Uncover the Signs of Toxic Relationships with Dr. Tracey Marks (Look for These Red Flags)

A couple of weeks ago, I was on YouTube and one of Dr. Tracy Mark's videos comes up, and the video title is, what if you're the toxic one? And I thought, oh, that's interesting. So I start listening, and Dr. Mark starts to identify these 10 toxic behaviors. And almost immediately I'm thinking, oh, my gosh. Like, when you are in a codependent relationship, as when I say codependent, I mean, like when you're in a relationship with someone who has an addiction and you start acting codependently, you very often have these behaviors. There were 10. And I would say the family members that we see, they have, like, all of them but one. And I was like, Dr. Marks, you're talking about my people. And so I reached out to Dr. Marks, who graciously agreed to come on and talk to us and be our expert witness to talk about these kinds of toxic behaviors, what they are, maybe where they're coming from, what to do if. If you're behaving this way, what to do if someone's behaving this way towards you. She's going to lay some wisdom on us. We are super lucky. Thank you for coming, Dr. Marks.

Thank you for inviting me on. I'm looking forward to this.

Now, why is this a. Where did this topic idea come from for you? Like, is this something you see in your practice?

Yeah, this was something, interestingly enough, that I saw in my personal life before I became a psychiatrist, and then after I became a psychiatrist, I saw the repetition of these. All of these behaviors, and I was like, so this wasn't just this one person. This is a thing that people do. And of course, I learned more about what's on behind that and, you know, more about it, but still, that's kind of how it. It started. And. And yes, I saw a lot of people in my practice who were the ones on the receiving end, if you will, of these behaviors versus the ones who were doing these things. I mean, sometimes it was. And then as far as. And so I made this video of kind of these toxic behaviors or signs of a toxic relationship. And then what. I was very surprised to see a number of people comment saying, oh, my goodness, I do all of this stuff. What do I do? And I never thought of the person doing it, watching it, and having something to say about it. I was thinking it was going to be all the people who were on the receiving end going, yes, yes, yes, that's right. And so then I thought, wow, it's great that a person recognizes these behaviors that's Step one, number one. And then wants to actually make some change. So then I came up with the idea of making a video talking about, well, what if you are the one doing these things?

I think it is so interesting that people can actually identify that they're doing these things. And what that says to me is like to be able to say, oh my gosh, I do that too, is very insightful. And I think it also requires like a lot of humility. And when you're doing these things from a codependent perspective, most likely this isn't your natural self and you know that, like, you normally don't act this way and it makes it easier to recognize, like, oh my gosh, I'm doing that. What has happened to me. Because when you find yourself in this relationship with an addictive person, you become a person you don't recognize anymore. And I think a lot of our viewers that watch from the family member perspective are really going to identify with some of this stuff. And not only do they exhibit these behaviors, but they've been on the receiving end too, because it's really kind of like going back and forth when you're in a codependent relationship. It's. It's both sides coming at each other.

That's right. Yeah. It's not just. It's not all one sided. So. Absolutely.

Would you, would it be possible for you to give us the list of the behaviors so that, so that people watching can say, oh, I know somebody who does that. Sure. Okay, sure. I.

Let me read them because I don't keep them top of mind. So there were 10 and the first. And these are kind of summaries of the behaviors. Of course, the video goes into more detail about how they look, but. And these are not in any order of importance or significance. So one was chronic anger, like blow ups or moodiness. Number two is chronic sarcasm, which is a form of disguised anger. Three, disparaging humor, like things aren't funny unless you insult someone. Number four is having a punitive mindset that people deserve the bad things that happen to them. 5 is needing to control people. 6 is excessive insecurity and needing constant reassurance. 7 is being extremely opinionated and judgmental. 8 is manipulating people with guilt. If you really cared about me, you do X, Y and Z. Number nine is predominant self centeredness in a way that they give more than they take. Oh, sorry. That they take more than they give. That was wishful thinking the other way around. And number two, 10 is needing to be on the offense of having A worldview that people will stick it to you unless you get them first. So they're kind of always looking to get over in some way.

So when I hear that list, I have a million thoughts actually. But the number nine one, the one of predominant self centeredness, I don't think that one applies to codependence in general because usually it is more the opposite of that. They, they over give and then that puts them in a resentful place, which then triggers some of these other behaviors. But I'm also thinking when you read number 10 like this need to be on the offense, others will get you if. Unless you're, you know, ahead of them. What if it's true a little bit? What if you're a relationship with someone that maybe there's like a little. Maybe you don't feel that way about everyone, but maybe you feel that way in your own home or with a specific person.

Could.

Could that be possible?

It can be. So there's, there's gray with all of this. And some people going back to the example of the person who over gives and then feels exploited, then takes back, that can end up, you can end up having this kind of mindset of people are just trying to take from you. So I need to get mine because when I what When I let my defenses down, got taken advantage of, people always take advantage of me. So I'm not doing that anymore. So now it's my turn. And you can have a season of your life where it's about you now because you felt like you spent 20 years of it not being about you.

That makes sense.

So if I were to catch you in that stage of your life, it can look like that's your predominant personality, where it's really more of a reaction. I'll get to where you've been so you're trying to correct, but now you've overcorrected in the wrong direction, swung too far.

That makes a lot of sense. And one of the things that you do say in the video is that when you're looking at it, you can't necessarily judge a person on these behaviors based on if they're in a specific circumstance. And you do qualify that in the, in the video you say, you know, if you catch somebody at a bad time and they're doing these things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're a toxic person. But because you're saying it's more of like a predominant thing.

Right. So these are behaviors that the clinical term would be pervasive, but they happen in most situations, under most circumstances. So it's not because, yes, I'm in a bad relationship, and now I'm just. This has brought out the worst in me, and this is how I'm acting, or I'm depressed and in a bad state. And now I'm being very. I'm angry all the time and cynical. It's not situational. This is. This is how you are most of the time.

Right. So I would say that for a lot of our listeners, which we really have two audiences, we have people that are battled, that battle addiction, and then we have their loved ones, and either side can demonstrate these behaviors, but it really is much more situational. So when we're talking about this, I don't want you to think that we're saying you are a toxic person, but you might be in a toxic situation, triggering behaviors that aren't necessarily characteristic of who you would be, either which side you're on of that. And so I do think that we need to take that into consideration. I don't want. I don't want us to sort of label ourselves as a toxic person when really, like you said, it's not global, it's not pervasive, it's more situational. Nonetheless, they're not good behaviors.

No, they're not. And that's a great qualifier because the original video where I identified these, it was signs of a toxic relationship. So these are going on in the relationship and the people, the person. It was. It was intended to talk about someone who's doing this, and then to the other person, that person, that may be something that they do all the time, or it could be that they're in a bad stage of life and this is how they're acting in response to something.

So.

And I kept getting questions about, well, then what does this mean? You know, what's the diagnosis? And. And that's. That wasn't the point. This. These aren't criteria for a diagnosis or even a personality disorder. It's these. It's behavior. So this is about toxic behavior, which, you know, these.

These behaviors, if they're pervasive enough and there's enough of them, there could kind of fall into a diagnosis. But whether it's a diagnosis or just a situational thing, most of the time these behaviors are being triggered from something. Right. It's either some kind of like, maybe like an insecurity, a fear, like what. What typically triggers these behaviors? What would make someone act this way? Not like diagnostically, but like, individually.

Sure. Well, so it could be lots of different Things, you know, things like, let's say anger, chronic anger and sarcasm and things like that. Some people can learn to be that way because that's the environment they grew up in. Nothing was funny unless you're poking fun at someone or if you know they, you're, you've had a series of bad things happen to you and you're starting to feel very cynical about life now. That comes out in almost everything you do, the way you, you talk to people. But it's also going on in your own head too. That's kind of your world view now is, you know, I can't get a leg up. Everybody else is doing well, but I'm not or I can't. Certainly being depressed changes your mindset about life and your, your outlook. Growing up or having, having a lot of negative self talk. Your self image can affect how you view the world and therefore how you, you know, what you do to get your needs met. So going to the predominant self centeredness, you know, that could be part of your fear that if you don't take care of yourself, you're not going to be taken care of. So you're the only one who can do that. Well, why would someone feel that way? Well, numerous reasons. It could be your temperament, but maybe you have a trauma background where your parents or parent was negligent and hardly paid any attention to you. You had to raise yourself. Not everyone in that situation grows up to be cynical. But you, you know, your world view, it affects your worldview and it could make you think that it's just, it's about, it's all on you now. You can't trust people.

You gotta look out for yourself kind of mindset.

That's right. Gotta look out for yourself. And even people who, you know, not all of this comes from childhood. You can have a series of adult relationships that do damage such that you can get to where you don't want to trust the next person because you're, you're having trouble trusting people as most people seem to lie or steal or whatever that hurt you. And so you can be very, you know, that can create a fear that then leads you to have to feel in control all the time to offset your insecurity. And so that need to control can look like not only controlling your circumstances, but controlling the person that you're with.

I would, I would say that probably of the 10, the need to control would probably be at the top of the list for someone who is living with someone who has an addiction because there's just so much Chaos, and you're trying to protect yourself, but you're also trying to protect them and you're trying to keep things from happening. And so it's pretty easy to get in a very controlling place.

Absolutely. If there's a lot of chaos, which we know addictions can cause chaos, then a natural reaction is to want to kind of kick things into gear and try and control whatever you can.

Right. It's. It's a way you're trying to keep yourself safe, right? Yeah, absolutely. Now I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask this question because one of these, I was like, oh, I think I might do that one sometimes. So I'm gonna throw myself under the bus here. When I. When you said the one about chronic sarcasm and like, teasing. I'm definitely guilty of being pretty sarcastic. Is it always bad? So I'm gonna need you to talk me through this. Like, while ago, I thought. And I realized it right after I did it, when I started the video by saying, can you list them off? Because. Because then we can identify because we know someone that does that. And I was like, oh, I just did it right then I keep doing it. Tell me about chronic sarcasm.

So. So as I mentioned, it's a disguised. It's disguised anger. It could also be disguised hurt behind that anger because often anger is. Stems from hurt and it's easy to express the anger than it. Than it is to express the pain from the hurt. I do think so. Yeah. I guess the key word here is chronic. Like this kind of happens all. Most of the time versus going back to the situational stuff. So we probably all do this to some degree, especially if you feel disempowered. And I'm thinking about. I mean, I know I've fallen into sarcasm a lot as a way to express my anger when I don't feel like I have permission to express my anger.

And whether that passive aggressiveness kind of.

Thing, that the passive aggressive way of expressing your anger. And so whether that be in childhood, being kind of a strong willed, willed child who is kind of shut down, has that shut down. And what do you do with that? All that energy or assertiveness. You start coming up with sarcastic stuff to say sarcastic comments. Medical school, not medical school, internship and residency is. Was ripe for that kind of. You're the intern. You have to do what people tell you to do. And we don't care. And you can't say anything and you can't act mad. So what do you do? You just make all these little comments under your breath and Spend the whole year of internship angry. So. So, yeah. Anyone? I mean, I do that too. I do. It. It is, I think, an escape for some people to be able to find a way to let some of their anger out in a semi acceptable way.

So it's kind of like it can happen to you when you're holding a lot of things in and you feel like you can't say it. And then it just sneaks out in these little digs that you're kind of like disguising as humor.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

I think it's funny that you mentioned internship in medical school because one of our counselors, Campbell, was talking about this yesterday. Her daughter is a brand new doctor and she's out of the intern phase. She's in the next phase. Is it resident? I don't know, Residency? I don't know what it is, but she's out of the. The bottom to your face. And she was talking about how that's a thing, how it's like, oh, you're at the bottom of the barrel. You'll do all the crappy stuff, you'll take the crappy chef. She. And it's almost like hazing. And she. They was literally talking about how bad it is.

It's really bad. Yeah, it can. It's a toxic experience. It really can be.

She was even saying a few years ago it was so bad, like, they would literally put you on like, you know, back to back shifts, like sleep deprivation, just severe. I'm like, that's not even safe. Exactly.

Like. Yeah. Whose idea was that? I mean, and why don't we do this to ourselves? But yeah, it's things. Fortunately, it's been a long time since I went through that experience and maybe things have changed, I don't know. But yeah, that's just kind of the way of the world. And you deal with it. And what do you do to keep yourself shut up about it? You get in some digs whenever you can kind of thing.

And I find that when we're not holding healthy boundaries for ourselves, sometimes in a situation where you're talking about you don't have a choice, like if you're, you know, an intern in med school. But there are other times when we do have a choice, but we're not holding healthy boundaries for ourself, then we become resentful, we become angry, and it starts to seep out and we think that we're like self sacrificing and we're kind of like going along because we don't want to hurt someone. Else's feelings. But I feel like ultimately when we do this, it leads us to acting out in. In like the sarcasm, the anger, the. Controlling all of those things.

Yes, exactly. Right. So I was. I always want to say I was raised. I was trained. It felt like I was getting raised, but I was trained in a very psychoanalytic environment where the idea is that there's a lot of unconscious motives and emotions that you have unconscious meaning beyond your awareness that do seep out in other ways if you don't manage or deal with them. So I can. So, for example, let's say I grew up. This is hypothetical. Let's say I grew up feeling like girls aren't supposed to express anger because it's not ladylike. I'm in the South. That's pretty common. But if something makes me angry, then what do I do about that? So I'll just. So I'm not angry. Of course not. Not me. But my mind hasn't forgotten what bothered me. And just because I'm saying out loud or saying to myself, oh, it's no problem. It still is a problem in my head. And what do I do? Maybe I go overeat or I drink too much, or I, you know, I do something else to express that negative emotion that I wasn't. That I didn't allow myself to express for whatever reason, whether because I felt external pressures not to do it or my own pressure not to do it.

It'S going to come out some way.

It's going to come out.

I think passive aggressiveness is like the language of the South.

Yes, I would. I would agree with you.

Yeah, I would agree with you. I think so. Yeah. Let me. Let me ask you this. If you find yourself on the receiving end of these kinds of behaviors, do you have any suggestions or pieces of advice on how to react, Respond. What do you do if you're on the receiving end?

So this is where I think it becomes very important to have personal boundaries. And I think not having very firm boundaries or clear boundaries, having them be very fluid is one of the things that can allow you to stay stuck in relationships where this is going on, whether you're doing it the other person's doing it, or you're doing it together. And so what does that mean? I know that's a very broad term, personal boundaries, but let me see if I can just pick one. So let's say the manipulating you with guilt thing. Let's say you have a 10. Let's say normally it's easy for you to just cave and say you agree to do something. If the person convinces you that that's what you're supposed to do, that's your responsibility. Or, how can you let me not have this thing? How can you let me go without. Of course. And so you, you now have assumed responsibility for this other person and all these things you've got to do. Setting boundaries is being able to recognize that it's okay to say no to requests that you don't think are reasonable and not feel guilty about that and not let someone change your mind about doing something you don't want to do. So, you know, if you're asking me to, like, one of the examples I gave in one of the videos was move in with you. And I'd say, I don't believe in people living together if they're not married. But, you know, I. I could feel like, well, but if I really love this person, I would do this because that's what they want and I'm being rejecting. They could convince me that I'm rejecting them if I don't want to live with them. So now never mind that this is also my conviction. I don't want to do it. So what's wrong with me being able to put that wall there, that boundary, and say, this is. I just don't want to do this. And this isn't a direct affront to you or a rejection of you. This is just not something I want to do. So saying no, being able to say no, I think is probably the most easily recognizable boundary that people can set for themselves. Like, where's your line for saying no?

Don't.

Just.

So don't let the guilting work on you. Is it ever a good idea to call it out, or is that like a recipe for disaster?

It could be a recipe for a big fight because the person who is wanting you to buy into doing what they want because they're making you feel guilty is not going to like that. But I, I think. I think it's always better to call things out and, and talk about them at. For what they are rather than play this game of no one's saying, you know, the elephant in the room thing, no one's really saying what this is. I'm just going along with it and, or acting like it's not a problem. It is a problem. I'm. I'm not going to feel guilty about xyz. I'm sorry you. You feel rejected by my declining your offer, but I just don't want to do it. I'd like to be able to help you in some other way. But this isn't for me. I mean, that's just kind of a broad example of now, you know, depending on the relationship. In this case, you know, we're talking about close relationships with just an ordinary person asking you to do something you're not going to want to say and I'm not going to be guilted by you. Yeah, that's, that's too much. But in a close, intimate relationship where, you know, you have some, some history to know that this is what's going on, I think it's best to call it out so that the person can have, the other person has a chance to either change their tactic or, and address it and not just kind of keep doing this like, I know what you're up to kind of thing.

So I'm thinking, in a situation like you described, I'm thinking how I would respond and I'm gonna say it in just a second, but it's, it's kind of sarcastic. So I, you need to sort of weigh in and you can totally tell me you want my feelings. I've worked in detox. You can't hurt my feelings. That's what I say. And I taught high school so I'm like impermeable. I would probably say, oh, you laying the guilt on thick. Like that's what I say to the person. I would sort of call it out, but I would be humorous. I wouldn't call it out in a way that was like fighting. I would probably say, oh, you trying to guilt me? That's not even going to work. You know, I would just be funny and like attitude or sassy or something.

Yeah.

Appropriate. Or is that using like the sarcasm thing?

So it, it kind of does depend on the, the relationship dynamic that you have with the person. So I do think that's great to just say it like that in a light hearted way. But you can go too far with the, you know, with turning it into sassy sarcasm that then insults the person. I can't necessarily think of a good example of how that would be. But like that would be how it could go too far that way. But just simply just being like, well, you're really, you're really laying on the guilt trip here, you know, and you're like, no, I'm not, I'm just, I just thought, you know, you ought to know that if you don't do this, this, this is, you know, I don't know if I want to live. Well, I hate that you feel that way, but I'M still not going to do this. And I, I'll feel bad if you do something bad to yourself, but I can't let your feeling you're feeling bad. I can't let the threat of that make me do this thing.

So I'm thinking of another quick example. I was talking to someone recently who, this was a parent and their, their, their kid who was an adult, a young adult, but an adult wanted money to go get like a haircut or something. And the parent was like, okay, you know, here's like 20, 25 bucks, I got a, like, you know, great cuts or whatever. And they're like no, I want this, like go this place. And it's really good. And it's like a hundred dollar haircut or whatever. And she's like no, I'm not gonna pay for you to have a hundred dollar haircut. You know, you're grown up or whatever. And then the, the young adult said, well you pay for extensive haircut to the adult. And I felt like that was kind of a guilting move.

Yeah, it probably was. Like why, why would you do something good for yourself that you're not going to do for me? And you know, that's a great example because that's where the parent, if they do like why, why shouldn't you as a parent be able to put your child in their place about I have a job and pay bills, you don't. So you don't really have much choice about the level of thing you get or you know, you don't have to be that bad about it. You, I mean you could just say yeah, well I work. And when you work you can decide to spend that much money on your hair too. Yeah, but I, the parent who doesn't have good boundaries. But, and so this is a good example of the boundary thing doesn't have good boundaries between herself and her child. You know, you kind of needs to have her, his or her needs met through the child. Any kind of rejection or dis or any kind of pushback they get from their child is seen as rejection and they don't want to feel rejected. And so there's all of this do, do, do without setting any kind of limits. So the parent who can't push back and say yeah, and what else that was, yeah, that person has, that adult has, is the one with the problem with the boundaries and being able to be firm and set limits with their child.

And sometimes those things have just gone on so long in families that it's, it's a habitual way that people interact with each other and you have to learn how to spot it. And I loved what you said earlier, Dr. Marks, about like these unconscious motivators and when we're not aware of what's, you know, what's behind what's happening, then it does control it. And so the first thing is being like, aware of I am doing this or I am allowing this to be done to me, why am I allowing it? Why am I doing it? It's really quite empowering. So to be able to say, oh my gosh, I do this, or you know, or I put up with that is pretty empowering because it. Now you can do something about it.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that's, that is step number one is the recognition. And that recognition can come from seeing a therapist or counselor. Some very insightful partners or someone close to you can help you see some of these things too. Now, they may not describe it as you're using chronic sarcasm for blah, blah. They may just say you always seem mad about something or everything you say just kind of, it feels like you're always digging. Like even that kind of feedback can help you see, oh, I'm doing something here. And then start the process of self reflecting, of, well, yeah, why didn't I made this person feel this way? What, what was I, what was I thinking? What am I getting out of this? Could I have said it differently? And why didn't I say it that better way? What, what was it serving me to do it, to act this way so you could.

So it's about like, maybe you're the person who might say, you know, if you love me, you wouldn't keep drinking. That would be a common thing for someone in a codependent relationship to say. Right? And so you would think, okay, yeah, I kind of do say that. I do put the guilt on them. Why do I do that? Or you might be on the other end of it and you might say, why am I uncomfortable telling my adult child that I'm not going to give them a hundred dollars for a haircut? You know, so it doesn't make you a bad person to admit or acknowledge that something's going on that maybe needs to have a change.

That's right. I mean, I think that we all have bad behavior. No one is perfect. We all are flawed. We all were raised by flawed people. So. So no one is going to have the perfect behavior. That said, you're a step ahead or the ideal scenario to be in is one in which you can recognize behaviors in yourself that cause problems for you because they negatively affect other people and make change. Like, try and understand patterns of your own behavior that are problematic and start making changes.

I can remember a time when I didn't want to acknowledge things. One of the scenarios that comes to my mind first is when you. When you're a baby counselor, you have to do in South Carolina, and in most states, actually, you have to do like two years of where you're like a counselor, but you have to see another counselor who's been doing it longer, sort of a mentor person. It's called a supervisor, and you have to talk with them about your cases. I call it like therapy for the therapist, but it's not really necessarily therapy about your own childhood. It's about making sure you have your head on straight about your clinical work. So when I was a baby therapist and I would have to go meet, you know, every week with my supervisor, mentor person, the. The question he would ask was, are you having any counter transference issues? And what that means. That's just fancy counselor talk. But what that means is, are you having any feelings about your clients? And literally, Dr. Marks, for two years, I said, no. I can't believe you even let me get away with it. If you ask me that now I'm like, yeah, I have a feeling about every single client I have because I have all these feelings. You're not gonna have feelings positively. But I thought that it would mean I was like a bad counselor if I had feelings. So I couldn't even acknowledge it to myself. When he asked me that, I was like, no. I mean, I didn't even recognize it. And that's really where counselors and anybody. We get ourselves in trouble when we don't want to look at something.

Yeah. I think that even knowing that countertransference is an issue. Countertransference, as you've said, though, but I'll repeat, countertransference being the. Your own feelings and things that are affecting the dynamic between you and the client. So what about my past or history or personality is rubbing off on, say, this. This dyad here we have. But even knowing that, that's a real thing, and it's just natural. We're human as counselors. We can still feel like. Well, but to be a good therapist, it shouldn't be affecting my work. So. No, because I'm a good therapist and not really want to acknowledge that, because we.

And the reason I'm bringing that up is just to say for anyone listening is, even counselors have feelings and behaviors, Even clinical professionals, we have Feelings and behaviors that get us in trouble and are not, you know, not the most effective strategies or ways of being. And. And we have to do a lot of work to acknowledge them and identify them. So the reason I tell that story and I tell that to people, if I supervise them, I tell my own story about that so that people feel comfortable saying, oh, yeah, I feel that way, or I did that, you know, or I let that happen, that kind of thing.

Right, exactly. We're not above that. So just own it.

Right? It's totally fine. Just own it. We all. We all have buttons. We all have things, and that's when you can get in control of it. That's how you fix it.

Mm, that's right.

So do you have time to take a couple of questions? Do we have enough time for that, doctor?

Sure, absolutely.

Can you see the chat on the side? I don't know if you can see that.

I can't.

All I see a little button that says comments or something like that.

Oh, okay.

It's okay. You don't have to, because I can put them on the screen for you. But I was just gonna say if you see a question there that you wanted to answer, you could grab it.

Oh, okay. I just clicked on comments and see all this stuff. I had no idea all that was going on. Oh, okay.

Ah. Ah.

Well, if you see anything, I'm just kind of flipping. If you see something that stands out, that's like a question, then, yeah, go right ahead.

And if you have A question for Dr. Martins, if you will write the word question in all caps. It helps. It helps my little ADD brain to scan through and. And see, because there is so much conversation, it's hard to. It's hard to do that. But I think I see something here. I'm going to put on the screen. For us, what makes it difficult to express our pain by describing and communicating?

Well, by describing, I guess, describing the pain and going into detail, I'll assume that's what you mean. So some people, temperament wise, just aren't wired to communicate well. Like they. You can be more reflective internally. So, for example. And then some people, whatever they're thinking is in their mouth. So. And I can think of this specifically the difference between me and my husband. I tend to think more in my head. And so we can be experiencing the same thing. We could be standing outside and he'll say, oh, it's cold out here. Oh, nice, the sun's out. And I'm thinking these things. And he's just like a commentary. The Whole time. So my point is, is that one, if you are someone who is not just kind of built to talk a lot about what you're thinking, then you're, you may not be good then at communicating what you're feeling. Sometimes you can be held back from being able to express yourself, especially expressing negative emotions. If you say, grew up in a household where that wasn't acceptable for you to complain, then you can just kind of feel like that's not something you can talk about. And then when you get to be an adult, it's not as though you consciously say that's not something I can talk about. You just don't. It doesn't come natural for you to verbalize what you're thinking and feeling. And you may have, you may even have trouble recognizing what that feeling is. It may be in your, and we call this emotional intelligence. It may be, you may know that you have this conversation with someone. I feel bad, but that, but bad is so general. You know, bad. In what way did you feel? Were you insulted? Were your feelings hurt? Did you feel slighted in some way? Disrespected? I mean, there's lots of nuances to that and it takes time and practice to get good or better at recognizing specifically how you feel and then having the courage or feeling good about, or the confidence to express it to someone. And then one more thing I'll include, I could probably go on forever about this kind of stuff. But also your level, your self esteem can affect how well you communicate. Because if you, if you doubt yourself, you may, you won't feel comfortable expressing your opinion. What if people reject you? What if they think it's stupid? Do you, are you even, do you even have the right to speak up in this group kind of thing? So, so there's a lot that goes into effective communication. Your, how you feel about your self image, your, your history or exposure is a better word. Your exposure to effective communication. If you were in a family where everybody's on their phone at the dinner table or don't even eat together and everybody just does their own thing except when someone wants something, then you're not used to having a lot of communication about, well, we need to talk. Here's an issue. You know, did your family do that? Let's talk about how we feel about this. Probably not. So a lot of those things can affect communication and your ability to communicate with people.

So it's almost like the way you're describing is almost like three separate skill sets. You have to be able to identify what's going on. You have to have the words to communicate it out loud and you have to have like this self esteem or security in yourself to give yourself permission to talk about it out loud. So there's a lot of pieces to that. And if any one of those pieces isn't like, you know, honed in really well, then you're gonna have trouble with that.

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

I see another quick question here and this seems like a biggie, so I'm just gonna throw this big daddy question. How can we train our mind to manage our emotions properly? That's a big, that's a big one.

That's a one answer question. I would say. Taylor. Okay, I thought that was an I without my glasses. Taylot. I would say that step one in managing negative emotions could be. There's lots of steps here. This sounds almost like a non answer, but it starts with even recognizing the negative emotions. So again, going back to trying to get specific as to what you feel because, you know, if you feel hurt, try, you know, it matters whether your negative emotion is hurt versus versus anger versus feeling insecure, like someone's going to leave you, you know, so what you're actually feeling matters so that you can then know how to respond or how to if you have a distorted thought about it. Because some of these things come stem from cognitive distortions of making assumptions that just aren't true. So being able to then challenge some of those assumptions that you make is, Would be a next step. But again, you got to kind of identify what, what the emotion is and then identify if you have any negative emotion or, sorry, any cognitive distortions around that. That's basic cognitive behavior therapy. I know I have some videos on my channel talking about managing negative emotions and I'm sure there's lots on the Internet as well, on YouTube, but there's, there's lists of common cognitive distortions that you could look at and get into the practice of seeing if what you're thinking falls into that. So one off the top of my head is black and white thinking. So I assume that, you know, someone says something and I'm like, you know, I go to one extreme or another. There's no middle, there's no gray here. So you tell me that, you know, we didn't make as much last month and I think, well, we're going to go broke and you know, we can't, we can't go on vacation ever. And you know, I start kind of coming to all these negative conclusions, which also is kind Of a form of catastrophizing, which is another cognitive distortion. That kind of thinking and verbalizing that can get on your. The nerves of your partner if they don't want to hear all that. Like, that's not what I said. I just said we made less money. So recognizing that and then being able to challenge those negative thoughts is another way to kind of flesh this out and then flush it out. So that would be my suggestion.

I love that. And even just the process of thinking it through, like that takes you out of your emotional brain into your thinking brain, which the process itself will take the charge down several levels, I think, because now you're. You're okay. Well, how am I feeling? Well, what does it mean? Well, am I thinking rationally about that now? Immediately? Just that process is bringing you back into strategic thinking instead of emotional thinking, correct?

Yeah. One other thing about that, you. You were talking about kind of bringing down the level, made me think about. Affective labeling is a term for that, assigning a word to the emotion that you're feeling. And that process itself diffuses the emotion behind what you're feeling. It sounds very basic and simple to do that, but it really does. That's what the studies show, that it diffuses the intensity of the emotion when you assign words to how you feel.

I never thought about it before. Right. When you were saying that I was imagining, I was thinking. Well, it's kind of like when you're home alone in your house and you hear a noise outside. If you can identify what that noise is, that's the tree on the window or that's the car next door, you feel way less scared immediately because you know what it is. It's not this scary thing out there. That's. That's a danger to you now because you've identified it.

Yeah. That's an excellent analogy. Excellent.

Here is a question from Ash. How being a highly sensitive person can affect codependency.

So I have to admit that I am not as well versed with the highly sensitive person construct. I think that is something that came about after my training. So, you know, so what I would say I would call it something different or I would. I would look at. Look at that rather than that term, the highly sensitive. I would just look at it as a person who is sensitive with a lot of empathy. So let me look at the question again. How does that. How does that affect codependency? I think it makes being very sensitive or empathic makes it easier for you to. For you to not have good boundaries. That allow you to separate yourself and your needs from the other person's needs, and then that can allow you to just kind of accept things and take ownership of things that you shouldn't. So I'm trying to think of a kind of a concrete example of that. But I think the guilt thing, going back to that of being able to be controlled by guilt, I think it'd be easier, much easier for the highly sensitive person to be controlled by guilt, because the last thing you want is to hurt the person or have them feel hurt by something. So if they can convey. Convey to you that whatever you're not doing or whatever thing you're not granting them is hurting them, then they're golden. You're. You're there and okay, let me do whatever I need to do, even though I don't really want to, to make you happy.

I've got the perfect. The next question on here is literally perfect example of exactly what you're saying. Why do I keep feeling sad after saying no, Even knowing that the limit is going to correct and needed. I feel like it was. Like it was exactly what you were.

Just talking about, exactly. Being very to. To a fault. It's sort of compassionate, empathic or sensitive, whatever we want to call that, feeling.

Responsible for someone else's feelings. There's a, There's a. So many reasons why that could be happening. Being a highly sensitive person, coming from your childhood, you know, being sort of trained in your childhood some way that you're responsible for other people's happiness and you know, it's your job to make sure people are happy. Those kind of things that could be coming from a lot of places. But I think just like Dr. Marks is saying, if you identify why, why do I feel sad? Then you have some control over it immediately. Once you figure that out. That's right, you say, oh, that's. That's my mama's voice in there talking to me. That's not even me. That's my mama. Or something like that. Whatever that is for you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You made me. That kind of reminded me of the issue with the parentified child. The, the. The parent who let. Who becomes the child and lets their parent their. Let their child parent them. If you were in that kind of situation with a needy parent who needed you to be the adult, then you know you are. You can be very sensitive or, or vulnerable to wanting to make sure people are happy because that's what you had to do growing up. Take this person who's very important to you and is the world to you and keep them happy. And it's hard to break out of that pattern even, even, even once you're in it.

So long that been doing it so long it's.

Yeah, it's just your nature now. And so it takes a lot of work for. And again going back to like where does it start? Where does the, where does the freedom start? It starts with recognition that just because you recognize that that's, that's what you're doing and why you're doing it, just because you recognize that doesn't mean, okay, I won't do it again. You'll do it.

Right.

But you'll now be able to recognize when you do it and then try a different way of responding the next time.

You'll get better and better and better identifying it and even identifying it very early on and shifting it faster.

Right.

Dr. Marks, where can they find you? You even mentioned like some videos you had on dealing with negative emotions and cognitive behavioral therapy. I know they're going to be, I know they're going to want all that. So tell them where they can find that.

Sure, yeah. So I have a YouTube channel under my name. It's Dr. Tracy Marks T R A C E Y. So Dr. Tracy Marks M A R K S and, and I have. It's mental health education. I talk a lot about a lot of different things. I do have some specific playlists though on. I forget how I titled them but psychology concepts, relationship issues or something. I can't remember how I titled them but if you look at my playlist you'll see that there's some that. Where I house these managing difficult emotions and things so that you can get. So it brings more attention to them. Amongst all my other depression, bipolar anxiety videos and then on this issue of like getting support and help with recognizing your emotions and self awareness and things, that's actually something that we're working on in my new wellness community. So I have a new mental wellness space it's called which is a new community that launched this month with challenges each month and live Q and A's for questions. But the, the theme for this month is self awareness and we're doing each week exercises to help you be more self aware.

So that sounds really neat. It's almost like if you were in kind of like a workout community or a fitness community and you would meet and you would hold each other accountable and you would have share ideas. But it's like that but for mental health and emotional management and that kind of thing.

Correct. Right. For people managing a mental health condition or as close to someone who is where you can get more support from other people who understand as well as get more education around it. And the focus is not just on taking medication. The focus is on general wellness that incorporates diet, exercise, sleep, and mental fortitude is what I call it.

And do they. To find that, Dr. Marsh, do they go to like a website? Is there a certain website they need to go to?

Yes. So the website ismental wellness space.com.

Okay. And I will put all those links in the description for you too, but some of you are probably going to want to hop over there before I can even get it in there. So it's mental wellness space.com. all right. Thank you so much. This has been so fun.

Yeah.

I wish we had you so more hours. We would just pick your brand and get all your wisdom. But you can hop over to Dr. Marks's YouTube channel and there is. There's so many good videos. I've been. I've been a subscriber of yours for, like it more than two years.

Oh, wonderful.

Thank you, Amber. Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me here.