This Couple Overcame Addiction Using Suboxone and Methadone!

All right, everyone, you guys are in for a big treat because we have not just one guest today, but two guests today who are going to share with you a story that I literally would have told you was impossible myself. In fact, I'm pretty sure I have told people that this is impossible. So we have found a couple. They are Emma and Gary. And the very special thing about them is they both used medication assisted treatment to conquer addiction to opioids. One of them used Suboxone and one of them used methadone. And not only did they both use medication assisted treatment to come off of opioids, but they did it while a couple. They did it at the same time. And they're still alive and haven't even divorced yet. Can you believe it? Sounds impossible, doesn't it? All right, let's meet them, let's hear how they pulled this off and see what kind of advice they have for us or for anyone in this situation who's trying to get on the other side of it. All right, so Emma, we'll start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about you, how sort of how you progressed into opioid addiction, Just sort of the beginnings of it. And then we'll hear from Gary and hear how he sort of started into it. And then we'll make y' all stories come together maybe and figure out your journey together.

So I started using opiates when I was 14, kind of on and off again. And when I was probably 2,23, I'd worked up to injecting them. And from all their. It's all just downhill from there. And I was about 32 when I got on Suboxone.

Okay. And so one of the things that I tell families a lot, Emma, is that opioid addiction is hard to detect, especially the first few years. Did anyone around you know that that was going on? Because you started so young and so early.

So when I was that young, it was more of just like a weekend thing here and there, so nobody noticed. And when, when it was progressed into injecting even, I'd say that I did a pretty good job of hiding it from everybody.

Okay. And Gary, what about you? What's the beginning of your story? How did for you?

I had a surgery on my ear here I had to have in Halifax, as we would, eight hour surgery. I had a torn eardrum and a cyst that had to be taken in. So when I got off the surgery back, they put me on Dilaudids prescription, ran for a few months and it just picked up from there never stopped.

Wow.

Going on, it was about a seven year stretch.

How, how old were you when you had the surgery?

30, 36.

Okay. So your stories of how you got into this are really different. That's, that's also interesting. Were you, did you have any substance abuse issues at all before the surgery? Like even with anything else?

I drank probably more than I needed to, but I drank my whole life since I was probably 16 and first other drugs I tried pretty much everything, but regularly never became a problem. When I ended up on the opioids though, kind of silver lining, I guess they don't go well with drinking. So I actually quit drinking and I haven't, I haven't drank in 10 years now. Eight years now. As you had mentioned, hiding it from people. Well, I held down a full time job for five years while in. Same thing as injecting and hiding from pretty much everybody. So it just became a part of life.

And explain to people who don't understand how that can even happen. Explain how you can hide it for so long.

I'm good around people. I've always had jobs and customer service.

What I was gonna say I was fusing together, kind of like covered each other's lives and.

And also what I did is I guess you did the same thing as I ended up isolating myself from all my friends. I didn't see any of my friends. My family members cut off all ties. So it made it easier to hide when you're not hanging around with people. And also didn't want to bring that, bring them into that part of my life. So that made it easier, I think was just isolating ourselves, being codependent and we just kind of kept to ourselves and isolated ourselves from everyone for about four years.

Did it affect your work performance?

My work performance?

Yeah.

I mean it was totally dependent. My whole day depended on it. Right. Like if I got up in the morning, we didn't have something, I'm going to go to work sick and I'm going to be there sick until, you know, until I'm able to get that.

And it was more of a support thing where I would make sure I could bring it to him or we could meet up and that type of thing. Like, I don't think you would have.

Been able to do it as long.

If I hadn't been.

But my, as far as my performance, I mean, I worked alongside a guy for three years. No one ever knew anything. I would just do it. It was hard on my body, hated it, but I would just do it. And if I got a quiet moment to myself, then I'd maybe go that side and just hide it until the moment I could. It's. They had choice. I mean, I was the only one working at the time, so it wasn't really an option.

Okay, now I'm trying to follow the storyline here. Right. Like, it's a flowchart in my head. So, Emma, you were using from really young. Started out, just occasionally escalated. And then, Gary, you didn't start using until you're 35. Where in the stories connect and collide.

I got on the medication.

So when he started using, of course I was the connection. I was going through a hard, actually medically, like, with a medical issue myself. So it was just like the perfect excuse to let things get really out of hand.

And then that was the one we started using together and just went on from there.

So when you met. When the two of you met, were. Were you both already using at that point?

I had never touched it.

Okay. And I wasn't using at that time. Like I said, it was just on and off.

That type of. That type of was never my thing. I didn't like that type of thing. So I had never touched it really, until that surgery. I had gotten it. So it was never an issue with me before.

But when we met, we were okay with, like, we would drink a lot together and stuff like that, or use other drugs like on the week and stuff like that together. Regional type thing.

Okay. So, Gary, when you met Emma, she wasn't using opioids at the time, but she had sort of a history of on and off use of opioids. Did you know that or you didn't know that?

Not in the beginning, but she told me fairly soon. Fairly soon. So it didn't. It didn't seem to both me. It was in her past. And I mean, with my past, I had no reason to judge anybody, so. And at that time, like I said, she wasn't using. And, you know, if that surgery had to come up, who knows, because it wasn't something we were. We were doing together at the time until that happened.

Okay, then, Emma, you said you had a medical problem at some point too. That's when yours started flaring up. When did that start happening?

Well, pretty. Almost at the same time that he had had his surgery. I just had, actually. So I had like an undiagnosed Lyme disease, though I had been having issues for quite a while that I was dealing with. It was getting more serious around the time that he had his ear surgery. So it again was just kind of like an excuse where I was. An excuse myself, where I was saying like, I'm going through a hard time and the opiates are around and it was just a perfect storm.

The cyst in your brain, it advised you the. It was cancer or not. So there was a period where she didn't know if she had brain cancer or not.

Yeah, I thought that I might have. So that's really. I was just looking for an excuse for anything really.

And so. Well, who decided that they didn't want to do it anymore? First?

We both, we both knew we need to stop for a long time before we did.

We made it tense not actually getting help on medication. I thought I could do it myself. I did everything else myself. The algorithm. I just kicked ass. You know, I couldn't do it myself. So we had to go ask for help.

But I don't think either one of us came to the other. We need to quit. Or it was just collective. We knew like, and we wanted to quit for years before we actually though.

But as far as the clinic, she did go in before.

Oh, as far as.

Yeah.

So as far as like who actually went to made the first step? I guess that was me and clinic and got on it first a couple of days before.

Okay, so. So Emma, you were the first one that got on medication, assisted treatment. But you guys had. Had attempts where you both tried to stop lots of times before that?

Yes, many times.

Okay.

Because we thought we could just do it. You know, you get our taper. I even had done up like a little schedule of like our own taper to do, but yeah, that didn't work.

By the time you get to day two, they're all stuck over at that point.

Tell us why that doesn't work. Like, I understand why it doesn't work, but there's probably people watching this video where it was. It would be like, well, if you're going to do medication assisted treatment and taper, why can't you just taper already? They're wondering that, especially family members. So explain that to us.

Yeah, that's a good. So part of it is just um. It's so much long of a process than you would think. It's going to be like my taper due up for like a week or two. But in reality, if you were going to do that with like the pills, it would be a month. It should be a month long thing. And you just as a drug addict, you don't have the self control to have, you know, a bunch of pills around and actually allot them out to yourself in that way. It's just. I'm sure it's neat. I'm sure I don't know any drug addicts that could do that. Right.

And I. That's something that a lot of the people that we see, they try to do with different drug addictions. Right? But that's the whole nature of addiction. Means I don't manage it well. Right. Addiction means I can't ration it out. And so it kind of goes against the whole thing. Right. Just doesn't. Doesn't work. Okay, what's the difference between doing it that way and then doing it with, like, the Suboxone or the methadone? What. How's that different?

With me, the other way was more the tapering down. I had never been experienced with that. You know, I'd never worked in that industry. So with me, it was just ignorance. I thought I could do it, and I just kept saying, oh, I could do this. I can do this, I can do this. Until one day I was like, well.

I can't.

Just basically thinking I could beat this on my own because I had with everything else. But this got too hard. So we went to the methadone. And methadone was. It was. It was. I think it was at 175 to begin with.

Just like, once you get on it, just being able to sleep through the.

Night, though, you know, sleep through the night was a gift. Like when you first take it and you wake up the next day, you got a full night's sleep. It was unbelievable. So it was a little bit different with the. With the pills when you died, tap, you're waking up every day sick. You got responsibilities. It's a whole, whole different ball game, really.

The first morning that, like, we weren't sick together, we were just like, almost couldn't believe it. We were almost giddy because we were like, can you believe they're like, not saying, don't have to go run around.

And look for something?

Like, it was unbelievable.

It was just been the first time in years. And it was just. That was the huge, you know, differences is just. And then, you know, you can go.

It's there.

That's the big thing. Sometimes you do it the other way. You got to find that stuff. And if it's not around, your list isn't. Your tip is not going to work. You know, this is there, it's there on a daily basis. You don't have to go hunt for it. You don't have to stress for it, people are there, they're going to give it to you. Big difference mentally, right.

And I'm so glad you said that because for those of you don't know, the medication assisted treatment medicines, both of them, whether it's the Suboxone or the methadone, they're just longer lasting than either pain pills or heroin or anything you're going to get naturally. When you're doing those, you're like on this three to four to five hour cycle, right. Like literally every so many hours you're sick again. And so you can't manage your life because you're on this treadmill, right? Four hours, okay.

It's all day. It's wake up in the morning to go to work and then when you do that, you're thinking, well I need that for the afternoon. And then it's well, I need that for nighttime or I'm not going to sleep. It's the control.

So your whole life revolves around it with two more of a. Like you said, it's such a short term. Your whole life revolves around if you've got something you need to plan on where you're getting next and stuff like that. Whereas once, as soon as you get on the treatment, you know that you can go every day or, or if you've got your medication or whatever so you don't have to psychologically, it's not.

As probably the number one thing. I know we're in Canada, I don't know. Same thing. The cost, methadone is covered. You're going to come up with that every day. If you're doing, you got to come up with money. You're not to come up with money.

For this or even if you're paying for it out of your pocket, I mean, it's still not, it's still going to be such a fraction of your cost, what you're getting.

Exactly. So. So there's several things about it that helped you guys break the cycle. One is it was longer lasting and not only that, but you didn't have to figure out where you were going to get it again, right? Because you, you had a plan for that. So that allows you to kind start your life back, right? It allows you to do regular life stuff like go to work and parenting or go to class or whatever it is that you're doing. You can focus on something else because you, you're kind of off the treadmill and then also the money, right? You guys are saying, yeah, yeah.

So these people you're getting from, they know you need it. Eventually they get manipulated by the name, you know what they want.

So, yeah, there's the whole manipulation or you're relying on somebody else who obviously, who doesn't really have your best interest at heart, obviously. And there's all that too. It's just so many layers of complicated problems.

A lot of different reasons why it was a lot better.

It takes the desperation level down, right. So that you can think clearly enough to figure out the next step. I would guess right with that.

Once I got off that treadmill and I started meditating.

Yeah.

Which made a big difference in my life. And at that point it was all about control. That had nothing to do with the treadmill anymore. I'm not the person likes to be in control. I don't know if that's a good thing. But just the way I am and the life, the whole five years to the pills, I had no control over my life. Nothing was good, but I still had no control. I had to go there every day. I couldn't travel. I didn't have it. I'd switch it. So the big thing is me is I want to control my life back. So once I got that past that treadmill, I was like a straight focus.

You could kind of like taste, see what it would be like if you're. It's so much better just on the methadone. So then we could kind of see the light of. It would be so much better though, like for people that need to stay on it. I mean, that's fine, but.

But that was the difference to me with getting off the treadmill. Then I was just focused. That was the next step. You said the next step. That was it for me, the control of my life back.

So one of, one of the things that they're saying, you guys, is that not only did they get on the medication, assisted treatment, but their plan, some people get on it and stay on it, they maintain on it. It's like a maintenance. But you guys got on it with the intention of coming off of it, is what you're saying.

Well, I got a point where I was. I said to my pharmacist, I said, well, we were going in. They've given us caries for coke. And what happened? And they started giving us carries. They want people coming into pharmacy. So one day we show up to get the carriers and they were like, the carries are done. You have to come in every day. No, not. So I was like traveling from Stanley every day.

So you had to do the urine screens every week if you were going to get Caries. And we hadn't been doing that because of COVID So we just kind of got caught in a you have to come in every day type thing, which was drive for us. So I guess that's what kicked off the let's get off it right now type thing. But even when we started off on it, it was kind of like a. We thought we could. So had a very lofty goal of being off it in, like, a few months or something like that. That was crazy. That wasn't gonna work at all. But that was always our goal was because we knew a lot of people that had been on it for, like, I know it's been on for 15 years or whatever. I mean, it's better than using pills for heroin or whatever, for sure, if that's your two choices. But, yeah.

So we don't know anybody that's got.

And I just. I just was like, I don't want to be like that and be on it in 15 years from now, and it'd still be running my life. So we had always planned to just use it as a little like a gap bridge for the gap, but it took us quite a bit more than we had anticipated.

So hold on one second, because you guys are saying some really important things there. There's, like. There's several things you guys are saying. I really want to emphasize one thing. Well, first, I want to. Because you. You're using the term carry, and not everyone knows what that means. What they're talking about is, in United States, it's this way with methadone, but not usually with Suboxone, but you gu in Canada. And so the way it works is you have to show up every morning at the place where you get it to get your dose for the day. Right. And so it's not as much chaos as when you're trying to get every four hours and you don't know where you're going to get it, but it still ties you to the place every single day, and there's no missing. And so. Which is rough. And what you guys are saying is when Covid started, they would give you caries, which means they would give you more than one day at a time, so you didn't have to go every day. I just want to make sure everyone understands that. And so we can follow. Right. And you have to once a week. Okay. Usually you kind of have to work up to that in the United States. Like, if you're on methadone, if you go long enough, you're compliant, you pass all your Drug test, stuff like that, they'll, they'll give you like a weekend carry and then, and then if you do really give it that, they'll, they'll do a week or something like that. In Canada, you both had to do that for Suboxone and methadone. Even though you guys were getting two different things, you both had to show up every day.

So we probably, we could have done on the urine screens long enough to get like a, I think, I don't know, three or six months of clean urine screens you need. And then you can start to get a week at a time or a month of time. It just so happened that it lined up with the COVID for us that we started getting those before we normally.

Have and then they just, when they got taken away was kind of a last minute. So we didn't really know. So the daily.

It was really frustrating that we went from being, having a week at a time and then we had to go back to the day at a time. So it really, we were like, we're going to get off this.

That's when I started dropping 5 milligrams twice a week, like a really high amount right to the point where it ended. But I ended up getting pretty sick.

I was gonna say most people would have to probably.

I wouldn't recommend that. No, I'd recommend you keep it down a lot slower.

Okay.

I just got upset and frustrated. I had to keep coming in every day, so I wanted to end it as quick as I could.

So can you guys tell us the difference between Suboxone and methadone? And can you give us some kind of idea? Because you're, you're talking about, Gary, you're talking about dropping 5 milligrams. Give us some perspective on how that, what kind of milligrams you were on and, and, and how that was going down. Like, what's, what's the standard dose of Suboxone? What's the standard dose of methadone?

I could answer with the tapering down part, but.

So you started on 150, 175, 175 of. And I think that probably like a fairly normal. And when I started on Suboxone, I was on 36 milligrams. And I think that's probably a fairly standard dose for. I think those are probably pretty standard doses.

Okay.

Yeah. The difference between the two, you might be able.

Well, I was gonna say the like, as far as, from our perspective, I think I had an easier time on the Suboxone, especially When we started dropping and I thought the other good thing Suboxone was I didn't relapse once I was on the Suboxone. But if I had, it's kind of like an overdose prevention in there. Because previous, like before, any time I had done times of sobriety, that was when I overdosed in the past. Because you forget how much your tolerance goes down and stuff like that.

That.

So that's one of the huge positives to me. And like I said, when we started tapering, I seem to have a much easier time of it than he did. He's would have, like I said, we went faster than we should have, but he would have days where he was really sick and experiencing withdrawals almost as bad as we were.

I got 200 days in a row throughout every morning. So it was, it was hard on you for sure.

Wow.

Dropping much faster.

I just want you guys to hear that for two, 200 days in a row, right? That's why you don't hear many people that do this because, I mean, that's a long time to feel bad, right? Like, just tolerating that discomfort for that many days is like, wow.

I tell people, if you want to get off it, you're gonna have to go through some discomfort. It's not going to be comfortable. You're gonna have to accept that. It's, it's a, you know, it's a solution to one, but is this a stop gap to another?

You're gonna be sick every day anyway. But when you wake up sick every day and you're going to get pills, there' in sight, right? You're just, it's never going to get better. When you wake up sick every day and you're trying to come off of it, there is light at the end of tunnel. It might be a long tunnel, but there's light down there.

And the same with the doctor. Like, like I said, maybe if you don't, if you feel like you're condescending or whatever, not supportive, chances are, maybe they're not.

Don't give up. There's others out there. You'll find the right one.

I love that because it's like you, you feel bad enough physically feel bad enough, right? And even emotionally feel bad enough. I mean, it sucks having to go in there every day, right? Like, that can't be. That's not. Psychologically, that's no good either. And if you got someone that's talking down to you or treating you crappy, it's not going to help anything at all, right? Like you need some support because it's hard. It is hard. People I've only just so people understand how hard it is. Yeah. I only know a few people who have tapered off of Suboxone, like outpatient. And you're the second person I've met, Gary, that's tapered off of methadone. Only second. I've been doing this a long time. Right, right. That's right. The other guy I know was from Canada, too. Right. And. And I don't know if you guys have seen his video, but he got on a bike and rode across Canada. Come off methadone, Rode across Canada on a bike. I was like, crazy. Yeah.

I better not watch that. I would like to say that's amazing.

Yeah, that's super. Yeah, it is. And the thing that's super amazing about y' all story, not only did y' all do that, but you did it while still together. Tell us about that part. Like, the relationship part, while all happening. I mean, that. That right there just makes it ten times more unbelievable because usually one person is gonna, you know, their willpower is going to run out, they're going to want to cave, and then the other person caves, and then this person caves. It's just like back and forth, triggering each other. So how did y' all do that together?

Well, that's a good question, too, I think, for. So first, like I said, it had been years that we're, like, really sick and tired of being sick and tired and really, really wanted to stop. And it was really only the physical addiction that was keeping us there at and on. On the other hand, I think that we both decided for ourselves, like, I was doing this one way or another, you were doing it one way or another.

And it's basically the point that one of us was going to do it and the other one wasn't. Well, the other one wasn't going to be around.

Yeah.

See how we made the point to each other? So it was either we're going to do this and. Exactly. I think we were so codependent for so long, it helped, you know, if you're feeling that I could bounce something off her.

So it was good to have a friend there that knew you were going through. And on the other hand, I think we're both really competitive, and I want everybody to know that I'm still three days ahead of him.

That's so funny. Okay. All right. And so you guys were so determined on it. That was your number one priority.

I don't want to pretend. Yeah. I don't want to pretend to everybody. There wasn't rough times because there was fights. The emotional, you know, bad. You feel like when I wake up in the morning, I had draws so bad that I wasn't pleasant to be around. It's just the way I was. And so there was a lot of tough times. But I just don't want to pretend like it was smooth.

No.

But in the end.

But like I said, but like on the positive side, there was like, it was really good because nobody, like, nobody understands how hard it is. But at least we can look at each other and like, yeah, I know what you're going through.

There'd be times sometimes her father would ask me a question about, well, why is this? We just. You've never been there if you've never been there. It's hard for me to explain why. I mean, you know what I mean? Making these decisions over others.

Yeah.

Somebody that's been there. No talking. But I'm gonna.

So. So speaking of the fathers, did both of yalls families, what was the family reaction? Did your families know you have the addictions? Does your families know you did the medication assisted treatment? If so, like, how did they respond to that?

I don't have a lot of family left. I have my mom and like I lost both my sisters. My father died. When I say, but I hear that from them. My mother knows the treatment I went through.

She only said.

I told you nobody. No friends. Even when I was going through the treatment, I didn't want to tell anybody. I don't know, I was just embarrassed or ashamed by it. But I didn't want to let anybody to know. So right now, only my mother knows. And even my friends that I grew up as when I was 5 years old still don't know that I was on and off this stuff.

Wow.

I pretty much hid it from everybody.

My family did know and they were very supportive of us getting on the treatment for sure. Then they were very supportive.

Like it was easy with her family because she had been there before. They'd experienced that before with her.

There wasn't really like they knew that I had a problem, I guess. And I think yours is supposed to protect your mom. You didn't want to bring that extra burden on her.

And I just didn't want to bring that into people's lives. I just felt like I just keep it away from people.

It's the best though. It shouldn't have happened like this, but I basically rage told his mother that he was on methadone. It was the Best in the end. Like, I shouldn't have happened that way, but I think it was, you know.

Otherwise I might have not told anyone. Probably.

But it's easier when you're not trying to still hide that to all from your family and friends.

So, Emma, you said your family knew and they were fairly supportive. And no one really knew on Gary's side except your mom knew you had the problem, but didn't know you were on the treatment until Emma. Ra. You just say you rage. Told it. Emma, you got mad and said it. Is that what happened?

Problem? She didn't know about the problem. Oh, she's kind of. She had no idea I've been on that.

Gotcha. Okay. How long did it take each of you to. To taper? Now, Emma, I know you said you had your three days, so since you're winning the race, we'll let you say first.

So do you mean from the time that we started the taper until I was able to quit the Suboxone?

Yes. Huh.

Okay, so. So that was about two years, a little under two years.

Like a year and 10 months.

A year and nine months or something like that. I believe from this from when I started it until when I took my last dose.

And what advice yours was.

Mine was close.

What was that? Sorry, before we.

Because I didn't get to hear Gary's yet. Before we hear Gary's, though, what advice would you have for someone coming off of Suboxone? And before you answer, anyone watching this, we're not doctors. I'm not a doctor. They're not doctors. We're not giving you medical advice. We're just helping you understand. Emma. And Gary's explaining. So, Emma, tell us, what would you tell someone else who's either already going through it or thinking about going through it?

Well, that's a good question, too, because part of. I was going to say be ready for a long haul. And it's kind of like I felt like when I had it beat, there was still a lot more left. So I guess it's like a marathon, not a, you know, it's a long haul thing. At the same time, I don't want to be discouraging to people because at the same time, if somebody told me me that at the beginning that it's going to be years, a year's long journey, I might have been frustrated out of it. So.

Okay, so. So pace yourself and have reasonable expectations is what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm kind of. I hate to be pessimistic, but kind Of.

But you're not pessimistic because you did it right, which is pretty dang optimistic if you ask me. Okay, so. So, Gary, how long did it take you? And same question. What advice would you have for someone who's either already on medicine, methadone, or thinking about going that route?

Well, me, it was kind of two steps. Once I. Like I said, once they took the caries, that's when I. I've just been tapering for a long time. I didn't even taper. I just taking it every day and going with the medication. But once that happened, I just made a point out that I wasn't. And so I tapered down pretty fast. But I don't tell people if you're comfortable taking. Like I said, I know a lot of people who take it, take it every day. They're fine with that as part of.

Their life, and they're okay with that. It keeps them confusing.

That's if you want to. If you want to start getting off it, though, you're going to need to taper. Like, mine was two years and I did it at a rapid rate. It got frustrating. The timeframe's the most frustrating thing I tell people. Don't get frustrated three years or four years, because once it's done, it's done.

Because we had a few goal, like I said, first we were like, oh, we'll only go on a few months. And then when we were like, we'll do a year, we'll be off in a year. So, yeah, they don't get frustrated if.

It'S trying to get back to the pharmacist. Very helpful. We've got. I talked to her, I'd be like, you know, hey, I'm 20 milligrams here. I'm still feeling terrible, like it's just never going to end. And, you know, help me through it. She'd be like, you know, you're almost there. So that support system was a big help. So I tell people to try and find somebody that can.

Yes.

And when you're done, it's still the one thing we noticed. She kind of told me, when you're done, notice is you've done the physical part, but there's a mental part after which I'm still going. Is that mental part you're going to have to get after the physical parts first, but the mental.

And that really surprised me, too.

I didn't know that she told me.

About it just because I was a little bit.

Tell us about the mental part then when you're Saying that, what do you mean when you say the mental part?

For me it's just, it's, it's getting up every morning. Am I going to feel bad or. In that seven years, I guess it's at seven years I kind of isolated myself. It's getting back into society. Like getting back. I, I met, I met with one of my friends face to face for the first time in four years.

Wow.

It sounds weird, but it's just kind of getting yourself, your friends, maybe contacting them, even going to work. Like I'm in that environment in so long. It's, it's. That's the mental part to me. It's just getting back there and it.

Does take time or even like I thought that once I was done with Suboxone that I could just. But like I was saying that I didn't. I don't think I cried for years. Like years and years. And when as soon as I got off this box I was like crying every day, like commercial and like just anything was like making me cry. And I think it's just because I like not dealt any emotions for so long or.

The time loss then. Yeah, the time starts hitting you really hard. Yeah, I wasted two years, I wasted five years.

The people I hurt, the things that.

You know, people I hurt, people I cut off, stuff like that.

It's like a. The sadness hits you, it's like a grieving process.

Yeah.

You know, you just, you start feeling that all the times, all the friends you've had for 25 years, you just haven't talked to in four years. Just stuff like that.

And I think it is like, although is that too. I think just coming off the medication, I think it's just like. I think I went through a bit of depression which I don't think was all just related. I felt like, I think it was a, you know, I just, just everything was really unstable. I think just because you're giving up another opiate. So even though it was a slow taper, you're still. It's the first time that I've ever not had opiates in my system and God knows how long.

She gave me an idea in the beginning when I first cut off and I tried it because it's true, it was the mental. The first day I got up and I didn't go to that pharmacy, I was really hurt mentally because in my mind that was, that was a daily routine part of the ritual. So she told me just take a drive down park in the parking lot. So I did. And then I went home and it actually helped a little. So it's just that ritual, that mental ritual, you know, your mind, you say, supposed to be there at this time. I'm supposed to be getting a medication. What's going on?

That was one of the things I missed the most about when we stopped doing the pills was the ritual of preparing it. It was. It was one of. One of the things that, like, I found hardest to let go go of. And the same with you go into the pharmacy every day and seeing those people, and it just becomes part of your daily routine. So it's hard to let go of those daily routines, get into a new, like, cycle of whatever the thing you need to do to replace that.

So there's a. What you guys are saying is just really ringing true on a. On a biological level. So one of the things that I want to mention when you're talking about that last day and then the mental part kicks in. What. What a lot of people don't understand about opiates is not only is it a pain reliever, but it's an anxiety reliever. Like a neurochemical level. It caps over your anxious brain chemicals. So it's not just physically you feel better. Emotionally and mentally, you feel better. So when you go through withdrawal, not only do you have the physical pain rebound, but you have an. Your anxiety goes crazy, basically. I mean, you feel emotionally and mentally unhinged for a while. And that. That's part of what. What these guys are saying. And then the other thing that you guys are saying, which I really like on a biological level, is you're talking about the rituals and the routines. And most people don't know, but, you know, dopamine is the. Is the addictive chemical with any substance. Doesn't matter. It's dopamine. That's the thing that makes you keep going back. Well, dopamine is actually released not when you have the thing, but when you're about to get the thing. So, like, being in the parking lot, like, the ritual setup is actually when you get the good brain chemical. That's the trick of addiction. It's not. It's not the having, it's wanting.

We were on waiting, and we'd be feeling bad, literally, we'd be throwing up.

But you know you're gonna get it, and then you're not throwing up anymore.

You're good to go, knowing you're getting it. Total sense.

I didn't. Yeah, right. Because I've heard of many stories about people say, you know, once they finally got a hold of somebody and they knew their dude was on the way, they felt physically better. And that's because you literally get the brain chemical release. It's like Pavlov and the dog. It's the bell ringing. Even though the food hasn'. Your brain is like. And there's like a relief there right now. Do either one of you have anything related to addiction? It doesn't have to even be related to medication assisted treatment, but just addiction in general. What's the one thing you guys would want other people to know so.

Well, no, probably I kind of said it. But just knowing that by the time you realize that you've got a problem and you're addicted, you've got a really rough road ahead of you. And you can spend that time, time like digging yourself deeper into your addiction, or you can spend that time having hard days, but at least working towards something better and that you be like sober and happy. I had told you before that anytime I heard anybody sober say that they were sober and happy, I just said you're a liar. Because either you didn't have a problem like I did, or you're not happy now. But I'm not lying. And I really did have a really bad problem. And it's just.

It is possible. Yeah, I just echo the same thing. It's possible. Don't get. There were times where I thought I'd never like, there were times where I thought I'm just going to end it because I can't do this anymore. And you know, I just can't get there. But you, you can get there. It's going to be hard. And once you're there, like right now, you think so much clearer. Like I said, it must affect your brain chemistry because since we've come off everything, it's I. You'll think so much clearer the decisions you're making. Like you look back there, it's just a total difference.

It's funny because I said that you can read, you can feel your brain just thinking differently just feels like you can feel like rewiring your brain. Happen, happening. It's really neat stuff.

When you get that hope back to hope for your future, you actually know that, you know, now you can start doing things for your future. You start making changes. So I just tell people, don't give up.

It does get better, right? And you do eventually feel better. And would you say it's worth it?

Like, I'm sure I don't. I doubt.

Hardest thing I ever did in my life. The best thing I ever did.

Yeah. And I'm sure that if I were using, I probably wouldn't be. I don't know if I. I don't know if I'd still be alive or whatever.

Absolutely.

But it's just such a dismal. It's such a hopeless existence and it doesn't have to be that way.

Okay? So the big takeaway that I'm going to get from this and hopefully other people will get their takeaway is that, yes, it's difficult, but it's going to be difficult every day if you're using anyway. And so at least this difficult is getting us somewhere. And there's end insight. And at the end you'll feel different. You'll think completely differently. You'll. You'll think clearly, you'll feel better and you won't have to wake up feeling sick every day anymore. You don't have. You can get off of that treadmill and never have to get back on.

And once you start, like, we're. Well first, once we started like on the medicine, there's so many like, little milestones where like, oh my God, this is so much better and so much different. Like I said the first day that we have, we weren't like really sick or like actually spend time or when you realize you can like leave for a few days because you don't have to be on your medication or just. It's just there's a lot of those little.

Little things you don't think of when you're.

Little things you don't think about little lights at the end of the tunnel that make it worth it along. It's not just like, it's not just. There's lots of little positives. Lots of little positives along the way, for sure.

Well, I'm so glad you said that.

Right.

Because it's not horrible the whole way. Right. It's just there's better days and worse days. But it gets a little bit and a little bit and a little bit.

I'll attest to that. 280 sick. It gets better and at the end it's a lot better.

And there.

Yeah.

Then as when you're addicted, there's just so many little things that you don't realize. You don't. That you don't have in your life anymore or that type of thing that you just completely forget that you can, you know, you just think that it's normal to wake up sick or whatever and you can. There's all these things that you normalize in your life when you're addicted that aren't normal at all.

And start getting that as you progress.

Yes. Needs to get back to normal.

So for everybody who's watching this, I hope that all of you appreciate the magnitude of hearing two people who came off of opioids who've beaten opioid addiction. They did it in an outpatient basis. They didn't go to inpatient. They did it on their own while in a relationship and got through it every single day until they came out the other end of that tunnel. It's really huge. And I think hearing you guys story is going to do a world of good for a lot of other people.

I hope so.

Like and your channel, it's done a world of good for me too. I started watching your channel and I kind of felt like a little bit of a relapse maybe coming on type thing and just like understanding psychology of it is helpful too.

I watch your channel is what meditation did for me just helped me mentally and you know, anybody, any questions, they ask you a question you want to pass on them, I would be more than happy to answer anything.

Okay. And what people can do also is you can put the questions in the comments and of the video and if if need be I'll even pass them on to you guys. But I'm sure that Emma and Gary will take a look after the video launches and try to look at Yalls questions and. And give you guys some feedback if you want videos and your comments.

Anyway, so I'll be talking right?

Because that's how I met Emma. Because I was so used to seeing her name come up in the comments. I felt like I knew you already from talking back and forth in comments.

She's not. She loves your channel and she was always on.

Well, I want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. It's an amazing story and I just hope everyone can appreciate how amazing it is this much as I do. Because it just blows me away that you guys are able to do that and do that together. So now I'm going to have to stop telling people that that can't be done. The relationship and the doing it same time part. I've always told people can't be done but now I know that it can.

Thanks for having us, Amber.

Thanks for having us, Amber.