To Call Out or Not: Navigating Lies and Secrets in Addiction

Should I call out my loved one if I know they're lying to me, if I know they've relapsed and they're trying to say they haven't? If I know that they weren't where they said they were going to be? Should I call it out if I know my loved one is intoxicated and they're trying to play it off like they're not? That is a question we get all the time from family members. But to be honest, family members are not the only ones that have these kind of questions. People in early recovery have similar type questions. Like, for example, I get asked, hey, I had a relapse. Maybe the person confesses it to me, their recovery coach, and they're like, do I have to tell my spouse? Or my spouse is wanting all these details about things that happened in the past. Should I tell them all those details? Is it good? Is it not good? And because these are such common questions, we're going to cover them. We're going to tackle this topic on today's video because the answer sort of varies, I think depending on each of those situations is slightly different. And we're going to tackle this in two major pieces. We're going to talk about it from the family member side. Should they call out lies and secrets? And in order to do that, we're going to bring on Campbell Manning, our family recovery specialist, because she answers this question, like, all the time. She's going to give you her feedback, and then I will give you feedback about if you're on the addicted person side, about what you should tell and maybe what. Maybe you should hold back so you can make strategic, logical decisions about it and not emotionally reactive decisions, because we all know that ends us up nowhere. Campbell, thank you for joining us.

Hey, you're welcome. It's my pleasure.

Campbell's giving up her lunch break to talk to us, you guys. She's like. She's like. I mean, she's like a beast. She's just like, works more than any of us.

Don't worry. I shoveled that kale salad down. Record time.

All right, so. So, Campbell, I. I know you and I were looking through the family, our. Our member, our family members group to see if they were, like, common questions. And this is the one we saw most often. There were different variations of it, but it was like, what should I call out and what should I not? Because it's really hard when you know the truth and you're the family member and you know they're lying to you. Campbell, what the World, what do you do?

You know, it is a complicated question, and I think before we know better, we do call it out. And we ask a lot of really stupid questions, like, why are you doing this? Just stop. Like, but ultimately, I tell people all the time, you get to know what you know. You don't. First of all, they're not going to tell you the truth. I can't tell you how many parents talk to me. And they're like, well, I asked him if he was taking pain pills, and he said no. And I'm like, well, who in the hell says yes? Never had anyone say, oh, yeah, I'm taking a bunch of opiates. So first of all, they lie. Second of all, it pushes on their shame button, and then that makes you angry, so it does no one any good. You already know the truth. You know they're high. You know they just blew. They took your gas money and bought weed with it. You already know this. Why do you need to ask?

Yeah, and it's a. It's almost a reflex on the addictive person's part. I mean, it's almost like, literally. I had two people tell me this this week. Two of our strength coaching clients had told me about having a lapse. And they were like. And my wife asked me, and I. Jane. And I was like, no, I haven't. And they said. And I just kept denying until I was totally backed into a corner. He's like, I don't know why I do that. And I hear that all the time. And it is really. It is almost like a human reaction. Right? You think of. You ask a kid, did you do that? No. You know, it's like, Campbell, if I say, campbell, did you spend too much money on clothes this week?

No.

No. Absolutely not.

Do I have a new dress in my mailbox from Bowdoin?

No, absolutely not.

That email was a lie that I got saying it was delivered.

Right. Why are there more boxes on your porch? Campbe. Right. And so it's just a defensive reflex. I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not condoning anything. Like, think about these things before you say them.

And to be honest, like, what I have found also is if you ask the person with the addiction, did you blank today? And they didn't, like, even, like, if someone had an eating disorder, and you said, did you eat breakfast? And they didn't. But they lie and they say, yes, I did. And then, though, what happens, and this is where I've learned not to do this, is then they flip it around. Well, I was going to eat breakfast, but I'm not, because you're on my back about it, which was a bold face lie. They weren't going to eat anyway, but now they've flipped it and they're justifying their addictive thoughts and behaviors back to the person who asked the question. So that's why I strongly say, don't ask.

That's a really good point. I didn't think of that one, Kim, because it's like. It's that ninja move. So it's like, if you say, have you been drinking today? You seem funny. And then they're. They might. They're probably going to say, no. What are you talking. I'm just. I'm just tired. That's the tip. I'm just tired.

Right.

And then the other thing could happen is exactly what Campbell's saying. They could say something like, well, if you're gonna always accuse me, I might as well go do it, because nothing I do, it doesn't matter. You always think I'm shady.

And whether they say that or not, they're thinking it. And this is where you have to remember when you ask these questions, you are. You are engaging addiction in the. In the conversation, which is always there, waiting to get in the conversation. But once you ask these questions, you said with a nice hand, engraved invitation, come on in.

Right?

And that's what you're gonna get.

So are you officially, is your official answer. You should just let them get by with the lies. That's what you're saying? You're gonna go on public?

I'm gonna go public online. I hope this goes out to the whole world. Yes, let them lie. Because, you know, you don't need to ask. It's like, if I come home from work and the dishes are in the sink, and the. Frank is downstairs watching football, and I said, did you watch football all day? He's gonna be like, no, But I know damn well he did because he didn't do the dishes. So why do I need to ask? I can either say, okay, well, he watch football. Do I care if I, you know, or do I just do the dishes and let it go? It doesn't matter.

Right? And. And the example about the dishes is kind of good because it's really what is the real thing I'm trying to get at. And oftentimes it's not the question we're asking. Like, for example, like you said, you know, my. If I'm asking Frank if he watch football day, what I really care about is, did you get the chores done. Right, Right. And you, you might be more likely to get a, an honest answer if you ask the, the more pertinent, legitimate question. The thing that you're really.

Is there a reason, Is there a reason you didn't do the dishes?

Right.

But I think for when you're talking about your addict, like, are you high? Did you steal the $5 out of my wallet? They just say no. And I can't tell you how many of those conversations I had over the years. I thought I had $10. Did anybody take it out? No.

Right.

Instead of just knowing one of Those clowns took $10 out of my wallet. Note to self, don't leave cash around.

Right. So you're just saying, yeah, it sucks to be lied to, but don't. If you don't ask the question, you're not really getting lied to. And you know the answer already. When you're asking, you already know. And I think that's a really good.

Point ever, because then you just, you can know it, you can store it up, you can put it in your hopper for later decisions or whatever, but you're also not going to get mad about it. But when you ask the question and you're lied to, you're going to become livid, like, you're lying now you're lying. Why are you lying?

I just happened to think of, you know, I was telling you like a week or so ago, I've been rereading that, like Chris Voss, the hostage negotiator stuff.

Oh, God, you guys buckle up. This is good, Olive.

It's so good. It's really just counseling techniques, but he gives them, like, interesting names. But he stole them from us first. I'm still on them back. But he, he recommends this thing where you say you probably have a good reason for, blah, blah, blah. So if you, if you say, hey, did you do the dishes? They're gonna say, whatever. They may lie, but I tried to.

But I couldn't find the soap.

You probably have a good reason why you couldn't get to the dishes today. And there. And then a lot of times they'll be like, actually, I just said, I'm butt watch football day. I should have done it. And then they do it. So it's almost like you, you, you're inviting them to, to give you the reason. And you're doing it with sort of a non judgmental voice. And you're far more likely to get the truth then if you just come out because it's like, did you do this? Or why did you do this, the why question is also very like attacking.

They're just going to become defensive immediately. And you don't want that with the. An addiction because it's just brick by brick by brick filling up the wall that's breaking the connection. So it's actually working against you long term.

Does it matter if. Does the circumstance at all? Does it make a difference if, like we're talking about before, someone's supposedly supposed to be in active recovery? Like, they're just using. Right. Like, and. And they're not even pretending that they're trying to get sober versus, versus. They went to treatment or whatever. They're like a month, three months, six months, so night.

And they're, you know, so.

So if they've been doing really good and didn't have a lapse, does that make any difference or do you sort of say, still is probably not going to go well? What do you think?

I think it probably isn't going to go well. But like, maybe later, like, I don't think you should ever have these kind of conversations with someone who's intoxicated. Like, that's just not going to go well, period.

Oh, yeah.

But if. Then maybe the next day or something you say, hey, you seem a little off last night. I'm just wondering if there's anything I can do to help support you in your recovery or is there anything I can do that would be helpful to you or whatever language you would use that isn't going to push on a button. But I even one time I don't. I think I would just let it go. But maybe it's because I know that lapses are part of the disease.

Yeah. I think from a strategic point of view, I kind of agree because you're likely to get the same kind of response, like a denial. Probably it. And at best you might get a, yeah, dividend was only one beer or something, you know, like a minimization. At best.

Yeah. I just don't think I. I tell the story all the time. But I years ago worked for a non profit. I had these two great girls that worked for me. But I had Walker shortbread cookies that I'd gotten from Santa in my stocking. And y', all, I love these things, like more than anything. But they're super fattening, so I don't eat them very often. And I guard them because there's like 10 in a box. I had these cookies underneath my desk at work and I saw them was like, oh, snap, I could have a cookie. And so I bent down and shoved a cookie in my mouth and was like, sort of chewing it. And. And then Casey was like, what are you doing down there? I was like, mommy. She's like, are you. Are you eating something? I'm like, got up. She goes, you're lying. She goes, you're eating Walker shortbread cookies without us. And I'm like, like, literally, cookie in my mouth going. So to me, like, that was like an innocent thing. I'm not addicted to Walker Short kind of, but I can't afford to be. So not. But that wasn't even that bad, except I was just not sharing my cookies.

So it's because you felt bad about it, right?

So when we feel bad, would you guys like one?

So you felt bad not because you ate a cookie, because you didn't share. That's that self pres. Okay, the. I'm having, though, a question about. And I say this a lot in videos. It's been a while since said it, but I always say, you know, addiction can only live in the dark. Turning the light on just doesn't survive with the light on. And I. And I definitely believe that. So there's definitely this part of me that's like, if someone's been sober for a while and, you know they've lapsed, you definitely do not want to call it out like an accusation. You definitely don't want to throw a fit, get hostile, have bad body language.

In any kind of way, or yell or punish.

But in some. In some circumstances, and you may have to think through yourself and your person and personalities and stuff. Like, I do think it's helpful to say, hey, I know you've. I know you've been struggling lately or something like that.

Or it seems to me like you might be struggling there something do. And. But you would say that to a friend or a spouse who looked like they had just had a bad day, you wouldn't say, what did you do today that made you have a bad day? You say, is there anything I can do? You look like you a little bit.

On the struggle bus, right? And. And then they might say something like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. And if they do say something like that, then I would say, well, I know you. I know you drank yesterday. I know you smoked yesterday. I know you. Whatever yesterday. And then you can even say, hey, I'm not upset. I'm not. I'm just. I'm just pulling it to the surface. The other thing that comes to my mind, as far as why that's important is because I have had a lot of clients tell me, especially married couples do this. It's like they say, my using, drinking, whatever, gambling, whatever it is, does not really affect my spouse. They're just hypersensitive to it, and they just throw a fit. And every time they get away with it and the spouse doesn't even notice, it reaffirms to them. See, it doesn't even affect them. It's just literally, if they just know I did it. It's just the knowing that's upsetting them. It's not the fact that I did it. And so it's almost like. See, it's like the. It's like this little game where they prove to themselves that it doesn't affect anyone else.

Well, then, to that point, I think instead of saying, hey, I know you drank yesterday, it would be more beneficial to say something like, well, I just felt myself becoming a little anxious last night and worrying about you again. And so it makes me think maybe it's like you drank because that's how I felt the whole time you were actively drinking. So that would be that reinforcement of that again. Not yelling, not punishing, but just saying, hey, we're in this together. And I felt myself going backward. So I'm wondering if you did.

Oh, I like that. That kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about get to the real thing. So you could say, instead of, I know you relapsed, I know you used, or whatever, you could say, hey, you seemed distant yesterday, or you seem to, like, you know, isolate yourself or not want to be around. So it's like you're noticing the behaviors different, and then that'll at least cue the person up, like, oh, I'm on the radar.

I'm not, as. I'm not as smooth as I think I am.

Right. And it does go to that fact of, like, oh, it is noticeable, and.

And she does care.

Right. Right. The key is if you are going to bring it up, which there are circumstances you do. It's how you bring it up, because your tone and your body language, this is actually has to do with, like, neurological wiring. You can say almost anything you want to say to somebody if you say it in the right tone.

Yeah.

It's like it bypasses that defense mechanism if you can say it. And your. Your body has to match, too. So even if your tone's right, but your body's aggressive, you know, or something like that, then it doesn't work. So if you can get your energy right and you say it right, it doesn't hit that same defense button.

That's so true. Because even going back to poor Frank, you know, if he's doing something wrong, like, I don't know, watching football all day, not helping. I'll. Instead of saying, my God, I just say, dude. And he knows, right? Then something's wrong, and. But I say it funny, and then he fixes it, and then we move on. Like, he evaluates very quickly, what am I doing wrong? And he. Because he knows, and then he fixes it, and I don't have to ever use an accusatory tone, and he doesn't have to become defensive.

So in that circumstance, it's almost like. Like an inside joke.

Yeah, well, it is like. Yeah. But I think, you know, I talk all the time about this new triangle I have, which is if you empathize and validate, which is sort of the example we just used with the. I felt a little anxious. And then empower. There's no need for defensiveness. And now you're joining them and you're building that oxytocin and that actually, the serotonin, because you connect with them, and they can be proud that they redirected themselves or that they sort of move forward or fix their laps or whatever's going on there. Then you're now aligning and empowering them.

You made me think of. When you said that. You just made me think of, like, a few weeks back, one of the. One of the strengths clients we had, she clicked into the session, right? And we do it via zoom. And, like, immediately she clicked in, and. And the first thing I saw was her take this deep breath. And I said, oh, you got something big to tell me? Like, it was like, here we go. I could tell, like, she was gearing up, like. And she was like, I do. And then she just, like, poured out. I had a relapse yesterday. And then she just, like, spit it out really fast, and she's like. And my husband caught me, and I promised I would tell you, and I was like, dude, you told me, like, immediately. You didn't even beat around the bush. And so in that circumstance, I think it was helpful to bring it to the surface because we had some great conversations about it. We talked about what led to it. We talked about whether or not she needed to tell her sponsor or pick up a white chip. And. And she actually felt so much better after the fact. So there. I think they do, right?

I do think they do need to say. It's just. Do they need to say it to you? Not.

Not You.

But, like, to my parents or to my spouse, maybe I do need to talk about it with my sponsor. You know, sometimes it depends on where the. How the family member is. They may still be in the angry stage of this. And to know that, hey, yesterday I relapsed, but I'm going to a meeting tonight. They'll get. They won't. They won't say, oh, well, all right, thanks for sharing. Like, I'm sure you can fix this. They'll be like, oh, my God. And that would be detrimental.

All right, I'm gonna throw you a hard question here, because I feel like this might. This. This might hit home a little bit. What if. Oh, what if you find out not just they stole $5, but they stole big?

Oh, that's just mean, Amber.

That's different. Okay, tell us, like, you know, like, I don't know, they stole your engagement ring. I mean, like, what? You know, like something important.

Your mother's diamond earrings that you just inherited.

That's right. Do you just leave that and let them figure it out? Like, what do you do with that?

So are you asking, when you discover that, what do you do with it?

Yeah. Do you call that out, or do you just leave?

I called it out. Mean, ugly, bad. Didn't go well.

Okay, so denied it. Recommendations.

He lied.

Is that what you recommend to other people?

I think in that case, I would just say, hey, these things are missing, and I know that I didn't lose them, and I know that dad didn't, so I'm just letting you know that I'm pretty aware that you're stealing from me, and that's not gonna. That's not gonna last. We're not gonna have that anymore. Like, as in, you won't live here. But I think. But again, this is. Where are you in your boundary ability, this conversation with a client, and she was like, I don't. I can't have any boundaries. I'm like, then don't say these things.

Right. So, like, would you. Speaking of that, which is slightly off topic but relevant in a situation like that, would you turn it into the police? Would you, like, press a charge or something? What's that look? You're like, I made Campbell stop and think. Like, I threw her something.

No, I, I. It just depends on where you are in this. I didn't. I am not sad that I didn't. It might have stopped it sooner, but I don't want my child to have a police record.

Okay. Okay. So. So what you're saying is it's Not a total right and wrong answer here. You have to really think it through. Right.

And, and if you were to report it to the police, then I think you would. I would recommend that you come at it from the perspective of, I don't want him to be arrested and put in jail. I'd like for you to help me get him mandated to treatment.

Right.

So that I would do it for. For a positive reason with a better outcome than punishment. Punishment. It's not going to help.

Yeah, there's. There's a couple of things that go on in my mind with that as far as how it's going to impact the addicted person. And, and I know I'm always like, that's all I ever think about is if you do this, what are they going to think? How are they going to respond? Is it going to move us closer or further? If a person gets a legal charge and they know you're responsible for it, like you call the law because they stole, because they were being aggressive, because they drunk, drink, drive or whatever. Drink, drunk drive, whatever. I can't even think. Drove while intoxicated. And they know it's on you. They almost never learn the lesson. All they can think about is, I can't believe you turned your own daughter in, your own wife. And it's all they'll fixate on. So in that respect, I'm like, I'm think it's totally fine. You know, sometimes a legal charge is a wakeup call, but if they know it came from you, it.

It doesn't hit home the same fight you big time.

On the other hand, especially in cases like where we've dealt with like really young kids, like teenagers or maybe early, early 20s, and they're just wild and like you, and they're just wrecking the house and they're just destructive and like literally the only. Like you just wish they would get arrested because it's the only thing that's going to stop it. That, that might be a situation where.

You, I would say definitely call the police.

Okay.

And again, I think it's where, where what boundaries of yours are being crossed. If they're breaking all your stuff, they're damaging your home, then you're like, I'm not having this. If they're beating their own car with a hammer, I might let them get away with it.

Okay. Right. So if whatever they're doing is just causing them consequences, if whatever they're doing is just causing them consequences, I can tell you definitely want to let that ride because that's how we get out of denial. Right. If it's venturing over into your lane like some of these other things we're talking about, that. That's when it gets kind of. You have to really think strategically, what is my goal here? What am I trying to make happen?

And, and. Or even more basic than that, Amber, would be, what am I going to continue to say yes to? Is it having my home abused? Is it having my. My space violated? Is having my money taken? Is like, at what point am I going to say that's enough?

Right. Yeah. To me, there are lines that just. Even as much as I'm sort of advocate, let them figure it out themselves, there are lines that you just don't cross. And I personally think if someone's stealing from you on the right, I feel like that's abuse. If you can't live in your own home and you're worried about locking your wallet up at night. To me, that's. That's abuse. The same as emotional abuse, physical. I mean, it's just. It's un. It makes you unsafe in your home. Right.

And then it just makes you crazy in all avenues of your life. So now my life is completely ruined, which happens anyways for parents is my life is ruined because of your problem. But there's a. There's an end point, in my opinion, about how much of that you will tolerate. Everyone's endpoint is different. I got that right. You got to know your endpoint.

Right? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it. It's hard because sometimes most of the time, the person with the addictions needs differ or they're just not always in alignment with what the family member needs. And that's why we. That's why we do this separately. That's why we have our model where each person has their advocate. Because I'm always thinking through, what do you need? What's the best scenario for the person? But you and Kim do a lot of thinking through on, okay, the family matters too.

Yeah.

Don't listen to Amber all the time because, hey, that's not okay. And. And that's why I need you guys.

Sometimes you're in my sessions.

I mean, I feel bad about it sometimes, like, I feel myself doing it, and I feel that. So I'm like, Kim and Kimmy, you'll go over there, lawyer for your people because they need it. I'm like, I know that they need to hear from you guys. And I know that's a lot of what you guys deal with in the membership. Right.

Like, often, if we don't if we, if we don't empower them and they don't know their boundaries and they don't know their endpoint, this game will go on forever until the, until the family members change. Usually the other person, the addicted one, doesn't change.

Right. Do you think, do you think it makes a difference between the relationship, like, spouses versus parents versus siblings versus. Does that matter?

Does it matter as far as how.

Like, boundaries, the boundaries and stuff.

I, you know what? I used to think the hardest job in the world was being the parent of a drug addict. But as I do this job more and more, I really think being the spouse of a person with an addiction is harder because you own a home together, you own property together, you might have children. You don't have as much power. So, yeah, you really do have to know your endpoint. You don't have to share it and you don't have to know it, like, solid, but you have to recognize I'm going to have to have an endpoint.

That's a good point. I never thought about that because I was with you. I emotionally. Fear wise.

I feel like it's fear wise. It's worse to be the parent. But parents do have power.

But, but spouse wise, logistically, you're so tied in with this person, like, and you don't, you don't have as many options, I can tell you.

Like, I hear this constantly from the alcoholic spouses that I see is like, I don't know what they're bitching about. Like, I paid the house payment, I go to work. They drive a nice car. I go to the children's baseball games. Does it really matter if I'm taking a gin and tonic? Like, what's the problem? And that's. That keeps that problem just going and going while the spouse is, like, behind the scenes.

Right. What's a. Is there, is there a, a common thing that, that people talk to you and Kim about? Whereas, like, I'm always saying, like, let this happen or let that happen or it's okay. And then you guys are like, no, put the smack down. I feel like there probably is.

I'm sure there is. I can't think of it. Yeah. All the time. Because I'm constantly saying that's Amber's perspective, and I'm working with your perspective.

I'm. I'm your lawyer.

Say, don't watch Amber's videos about that. Watch mine and Kim's.

That's why you gotta have a lawyer. Right. You gotta have an advocate. Right. I totally, totally get That a lot of times I'll tell my people, especially if they're young people, like if it's a parent kid situation, I'll say now let me tell you what camel's doing over there. She's going to tell your parents to act nice and not call you out on this stuff. But. And you're going to think, oh, they don't even know it and you're getting away with it. And I said don't you believe it. It's a trap, man. They're setting a trap for you, man. They're just waiting.

Does that scare them or does that make them challenge rise to the challeng.

I don't think I, I still think it still works on them. I don't think I think it. They think they're getting away with. They're just happy they're getting away with it. They think they're flying under the radar even I said no, dude, don't even think it's. You're gonna love it. You can be like, oh, I love my parents. These camera because she's. They're off my back.

You will for a little bit.

I'm like, dude, they're setting you up. Like they're gonna get you or whatever. Yeah, anything. Any other boundary common ones. I know you gotta go. You got like three minutes. So.

Okay.

While we got the wisdom of the family specialist, any other.

I just want to reiterate like you by not pointing it out, by not asking, by not being lied to. You still know what you know and that's very important to, to just put it in there, right? Talk about it with your counselor, write it down, know it does it, does it in three days matter, then get rid of it. If it's just like one plus one plus one plus one and all of a sudden you're like, okay, that's it, that's 10, I'm done or whatever. I just think you not calling it out doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Not calling it out doesn't mean it's not going to have some huge importance at some point in time when you have enough evidence or knowledge or fatigue or whatever word that you're gathering with this knowledge, it's going to matter at some point, right Tonight? No, maybe not.

And sometimes it just matters because you just stand back and let the unmanageability show itself. Like let it, let it, let the bubble burst itself because it will. The other thing I would say to that is, and I know it's hard for families to believe me, but if you don't. They actually feel guilty. And the. That feeling of guilt is much, much more likely to get them to change than the feeling of resentment, which is the feeling that they will have if you call out for it.

Yeah. It's like that scenario we did with Jane and whatever that.

And.

And she was yelling at the kid, and he punched the wall. Like, that kid didn't learn anything from her saying, I know you skipped lacrosse practice.

Right.

He didn't learn anything except, my mom's a b. Tch. And I'm going to go now take drugs because of that.

Right, Exactly. Exactly.

But she's at home just fuming because he lied and damaged their house. Right.

And it's hard, though, because our pride gets in the way a little bit. Right. It's like, we don't want it to.

Be what it is, or. And so we want to ask the questions so that they'll tell us the truth. So maybe what we're beginning to believe is not actually happening.

Oh, I didn't think about that, Campbell. So it's almost like we want them to convince us that it didn't happen.

Yes.

I didn't think about that.

Yeah.

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Going on my merry way with my little perfect life instead of, well, shoot, now I have a big problem. I mean, it's like when I had the conversation with my son in the car and I thought he was a gay murderer. I was much more comfortable with having a child who's a gay murderer than a drug addict.

I know. I don't know why that is, but people always want to be anything else. I'm like, dude, this is the most solvable of them.

I know. But we don't know that at the time.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah. I'd have client parents all the time. They're like, oh, my son has bipolar disorder. I'm like, or could it be the meth? And maybe he just has a drug addiction. They're like, no, it's bipolar. I'm like, we really want it to be a drug addiction, not bipolar. We can fix the addiction. We cannot really do much with bipolar.

Right, Exactly.

Yeah.

All right, we're gonna go let you help some more families out there. Thank you for hanging out. Those of you watching, hang in there, because we're going to talk about it from the addicted person side about what you should share and not share as far as giving up your own secrets, because there is sort of a method to making that decision too. And if you guys. Anybody wants to make a session with you, I put the link in the description. Campbell. Okay. Because you might need Campbell to help you think through some of these questions and boundaries and should I call it out or not? What's okay? What's not?

Or they're watching this thing. She didn't know what she was doing any more than I do right now back in the day, so why would I listen to her?

Right. Sometimes it depends on personality. Sometimes there are some extra factors that you really do need to, like, brainstorm with someone to think through all the different angles about making these decisions. It's not as black and white as we're making it out.

It's no formula for.

For doing this.

Yeah, I agree. Very. All right.

Thanks for having me. Bye. All right, like we said before, I want to also cover this from the person who's holding the secrets point of view.