The Silent Destroyer Within: Confronting Addiction's Impact on My Family

You know, earlier this week, I posted this poll on YouTube and I said, which one is harder? Is it harder to be a person who struggles with an addiction, or is it harder to be, like, to love someone who struggles with an addiction? And overall, it came out that it was. Most people said it was harder to be the person who loves someone with an addiction, but the numbers weren't too far off. I think we could all agree, though, that no matter which side, either side, it's totally terrible and horrible place to be either. Either side of that coin. You don't want to be on either side. And Serenity has volunteered to come and share some about her story because she's been on all the sides of the coin that there can possibly be on. And it's rare that you find someone that has all those different perspectives. And I think so. I think that's why your story is just so valuable to us, because you. You're able to look at it from the different angles.

Yeah.

So thank you for coming on to share with us. Can you tell us a little bit just about the situation that you're in now and maybe some of the. The history that kind of led here?

Okay. So I've struggled with addiction my whole life. I had an eating disorder in high school, and that is now considered an addiction, which makes a lot of sense to me because I've been in counseling. I've gone to 12 step programs. I've gone to 12 step programs for marijuana eating addiction, gone to Al Anon for, you know, managing family members with addiction. So all of those things have been impactful for me. So I currently live in a situation with somebody who has an active alcohol addiction. And I've come to understand that that how you identify, that's really your thing. Like, that person needs to come to their own conclusion about how their addiction and behavior are affecting themselves and also the people around them. And also because I've been trying to stop smoking marijuana every day, if somebody. If he says something to me about that, I'm like, oh, okay, now I find out that's irritating. What goes through your mind?

If he brings that up, Give us the inside scoop. What goes through your mind? Because it. Because it's a natural reflex. Right. Like, even though you're sitting here saying, I know it's from I know anything, you're. You're like, even know and aware and you're acknowledging it. It's.

And I'm working on it. Yeah. Yeah. So what goes on inside my head was, oh, that's annoying. That's My problem, you know, unless it's like impacting you and want to tell me how it's impacting you. So that made me under. That helped me to understand that when I bring up somebody else's issue, they have that same response like, hey, who, who are you telling me what to do? That's kind of what goes through my head is that's my thing. You can't tell me what to do. So that helped me, you know, between that and the invisible intervention information, that helped me to realize that is not my place to bring that up. And, and I've been in counseling off and on and my therapist said, really don't ever mention that if something happens, talk about the, the, the incident.

Right.

And how you're behavior.

Right.

Because you don't need to talk about why the problematic behavior is occurring.

Let him like, let him connect that dot. Because he knows.

Exactly. So I would say, you know, this happened, you know, and then I would mention, you know, whether he was intoxicated or not. And that would just shut the conversation down. And, and I. Now I understand why.

Right.

I don't even need to mention that if I just talk about something that's occurred that I'm concerned about or that I feel impacted by, there is no need for me to connect that dot. That's right. That's. That's not useful.

Right.

So that helped the conflict, the level of conflict in our relationship, because I don't need to say that. And me learning how to stay out of that bad guy role, that has improved our relationship.

As predicted, it hits this automatic defensiveness button. Even, even if, you know, like you did something wrong, no matter what that is or that there's a problem if somebody like calls you out on it immediately you, your thoughts, I mean, sometimes immediately out of your mouth, it's going to come just depends on your personality. But for sure, immediately your thoughts are going to be like defending yourself.

You don't know me.

You know, like all this stuff, like it's me, all this, you know, my head might start shaking and everything, you.

Know, I'm doing it. I mean, I'm actively, you know, working on my own stuff. And I still don't like it being brought up like. And he's aware that I'm working on that. And I was apprehensive about even sharing that because I'm not trying to pressure him. But I have in the past, you know, like, I'm working on this, you know, I'd get sober with you. Forget it, you know, like, because. But still that was pressure coming from me.

Right.

So even seeking my own addiction help, I was apprehensive because I don't want that to be perceived as I am pressuring you to do something about it. I'm just trying to take care of myself. And as my counselor also told me, it. It's not. It doesn't make a lot of sense that I'm pressuring you, but I have my own addiction going on.

Right.

So I want you to do that, but I'm gonna do this over here. That doesn't make any sense either.

It doesn't. And I think you, you make a really good point. Serenity, when you say you have to really even think about, you know, if you should or how you should. If you're going to bring up what you're doing, because they can. It can, if you don't do it right, come across as in like you're saying, hint, hint, like, oh, I'm doing it, you know, like. Like you're sending, like this sort of like, sneaky little jab in there. Right. And sometimes people are. That's what they're trying to do is, is. And it's. It's just not nice.

Right? Yeah. And so this, the. In this situation, I did say it's bothering me. Like, I do not want to feel like this is something that I feel like I'm over relying on it as a crutch to, you know, manage my stress and anxiety. And it's not helpful for my anxiety. My therapist explained or my doctor explained that you get that anxiety rebound. Rebound when you're definitely, I don't need that. I don't need that. You know, So I, I addressed it in that way. Like, I'm doing this because I am very bothered by my own behavior, and I don't want to keep doing because the way it makes me feel about myself.

Yeah, I think that's a perfect way to do it. And a lot of times it has to do with your intention because sometimes people will, you know, like, maybe they. They drink with their spouse so they stop drinking as. As a way of telling their spouse, I need to stop doing. They'll say, well, I haven't had, you know, drink and however long or whatever, but it's really a jab. But what. The way you're saying it is very authentic. It's like, it's like what you're saying is, hey, I know I'm not perfect either. You know, I, I have, you know, crutches and coping skills too. And, And I'm going to Work on it. And that kind of humility, that kind of humility and vulnerability is actually very helpful. But it has to come from a sincere, authentic place. It cannot be like a sneaky little hint jab, you know, like criticism. Right?

Yeah. And I, I, I did, I moved out for about six months about eight years ago because of the drinking. And I didn't say that. I didn't say that was why. But when we reconciled, I did say that, like, part of the reason I left was because of the drinking, because I thought, you know, that would be like a wake up call.

Right.

And when I moved back in, he said, well, maybe I need to do something about that. Well, that was a long time ago. And then we never had another discussion about that until about a year ago. And he said, I never said that. Right, right. Because then I was putting him on the spot. You know, you said this like, a long time ago, and, you know, what have you done about it?

That was one of your, like, that was one of your, like, the thing I call, like, the moment of clarity or your window is open and, and you, it's so strange because it's like you don't know when they're going to happen. And, and they do sometimes just happen randomly. And then you're like, what do I do with this? You know, so you always say you have to have, like, some things in your back pocket. Not literally, but like, yeah, you have to have some plans. Like, if I get that window, what am I gonna say?

Because, yes, sometimes you don't feel it coming.

I have so many clients. It's like, it's on and on and on. They're bargaining, they're bargaining, they're bargaining. And I'm just like. And then they're like, okay, I'm ready to do something. What should I do? And I'm like, exactly. I don't know.

I had no idea what his reaction would be at that time, but it just came from my heart, being honest, that this is one of the reasons that I moved out. And when he said that, I was like, wow, that, that he'd never said that before. So when I brought it up, it came up, like, in the last year or so. And he said, I never said that. I said, you know what? The fact that you said that is burned into my brain. I've never forgotten that moment.

Like, you can see it happening, probably.

But as you, you really, I had no, I didn't know anything about how to respond to that other than I felt hopeful, but there was no plan. And when he says he's cutting back. I don't know how to address that. Like, are you. Are you not. I can see that he's trying. I can definitely see that. But I don't say it unless it comes up in the context of something.

So. So looking back on that moment, which was way back when he said, maybe I should do something about that. Looking back on that now, you know, since you've had time to think about it, like, you know, what do you. What do you wish you would have said? If you wish you would have said anything? Like, would you. If you could replay that moment, what would happen different?

I, at this point, with the knowledge that I have now, I would say, what would that look like? Like, what. What are you thinking would be effective for you? Or. Yeah, something along those lines. Rather than just letting it drop. I think it is important to have a response.

Yes. And I like that. Because if you don't know what to do, ask a genuine question, you're not gonna go wrong. Right. Like, you're not gonna go wrong with that. People like to talk, you know, if they don't feel defensive, they do, you know, if they don't feel like you're judging them. You could have even said, wow, really? You would do that? You know, that would mean so much to me. You could have just reinforced it, you know, like, how really, like, oh, my gosh, that would mean the world. Like, that would help so much.

Like, you could just so much.

I call that, like, water in the seed. Right. That's what I call it. It's like a little seed you get, like the lamps. It's like, put some water on it. Then we get the miracle grow out, you know, and we. We grow it. So. Right.

And we have had, like, we were meeting once a week outside the house to like, you know, sort of State of the Union sort of a thing.

Yeah, yeah. That's actually a good thing. Yeah.

Initially, that was one of the topics. And one day when we're out to lunch, he very genuinely, like, said that he really was, like, he really would cut back and he would not be intoxicated when I came home from work because he's retired and I'm still working. And that was also very powerful and, like, heartfelt. And I said, I. That would be very helpful. Yeah, because. Because I said, I don't know what's going to happen every day when I come home. I don't know what I'm going to encounter. And that's very stressful. So when he responded in that way, that Was very. That was a very powerful exchange. But again, I didn't have anywhere to go with that.

Right.

So, yeah, I mean, the good thing.

Is you didn't above. Above anything else. Most important thing is don't do anything to, like, make it bad. And you didn't.

Right.

Because you could have said, yeah, you should have done that two years ago. You know, you could have said something super sassy or said, so what I've been saying, you know, you could have done something like that. Which would have.

Sometimes I am sassy. If we have a conflict at night, I might bring up the drinking. And then I'm sad, so mad at myself the next day. And I've said to him several times, like, the next day, like, I fell off the wagon basically, with keeping myself in my own lane. Which is what. What you learn in Al Anon, too, is the only person you can control is this one right here. Stay focused on that. That's very important. So when I apologize, I think that's important. I. I take responsibility for the shitty thing that I said. And I've said to him several times now, I apologize for bringing that up because that's not in my lane. I should not be the person bringing that up. And that was not okay that I said that to you, that I made it about the drinking. That's not okay.

What does he say when you do that? What does he. How does he respond to that?

Well, it upsets him. Of course. It makes him mad that I'm bringing that up because. Oh, you mean when I take.

When you apologize, like the next day or whatever. Yeah.

He will say, you know, thank you, or I appreciate that, or. And so I've continued to try to. I continued to focus on staying in my own lane. So sometimes when I apologize, I want something. I want him to take responsibility for his part of the conflict. And he often doesn't do that. Especially if I say, well, what about. What about what you did? Or what about what you said? Or that kind of negates.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, wait, I can't control other people. That's right. I can't make somebody apologize. I can't make them be in any different space than where they are. I can't make somebody more ready to get help. That's not my role. And that has really decreased my stress, understanding that. But I'm still. I spent a lot of time reminding myself, oh, that's not my thing. Right.

And it's okay. You don't. The thing of it is, is you don't have to do it perfectly. Every time. I've been doing this 20 years, I mess it up all the time. And I know I do it because you can see on their face, you push too hard. You said it in the tone or, you know, like. And you can, as long as you have overall, you keep your relationship with that person good. You can fix it.

Right.

And it's not even that hard and sometimes even growing, because like you said, if you show humility, it opens their humility up. And he may or may not say, well, I shouldn't have done this, but he's probably thinking it. And the thing of it is, and I just know this from working with people for addictions for so long, even the ones are like, I like it. You know, I'm never gonna stop drinking. You know, they just, like, brag and they own it. Underneath that surface, there is something else going on. There is some thought. I mean, think about the problems that we've all had.

We know we.

We know where our flaws are. Absolutely. And we don't like to talk about it, and we don't like for it to be brought up and we get defensive, but it's brewing under there. And that's why those little breakthrough moments of clarity when that window opens, when they do say something, it feels like it's out of nowhere, but it's really not. By the time someone says something that out loud, they have been thinking about it for a very long time, and they're just not bringing it up because they're scared. But if they do, you'll be like, you'll push too hard, and then they get scared and close the wind, you know?

Yep. So all those reminders from watching your videos, the Invisible intervention, counseling, Al Anon, all of those, you know, sort of converge to say, you know, stay focused on yourself, say how you feel, make observations about the incident, you know, share how you were impacted by it, but stay out of that bad guy role. I mean, I think the way you say it is very powerful, that it's not my job to be shaking my finger at somebody. It's just not. And it's not effective with kids, and I'm an educator, that that's not an effective strategy for anybody. Right. It's hard to stay in that headspace when I get stressed out against instincts.

Because what it is, is, you know, this is someone you love and you care about. Not only is it affecting you, but you care that it's affecting them. And. And you want them to see it faster. And so what you want to do is Hurry it, that's when I mess it up as counselor. When I try to hurry it, that's how. When I try to hurry it, that's when I mess it up every time. Like, stay. You know, it's like, simmer. But even if you think about, like, with your own, like, journey with the. With the marijuana and wanting to cut back, if somebody came at you and. And started telling you all the reasons why you shouldn't do it, you probably will agree with a lot of them. But immediately you're going to start thinking, yeah, but. Yeah, but I need it, because. Yeah, but it's really not hurting anybody. Yeah, but it's the only thing helps me sleep. Yeah, but, you know, it's a reflex. And so anytime. It's like you're causing that person's brain to think and sometimes say the opposite of what you want them to think and say. So it's like you don't want to. You don't want to hit that trip wire because it's natural. Think about ourselves. We know it's true. Right. All of our experiences start coming. I mean. Yeah, it's normal.

Yep, exactly. So. And also, I wish that I had had more skills and more understanding when my brother was ill with addiction. And my brother passed away from drinking. And he was under tremendous pressure all the time from my mom and. And my dad. Like, you know, there's still. We're. We're still hopeful. There's still, you know, hope as long as he's still alive. But by the. By the last two years that he was living, he died at 54, and he's my big brother, and I'm 60, so that's a real bummer. I outlived him. I wasn't supposed to do that. I mean, I probably would have outlived him, but not now. You know, that should have been a long time ago. But I wish that I had been able to respond to his addiction in a different way sooner. I spent a lot of time with him the last year just accepting that what was happening. And I would visit him, and I would say, have you been drinking today? And he would lie. And I could see the liquor bottle on the kitchen counter reflected in the window from the seat I was sitting in. I said, dave, I know you're drinking.

Yeah.

And he would say. And I said, why do you lie to me? You know that I know. And he said, because I'm ashamed. And that just knowing that that was pushing his shame button, even though he knew that I knew and I was accepting the fact that he was going to die. You know, I. But I said that it's a choice that you're making. I wish you weren't making that choice, but, you know, I support you. You know, it's a human being. And I think that's part of staying in your own lane, that when we get. When I get hyper focused on somebody else's behavior, it gets very difficult for me to stay in my own lane, and that's not supportive of that other person. Kind of lost my train of thought there.

Well, I think you know what you're saying. I mean, those are. I mean, and you, it sounds to me like you, you responded to your brother with kindness. Even if you were. Even those pushes that you wish you hadn't done, they're pretty gentle pushes comparatively, because most of the time, and I'm sure you hear, you know, your parents probably pushed even harder. And it comes from a place of love and it comes from a place of fear.

Yes, Fear. And. Yep. We don't make good decisions when we're doing them from a fear space. Right. And I think I know where I was going with that other thing. My counselor was saying to me that, darn it lost my train of thought. Oh, to disengage from another person when they're actively in that addictive state, there's nothing, there's no word that's going to come out of my mouth that's going to make it better. And when I can avoid those kinds of conflicts, that doesn't do more damage to the relationship, first of all, because there's no point in shaming the other person. And to remember that my husband's a good person and 99% of him is a wonderful person. And focusing on that one issue sort of makes me forget this is a human being with feelings. And, you know, when I say hurtful things, it's not okay. And, and I'm not saying I'm not aware of that, but in the moment when I'm focused on that, that component of what is happening that is not helpful. I don't want to. I don't want to be hurtful to other people. I don't want to hurt somebody that's struggling with an addiction that's. That's not, that's not getting us anywhere.

Right.

And so staying out of that, not engaging when the person is in that state, that has been very helpful and powerful. And still sometimes, you know, I mess up with that too. I'm not perfect, and I. And it's hard for me not to beat up on myself when we have a negative interaction. But I will apologize, you know, for the things that I say. And that is very powerful and that's. That is received in a positive way that I am now able to take responsibility for. I, I helped create that conflict with what I said or the way I responded to something. And that, that and the individual invisible intervention. Trying to stay out of the bad girl role and taking responsibility when I get in that role has been a very positive change. And you know, I think the other thing that's so important is something that you said in one of your videos is that one when. Why do you, you know, it's always like, why do I have to be the one to change? But the fact of the matter is that when I change, that changes the dynamics with other people because it can't not change because I'm responding differently.

Right.

So I feel more hopeful now than I have, you know, in a while.

Because I feel like he's responding to you differently. Like, can he notice these changes? Does it make a difference?

He doesn't say anything about it, but we have less conflict, for sure. And I don't feel so negatively about the situation because I'm not like focusing on that when there's a conflict or I had to learn, I had to realize how hyper focused I was on another person and not on myself. Like, again, stay in your own lane. Well, that's very difficult. I have anxiety and ptsd. Put that out there. And so I can very easily get amped up into a very anxious state. And then when I say negative things, that increases my anxiety. Like, I wish I hadn't said that. So now I have another thing to feel bad about.

Right?

Again, that's not. To the other person or especially to me, it's not helpful because now I have what I considered a bad behavior. And also now I feel bad about it and the other person is hurt.

It's like layers of ickiness. Right? I'm so glad. Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Because you're so spot on. Not only are these techniques helpful for the other person, and it is the most effective way to go about this for the other person to help help them change, but. But for ourselves. Because even if they don't change, you feel better as a human being. You're not filled with so much resentment. You're not filled with a bunch of guilt about a bunch of terrible things you said or did. You feel okay in yourself. So regardless, it's going to be a win for you. It's probably going to be a win for both. But, but even if, if that, you know, if he doesn't turn you, you will still walk away from the situation better than you would have before.

Yeah, I had an appointment with Kim and I spent the first, you know, chunk of time talking about him and she then redirected to, you know what. But how am I managing my own. And I think that's very powerful to focus on self and having a good life regardless like that this situation and this person's behavior is not, should not be all, all the focus that I have, like it's ruining my life because actually I do have a lot of positive things when I. We have daughters, grandchildren, we all, and my parents, we all live within a 10 mile radius each other. I'm a race walker. So I'm very active doing that. So there are a lot of positive things in my life. But for a while I was so focused on, you know, what he was doing that I completely life because I was just obsessed. I don't. That's the word I would use. I was obsessed. Right.

It is, it's an addiction like obsessively constant, non stopping. And one of the, one of the ways I think to kind of connect with some empathy for the other person is like I feel like when you're the family member and you're going through this, even though like you're trying really hard, you're trying not to say mean things, but occasionally it's gonna slip out and you have a little relapse. And I think it's kind of like a good thing because it reminds you of like it's hard for me to stop this behavior. I'm like chemically dependent on it. I'm gonna withdraw if I don't say it. But even me, you know, even when I'm trying to, it kind of brings us to that humility of place of sort of trying to understand what they're dealing with.

Yeah. And recently you had a video and you were talking about the tremendous amount of energy that they are expending worrying about the substance or you know, situation where they're gonna have to go where that's not available. And I mean that is a lot of cognitive load on a person. And I was able to really think of the way you were framing and I realized that is, that is a lot of pressure to be concerned that, concerned about all of those components. And you know that you have people around you that are stressed by what you're doing. And I mean I just, I can't Imagine, Yeah. How suffocating that might feel sometimes when, like, there's a family event and where, of course, we're present, but other people are aware of the situation. So just so much pressure all the time. So I don't need to be adding to that pressure by saying, you know, why aren't you doing this? Or, why aren't you doing that? Or, you know, I'm not working on my own stuff, so. And I think something I shared with you earlier that I haven't shared here is that my therapist pointed out that some. So you're asking this person to, you know, address their addiction, but you're still using every day. How does that make sense? I was like, oh, that's a good point. I mean, I'm actively seeking help to deal with my own addictive habit, but yet, you know, still focusing over there while I'm focusing on my own stuff. And it's like, oh, okay, right. That's. That's not helpful. Again, so many things that I've done have not been helpful and have probably helped, you know, keep. Keep it going. Not, Not. Not intentionally thinking I'm helping or. But making comments that aren't helpful and, you know, getting in his space and, you know, making negative. None of that has been helpful. The moments where we've had these moments of positivity and clarity around his own situation have been when we were just. It's. It's in a calm space. It's not when we're having a conflict and then it's brought up and he's.

Like, you know, you're saying you this, you that. And then all of a sudden he's like, you're right. You know, that's not gonna. It's not gonna happen.

You're right. But that can be so. I think that's part of the value of taking responsibility for my own negative comments or my own bad behavior. When we have a conflict or realizing after the fact that I was triggered and then I, you know, reacted. That has led to some of our moments where we have a really genuine exchange about, you know, the impact. And he has said, you know, I'm working on that, or I'm going to work on that, or, okay. And I've been supportive in those months.

Because earlier you're saying you weren't sure if you were getting any. But. But you've told me several things just in our discussion that says, no, you're getting change talk and change behavior. So, like. So. So let's talk about that just for a minute. So that when you, when, because you've worked so hard to get that and you're getting it. So let's talk about, you know, what, what to do with it. What, what do you normally like, what do you do when you get that? What works? What doesn't work? Are there any holes? Do you need some help figuring out?

I think, I don't really know, like, what I would do if he were to say, I think I should maybe go see a therapist or whatever. I don't know what to say to that. I, I, I feel stuck in that moment. Like, I, I appreciate what's being said, but I don't know how to respond it to it in a way that would be supportive.

So what say when you get. Because that's an opening for. I'm ready to take a step and sometimes they need you to help hold their hand on that step. So, or like, you know, like just this is a little tiny, like, you know, pull along. Not, not a push or shove or anything mean. So in a situation like that, you could say something like, you know what? I've actually, you know, I've been in the for a long time and it's kind of nice to have your own sounding board. It's super helpful for me. You know, get. Talk all about yourself.

Great.

They listen to you. Who doesn't want that? You know, that's what I'd say. I say, actually, I think I, I've, I've heard of a couple people that are really good. You want me to call and see if they have an opening? If you just leave it hanging. Or you could say hand eat or vend on your husband. I mean, you know, this, you could even say, hey, I know a couple people. I'm a call, I'm gonna see if they have openings and then I'll, I'll report back and let you know because then that gives you an avenue to come back to it and say so and so has an opening, you know, 3 o' clock on Tuesday. I asked them to go ahead and hold it. Is that going to work? And then they may just say yes. Right. If they do, great, and if they say no, then you call and you cancel it or whatever. But, but like move the dial because they're literally asking you to move the dial because they really want it to be moved, but they're scared to move it themselves. And if you wait, they, that moment will go away by the end of the day, by the next day for sure.

Oh yeah, absolutely. So you need, you need it.

He, there is, he's Handing you the football pick.

You gotta pick that.

Be real cool about it. You know, like, be cool. Don't ask.

Like it's a drama.

In fact, I already have the playbook laid out in your head.

Know exactly what your place is gonna be.

But.

But look, like, I like that. I like what you said about, you know, I called a few places or whatever and just put that out there. Like a drive by basically putting that out there. And then I'm gonna go about my business because there's nothing I'm gonna say, you know, I. I laid it out there. You're gonna think about it. But if I sit here and, like, you know, go after that and try to engage in a big conversation, then that shuts the conversation down because I'm doing all the talking. And then it's like, pressure rather than just responding to what he said and, you know, then walking away and then not reacting. If he says no, he says no. He says yes. He says yes. And then he can follow up on that.

If you say something like. And this isn't a terrible thing to say. This is just sort of a little psychological trick. But if you. If you say, hey, do you want to see a counselor? They might say, no. If you. But if you give, like, multiple choice. I like to give multiple choice. If you give. If you say. If you say, do you think you would respond better to, like, a female woman counselor or man counselor? Because immediately when you give someone's brain that choice, their brain immediately, they can't help it, starts deciding which one.

And then, just like with kids, just like with a kid where you give two choices, you don't say, do you want. You. You don't give them, like, three choices that you don't want. You give them two choices. Exactly. Give them two choices. You want to eat this vegetable or that vegetable, or do you want to eat that now? Or do you want to eat it with your lunch or whatever? So then you're giving two choices that you know are acceptable to you, but they're getting that power to make that choice, you know, So I can see how that is also positive for the rest of us, you know, redirecting it to a positive two choices. And then now I'm empowered to make a choice. You're not telling me that I have to do this one thing. Like, there's not one choice, and I don't want that one.

Right.

Turn it. Then the response is, that would be better.

Or that kind of thing would be. Because if you say, especially something like, do you want to Go counseling. Or like, heaven forbid, if you say, like, do you think you need to go to treatment? That's the big daddy. It's going to hit the scared reflex. But if you literally put the choices out there, the reflex is going to be to decide the choice.

And that makes sense.

Bypass of the fear button sometimes.

And as I shared with you, my brother went to rehab twice in the last year and a half. He was alive. And because he want. Because my parents were afraid and they were concerned, and they kept bringing that up. And so the second time he went, I took him. Rather than my parents driving him, I took him. And I think that was less stressful for him. And they had him check in at night. And of course, he was intoxicated when I took him to rehab. And when we got there and. And, you know, he told me he wasn't. But as soon as we got there, of course, the nurse came out, and she immediately knew that she got.

She.

He said, you know where you're going to go from here? We're going to have to put you upstairs and detox. And he goes, I don't want to do detox. And she's like, I know you don't, but, you know. And another time, I took him to the hospital when he was quite ill a few months before he died. And we're sitting in there, and he'd been there a few times to the emergency room with my parents, and we were sitting there waiting for the doctor to come in, and they, like, he would have to go and see I have a lot of fluid on him, and they'd have to get a big syringe and take fluid off his belly. So he was telling me about that, and I was like, oh, my gosh, that sounds terrible. And he said, you know how I knew I was going into detox or why I was withdrawal? He said. And I said, how. How did you know? And he said, see that curtain? And it had a kind of a pattern on. He said that started looking like fish were swimming. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, it's that powerful that he started to basically have a hallucination.

Right.

But he knew it wasn't real, right?

That's right.

But he knew, oh, that I'm gonna. I'm in big trouble right now because I'm going into withdrawal and I'm in a hospital. And that he ended up being there that time for three days. They detoxed him. And I went to see him, and he was not even awake. Like, he couldn't really be even there at that time. So when I took him to the hospital that next time and he was sharing that with me, that was very powerful and impactful for me to realize, like, how scary that would be. That was for him, never mind for the rest of us. But he was scared, too. And he did tell me, like, big talk, as you would say. He would say, I don't want to quit drinking. I like to drink. Well, maybe, but I think he was so stuck then. And my doctor said that when somebody is to that advanced stage, all their joints in their body hurt. And when they drink, she said, actually they do feel better initially, because when.

They drink, everything feels better.

No doubt their mind, but also their body, because their body needs that substance. And so the only way they can feel at baseline is to be under the influence of that substance. So, again, very powerful for me to realize how consuming that was for him. You know.

I'm glad you brought up that concept of when they say, I like to drink or I like to do whatever it is, the addiction doesn't matter what it is. I think that's a good point, because most of them will say it, and the ones that aren't saying it are thinking it. It's a real thing. So the way. The way you might could respond in a situation like that, because I'm sure a lot of people listening have either thought that, heard that, said it, whatever is you, you can say, yeah, I bet there is a big part of you that does like the drinking. Is there any. Is there a part of you at all that doesn't like the drinking? Because there is. And when you ask the question immediately, like I said before, the brain can't help but to start to think about the answer. And so what you, you don't, you don't. If somebody says, I like the drinking, you don't want to say, well, you're killing yourself. You know, you don't want to do that. What you want to say is, I could understand just like what you're saying. I bet. I bet it actually, it's the only time you get some relief, validate what they're saying, the true part, and then. Then say, is there any part about it you don't like?

Be curious.

And they'll tell you that's how you get that thread on the sweater to pull.

Okay? That curiosity, like, be curious when somebody's saying something. Because as an educator, I'm a talker. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. You know, we tend to be very verbal and so too much over talking, too, like making a Comment and not waiting for a response or, you know, as soon as there is a response, like, then having a big conversation about it, and then, you know, too many words, too much talking, and then the moment is gone because I have filled the space and shut down the other person. Also not helpful. Right. And in terms of my sibling, even though in the end he was very ill and I, you know, we both knew that he was going to die because the doctor had told him he would still lie to me about being under the influence when I knew that he was. I could see the alcohol dying of alcoholism.

But telling you has.

I said, why? Why? Why are you not honest with me? And you said, because I feel. I feel ashamed. I. I feel humiliated and ashamed because, you know, this is happening. And wow, like, what a horrible space to be. What a horrible way to feel about yourself that you can't even be honest with another person that, you know, loves you and is supportive. But still, there's a lot of stigma around having addiction. I mean, it's like a dirty word. Honestly. It really is. For a lot of people, that is not a word they want to hear. It's not a word they want to say. They don't want to think about you or about themselves or. It's easier to say somebody else has an addiction than to say you have an addiction. I have no problem saying I have addictive tendencies. I've had an er. I'm struggling right now. I'm willing to address those things, and I do, but that's about me feeling comfortable in myself. So, again, I can't put that another person, like, look what I'm doing. I'm taking care of this. Why aren't you doing that? Or whatever. Because it isn't about them. It's about me feeling uncomfortable and addressing my own stuff.

Right.

That shame response, again, that's not helpful to make somebody feel negative. Not that I'm causing their feelings, but my comment is not helpful for that person if it puts them in a shame space. Right.

And I think. I'm so glad you brought up, you know, the idea of, like, when you get that little seed or that sweater thread, and then you want to say, even. And this is like, you know, it's not the worst thing to do is say, yeah, I understand that, and this happened to me or whatever, and. But it does pull attention away. And that's a moment like they're giving it to you. Like, they're just, like, peeking out. And so if you say, really, wow, how long have you felt that way? That like, wow. Like, you know, and then whatever they're giving you, is there any. Is there any more pieces of that? You know, what if. You know, how did that. Whatever. Just dig or you just. You're just asking, and they're just handing and handing. Because it's not so much about you knowing the information, but them saying it is. Is helping them process change. Right. Like, them telling you is the thing. It's not you hearing it, it's them.

Telling you, and that's a big deal. You know, those little moments of time for that to be said directly, like, yeah, that is bothering you. That is something.

Yeah. That they're really showing you something was probably kind of scary, you know, so.

Yeah. And that. Yeah. And I feel afraid at this point, you know, to, like, say anything almost. But I like the being curious. If I can be in that moment and remember to be curious and ask questions rather than say nothing or. So when can we check back about that? Well, that's not helpful. That's pressure also. I like that. I'll do this, and then we can, you know, can I come back to you in a week and, you know, check back or ask this or say.

I'll let you know tomorrow when I find out?

You know, Exactly.

Because then if. If you make an appointment, if you say, when can we check back? Don't do that. Just say, hey, I'll let you know. Tuesday after dinner. I'll let you know whatever. Because. Because if you don't, then you go through this spiral inside about, like, should I bring it back up? Can I bring it back up? Like, am I. I making it work? So you just. You already set the thing and. And the expectation was there. And then when tomorrow after dinner comes or whatever, and then you say, hey, this what I found out. What do you think? Let them answer, make the decision, move on. And it makes them not feel scared to talk to you about it because they know you're not just gonna go like, yeah, a little step and a little step.

Because I've heard you and Kim and names escaping right now. Campbell, say, you know, when the person says something to you don't. Don't want to have a big conversation about it, or like, maybe you've moved out, or you have a kid that has an addiction and, you know, they're living outside the house and they call and talk to you, that is not what they want to talk about. Or if they have a little moment of clarity, they do not need a lecture or a whole big conversation with a lot of wor. Because Then that shuts that little moment down because, you know, again, I'm doing all the talking or I want to have a big conversation about it now. So that's a whole bunch of pressure. I don't want to talk about something under those conditions. If somebody were talking to me and I had a moment of clarity, I don't then want to lecture or to have a gigantic conversation every time I bring it up.

Right?

So that has been helpful to me that. Say what you need to say or take that information, but don't then want to have a great big conversation like I always wanted to.

Everything they do, sometimes they do. And when they throw me that little softball like that kind of like they're saying, I do want to talk about it, but so, but you still have to be cool. You know, act like it's a first date, but not, but not too much. You know what I mean? You know, just be like. And then, so, you know, you could say, you can ask questions and you, if you just watch their body language and their tone, you can tell when they're done talking about it. And you can tell sometimes they do want. And it is okay to ask them questions as long as you're getting the feeling that they want to share about it. But you don't want to do. Is you just don't want to like, talk at them. You don't want to. To push too hard. You do want to push a little. It's about. It's hard. It's like a balance.

I, I once was saying something and my husband said, you know, that's really offensive. Like, I'm saying what I know you need to take care of. That's really. And I thought, oh, I could see how that would be offensive. You're a grown man, and I am not your boss and I am not your mommy, and I'm not in charge of you. And, you know, nobody needs another person to be like, telling them what they need to do to manage themselves. You're an adult. I trust that you know how to manage yourself and that you know what your own issues are. We're. We're our own worst critic. So I've tried to, through the invisible intervention, I tried to go back into being his partner and his friend and his lover. Not the person that's always like, all stressed out and bringing up all the bad things. And, you know, because I got into that space as I was sharing with you, I was so hyper focused on him and so obsessed with trying to fix it. I can't fix it. That's not my place to fix it. I can be positive and responsive and encouraging, but always being focused on wanting to fix something, that's not a good place for me to get to either.

Right. It's not healthy for you, and it slows the process down, really.

Exactly. That not that not healthy for me piece, I think, is part of what Kim helped me to realize, that you're so focused on that. But what about you and you having a positive life? Like, what is your plan? Like, how are you taking care of yourself and, you know, what fun things are you doing for yourself? And that feels a lot better to me to be focused on myself because I. This is something I can do something about.

Right.

Me having a different interaction. And because I have been able to back off, I still screw up a lot. But in the. I try to be, you know, more myself as much as possible, and that has decreased a lot of the tension. And so we've had a lot more positive times together now that I'm not always in that role of being focused on what he's doing or being cranky because I'm stressed out about, you know, my overall life situation. And that gets piled. Other things get piled on top of that. And, you know, now that I've been able to set some of that aside and stay in my own lane as much as possible, the relationship improved.

Right. And the more I love that what you and Kim were talking about, because the more you take care of you, the less angry you get at him. Not just because you're not focused on it, but because your needs are being met. And what happens is when you're so focused on them, none of your needs are being met, and then you're just even madder at them because you're, like, running my life, you know, because, like, you're suffering.

And so sometimes I've learned that sometimes those needs, that your needs can be met outside the relationship. Like, you know, if I need to talk about something that is. Would cause conflict for us, I can talk about that in counseling or I can talk to a friend, everything. That all my needs don't need to be met by my primary partner. That is unreasonable that I would expect that that person would meet all my needs.

Yeah, that's good advice. No matter. That's good advice for anybody. Listen to Serenity.

Yes. It's so. Exactly. So I do. I'm so very grateful that I found you on YouTube just randomly and that I continue to stay connected and watch your videos and the invisible intervention. And it's so just When I get off track, then I'll go find a video to watch, and that will remind me.

Right.

Right back here. Get right back here. And, yeah, I. I'm so grateful to have our relationship improve because, you know, we have a good marriage. A lot of our relationship is wonderful, and we've been together for over 20 years, and we both like to travel. We like to just get in the car and drive to the beach or, you know, so those things have started to reoccur. And so I feel so much more positive, and I can see that he feels more positive, and there's so much less tension in the household, so. Because when I'm, you know, in that anxious state all the time, of course that impacts him. How could it not? You know, it impacts my other relationships, too, because I'm stressed out. You know, I'm trying to do something with, say, my daughter or something, and, like, I'm already stressed out when I go to the activity, and I can't even enjoy what I'm doing because I'm so upset about. That's not helpful for me or for my partner or for the other people that I'm, you know, doing something else with, because in my head, I'm stuck somewhere else. I'm not even present.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I gotta tell you, you're. Your humility and honesty and vulnerability is quite impressive. It really is. Behind the scenes, when Campbell and Kim and I talk, you know, when we just. When we're just being people and talking, we always say this. When parents first come to Campbell, they're so desperate. I mean, they're just desperate.

When.

When spouses first come to Kim, they are angry.

Angry.

There's so many Kim's like these. They scare me. They're so angry. You know, usually. And when I first get clients, they're like, what am I doing here? Here are you. You know, they're just like, you know.

Yeah.

So. So for you to come in, just so, you know, humble and willing to look at, really, that's really quite impressive. And I. And I get the impression it's not just from what you've learned here. I get the impression that it's sort of natural to you as a person.

And I. And I've. I've been. I've done a lot of work. I mean, I've been in counseling most of my life. Yeah, I have reasons for that, but. And so I'm. I'm just a person, you know, I have lots of flaws. And when I can. Now, I'm not in that Anger space all the time. Because I've been able to back away and say this again. This is a human being with feelings and somebody that I love. I don't want to be harming that person with my comments or. So I guess some of my humility comes from just making a lot of mistakes and you know, again, I wish I met the international.

See them, you know, and a lot of people can't. Yeah, I think especially, especially spouses. Because it's hard because I mean, there's this feeling of it's not what I signed up for, you know, like, which I totally get. Like, I would, I would agree. Yeah, that's not what I said.

I think another, another component is that like when it's like a sibling or a parent or something, there isn't an expectation that you're gonna like leave or make that person do something or, you know, I, this is a, another human being with their own desires and needs and their own self reflection and their own inner critic. And I, I'm. Nothing that I'm going to do is going to change that. Like me leaving or me getting angry with the other person. That's, that's just not going to do anything that's productive. I know probably kind of got off my topic there, but just, you know, being, just hearing over and over. I wish I'd found the intervention so much sooner because it has helped me so much to get refocused and do a better job caring for myself. Because I can't do a good job in my relationship if I'm not healthy. I'm not taking care of my own stress. You know, I'm not taking medication like I'm supposed to. I'm not getting enough sleep, I'm not eating healthy, you know, so I'm doing all these negative things and then I'm saying you need to fix this or that. Well, no, I need to like take care of my own stuff and get my needs met, take care of my health, take care of my diet and all that. And that puts me in a better space regardless of what happens.

Exactly.

Yeah, I feel better, you know, and so I, Yeah, I just feel like a lot of my humility, which I appreciate you saying that. I don't know if I would use that word, but yes, I guess that is.

Oh yeah. So much learning, insight and humility. Like even when you said that your husband told you that was offensive. Most of us, if we got told that would just be up in our arms. But you, I mean, I can tell from you telling me the story you stopped to think about it, and you're like, I guess that was so. That ability to stop and hear feedback is amazing.

So I felt grateful that he said that. Like, oh, oh, my gosh. I didn't even think about how offensive that be. But when he said that, I did immediately go into something. Affection. Like, oh, yeah, that is not okay for me to be saying that. But in that moment, I was like. And then he gave me that real. And he was upset when he said it, but it really, like, stopped me right in my tracks, like, oh, yeah, what. Who am I? What am I doing? You know, I don't want to make. I don't want to make you feel bad. That wasn't my intention. I mean, I was frustrated and I wanted something different. But again, the other person knows what their own struggles are and don't need it to be pointed out.

Right.

Over and over again.

They're so much closer to the surface than you think. They always are. You know, they know. It's just. Just like, we know our own flaws. We just don't like to talk about them, you know?

Exactly.

It's. Yeah, it's a human. It's a human thing. Yeah.

Sometimes I feel pressured to, like, I'm supposed to do something about, you know, someone else's behavior. No, I. I can't do anything about another person's behavior. I can't. I cannot make my spouse do something. I. You can't make anybody do anything. You can try to intimidate them or manipulate them, but you can't make somebody do something. Yeah, and that has been helpful, too. Like, you know, the whole invisible intervention and staying out of the bad guy role. That's partly for me, that framed that to, you know, be positive and respond to those positive things. And I'm working on that. Responding to the change talk in a. In a way that's helpful rather than. I go into, like, fear mode when he says something. Like, I feel relieved and hopeful, but I feel scared to say anything because I don't want to.

Because you don't want to mess it up. Yeah.

Or you're like, I don't want to mess it up.

You know, when they finally say it, you're just like, now what do I do?

A lot of those moments realized. Yeah, exactly. I'm having a lot of those. I'm realizing that we've had a lot of those moments in the last year, whereas we had none of those for a very long time.

Because just in my conversation with you, I'm like, actually, you are getting Like a lot of those little, little moments. And those moments don't necessarily look like, I think you need to take me to 90 days of treatment. They. They look like they're sort of smaller. You know, they're. They're more like, you know, this really is causing a problem. Sorry how that happened yesterday. Yesterday. I'm gonna do better. I probably should cut it back. I mean, it's like little or. Or even like I feel really embarrassed about what happened last night. That's a change talk, you know, like, it's just that little opening up and when you can sort of recognize it and see, okay, there it is, you know, but it is hard. You got to be cool. And if you can't think of what to do, doing nothing is better than exactly.

Literally, like, just let it go.

Yeah, it's okay because you get another one. Just, Just sit with it. If you're not. If you're not sure.

And I used to think that, okay, well, if something happened yesterday, just whatever doesn't have to be even related to addiction. Like we had an argument or something. I would want to, like, talk about everything. Like, oh, this happened. Now I want to have a big discussion to, like, fix it. Like, and I've learned that everything doesn't need to be talked about. A lot of it just, you know, let it go, be a goldfish, five second memory or whatever. Like, let it go, it was yesterday, or live in today. Be mindful, be present in today, and quit worrying about what happened yesterday or. And that has been helpful too, to realize that there are a lot of things that don't need to be said or that don't need to have a big discussion. They're over. We both know it was an issue. Not talking about having a big conversation isn't going to change that. What happens to talk about it is.

Really, we need to talk about it. So you can tell me you agree with me and I can feel better. That's what that really is.

Right? That's a good point. Yes, exactly. When you really dig down, it's like.

We need to talk about it so I can give you more points and convince you, well, I'm Ryan, you can admit, and we can move on.

You're good at that, like, framing those things. And because of the way you frame a lot of things, I've been able to accept, like, oh, yeah, okay, I don't need to say anything, or I can say one thing and then walk away. I don't need to wait and have a big wait for a response. And you Know, have a big conversation about it. Because that doesn't. That doesn't increase the communication about it. It stops it. Right. Like, it made. Like, in the tracks over. We're not talking about.

Yes, that's exactly right.

Yeah, exactly. And when I talk, do a lot of talking. I'm a really fast processor. I have adhd, and my mind's going, like, a million miles. And my husband's a lot more like, you know, like, when he talks, he'll, like, pause, and then I would jump in and say something, and he'd say, well, I. You're not listening to me. Because I didn't even let him finish the whole thing. And I'm already, like, in there making a comment or, you know, making a judgment about this or that or giving directions. So I'm learning to, like, slow it down a little bit and to set some boundaries. Like, people would say, you don't have good boundaries. I don't know what that means. People didn't say that to me most my life. And I learned in the last year or two, between you and my counselor, oh, a boundary is something that you set for yourself with each person in each situation. It's not like, you know, if you do this, you know, then you're gonna have to do that again. I can't make another person do something. So I would say, I don't know if that means set a boundary. Like, is there like a template or some steps? Like, tell me what they are, and I'll do them. And, you know, oh, it's not a thing. There's not, like, a way to do it. It's. What if. If that happens, I am going to leave the house, or I'm gonna go upstairs and work on my computer. I'm gonna go watch television because I don't want to be in the conflict. So very powerful that reframing and understanding in that moment. Move on.

Boundaries are hard.

Yeah, that. They are. They are hard. They're hard.

Yeah, they are. Yeah.

When you don't. When you don't learn that as a kid. And, you know, my parents are my dad and my stepmother, my biological mother. Well, I haven't talked to her in over a year, for one thing, but I always. Was always trying to fix that because I felt sorry for my mom. But then I realized that the person I should have felt sorry for was myself and my brother, not her. And so my. I didn't learn boundaries because we weren't talked to. We weren't asked how we felt about things. You know, like, we moved A million times. And we were just told, you know, that we're moving again, so which means I'm changing schools for the, you know, 10th, 15th time. So I didn't know how to get my own needs met. I didn't know how to say, I don't want to do that. I didn't know how to identify my own feelings because I was never in. I was never encouraged to do that.

You weren't allowed to do that? Yeah.

And then When I was 14, 13 or 14, I came to live with my dad and my stepmother, who treated me completely differently than I had been treated before. And they would ask me, you know, well, what do you think about this? Or, what do you think about that? And they talked to me about going to college, and I was, like, terrified. Like, nobody had ever talked to me about going to college before. I thought I was just going to grow up and get married and have kids and be a secretary like my biological mother. Like, I was never talked about, like, what you might want to do as an adult. Like, none of that. So when I was in adult relationships, I didn't know how to say, I don't want to do that, or I feel scared or I feel apprehensive about trying that or whatever. I. I would say none of those things. I would just go along with whatever it was. And so I've had to learn the boundary thing because I didn't know how to. How to do it. And I'm not saying I'm good at it now. Saying I'm learning, and I'm getting more calm about it. And understanding that the boundary is for myself and not to make the other person do something has also empowered me that it's okay for me to walk away. It's okay for me to not say that. It's okay for me not to give a suggestion about what you might need to do. I can just take care of me. This is a stressful situation. So I am learning to say, you know what? This is not a good time. I don't want to talk about that right now. It's nighttime. I'm tired. This is not a good time. We've already agreed that nighttime is not a time for us to have a productive conversation. And so I've been able in the last six months or so to say, you know what? I'm getting very escalated, and this is not a good time for me to be having this conversation. And then to stop it. Like, if he continues to talk about, I'll just get up and leave the room. I Said. I've already said I don't want to talk about this. I'm happy to talk about tomorrow, you know, So I. That has also been very powerful for me that I don't have to stay here and keep saying the same thing or be in this conflict with you. I can stop it. Again, changing my behavior changes the dynamic of the relationship. Changes the dynamic of the conflict.

Yeah.

So, yeah, taking care of myself again, that's staying in my own lane. You know what? Here's my boundary for me. I'm gonna get up and leave the room now because I'm feeling uncomfortable, and I don't want to say something hurtful or mean. You know, like my husband would tell me, you're mean. Well, I was being mean. Sometimes, like, the things that I would say, they're mean, you know, they're judgmental and mean that I. And then I feel shitty about myself. So sorry. I feel crappy about myself because I'm hurting someone that I love, and that hurts me, too. So the boundaries I now understand are very powerful and very important to have so that I would feel victimized almost when I couldn't set a boundary with a person. Because now I'm going to do something I don't really want to do. And I'm not even talking about the context of my marriage. I'm talking about just in general. I would do things for the people that I really didn't want to do, but I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings or I don't want to let somebody down or, you know, so I was doing way too many things for everybody else and not taking care of myself. So, yeah, yeah, preach it, sister.

I like it.

I'm trying not to preach.

Well, you know, you're giving us good advice. I'll let it happen. I like it.

I'm trying to. I'm not trying not to be preachy in my relationship, relationships with people, because. And another component of that is, like, listening and being curious. So when my kids come to me, I have told my kids, if I start going into lecture mode, just say, hey, Mom, I just need you to listen. Because I would go into, like, fix it mode immediately without my ask me something. They're having a problem, and I'd immediately be out there, like, trying to fix it. And, you know, Hollywood said to me, mom, I'm not asking you to fix it. Oh, oh, you're not asking me to fix it. Okay, so being here.

Listen.

Right, yeah. Tell me. Assume that I have a solution for them.

Right.

They're aware of whatever.

Most people already do have the solution for themselves. They're just trying to work up the courage to do. Do it.

Exactly. So me too, because they're competent, capable people. My husband's person, my kids are smart. You know, I don't. They don't need to fix it.

Right again.

Back. Back to me again. Yeah, I think we're about.

I've kept you over time already. I think we're about to run out of time. But I just want to give you my sincere thank you so very much for being so open and sharing with us because I know I related to everything you were saying. So I know there are other people out there that are. And I'm just over here shaking my head and I know that there are people watching doing the same thing.

I mean if I helped one person with it, I said I'm. I'm glad for that. No, you're helping us and me to share also because that makes me aware of sharing the story. I think that is a. What I shared with the people that had an eating disorder that freed me up to be able to talk about it, said it out loud. It became easier and easier about it and then that made it be open to, you know, being more assertive about getting help for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I lives in secrecy and when I have a disorder I understand that secrecy because I felt painful that I had a knee disorder. I didn't want people to know that I was do and I was obsessed, my mind was obsessed with, you know, that understanding that is also situations with people that, you know, let get it out there is so important. Getting rid of that secrecy part of it. I think that's. That's been helpful in my relationship that we've had those moments that it's not a secret talk about once in a while. That doesn't mean to be. But if, and if any of that was right.

If you you guys let Serenity know in the comments or chats if anything she said resonated with you or, or give a like or a thumbs up so Serenity knows that you're out there, you're listening and you hear her. And I will see you guys again next Thursday, every Thursday at 1 Eastern. I'll see you soon. Bye everybody.