fella. Every time I wanted to ask a question, he would make me recite the 12 steps. And if I didn't get it bang on every time, then I couldn't ask the question. So I wasn't the biggest fan of, of, of Mr. Riddle, but I gotta give him credit because what he told me there a couple days later, it made sense. Fake it till you make it. So what I did at that point is I thought I saw somebody who was doing everything and they were doing everything they needed to do. And I watched them and I did everything they did. And I hated every second of it. I was like, this is the most ridiculous thing. You're a sellout. You know, they're gonna figure you out that this is not real. And I did that. And even though it wasn't real at the beginning, it started to become real. And I moved up the ladder and I, I ended up going into the cabin program a couple months after that. And that's where we lived in a cabin. There was maybe 10 of us boys, we lived in a cabin. We had two staff and no running water, no power, nothing like that. I was up on a hill, beautiful view. I mean the most gorgeous view in the world. You have the big river. And we used to go to school three days a week. We had a little schoolhouse with teachers. And then we used to do vocational work. So we'd build trails, we would do exercising, we would cut firewood. We had to cut all of our own firewood with ax and moles and cross cut saws. And we'd walk across campus to get our meals. This is about a two mile walk every morning, 6:00am you know, rain, shine, snow, whatever it was. You're walking two miles to get your meal and coming back. We did that three times a day. We would do our group, we would do our therapy sessions, do our groups. There was extreme accountability. There was consequences for swearing, physical consequences, swearing. 25 push ups. You know, lying was big consequence. Weren't allowed to, you know, there was tons of rules. I mean everything was, everything was figured out with this program. And then, you know, I was there for a year and towards the end too, I ended up graduating the program as an eagle. As a level of an eagle, which not a lot of people do. Like, I think when I was there for that year, I might have saw one other person. Once you reach that level, you can walk around the campus freely. You can help yourself to, you know, what other, you know, food. And we had food restrictions. But as an eagle, you could help yourself to the pop machine, unlimited ice cream. But you were disciplined at that point to where it wasn't overboard. They had a level system. It was a mouse. And then you would go, you'd go, you know, you started a pre mouse and then you moved to a mouse, then you moved to a bear and then a buffalo as alumni. But the mouse was just about earning trust. Like the mouse can only see right in front of itself. It can't see much more. The mouse is very about the mouse. So you had to work to that level and then you jump to the bear, which is more like looking within. Right? Looking at it. Looking within and seeing, you know, what's going on with yourself. And you'd have to write goals. It would take you a month and a half to write these goals to move to the next level. And then you would hit the eagle. And then the eagle was about like seeing the bigger, the bigger picture. Like seeing every, you know, seeing everything, what it is and looking in the future and you know, all that stuff. So it was what started out, Amber, as a heavy, heavy program. It was incredible. I mean it was, it was a phenomenal program that's no longer around because it was the strictness of it. Right. And, and it was bad for a lot of people. It was really bad for a lot of people, you know, but overall it was good. Yeah, so that's that, you know, and I hadn't even started doing drugs at this point.

When, when you. I kind of think about what Mr. Riddle, when he said that to you. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking because I've worked in not as Strict as that. But I've worked in these places, and I'm thinking. He's thinking this knucklehead isn't going to figure out. He just needs to, like, get through this maze. And it's funny that he's thinking that. And so he just tells you, and you're like, oh, almost like, oh, I'm supposed to just, like, go along. But eventually the fake it till you make it did work, because the. The simplicity of it and the discipline of it brings it back to the basics. And they probably don't have programs like that anymore, but they do have, like, wilderness programs, which are similar. Ish. Like treehab. And it is very, like, effective for young people. It strips away all of that garbage and builds it back, you know, to the basics. Okay.

Wow. Yeah.

You're like. You're almost like. When you say I was an Eagle, it's like an Eagle Scout or something, like. And so you. You graduate this program, your head's, you know, kind of on straight, and then what happens?

Yeah, I mean, in the program, too. I graduated high school. If I hadn't went to this program, that would never. Would have been a possibility. I applied for university. I didn't get accepted into university because I had one good year while I was in this program. But I hadn't many other years of not doing well. But they did give me a shot. They gave me some direction. They said, go to community college for a year and we'll see how you do. So I did that. I got into community college. I got. I got my own apartment a couple months out. I got my own job. I got a job. Like, I started dating the one girl who ended up picking me up from the airport. We started dating. We kind of reconnected afterwards. Things were good. Like, I was living good. I was seeing my psychiatrist. I was going to therapy. I was going to support groups. I was plugged in. I did what I had to do. I was doing it. And then I came up with this genius idea, Amber, that I was some sort of cured, that I got it all figured out. I was. I got it all figured out. And I wanted to start living a bit, you know, I wasn't gonna go extreme like I did before, but I wanted to have a little bit of fun, right? What's life without a little bit of fun? So I stopped taking the meds. I stopped. I mean, this all happened over weeks or months. I stopped going to support groups. Right. Why aren't you going to support groups? Well, I don't need them anymore. And Then it was confrontation, right. People would say, well, you know, that's ridiculous. You do need them. I'd cut them off. I don't want to hear that crap. Stop taking my medication. You know, that I've been on for a year before I just stopped taking it. You know, I mean, there's. If that's something that I wanted to do, I should have went about it the proper way, not just like a. I'm not the psychiatrist and I'm making psychiatrist decisions. Bad idea. That was a bad idea for me. I started hanging out. I started letting other people into my life, right. I start kind of getting back to just letting anything fly. Like, I used to keep a real tight ship, right? Boundaries, respect for yourself, routine. Keep a tight routine. Wake up, make your bed. If it's a. If the la. If it's the only thing you do today, make your dog on bed. I did it every day for a year. And I mean, that you learned in.

That program, Self discipline.

Yeah, in all of those things I learned, I just started talking myself out of. Yeah, that's just for the program. You don't do, like, that's crazy. You don't do that stuff out here.

Yeah. That's how regular people live. Yeah.

Yeah. And it just, you know, looking back in hindsight, it just kind of blows my mind how you do something literally every day for a year and like within six months you can talk yourself out of it, even though it provided your life so much value. Like, I was talking to my one buddy and you know, he does. He does like a working out and stuff all the time. Right. And a lot of people do that, right. And then if they miss time, it's really hard for them to get back in as opposed to just keep going. You know that. And that's where I got stuck is once I. Once I stopped doing the stuff, I couldn't start the engine back up. You know, I didn't have the support. I wasn't in a structured environment. I didn't have the accountability. My folks were, you know, wanting to let me live my life, you know, they were like, well, you know, you're 18 now and, you know, we're like, we're here for you. Of course, like, they're incredible people. We're here for you. But at the same time, like, it's grow or go, baby. I mean, you gotta do it, you know, we can't, baby, anymore. And then I got introduced to pills. You know, I had that. I had that operation of the hernia and I mean, that was an introduction, but I didn't know about, like, underground drugs and pain pills. I didn't know all that. I know I enjoyed it, but I didn't know what. What existed. So I had my own place. I held a poker night, and I had a couple buddies over, and we're getting into the beers and stuff, and I. Every, Every. Every cell in my body said, this is. This is terrible, man. This is terrible. But I had developed that itch again. That itch to belong and that itch to be somebody and to be liked. I just wanted to be like, you know, I didn't necessarily like myself at this point, so I needed that. I need that from other people. And we started drinking the beers. Guy pulled out a pill bottle, and he said, yeah. I said, what's that all about? Why are you taking Advil at the, you know, poker game? Like, come on. Dude says on the bottle, don't take it with alcohol. Like, you should know this. And he's like, no, this is other stuff, man. I said, oh, what is it? He said, oh, well, it's Percocet. I said, oh, what's. You know, what's the point of that, right? I was naive. I knew nothing about drugs or anything. I gave him five bucks. I tried it, and I was. That was how it started, you know, I found an escape for myself that I had been. I had this escape before, but I had to work so daggone hard for it, you know, I had to bust my ass for that. And this just made it so much easier. Five bucks. I mean, five bucks gave me. I mean, it's different. It's different things, but it gave me a similar feeling of 12 months of, like, the straight grind of working on my life, you know, fixes it. Yeah, yeah. And. And I got hooked on them. And then, I mean, just like everybody does, right? It started with the pills. I got into doing cocaine, too. I was drinking. And then it just, you know, down the cycle over the next couple years, I got into doing heroin, and then I got on, I guess, doing heroin for a year. And then I got into doing methadone. And when I was on the methadone program, I couldn't quit drinking. I was drinking all the time, and I was. They were denying me methadone. They were breathalyzing me. And I slowly lost everything. That apartment I got evicted, college I was in, I got. I put on academic probation, and I got kicked out. More money, money down the drain. My folks, you know, helping me out. I lost a car. My folks had just bought Me, a car. It was like 12,000 bucks. Like two months later, gone. Crimes, crimes using the car, gone. At 18 to 18, 19, I got arrested again. That's when I had to plead guilty to the felony. I was either going to do a year in prison or I was going to plead guilty to the felony. Got put on felony probation. The craziest thing is when I was 16 and on probation, they drug tested me. Never did drugs. And one time I couldn't go to, I couldn't go to the bathroom. I mean I, it's very strange setup too. They watch you, you know, at 16 they want like, they watch you. Very, very strange. I mean, I get it, but it's strange. So I couldn't, I couldn't go to the washroom and they made me sign this paper basically saying that I was doing drugs. It was just. The criminal justice system in the United States is a rough one to get involved with, for better or worse. So when you're 16 in North Carolina, you're an adult. I mean, so you're adult probation, you're, you're adult jail. The first time I got arrested at 16, I was in a 10 by 10 cell with a guy, might have been 21 or 22. And he was there for suspected. I don't mean he just had been arrested for, for a murder of his girlfriend in New York City and he was taking a train system down to Florida. And I was in a 10 by 10 cell with this guy and I swore right then and there, I'm changing my life, I'm changing my. I mean the trauma was like, holy smokes. I mean this was wild. And I didn't change my life after that, but I thought I was going to. I wanted to.

Why do you think you didn't? Because you, you meant it when you said that to yourself. I mean, you meant it. So what, what do you think derailed.

That when I was 16?

Yeah, that moment in the jail with the guy that kills girlfriend and you thought this is it.

Yeah. I mean once the, once the, the, the, the fear, I guess of the situation was over, I couldn't connect back to it. Yeah, yeah. I mean that was cool. Like that happened and you know, the next day I went to school and life went on and I, I wasn't really connecting the dots. I was never able to connect the dots. You know, now looking back at me telling this story in my mind, it's going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I can piece it all together. I mean, pretty good and. But at the time I, I Think it all boils down to like, I thought it would just blow over, you know, this whole thing, it's just a fad. I mean, everybody's drinking and partying, we're going to the pubs, we're hitting the college parties, you know, everything's good. Everything was good until it wasn't good. And when it wasn't good, I couldn't stop. And when things weren't good for my friends, they could stop and we didn't see them anymore. Hey, where's Johnny and where's Joe? Well, they just, it got too much for them and they were able to shut it down. I was never able to shut it down. I just found a new Johnny and a new Joe to hang out with.

Wow.

Yeah.

So at one point you're living with your brother, I think you said you're using, you're using. So take us to that moment. You're living with your brother, you're, you're on methadone, which for people who may not know what it is, it's a opioid maintenance medication, which is, it's an opioid but you go to a clinic and you get it and you have to go like every day usually. Tell us, can you tell us a little about that?

Yeah. So towards the end, like I was dating that girl and I was living at my parents place. I, my, I got arrested. My younger brother was getting ready for school one day, the cops came, knock on the door, bang, bang, bang. It was like 7am of course I'm still sleeping because I'm not doing absolutely anything with my life. My younger brother's getting ready for school, my stepdad's there. He's pretty stern with the rules. I mean he's, he's understanding and empathetic, but the rules are the rules. I mean he went to, he has a military school background and stuff. So cops show up, my younger brother sees all this, like I got arrested, taken to jail, bailout. I didn't even consider going back to live at my parents place. I just knew, I saw the look on my stepdad's face, like disappointment. I mean, from head to toe he's disappointed in me, in the situations and, and frankly the, I mean he was upset with it. And I don't blame him. Like, you know, I would, I would have been too long before he was, I would have been at that point they gave me that extra chance after I lost my apartment. Right. Because I lost my apartment, lost my job, lost everything. I didn't have anywhere to go. The town I Lived in was a small suburb of north, you know, of like Raleigh, carry apex area. There's no homeless shelters, there's no like supports, there's no drop ins. It's not a big city. So none of that stuff existed. Then the girlfriend's girlfriend took me into her parents place. That didn't work out. I was not a good person so I had to leave there. So I stayed at my other buddy's place for a bit with his parents. It was so far out of town though. I couldn't really get to this job. I got this job at Little Caesars and stuff. And I couldn't get there because it was like 30 minutes away and I had no wheels moving with my brother. He lived in the more in the city and he had a roommate to live with him. So I lived on my brother's floor and I had nothing at this point. In and out of jobs, you know, drinking, just getting methadone every day, you know, doing a little bit of cocaine. And I was living there. And I was probably there for like. I don't think it was quite a year, but like a lot of this stuff's a blur. I was kind of out of it most of the time. And I. I woke up one day, right? It was the strangest thing. It wasn't even after a bad night. It wasn't a bad night. It wasn't a good night. It wasn't a bad night. We were, you know, we were partying probably. We used to go to the pool. I'd find whoever wanted to hang out and I'd go over to food Line, I'd get a 24 pack of cake. Keystone Light. And we come back to the pool and we just kick it there and we finished the whole box of Keystone Light and hope. I. My hope was to be able to do it again the next day, every day. If I could do that, I would. I was good. And. And other stuff too. On top of it if. If I could too. And I had this sort of. This. This window. This window opened up, this moment of clarity. Strangest thing happened. The spiritual experience. I mean, call it what you like. I had this thought in my mind when I woke up one day. My back's hurting, right? I'm sleeping on the floor. God, he got. He's got Dexter playing on the tv. I think he's already gone to work, right? He's living a normal life. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm gonna. This stuff's gonna end up killing me, man. And be and kind of up to that point, it was kind of like a big party. I had these thoughts, like, this stuff's gonna end up taking me out. And if this stuff doesn't take me out, I might take me out, because I don't know how much longer I can go on with this. And I had this thought, like, call your grandparents. And I didn't talk to him in years. I was probably £100. I didn't want them to see me the way I was, and I didn't really want anybody to see me the way I was. And, you know, like, they're not gonna understand. I mean, they're. They're maybe 70 at this time, you know, And I've already. I've already gotten so much from everybody, you know, I've already let everybody dry resources, you know. I feel like the shame from that is heavy, you know, It's a really heavy thing to carry to where people care so much about you. I mean, my folks Price spent near a hundred thousand dollars on that program, you know, and they're not, you know, millionaires or anything by any stretch. They did extra shifts. They worked hard to. To do it, you know, and it carries shame and guilt when you. When you. When you know that, right, that you just. I just felt like, dude, I just can't figure it out. I want to stop using drugs and drinking beer, but I can't. I couldn't stop. I couldn't. So I reach out to my grandparents, like, I need help. I didn't know what to say. I said, I need help. I'm on methadone, and I'm. This is all going on. And my grandfather's like, you're on methadone. He's like, their houses are blowing up around here from methadone. I said, no, that's methamphetamine. That's different. That's a different thing, Grandpa. And they said, we'll be down there tomorrow. And at this time, they were up in Canada, right? So they drove down 15 hours, like 65, 70 years old. They drive down and they're like, what's the. What are we doing? I'm like, I don't know. They got hooked up with this detox in South Florida, and we ended up. Next day, we. We were on the road again, and we went down there and, yeah, I got off everything. I got off everything. And I didn't have the resources to go to rehab or anything like that. And I wasn't. This program was already a thousand bucks a day, right? So things add up quick. And they had to stay in a motel and drive, you know, expensive. It adds up, right? So, but that was it. That was like my thing. And then when I got back, the cops were looking for me. It's kind of like to wrap up the whole beginning story that we started with. The cops were looking for me. My grandparents. Like, this is crazy madness the way you're living, right? Until my grandparents told me that, I didn't really see anything wrong with the way I was living, which is so sad. Which is so sad when I look back that I'm like, how did I. How didn't I realize how I was living? Like, what the, you know, blank was, was going on? You know. My grandparents said, this is crazy. Like, where's your stuff? I said, stuff? I don't have. I don't have any stuff. Like, I just had some clothes and that was it. I didn't have food in the fridge, maybe some condiments. And that's how I was living. And I thought, like, I thought I was living, you know. They said, why don't you come up with us? Why don't you come to, you know, come back with us? You can stay with us and we'll try to, we can try to figure this out. I said, dude, I mean, I don't know, like, I didn't want to be a burden to them, you know, I didn't want to bring. Because I wasn't sure I could get out of this. I went to the detox and I was sober at the time. You know, they gave me Suboxone for detox and they prescribed me some. No, they didn't prescribe me like Klonopin or something. I went to a walk in clinic because my anxiety through the roof. I mean, I just got the methadone cold turkey, seven days. And I mean, my skin was crawling. I couldn't. I didn't sleep for probably six months. Like a full night's rest for six months. I lost weight. I didn't have to lose. Um, but so they, they told me that and they gave me the opportunity to come with them. They. I said, I don't know, let me decide. They came back the next morning, 6am they kind of popped in. I was like, oh, banging on the door. I'm like, oh, the cops are here. Like, I'm getting ready to jump off the patio. And it was my grandparents and they're like, we're out of here. Last chance. Come with us. I grabbed a little suitcase my brother had. I put literally what I owned, which barely filled up a Suitcase, you know, this big. And. And off we went and I went, I went up there with them and I wasn't on the straight now. I wasn't doing drugs, but I was drinking the beers and things were getting better. I got a job for the first time. I was doing this painting job and I actually really enjoyed it. And I'm like, man, this is like. It wasn't my dream job or anything, but I enjoyed it. I was showing up every day, 6am, I was working overtime, I was working Saturdays. And I started to feel a little bit better. But I went through like detox for like six months to where like my baseline was so far down. I mean I just felt completely off foggy. Yeah, it was, was rough, you know, but they were patient with me. My grandparents were patient. I didn't have to worry about bills. I didn't. I was lucky. I was, I was so lucky to have that opportunity where what the world was kind of lifted off my shoulders in a sense. Obviously I still put pressure on myself to like not be a fraud and to. To be a good person, you know, I didn't have any friends, I didn't have anything. I had a few other relatives that lived up here and stuff. But yeah, I started getting. And then that's when I. I stayed up there for about a year and that's when I went back to visit. And then I got arrested and I went to jail. And then that was another year. And then I came back. And then when I came back and when I was in jail, I set two goals for myself. I want to be addiction counselor. I want to help people and I want to get a German shepherd. And I ended up doing both. So I went back to college. A year after I got back, I went back to college. I graduated for addition addiction counselor. I worked at a treatment center up here. It's called Portage and it's a youth addiction program. So it's a six month residential program for people like 14 to 19, whether they're youth justice children's aid services or they're just want to get some help. And I worked there and I was a case manager and it was great. You know, it was great until it was hard. It was really hard. But yeah, that's what I wanted to do, you know, so that's what I did.

Mr. Ridley, almost like you're now you're. Yeah. Mr. You. You're like in that position.

Yeah, I was like code name Mr. Riddle.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah. And it was good. And I worked there for like five, six Years. And then I quit there and I kind of started my own business. I started my own business and, you know, other stuff and, and I actually worked at a couple other programs too. I worked as a peer support specialist at an outpatient program. I helped launch a program here in Ontario called the Rapid Access Addiction Clinic. So we were staffed by a doctor, a therapist, me as a peer support worker and we ran a, we ran a walk in clinic where anybody could walk in and. Excuse me, you could get services whether you want to quit drinking, you want to get off opiates, you want to go to detox, you want to go to rehab, you want to do whatever we, you just walk in and bang. Well, like, we're gonna help you out right here, right now. Our doctor was incredible. She would meet with people for an hour. I never seen anything like it in my life. One hour free doesn't cost a nickel. You just come in and you're just, you got all those supports. And that was a, that was really cool program to be a part of. I launched that, I helped launch that in two cities. And I also did a lot of other volunteer work. You know, shelter, soup kitchen, everything. You know, my thing about getting sober was. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to get sober for me ultimately, because I'm no good without that. But I got to figure out a way to help people or I'm. I'm screwed.

What is it about the helping other people that keeps you sober?

It just gets me out of my own way, you know, I mean, I get in my own way, I'll talk myself out of stuff. I'll, I'll. The way I think sometimes is not kind, it's not nice. It put myself down and, you know, that stuff I've been working on for years, but it's still there, you know, it's still there. I can't necessarily close the door on everything I've done before here, you know, like, that's still. I believe our body keeps score, you know, Body keeps score of everything, whether I like it or not. And I've worked through a lot of the trauma and a lot of the situations, but there's a lot. Like jail is a traumatic place every day. Every day is, you know, it's a traumatic place to be. It's loud, there's violence, there's, you know, all kinds of stuff. And that took its toll and it was a great thing for me. Like, I'd learned accountability and I learned that I was going to be held accountable. But yeah, I mean, I gotta get out of Myself and just help somebody else, you know, like that. Just. It's. It's. It's fuel for the fire, you know?

What do you think is the difference between. Well, I guess a better way to say it is why does some people get it and some people don't? Why does some people get recovery or get sober and some don't?

Yeah. Amber, the million dollar question. I mean, I can say why I didn't for a long time. You know, I mean, I. I didn't. You know, I didn't really have that level of awareness, I think. Right. I'd like. I kind of mentioned it a little bit, too. I thought this was just a season in my life that was going to just blow over and I would find my way out. I think denial plays a big part in it, too, with some people, too. And, I mean, I think they're not. You know, for me, I had so much underlying stuff. I only touched on a small piece of it. But, you know, drugs and alcohol were never my problem. I was. I was the problem. The way I thought, the way I processed things and. And what had happened, it kind of created this story that I believed about who I was, that I wasn't good enough. And, you know, when you hear that every day, all day for five years, well, whether you are good enough or not, you're not good enough.

Right.

And I never thought I would be. I never thought I would amount to anything.

So I just accepted I'm the bad kid, basically.

Yeah.

That was just.

I was terrified, you know, and even as weird as it sounds, most people want success. They want to succeed. They want to do well. I was terrified because I'd never done it. I didn't know what to expect. Look, if I went in, made a fool myself, or I did this or I did that, acting up, failing grades. I knew exactly what. What response I was going to get from people if I did well, I. I had no idea. I was scared of the unknown. And that was another big thing that held me back, because what if I try to go for it and it doesn't work out? You know what I mean? What if I try to get sober? What if I try to, like, live a better life? It doesn't work out. And everybody's just laughing, saying, like, look, yeah, we told you it wouldn't work out. Like, you know what I mean? And people weren't even saying that stuff. Nobody even said that I made this stuff up in my own between my ears, you know, about that. People were thinking to me, nobody was spending time Thinking about me. You know what I mean? People weren't. People don't. And we tell ourselves, like. And so. And so's thinking about us or. Or judging us this certain way. And it's like, you know, people are so busy with their own stuff, like they ain't thinking about me or worried about what I'm doing, so. Yeah, but I mean, I think it's. It's. Yeah, there's a lot of different things, but I mean, I think for getting sober, you. You got to get out of your own way. You got to. You know, I get messages every day, all day and a half for years. And I work with people, and some of the people who I thought Amber were. Were getting it, you know, I went to their funeral. I've went to more funerals between. Of people between 14, 18 than I have between 60 and 100. I went to 15 funerals in one year of people I knew. And I worked with. I worked with this one fella, and it's the most devastating story in the world. And he actually died in town here on the McDonald's toilet when he was. The day before he was supposed to come back to the program, you know, so Pete in a. In. I thought this fella had it, you know, I felt like he had it. He had it. He worked hard. He worked hard, day in and day out for six months. And it, you know, it was in for that result. It was like. It was. It was wild, you know?

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've been doing this for a long time myself. And I say I couldn't tell you any more than just pick it random in the end, who's gonna get it? I can tell you. Are we headed that way or not right now? Pretty accurately, you know, are we. Are we on the right or the wrong right now? But in the big picture end, it's hard to say, you know, it's hard to say. The ones you think got it sometimes don't. Ones you think never will get it sometimes do. I'm sure your family had moments where they thought, he's never gonna. He's never gonna figure this out.

I still don't know if I'm gonna figure it out, Andrew. And that's the beauty of it, you know, I mean, in. You know, I think too, like, just being honest with yourself and with others, you know, I mean, that's a huge part of what I got to do, you know, and sometimes the honesty is not what people want to hear. Right? Like, it's not always that things are going well, like, I'm struggling too, at times, you know, and it's not like, hey, just because I got sober, like, everything's just gravy. Like, no, it's not all gravy, and I'm not gonna try to trick myself that it's all gravy. But, I mean, my life completely changed. I mean, since then, too. I bought a house, I. I started a business. I have three kids, married. You know what I mean? And. And for most people, that's probably gonna be part of life, right? Like, most people are probably gonna do that. Well, for a guy like me, that was never in the cards. Never, ever did I ever think about doing anything like that. Like, that. That was crazy. So.

Where do you want to go next? What do you want to happen from this point?

Good. Good question. That might have. Might be the most loaded one you've asked. I mean, today I'm just focused on being a father. You know, being a good father is. Is important. The most. One of the most important things I think in my life, you know? You know, I also got my podcast show, too. I mean, I'm trying to build that Sober Motivation podcast, and I interview guests and people share their stories, and, you know, I really like to see that grow, just so people can kind of have something on demand anytime, any place, you can have some hope. So that's. Yeah, that's another thing. But I mean business, too. I'm. I'm working on a couple different businesses. You know, I'm. You know, overall, I'm just a risk taker, you know, I'm just trying to take risks. I'm just trying to make a difference. I'm trying to have an impact. I. I took from the world for. For many years, you know, Now I'm just, how do I give back? How do I make a difference? You know? And I can't, like, you know, when it comes down to it, I. I can't change people's lives, you know, that's not a thing. But I'm hoping that maybe people can just draw some strength from some of the stuff I do.

Tell us. Tell us where to find you, where to listen. How can we listen to your podcast? Tell us how to find you.

I'm everywhere, Amber. If you got a screen, you can find me somewhere. I would say my favorite place to hang out is probably Instagram, so you can find me there on Sober Motivation on Facebook. It's. Sober is cool. And then the podcast is called Sober Motivation Sharing Sobriety Stories. So you can jump on there and I interview People, celebrities to everyday Joes. I've had Brad Garrett from Everybody Loves Raymond. And what I figured out when interviewing Brad Garrett, looking up his information, he's done almost every Disney character, voice, I mean, maybe 40 plus ratatouille and all. And I'm like, I never even knew that. And I had Jake the Snake on there. And then I have just everyday folks who want to share their story. And it's so inspiring about what it was like for them growing up and then kind of what the mess was like and then how they get and stay sober. And I just find it, like, so empowering to see, to hear these stories from people and that they're willing to share to help other people. And, you know, since we, we launched recently too, we've had over 250,000 downloads just in four months. And it's so much fun. Yesterday I recorded three episodes and, like, it was probably my best day I've had in like two weeks.

Listening to so many stories. Is there anything you've learned about addiction, about recovery, about any of it just from your own story? And then just listening to so many stories, what would you want, what would you want other people to know?

I heard one thing that just hit home with me. It doesn't matter if you come from Yale or jail. It affects everybody, you know, And I think, I think that that just rings true when you hear people's stories. A lot of people have really good childhoods. Some people have really not so good childhoods. And some people have loads of cash, and some people have no cash. And different backgrounds of all sorts can be, you know, impacted by this. And it really puts it in perspective. And I mean, I think the other thing is how resilient sober people are. Like, you figure when I was out there doing that stuff, you know, it was pure chaos. I mean, I had to try to keep things together. And if you can just find a way to use your skills that you've been able to maintain your addiction with, I'm telling you, some of the biggest companies in this world and some of the biggest athletes you watch on TV and the most famous celebrities and the everyday people that show up to your, your office and their, their productivity is through the roof they're on every day. They switch over that drive to use and escape life, to build a better life, you become unstoppable, like, nothing can stop you.

I believe that wholeheartedly. I did a video recently called Addiction is really just a Misdirected Superpower. And I believe that, yeah, when you hear people stories and you've seen people come on the other side of it and you see who they are without that. I mean, you can't help but know.

That and believe it. Yeah. So true. Yeah.

All my favorite people in recovery, you have to build muscles. I mean, like, when you listen to Brad, you can listen to, you know, he's talking about, you know, how does he stay sober. He doesn't talk about drugs and alcohol. He talks about trying to be a better person, trying to be a person that he is proud of, trying to be a good dad, trying to help other people. Because that's crazy as it sounds, that's how you. That's how you stay sober. Because when you. When you're a person you don't like and you're filled with secrets and shame and guilt and self pity, you just want to numb that away. And that's when the substances come.

Yeah, nail on the head right there. I mean, you've been doing this long enough, so, you know. Yeah, that. That's how you do it. You know, I mean, you have to get sober. That initial step is like, you have to cut out the substances because you can't think straight without it because you're always going to be wanting more and more and more, and it's never going to be enough. So that is definitely the first step. But the good news is that step is this. One decision right now, in this moment. I'm done. That's it. And you're done. You're. You're on to step two. Step two is how you're going to get out of your own way to get some help. You're gonna call. You're gonna. You're gonna call me and say, brad, I need some help. I'm gonna say, you need to get the support group. I need you to surround yourself with people who understand what you're going through. And I need you to move your feet right now while you're doing it. And what happens at that point, Amber, is a lot of people don't move when they need to move. They wait two or three days. The hangover is done. The consequences from the last night of drinking have kind of subsided. They got into jail from the. From the impaired driving. And you feel a bit better. And guess what? I just want to have one baby. I just want.

I think that's it. Because even when you listen to your story, you know, there were more. There were multiple moments of clarity. And I think that's the way it is for. For most of us, we have these moments of clarity. But if you don't put action in at that moment, it's like a little flame, and you have to tend to it, and if you don't, it goes away.

Yeah.

And it's so important when you have that moment to take action.

Yeah.

I love it. It's so inspiring. I feel like just the courage it took to. The willingness and the courage it took to decide, I'm going to get sober, I'm going to do it in jail, I don't care. You know, I'm just going to do what I need to do. You know, you just dug in, and no matter what it threw at you, you just kept doing the right thing and going in the right direction, and it's worked for you.

Yeah. And there were some days where I didn't know it was gonna work out, but I just said, like, I used to tell myself this, I'll drink tomorrow. I'll use drugs tomorrow. Tomorrow, you know, that's not gonna work for everybody. And, like, it might be bad advice. I don't know. It worked for me, though, because tomorrow, what I found out is tomorrow was a good. Was a good day. And I didn't want to at that point, you know, I just had to make it through those rough times, those rough days, those rough 20 minutes. I had to just get through those. That's what I found out is it was 20 minutes, you know, four or five times a day. I was. I didn't have to get. I didn't have to stay, get through the whole day. I just had to get through 20 minutes every two hours. That's it, Brad, 20 minutes. You got this. And I was just pumped up, you know, and then here we are.

You guys go listen to Brad's podcast. I found you on Facebook. And the thing that took notice was the name of the Facebook, which is so Bruce cool, because I say that all the time. Anyone's in recovery, it's the cool, trendy thing to be, Trust me. And I love that, you know, your message was that. And that's what. That's what sort of drew me to you, is just listening to that, because I'm a. I'm a big believer in that. Thank you so much for coming. You guys go check out Brad, listen to on his podcast, find him on Facebook, find him on Instagram. He's got a lot to share. And I think you told me earlier that you kind of have a secret thing that you wish someday you could be a radio, like a talk radio morning host. Am I saying it right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would. I would love to host the morning show, like a recovery morning show to where people called in and we just kind of chopped it up and had some fun. And, you know, we are also serious there, too. But somebody that. Something that people could listen to that are in recovery or want to get into recovery when they drive into work in the morning, get them fired up for the day. I. I think that would be. You know, I don't know if I'm the right guy for it. I'll be honest. I would love to do that and just get people's thoughts on current events and. Yeah, all the. A radio show of some sort that I could somehow get to people's phones or. I don't know if it's gonna work to the radio, because the radio station. Every place has different. You know, you already have stations. Right. So we needed something on the phone that people could plug into. Yeah, that's it.

So if you're. If you're listening and you know somebody or you know something about that, reach out to Brad. I think he is the right person. You're such a good storyteller. I just sat here and listen. I was feeling kind of guilty, like, Amber, you're not even helping. You're just. You're just sitting here.

You did great.

You're amazing storyteller. And it's just. It really is inspiring to hear him. And we really do appreciate it.

Yeah, and I appreciate you and everything you're doing. It's incredible. And thank you for even thinking about me. I'm so grateful for the opportunity.

All right, everybody, we will see you next Thursday. We're live one Thursday Eastern every week. See you then.