The Most Important Dos and Don'ts Of Helping A Drug Addict or Alcoholic

I know that you probably think that when you go to counseling school that they teach you how to help people get off drugs and alcohol, but if you're thinking that you'd be dead wrong, they don't teach you anything about that in counseling school. And another biggie for me personally, why it's hard for me is I'm also not in recovery. Yes, you heard me right. I am not in recovery. So. So not only did I not learn how to help people get off drugs and alcohol in counseling school, and I'm also not in recovery myself. Another little secret here is I don't really even know much about drugs and alcohol. If you were having a Christmas party for work, you couldn't send me to the ABC store and tell me to get anything because I don't know a thing about it. So how is it that knowing nothing from school, knowing nothing from my personal life, I'm still able to pretty effectively, for the most part, help people get off of drugs and alcohol? Well, I'm going to share those secrets with you. And those secrets have been pretty hard. Lessons learned along the way. Here's the thing. When I was brand new, I call it when I was like a new baby counselor, I actually graduated counseling school, I think in 03 or 04. And before that I had been a school teacher. I taught high school for like three years. Man, that was horrible. So anything was better than that. That was really hard. But while I was teaching, I was going to graduate school, went to Clemson, and then got out, obviously. And I didn't choose to be an addiction counselor. It just sort of happened to me. I at first was going to be a teacher. I don't even know what I was thinking there. And then I thought, well, I guess I'll be like a counselor, like a school counselor. But I couldn't really afford to take off for a whole year to intern as a school counselor and not work at all because I was on my own supporting myself and been on my own support myself since a teenager. So there was no, like, safety net there for me. So at the last minute, I actually changed my major in graduate school to community counseling, which is like mental health counseling. And I just happened to by accident to wind up in this internship. And it was for drug and alcohol. It was an intensive outpatient for drug and alcohol treatment of adults. That was like my first job in the, in the counseling world. And luckily I was a brand new intern. So mostly I just got to watch, which was good because secretly, I know nothing. You know, when you know Nothing. And then you're trying to act like you know something, you're trying to pretend like it, but everyone can see right through you. Yeah, that was me for sure. So I'm a new counselor. I know nothing from my personal life. I know nothing from school, and I still have to figure out how to go about helping people. Oh, let me add this, too. At this point, when I was a new counselor, I didn't even know anybody who had stopped using drugs, alcohol. Now, let me clarify. I knew a lot of people who did drugs and alcohol. Like, I come from an addicted family. Everyone in my family is addicted. Like, it's all over the place. All my grandparents, aunts, ex. Because it's just a mess. Okay? So I seen a lot of addiction, but I never even heard of people coming off drugs. I don't. I don't even know if I ever even heard the word recovery before. Like, that's how naive I was. Because I grew up, like, in the trailer park in Tennessee, and people didn't even go to counselors. I don't even know how I decided to be a counselor. To be honest. Like, it was random. Thought, that's just me. I kind of impulsively decide something. And when you do that and you're like me, you end up in situations where you're in way over your head pretty frequently, and you just have to sort of sink or swim. And I learned all the lessons sink or swim the hard way. Now, going into this field, one of the first jobs I had after being an intern, like, a real job, was they wanted me to run this intensive outpatient program for teenagers addicted to drugs. That is the deep end, people. That's the deep end in the ocean, and a tidal wave is coming at you. Okay? And they did that because I'd had the internship in the drug and alcohol program and because I had taught high school before. So they're like, oh, she'll be great. She can handle this. And this was a program that wasn't even developed. So I had to figure it out, like, develop the program and run the program all by myself. And like I said, I didn't know nothing. Well, let me add this in just so you really understand how. No, nothing that I really was and still am to some degree. I was never even the cool kid. I was never even like these kids. Even when I was a teenager, I didn't do the things that these kids did. I was sort of like that good kid. I had friends. I've been to parties. I've been around stuff. But I was sort of always the good kid that was like focused and I worked a lot because I had to support myself. So I really didn't have time for all that. So I'm just in this like upside down world is what I'm gonna call it. But to be honest with you, all of that knowing nothing was actually probably best thing ever. Because I didn't know nothing, didn't know anything. See, can't even talk. I didn't have a lot of preconceived notions and judgments about what needed to happen. And I didn't have a whole lot of confidence. And because of those things, I went into the situation of helping people, adults and kids, pretty open minded. And I really think that has been my blessing all along the way is open mindedness. Because I think if I had known too much, I would have missed a lot and I would have not learned the things, the secrets that I now know. Most people that do addiction counseling, they are in the field because they're like in recovery, or maybe they're not in recovery, but they've been taught through some kind of recovery program. And a lot of people can be very, in the addiction recovery world, very, very like single minded about how recovery is supposed to happen. Most people that are in the whole addiction recovery world, they have these like hardcore ideas about this is the only way it happens. It has to go this way. Like you have to work 12 steps or you have to go to treatment or Suboxone is the only way. They have these hardcore ideas about. And in their mind there's only one pathway. Well, luckily I didn't even know enough to know the pathways. All I had was just myself in a room full of about eight to 15 teenagers every Monday, Wednesday and Friday evening. And that is how I figured this whole thing out. Because I didn't know anything else. All I did is I just went in and I just listened to these kids and I didn't know what to tell them. And I didn't know how to get on their case and tell them to act better. So I didn't. And luckily that was the thing that worked. My whole thing in my very first sort of mission, teaching those. Not teaching, but counseling, I guess if you would call it those teenagers was I decided that the motto was we like you more than they like you. And what that means is, is I wanted those kids in the group to feel like they were more liked in that group by me and the other kids in the group than they were liked by their using friends. Because I at least knew Enough to know that a lot of times when young people are using drugs, it's about the social needs more than it is about the drugs. And so that was my focus. My focus was on helping them feel more comfortable in that setting than they felt in the other setting. It was not making them do 12 step. It was not telling them how they were being bad human beings and like terrorizing their parents, which they definitely were terrorizing their parents. It definitely was not showing them like videos and film trips about black lungs and all the bad things that are going to happen to your body. And I'm so glad that I didn't choose that path. Because you know what? I know now, that doesn't work. So let's get into the do's and don'ts, these hard learned do's and don'ts that I've learned along the way. Don't assume that every person that has an addiction is the same. And don't assume that, that every person. There's only one way out. One of the things I've learned along the way is that every single person is very different. Now addiction is almost the same. Like I can literally listen to a family member talk to me for about 10 minutes, telling me what's going on with their loved one. And I will know exactly what's going to happen next in the addiction because it's that predict. But knowing that doesn't necessarily mean that I know how to help that person unless I really get to know that person. I could have six family consultations in one day where I'm talking to family members and they're asking me what to do. And I will have told every single one of them probably something pretty different than the other by the end of the day. And because I do that based on the person's personality, what their strengths and weaknesses are, what I know is going to make them upset, what's going to motivate or not motivate them. And all those things are very, very individual. And you can't get to that with your eyes closed. And you can't get to that if you have a whole lot of judgment and preconceived notions about what should happen and what they're doing right or wrong. You have to listen to the person. You have to really sort of try to understand them. So that goes in the do category. Do try to understand the person as an individual. Yes, you have to understand addiction. But honestly, it's kind of all the same. Like I said, the story of addiction is the same. The only difference between one Drug and another drug or one addiction. Another addiction is just how fast it takes you to hell and back. Basically I say it's all a train to the bad place. Some just takes you there faster than others. Other than that, addiction is addiction, which is a good thing because it means you don't have to know a whole lot about drugs and alcohol. So lucky for me, you don't have to know a whole lot about that. You do have to know how to help people. And the step number one for doing that is trying to understand them as a person. Now the next don't I have for you is don't try to motivate them to stop using drugs. I know that sounds crazy and I know I have a lot of videos on here where I talk to you about how to motivate someone to get better. I even have a whole playlist about that. But what I mean when I'm saying that to you is don't use your motivations. You've got to look at that person and you have to look at them very open mindedly and you have to find what they care about. You have to find what their motivation for change is. And I know you're probably thinking, well, they say they like doing whatever they're doing and they're never going to quit. Well, guess what? Every person I've ever seen told me that. So don't, don't even listen to that, that that'll mean nothing. Everyone says that at some point, everyone thinks at some point, it's not even that, they don't believe it. But I promise you there is something inside of them that's unhappy about something related to the addiction, about the problems that it's causing, about the effects of whatever the addiction is. And if you can listen non judgmentally long enough, they'll tell that to you. But you have to be listening for it. And when you find that, then you can use that little piece to motivate them. But it has to come from within them. You know how people always say like they have to want to get better. That's kind of a tricky phrase because people don't really want to quit using drugs and alcohol, but they do want something. And if you can find what that something is and you can nurture that something, I call it sort of like I always say it's like a string on a sweater and you start pulling it and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Once you find that you can work with that little seed, like with young people, very often it is, I won't live my parents anymore. Now if that's what I got to work with, that's what I got to work with. And so I will start there with, okay, well you want to be out your parents house, like how much money you think that's going to cost? We'll come up with a budget. Well, how much money you spend on weed currently? Oh, well, we need to cut that money back, don't we? Because you need to move the heck out of your house because it's making you crazy living there. Now the parent might think this kid doesn't need to do drugs because it's bad for their health, because they're not going to be able to get a job that they want because they won't be able to pass a drug screen because it's going to fry their brain because it's going to make them do bad in school. But those are all the parent motivations for stopping. You've got to find what's inside the person. And a lot of times when you hear that thing, you're going to be thinking, well, that's stupid or that's really small, that's not really big enough to make somebody want to stop. But usually once you find one little piece of it, like I said, it's like a string on a sweater and you start looking at it and exploring it with the person and there's more and there's more and there's more. And so when they start giving that to you, it's very important to sort of be cool with it. Don't jump the gun, don't press too hard. You have to play it cool and you have to ask questions and you have to nurture that piece to help it grow into more and more and more motivation. So there are definitely ways to help motivate someone to get clean sober. But you can't do it from your own personal ways. You have to find what works for them. Here goes another. Don't, don't beat the person up when they make a mistake. They're going to make a lot of mistakes. And every time that you beat the person up, you're literally sending covert and overt messages to the person that you can't do this and you're never going to beat this. In fact, sometimes, and I get it, we get so upset we even say things, you're never gonna be this. You always promise this, you always say that and you're not gonna be this. Like, I want you to stop thinking about what's happening when you do that. You're literally telling them that they are never going to beat it. And guess what? They're gonna believe that because you're subliminally sending that message to them over and over and over again. So you have to stop saying that. Here's another one for you. Don't get mad at them, or don't sort of shut down any of their ideas about how to get sober that you think aren't going to work. Most of the time, when I get into clients, once we even get them to any motivation, because sometimes we're starting from a, I don't care. I like doing what I'm doing. I don't have a problem, I'm gonna keep doing it. If I have to start there, that's where I have to start. And I found that motivation. But once you find it and they start trying to do little things, nine times out of 10, what they're gonna want to try, I already know in my head is not going to work at all. Like, I already know it. But it's very important to let people try their way. And not only that, but you're gonna have to let them try their way a few times. In fact, they're probably gonna want to try the same tactic a few times because they're gonna think, oh, I just messed it up that one time, but I'm gonna do it different this time. You gotta let people go through that a few times. And while they're going through that, as difficult as it is, you have to sort of validate that, that they're really trying. And you have to validate that they keep trying even though something didn't work. And you have to send those little messages that says, you're pretty close, you're almost there, you're almost gonna get it. I can remember there's a guy I've been working with lately, and every week when we have a session, he's like a couple, two or three days sober, but he's just coming off of like a, a, a bad relapse or whatever. Now it be easy for me to get frustrated with him. But I'm saying. But one of the things I'll say is, I'll say, because he's actually trying to get sober. So I'll say, well, have you had more drinking days or sober days? And he said, well, probably a few more not drinking days and drinking days. I'm like, we're getting there then, right? Because when I met you, you drinking every day all day. So don't expect that they're going to get it right the first time. Don't expect that they're gonna. Everything they're gonna try is if you can tolerate being sort of their cheerleader person the best that you can. I understand it's different when you're the family member. That's why you're like, I remember. That's why we pay you. Because I can't do this with them. I get that. But the best that you can, if you can be their cheerleader and. And cheer them on, they'll keep trying until they do figure it out for themselves. Don't take it personal when they don't succeed. If I took it personal every time a client of mine didn't succeed, I would have quit this job a long time ago. I don't know if you guys know this, but the average sort of lifespan, or workspan, if you will, for an addiction counselor is five years. Now, I don't know if you guys know how much school it takes to go to be a addiction counselor. That's more than five years. So it takes more than five years to become an addiction counselor, but most are in the field for five years or less. And the reason for that is. I mean, it's hard work, but. But the real reason for that is because there's a burnout rate. And that's because it's easy to start measuring your worth by whether or not people are getting better. And when you do that, you. You get aggravated with people, and when you get aggravated with people, they really don't get better. But if you can sort of hang with them through those ups and downs, if you'll hang most of the time, they will come out of the other side. Most always, they come out the other side eventually. But you have to be calm about it in order to be calm about it. You cannot take it personal because it's when you take it personal that you're going to make a mistake, that you're going to get angry, that you're going to take all the amber techniques and throw them straight out the window. And so when you just realize that that's all part of the process and that we are coming along, you can kind of hold your steady a bit better when you don't take it personally. Like, if you're telling yourself, like, if you loved me, you wouldn't drink, you're gonna be mad when they drink. If you're telling yourself that they're never going to get better, you're going to be very, very upset if they have a little lapse, because you're going to think it's the End of the world. So a lot of this stuff is about keeping your own head on straight. I know that it's different being a family member. I told you, I grew up in a family full of addiction. My mama was addicted. All my grandparents were addicted. My aunts, uncles were addicted. I mean, it's. It's pretty much everywhere. I don't talk about it a lot on here because. Because it's my family and I don't want to share all of their business all over the. The public Internet, because I don't feel like that's right. But just trust me when I say I've grown up in it, I've lived with it, I know what it's like to live with it. My mom died of methamphetamine use when I was like in my early or maybe mid-20s or something like that. So been there, done that. But you can't take it personal. And you, in order to not take it personally, you may have to get a little distance from it. You may have to back up from it a little bit so that you can pull these techniques off. Right? If you're wondering why I'm looking down here, it's because I got my little notes down here. One thing that you can do that always helps when you don't know anything else to do. I want you to use what I call reflective listening techniques. And I have a video on reflective listening. And I'll like put it up here at the end for you to take a look at that, to really, really teach it to you. But all it is is it's just active listening. It's how do you listen to someone in a way that they actually know for sure that you're listening, that you're paying attention. You don't have to have all the right answers. Anytime I'm stuck, even after all these years, I just do reflective listening. When I don't know what to say next, I just do reflective listening. When I've messed it up and I can tell by looking at the person that I've done stepped on the wrong button, I back up and go to reflective listening. It's like a core, basic skill that always helps because if nothing else, just letting them talk, they will figure it out themselves. So I feel like the reason I tell you guys all this stuff is because I feel like if you can take the pressure off of yourself to know everything about it, to have all the right answers, it's taking that pressure off yourself that's actually going to let you do a better job at being Supportive and helping someone through the problem. All right, we're getting ready to get to the part that we have been doing on our live videos where I'm going to invite someone to come on here live with me. We can have a discussion about it, what I'd like to do, if possible. And maybe no one wants to do that, and that's okay, because every week when y', all somebody pops on here, I'm kind of surprised. So I would love it if someone would want to come on here with me today and talk about something in their in your life that you'd like to change, that you're having trouble with, that you've had some ups and downs with. Maybe it's a problem and you've done good with it, and then you've done bad with it, you've done good with it, you don't have it. It can be related to addiction or not related, tradition, any kind of problem works. But this is public. It is on YouTube and actually on Facebook, too, right now. So I don't want you to talk about anything that you're uncomfortable with. But if there's anyone out there who wants to join me and talk about anything in your life that you want to change, we can talk through this process together. And I think we can probably do a little learning along the way if you. If you do want to do that. The way I'm going to do that to pick someone is if you will put in the chat a number between 1 and 100. I will use the random number picker and we will pick someone. So go ahead and get your numbers in there if there's anybody that wants to. And in the meantime, I'm going to take some questions and comments from you. Now. Today we talked a lot about the do's and don'ts, and we've talked about getting your head on straight because really that is the most important thing. Yes, there are some specific things you can say and there are specific things you can do, but you cannot do them without this. This is foundation. If you don't have your head on straight, you're not going to be able to do the little techniques that make the little differences. Now, if you want to learn the like step by step for how to get someone out of denial and so clean and so recovery, then you want to check out our invisible intervention online course, because that has it mapped out for you step by step. But everything I'm telling you now really needs to be in place if you want to be successful at using those steps. I have Put in the description a link if you want to learn more about the invisible intervention so you can actually get the what do I do on day one, what do I do on day two, day three, day four, how do I say that? How do I move them along? But a lot of it is surrounding this mindset shift that you have to have, have. All right, we're getting some numbers up there. I'm going to give you another minute or two to put some numbers and we'll take some questions and comments. In the meantime, let's see here. Hey Amy, Rachel. Rachel From Australia says 2am there. Oh my gosh, go to bed Rachel. Hey David and Catherine. Andrew's here, Steven's here. I'm grateful for you Steven. Thank you for the nice comment. Amy says listening is so important, it really is. And honestly it's nice to have that tool in your back pocket because she don't know what to say and you don't know what to do. And this always works. People like to be listened to. It feels good. And so if you can just do that, you're always going to be headed in the right direction. In fact, there's a whole counseling theory that's all you do, that's it, you reflective, listen and that is it. And then the whole thing is people figured out for themselves. So if you can do that one thing, you could be a counselor because some people that is the only thing that they do. Now I'm more bossy and halsey than most and so I will jump in there and give a piece of advice but it has to be well timed advice and I never do it before. I think someone really wants that piece of advice or can hear that from me. So advice can come in there but it has to be well timed otherwise it's going to take you backwards. David says what he said a spirit of arrogance of approaching the individual helps me to listen better. What does that mean? Dave? I'm a little confused. A spirit of arrogance of approaching the individual not having a sphere of arrogance, Is that what you're saying? I'm a little confused. I could be reading that wrong. Catherine says my son's 33 year old years old, lost job in apartment due to drugs, currently in a shelter out of state. Definitely acting unhappy. Finally speaking about change, contemplative change stage question. That's right Catherine, you've been listening to my videos. You're getting a plus and gold stars right here. Contemplative stage. When you start hearing people talk about wanting to change now, they may not say I want to quit drugs and alcohol forever. I'm never going to do it again. They're probably not gonna say that. But when they start saying, man, I really wish this, or man, I really need to cut back, that anything like that is what we call change talk. And Catherine is right. The technical term for that is contemplative stage of change. And that's another do and don't do pay attention to where they're at in their stages of change, and do adjust your responses to them based on where they're at in their stages of change. Because Catherine is saying her son is. Is saying little change talk. And. And when someone's saying little change talk, that's when you can throw in little pieces of advice if it's wanted and welcome. But do be open to his idea about what changes to make, even if you don't think that's going to be the whole story. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to, like, fix everything for them. That doesn't mean you have to pay for everything for them. It just means be open to their ideas about maybe what might help. Because people kind of deep down inside usually know their own answers, and you only slow them down by throwing yours in there. Let's see here. Alexis says, I have a question. Is the invisible intervention something I can practice with my husband? Even though we are physically separated, although still in constant contact, we text daily and free and speak daily. That's a very good question, Alexis. I think the invisible intervention works best if you live with the person, but if you're communicating with the person that much, it still works. Like, the invisible intervention techniques is what I do, and I don't live with them. Okay. But I have regular contact with them and I have a relationship with them. So it's not going to work if your loved one doesn't live with you and they're not talking to you and they've got you blocked and you don't even know where they're at. There's. Because it's built on relationship, and if you don't have a relationship there right now, then it's not gonna work. But it could work for you when you're in communication fact, it might work for you better because sometimes when it's in your house, it's so frustrating to watch those ups and down. It's harder to keep your calm. So having the good communication, but a little physical distance actually might be the perfect combo. So you might be in the perfect setup. Catherine says, I'm gonna say this out loud because I know you're not only Catherine. I know. So tired of nurturing and listening. Listening. Speak kindly and positively. When I want to scream, I hear you. I will say this. The more you can nurture that relationship and speak kindly and positively someone, the more of their better side that they'll show you. And it becomes easier and easier when you first start doing it as a family member. It's not easy because you're mad, you're resentful, you're sick of it. You know, you've let them cross your boundaries. You've gotten yourself in a bad place with it. So it's really hard. But. But the longer you do it, usually the better they'll be back. And then it becomes more and more and more natural. Let's see here. Teresa says, do you think Samsha will get my loved one in a good rehab free? A judge won't let him out of jail. It's been 25 days. SAMSA is substance abuse, mental health. It's like a national organization that. That has to do with drug and alcohol treatment, drug and alcohol research and that kind of thing. And I'm not sure if they. If one of the things that they do is specifically find rehabs. I'm not 100 sure. It's not usually. It's not a place that is a rehab. It's more of a. An organization that does research and disseminates information. So they might could give you some options. But they. They're not a rehab. They don't run a rehab that. At least not that I know of. Hey, Sandy, you're awesome too. Thank you for the nice comment. Being on the receiving end of family addiction makes you qualified and bona fide, technically or in recovery, just from the other side of the coin. Thank you, David. That's very nice. I think being on the family and does help me in some ways. It helps me understand what it's like to live with it. It helps me understand the reality of what goes on in the situation. But it doesn't necessarily help me understand how to help someone because just because I've seen it, I've been there, and I get it, doesn't mean I know how to help someone get out of it. But I'll take it anyway. I'll take anything that I can get. Thank you, David. All right, we do have some numbers up here. So we're going to do our number picker. All right. It's on zero. We're going to shake it supposedly. That's how it works. Shake our number. All right. Here we go 32. So let's see who's closest to 32. I see 88, 21, 25. All right, so does that mean 25? I think you. Am I right, you guys? 25 is closest. Now it just says Facebook user, which says. It doesn't say your name up there for me. So just so you know, if you come here, your face is going to be on here. You'll be public. All you need to do this is decent Internet and like, some light so that we can see you. I'm going to put the link up here, and all you have to do is click the link. And this is. I don't know your name, but I know your Facebook user and I know you are number 25 for you. We're going to put that up here and we'll wait for just a second as you join us. And in the meantime, while we wait, Diane says it's hard not to take things personally when they are wasted and say unkind things. That is right now, what I'm saying is don't take the fact that they're using personally against you. Now somebody's saying nasty things to you, that's a little personal, isn't it? You can be unhappy about the things they're saying to you. And if I were you, I would look at boundaries and how do I not be around a person when they're in that state so I don't have to hear those nasty things. What I'm saying to you is not that they should be able to say anything they want to you and you should be fine with it. I'm saying the fact that, like, let's say they haven't drank in four weeks and then they do drink, and then they. They do drink, and then they say the unkind things or whatever. The fact that they drank wasn't personal against you. It's usually just them either struggling with something going on in their life or them trying to think they're going to drink. It's going to be different this time, but it's usually not personal against you. But I hear what you're saying about saying unnasty things. You don't. That doesn't mean you have to listen to them or put up with it, even. All right, give you just a second to join us up here. I'll post the link up here one more time. And if we don't have someone up here, then we're going to go with our next closest user, which is Willow House. David says spirit of arrogance means meaning each individual has Their own addiction story. Yes. And I need to stay curious and ignorant of their story. I got you. I was reading that wrong. I knew I was reading that wrong because it wasn't making sense to me. That's right. Everybody has their own thing. And find, just like David is saying to you, find something that you can relate to them. Because you may not have an addiction, drugs or alcohol, but I guarantee you have problem in your life that you've made the same mistake over and over and over again. And you can relate to not wanting to make a big change or to be an ambivalent about something or to making the same mistake. Because I know you can. Because I have. I can think of a bunch of them just like that. All right, Willow House, if you want to click the link, I don't think our other person is coming. Let's see, I'm. Put it up here one more time. All right, Willow House, you are the next closest one in number. So if you want to click the link, you'll be up here and you'll join us. And remember, we're looking for somebody who maybe wants to talk about something in their life that they want to change. It can be addiction related or relationship related or job related or any, any, anything you want. Because we're looking at the process of change and how to talk through that is the reason. Hey, Michelle. Susan says keeping a kind frame of mind is my challenge. Stuck in a rotation of drunk, high, blackout, pass out and bummed out. My husband is interested in communication. I hear what you're saying, Susan. And so where you want to start is not trying to communicate about the addiction. You want to start by just communicating about anything and making it any kind of like positive interaction. So you just want to set the stage of communicating with you about anything is going to be. Going to be nice and pleasurable. And then the more you can do that, the. The deeper they'll usually go eventually. So. All right, Willow House. It looks like Willow House is a bunch of email. Hello. Hi. I think we'll need at least one person. Is there one spokesperson in here that will talk to me? You've been nominated. Chris.

Hi, how are you?

I'm good. How are you? Are you guys like a recovery house or sober living?

Yes, we are.

Well, I'm glad to have you guys here.

All right, I got a question for you.

Yeah.

Dealing with emptiness or loneliness. I moved past with my family that I used to have, which is no longer. So I'm looking for information to try to move past this.

What have you Tried so far. What's worked and what's not worked.

I'm not too sure, really. I mean, I'm in the little house now. I'm trying to deal with my own emotions. And it's just hard to accept.

Is what you're saying is that because of whatever's gone on with an addiction, you've burned bridges or your family's disconnected from you. Am I understanding that right? Okay. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Just so I kind of really get, like.

I was with a girlfriend of mine. I've been broken off with her. She was using. I was trying to get help for both of us, but she didn't want to go the route that I was, so. And we had two little kids involved. And I'm having a hard time dealing with the emotions that I have with thinking that the children think that I walked out on them.

Oh, that makes sense. That was. It was pretty brave of you, I have to say, to sort of make that decision, because I see that kind of thing all the time where it's like you and maybe like a spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, something like that, and it's sort of like, let's do it together. Chances that two people will make it at the same time, not that great. And so for you to keep going, that's. I. I got mad respect for you. So not only are you dealing with that, but you also have, like. You're trying to be in recovery, but you also have like some heartbreak going on.

Very much.

Okay. How fresh and recent is the. The breakup or the liker connection?

July 4th of this year.

And how long were you together with the person?

Ten years.

Oh, a long time. Yeah. Okay. Were you married?

No, we weren't married. I was actually the stepfather, but the kids that were involved, I was the only one there. So I made the role of dad because the other fathers weren't. Weren't in existence.

So you're. You were pretty much living a married life. Right. So it was like, yeah, maybe the paper wasn't there, but you. You pretty much were. You had. You had kids playing husband and wife and that kind of thing.

Yep.

What's the thing? Was there a thing that happened that made you make this leap and jump?

I. I was just fed up with myself. She was also using too, and it was just a question of time before something really bad happened. And I was trying to make things better for us, but she didn't want to go the same road that I was on. I was an alcoholic or am an alcoholic. And I was getting to the point where we had to move past and move through a different place to try to.

And. And you wanted to make that change, but she wasn't ready.

Yes.

Okay, I gotcha. I guess the thing I would. I would say to you is, is that heartbreak is very similar to withdrawal. In fact, when you go through a breakup like that, your body really does go in withdrawal. You don't even realize how sort of, you know, how you can be dependent on a substance. Neurochemically you can be bonded to a person like the kids and the girl. And you're. You have all that oxytocin bonded and sometimes. And a lot of people, I bet you guys can relate to this. Like, you don't even know how connected you are to someone until the breakup happens. Like, you can think, I don't even want to be with this person anymore. And then you break up with them, and then you're like, I miss them. And then you get back with them, you're like, I only miss you anymore. Like, you keep going back and forth like that. It's because you're so. You're so used to the oxytocin level, the bonding chemical that's there. It's kind of like. It's kind of like if you drink and you drink for a long time, you can drink the beers, you don't feel anything. You don't even notice it. It's that same kind of way until it's gone, and then you notice it. So you're going through withdrawal and it sounds like you're going through heartbreak. You're going through drug and alcohol. And then there's the kid thing, which I think is a whole different. That's because you raised these kids.

It's hard to accept that I'm going through, I guess, grief and loss, you know, and. And it's kind of out of sight but out of mind type of deal. And then when I do start thinking about it, you know, I get really down on myself, like, shoulda, coulda, woulda, but never did. I'm trying to, you know, make up a feeling that. That says that it's okay, but in my. In my head, in my heart, it feels that I did something wrong.

What's the shoulda, coulda, woulda?

I could have took it to a different level. Maybe I wasn't there enough. But if I can't love myself, how am I supposed to take care of them?

That's right.

You know, So I don't know. I'm just stuck in limbo and Just wanted to get some advice from you, and I appreciate you taking time to cut that.

I think that you kind of have what you said. It's hard to accept when you said that. And I think that's the thing, is it's just painful. It's a painful emotion. And there's not a lot that you can do to make it go away other than realize that with time it'll get better. It's like withdrawal. Withdrawal is withdrawal, and it just sucks. Right. And you just got to know, like, some of it you just have to get through and get on the other side. And I think you should also at least give yourself a little validation that you are stand up doing the hard thing. And you cannot be a good parent in active addiction. No, you can't. I mean, you're not gonna be a terrible parent, but you can't be your best parent self. Okay. You know, I grew up with parents who had addiction and they weren't bad parents. But you can't bring your A game to anything when you're in active addiction. So you're doing the right thing to set that on track.

Yeah.

Is, does this mean that you don't get to see them or talk to them at all anymore? Like, is this like a break, like, complete or.

I, I, I went to a 28 day and I talked to her and told her that I was going to move on to a 90 day. And what happened was she wasn't really. She was pretty upset about that. And she ended up packing up everything and she moved to her brother's house. So I had to go to her brother's house and gather my things, telling her, look, I'm moving forward here. He didn't want anything to do with it. I know that he was still using at the time. It was just a big rigor role where I had to have the police come and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. So it wasn't, it wasn't fun.

It wasn't pretty. It was ugly. Do you have any contact with the kids at all?

No, she won't let me contact them. I mean, I can write, I can write, but, but will they really get the mail? I don't think so. So that's, that's the hard thing for me is I think that she's telling the children that, you know, dad left you, and she's gonna make it all in favor in her, in her court.

Like, she's spinning a narrative. And probably whatever that narrative is, is like, is, is not good. It's not, it's not the truth?

Yes.

Wow, that is hard. How old are the kids?

When we first got together, they were 1 and 4, but now they're 10 and 13.

Okay.

So. But they know. They know, though. They know with me not being around that things have felt falling apart, you know, and I, before I did go in to the 28th day, I did sit down and talk to him and told them what was going on. So they have contacts. Over the last four months has been very much nil.

Gosh, my heart goes out to you. That is painful. And I think thinking that those kids are thinking something bad, thinking that you left them or that you don't love them or that that's probably, if I think about it, that's probably like one of the hardest parts. I think that they.

I think that they don't know that I didn't walk out on them. But if something tells me that, you know, my ex would portray that.

Kids are pretty smart and even if they don't really understand it right now, they will. Yeah. Like, even if they buy into it right now, they'll understand it better as they. They mature. And the 13 year old may even understand it pretty decently right now.

Yes.

You had that talk before you left. Yeah. And if the 13 year old gets it, then the. That that 13 year old also has a lot of influence over the 10 year old.

Yes.

So you've got. You've kind of got like a good thing going there.

Yeah. They're pretty much almost inseparable.

They.

They go to the library together. They go to the playgrounds. You know, if one's doing something, the other one's right with them.

That's right.

You know, so. But I. I appreciate your taking time with me and trying to coach me through this.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing with us and be. For being vulnerable. Yeah. And here's another situation. I'm listening. It's Chris, right? I'm listening to Chris. Yep. And. And he's giving me a problem that I can't fix. Did y' all see that? Everybody's watching. Why are you doing Right. But you know what? I can listen to Chris and I can try to understand where he's coming from and we can talk through it together because sometimes I don't. I don't have all the answers.

Yeah.

And my heart hurts for you. And I can only imagine what it feels like to think those kids think something bad. It's just. It's just painful.

Yeah, it is.

It is. All right, thank you for sharing and nice to meet all you guys. Other People at the Willow house.

Yeah, there's a bunch of us here.

Oh, there is a bunch. Oh, my goodness. Hey, guys, does this count as like a meeting for you guys or something? Good, good. Y'. All. Everybody gets to their little sheet. This counts. Okay. All right, I'm gonna. We have somebody else backstage. Tony, it looks like. And we're gonna put Tony up here for just a second. Hello. Hi. How are you?

Hi, Amber.

Hi. Are you the one that said Facebook user? The first person.

I don't. I don't do Facebook.

Oh, you weren't watching on Facebook. Okay, I thought maybe that was you. Somebody was up there and said. It didn't say their name. I just said Facebook user.

Oh, no.

Tony, do you have something that you wanted to share with us?

Yeah, I have a 35 year old son. He's not living with us right now. He has. He lives in a camper and he just started back at work, but he came by the house about a month ago and he went in my. In our room and stole some money from. From my husband, his dad. And we had kind of thought he was taken, but didn't want to say accuse.

Right.

So I wasn't there at the time. And my husband told him he had to get out and don't come back until he gets here.

Help.

I'm not sure if that's the right thing.

What's your heart say?

He just needs help. He needs. He needs us. But. But I know in my heart that I can't have him still.

Right. So you have mixed feelings.

So I have to set boundaries and it's kind of. It just. It's hard because I have three boys and. And we don't have any problems with the other two. And he's that middle child, and we just have always had problems with him. Always. And you know, he goes get help and. But it doesn't last. He goes right back to doing drugs and he works. Once he starts making money, he quits working, starts living the abusive life. And he just. He wears on me because I just. I feel sorry for him.

So you. You feel sorry for him?

Yeah.

He needs help. But you also know that you can't just allow him to be at your house knowing he's. He's taking things right. So that's got. It's gotta mess with your mama heart.

It is, it is. It's very hard. You know, I. I pray on it and I listen to you every day, and I just try to do it what I think is best. My husband, he's. He's retired from teaching and he follows the book, you know, but when it comes to young kids, it's hard to follow the book all the time.

That's right. That's right. So there's a little bit of a, sort of a divide between how your husband wants to handle it and how you want to handle. Right.

And of course that causes a lot of problems.

Right. Is he, he's more the tough love?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. And, and what would you, how would you describe sort of more your style is.

I guess I'm more soft hearted, you know, he knows what to tell me. You know, my son knows what to tell me. He knows. Like last night he, he texted me at 1:00 o' clock in the morning and we text till 3:30.

Okay.

You know, mom, I'm so sorry what I did. I just want to come for a little while and I'm like, you, you have to talk to your daddy. So I called my husband because I'm on vacation with my sister in law right now, but this is what I'm doing, worrying.

You're on vacation but you're up all night texting?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

So I told him, I said, I said, look, why don't you let him just come, just take a good shower, a good bath, wash his clothes and then he can go back to his camper. Well, okay, go ahead, go ahead, let him come. You know, but he's, I, I don't know. I just don't know what to do anymore. I want to get him to get help, but I know it has, he has to want it. And right now he's. We have two parishes that he's going to court for.

Two? What does that mean? What do you mean?

Well, we have, we have parishes.

So like town, like cities, like.

Right. So he got arrested in both towns, which is like 30 minutes from each other. So he's going to court every month until he pays the fine.

Okay. Is he showing up?

He's showing up pretty good. The last time he was arrested is because he had missed court. So they arrested him and I, I bailed him out. I waited a few days, but I bailed him out because he had started a new job and I just didn't want him to miss work. So I didn't sign anything saying that they could put the money toward his court time. So as soon as he finishes going to court, I'll get, I think it was $1300 back.

Okay. And no money kind of thing. Is that what it is?

Yeah, it's my own money. But you do what you have to do. I just. I want to get him help, and I don't know how to do it.

Is there anything that you feel like you're doing that you wish you weren't doing or that you're not doing, you wish you weren't like, I know you want to get him help, but as far as your side of the street, is there something you're either doing or not doing that you wish you could change?

I. I need to be a little bit more strict. Okay. You know, with the boundaries. I need to do what I say.

Okay. And how often do you feel like you cave on the boundaries? Would you say it's like 50 of the time? 25? What would you say?

Well, right now, since it was my husband that. That put his foot down and for what he did, you know, I. I agree with that part. He definitely needs to stay away because we were missing money a couple of times, but we couldn't prove it. So, you know, and instead, like, out, like my husband said, we shouldn't have to lock up all things.

That's right.

At our age, we should be able to have our kids come over. But it's kind of hard because his two brothers, he has two other brothers, one younger and one older. And they successful. They successful at their job. They both marry. They both have good jobs. And he just. He knows he can. Like, he. He told me one time, he said, I just want to be like them. And that just breaks my heart.

And that's when you said earlier, he knows how to push your mama. But, yes, he's legendary. He knew that would get you.

Yeah, it sure did. And it works.

It works. But I do hear that when you were texting with him and he said, can I just go to the house? It sounds like you said, you're going to talk to your dad.

Right.

That was a bit of a boundary hold, wasn't it? Because.

Yeah, I think so.

Between you and dad. And you're. You and dad are going to have to work that out. Like, you can't come through me. So I feel like that was pretty solid.

It was until I called my husband and said, relapse. You know, it. Well, the thing is, he's working. He's working. Where we live in Louisiana, there's a sugar. We doing sugar cane hauling right now. So he works from 11 in the morning to 11 at night. And that. That's a lot. And he's showing up for work. He's doing his work. So it's like, I don't Wanna. I don't know. I don't want to push him out all together, but I'd like to stay married. Yep.

Is your husband gonna be mad that you called?

Well, when I talked to him, he said, well, yeah, I guess, but I could see, you know, it kind of upset him. I said, well, don't let him go. Don't let him stay. Just let him go. Do his clothes, shower, and go back. Go back to his trailer.

That's going to be hard, too, because, like, let's say he comes over and he. He does his clothes, he showers, and then your husband's there, and if he. That's going to put your husband in a really awkward position to have to be like, it's time to go, you know, like.

Right. Well, I told him. I said, but before you go, I told him because he begged me to ask him. I said, you need to ask your dad. So he texted me, mama, please. So I said, well, the deal is me and daddy talked. We agreed you can go only for those two things, but you also, you have to call him and let him know that you talk to me and that you're going. You have to.

He.

You know, he's scared. He's scared of his daddy. He. Because he knows he's gonna stick to his word.

Yeah. So you. You said, you're gonna have to work it out with dad, but then you kind of called out and worked it out for him.

Yeah, I did.

But then you're like, okay, I'm gonna try to stick a little bit, but I'll make him call his dad and.

Tell him mama said, yeah, I'm terrible.

No, you're not terrible. You're just a mom. I'm sure there are a hundred other moms watching right now who can completely relate. And I've been there myself, even as an addiction counselor and caved a million times when I didn't want to.

Right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Really?

I just. I get so many good things from you. It makes me a stronger person, you know? But I would probably have to listen to you 24 7.

It takes some reinforcement, you know? Right. It's kind of like it does. We can know it, but knowing it and doing it and feeling it, it takes a while to get from the head to the heart sometimes.

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Is there looking back on the laundry, shower situation, do you feel like it worked out, right? Or do you wish you would have done something different?

I don't know yet.

Don't know yet?

No. Because it's going to be tonight that he Goes when he gets back from when he gets off work at 11. So I'll be home. I'll get home tomorrow. So I guess I'll find out.

Okay. What?

You know, how it went. I just, I don't want to. I don't want him to feel like he's not a part of the family anymore.

Right. Right. One of the things I hear when I'm listening to your story, Tony, is there's a couple of boundary things. I mean, there's the stealing, which that's like an obvious boundary issue. You know, that's obvious. But a maybe not so obvious boundary issue is the fact that he's texting you and calling you all the times of the day and night and that he's sort of wearing. I call it the pester method. Please, please. You know, like when they're little. Please, mama, please.

Right.

And they. And they're wearing you down method. That's also a manipulation tactic. So I feel like there's the boundary issue with the money, but there's the boundary issue with letting him wear you down. If you want to be able to be solid on the, the other boundary, you're gonna have to back up and get more solid on this boundary because you're just letting yourself be exposed to it, and eventually it's gonna wear you down. And that's what happened.

Oh, it is wearing me down. I could tell you that. I, I, I try to keep up with a few other moms that have the same situations. I went to Al Anon. I haven't gone to it since COVID started, but I think I'm going to try a different approach this time, see what happens.

So I would sort of. If you have hard time holding the big boundaries, like the going to the house back up and focus on the interpersonal boundaries between you and him. How can I love him and be kind and considerate, but also sort of train him to interact with, with me in a way that's acceptable and appropriate.

Right. In my mind, I feel that I'm the only one he can talk to. And what if he feels like he's alone and he can't talk to anyone about his situation and he does something to himself? That's always gonna be in my mind.

But you're not, you're not saying I'm not going to talk to him. You're just saying I'm not gonna spend two and a half hours in the middle of when he, when I, he's asked me a question and I've answered it, and he's gone on and on and on about it.

Right, Right.

So you're being held hostage by that fear of, what if this is the one time? What if this is the one time? And because of that, that fear is causing you to sort of let maybe that go into a territory you don't want it to.

Right, Right. Well, I'm gonna try something different.

I think you're gonna have to have, like, less exposure. It's kind of like if. If you were talking to me and you didn't want to drink, but you were living in a bar.

Right?

So you're going to have to get out the bar.

Right.

So that's what you're trying not to cave, but you're also exposing yourself to, like, a lot of emotional turmoil. You're exposing yourself to it a lot.

Right. You know, he. My husband was hard on him growing up. He was just really hard on him.

And.

And I. And I just. I could never get that. I could never understand that. And so he knew I was always the one to take up for him or not tell my husband things that he did to. To not cause a fight in, you know, in the family.

So it's been going on a long time.

A long time.

Good cop, bad cop. Let me talk to mom. She'll work it out for me. Right before the drugs even, I guess.

He said he started when he was 14.

Okay.

I mean, he's 35. And sometimes he'll call me and say, I'm really tired. Well, then again, I'm thinking he's just trying to get. Get to me. I'm. I'm really tired of living this kind of life. I said, I tell them, okay, only you can fix that. Only you can do something about it. It's your choice.

When he says something like that to you, then ask a question, say, tell me more about that. What do you think would help? Explore. That's the little thread in the sweater, right? There. It is. And if it's just manipulation, he won't. If it's just like, I'm tired of living like this, and he's just saying that to you because he wants something from you, it'll be pretty obvious pretty fast, Right?

Well, I'm gonna try. And I appreciate you talking to me.

I appreciate you coming on and sharing with us. I think a lot of people can relate to your situation. I can relate to your situation. Yeah. All right, everybody, thank you so much for joining us. I'm gonna put the reflective listening video up here for you to watch next. The invisible intervention is in the description. And you guys will be here next Thursday live at 1 Eastern. So be here, join us, and maybe you can come on and talk about your sit situation. Bye, everybody.

Thank you. Thank you.