Transforming Pain into Power: Healing Betrayal Trauma

You've probably heard the saying before that time heals all wounds. Well, I'm here to tell you it doesn't heal this wound. And by this wound, I mean a betrayal trauma wound. We actually are so lucky today because we have an expert witness, as I like to call my guest, uh, Deb— Dr. Debbie Silber. And she is a betrayal trauma expert. She's been on TED Talks. She has her own podcast. She's come up with her own proven methodology for treating betrayal trauma. She trains other people to do it. I mean, she is a real-life expert. So get your questions ready. Thank you for coming on here, Debbie.

Thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation.

I think most of our audience has heard this term before and probably know the symptoms, but just in case they haven't, Um, it would be great if you would just sort of give us an overview. Plus, some of the people watching are going to be people in the camp that may feel like I have that. And the other people may be watching that are thinking my person has that. So either side. Yeah. What is it? How would you know if you had it?

Well, you know, first of all, I define betrayal as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule and every relationship has them. And the way it works is the more we trust. the more we depend on the person, the deeper the betrayal. So for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent and the parent does something awful, that's going to have a different level of impact than let's say your best friend sharing your secret, your coworker taking credit for your idea. Still betrayals, different level of cleanup, right?

Right.

But well, first of all, I'm in business 34 years, health, mindset, personal development. Uh, you don't study something like betrayal unless you have to, you know? So it's not just from the study of it, I get it. And, uh, it was first a betrayal from my family, and then I thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. It happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband. There, that was a deal breaker. Got him out of the house. I couldn't find a book, a program, a course. Usually I kind of learn my way through things, but I had 4 kids, 6 dogs, a business, and I had to get it together. So the only way I thought I could do it was Enrolling in a PhD program. Not what everybody may do once they've been betrayed, but this was so big. I needed to study it so big.

That is big. Cause I like to, when I'm dealing with something, I learn, I read all the books, but PhD, that's, that's a step further than I've taken. So impressive.

Yeah, there wasn't anything on it. So, uh, so I studied betrayal really just to help myself heal and to help my clients. And it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal and that study led to 3 groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health. My family, my work, my life.

And you're going to tell us about those discoveries today?

Yeah. And before I do, you know, to answer your question, you said, how do you know if you're still struggling? I can tell you, we see it within the PBT Institute. We see it in work, in health, in relationships. For example, in relationships, I'll see an unhealed betrayal. And this is— it could happen decades ago. I'll see it in one of two ways. The first way, repeat betrayals. The faces change, but it's the same thing. You keep going from partner to partner to partner, friend to friend to friend, boss to boss to boss, and you say, what the heck, is it me? Yes, it is. Not in that it's your fault, in that it's— there's an opportunity here. There's a huge lesson waiting to be learned. You are lovable, worthy, and deserve it.

Mm-hmm.

You need better boundaries in place. Whatever that lesson is, until and unless you get that, you're gonna have opportunities In the form of people to teach.

The universe is going to keep giving you opportunities until you figure it out.

Exactly. Yes. The second way I'm going to see it in relationships is the big wall goes up and, you know, we're like, nope, been there, done that. We're not taking the risk of letting anybody in because that hurts so badly that we're not going to risk that level of vulnerability again. We think that's coming from a place of strength. It's not. It's coming from fear that's unhealed.

Like a hard, spiky shell, like no one's getting close to me.

Exactly. And, and actually, 60— we've had, uh, and I'll share the post-betrayal syndrome, um, stats and stuff, but, you know, imagine over 100,000 people and 67% of them prevent people from getting close because they're afraid of being hurt again. So a lot of people do that.

Wow. Okay.

Oh yeah. We'll see it in, um, you know, in health. You could go to the most well-meaning doctor, coach, healer, therapist to manage a stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. At the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. And we see it at work. You know, people want that raise or promotion, but their confidence was shattered. So they're afraid to ask, or the person they trusted the most proved untrustworthy. How do they trust the boss, the coworker, the partner? It shows up everywhere. Everywhere.

It impacts every aspect of life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're dragging that in into every conversation you have, every exchange you have, all of it until it's healed.

And you're, you're, you're subconsciously bringing it into your energy, your everything.

Oh yeah.

It's not, it's not like you're directly talking about it all the time. It's more just, it's, it's following you around like a ghost.

It is because it's such a shock to the body, to the mind, to the heart. And it's not the kind of thing that we may have the best of intentions. Well, I'll leave it at the door before I walk into, you know, work, whatever. But we can't, we absolutely can't. And it, it, and we see it, we see it in the conversations that we have, in who we're willing to trust and not trust, what we say yes or no to. Uh, and it's all because it's unhealed. And the good news is you could heal from all of it, which was the third discovery. But I'd love to get to all of them if you want to hear about them.

Yeah. First, can we hear about The stages of it? Because I think that's where people are going to recognize it's either, oh yeah, that's me. You know, they're going to not just recognize it, but where they're at in the process.

Sure. That was actually the third discovery. Uh, really? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Because, and just briefly, and then I'll get to the stages. The first discovery was that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a very different way to heal. Most people treat it like it's just a regular, a different type of trauma, not to minimize any of them. They all stink, but Betrayal shatters the self. Like when you lose someone you love, right? You grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same. You don't question the relationship. You don't question your ability to trust. You don't question your sanity. You know, with betrayal, you do.

You question everything about yourself. It's your self-loss. Yes.

Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust— they're shattered. So the invitation with betrayal is not only to rebuild your life, which you need to do if you lose someone you love, you have a disease, whatever. You also have to rebuild the self. So it's a different trauma that needs a different way to heal. Most people don't realize that. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. And I can tell you that it's persistent. You know that our audience is primarily here about addiction, and we have The majority of our audience is family members, partners, spouses, parents of someone who has an addiction. And they for sure show these symptoms. And it's, it's honestly these particular symptoms is the number one thing I see hold families back and keep them stuck more than anything else. It's these symptoms.

Yeah. And I can tell you, there are so many people who come in to work with us with addictions. Those are very often the betrayers. Yeah, you know, so we, we see that all the time. So, um, do you want me to get into the second discovery? This way you'll see the symptoms.

Okay.

Yeah, so, but, but you're so right. Those— because people are choosing these addictive behaviors because they're not, you know, they're not feeling right. Something's, something's unsettled, you know. There, there's— they came from trauma. They can— never is it an excuse or a pass to betray, but we see it all the time. Anyway, the second discovery was there's actually a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. So like I said, we've had over 100,000 people take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling. And you said it in your opening, time, you know, we think we've been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true.

Can time make it worse if it is left untreated? Will it get worse?

Time keeps you stuck in— when I go through the 5 stages, it keeps you stuck in the place most people get stuck.

Okay. So you get, you just plateau, you just don't move forward. Okay.

Yeah. And, um, like we have a, there's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'll never trust again. My betrayal happened 40 years ago. I can feel the heat. My betrayal happened 15 years ago. Feels like it happened yesterday. So we know we can't count on time. We can't even count on a new relationship to heal it. Healing is deliberate and intentional. Like, for example, and I still want to get to those stats, let's say 45% of everyone betrayed has a digestive issue of some kind.

Mm-hmm.

We had a woman in our program in her mid-80s. She had a 70-plus-year digestive issue from a family betrayal. They— she was adopted. They didn't tell her. It was like one of those 70-plus years, a digestive issue. 2 weeks into healing the real issue, which was the betrayal, she healed from a 70-plus-year digestive issue.

Dude, was she pissed off? Like, 70 years after— I got kind of upset for her.

Well, right. And but what's interesting is that's also what happens when people realize staying stuck is a choice. And when they realize, when I share the 5 stages, Oh my gosh, they've been in this one stage for years and they're angry. And I try to reframe it and I said, but think about it. If you didn't know this right now, you could be in that stage for another 10, 20 years. So that's true.

Right.

If today's the day, then, then that's one day closer than another. If you didn't know this.

That's right. Today's a good day to learn it. That's right.

What's a good day like today? So you want me to share the symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome?

So in this sense, Oh yeah, let's have it.

All right. So people think it's due to stress, it's due to aging. No, it's not. This is due to your unhealed betrayal. So now imagine, and as much as you're going to hear these, these, these symptoms, hear these numbers. Ready? 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. That's just exhausting. 94% deal with painful triggers. And if you've ever had a trigger, they take you right down. These are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy. 68% are struggling with their sleep. 45%, I'm sorry, 47% deal with weight changes. In the beginning, they can't hold food down. Later on, they could be emotionally eating, putting on a lot of weight because they're eating, you know, stress eating. I mentioned about the digestive issues. Mentally, 78% are overwhelmed. 68% can't focus. 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate, you have a gut issue, you're exhausted, you still have to raise your kids, you still have to go to work, right?

Because your physical alarm bells, all your systems are going off. It's like if you, if you have a house alarm and you've ever heard that thing go off, it's like, oh my God, you can't even think when it's going off. But it's like that in your body 24/7.

24/7.

And of course you're breaking down physically, mentally, all the things.

And we're just trying to Like power through it, right? That's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness, 83% are very angry, and you're bouncing back and forth between those 2 all day long. Um, I'll just read a few more. 79% are stressed. This one killed me: 84% have an inability to trust.

Wow.

Think about what that's going to do in every interaction and conversation you have.

Right. Well, connection is a human need, not just a want, but a need. And you get sick without it. Like, it's like a vitamin deficiency, but we're, you know, yeah, you have to have that.

You're so right. And now if the majority of people can't trust, we're holding ourselves back from that vitamin, right? Um, I told you 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how. What's even more staggering about those numbers— first of all, you didn't hear me say 20%, 30%, they're super high. They're also not necessarily representative of a recent betrayal. These numbers could be from the parent who did something awful. It could be from the partner who broke your heart in high school. So that person may not know, care, remember. They may not even be alive. And here we are decades later, like that woman I shared, because of something left unhealed. The good news is you can heal from all of it. And that's the third discovery. That's the 5 stages.

That's the good one. All right.

Want to hear about that?

Yes, for sure.

Okay. So, I mean, it's what I certify our coaches in. It's all we do within the PBT Institute. I'm going to give you a boiled-down version right here. So stage 1, this is before it happens. And if you can imagine 4 legs of a table, the 4 legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, what I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing. We're so good at that, right? And kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. If a table only has 2 legs, table's going to topple over, right? And that's us. Stage 2, shock, trauma, D-Day, discovery day. Everybody remembers their D-Day.

Mm-hmm.

This is the scariest of all of the stages, and it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. So right here, we've ignited the stress response. We're now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. The mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We just can't understand what we just learned. This makes no sense. We've just had this psychological earthquake, you know, where our world is compartmentalized into 2 camps: before it happened and after it happened.

Yeah.

And our worldview is shattered. Our worldview is our mental model. Trust this person. Don't go there. These are the rules. And in one earth-shattering moment, every rule we've been holding on to is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out on us and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. It's terrifying.

Yes. I mean, you're just spiraling. You're just falling.

Exactly. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage 3. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me, Get out of my way. How do I survive this? Who can I trust? Here's the trap though. Stage 3, by far, hands down, is the most common place we get stuck. Here's why. Once you are going to recognize so many people in this stage right here, when I say it, once we realize, uh, once we've figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage 4 or stage 5. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage 4. But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we plant roots here. We park here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. And 4 things start to happen. The first thing is we start getting all those small self-benefits. We get our story. We love our story. We get to be right. We get someone to—

Back up, back up. Let's go back to the story. This is important. Tell us, what, what do you mean when you say the story? What are you talking about? And why do we get it? Because this is a big—

Yeah, we get— we like— we— I know it. I am— I know when I'm speaking to someone and I can tell they have rehearsed that story a thousand times, they have shared it that same way. They've been duped. They've been blindsided. Can you believe he or she did that? I can't believe it. And, and it becomes It just becomes who they are.

Is that like the same thing as like what they call like trauma dumping?

Yeah, because think about it, that's the conversation. And what happens is if that's the conversation— and, and I'll share the other ways, you know, we get stuck— but if this is the conversation you're having and this is the energy you're putting out, the only thing you're attracting back is more of the same, right? So you're getting confirmation, right, that, oh yeah, this is terrible, awful, horrible. Yes. And that's the only thing you're having. And then if you go to a therapist— well-meaning— but if they're not highly skilled in betrayal, it's doing more harm than good because you're feeling heard and validated and understood. You're not an inch closer to the next stage. And this is where people get really angry again because they're like, I've been going to that therapist for years. You mean to tell me I was stuck in stage 3? Yeah, that's crazy glue for stage 3.

Yeah, yeah, because it's reinforcing it.

Exactly, it's reinforcing it. And there's definitely a need to feel heard, validated, and understood. That's more of a Stage 2 thing. We need to regulate the nervous system, find ourselves on solid ground again. But if all we're doing is releasing, giving ourselves a temporary sense of relief, and nothing's changing, we're solidifying that spot in Stage 3. And the longer we're there, the harder it seems to leave because we can't imagine anything other than that. And also, this is where we'll join some lame support group, and now we found our people, right? So we sabotage ourselves because, uh-oh, they get it, they understand me. Here's where we may be healing, but we sabotage our healing because we're afraid to outgrow our betrayer, because we start believing maybe it's me, maybe I deserved it, maybe this, maybe that.

Right.

And now, because we're so unhappy in this spot, it gets worse, but I'll get you out of here. Because it feels so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go right here, we start numbing, avoiding, distracting. Here's where the addictions come in. So we'll start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, anything to get us through our day. So we do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. And I can see someone 30 years later and say, that drinking or that emotional eating, you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They'd look at me like I'm crazy. You see, it happened 30 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage 3, right? And stay there. Does that make sense?

It does. And I have a question for you. The way it shows up, um, in our practice a lot, because we see addicted family systems, I normally see the person that has the addiction. I have other coaches that see the Family member. And we see a lot of partners and spouses. And this addiction creates a betrayal trauma. And I don't even know if this is a thing or a word, but I would call it a complex betrayal trauma because it happens a bunch of times before it's over. Like there's a lot of relapses. And so it just destroys both people really.

Absolutely.

And then what we see happen is the addicted person starts to get better. But the family member can't. And when you're saying like the story, they want to talk about it. The most common thing that my people, which is usually the betrayer, like stay stuck on is the fact that their family member is so stuck and they want to talk about it all the time. And they're like, I don't know what to say. I can't make it better. I can't keep having this conversation because it like, you know, it just causes them to shame spiral every time the conversation comes up.

Yeah.

And, and that's where— and it's so sad because we see people get sober and then the family falls apart. It's like, hey, we got all the way here, you know?

Yeah.

And then they can't heal.

It's, it's a really challenging dynamic. And we have a program for the betrayer as well, and I see them healing so well. And, and sometimes their partners are so stuck because they're saying, oh great, they learned their lesson off of breaking my heart, off of breaking up the family, off of this. So it's a challenging dynamic because yes, the person who shattered the trust, the betrayer, has now learned and grown and sees things clearly. But they learned that lesson off of destroying, destroying the trust and the, and the heart of the very person that loved them the most, that they loved the most. So it's a, it's a challenging dynamic to get through, but that's exactly what happens a lot of times. And the person who's been betrayed can't let go of the anger. They solidify themselves in stage 3. They're doing it to themselves now because it's the anger, the anger, the upset of what they had to go through for that other person to learn something is, uh, they can't get past that. That's a stage 3, that's a stage 3 life. And what happens is they wind up— that's because they have all the symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome. They wind, they wind up spending a lifetime medicating and suppressing the symptoms Nothing's changing because they're drowning in stage three. So common.

Yeah, and it feels like it kind of alternates between cramming it down and exploding, cramming it down and exploding back and forth. Like it looks okay for a while, and then here it comes. You know, it's like a landmine, and then you didn't even know it was there. You know, and then it just like those triggers, the things, and then it all boils out.

Yeah, and and what's happening is what what we try to instill in them is your healing. is not about the other person. It's about so you can, you can heal, you can feel better, you can see things from a place of strength and clarity versus scarcity and fear. Because when you're, when you're like, imagine you're climbing a mountain. If you're only halfway, you only have that vantage point.

Right.

But as you go higher, you see over it, you see things differently. So for their sake, We're doing it so they get their health back, their strength back, their confidence back, their clarity back. And then, you know, whatever decision they choose to make, it's from a very strong place. But very often they have a hard time seeing the betrayer heal because they're not healing as quickly or because of how badly they're struggling.

So there can almost be like a bitterness or a resentment about the other person getting better is what you're saying.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. But that's where the education comes in, because I let them know, uh, and our coaches let them know, if you only knew what stage 4 and 5 felt like for your sake, you wouldn't waste a minute in stage 3. Because when you feel the freedom of, of a new way to think, a new way to act, a new way to react, when you experience the health benefits, when you see things from such a different healthy space, It's— you're not punishing the other person by you getting sick and sad and stuck.

Mm-hmm.

You're, you're healing so that you feel better. And then whatever you decide to do with this new relationship— the truth is, we see many 2.0 relationships when both of them do the healing. Like, for example, I'll show you something you'll never forget. This, this is what most people do, and I still want to get you to stage 4 and 5, but here's what most people do. They're in a relationship, then there's a betrayal. They're so sad, they feel so broken, they're so upset, they're so lonely, they just want that feeling to go away. So they go back, either with that person or someone new. And they do this for life. This is exhausting. So the whole idea is, when you get to stage 4 and stage 5, you're gonna feel like this. But what happens is, if you're so committed to this person or someone new, you're gonna keep sabotaging yourself.

What does that look like in, in reality when you're saying that? What does that How's that manifest?

Yeah, that means, you know what, this is— this feels good, but it's too new. It's too unfamiliar. Let me just go back to the familiar known. I know there's going to be repeat betrayals. I know nothing's changing, but it's what I know.

Oh, is it kind of like, like afraid to get my hopes up? So if I expect the worst, then I won't be hurt. Or is it that kind of thought, or is it something else?

Yeah, it's kind of like that, but it's like I, I don't want to change because if I change, I see things differently from this space.

Right.

And the person I'm dealing with is here. So if instead I just, I just try to put it behind me as best I can without really doing any work to change, then I can continue to make this work. But we do this, right? But then what happens is we're like, but I like it up here. Why can't they do this? They're not ready, you know. So then eventually we get this.

Wait, wait, wait. Sometimes this person down here reach up and grab this person and yank them down there? Because I feel like I see that sometimes.

Yeah, because what happens is this person says, uh-oh, it's not gonna work if this person's up here. So let me love bomb them. Let me throw them off kilter. Let me— I have to do something so they come down here because I don't really want to make those changes.

Okay, I'm not ready.

I'm not willing. So if if they're doing this, I'm I better knock them down. That's the only way I can keep this. You see? So they're going to sabotage. They're going to do all they can. Who do you think you are? You're never going to get better than me. What do you you know whatever all those.

So they might sabotage by love bombing or pulling you in, or they might sabotage by instigating like an old argument to come back or something like that.

Yeah, or chipping away at their self-esteem. Oh yeah, just because if they chip away, you know, what do you think? Who do you think you are? You think you're that great? No, if they chip away, then this person who's— it's really fragile on this right up. So then they say, oh, you know what, maybe they're right. Okay, and, and then they stay.

Is it, is it just one? Is it usually the betrayal or the betrayer or the betrayed up here, or it just flip-flops and it can be either side.

It depends on the person. It depends on the relationship. Sometimes let's say it's a betrayer and they're like, what in the world? Who, who was that? I gotta, I gotta get my act together. Like, oh my gosh, there's remorse and empathy and apology. And how do I make this up to you? And this person is just not willing because they, they feel like they lost control of everything. So the only thing they have control over Is withholding forgiveness, let's just say. And they're using it as like a power move because—

But maybe not consciously. No, no, it's not like they're having that thought, right? It's more like, yeah, yeah, they're just in so much pain.

So they're seeing this person, they're like, oh, look at you, you're all great now, but you destroyed me.

Nope.

And they can't even get past them. They're blinded by their own anger and, and, and upset. Rightfully so, you know. I mean, they were following the rules of the relationship and this person didn't. But then again, now they woke up, they see it clearly. So we never know. It's— we see it in so many different ways. Ideally, what happens is they both completely crash and burn and say, that's it, I'm doing this, whether they're the betrayed or the betrayer. The other one's like, I better step up my game. And then they meet up again up here. Like, for example, Uh, like with my family, there was really nothing to work with. I healed and moved along. Um, with my husband, as 2 totally different people, I did this on his own. He did this. We married each other again.

Wow.

But you know, both of us were 2 very different people up here.

Okay.

You know, interesting. But you don't know when you're doing this. You have no idea what's going to happen. And that's the scary part because people settle. For— but I know this. This is what I know. Even if it stinks, even if it means relapse, even if it means the unknown, even if it means I live in a state of hypervigilance, even if it means I'm struggling with all of these symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, I can count on that. I know this, right?

It's predictable, it's reliable, it's consistent. That's it.

But this is new health. New, you know, very new level of relationship, either with the person who hurt you in a very different way or with someone totally new. Because when this is who you are and this is where you live and this person doesn't budge, right, eventually, you know, you get this. But this can't help but show up because this is who you are now. You're unwilling, yeah, to play over here. This is the only thing you attract, right?

Right.

You know, like when I did this, I, it was like, okay, that's, I have no idea what's going to happen, you know, in my marriage. I wasn't counting on any of this, but this is who I am now. And I'm working towards this for my kids' sake, for my clients' sake. And then on my own, on his own, my husband's like, what, what in the world? So he did this and that happened.

I see, I see that definitely happen on both sides. The most common way we see it with addiction is the addicted person starts to get better. The traumatized person stays stuck. And I feel so bad for them because like they know it. And so they'll like be, they'll be good. They'll be on their good behavior. They'll hold it all in and then something will happen and then they lose their mind and they're like, I shouldn't have done that.

And so the 3, they can't help it.

And they're like, it's this terrible cycle.

Yeah. And because in Stage 3, they can only think Stage 3 thoughts, right? They can only do Stage 3 things. That's all they have access to.

Right.

When they move to Stage 4, Stage 4 thoughts, Stage 4 moves. Stage 5, Stage 5 thoughts, Stage 5 moves. But they're only— they're keeping themselves in the spot where that's, that's the best they can do. Numb, avoid, distract, minimize, try to outrun it, Right. Try to be okay with it, but nothing's really changing.

But then, like in that circumstance, the betrayer, when that happens, there's this thought of, well, I deserve it. I caused this. And we keep spiraling. Or it can be in reverse. Like if the addicted person doesn't get better and eventually the family member moves on, man, let me tell you, they really get stuck. Because not only are they emotionally stuck, but they're pouring so many substances on the top, the chances that they can come out of it or they can even see it.

Yeah, yeah, slimmer and slimmer. Especially when they're stuck in their shame. I mean, shame is the most debilitating emotion we have. It does nothing for the person who caused the pain or who was, you know, addicted, and it's doing nothing for the person they hurt. So how do you heal shame? You bring light to it, you bring honor to it. So for the person who's feeling shame, when they do every single thing in their realm and their, you know, their ability to right the wrong, pay it forward, do whatever They can begin to grow and begin to heal. And then when they're doing that, the person they hurt has to do their own work, but then they can learn to see, oh, this person does get it. They are very different. And it is, it's one of those things where they'll start to see it, not even from the big things, from the little things. Like, wow, in the past they never would have said that. They never would have done that. It's in those daily little micro moves. It's a different look, different look in the eyes.

Can you talk to us? Because, um, you— and I love, I love this because you talk about the difference in recovery and transformation.

Yeah.

Can you talk to us about that a little bit?

Yeah, sure. Uh, so, you know, I use this analogy of a house. Um, it just, it really explains it. And let's say there's an old house. Uh, this is the, the difference between resilience and transformation. Let's say the house needs a new Roof. You get a new roof. That would be resilience. You're restoring it. Or it needs a new paint job and you paint. You're— that's resilience. You're restoring it. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels the house.

Mm-hmm.

A new roof's not going to fix it. A new paint job's not going to fix it. Both won't fix it. Now here's the thing. You have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say, this is the most terrible, awful, horrible thing that's ever happened. And you'd be right. And you can call over everybody you know and say, look at this, isn't this the worst thing you've ever seen? They'd all agree. You have every right to mourn and grieve the loss of your house until your last day. However, should you choose to rebuild the house— you don't have to, but if you choose to— why would you build the same house? There's nothing there, right?

Plus, you, you know, there was things about that other house you didn't like anyways.

Exactly.

You always wanted that sun porch or that, you know, those hardwoods or whatever.

That's the opportunity.

Build it back like you want it.

That's it. So you have an opportunity to build something that never would have existed had the experience not happened. That's trauma well served. That's what's missed when we keep trying to overlook, not deal, medicate, suppress our symptoms. That's, that's patching up the house, patching up the house. People are so afraid of that death and destruction of the old though, but that's the only way you birth the new.

Yeah.

Only way, whether it's a new you or new collective you in a very different way.

And that, that is transformation. And I say all the time, you know, people say, how can you, how do you do this work all the time? Listen, all my favorite people are in recovery. I'm going to say the reason you heard that, because you don't just come out of it and you're back to your old self. You can't come out on the other side of this. I say this all the time.

No, you will.

You have to be stronger, better, person, like the level of insight, humility, self-reflection, you're just, you build these muscles that regular humans don't have, because there's no way. If you get on the other side of it, it's like climbing that mountain, you're gonna have some bigger calf muscles or whatever. Like, there's no way to get there without it.

Exactly. And you know what it is, too? It's because you are intentionally and deliberately recreating yourself. And you know, I have a saying I've been using this 34 years that I've been in business, it holds true for just about every topic. And it's Hard now, easy later. Easy now, hard later. Take your pick, it's one of those two.

Mm-hmm.

And when it comes to healing from betrayal, it is hard now, easy later. Because when a thought comes in, before, before you process it, you're like, wait a second, was that the old me? And this new me that I'm creating, would he or she say that, think that, feel that? If not, it's not coming along. And so what you're doing is you're taking all the parts you love and you're leaving behind everything that no longer serves.

And that's exactly the same, exact same process that the addicted person goes through. I have the thought, I call them monster mouths, you know, have the thought and then you say, is that really true? Is that, you know, where's that coming from? What was it really telling me? And you decide what to do with that thought.

Exactly.

It's a parallel process.

Yeah. But what most people do, they do the easy now, hard later. But, and now I know I can already hear the people saying, But it stinks. What do you mean easy? This is really hard. Yes, in that it's really uncomfortable and it's painful, the situation you're living in. Easy now because you're not doing those, those mental changes, those physical changes to change your existing situation.

Right.

So when I say hard now leading to the easy later, I'm saying challenging every single scenario. Like where if the old you Let's say a boundary was crossed and you're like, "I don't have the head to deal with it." Uh uh. There's no more this. All of it. You're questioning all of it.

Yeah, it's it's a rebuilding. It's a whole new. It's a whole new world.

You're building a new house.

Do you see how long does it take to build a new house?

You know, it has. It's such a great question. It has more to do with willingness than time. Because I do the word choice earlier, that might rub people wrong.

Is that— I know part of it, but tell us about that.

Like, you know, it's, it's really interesting because there's a reason why therapists are very, very busy with betrayed partners, and I appreciate that because it could take years just talking about it, talking about it, talking about it until they meet somebody else or whatever. No, our methodology is it's quick. It's quick, but that's because you're realizing I deserve so much better than this. I deserve to get my health, confidence, you know, relationships that I want back in a new and different way. So it's, um, it's about the transformation. It's about using the biggest pain you ever had as a catalyst to your transformation where I would say the majority of people, uh, are very comfortable with the story, and they would rather have, um, they would rather have the story. Now, that's not to say even when someone says, no, no, no, I want, I want to experience this transformation, the move still can be incremental, but the goal is the same. The goal is I'm going to use this experience to create a version of me that never would have been created otherwise.

Right.

Where that's, that's not, that's not the same goal with other people who've been betrayed.

And well, with, and to like most people that have this can recognize that it's turned them into somebody they don't like anymore. And most people for sure can realize, I don't like this version of me that I've become. And I don't want to be this anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because think about it. Look how much power you're giving the experience. Not only has it broken your heart and broken your trust. Now it's making you sick. It's making you untrusting. It's making you just turn into this version. You're like, who am I? I don't like, I don't like how I'm showing up at all.

Professionally, it just turns you into a crazy person.

It does.

I mean, there's just no nice way to say it. It does. And when it's happened to you, you know, you're like, I'm a crazy person. Like, yeah. And then you're all over about it.

Nobody, nobody, uh, experiences the, the, this type of trauma Just to become a crazy person, right?

No, right. You can feel it, but you but it's like you know you feel like I can't really control it.

Yeah, but it's that stage two, and you can't in stage two. That's why you got to get to stage three. Get yourself on solid ground again, but don't stay there. Then get yourself into stages four and five so you can create this version of you that is just so much healthier, so much happier, so much more confident because. Of what you learned, right?

Right. And you come out the other side transformed, the totally remodeled you.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I tell you how many people we see in stages four and five, new, very new and different relationships, new businesses. I can't tell you how many new businesses are like the PBT Institute. That was a stage five thing. I didn't have access to stuff, thoughts like that earlier on. Marrying my husband. Again, that was a Stage 5 thing. We see stuff like that all the time, new levels of health. When we're stuck in our trauma, we're drowning in trauma soup, you know. We can't think of anything outside of that except getting through our day, right?

It takes over everything.

Yeah, but there's so much more, so much more if we're willing. Like, if we knew what Stages 4 and 5 felt like We wouldn't waste our time in stage 3 for him.

What does it feel like?

You know, it feels, it feels so empowering because it's earned. You know, it feels, it feels joyful because you're seeing things from a perspective of you've been there and back.

Yeah. There's a, there's a sense of pride.

Oh, enormous sense of pride. You know, it's like if something was given to you versus earned.

Right.

You've earned this. It feels, it feels very different. And the choices you're making are coming from such a different place.

Confidence is just completely like transformed.

Confidence, self-love. You appreciate yourself. You start giving yourself the same love, guidance, support you give everybody else.

Right.

You know, because you realize, wow, look what I've been through. And all, and also things that seem so monumental, you're like, if I could get over that, that's nothing.

Perspective.

Yeah, definitely perspective.

Absolutely. Do you have time to answer a few questions for our people who are on here live? Oh, I'd love to. Live chat. Okay. Yeah. Um, Bree's gonna select some questions. So if you're watching, we don't get this opportunity much. We have a real life Betrayal trauma. I'm like a total expert here. So now's the time. Break out the questions. And as you're getting those questions up there and Bree's finding them, I did put a link to Debbie's website is down there. The other resources are down there. So make sure you check those out. Is there another place where they should look for you other than your website?

I mean, I'm all over, but everything can, you know, is from the website, the PBT, as in Post Betrayal Transformation, the PBT Institute. Okay, good.

And it's linked down there, and I will put it after the video release. I'll put it in the comments too, so people.

Great.

All right, Bree, what do we got? We got some good questions. All right, Michelle says, "Can you talk about how to manage personal regulation after your addicted loved one is verbally abusive when drinking, and then normal the next day like nothing happened?" Ooh, this is a good question because it's common.

Yeah, yeah, it's really hard because. Uh, you know, the, the, the drinking is taking away from their responsibility, right? They don't even know what they're saying probably at the time. So, um, that's where the personal boundaries have to come in. So maybe you just, you just refuse to listen, you know, you just walk away, or you're just not around to hear that. And then, um, something has to change. This is the dynamic and the pattern that's been set up.

Right.

And then the next day it's like nothing happened. And then so whatever you're doing just to Okay to move through that. That dynamic, that setup, that pattern has to be shockingly broken for something to change. Because when the pattern is has been set up, that's the expected behavior, result, response, and nothing changes if nothing changes.

And it really is about changing the pattern. Like if you've always been super nice about it, maybe you should get a little tougher about it. If you've always been super hard hard about it, maybe you should get a little nicer. Is you have to shift the pattern. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And until that pattern shifts, it's really impossible to expect anything different.

And so like with what Michelle's saying, you know, you're feeling dysregulated because last night the person did or said or whatever, all these crazy things, which they either don't remember legitimately or are pretending not to remember because they don't want to deal with it. And then of course that's insulting and every kind of thing to you. And so you want to tell them about it. Well, last night, blah blah blah. And then what does that person do? They either they do something to make you stop because it makes them feel uncomfortable. So they either put their spikes out and say and do more horrible things, or gaslight, or darvo, or something, or they just say, "I'm really sorry. I'm not going to do that." You know, anything to get you to stop. And then it just the cycle keeps happening.

And Michelle, I would really invite you to take out a calculator or your phone and. And really assess how many times has this, this exact or close to exact scenario happened. And you will see how deep that pattern is, and it needs a pattern interrupt. And it sounds like that pattern interrupt is going to be coming from you.

Right, as in when that begins early in the stages, you just remove yourself. You just don't, you don't leave yourself If there's a way. Now, sometimes it's complicated, you know, if it's your spouse and you have little children. I'm not saying it's easy, but you have to, you have to get out of that pattern somehow.

Something different, something to, something to, to shift the, the flow of what's happened over and over and over again, because it's almost like you don't even, you don't even have to hear the words. It's the same thing.

It's a script. It's predictable.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, that's what needs to be broken because when a version of you who realizes you deserve better doesn't act, react, perform the same way as you were, the person who's saying and doing the damage says, oh, wait, what? We don't usually do it like this. That's what you want.

It gets their attention. Like, it's like now they're paying attention, right? So like sometimes I'll tell people, like, if you're usually angry about it and yelling and screaming, maybe you should let your sadness show because I know it's in there. And if you're always sad and you cry about it all the time, then maybe you should let your madness show. You know, you gotta, you gotta shift the gears. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dramatic shift in this pattern. Absolutely.

What else we got, Bri? All right. Stephanie says, how do you deal with a party? Who always brings up their past to blame you for how they feel today when it's not related to you. If they're stuck in blame and trauma, how do we enjoy each other? Yeah.

Well, that sounds like somebody who is deeply, deeply stuck in stage 3. So what— it's so common. I hear so many people who are like, I have no reason not to trust my partner, but my last few partners betrayed me. So I'm just, I can't help it. I'm going into this with the same thing. That person is not healed. So until and unless they are, they're sort of, you know, projecting that onto you. And then we hear self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It's like when this is what we think will happen enough, we create it. Uh, yeah, saying you're gonna do these things, but that's what this person is expecting because they're only going by what they know and by their prior experience.

Right.

If it's not changed yet.

You always, everyone leaves me. You know, I'm going to get left or abandoned, and then because of that, they push people away. Then guess what happens? Yeah, they left.

This person is stuck in stage three, and until they get into stages four and five, they're only going to recreate stage three because that's all they know.

Right, and they're not doing it consciously. No, but they, but it is happening. All right, Mary says. Where do I take my mind in the early days when a week ago he was buying me perfume and then moved out of the house with his when his addiction was exposed again and hasn't checked in? So it's like being so nice, bought me perfume, everything was great. Then his addiction came out and now he's left the house. Won't won't even talk to me.

Yeah, this is it has not Mary. What I would first the first thing is even though it's happening to you, it has nothing to. Do with you. It's not about you. It's not about you. So it sounds to me like the first thing is untangle the thought that this has anything to do with you.

That's something you can hear that that's in here because it's like, last week he was buying me perfume and now he won't talk to me. So what's the deal with that? So it's like you can hear that there's some thought about like, why is he reacting to me these certain ways?

Yeah, because it's about him. It's not about you. So the more you realize it's not about you and the more healing You do. You know, here's here's something that I would invite you to do, Mary. When we think of you know best case scenario, we only have 100% of our time, right? If we're taking 40, 50, 60%, why is he doing this? Why is he saying this? Why is he acting like this? We only have the rest for our own healing and support. So what I would say is whatever you can harness back, 10%, 20%, 30%, use that for your healing again. You're not making any decisions now, but you're healing so that you see things from a place of strength and clarity. Versus scarcity and fear.

What does that mean? Use that for your own healing. Like, what does that mean?

Instead of the focus being because the entire focus is why is he doing this? Why is he acting like this? Why is he behaving like this? He used to do this. He he he he he. What I'm saying is when we're only focused on the other, we're not focused on ourselves. It is his issue that's affecting you. But we need to get you strong so that his actions, his words, his behaviors don't debilitate us the way they've been.

Right.

So the stronger we get, the more secure we get, the healthier, the more healed we get, we see that behavior in a, in a new way that forces him to either step it up, or you're at least seeing things from a much stronger Right.

The more secure you are, it's about getting your security back because sometimes people think well, it's about like doing the thing you said, like not being able to connect to people, not trusting again, pushing people away. They think that that's healing, but it's not.

It's not. They think it's coming from a place of strength. It's not. It's they're they're becoming hardened, not healed.

Right. What else we got, Bri? Sophia says. How to get over an excessive need to control after? Now Sophia's asking the right question. Getting betrayed. I feel like this has occupied my whole mind and I always anticipate something happening. This is a good question.

Yeah, he has.

There's a little bit more. He has lost some trust in me because of things that he thinks I did to him during his amphetamine intoxication. What you're saying is like he has some paranoid thoughts. This happens a lot with. Like he thinks you did certain things, and I didn't do it. It hurts me that he thinks that that I betrayed him.

So it's like I didn't hear the first part. So did she betray?

And now what she's saying is she's having obsessive thoughts, wanting to control. He had a methamphetamine addiction. Okay. So she's the betrayed. But in his methamphetamine addiction and psychosis, he has a paranoia and thinks. She betrayed. Okay, which, which happens. So this is like a double complicated here.

Yeah, yeah. You know, here's the thing, you can't convince anyone of anything, and somehow it's suiting him to believe what he wants to believe about you. You can't control that. And in fact, trying to prove all the reasons why that's not the case is only going to make you sick and sad and stuck, and you've seen you're getting nowhere fast. So again, you know, this is about how do you strengthen— you, you, you, you know what you did or what you didn't do. Stay true, stay strong in that. But to spend the effort on convincing somebody, I have yet to see that ever work one time, especially when it comes to a delusion, Sophia.

You can't— that's what a delusion is. It's It's a falsely held belief despite evidence. And the more you try to give them evidence, the more complicated the delusion becomes. But this is super interesting because this is like this other person, he has betrayal trauma even though he wasn't betrayed. Yeah. Like he could be stuck in the, he could be stuck in like a stage 2 or 3, even though it didn't even happen. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's about a perceived hurt or wrong. Yeah.

But that comes from somewhere. And that needs to be looked at, assessed, worked through, not ever making any action okay. But that's where the work comes in, because this is a person— I mean, think about it, anybody, anybody who's addicted to anything, they're doing that for a reason, to escape something instead of facing it, feeling it, healing it. So they've chosen that. So clearly there's something there that needs to be looked at. And, and, you know, there was some sort of betrayal somewhere, or even betrayal of his own expectations of Maybe what his parents should have been doing, or who? I have no idea. I don't know the experience. But either way, that's being projected onto you now. You cannot—

maybe past relationship, maybe anything, right? Yeah.

Okay.

What else do we got, Bri?

These are great questions.

That was a— that was a doozy right there. It's like a double. Yeah. Yeah, she's pulling us on. Okay. Um, Kalisa says, how are you supposed to heal while still being married?

You know, this is a really— this, this is a hard one, and there are so many layers and levels to this. And it's not for me to say, you know, what's right or wrong for someone, but I can tell you, if nothing changes, nothing changes. So, um, some people have You know, an in-home separation. Some people have a drastic and dramatic shift of boundaries. Whatever it is, what will not work— we have so many people coming into the PBT Institute with like therapy trauma, counseling trauma. If you're going to, let's say, couples counseling— again, well-meaning counselors— but if the goal is just to get you okay without that betrayer clearly seeing what they've done and without the betrayed Doing the work to heal, they're just getting everything minimized, and the the betrayer just sort of gets like a slap on the wrist. And we've heard people are like they say to the betrayed, "Well, you know, if you just communicated better," or if you I mean this has nothing. Someone's actions have nothing to do with you. It's not a mistake; it's a choice. So someone choosing to betray, uh, can't be, can't be minimized. So whatever you feel is the most dramatic move you can make in the scenario you have, do not expect it to be easy though. Again, if it's not gonna shake things up, it's not going to create the change.

Okay, so, so it's not about whether or not you have to leave or you stay. There's no rule about it. But it, but what you are saying, there's got to be a shift. So if you're still playing the same old roles, still just doing the same old things, you're gonna get the same result.

You're just trying to, you're trying to patch up that house.

Okay.

When we need a full remodel, you know, it's this, it's like the same thing I get all the time. People say about the kids, you know, now, like in my scenario, my husband was the one who told my kids. So if anything has you wake up, it's realizing you just lost all the people that meant the most. Because when you have your kids looking at you like, you did what? You know, so, so that's profound. And so many people— and this is so common— where the betrayed protects the betrayer to their own detriment, at their own expense. So let's say they don't tell the kids. And again, I'm not here to say what's right or wrong for you and your family, but they protect the betrayer. And if the betrayer is okay with that, How much change is the betrayer really doing if they're willing to throw you under the bus in that way? Your kids are really smart and really perceptive. They know something's off. And if you're covering for the way you're behaving, if you're covering for the betrayer, where's the healing? Where's— where are your needs being met? Be very clear.

What if you're doing that because in your mind you're protecting— you're not protecting the betrayer, you're protecting your kids.

And it's so common.

From knowing it.

Yeah, well, here's the thing, and I've seen it many different ways. First of all, kids are so resilient, and I have seen— I can even— I could just speak personally for myself. Uh, the kids saw me crash, they saw me rise, and the skills they have now as adults is way more powerful than them just seeing, you know, me struggling and silent and sick and all of that. Now There are other scenarios where the kids don't know. Maybe they're too young, or maybe they are just trying to protect them. Oh, you know, the wedding's coming up, we don't want to shake things up, we don't want to, you know, the kids' wedding, whatever. And, and like I said, I am not here to say what's right or wrong, but, uh, what I would— what I can say, just even not even from my own coaches that I've seen or whatever, from my own personal experience, yes, it's hard, but I've seen Tremendous strength in my own kids that wouldn't have happened if they didn't see that.

It's not so much about what you're doing, it's about why you're doing it. Yeah, not so much about whether you should or shouldn't tell the kids, it's about why am I either choosing to tell it— am I telling the kids because I'm mad at the person I'm trying to punish them? Am I telling the kid— am I not telling the kids because it's about the why? Not the right thing. Yeah.

And, and more, even more to that is take a look at, at the betrayer. If the betrayer is perfectly fine seeing you struggle and suffer in silence, how, how does that feel and work within your relationship? Something to look at.

Uh, Heidi says, how Do you tell my addicted loved one that I have trauma from their addiction over the years?

Yeah, you know, it's— are they ready to hear it? Are they able to hear it if they're still, you know, addicted? Are they checked out? Are they facing it? Are they ready? This takes a full crash and burn. So do they have the space to hear this? Uh, but the true healing happens when, like I said, everything crashes and we look at it as, I'm just going to avoid— Is being built. We've all heard of the butterfly, you know, going into the cocoon. That butterfly is willing to be deconstructed, emulsified, unrecognizable from anything it once was, Only because it went through that does it get to be the butterfly. It's messy, not gonna lie.

Just to play a little devil's advocate here, because I am usually the one that's seeing the betrayed, so I am the devil's advocate, honestly. What I hear from that side of the point of view is that their loved one wants to tell it to them over and over and over again. And a lot of my clients will say, no matter what the fight starts about, could just be regular stuff. And then the betrayed maybe does or says something out of bounds. They'll say, well, it's your fault.

Okay.

You did this. I'm not saying that's what's going on with you, Heidi. It's just that your question sparked me to remember that. I'm not saying that's what's happening here.

And I can tell you that all happens in stage 3. As you move to stage 4, It's a different conversation. It's— that's not happening. When that's happening, sometimes it's just a reminder to let that person know, don't you forget what you did to me.

Yeah, it's about the why you're telling it. And, um, I— what do you think about this? Because I usually tell people, instead of saying, um, to someone what they're doing or did wrong, just tell them what you need. Just say, man, it would just help me so much if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you're asking for what you need to feel better, trusted, loved, connected to whatever. Because a lot of times it's like, if we think, if we tell them what they did wrong, they're going to learn a lesson and they're going to do better. But a lot of, for a lot of people, it just makes them defensive and they really just make it worse because then they say a bunch of terrible things and they make it worse. Yeah. But most people respond okay to just being said, you know, it would really help me if you would call me when you're leaving work and you're on your way home, whatever it is. If you just ask for what you need, they'll do better usually.

You know, and I love that. And I'll add to that. And then I'll say, because a lot of people just don't even understand. And so I would add to it and say, it's totally fine to say, even though you may not understand it, it's okay. It's just what I need. Because that takes them off the hook of, I, I, but I don't understand why he or she needs this. It doesn't matter. You don't have to understand it. It's just what I need.

Yeah. Sometimes you can even say, I know I'm probably being super hypersensitive here, but this would really help me. And people can, people can hear, there's a lot more likelihood that they'll hear it. They'll understand what you're telling them and they'll give you what you need instead of just being defensive and trying to turn it on you and all that stuff that Yeah.

Again, it's noticing that pattern. If that's the same setup that happens all the time and it's not bringing you the result you want, it needs to be changed. Yeah.

Amber says, can you give suggestions on how to help healing get started for the person that was betrayed besides therapy? Because I'm already in that. Yeah.

Well, as I said, well-meaning therapists, I know I certify a bunch of them and If you're only feeling heard, validated, understood, it's keeping you in stage 3. You learn the stages now. Well, actually, I didn't even get you to stages 4 and 5, but you know if you're in stage 3, you need to get out of stage 3 into stage 4 where your transformation begins. So I would suggest finding out if your therapist is very qualified in betrayal. A PBT coach is certified in moving you through the stages. But if you're just reinforcing stage 3, it's very hard to heal because—

If your therapist is just making you feel heard and understood or just encouraging you to leave, which I'm not saying you shouldn't leave, I'm just saying that's not healing you. If your therapist is encouraging you to work on you, then that's a good sign.

And healing also, it doesn't just— we think, okay, well, we'll just do talk therapy and, you know, emotionally get some, some healing done. This is, um, betrayal hits us on every level, so every level needs to be addressed. It's very incomplete healing if we just talk about it. It's somatic. The issues are in the tissues. Like, it's a multi-pronged approach to the somatic healing.

Yeah. Let me ask you this. I can't believe this question hasn't come up, so I'm just gonna throw it out there because this is the big— yeah. One of the first things that happens to you when you're in stage 2 and you've had this and you're in the really spiraling stage, almost always the person feels like what's going to make them feel better is to know every single thing that happened. They want to know every detail. And I'm always like, oh, what's your take on that? Like about whether you should get all the details, you shouldn't get all the details, you should ask for them, you should give them, whatever side you're on? Because that almost always comes up.

Well, you know, it's, it's a— there are many answers to this question, but I'll say it like this. If you're going— you're not even ready to rebuild something when you're in stage 2. But if you're going to rebuild something, it can't be on a shaky, unstable foundation. It needs to be on something rock solid. So that's where a full disclosure comes in. Where it's a— it's just, it's the throw-up of what happened, all of this, so that the person can realize, okay, there are no more lies, there's no more deception, there's no more of this, and I can start to rebuild. Now, having said that, the, the— some of the details, um, they're not necessary. But if the betrayed is, is not hearing a lot of it, and in their mind they're saying there's more that this person hasn't told me, they will never trust. You can't rebuild, uh, when there's, um, when things, you know, are just— when the hypervigilance will always be there, the untrust will, you know, the mistrust, the lack of trust will always be there until, uh, they feel like they know what they're working with.

Right. But what if they, what if they have heard it all, but they still feel that way?

Yeah, they're going to feel like that in stage 2. Until they get to stage three, and then it becomes debilitating for them to learn more details. Me heal? No, it won't.

No, it won't.

That's you need enough details so that you could say, "I know what I need to know now." Now it's about me.

I get the big picture of what happened, but I'm telling you, you did not want to scar yourself by hearing every. Single tiny little detail, because once you know them, you cannot unknow them. You cannot, and you will relive them over and over, especially at night.

And then you can't sleep, and that's when you do a lot of your healing.

Oh yeah, yeah. Okay, Bree, are we out of time? Okay, I thought we were. All right, thank you so much, Dr. Silver. This was awesome. This was so needed on both sides. I'm so glad you were here, and thank you for everyone who showed up live. You guys asked Very good question. Very challenging questions. And I'm glad you asked them because other people watching this want to know the answer to those questions that you asked. So we'll see you guys next Thursday. If you're watching on the playback, we're live every Thursday. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next week. Bye, everybody.

Thank you.