The Truth About Forced Addiction Treatment

Forced treatment can actually be successful and helpful in certain circumstances, and it backfires in other circumstances. So I thought we would dig deep into that topic today, really flesh out which circumstances can it possibly be helpful for and which circumstances really almost always either doesn't do anything or in worst case scenario, makes things a lot worse. For those of you who are new here, welcome to Put the Shovel Down. My name is Amber Hollingsworth. I'm a master addiction counselor and have been working with people with addictions and their families for more than 20 years now. This YouTube channel is all about helping you understand the science and psychology of addiction so you can get your life and your family back on track. All right, so let's get into our topic. I got an email earlier this week from someone who was asking me. They were concerned about a family member. This thing was her brother. And they were telling me what was going on, and they were saying, I'm really scared. He's been in a downward, downward spiral. I'm afraid he's gonna overdose or something. Should I get him committed? Should I do intervention? What should I do? And that made me think of just how common of an issue this is and how it's kind of a complicated issue and it needs to be explained a little bit. So the way I think I want to break this down for you is talk about the different situations that forced treatment usually occurs in. The first kind of way that this usually occurs is in a situation where someone is what we call committed to treatment, involuntary committed to treatment. And that happens when, for some reason, they are deemed a danger. And wait, let me back up. An imminent. That's an important word here. An imminent danger to themselves or others due to their substance use. Now, people can be involuntarily committed when they're in imminent danger to themselves or others for mental health reasons or substance abuse reasons. In the state of South Carolina, it's two different sort of avenues. It's two different, almost like paperwork trails that you have to go down. And it's difficult to prove that someone is a danger. An imminent. Don't forget that word, you guys. Danger to themselves or others because of substance use. Anytime someone has an addiction issue, or almost anytime someone has an addiction issue, they're posing a danger to themselves and sometimes other people. But to show someone's imminently in danger, meaning if we don't do something, this person is likely to end up dead or serious harm, or someone else is like, asap, that's a little bit more difficult to prove, but it can be done. Some states it's easier to do than others. Like I don't know the laws in all the states, but like I know in Florida it's a little bit easier to do there and I think they'll keep them longer. So I'm going to tell you kind of how it works in the state where I am. And it's similar in most states. There's probably variations in it, but it's. It's not crazy. Crazy different? I don't think so. And usually when someone gets committed, it's because they've either wound up in the hospital, maybe from an overdose situation or some other kind of situation. And sometimes they end up there because something medically happens to them. Sometimes they end up there because their family or a friend or someone else is so concerned they call for like a welfare check and then they're taken to the hospital for evaluation. There are different ways that this happens, but nonetheless the process typically starts because some clinical professional, usually a doctor, a psychiatrist, a nurse, a social worker, and usually more than one, it's usually two, will meet with this person and they'll sort of evaluate is this person a threat to themselves or others. And if they deem that that person is, they will contact a judge, like a probate judge is how it works here in South Carolina and that, and tell them what's going on. And that judge, if they're sort of in agreement, they will write an order for the person to be held for evaluation. And this is where it can be a little bit confusing because we use the term commitment, that's kind of how we say it. But actually they're not officially considered committed at this point. They're held for evaluation. And this is where states can differ and stuff as far as like how long that lasts. In South Carolina it is. They are held for, I think three to five business days. In the hospital I used to work in and I did a lot of these examinations after people got to the hospital. I would do the evaluations for whether or not they were ready to be released. So they would usually be held for five business days. So if they came in on Monday, their evaluation would be done on Friday. If they came in on Tuesday, their evaluation probably wouldn't get done back until the Monday before because you have the weekend. So it's just the five day math there. The thing about it is this, you have to go by what this person is telling you. And most people are smart enough to know what to say or not say to get out of the hospital or get out of being Involuntarily committed. And I know you're probably thinking, yeah, but, you know, they're probably not telling the truth. Okay, yeah, maybe I have that hunch, but it's not something that I can prove. So you have to pretty much go based on what this person is telling you and in some circumstances, also, like, what their family is telling you. But even what their family is telling you, you've got to have some kind of evidence because. And this is important, it shouldn't be taken lightly because you're taking away someone's freedoms. Okay. Like on scary movies, how people just get, like, thrown in the mental hospital and locked up, and then they're trapped in there and they can't get out. That's not really how it works. But, you know, we don't want that to happen to people. So it's a bunch of hoops and boxes that have to be checked to make this get done. Which I agree with on one hand, because, hey, we. We all want to be protected, right? No one wants to be thrown in the mental hospital or something if they don't need to be. Even the ones that need to be, don't want to be. So. So it's a good thing it's that way. It's also frustrating because when someone has a mental health problem, they really do are not a mental health problem, but a severe addiction issue. They really do lack the insight and judgment to make healthy decisions for themselves. And that's another part that goes into the evaluation. If you can show that someone lacks the insight and judgment to keep themselves and others safe, even if they're not making kind of direct threat or something, then you can. Again, that's a criteria to either get someone held for evaluation or committed after those five business days are up. If they are still considered and they're evaluated by usually two more people, if those two other people evaluate and think that they're still in a danger zone, they can make that recommendation to the court. Ultimately, the judge makes the decision, the final decision, and then the judge decides whether to release them or hold them longer. When I worked in a hospital and did these evaluations, I would probably say 95% of people got released after that five business day. Very few of them got held longer. Because a lot of times when people get committed, whatever, there's sometimes there's like a. An acute crisis going on in someone's life, and after, you know, they've been seen by a psychiatrist, they've had five or seven days to kind of think it through. Sometimes the crisis has kind of settled down and they really are in a better frame of mind. Even if that happens, they're in a better frame of mind to know what they need to say and do. So most of the time those people get released. Now that's very important. The reason I went through all that for you here is because that's a specific kind of forced treatment. There are other kinds. We're going to talk about those in a minute. But this is the kind that most people think about when they think about like forcing someone to treatment. It's involuntarily committed for reasons, because they're a danger. Okay? The issue is this. In most states, South Carolina included, you're probably only going to be held five business days. Okay? So if you're waiting, if you think being in an acute care facility for five to seven days is going to fix an addiction, you're crazy. It's not going to fix an addiction. Now sometimes it can allow someone to clear up enough that their thinking gets more rational that, that they can make better decisions. And they can make decisions about, you know, following up with aftercare or staying longer on their own terms. Like they can choose to stay longer and they're not committed anymore, but they just choose to stay. And that can be helpful. And it can also be helpful if someone is truly in an acute crisis. Like, like they're melting down, maybe they're having drug induced psychosis. It something like really out of the ordinary is going on and sometimes it's enough time for that to pass. It is not enough time to sufficiently address an addiction that will help an acute. Which means urgent, immediate. It's like the emergency department, okay. Like if you're having a heart condition, you can show up to the emergency department and they might can stabilize you, but it's probably not going to fix the heart condition. So I want you to think of it like that. So should you have someone involuntarily committed for those short term periods of time? Yes, you should. If they really are an imminent danger to themselves or others because you need to keep them safe. Right? That is a good reason to do it. But no, it's not. If, if you're doing it because you think it's going to fix the, the big problem, it's not going to fix the big problem. And there is, you know, there is a risk here, which is if this person who has the addiction knows that you're the one that initiated that process, you can't commit them. A judge has to do it. And in order for that to happen. A doctor, a nurse, a judge, like a bunch of people. Look, so it's not easy to do, okay? But. But your loved one is going to think you're the one initiated the process, because you are the one that initiated the process. They're gonna be real, real mad at you. And it's gonna. If you watch this channel, you know, we talk about building credibility, getting those trust points. You're gonna go all the way into the negatives with your credibility and trust points. But that's not me telling you not to do it. That's me telling you to think strategically about doing it. It is a good option for keeping someone alive for the next five days. And sometimes that is exactly what you need to do. I'm not telling you not to do it. I just want you to think strategically. Because a lot of times people think, oh, they're committed to treatment, and they think, oh, the person's going to be there like 30 days or 60 days or 90 days. And that's not usually the case. Like I said, I think in Florida, and you guys that are in different states or different countries, please chime in, tell us in the chat and in the comments, like, how it works in your state, because we're all curious. In Florida, I think they will keep you longer. So if it's a situation where they can get kept longer, that can be more productive. So let's move into that kind of forced treatment. I think forced treatment can be a lot more effective if they're kept long enough. Five to seven days. Just get someone barely detox. Like, their brain is not. It may be stabilized, but it's not thinking clear yet. And even if it's thinking fairly clear, and even if the person wants to be sober, they're still so vulnerable. I mean, they haven't been so very long that when you put them back out in the same environment, even if they're trying really hard, it's not good. It's not good chances, okay, because they're fragile. But if you can keep someone longer. So in my opinion, if you're going to do forced treatment and you can actually keep the person there longer, that has a much better chance of being successful. And it's surprising to a lot of people to know that whether or not someone goes into treatment voluntarily because they decided to or because they were forced in somehow really doesn't affect the statistics that much. What does more affect it is how long they're there. So if you're. If they're going to be forced in and they can Be kept longer now you got a better chance. And that's because you're giving the person long enough for their brain to clear, to think more clearly. And when it comes to addiction, a lot of times you just don't see how bad it is until you get a little distance from it. And I think that can be very effective. But there's one more factor that needs to be in play here. So there's length of time. It's very important. I think 30 days, good minimum there. If someone's involuntary, I don't think it always takes 30 days if someone's voluntary because they already decided, you know, they're already in the active stage of change. If they're not in that active state, change, you got to work through the stage of change. You got to get your brain to clear. You got to get detox. There's just a lot. So you're going to need some time. The other thing I think that needs to be in play here is the person has to have some level of understanding that they have a problem that needs to be addressed. Does the person have to want to get sober? No, not at all. Because sometimes, like I said, you have to get sober to want to be sober. But if this person truly has absolutely no thought or idea, they're like completely, totally in denial. Like, they don't think they have a problem at all. It's not going to do you much good because they are going to use when they get out. If they're in there 30 days, they probably will clear. They'll probably think more clearly. They may even have some change talk happening. But if they haven't really proven to themselves several times that this is a big issue and they're going to have to like really deal with it, they're going to go right back to using. Okay, now, it's not something worst thing because if they have a decent experience while they're there, then it might make them less scared to go back. But the fact that they're going to go back out and continue is. Is pretty much a given because people kind of have to work. You know, I talk on this channel all the time about the bargaining. I have to work through those stages. You can't really skip them. You could speed them up, but you can't really skip them. So. But I need you to understand that's different than a person wants to get sober. Because a lot of times someone can know they have a really bad problem. Someone can know that it's destroying their life, but they don't want to get sober. That kind of situation, you put a person in force treatment for long enough, a lot of them do very well and, and they come out and they get long term recovery. But when they truly do not think they have a problem. Now I know a lot of them will tell you they don't have a problem, but some of those people know, some of them don't. The ones that don't are going back out to you. So I need you to carefully think that through. Because when it comes to treatment, timing is extremely important. It's sort of like thinking about like taking an antibiotic, like you definitely want to use it, but not overuse it. Because if you overuse it, it becomes less and less effective. And if you send somebody to treatment involuntarily, especially more than once, and it doesn't work for them and they don't have a good experience when they do get ready to change and they want to change, they're not going to want to go to treatment because they had a bad experience because it didn't work for them, and so on and so on. So you want to. It's kind of an ace card. And timing is extremely important when it comes to when do you play that ace card, when do you take that? There are circumstances you do and circumstances you don't. Now there's another kind of forced treatment and that is when you have some kind of legal problem. Right. And it's usually some kind of version of go to treatment or go to jail or, or go to treatment and get out of jail sooner. Right. It's sort of an option that you have here. Usually when that's the case, those treatment episodes, if they're inpatient treatment, they're longer. And I think that kind of situation actually can be extremely effective for a couple reasons. One, because they're usually longer and two, because they're kind of like have a big stakes on stance over. So that accountability and that leverage actually goes a long way. So I feel like in that circumstance that can, that's much more effective in my mind than the whole like have someone involuntarily committed for five days because you just, you. There's so much more leverage, there's so much more oversight, it's longer. There's just a lot of more factors there. And usually if it's to the point that someone's getting legal charges, chances that they know deep down they have problems is a little higher. Okay, so you've got some things I think that work in your favor in that regard. Now there is the Kind of legal trouble where you're, where you have to do some kind of outpatient treatment. You're mandated to do outpatient treatment. Sometimes you can be mandated to do like 12 step meetings or attend some kind of community recovery meetings. And that's hit or miss. I think that mostly depends on if the person has it in their heart that they want to change. Maybe that legal problem really was a significant wake up call for them and they going to use it for that purpose. Then yeah, I think that that can sometimes be effective, but it's more effective when it's mandated inpatient treatment if the person really is sort of resistant. Now there's another scenario that, that most of us will consider condo force treatment. So you're not like legally locked in, but it's like when your family leverages you in. It's one of those do it or else situations. Do it or else I'm divorcing your butt. Do it or else I'm not paying for your college. You know, do it or else whatever. You know, there's like a, there's a, a leveraged ultimatum there usually. And so like I call that voluntarily involuntary or something. You know, it's like, I'm going, but I don't want to. No, I'm not legally required to be here, but I'm really batting into a corner. That kind of situation again can be effective if you have those other two factors in place. If they're going to be there for enough time and if they do have an inkling that there is a problem. Right. And that it is, it needs to be addressed. They can be fighting you about tooth and nail. They can be like, I don't want to do it, I'm never going to get sober, blah, blah, blah. You know, they can do all the big talk they want to, but they know in their heart that there's a problem and you enough to think clearly. A lot, if not most of those people actually do move into the action stage of change and they do make progress and they do very well. So that's where it can get tricky. As a family member, can you push someone into going to treatment? Yeah, you can. And I think sometimes that's a good thing because sometimes people really do need a little push. Let's be honest, a lot of people who are in recovery now, if you ask them, if you ask them at the time, they would not have agreed with that. If you ask them now that they're sober in recovery, they'll be like, yeah, I wouldn't have went, but I Kind of had to. And, and actually I'm grateful that I had to because I'm better. Right. So you can't ask someone at the time. You have to ask them after the fact. And most of them will tell you, even most of them that maybe even go back out and use after the fact. Most of those people will tell you, yeah, I kind of needed it like it was bad and I couldn't, I couldn't make that decision for myself. So I do think that that can be effective. But again, you need to really assess what stage of change your person is at. Are they at least a contemplator? Okay, if you don't know what that means, then check out my videos on stages of change. They need to at least be in the contemplative situations if they're a pre contemplator, you're wasting your money. And let's face it, addiction treatment can be real expensive. So don't, don't waste your money. Don't use the antibiotic when it's not time. Save your ace card. And in that kind of situation, that's when you want to do something more like the invisible intervention, which is designed for exactly that. It is designed to help someone get out of denial, move through those stages of change. If you can work a process like that and then something happens, either the person decides to go to treatment, maybe they get a DUI and they have to go to treatment, or maybe you say, okay, like this is this, like you get help or else. Now you've got a formula, a setup for possible success. You always have to weigh that against the damage it's going to do to the relationship. Now when they're legally forced in there because they have some kind of legal charge, then that's not necessarily going to damage your relationship with them. But the other two where you sort of file the papers or contact the officials to have someone committed or you're kind of ultimatoing them in there. I don't think that's the word. But there's a risk of damage to your relationship and it causes serious distress. So you wanna, it's not that you don't wanna do that, but it's just you wanna weigh it out and think carefully, make sure that the person has some level of understanding that it is a problem and that it is making their life worse. I especially see this with young people. Like maybe it's a college kid and their substance use is getting out of control and they're flunking out of school and the parents like you're alcoholic, you're addicted to cocaine or whatever. You know, you got to go to treatment. In a lot of those cases, that young person really, truly does not see they have a problem whatsoever. They may think to themselves, yeah, maybe I partied too much and I should have went to class more. But they are not even close to thinking that they have an addiction. And so when you push a person that's in that stage of change into treatment, it just typically doesn't work out very well because not only do they resent you, but they're literally sitting there rolling their eyes the whole time thinking, oh, my God, it's so stupid. I'm not like these drug addicts over here, you know, like, I'm a college kid. College kids drink, they smoke, they whatever. And they're. They really, really are in true, true, full denial. You can jump the gun on that. And I know it's hard as a parent because you see it coming and you're like, oh, no. And I might, like, hear your kid, college kids case or even talk to college kids, and I'll say, oh, yeah, this is definitely addiction, but they're nowhere near knowing it yet. We're gonna have to work through some of this bargaining first, you know? So even if you know it's addiction, and I know it's super scary, especially as a parent, you want to rush and you want to push this person into treatment, but timing is very important. Now. Another situation where I see this, which is kind of different, is a lot of families will do things like they'll say, if you relapse one more time, you're going to treatment. Or someone has a relapse and they say, I think you need to go to treatment. And you can't necessarily jump to that conclusion because, number one, if someone's been sober for a while and they've relapsed and they've literally been using three days, the treatment center probably isn't even going to readmit them because they probably don't even meet criteria like insurance criteria or clinical criteria to get in there. And so they may not even can be admitted. And also, if someone's in a relapse and they have moved fully back into denial, again, you're in that same situation. Even if they knew it and they had a year sober and they were sponsoring people and they knew it, sometimes when people relapse, they go all the way back into denial. How many of you seen that? Have you seen that? Raise your hand if you had happened to. You raise your hand in the Chat or the comments. I've seen it. It is mind blowing. It's like, I mean, I don't know, it's just like, it's amazing to see. It's not amazing in a good way. It's amazing in a shocking way. And I cannot believe, like two days ago they got it and now they really don't. If they're fully back in denial, basically what's happened is they don't have it out of their system yet. They've been told if you relapse, it's going to go back to the way it was. You're going to be using what you were, your life's going to become unmanageable. And if you intervene in that too quickly by forcing someone into treatment, like big treatment, you're slowing down the recovery process. Now sometimes people, they have a relapse, a lapse I like to call it, and they realize it and they may say, I need to go back to treatment or they may step in and do something. In that case that's perfectly fine because not everyone goes fully back into denial. But if you sense that that's what's happened to your loved one, then you're going to have to go back, watch these videos and figure out what stage of change you're in. And I know it's painful, but you're going to have to go back to what do you do in that stage of change. And I know it's frustrating, it happens to me, I get frustrated. But even me, when I'm seeing people in session, I got to go back to where they are. You have to meet the person where they are or it doesn't work. Annoying it may be, but it is the case. So I hope that helps you to understand a little bit about how to make decisions about forced treatment. And I'm just going to tell you, it's just not easy. It's not easy to get someone committed. I mean, it's really hard actually to get someone committed. And it's even hard sometimes to get the legal system to mandate any kind of substantial treatment that's substantial enough to do any good. Usually it's after like several legal charges, multiple incidents. Sometimes in that case they'll get mandated as some kind of like long term treatment or whatever. But even that's difficult to do. I know you think if your loved one gets picked up one time for possession or selling drugs or DUI or something that the judge going to do that. It's not the case. In DUI case they probably get mandated just some Kind of like outpatient something, but very doubtful they're going to get mandated to like an inpatient kind of treatment. So think clearly. And the most important factor is the stage of change that the person is in when it happens. All right, we are about to the part of this live video. We're going to take questions and hear comments. And I would love to hear from you guys. I know that this is a very controversial topic. People have very heated opinions on both sides, you know, both for and against. And I want to hear your. What your thoughts are and I especially want to hear from you. If you have experience with this. Have you ever been forced to treatment? Did it work? Did it not work? Have you ever forced a loved one into treatment? Are you glad you did it? Do you regret it? Tell us about your personal experience. We'd love to hear it. While you do that, I will remind you that there are resources in the description. There is a link to our page on our website that has tons of free, downloadable addiction recovery resources. They don't cost anything. You just go and you can download them. You can get find out about doing consultations with our specialists to talk about your situation and figure out what you need to do. I think there might be a spot left for recovery coaching with me next week or the next week, I can't remember. But there's a spot to start in the next two weeks, I think. So you can kind of look at that if you need to. And most importantly, if you're thinking about involuntarily committing someone to treatment, then you probably need to be looking at the invisible intervention because you need to make sure they're in the right stage of change. That's the formula actually can work. All right, let's take some questions, some concerns. Bree's gonna put them up here. I'll put my granny glasses on so I can read them. Here we go. Vicki, 55, says my son had court ordered one year in Georgia. It was the best thing that ever happened to him. He stayed by choice for over one year, is now working, going back to school and helping others. Yes. I love this. This is exactly what I'm talking about. That's the kind of thing that works. If they would have put him in there for a week, it would not have worked, right? Vicki, 55. I know you know that, right? It's the length of time and the fact that it's leveraged with that legal charge. I think that makes it more likely to work because the they're a lot more likely to be compliant for that whole time. So I think that's actually a good setup. Ms. Curry's neighborhood says my young adult son is in Georgia now and court ordered residential recovery place for one year. What are some red flags that the organization is not addressing residents issues but just a business. Hmm, that's a hard one. It's a good question. But it's a hard one because. And the reason it's hard is because people who don't want to be in treatment are going to split you against the treatment center. Just like how I talk about, they split family members against each other. They're going to be telling you whatever about the treatment center. And the thing of it is, they're going to be telling treatment center all this stuff about you. They're going to be telling you the promise treatment center. They're going to tell them the treatment center that promise you is part of an addiction. It's addiction symptom. So you can't necessarily go by what your loved one is saying. That doesn't mean you should discount everything they're saying. That means you should listen to it and then kind of look into it yourself behind the scenes. Most of the time when it's like a sketchy place, like what I think you're talking about, where it's like it's just a money machine, you, you can go visit and see it because you can see what's happening there. You can look at the clientele. You can say, oh my gosh, this is really just like a flop house. Like you can kind of tell when you go if your loved one's just complaining. You know, they may say things like I'm not, I'm not even getting therapy here. Like I haven't seen my therapist. You know, once a week or once every two weeks. They may tell you some things like that, but you need to, to look into it to figure, to figure it out. Christine says, I'm worried about my brother's state of mind when he gets out of jail. He has nobody. He will be all alone in his house and the rest of the family are not helpful suggestions. He will isolate. Well, it does sound, Christine, like he does have you. And even if he's not staying in your house, which Christine, I'm not suggesting that you get him to stay in your house. I think just knowing that you're there and that you're supportive of him will go a long way. If he is trying to change things around now, if he has no intention of changing things around and he's just counting down the days and he's what? Can't wait to get out because it's on like Donkey Kong. There's nothing you or anybody else is going to do anyways. But there is so much help and support out there. If he has any inclination at all to look for it, to accept it, you can find it for free. You can find it in any community, and he can find support. So the question is, is whether or not he will be willing to take those steps. All right, hold on. Bri is finding our next question. It's coming. It's coming. Here it is. Modern monarch says, Amber, I freaked out really bad yesterday after I caught my partner drinking. I feel so exhausted, I had a meltdown, and I screamed at the top of my lungs and tossed his beer. How do I handle this? Great question. It happens to all of us. You know, we family members have relapses, too. Okay? Just like. Just like people that are trying to figure out addiction have relapses. This is a family member relapse. It's a both relapse. They relapsed, triggered you to relapse, and now you're both on the relapse train. What you want to do is you want to get yourself off the relapse train as fast as possible. And I think the fastest way to do that is to just acknowledge it. It's just to go to your loved one and say, I'm really sorry about the way I handled that. I know me freaking out doesn't help anything. I wish I could go back and do it again. I realized I was in the wrong. Not I was in the wrong for being upset, but I was maybe in the wrong for just losing it. I'm gonna try to do better. That would go a long way. Think about if your loved one came to you and said that same thing on their side, right? I'm really sorry. I know I relapsed yesterday. I know I lied to you about it, and I know that that's not helpful. I know that's not gonna get me anywhere, and I wish I could fix it. And I'm gonna do better going forward. Think about how much good that would do you, right? How that would. It wouldn't fix everything, but it would go a long way, right? Same thing on both sides. So as damage control, you're just going to go back and damage control, ask for some grace, because they'll probably give it to you because they probably need some grace. And then both of you move forward in the right direction. And there are some really good videos on this channel about what to do in a relapse situation. And there's videos for the person who has addiction and for the family member. So might be good for both of you. Odaly Boo says Amber. Should I let them come home early? That's almost always a bad idea. What's early? Have they been there? They've been there 70 days and they're supposed to stay 90 or they've been there five days and they're supposed to stay 40. So what does early mean? Because that makes a big difference. Because like I said, the time thing is very, very important. And why do they want to come home early? There's. If you want a blanket answer, probably not 99% of situations, the answer to that would be it would be a bad idea. There are some situations where I might can see it in. Those situations are usually like, someone's been there a long time. They actually have made a lot of progress. And at some point you get kind of like, it's like diminishing returns. And I have seen that and I've been like, yeah, I think maybe this person needs to move to the next phase, to the next level. But most of the time, wanting to leave early is not the greatest sign. S says Amber. My loved one is definitely doing progressively better. Hey, that's good. From drinking heavily every day a year ago, he is now down to one or two times a month. That is significantly better. Great. Every time he drinks now, he promises it's his last time and he couldn't control himself since two months. How do I approach this? Is there anything I can do to help? He becomes extremely irritable and lethargic too. Trustee. Does he become irritable and lethargic like just before and it's like a relapse warning sign or that's what happens after the fact. And when he says he can't control himself, what does that, what does that mean? Is there certain trigger? Like what? There's just a little bit more information. I think I could give you the best answer. But overall I think what you do is you just don't jump on the relapse train with him. And when you don't jump back on the relapse train with them, they get off of it pretty quick. Or the roller coaster is what I call it. Don't get on the roller coaster with them and they'll get off quicker. So even if your loved one relapses, you don't relapse. And a lot of times it'll be short lived if you jump on there. And what I mean by jumping on there is lose your mind, go crazy, do all the things that you used to do that weren't helpful. And I know sristy. You know this. I'm just talking because other people need to hear it too. They're just going to stay on there longer because they're going to go further back in denial. They're going to be resentful, they're going to be focused on the resentment and they're not going to learn their lesson and you're slowing it down. So your job is to not get on the relapse train with them. Frankenila Am I saying that right? I don't know how to say that. When I finally learned to step back and let them suffer the consequence of their addiction and stop saving them, I let them graduate from fun with problems to only problems. They got motivated. I love it. Love it, love it, love it. Spot on. The formula is natural consequences. Not, not your consequences. Those are punishments. Not you take something from them or, or take a privilege or for something. Those are punishments. Whatever the natural world does, you let that happen and, and you, and you resist with all your might jumping in there and trying to instigate it by playing a bad guy. And they figure it out. Right. I love how you said from fun with problems to only problems. Right. It becomes less and less fun and more and more problems and eventually people see it. That's right. Tracy says overall he has become lethargic, not interested in worker chores, lost control, too many things built up, like maybe a fight with me, tired because of work, driving, etc, and then he ends up drinking. Okay, so it sounds to me like what's happening is he's, he's doing the best he can. He's using willpower. But maybe he's, he's not yet figured out how to solve a certain problem in his life. Maybe he's in a bad job or, I don't know, maybe he just hasn't figured out good stress management. But maybe there's, there's some kind of emotional coping here and it could just be that he's like, has like real depression or something and maybe that needs to be addressed. But it sounds like it's, it's, it's an emotional trigger more than like an external trigger. Married a Long Time says, is there a way to tell the difference between the brain malfunctioning versus the long term drinking? Like when he uses the stove and burns the pot to the point it is destroyed? No. Because when someone is in long term addiction their brain isn't functioning. So when someone's actively using, their brain is just not going to be functioning and there's not really a way to tell the difference unless the person gets completely sober and then they're still not functioning properly. Then you can tell the difference that maybe there's some kind of either other damage, something else that's a problem not related to the substance use or a problem that's developed because of the long term substance use. But when they're actively using, I think it's very difficult to tell, especially if it's alcohol or like any kind of central nervous system depressant because a lot of times they don't remember and they have all these memory problems and they might really non rational decisions like what you're talking about with the stove. And that's very, very common when someone is messed up. So it's hard to tell the difference. You got to get them sober, I think, to tell the difference. All right, guys, we are at the end of our time for today. You guys as always were awesome. Thank you for those of you who showed up live and thank you for those of you who showed up on the replay. Be sure and post your questions and join the conversation. I definitely want to hear your experiences with this topic. And don't forget there are resources in the description if you're looking for some coaching or you want to figure out how to get your loved one out of the denial. It's all down there. And I will see you guys next Thursday at 1 Eastern. Bye everybody.