The Worst Case Of Family Denial EVER! 😮🤐

You are going to hear some stories about the worst type of family denial you have ever heard. Yes, that's right. It's not just addicts and alcoholics who can be in denial. Family members can be in denial. And from my experience, I feel like that's, like, worse. And we have Campbell, our family recovery expert, here to talk to us about family denial. She's going to tell some stories, and then she's going to also help us understand why it happens, what's going on, what to do about it, and give you a lot of good, helpful advice, too. All right, Campbell, tell. Tell us some stories. Have you seen this before? Have you run across it?

I have seen it and lived it, so, yes. But let me. Let me start by sort of explaining, like, how this concept of what we're talking about today came up is I go to Pure Bar to work out, and I bought this pair of socks last week, and they are flags, and this is what they look like. But when you put them on your feet, the flag is upside down so very. I didn't notice that till, like, the second day. And I was like, oh, my God, these socks are just, like, not right. Like, I cannot handle this.

Wait, let me interrupt. Let me interrupt and tell everybody here, those of you who don't understand Campbell, like, if you knew Campbell, you would know. Like, this is, like, the worst crime ever. Like, this cannot happen. It's not. I'm super messing up the visual. She's super visual. Totally distracted me from distressed.

I'm looking in the mirror and, like. And, like, clearly distressed. And the girl next to me is like, what are you doing? Just like, I bought these socks, and they're just wrong, and I just can't handle it. And I. I warn them I can't return them. And she was like, well, what would happen if you, like, turned your foot and looked at it in the mirror? So I was like, I don't know. So I did that. And then there's the flag, the right way. So I was like, I feel so much better. Like, this is. This is good. I feel solid. And she was like, yes, smoke and mirrors. And I was like, right. And she was like, but isn't it all? And so then I started thinking about parents and what we do, which is smoke and mirror ourselves. And the definition of smoke and mirrors is something intended to disguise or draw away from an often embarrassing or unpleasant issue which defines addiction. So I started listening for, like, people I'm talking to myself, like, sort of thinking about it, and it is just amazing what level of denial and how much smoke and mirrors people do. Like, I have. I have someone I just talked to, and they were telling me that their. Their loved one has lost all this weight and bruising all over arms and legs. And I said, well, it sounds to me like, you know, you've got a significant substance problem going on. They were like, no, I think it's her Thyro. And I was like, I don't think so. I wish it were, but yeah. And. Or my child needs Adderall because they're studying for a huge national test, and the Adderall will help them, but after that, I'm sure they won't use it anymore. Just, you know, completely in denial. The kid has an Adderall problem. You know, we. We did it, you know, for a long time with stories that people call and say, hey, you know, your child was here earlier, and now we're missing, you know, a bottle of rum. And I'd be like, well, Neil doesn't drink rum, so I am sure he didn't take that rum. Like, why would. He's a 15. Why would he take rum? Just completely, like, not even thinking maybe he did.

You're probably thinking, why are you calling me?

Why are you calling me?

Yeah, I don't know you.

So parents do this all the time. And we do it because, first of all, they're doing it to us, like Amber said. So. So we're doing it back, but we're doing it also a lot of times in family systems, like, with, like, the mom will think we have a problem. Like, I was just knew we had a problem, didn't know it was drugs, but I knew we had a problem. And my husband was like, boys will be boys. Calm down. You're just kind of, like, insane. And so then the smoke and mirrors, like, he would jump up his game and really do smoke and mirrors because he did not like the fact that I was sort of flashlighting that we have a problem. So he would spin it or actually hide it. Like, you stop telling me if somebody called or something happened.

So it's kind of like you see the signs and symptoms. They're like, right, super clear in front of your face, but it's easy to rationalize it away. It's easy to make an excuse for why that one thing is there, which on some level is true. But when you back up and you look at the big picture, all of that put together is a pretty clear answers. And it's the same thing that people with substance abuse problems do, right? They know these bad Things are happening to them, but they have an excuse for every bad thing that happened. I only got that DUI because, well, this one bad thing happened because. Well, that was only because I was dating that crazy girl, you know? And so it's like they want to, like, excuse away every little incident instead of, like, being honest and backing up, looking at the whole picture.

And oftentimes, too, with addiction for what we see is it'll coincide with, like, just normal teenage withdrawal. Pull away angst. Anyway, so you write that off. We wrote that off for a year. It's just like he's had a bad year. All we've had some deaths, like, this has been a terrible year. Poor kid. And no, it had nothing to do with that.

Right, right. And even if it's not a teenager, it can be like. It can be like a grown person, you know, it's like, well, they have a new job, lost their best friend. They. Yeah, there's always kind of a reason that you can make. But like I said before, it's about backing up and looking at the big picture. Can you really explain it all the way just because of that?

No, you can't. But I think it's hard to see the full picture just because it's like, the picture gets. It's tiny, and then it gets bigger, and it gets bigger, and it gets bigger, but you're in the picture or living in it. So you don't see the exponential.

Right.

Growth until it's so big that you're like, okay, something is terribly wrong, definitely.

And why do you think. Why do you think it happens? So you're kind of telling us how it happens, which is you're kind of in the middle of it, and it's hard to see clearly when you're in the middle of the storm.

You don't want to see it.

You don't want to see it.

You don't want to see it because you're.

You're scared of what it means if it is that. Because if it is that, that's super scary. And I don't know what to do. And I'm not sure if it can be fixed. It's a scary thought, even if you.

Don'T think of what it could be. I mean, because you remember, I didn't think addiction. I thought all kinds of other things, but no matter what it was, I didn't want what was happening to happen, no matter what the reason was.

Right.

But, yeah, it's.

I think you've probably heard me tell this story. I told it. It's been a long time. But when I. This was years and years ago when I ran an intensive outpatient program at a facility, A parent that was already a parent of a kid in the program had referred a friend to call me about her son or something. And the thing with it was, is I already knew about the son because I'd already heard about him from these other, like, 15 kids in my group who'd been buying drugs from, like. And this kid was like. This kid was, like, above and beyond where the kids I was seeing was, because they were getting it from him. And I knew that, but I couldn't say that. Well, this mom calls me, and she asked me for some know, what do I do? My friend told me to call you, and I said, well, it. And I just listened to her and I said, it sounds like maybe there's, like, you know, this kind of problem going on. And in fact, I think it's probably a pretty big problem. I think you should, like, be looking at treatment. I don't even think you should send them over here to me. You should, like, send them, like, big boy treatment. And I didn't hear back from her. And then, like, a few weeks later, one of the mom that. That gave her my number stopped me, and she said, did you hear about what happened? I don't even know her name, like, Debbie or whatever. And I was like, no. And she's like, debbie sent her son away to some kind of screening thing because a hundred thousand dollars because she's sure he has a vitamin deficiency, and that's what it's all about. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Because we hear stories like that all the time. And on one hand, you really can feel compassion for the person, but on the other hand, it's frustrating because it's like, wow, like, you're spending all that money, like, you're down the wrong path. And it's just. How do you keep from being frustrated with parents when you see them just so far off? Like, because I get frustrated with addicts and alcoholics. I'm like, can you not see this? Like, so you have to get frustrated with the pan families.

I just recognize that, you know, I remember myself, and I just recognize that their heart cannot tolerate what I'm telling them. And so we need to stop telling them and let them do it. Like, if you want to go have your child's thyroid tested, I think that's a. That's what you need to do. I don't think that's what it is, but I hope it is, Right. So you just sort of have to let them exhaust themselves. It's kind of like fishing, you know, like deep sea fishing, when you get the big whatever marlin on your line and then trying to get it, but it's too strong. So you have to let it go back out and get tired, and then you can try to bring it in, and then you have to let it get tired. That's sort of how I look at my job, is I just have to let them get tired.

Man, that's a great metaphor, because that's exactly the exact parallel thing that I do with the person who's having an addiction problem who's going through that process. Well, maybe it's just because X, Y, and Z. And you have to sort of let people go through that process. Right. Of figuring that out.

And I think it's such a big pill to swallow that if you shove it, they're not gonna take it. It's too painful. Like, I'll never forget literally knowing we had this problem but still thinking a week in detox would fix it. And then that counselor whose name I can never remember because I blocked it out.

It's Brian.

You've told me Brian said your son is a drug addict. And he is a really hardcore drug addict. And I remember literally thinking, who's he talking to? And it was clearly me and Frank sitting in front of him. No, we just have a little problem. It's gonna be all fine here at the end of the week.

Right. But one of the things that a lot of families run into is, is maybe you're dealing with a set of parents or you're dealing with siblings or your. Or whatever family members. And one of the family members gets it and one of them doesn't. And that is usually the case. That's almost always the case.

Almost us. Almost always the case. And it's usually the mom who's got the spidey sense and the dad who's in denial. Not always, but usually.

Yeah. When it. When it comes to parents, and I have seen it too, where it's like. Especially if the kids are older, like the sibling gets it, but the parents don't. Or, you know, you. You can see it every different which way. But almost always there's somebody or some people that get it and some people that don't. And then the whole family gets tied up in arguing with each other about what's really happening and what should be done about it. And that slows down the process.

Yeah. And what I. What I. I remember you Telling me this, even, like, let that person figure it out. Stop pointing it out, stop arguing about it. Just tap out as much as you possibly can, which is really hard to do because you're living in it. Right, but it's kind of like the fish metaphor. Just let them get tired of. Stop handling it and let them handle it. And then they'll get tired of it.

Right? Because one of the things that's probably happening behind the scenes is the addictive person is telling the family member that's in denial. They're telling that family member that it's you, that's crazy, and that you're controlling and that you're mean and you're naggy and you're never happy and all this stuff. And then when you keep coming at this other family member, trying to get them to see it, it's almost like you're proving their case for them.

Right?

And it makes them further in denial because then they're like, I know, right? She is crazy. You know, like, it makes it worse. Yeah. Yeah. So you have to just let it show itself. What if it gets to the point of, like, you can't take anymore, or life and death? Or, like, is there. What do you. What can you do? Is there anything you can do?

No, I mean, there's really nothing you can do. I mean, if it's life and death, obviously you could do something. Like, I remember you saying, hey, you know, the word on the street is, you know, he's using a ton. Like, could you guys think about doing a pickup order? And we sort of said, if he's not home by tomorrow, that's what we'll do. But that's pretty dire. And that only buys you, what, 72 hours in most states? So usually that doesn't work because the kid just gets in, or the person just gets in. In the ER and says, I'm totally fine.

I don't.

My mother's crazy. Like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. I'm fine. And then they let him go. So I think you just have to, like, that's where you sort of like, find somebody who understands it. Go to. To a meeting. Find a support group for parents, like, somebody who you can talk to about.

It, somebody who does get it until.

It plays out enough for the you to leverage the person into treatment.

I was talking to somebody yesterday whose husband was, like, an addict, but functional, which we see a lot of. And she was just like, oh, my gosh. I'm just so upset because you. You believe me, and you get it. And no one else believes them because they're, you know, important in the community. And no one else knows and will even believe her if she tries to say it. And it's just so frustrating for her being the only one that can say it.

I think that depends on sort of where you catch it. Like, I was just seeing some people who've got a younger kid and, you know, we had this debate in family group all the time, is it, is it worse to be the parent who finds out my kid is doing heroin? Oh my God. Or is it worse to find out my kid has a pretty significant weed problem, but they're only 16 or 15. And I think it's, I think it's that because you just have to. It's just going to be a long road until the kid either gets a big enough problem or gets in enough trouble or gets that, I need help. And it's, it's can be a year, year and a half. And that's like, if the parent can.

Recognize it early on, it's painful because it has to get to a certain point before you can even do anything with it.

And, and no one's going to believe you at that point because your kid is still probably going to school and maybe even Sunday school and still hanging out with his friends. And so you really are alone in that. And then that's just that, that grief of like, what's happening and no one hears me.

Exactly. All right, Kimball, we have a bunch of people watching. Are you okay with taking a couple of questions if there are some?

Sure.

Okay, let's see here. Macy says people get so freaked out about a person overdosing, etc, when in reality that comes off so badly. Anything can be an addiction. Let me what is Macy trying to say? People get so forget about a person overdosing when in reality that comes also badly. I will say this. I'm not sure exactly what Macy's trying to say, but when you have a loved one who overdoses, you think in your mind, like, this is the wake up call, like they're going to get it. And the most frustrating thing is it overdoses. Rarely is the thing, as crazy as that sounds, because most time they don't remember it. You remember it if you were there and it was like traumatic and it was like the scariest thing and the ambulance comes in all this and the person doesn't even remember it. And so you think this is going to be it. And it rarely is it, which is just like mind blowing.

Yeah. But then those parents Become so dysregulated by that, which of course they would. And then they're like on hyper. Just. They're. They can't even like chew their food. They're so upset.

Right? Yeah. Because you, you get those, like, PTSD type symptoms.

Right. But I think what Macy was saying was, like, it doesn't have to be drugs to be an addiction and be problematic. And she's right. And I always say to people, like, look, I don't care if it's lifesavers. Your behavior, your life is falling apart. So it doesn't matter if it's weed or Xanax or bananas. Like, whatever it is you're so focused on is becoming hugely problematic.

Right, yeah, that makes sense. So it's kind of like she's saying, like, sometimes what will keep people in denial is like, well, it's not heroin. Like, it's just this, it's just that. And they, they want to minimize it instead of taking it, taking it serious.

Oh, yeah.

I usually say all addictions will take you to the bottom. Some just take you faster than others. That's it. Some just have a faster track. That's all.

Yep.

Let's see here. We have a lot of people.

People want to buy my socks.

Anthony says he overdosed twice. He's so thankful he's on supplicate and is working. I've had a couple of really good cases where that's been pretty effective, actually. I don't even know that I told you this, but there was a case recently that we worked on where the person was on that and just like we talked about before, they. They were able to come off of that, like just took it for a year or two and then just came off. That was it. Like it's done. It's been off for a long time. Which is like, amazing. Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, here's a good one. Terraces. Denial dies in inches, not miles at a time, if you're lucky. Education is happening in feet at the same time. I love that.

That's awesome.

That's wise advice. And that's another good metaphor. Right?

That is a really good point. And I think that's what, you know, most of my job is, is education of.

Right.

What is happening, why it's happening, what's going to happen next. Be prepared. But if your education is lagging behind, that's when. That's when it gets ugly.

Right. And so I just, I love what Tara's saying here because she's saying it happens coming out of denial. Happens a little at a Time. The way I've always. The metaphor I use is like onions, like the layers. And so it's like layer one is, you know, do I have a problem at all? Layer two is, okay, I have problem, but it's not that bad. Layer three is like, what's it going to take to deal with this problem? And so a little bit comes and a little bit comes at a time. And a lot of that's because that's like you said earlier, that's as much as the person can handle. You know, defense mechanisms are there for a reason. Oh yeah.

I mean we're doing exactly what the addict is doing because we're just rationalizing, justifying, coming up with excuses to make ourselves feel better. Just like the socks in the mirror made me feel better. Like it didn't change the fact that the socks are poorly made, but it made me feel better. And that's what we do constantly as that's the family members of the, of the person struggling.

Right.

And they're making themselves feel better with their substance.

That's right. Saska says my high functioning alcoholic husband is now sucking marijuana secretively in the garden with our 19 year old son. I honestly don't know what to do. Weed is legal in South Africa where I am. Oh my gosh.

Oh my God.

It's not the secretly using it in the garden. It's like with the 19 year old son. It's with the 19 showing that too.

Yeah, we see it more than I care to admit.

We've seen that with like young adults, teenagers and college students that are actually in treatment for addiction and still one of the parents is doing stuff like that. Like we've seen that quite a bit. Yeah. Campbell, is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have. Anything else you had on this topic?

I think we talked about why we do it. The only other thing would be what it does, which is just delay the solution and. But sometimes that's just what has to happen so that the problem just gets so ugly that we can't continue to stay in denial. But it does delay it, what we're doing.

It sort of slows down the process. Yeah, exactly.

We did talk a little bit, Amber, about like what happens if your spouse is on the different page than you. And that is to sort of stop fighting it and let them do it, which is also going to delay it. But you've got to realize like, like Frank and I fought all the time about this and he just finally was like, I'm just gonna stop talking about it. I'm just gonna stop pointing it out. I'm gonna just stop. And then eventually he's like, do you think we have a problem? I was like, no.

You know, another situation where that happens a ton. The same thing that you're talking about is with spouses. One of the spouses has the problem, but the parent in law. So the parent of that one that has a problem with will not believe it. So this spouse over here that's seeing it is like, you know, they're out of control. This is happening. And they're trying to, like, get the rest of the family to come on board and help, but the parent just can't see it. And then that spouse is left feeling just totally by themselves out there trying to deal with it.

Yep. And sometimes that parent will even, like, let their child, their adult child with the problem, like, come live with them. And then they really team up against the spouse that believes there's a problem. And I've seen that, like, horribly.

Yeah. But guess what happens then it turns on that parent. Eventually they will see it and it will bite them. And a lot of times that's like, the best thing to do is to let it. Let them get that sort of front row seat to it.

Although I do have. I do have a client that the parents are the problem. Like, they keep supplying money and their, their adult son is not thriving and doesn't feel good about himself. And they literally came in after they had brought him back from treatment and he was drinking again. They're like, well, why is he drinking? I'm like, because you keep giving him money. And the mom just said, well, I'm never going to change that. And I said, well, then I guess I would stop sending him to treatment. So.

Right.

Sometimes they just, they don't care.

Yeah. Is that. Well, it's that type of. Now it's like the, they know that. That's the kind of denial. It's like they know the person has a problem, but they're in denial about what it's going to take to fix the problem.

Right.

And so those are those layers that come, that come in there, and that's.

Such an entrenched, intuitive parenting, is to not take a look at what my parenting might be contributing. And, and they just can't change. I mean, these, these are older parents.

Obviously, and they're stuck. I've seen that with grandparents too. Right. We've seen that a lot. Like, the parents get it, but the grandparents don't get it. And then that creates a dynamic.

The grandparents are sliding money on the side and saying all kinds of things. Yeah.

And how that usually ends is the kid goes to stay with the grandparent, gets enabled for a while, and then it bites the grandparents. That's pretty much what happens, right? Yes. And mirrors. And I did a video a while back. There's actually a really good book called Smoke and Mirrors, if any of you guys want to get it. And it's about all the tricks and manipulations that the addictive person does to keep the family in denial. Right. So it's like Campbell's talking about the tricks we play on ourselves, but that is definitely gasolined by the. The manipulation, the gaslighting, all that stuff that's coming from over there. They're definitely helping us along with staying in denial.

Yeah.

And so if you want to learn more about that, I'll put that video up here for you next, and you can get the book off Amazon. It's actually. It's not very big. It's a quick read, but super good. All right, thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.

Bye, guys.