Unconscious Ways You Could Be Sabotaging Your Loved Ones Recovery Process

You get me? And today we're talking about why ways and why the parents sabotage or even spouses, why we sabotage our loved ones recovery. And we do this for one big reason and it's really because we're avoiding the situation because we don't want it to be what it is and we don't like it and we just don't want to do it. So we create all these reasons that we should avoid it and we create a sort of a safe space in which to do it until it doesn't work. So today I want to talk about like I want to use the metaphor and I don't know if you guys have all seen. There's a fabulous movie out there. It's a Tom Hanks movie. It's called the Terminal. And in the Terminal it's about a man from another country, doesn't matter, like a, like a Polish kind of country. And he lands in New York at jfk and he is in legal limbo. He does not have the right paperwork. And while they're sort of sorting that out in customs, the news comes on that his country of origin is in complete disarray. They've had a big revolution. There's revolt going on. So he can't come into the US because there's any papers and he can't go home because there's this revolution happening. So he's in no man's land. He's sort of a man without a country. And in this, in order to survive, which hopefully at the beginning he thinks is just going to be for a day or so, he just sort of figures out like are to sleep and like how to like eat out of trash cans, like just to survive. But as it unfolds and he realizes it's not going to end, he creates this sort of world, this life that he's going to live there. It's awkward, it's bizarre, it's weird. But he needs it to work for himself. So he actually finds an unused wing in the airport and he takes apart some of the airplane seats and he creates like a bedroom and he covers the windows and you know, he can deal with the sound from the planes taking off and on. He sort of creates this bedroom. Then he decides we just don't want to eat out of trash cans anymore. So he starts to observe that you get a quarter when you return the, the luggage trolley. And so he's like. So he starts patrol the entire airport. Remember this is jfk, so it's huge. He. There's dozens and dozens of unattended or just left abandoned trolleys every day. So he piles them all up and pushes them in and gets like quarter after quarter after quarter. Well, now he can go to Burger King and buy a burger. And so he builds that. So he sort of starts this business and he develops a social life. He befriends different proprietors, the janitor, just different people in the airport who become his friends who check on him. And then ultimately he meets this flight attendant and they develop this flirty kind of friendship. So he has this life, okay? He is ultimately, like, maybe halfway through the movie, he's shown the way to leave. They're like. Because they're watching him on the cameras and they realize this man is actually building a really fabulous life and he may live here forever. So they're like, we can't have this. Like, this is not a good precedent. We can't have this going on. So the head of the customs guy area goes down and meets him and says, hey, I'm just going to open the door. I'm going to. The security guard is going to walk away. And you, you just go on into New York and I'm going to pretend I don't know that you're out there with no papers, like you're just going to go be a US Citizen. Go be. So they set all this up, you know, one o', clock, come on down, we're cool, we won't look. And he goes at the appointed time, but he doesn't leave. He can't make himself go through the airport door out into the big bad world of New York. It's too frightening. He doesn't like it and he's afraid of it. He doesn't know if he'll do well in it. So he goes back into the airport and he continues this life. And what I wanted to talk about today is kind of like how this compares to what we do when our loved one has an addiction. Because we find ourselves in this horrible no man's land of having this person we love dearly be either addicted to alcohol or drugs. And we don't like it. So we sort of sabotage their recovery because of that, which is because we're in this untenable space, which I would sort of look like a large waiting room if you wanted to refer to it like that. And we hope that there'll be, like this miracle. And these, these what I'm getting ready to talk about. These reasons are reasons that people have actually told me so far this week. These are reasons why they don't want to do what I want them to do. This is why they don't want to research treatment or even begin to squeeze their person into the funnel of seeing. Does the person actually need treatment? There's a miracle coming. It's not really that bad. They probably shouldn't have made the appointment that they. They might have overreacted. If only we could get him a job. If only we could keep him busy. If only we could be nicer to them. So there's the if onlys, which are endless. A lot of people are just waiting for their person to get it. I hear that a lot. Like, oh, we don't need doing that. He's going to figure this out. Then there are the holidays that are coming up, and ultimately there's the shame and the embarrassment that we feel. That sort of keeps us stuck in this, because to go forward would be to publicly admit and be viewed as, you know, that family. So we do kind of what Tom Hanks does in that movie, which, by the way, is a great movie and totally watchable, and I highly recommend it. But we do exactly what he did, which is, I got stuck in this place I don't want to be in, and I can't sit in the discomfort of it because it's. It's too gross. So I'm going to build this life where I'm going to figure out how to function in it, even though outside looking in. This is completely bizarre. Are right. If our families and our friends saw how we live when we're trying to, like, pretend there's not an addiction or not a big problem going on, they'd be like, what are they doing? But when you're in it, it just. It just feels better than having to face the thought that this is actually happening. This is why we see our own denial. If we're parents, like, one spouse is usually like, it's not that bad because they don't want to have to go into the big city without their paperwork work. So that's my metaphor. See what you guys have to say about that. But think about that, because that's exactly what we're doing. So let's see if we have any questions or. Oh, we do. I do. All right. Bree's gonna pop those up for me. Oh, Bonnie. Sorry, I'm not Amber. Something you can mention. How to repair ties with your grown children who won't talk to you even when you've gone to seven months of outpatient rehab and have been clean for over eight months. Oh, that's tragic. Without knowing any of the specifics. I think time is probably the best answer for that. Like, maybe they don't trust it. Maybe they don't trust the sobriety. Don't know if there's been previous efforts in the past, and they don't. They're just sort of waiting to see if this is going to stick. I think to just be patient, try, but not in a forceful way. Try to just instigate easy, breezy contact and then just be patient and give them the space. And hopefully one day they will realize that they're punishing for no reason and that that's not really fair to you and it's not fair to them and that they'll realize that they need to re. Establish contact with you. I hate that that's happening. That's. That seems unfair. But, you know, it's hard. A lot of times, even parents have a hard time trusting their children when they are recently out of treatment. So just be patient and hopefully it will work out for you. I hate that's happening too. Bonnie, Lucy, can someone recover without following a traditional recovery program? Can some people finally recognize what isn't working for them and stop on their own? For example, I've had food addictions in the past, and I feel my emotional trauma. The addictions decided on its own. Absolutely. Yeah. First of all, there's no such thing. That's one traditional path. So the big answer to that is, yeah, people can get better in millions of ways, but you can definitely. People can get better on their own as well. You just have to recognize that this thing isn't working for you anymore and figure out what is it that. What's causing this and can I fix that or how do I address that? Because the. The food addiction is like all. It's really the secondary. Right? It's the. It's the symptom of the problem. So we have to kind of look at the problem. If you can figure out how to do that on your own, you can absolutely recover from something. But there's not any one way to get better from even flat out addiction or alcoholism. Lots of people don't like aa. Lots of people don't want to go to counseling. Lots of people don't want to go to church. They just sort of figure out what works for them. And as long as they figure that out and master it, great. So, yeah, absolutely. Hey. Another person is disappointed. I'm not Amber. First time joining live. You've helped. Amber's helped me so much. My best friend has known my boyfriend has known substances and has made Positive change, Not sober, but aware. How do I help me mentally and emotionally, he is worth saving? Great question. Well, how do you help you is to not dance around the maple that is your boyfriend's use. Whether it's better or not better is you don't dance around that. You can't manage it, you can't control it, you can't fix it, you have very little input in it. So do you, like, build other resources, time with friends, time with self, focus on your career or whatever the other things in your life are while maintaining contact, communication, connection with him? It's just not going to be around his substance use. So if he shows up and he's clear and lovely and fun, you want to watch a movie or go out for dinner, do so and enjoy it. If you think he's like lapsed and you don't really want to be around it because you don't want to go backwards yourself, then you just be busy that day and tell him you'll see him tomorrow. I think that's the biggest thing, is we just get so consumed on what this person is doing or not doing, and then that fuels our anxiety and our behaviors, which therefore just make us focus on them even more that we lose ourselves. So I'm always saying, go towards yourself. Everyone's worth saving. So, yeah, I think, I think you got to take care of you and see what he does. If he's aware, he may have lapses here and there, but he's aware and working on it. He'll get it would be my guess. They usually do. How? This is a big question. How do you know when to walk away? The answer to this question is simple but unique and individual. And my answer to this is, you walk away when you're so sick and tired of being sick and tired that you just know it's the right time. For some people, this is a super short time. For some people, it is years and years and years and years and years or. Or never. So there's not a right answer. You just have to know, how do I feel? The day I told my son at 17 that he couldn't live there anymore, I had not thought about it, I had not practiced it, I hadn't even run it by anybody in the family. Just an event occurred and I just, I. I just felt it. And I was like, you know what? This isn't working for me anymore. You can't live here. So these are your conditions to live here. And if you can't do them, then you'll have to leave and he left, but I just knew like there was just this thing. So I think when you know that thing, that's when you walk away because that's the right time. My 24 year old son on probation chose detox last week. This week he wants to go to a sober living place. Do you think a dual diagnosis is better to recommend to him? He has no health insurance. I think dual diagnosis is always a good idea, especially if there is something we know about. But you absolutely can get sober anywhere. I think it looks like it depends on the money. If he's on his own and going to pay for this and he needs to go where he can afford, which is probably going to be like an Oxford house or something like that, which isn't going to offer any of that. But that doesn't mean you can't get sober there. Lots of really good quality sober living houses aren't dual diagnosis facilities. But you can go there and then find a counselor if you have a mental health issue that needs to be worked on or you just want to have a counselor experience in general. So I think if he's on a roll and he's like chose detox and he's choosing sober living, I would let him pick where he wants to go so that he will stay because no one forced him to go where he doesn't want to go and. Or if he doesn't stay, he'll have to look in the mirror and see himself. If you sort of insist you, I want you to go here for this dual diagnosis, I'm afraid it will bite you on either one of those scenarios which would not be helpful. So I let him pick it. He can get somewhere where he needs to get sober. Absolutely. All right. I like it when people put question marks at the beginning of a question. I understand that sentiment. Question mark, question mark. I am beginning to feel hate toward my loved one and I don't like that. Any suggestions on how to stop that emotion? Stop focusing on them so much. I don't think it's uncommon to at least not like our loved ones who are going through this. I remember thinking that about my own children. You probably don't hate because you're on this. And the opposite of love isn't hate. It's, it's complete disinterest. It's, it's indifference. So my guess is you just strongly don't like them. And the way to do that is distance yourself, go towards yourself, don't focus on them as much. But if it persists and this is someone that you live with, then you may have to get to the point where you don't live with them. If it's a boyfriend or a spouse, you can break up or separate. And if it's a child, you can hold down boundaries based upon how old the child is about whether they can live with you or not. But I think you probably need to like re evaluate. I don't think you probably hate them. I think you don't like them at all. And that's okay because I don't know anyone who likes someone who's actively using. They're not really likable. What does it take to finally get to a place where you trust your loved one is really in recovery? This ties to the first person's question of why does my, you know, what's it going to take for my family to forgive me feel like I'm always waiting for the relapse? You know what Cindy? You probably are and you will for a while, but that will fade. I don't, I can honestly tell you I don't know that it a hundred percent goes away or it hasn't for me. But I would say it's nicely In a nice 1 to 2% thought thing I have is if something like really scary is going on in one of my kids lives, I'm always like, but it fades. You'll know it when it, when you know it. But I think again, as you build your life and stop focusing on them and worrying about them and evaluating and sniffing and checking and doing all the things that we do, then that becomes a smaller and smaller piece as well as with time, that becomes smaller and smaller. So I think that's a combination answer. But it will fade. Probably just not 100% but you'll get comfortable with that or more comfortable. How do we as the loved one help during active addiction? Good question. Especially juxtaposed with the topic how do we help? I'm assuming you mean how do we. How do we love and. And support the loved one who is still using is you remain connected with them on your own terms. So again, this might be with some distance. It might be with some just funny emojis or gifts you send them. Not gifts, but gifts. If you see something they're doing well or time you want to spend them, you validate that like that was really lovely. I enjoyed spending time with you. Or you seem to be doing a good job in this. You know, anything where you can throw in that, a little bit of that serotonin, which is pride and that oxytocin with which is connection. You just don't hover and try to analyze and fix and control and manage because that doesn't help at all. And you don't avoid it like we talked about in the. The terminal metaphor. But you don't. You give them the space to see what they're going to do. I had a conversation with some clients that I've been seeing for a minute here this morning and their child seems to be. Have come to some sort of conclusion on his own last week that he needs to drink less and get going. And they're like, well, should we throw down all these late things? Should we remind them of the rent Is to him like just simmer, just summer. Let's see, let's see. Does he go to the left or does he go to the right? And I think a lot of times the thing to do is nothing is just to love them, be kind, but not try to manage it. But I hope that helped. But I don't know any of the details. But that would be an overall answer I would give. Should we tell them we don't want to be around them when they're using? Ah, I'm not a big fan of announcing. I think that that's. If that's a boundary that you're going to hold for yourself. Which that would be is I'm not going to be around him when he's using or her is I would just do it and I would find light hearted quick ways to get out of it. Like, you know what? I didn't realize but I told Jane I would meet her for coffee, so I gotta run. Or oh, I didn't realize it was so late. I told someone, I talked to them on Zoom. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go. I'm gonna hang up. I think if you start to say I'm not gonna be around you when you're using, it almost becomes threatening. Or, and, or a really good spoon for them to put that victim mentality in. Well, I wasn't gonna use. But she, she said that. I think overall you can say it if they're like, why do you never want to spend time with me? Say, you know, I love you dearly, but I just don't enjoy you when I think you're under the influence. So there's those times I just step away. Think you can do it if you do it like that, but I don't think you should do it in vivo. If they're drunk or high or whatever, you're like, you know, I'M not hanging out with you because you've been using. That's. That's not the way to approach it because they're just going to flip it back and use again and blame it on you. So yeah, that would be my answer on that. A Facebook user. I definitely was not one to see the problem. I was definitely not one to not see the problem. Okay. I most definitely left the airport and drove the wrong way down a one way street. Trial and error to get my son help. He seems to want to do this now. He is trying, but I see the depression kicking in while he's obtaining. How can I help him to the other side of this without getting in the way of his recovery? That's a huge question and I do not know nearly enough facts to give you a specific answer. I'm definitely glad you got out of the airport. Let me read you the question again. You can't. I mean just you. We can't get someone to do this. We can only provide the path through. Through love, financial support if that's what's needed through being there if they want to talk to us but not getting so consumed by it. You can. There is nothing that we can do concretely to get someone to the other side. If there were, we would sell that secret. We'd be billionaires and we'd see everyone one time. We'd sell them the secret. We'd be done. There isn't. You just do your role, which is to try to be loving and kind, connective while holding the boundaries that you need to hold for yourself and. And maintaining that distance that you're not so jumped into their lives that you can't see straight. Which is exactly what happens to all of us. So I think that trial and error is the secret. To be honest, like we all have. I did it wrong, I did it right. I did it wrong. I did it right. But that's just the best way to learn. So I think it sounds like you just keep doing what you're doing and he's going to figure it out or he won't. But hopefully he will. How do I feel less resentment and more compassion toward my loved one? I think one of the big ways is to recognize that it's disease. I think it's a disease. I know there are people who don't, but we organically alter the brain with substance use or any addiction and that's the definition of a disease to organically alter an organ. So if you can recognize that it's disease, that there's actually. If you were a parent or spouse, you're the person you love. And then there's the addiction. And they, while they look the same because they live in your, in your loved one's brain, they are in fact two different entities. And I think for you to recognize that I'm dealing with addiction now, I'm not going to deal with addiction. So therefore I don't have to hate it or feel resentment toward it. I'm just not going to deal with it. And then when I get the real person, I'm going to enjoy that. And obviously as we end up into stage four addiction, we get less and less of the real person. But there's no point of being resentful about something that is not being done purposefully and intentionally and personally against us. And I, we all take it personally, but it's the disease that's doing the thing. Even my, my son did not take all that jewelry and sterling. For me, the addiction told him he needed to do it today to get some money for the drugs today, and then he again needed to do it tomorrow to get some money for the drugs that day. So that's what helped me was to separate the addiction versus my, my person that I love. And by doing that, I had to understand the disease model and focus my energy on not hating the disease. Does Oxford actually have a structured program or one that has interaction life skills? No Oxford Houses, unless they've changed. But Oxford Houses are peer run. There's no staff, there's no formal program. You actually have to interview with the people who live in the Oxford house to get in. So. And then they can ask you to leave. So basically what I find is if you really need to get sober, you can do it in an Oxford House. But everyone's going to wake up, make their own breakfast or not go their own way, go to work or school or skateboarding depending on their age. And then they're going to come back at night and they're going to eat or not eat and they're going to go to bed. You may be lucky and there may be a little community of them that's like, hey, let's meet up here at 6 and we'll all go to the meeting together. But that would be about as structured as Oxford Houses get. They are. There's no staff and there's no community or built in fun or any of that stuff that we talk about for good quality long term sober living. So it's there. But they're very, very affordable. I think they're like 80 a week. They're called Working Men's Sober Living. And they can work beautifully. But there's no program. Suggestions for how to deal with someone who's in psychosis from meth. Holy God. We're seeing a lot of this. Don't argue. That's the best thing. Don't argue. I mean, I don't think, you know, say, yes, there are men on the street, but I wouldn't say no, there aren't. There aren't men dancing on scaffolding outside. They're going to be very persistent that you believe them. They're going to try to convince you that what they're seeing is true. I have lots of clients who are going through this now with their husbands and kids, and it's really, really difficult and really, really potentially dangerous. So I kind of recommend, like, if you, if you think they're that psychotic, is you see if you can get somebody to come and evaluate them. If they're danger to themselves, like they're standing on the balcony because they're talking to the ufo, they're a danger to themselves. So it's, it's, it's tricky and it can last for, you know, hours, days or weeks after using or can persist forever. So you definitely want to address it. If you can get them into some level of mental health evaluation, see if they need to be held so that they can stop the process with time or get some help on it, there's medication that can help on it, but, you know, then they have to be committed to a hospital. And that, as you know, in this country, is super tricky to do. But just don't argue with them. It's the best. Quick answer on that one. I'm sorry, it's. That's gotta stink. All right. How to address when your addicted spouses expects sexual intimacy as connection during recovery. When I'm unable to connect on that level just yet. He doesn't understand. You know, Jennifer, this is actually a very common topic during sessions. I think you need to just explain to them in loving, kind ways that you're just not there yet. And that. That while his recovery is a journey, yours is as well, that you are still there. You anticipate being able to reconnect with them, but right now you just can't. And, and if they're truly in recovery, they might not like that, but they will understand it. I, I have this conversation two or three times a week, and that's generally the advice I give my clients, is just, just be honest. Don't do something you don't want to do, but also don't not address it because then it's just going to become a resentment. So I think just be honest with them. Tell them. What is your opinion and or experience with naltrexone. For addicts of alcohol and drugs after they have detoxed, naltrexone is great. It can work. It can work wonderfully if the person takes it. And I'm a bigger fan of Vivitrol because with naltrexone you have the daily conversation with yourself. They have like, should I take it or should I not take it? And. And eventually the addiction may win and they'll say, I'm not going to take it today so I can drink. The Vivitrol takes that daily battle out and because once it's in there, it's in there for 30 days. So I preferred that. But I think naltrexone is a great alternative. It's just really easy for them to talk themselves out of taking it. Sort of like old school interviews was. So I think you have to. If they're using it because they want to not drink and they're going to religiously take it. High five. It's great. It's a great option. If they're taking it because they're complying, probably there will become a time not too far down the road where they just decide not to comply. My loved one is trying to stop drinking, but has amped up his use of chewing tobacco and doesn't see that as an issue. I feel like this is just transferring the addiction. Should I say anything Hill to the no. First of all, I hear you. We have this conversation all the time, but we have a willpower center in our brain. Oh, wait one minute, dammit. We have willpower center in our brain. It's like this big and it is charged by sleep. So when we wake up in the morning, it's as fully charged as it's going to get. And so if he's using on an alcohol, you don't want him to use it on the chewing tobacco. You don't want him use on anything. We tell people in early recovery this is not the time to quit cursing, to go on a diet, to give up smoking. This is why lots and lots of people in early recovery use tobacco products. So no, say nothing if he gets. If he gives up alcohol and he'll eventually address that. But for right now, do not pick your battle. Alcohol is far more damaging to your relationship than chewing tobacco is. So no, say nothing. Unfortunately, we are out of time. That was the fastest 30 minutes in my entire life. I now know how Bri feels by managing the phones. Like time just flies when it's just coming at you. So I hate that, but it's been wonderful, and I hope you guys learned something and this was of value. And I will look forward to the next time I get to see you. And Amber will be back next week, so thanks a lot, everyone. Have a great afternoon, and thanks for being part of our hoper family's family. Bye, guys.