Tough Love vs. Holding Boundaries 💪🏻

Welcome back. Here is your second bonus episode this week with Campbell Manning, our parent recovery specialist with a much needed topic, the topic of tough love versus holding boundaries. Because, Campbell, you were telling me other day a story about saying something to a client, and they were like, what was that? You said, tell me that story. That was funny.

They were like, there was a new client. And she said, wait a minute. Do you work with Amber or do you not work with Amber? And I was like, yeah, I work with Amber all the time. She's like, well, Amber's against tough love. And what you're telling me is tough love. And I was like, no, what I'm telling you is holding boundaries. And so we had to have a big conversation about that. And then she said, well, I don't think this is the craft method at all.

Okay.

I was like, okay, so.

So what was it? What kind of thing were you telling?

What kind of thing? I suggested that they charge rent for their adult child who is drinking constantly. So I think if you charge some rent, you could either get a shift or she will recognize that she can't just pay rent because she's drinking her funds. And she was like, that's. I can't do that. That's just tough love. I don't think you know Amber at all.

I think, too, some of it is the intention behind it. Right.

Like.

Like, it's like if you're trying to do it to be punishment or to make someone do or not do something, then I would say maybe it's tough love. But if you're doing it because it's an adult child living in your house.

Yeah. No, I think that's ultimately the difference between tough love and boundaries is one is done punitively, harshly, almost donely, and the other is done calmly, lovingly, with a goal of transformation or shift in thinking in mind.

Right. Because allowing an adult child to live in your house without paying rent or not having to do any regular life stuff is not.

It's good for them.

It's not allowing the natural consequences.

No, it's not good for them, period. Because you know what? They're not getting serotonin.

Serotonin. I get the serotonin. Okay, so. So help us break it down. How do you know the difference? Because it is. It is tricky. And sometimes it is an intention thing versus, you know, it could be the same action, but. But why you do what you do is so incredibly important. Plus, I think when I say tough love, a lot of it is about. There's just a lot of thoughts out there about, like, you have to emotionally cut yourself off from a person. You have to stop talking to them. You have to, like, not love them or whatever. Right. Which I don't think I don't agree with at all. Right. No, it's not helpful, and it's not even possible in most cases, so. So talk to us about how to understand the difference.

Okay.

Where the intentionality comes in and all that.

Well, first I did. I found a quote. For those of you who know me, I love quotes. I have a whole fabulous pill pink book filled with quotes that I write down. But I think this one is sort of like a good starting point for this conversation. The quote is, desperation drives you to do unlikely things. What was once unthinkable becomes the one hope that sustains you. And I think for us to even move into any point of setting boundaries, we really have to wrap our heads around and our hearts around that. Because it is unthinkable to have boundaries on your children or to put out sort of these statements like, I can't live like this anymore. Like, that's very unthinkable. Right. When we have these little people and they're growing up, we never think we'll have it.

We don't think you'll have to do that. You don't even have to because some of the stuff that you're faced with is so un real or imaginable. It's like, it doesn't. Wouldn't happen in regular life situations. So you're like, why am I having to, like, draw this hard line? Why are we arguing about this kind of thing?

Correct. So because it was so unthinkable, it's really start to. It's very difficult to put your mind into this position where it can even be open to the concept, let alone starting to put things into play. So I think that's the first thing you have to kind of understand that then you have to stop listening to their narrative because their narrative is keeping you stuck. And their narrative is, you don't love me. You are terrible mother. If you love me, you'd let me go to this party. Everyone else is doing it. School is a drag. So you start to play into that because that would make you feel better.

Because it's like the gaslighting, right? And they make you doubt yourself. And so you really stop trusting yourself because you're getting all this messaging about you're wrong, you're overreacting, like, you're making a big deal, you're crazy. No one else cares about it. You're getting all that messaging.

Dad doesn't agree with you, all that kind of stuff. So then you might have been in sort of like this maybe pre contemplative stage, that I can start to hold some boundaries. But then this jumps in and squashes that because that puts our back into what we talked about yesterday, which is our own anxiety and fear of maybe I'm wrong, maybe I shouldn't do this. No one's agreeing with me, or what horrible thing will happen if I do this, right? So their narrative fuels our inability to move forward. So that's the first thing you got.

To do, is sort of trust yourself. Better trust yourself, get back to your sort of rational thinking, kind of reconnect to yourself, because you really lose yourself in the whole process.

And I think the way to do that is to start looking at the reality, not what's being said. You know, school's crazy, but, you know, you have. They haven't been in 14 days, so.

Right.

That. No, that's not true. All my friends are doing it. Well, actually, I don't know who any of your friends are anymore, so I don't know that. And my guess is that your old friends, who I knew since you were two, aren't doing this. So start to believe your instincts, because first of all, your mother's instincts are always right.

Pretty pretty on target.

Pretty, pretty on point. Yeah, pretty 100.

When mom's tell me something, I believe, I'm like, all right, I believe you.

They're always right. Yeah, Dad's not so much. Sorry, guys.

Sorry dads. And the reason dads is because I think the dads do know, but they don't want things to be because they can't. They don't want to believe things. So they like, be like, it's not that bad. You know, they like kind of push it down or suppress it. So it's not that their instinct isn't there, it's that they don't listen to their instincts. And. And a lot, not all that's. But a lot of.

A lot of vets don't want it to be because this is unfathomable. I can't fix it. Therefore it shan't be right.

And then you get back to the boys will be boys. Like everyone does it.

You're crazy. Honey, you need to just simmer down. You're perfectionistly calmed down.

So now you have the person telling you crazy, other people telling you crazy. So no wonder.

And then you think, maybe I am.

You doubt yourself, and that brings you that Desperation.

So we sort of self gaslight at that point. So I think you also. This is big. You have to understand that our codependency, which is anxiety and fear, like we talked about yesterday, actually feeds the disease. And by not setting boundaries, we are enabling the disease to grow, to live, to justify, to feel good about itself, to not have to look in the mirror at all.

Right. I think maybe one way to almost, like, visually think about it is addiction feeds off of fear, shame, guilt, any of those negative emotions. It feeds it from the person themselves and from you, like a. Like. Like a parasite, right? Because I always say, like, addiction consumes the other person pretty quick. They don't have anything left. And then it starts leeching off of you, like, from a secondary sour. So when you're giving it fear, shame, guilt, all of those things, you're literally helping it grow into a bigger monster.

And plus, addiction is so smart that it knows right when you are just about to shift into some change. It shows you just enough of your charming child's self.

Yes.

Just when I was about ready to move into action with my son, he came home one day and said, you know, we haven't made layered tie and for so long. Oh, my God, if you go to the grocery store, I'll help you cook tonight. And I was like, oh, there he is. There he is.

Yeah, there's my baby angel. Crazy, right?

Oh, he can't be having a problem with drugs or alcohol if he wants to make layered time.

Oh, totally charmed you.

Totally.

That'd be the perfect thing to say to Campbell. Like, if I was gonna be like, that's what I would say. Something is pretty good.

Serve in a bowl and put fun stuff on top.

Yeah. Which one of them say that? You don't. Okay, that's just funny.

And then I think the last factor that comes into play on this, that gets us to be thinking this unthinkable, is we just have to recognize when we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And there's no formula for this. There's no right or wrong answer for this. I got sick and tired of being sick and tired pretty quickly. I've got clients who can't tolerate being sick and tired of being sick and tired because of their own history and family dynamics. And they're not wrong.

Right. And plus, we talk about this a lot in the office. But yourself, Fris.

Yeah, totally.

So you hit your bottom faster than some other parents might. Like they tolerate the horribleness longer. That's right.

Because Frank is social and he tolerated it way longer.

Right. When. Because that's the place that your self. Pres. Comes in and says, hey, like, what the heck? Get this. You know, this is. I don't like this. Right. I don't like it. For me, it's not okay. Right. And so that comes into play.

That's a really good point.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because that's what I. That was the boundary that I ultimately held, is I don't want to live like this anymore. I don't know where you are, when you are, how you are. Therefore, you either blank, blank, or blank, or find somewhere else to live. But I did say it kindly, and I did say it somewhat nicely, and I did keep him in pump supplies for his type 1 diabetes. I did do that.

She wasn't that harsh.

I didn't do it lovingly.

Right.

And he did. Like, he would engage every now and then. He'd text or, you know, he'd pop in for a weekend and promise everything would be great. And we had tolerated it, much to the other children's great chagrin. But in the end, we really just had to start only listening to what their behaviors were showing us, not what his mouth was telling us.

Right. Because people lie. Behaviors tell the truth. Like, look at the behaviors not listening to what's being said. Watch what's happening, because that's gonna give you the real indicator about what's really.

Going on for all people, not just addiction.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I was talking to someone this week who said. I said, well, do you think that your. Your spouse, your person is remorseful after a big bench? And she said, well, I don't know, because they won't talk to me about it. I'm like, okay, but you're looking at them. Like, do they. Are they defensive? Or they, like, it's all your fault? Or do you get the impression that they kind of feel bad about it? Because. Just look at the behaviors. Like, because sometimes people won't tell you they're sorry. Sometimes people won't tell you they know it's a problem. So sometimes behaviors will tell you truth. And there's good signs, very good signs. And I'm like, no, they're doing this. That means they know, you know, that means they feel guilty. They may not be saying it or admitting it, but it means something's happening.

We have that conversation around amends all the time. I'm like, it may not come, and I'm terribly sorry I ruined your life or did this. It may just come in. In behaviors.

Right.

Like, we have a Lot of canned lighting.

Right.

That's amends.

And, and to be honest, you know, what, what do we say? Like, you know, words say it better. I mean, behavior says it better.

Any actions are better.

Actions are better than words. I couldn't think of it.

Yeah.

Let me ask you this, Camel, because this has come up a few times in sessions and in comments. People leave and, and I can definitely see where people are coming from with this. But they'll say, like, why should I hold my tongue after they've done this thing or that thing? Why should I hold that back and not say that? Isn't that just a natural consequence of the person doing what they did? Shouldn't they hear about, you know, how that's hurting me or whatever? And I feel mixed about it because on one hand I'm like, yeah, it's a natural consequence that they ticked you off. And they.

I think if you can say it nicely, you know, yesterday when you didn't come to my 50th birthday party, that hurt my feelings. I hope that we can work on our relationship. You can say something nicely, but if you pile it on, you're fueling the shame, which is in essence, therefore fueling the disease.

Right?

Because they know. They know darn well what they've done that's wrong or remiss.

Right.

And there's no need to point it out. They know it, you know it.

Right.

So unless you can do it in a moment, like, that opens its door to itself naturally, like, yeah, I was going to come to your party, but blah, blah, you can say, well, that made me sad and we missed you and it would have been much more fun without you.

Right.

I don't think you're going to get a different outcome as far as their use, but you're also not going to feed it, Right?

Because when you get reactive like that, I think in my opinion that that probably falls in the tough love category, right?

That definitely.

I mean, you say, well, shouldn't they have to know? And I'll say, well, are you telling it to them because you think they don't know it or you're. You're telling it to them because it feels like it's going to make you feel better. Right? Like, I just need to say this and I understand that feeling, like we've all been there.

Oh, yeah.

I'm glad my thoughts are in my head. Control most of them, because you wouldn't want to hear all that. But. But yeah. Is it punishment? Now, sometimes you may think this person, especially if it's like an alcohol issue. Like, they don't know what they did last night. And sometimes you do need to tell them. And if you're going to tell them, then just tell them. Hey, last night, you did this. Totally uncool and move on. But the whole, like, you're ruining us. You're ruining our lives. I was embarrassed.

Like, it's how you say it more than what you say.

Yes, it's the intention.

It's the intention. It's the. It's the tone. It's even the words, because no one can hear. If Amber said, campbell, you ate the.

Last bag of Doritos, she wouldn't.

I would be. But if she said it like that, I'd be like, okay, yeah, I did. But it's just like, man, I was looking forward to that last bag of Doritos. And I know you don't like them, but Bree said you ate them out of desperation.

That makes me.

I'm gonna buy more next week. I'd be like, oh, God, I feel terrible.

Right?

I'd feel terrible.

But if you came in and you were like, you always do that. You don't care about anyone. Then. Then I'm just gonn. Because that's human nature. So I think you got to think about. The questions are, why am I doing this? And what effect is it going to have?

Why what? And how?

Right. How am I going to do it? Right. Yeah. That's really the difference between the tough love and the holding boundaries. Because it could be the same thing, but if it's done differently for different reasons, in a different way, one is effective and one isn't.

And you also have to bear in mind, and you probably guys already know this, but there is a massive difference, fundamentally massive, between rules and boundaries. Rules are, you can't. You should. You must. And boundaries are, I, I can't.

I'm not going to. I am going to. I will. I won't.

And so some people use tough love as, I'm going to put out all these rules. And so, again, that if you go back to those three questions we just identified, that helps you sort of.

Right.

Discern which way that I should roll on that.

Right. Boundaries have to do with your behavior. It doesn't have to do with their behavior.

Those are rules. You're not in charge of the rules.

Right. You're in charge of the boundaries, which have to do with you. And I think that's hard. I talk about that on this channel all the time. But even for myself, like, I have to re. Remember that. Right? Because it's natural to want to get into that territory of you can or you can't and nobody.

Well, certainly not self pressed people like me. I don't like rules.

Nobody does.

If Amber said, hey, you got to wear a dress every day, I'd be like, oh, hell to the no. Even though I wear dresses almost every day, I'm just not gonna do it because it's a rule.

Yeah, May, that's all. Get along because my rule is possible. I know we don't have any rules here. I don't like rules because if you have rules, you have to enforce them. I don't. It's too much work. And follow them yourself. Just lazy like that. Right. So let's take a look at who's here with us and see if you guys have any questions about this. If you want to run a scenario by us and say, hey, where does this fall? Or how, how can I make this into a boundary? How can I say it's different? Go ahead and put it up there. Because there's a little delay in the chat and if you're watching on the replay, you can definitely put it in the comments. Because I don't answer every comment because I don't have time, but I try to and I definitely read every, every comment. And then a lot of times other people will give you some feedback too. So let's see who's here. Hey, Saska. And Mississippi. I like that. Mississippi. Katie's here. Makes me want to know why Mississippi Orient like Mississippi. It's like Mississippi, right?

Oh, I thought it was Mississippi.

I think it's like, it's kind of. I got it. I'm.

Now I'm cracking.

Come on, Campbell, you slow over there. Get with it.

I think you make me sit behind you.

Oh my gosh. Here we go. Oh, my goodness. Let's see here. P says my adult son and his wife, who are severely addictive, have completely blocked me. It's heartbreaking. I've actually, it's not exactly on this topic, Kimmel, but I've been getting that a lot. Like, what do you do when the person with the addiction cuts you off, blocks you, won't talks to you? They've set a boundary with you, basically.

Well, I think you have to be able to answer the question of why. Is it because you were coming at them in a finger wagging, negative way? Or is it because they are so shameful and they don't want you to know what they're doing and they're just going to block you to, to Continue doing isolation.

Because you're like. You can just be a reminder, even if you're not doing anything, that they're doing the wrong thing. Or maybe they just blocked you because they have another source of where they're getting their needs met now. They don't need you. I mean, I know that's cold, but.

Or they're completely just so preoccupied with their addiction that they're. They're blocking everybody but active people in their addictive world.

Right. Because it's just that consuming. So there could be a lot of reasons.

And sometimes you feel like you're being blocked. You actually haven't been technically blocked, but they're not communicating with you whatsoever. To me, that's. I'm so busy doing whatever it is I'm not supposed to be doing. And you. You point out the flashlight of shame right off. I'm done with you.

It's kind of like the difference between being blocked and when the person's mia Because a lot of times when people are, like, on these, like, binges, they'll just go MIA for days or.

Oh, that's almost always how you know that they're using.

They stop answering their phone. Yeah.

They just disappear. That's how I always knew.

Oh, yeah. That only ever means one thing. Right. All right, let's see.

Same with clients.

Oh, yeah.

When they go in, like, well, good.

That only means one thing. Katie says, I realize I have been pushing my husband for his addiction and calling it boundaries. Thank you for opening my eyes and telling him what my boundaries are versus actually setting them. Very insightful. And a lot of humility to sort of. To realize it. And I think. I'm telling you, Katie, we all do that. Like, that's our first natural instinct. And it's bizarre how you have to go at this thing.

I have a client who's actually relatively new back from treatment herself, and she lives with her older mother, and she comes in week after week, and she's like, I don't understand why my mother's not holding my boundaries. I'm like, well, tell me how you. And she said, well, I'm gonna need you, mom, to stop talking to me in that tone. I'm like, that's a rule that your mother doesn't need to obey versus a boundary, which I'm not going to engage with you.

Right.

Can you talk to me in that town?

Right.

And she's really. There's a bright, successful adult woman, and she's like, I think we're probably, like, seven weeks in. And she's Just now, like, making this, like, shift into being able to rephrase it. So.

Right. It's totally tricky, Right, because it's your job to hold your boundaries. Right. It's not another person's job to hold your boundaries. Right. No.

Yeah. And they don't. They don't like your boundaries. You can train people pretty quickly to hold, to. To honor your boundaries, but you have to be the one that trains them that they have to honor it.

And sometimes people not respecting your boundaries or whatever it's about maybe the addiction, but sometimes it's just because they're projecting onto you what they value or what they would want or not want, and they're not listening to what works for you. Like, maybe they want someone to call them 50 times a day, and so they think you want that. So there's just a lot of reasons why that can happen.

Or people don't believe you're going to hold your boundaries. So they just continue to test it.

Right. And a lot of times it's gone on for so long as they're just sort of trained that way.

For sure.

Saska says, that's what I did, too. Campbell. I said, either move out or find help in rehab. He went to rehab and made a huge difference.

Good job.

Right. And so I bet you did it.

Calmly and with softer words, which allowed him to be able to hear it and know that you meant it. And that's. Those are two important things.

And I bet this has got thought about it for a long time, too. I always say, like, if you're going to make a decision or draw a boundary like that, it needs to be well out, not like in the heat of the moment, because then you're just making an emotional decision and you're not going to hold it, because when the emotion goes away, you're going to back down. You're going to back down. Those kind of. When you set a boundary like that, that's different than tough love, because it's well thought out and it's prepped.

I remember when I had that boundary with my son. I had talked to my other children about it and my husband about it because they were like, you.

You're.

You're in charge. Like, you make this happen. And I said, I don't know when it's going to happen, but I'm thinking it's coming. Is everybody going to be okay? And they were like, yes.

Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you said that, because we didn't talk about that and said we do a whole video on this, which I think we have talked about in the past. But if it's a parent situation and you're going to hold a boundary, you have to get the other, at least the other parent and sometimes the other people in the family online because otherwise that boundary is just not going to be effective.

So the, the addict is going to come in and split.

Oh yeah.

You against everyone. That's why. Yeah. I told the other children I may do this. Here's what would happen. Are you guys okay?

Right. Especially when it comes to a situation like I'm going to need you to move out or something. Because I always say, especially with parents, both of you have to be there on that decision.

And yeah, don't set a boundary down if you guys are not on the.

Same page and you gotta wait for the one that maybe is behind. Because if you set that boundary and something bad happens, you'll hate each other forever. Right. Like you have to be the end. Right. You have to be in agreement. Okay. We're, we, we know why we're doing this. We're both ready to do this. And, and I would not. I encourage you, like maybe you're there and you're ready to set that boundary, but your partner's not. I encourage you to wait till your partner's there 100%.

I always am playing to the softest heart in the room. And sometimes I literally look at the other spouses say, we're gonna have to back up for maybe weeks or a month. Like.

Right.

We have to, we have to allow his soft heart to be in charge right now or else you guys are gonna end up divorced.

Right. Because a lot of times the stricter person, they feel like mad the other person, because you feel like they're not backing you up, but you're not backing them up either. Right. It's a two way street. Right. And so we have to really sort of back up and look at that and say, what can we both tolerate? We say this a lot. I'd rather, if it's a parent, I'd rather y' all make the wrong decision united than a split decision. Like, because a split decision never works. Right.

And you don't have to make any decision today.

Right.

Tomorrow or next week or whatever.

Debbie says this reminds me of having a 12, 13 and 215 year olds at home. Oh Lord, that'd be rough.

I can't believe you didn't go to training.

Wow. Yeah. You learn quickly how to shut down the manipulation and the guilt. Yeah. Just shut down. Be like, I'm not even playing? No. Yeah, I would imagine that's like the crash course, right, Debbie? Oh, goodness. Christine says, I love this. I try to do this, and then I lose it after a while. It's a horrible cycle. Makes you upset with yourself, and you're starting over again. I mean, I think we all do that.

Yeah, I think we all do that. And you're not starting over from the origination point. So I think that's important to notice. You are at least have made some progress. You've at least tolerated for a minute or two, and maybe you've gotten even more people on board with you that maybe you didn't have at the initial point. So that's okay.

I see a lot of family members especially, they just, like, come in to session and there's like, confession. Here's what I said. I shouldn't have said it. Like, I love that because it's just.

Like, people are like, I know you're gonna be mad. I'm like, I'm mad.

You got. You got mad. You said something. Guess what? You get another chance. Right? Like, you really.

I remember you told me that. You said. You told me about clients and about my boys. You said, you are not going to be able to do this perfectly, so don't beat yourself up because you're gonna have another opportunity about nine minutes to do it better. That was so darn true, right?

Yeah.

In literally nine minutes.

I remember they told me that doing it again in counseling school. They said, don't worry if you miss it. Like, if a client, like, you're missing the thing. Because like, they said, like, they'll just keep telling it to you till you get it. I'm like, that's kind of true. So it takes the pressure off. It does, right? Really?

We don't know what we're doing at all. You guys just tell us what to do.

And you can always go back and say, hey, I'm sorry, I shouldn't reacted that way. Right. And that. That goes a long way because you're modeling humility, and that helps them to be humble. Because lot of times when you say that, they'll come back and they say, well, I shouldn't have done this either, you know, so it's okay.

Also recognize that you're aware that you are playing a role in the family dynamic, which I think has always played out well. Like, when we see clients, because we do it like we do, they're always like, the kids like it when their parents are in there and the spouses later like it because their Spouse was in here because we redirect them, right?

Yeah. It's really interesting because you would think the people that come to see us, the ones with the addiction problem, would not want their families in here, but they do.

They love them.

They like it when their families are here because it gets better immediately. Like, I had some new clients a couple weeks ago who, who. I guess they're. Maybe their spouse had seen Kim or something and they were like, I don't know what y' all do with my wife, but I like it. That's why I'm talking to you. Yeah, they like it.

Yeah, yeah. So I had a client today who talk about later whose husband has just relapsed and he's like, oh God, are you gonna go see Campbell? And she said, tomorrow.

Oh yeah, when they're done, oh, it's.

Just gonna be a beat up session. She's like, no, it's not.

It's like, oh, I'm gonna have to.

Stop drinking again, aren't I?

Let's see. MC says good morning. Want to have a healthier lifestyle, which clashes heavily with addiction. True. I don't know how to create boundaries. And I've been asking him to follow rules. How do I make boundaries?

Boundaries Start with the word I. I will no longer tolerate this. I am no longer willing to. But here's. This is a really important thing, MC and everyone is don't set a boundary that you're not going to hold. Don't set a boundary that you are not. Dang. I'm sure you're going to live by.

And, and that word, tolerate, when you say I'm not going to tolerate anymore, that's really too vague because it's like, that's true. You gotta think, when this happens, I'm going to X, Y or Z. That's really a boundary. Like. Like this is what I'm going to do and not going to do because. Because saying to someone, I'm not going to tolerate it anymore. Well, what does that mean?

We have to define it, right?

You gotta define it.

Yeah, define it.

Say I'm getting. Yell at you.

If it happens again, I'm gonna ask you to leave. Right. If this happens again, I will probably look for another job.

Right.

If this happens again, I will not drive you anymore.

Right.

But you have to be a hundred percent sure you are not going to undermine yourself.

Right.

And do it even one more time.

And another thing that you say a lot, which I think is really smart is you don't have to verbalize the boundary. You it's more important that you say it's a contract you make with yourself.

Yeah.

You don't have to be constantly telling them this and that because you just.

Put it in play.

Yeah.

The minute you feel sick and tired of being sick and tired, you just make that decision. And there's a ton of boundaries that I have that no one in the world knows I have because there's no need yet for me to utter the sentence around them.

Right.

Like, if you spit in my face, I'm not working here anymore. I don't need to say that, because theoretically, she's not going to do that.

Because then I'm not gonna do that. But now we're an argument about it. You know, like, for those of you who are out there who have a loved one struggling, whether it's like, a spouse or it's your kid or someone else, if you need a resource, we have our groups opened up this week. We only open them up for new members a couple of times a year. And right now, our parent group, which Campbell runs, is open for new members, and our spouse's group, which Kim runs. And Kim will be on tomorrow and the next day at 1, so you get to hear from her. Are now open for new members. I put the links in the description for you in case you want to check those out. Close on Friday. Close on Friday at midnight. No more new members after that until the fall. So if you want in, now is the time. And I think the thing that's so helpful about it is, is that you and Kim give direct advice, and particularly around the topic of boundaries. And I say this to clients who talk to me a lot. Like, people a lot of times want to talk to me because y' all see me on videos. And I say the thing I'm good at is I can probably tell you, like, what the addictive person is thinking and what you should and shouldn't say to them to help them. But I'm not good at helping them protect themselves and looking out for themselves. That's the thing that you and Kim are really good at, is the boundary part on themselves. I just know how to, like, say this or do that or whatever with the addictive person.

The boundary part, as well as how to. How to create the unmanageability so we can get our result.

Oh, yeah. Faster. Yeah.

But I guess that does swing around boundaries.

Right. But I just think you and Kim do such a better job of, like, looking out for the loved one. And. And my brain just immediately thinks, like, what's going on with the addictive person, like, what are they thinking? What needs to be said or done or whatever. That's true. And I think I missed the. The other part sometimes.

Yeah.

All right, everybody, thank you for joining us. Campbell's got a runoff now because now you got to go. You've got your live call with your family group. Right. All right. We'll see you tomorrow at one o' clock Eastern time. Kim will be on here tomorrow and Thursday. And you guys better show up because Kim never gets on here.

This is rare.

It's like a double special treat. I might watch. It's amazing. So it's going to happen. So we'll see you tomorrow. Bye, everybody.

Bye, guys.