What Types Of Consequences Will Make Someone Stop An Addictive Behavior?

Oh, and welcome to our live today. We have a special guest in store for you. We have Kyle from Sober Dogs, and we've got a good show planned for you. We're going to talk about which consequences or types of consequences will actually get someone to stop their addictive behavior. And the reason I picked Kyle is because he's had lots of consequences, from little to really, really big. And I thought we would. You, you let Kyle come be our expert witness to talk from his experience about what worked, what didn't work, what was helpful, what wasn't, and kind of the effects of consequences. Because I feel like a lot of people, families particularly, feel like if it gets bad enough, the person will stop. Right? Like, and so I definitely want to hear from you, but I'd love it if you would start Kyle from, like, the beginning, maybe when you were, like, really young. It just started and little stuff and works into the big stuff.

Sure. Well, of course, again, thank you for having me on. Always awesome to see and talk to you. It the consequences. You know, I, I, I go to a lot of 12 step meetings, and it's interesting to hear other people's stories about who had how many consequences, so to speak, and what affected people. And I, I guess in comparison, I did have a fair amount right from the beginning pretty early on. So 16 was my first major one. I got a DWI. And, you know, that was an interesting one, too, because I got a DWI about a week after I got my license. You know, I didn't hit any crash or anything, but it wasn't, like, pretty. It wasn't, you know, a minor one, I guess, so to speak. And the athletic director and everybody was like, you got to kick them off the team, no questions asked. A couple days later, they come to me and they're like, all right, we're gonna keep you. You got to go to five AA meetings and you got to report back, and that's your punishment. That was because I was a very good. I started on both sides of the ball, and I was a captain. So with that kind of planted in my head a little bit at the time, too, and I'm sure we'll dig into it a little bit later, but was if I produce outside things, you know, I can kind of get away with more unconsciously. That was a little bit of a thought in my head and some truth in that.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

But on the flip side, too, you know, somebody at a different time asked me, like, you think they should have kicked you off the team then? No, because, because that actually was a huge part of, like, a structure in my life and team and camaraderie and, like, it just was a huge positive.

Right. It was like, one of the things that was helping you keep it contained.

Exactly. So, and then fast forward later on, when I ended up stopping to play in college football was really when I went off the rails. So I think if I would have gotten kicked off, I probably would have went off the rails a lot sooner. And then there's even some that would argue maybe that's a positive, because then maybe you. But who knows? I have no idea. That was a, you know, a big one. And the next. So I got probation for that. Three and a half years. Probation? Yeah. And I lost my license.

So you got threatened to be kicked off the team, but then kind of got probation instead. And then you got regular probation?

Yes.

And then what did. What did your mama do?

My parents were, you know, very pissed, very upset.

They had to been like, you've had a license for a week?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

They were definitely very, you know, very pissed, very upset. They didn't really give me a ton of, like, they didn't really punish me. And I think the reason was, you know, license gone for 18 months right away, probation, which was like, curfew. I had probation, all that. So there was. They. That kind of took care of punishments. And then I also went through a kind of a pretty depressive period then, so they didn't really have to, like, ground me or anything, because for a solid month, I was really just bummed out. And I think that was the first time, too. I started to really think, like, you don't drink and use, like other people.

Tell us more about that. Because when you say bummed out, like, were those consequences helpful in some way? You know, did it make it worse? Tell us, like, the mindset that you're going through when that happened.

Yeah, a lot of I. I call it depression now. And it. I mean, like. And it was. I lost a lot of weight. I was more, you know, very upset at myself, upset about the situation. A minor thing that impacted me more because of the age was 16, just getting a license. I just bought my grandfather's old car, which was this beautiful, big Lincoln, you know, so, like, all these things I've been looking forward to are now gone. So I was upset and depressed about that. But then football kept me a little bit on track, and at the same time, there was just this little seed or something in the back of my head. Like, you. It's not normal to get a DWI at 16. It's not normal to drink the amount you drink. And also, so after that short period there of kind of being in my head and coming through it, now I don't have a license. I used that as the biggest excuse for the next 18 months to drink incredible amount every Thursday for any night when I was with my buddies. And I was, who's gonna, who's gonna drive tonight? Can't be me. Oh, you guys know it's not me. And that gave me a, like a springboard to just be the excessive drinker.

So in some ways it, it triggered a little voice in your head to say, something's not right here. But it didn't stop the drinking. It escalated it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, and the, some of the outside things too. As far as like probation, it was kind of a joke. You know, I remember the first day I went there. The, the probation officer was like, you know, the guy who just left before you stabbed somebody and got out of jail. And another guy did this. He's like, you seem like a good person. You never got in trouble. You get good grades.

You.

He's like, don't bust my balls and get in trouble and I won't bust your balls. And that was kind of it. I didn't see him for months. You know, I'd show up and just leave. I actually, I got arrested on probation. He didn't violate me. Nothing happened. And then after, I'd say two and a half months, that 9 o' clock curfew was like, in my own head, just totally disappeared. And I didn't follow it for a single day after that. And that's more of, you know, the outside consequences. They definitely didn't slow. They. For a short period, they slowed down some things because of, you know, I have to.

Logistically.

Exactly. Or, you know, okay, tomorrow I have to show up to probation, so I cannot drink tonight. And I was capable at that time. It wasn't that bad an addiction of doing these little periods, but it was strictly only because of not getting in trouble. If probation wasn't that day, you know, gone do it or whatever. No, no. Thought twice about it.

And so as a, as a 16 year old, you're right, that's a pretty big consequence, especially a week after, you know, just a, A week after you start driving. Right. You. You lose it. But I like what you said. I mean, I don't like it, but I thought it was interesting what you said about that it made you drink more. Because I feel like a Lot of people think if we make it tougher on them, they're gonna stop. But what usually happens is it gets worse. Yeah, because what, because what do you do if you have addictive tendencies and life is bad? Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

I think that, yeah, that is a monster point. And it's almost like at that point it was earlier stages, but I really didn't know what else to do. And you know, yeah, football and some other things helped positive outlets. But just like you said, it was society and myself and a lot of people, you know, we'd like to believe that. Okay, this should be enough. I did a video a while back on when somebody, two people are. However many people are getting high and somebody ODs and dies and everybody around in the outside scenario is like, that should be enough. That they shouldn't use again, you know.

Is watching Never, Never Overdose is never the thing.

No, and breaking that down on a smaller scale, you know, I explained in the video, at least for me and the people I've talked to, seeing that was so terrible and traumatic. My first thought is the only thing I know how to deal with that incredible trauma and emotion and all this. Use more. That's what I do to cope in parents and people are like, what? They just don't get it. But it is so ingrained at that point. It's, it's, you know, it's like a second, it's like breathing, you know, it just comes and then, shit, what did I do?

And I've seen too with a lot of young people, like let's say if someone dies, overdose, car wreck, whatever, the young people go to the funeral and what do they do is they're like celebration of life for this person or whatever. I mean, it's just like party, you know, from the outside looking in. It's an insanity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I totally get it because I did it, you know, I left. So I. My grandfather and my uncle both passed away in about a two year period and I left my, my grandfather's funeral and went and got. Well, I was high before and drank right after. And that was. There was other people doing it too, you know, like the Italian glass of wine. But of course I'm having four or five.

Not the way you're doing it. Right. You're doing it on a different level. Right.

In my uncle's funeral, this is something that to this day always, you know, something I, I had to work through and deal with. I lied to the people there, my family, my dad, it was his brother and said I had a. A group rehab outpatient, which I did legitimately have at nights, but I said, I'm going to leave and go to my group. And they all knew I was bad, so they're like, okay, it's okay. Leave the funeral and go. You've been here. And I didn't go to group, and I went and smoked crack, and that's all I knew how to deal with it. And I just. I think about, like, the insanity of that, and a person on the outside thinking about that is like, how disrespectful or whatever. I. I didn't know what else to do, you know, like, that was the only way to not, I don't know, break down or to cope with emotions, because that was what I did every day.

Good day, bad day, you know, it becomes an automatic.

Yeah.

It becomes so normalized. You don't really stop to think about it that deeply, I think. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like the regular. Right.

Yeah.

Most of the people you're hanging around usually are doing similar, and so that makes it even more normalized.

Yeah, it's. It's tough. But I. I also, you know, I try to think about. And talking with you has enlightened me the most of any conversations I've ever had about, like, consequences versus punishments and what does or doesn't. I do believe that in a good aspect in a life in general, that people change when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing, whether it's weight loss or, you know, addiction. So I kind of grapple and go back and forth with this whole concept of, like, how much do. Do people allow a loved one to fall or tough love, kick them out and all that stuff. And I don't know. And I love how you put it of more of let the consequences happen without being the punisher and the punishment, because the emotional turmoil will happen inside. And that's when hopefully the person changes.

Right. And then they have to just, you know, I'm just big on that because they have to take ownership. I really like what you said about how the coach let you stay on the team when you're in high school and how in one way it kind of gave you like a. A confidence or, you know, making it like whatever, you know, so that it just getting in trouble doesn't feel like that big of a thing. But on the other hand, you recognize how it actually kept you in the lines to some degree. Right. Because it gave you something positive. And. And I see that a lot because, like, somebody gets in trouble, like, you got the dwi, which in my mind was the consequence. Right, yeah. And so if you get. If the coach puts you off the team because of it, like, if it's a. A rule in the school rule book and you have to be put off the team, I would say that would be a consequence. If the coach is trying to teach you a lesson and put you off the team, I would call that a punishment.

Okay.

That's the way I would sort of differentiate that.

That's a. That's a great point. But, yeah, exactly is. You know, it would. I think it really would have been a detrimental decision. And it's hard for the people that you know in those positions because, you know, I'm sure there's other administrators and parents and whoever, like, oh, great. So, you know, people can just get in massive amounts of trouble and use drugs and not get in trouble because they produce or something on the field. But it really did. Was a huge part of keep football was a huge reason for all of high school. Why I didn't smoke cigarettes. I started at one point, but then, you know, really cut down a ton to stay good on the field. Didn't drink or smoke anything during the week. Um, and just really would genuinely wanted to, like, stay in shape and, and be. Keep my grades up. So it, it helped a lot of things. And I think it would have been a total derailment if I got kicked off.

Oh, yeah. Just listening to you say that that was your motivation for making any good choices. And so if that was gone, I agree. I think you would have spiraled a lot faster.

Yep.

So move us into sort of maybe like the next phases after high school and into college. What kind of consequences came at that time in your life?

A lot of. A lot of stuff. Legal issues in. In college, I didn't even make it. Let's see, my first year of college, we had to go to football training camp. We went early, so roughly, like, I don't know, August 5th or 6th, give or take. And then everyone else came around like the 25th or whatever, the first week in September. So basically a month in, I got arrested at college for, you know, just. I was pretty much in a blackout drunk, and I kicked one of those emergency call buttons that are on campus, like the. The blue light. If anyone's in trouble, they could hit it real quick. Why? I have no idea. I just decided to drop kick it myself and. And the. The cop came and I ran and he tackled me and I chewed tobacco and I Had a chew in my mouth and I spit it out. And he charged me with spitting on him, even though I wasn't trying to. Long story short is even that same night when I sobered up, I had a face to face with the cop. He understood I wasn't trying to spit on him. But I still got charged and you know, it was, that was the start too of a lot of that was more serious because that whatever they charged it with, assault, it was a, like a C or like a F felony. But it got dropped in court anyway. You know, disorderly conducts in college, open containers. I would just always kind of find a loophole. One of them. For example, I'm a New York state resident. My college was pa. If you had an underage drinking ticket in Pennsylvania, where college was, you lose your license. Doesn't apply to a New York license or not a state license. So all my PA buddies would be deathly afraid of getting an underage ticket, loser license. I didn't care. So I just kept getting them. And it almost became a badge of honor, you know, a joke with all of us of who got the most. And they would make you go to these classes. And you know, here's another kind of ironic thing. They made me go to a two hour drinking class every Monday and Wednesday. When I got my second or third underage alcohol ticket, I paid. There was a beer pong league that same night with a bunch of buddies on the football team. I paid this, these two girls to drive out and give me a ride back from the alcohol class the second it ended up. And I would put beer in her car before I the, you know, hours earlier so that I could start drinking on the way to the beer pong week and already go in there with a buzz leaving the alcohol class.

Okay, let's start with that because I think that's really important that, that was to me that's telling, right? Because you could look at, you could listen to some of the parts of this story and be like, oh, it's just a college kid, like a boy being whatever, right? But that thing you just said right there, that's the difference, you see, that's the difference between somebody who has a problem and a fraternity boy. And I know it can be hard to tell because like they're both doing crazy stuff. They both might get legal trouble, you know, like. But that, like planning. Yeah, I think. And I got to get it before and I gotta arrange this ride to meet me here and I gotta start drinking before I get, you know, like. Yep, that Kind of thinking that's where it differs, I think big time.

Yeah.

Thinking.

Yeah, the planning, the premeditation of, you know, having to have the alcohol, you know, planned and all this. The ride too, so I don't have to drive and I could drink for 30 minutes in the ride back and.

That, that's different for everybody's listeners who may be thinking, well, a lot of people go out with their friends and they have a designated driver or they have a ride. What you're talking about, just, even the way you said it, like the strategic. It just to me it's like there it is, like there's. Yeah, and I saw it right then.

Yeah, there was a, probably a lot of those that could have been noticed, you know, but, but not to anyone's fault. It, it was on me. And I also worked very hard to hide it. And the, the other thing that, you know, in this scenario that helped me a little bit is my parents are four hours away. So they're getting bits and pieces of what I kind of, first of all, what I tell them. And you know, again, I'm producing outside results to keep people at bay. So playing football and then, you know, I always got very good grades as far as they know. Just like you said, he got in a little bit of trouble. Stop being an idiot, stop drinking so much, blah, blah, blah.

Right.

But they weren't there daily to see the amount and you know, the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night drinking and all that. If they would have been, what would it have changed? I have no idea. It's not on them or their fault. It's just another point to bring up, so to speak.

Yeah. I don't know that there would have been anything anyone could have done.

Yeah.

Even if they could have seen your thoughts. But it's just that when you said it, those are things that I here that to me is like, does this person have a problem or not? It's really those like subtle things.

Yeah. Okay. I like, I like that too. Yeah. No, that's a great thing to listen for. And so in full circle with the football situation now because of injuries, concussions specifically. My second year there, I ended up stopping to play football voluntarily, but the NCAA wouldn't let me play for a year anyway because I got um, it was. Ended up being my fifth concussion and I got two in a 30 day period. So they're like, you got to sit out a year. I decided, you know, I'm done because I just, whatever I, I wasn't, didn't want to sit out a year and wanted to keep some brain cells. But that whole same thing like we talked about in high school, now my identity football player is not there. I live with three other guys on the team who were gone all day playing and excited and all that. That's what I knew for the previous, I don't know, 15, 16 years. I have all this extra time and I filled it immediately with partying.

Now there's nothing to hold the floodgate back, Right?

Yep. Grades was kind of it, like grades. And I'd say maybe a little bit of money, but, you know, my parents helped me help me through college, so. And again, I gave them what they needed to hear, so to speak. Oh, he got dean's list. Great. You know, and I do what I needed to do. And also at the same time, I had always enjoyed and done other substances, but not cocaine. I did a fair amount of cocaine in high school. And that was another big tell right away of. I used to leave parties in high school and go with this guy who was like seven years older than me, who he just was bored and drove around and did cocaine all night. And I worked with him at a restaurant and he just wanted somebody to do it with. And I would leave the parties and it would became like a running joke. Up. He left. And like, things like that or, you know, I knew some other friends who did it here and there, but not, you know.

Yeah, that's another. Like you said, that's another really big deal. Right. Because.

Yeah.

You may think, oh, they're just kids are partying, but you're leaving the party.

The part. Yep.

To go use.

Yep.

Not to hang out. I mean, that's just like a whole.

Yeah. Leaving the fun and pretty girls and my buddies to go sit in a car with a random, not ran. I knew the guy. Well, the guy. And listen to Blinded by the Light and snort cocaine, you know. But. Yeah, so that once I stopped playing football in college, the pain from, you know, I hurt my neck in the last concussion and break it or anything, but just a lot of, you know, dull pain, aches and stuff. So long story short, I got after physical therapy and a bunch of doctors appointments started on the opioid train, which I had tried prior to for, you know, once or twice legitimately with a wisdom tooth or a busted ankle. And then, you know, recreationally here, there, somebody's got Percocet, but not consistent. And now I'm mixing that with alcohol. And that also kind of steered me a little bit. The next three years of college, alcohol and partying Slowed big time. And opioids and just straight use and drugs increased big time. And just like that last scenario, I gravitated away from my buddies who were all, you know, good guys, played football and this and that, and gravitated to the people using, kind of sitting at home, not doing much, you know, active addicts.

Using is what they do.

Yes, exactly.

So I always say, like, there's a difference in high schoolers. There's like the, the kids that don't do anything, the good kids, and there's like the partying kids, right?

Yeah.

This other group of kids is like, no, they do drugs. Maybe this group does drugs, but this is what they do. Yeah, that's their brand.

Exactly. Yeah.

It's a difference.

Yeah. You know, I was able to kind of coast out of college without much external consequences, but internally I was killing myself slowly. You know, a minor example one day is I, I linked up with these people who lived in the little town I went to college that were just full blown heroin meth addicts. And he, I, I, you know, he could get me drugs. So, you know, I'd have him pick me up occasionally. He was very bold, I guess. So I'd always be like, don't come in my house. He comes in one day. And I mean, this kid, scars everywhere. Like, like pick active, open wounds, no teeth. I mean, if you put a picture of meth addict online, that's him. And my buddies are like, bro, who the f did you just bring into our house? And I was ashamed and embarrassed, but at the same time, like, he's my connect right now. I gotta go and left. And little, little situations like that would happen, but externally I was able to avoid any more law or things like that for the time being.

Now, I heard in one of your videos I listened to kind of a while back, one of the most powerful stories I heard you tell was about, and you haven't even really got to this part, but about being in, in prison. Not, not just being, not just that. Right. Like that's about it. But then failing a drug test and being put in solitaire, and I felt like that story to me was particularly powerful and it speaks to whether or not consequences fix addiction. Will you, will you share a little of that with us?

Of course.

Okay.

My, my first year of prison. My first year. So I got arrested May of 2013. I was in county jail for one full year, waiting trial and all that. And I used a couple times in there. We eat marijuana that just occasionally came in, I'd say like eight Times and that was more just because of supply. It wasn't around. So then I get to prison and there's a lot of substances. My first year was almost a joke, so to speak. You know, I just, I used a lot more than 50% of the time, whether it was marijuana, heroin, Suboxone, everything, and was able to not really get in trouble again just because I was low key. I minded my own business. I went to my job every day and I worked out and I didn't have, you know, any weird charges, so people left me alone. Everyone always told me, dude, there's only a matter of time until you get jammed up. Because they drug tested a lot. And every day at 3, we'd start guzzling water because we knew they usually came at five or six. I got moved to the alcohol substance abuse treatment unit, which was required for me to get out early. And I was down there about three weeks. There's a ton of drugs in there, of course, ironically, but. And you know, got called, failed the drug test. And at this time it was pretty much mandatory in New York State. Your first failed drug test, you're getting 30 days in solitary. Your second one, the guidelines stated anywhere between 30 to 90. And the third one, you know, 90 to whatever they want. So I fail. And you know, also the consequence of that is you immediately get kicked out of the substance abuse program, which is required to get out early. So now I gotta hope I do my 30 days, get out, get put back on the waiting list and then get, you know, back in, in time to get my good time. Went to solitary. And everyone prepared me, everyone prepared me for solitary, you know, bring these things, bring that. So I brought some sleeping pills and stuff just in tobacco. And my first day there, I got more trouble for smoking tobacco. And 30 days turned to 60 and solitary. Really? This guy right now, you do this to me right now. Solitary, 1000% did not help anything. It made it substantially worse. Just untreated addiction and alcoholism in a, in a room, taken away all stimuli, all help, all positive things like, you know, working out, weights, exercise, the job, you know, any of the programs.

Torture.

Yeah, plain and simple.

Torture. That's what it is.

Yep. And I actually so on the, about 28th day, so I'm on day 28 of 60, I. I totally lost my mind and was planning on killing myself. It's very hard to do it in there. They design it intentionally not to. And you know, guards walk around every 15 minutes or so. So my plan was pills and I had, you know, bought in Pills from all my neighbors, like you see on tv, with guys fishing under the cells. And I had about, you know, 25, 30 random things. Blood pressure, diabetes, whatever. And they pulled me out to go to a. A thing with the psychiatrist and found them. When I was talking to the psychiatrist, they didn't find them yet. So at this time, they took me out, brought me to him, and they just decided, oh, while his cell is open, we'll search it. I told the psychiatrist in that appointment I was suicidal. Come back to my cell. They tell me they found him. I get in trouble. So now I go to my hearing a couple weeks later. Documented in the hearing notes is inmate was suicidal prior to event of ticket of getting his whatever. My punishment for that was 90 more days in solitary.

Okay, so let's just stop here. Like, you guys that are listening, like, listen to this story. Okay, so. So Kyle's doing drugs, right? He gets thrown in jail. That's not bad enough, right? So they. They throw him in the jail rehab, right? Like, when there's more drugs. So then he does drugs and he gets thrown inside the jail. Inside the jail, right? Like, you're in isolation, right? And it's just like, they keep. They literally have you stripped down to nothing, right? Like, you've got nothing. I mean, you don't even want to live. And the answer to that. Give you more of it.

Yep.

That is insanity, right?

Like, absolutely.

What the war? What the world?

It's. You know, it's. I. I don't. It's one of the things where, like, when I talk about going to prison in general, I take full responsibility. I broke the law. You know, I didn't just get caught with a couple drugs. You know, I was breaking in houses and committing felonies. Full responsibility. But when it comes to this situation in solitary is one of those things where I genuinely am, like, did not deserve it. Insane punishment does not work. How can they even. Yes, I. The ticket, the official ticket was possession of unauthorized medication. As they were going through it, the lady doing the hearing was confused. She's like, okay, you had a Metformin. You had a. I don't. Blood pressure, metaclonidine.

She.

She's like, I've never had any other inmate get caught with these.

Yeah, because they're not drugs. To get how exactly. Right? You were just getting any chemical.

They knew it was for suicide purposes and still went through with the 90 days, which the solitary was causing the suicide. So let's give them more. It's just. And that's a common Thing in there, at least it was. You know, a smaller example is you have a nightlight in your cell. During the day you could turn it on full normal. And at night, when you turn it off, it doesn't go off, it just stays on like 20%, let's say. Pretty annoying. So we would put toothpaste on a piece of paper and cover it to block it out. You get 30 more days added on for that because it would affect your sleep. And it's like, how do you not expect me to go insane when I can't sleep? So I'm trying to turn the light down and you give me more days for doing that, I'm gonna act out. And then as soon as you act out and literally psychosis and lose your mind, the guards come by. Oh, look at him acting like an again, you know, and they could write you up for anything and give you more. It's this vicious cycle.

Right. Because now, now you're. I mean, the consequence is going to jail. But now you're in jail and you're being punished. Right. And you have all these punishments being layered on the top.

Yeah.

And it's just, it's just not helpful. Right.

Yeah.

And then, and then. So you. I get. Obviously you're here. Did you do your. Did you choose 90 days? How many days did you do that first time?

I did 123.

Wow.

So my sentence was 150 total. 30 for the initial failure of a year. Yeah, that's. I mean, I, I total. I did over 12 months in there.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, that was one. That was trip number two of five to solitary. So, yeah, I, my total sentence was 150 days in solitary, 30 for failing the drug test, 30 for getting caught with the tobacco that first day, which is another weird one. The prison sells me the tobacco. I could smoke here, here and here, but if I smoke here, I get in trouble. And then 90 for the, the pills, suicide. And then on probably day 75, I get a letter in the mail. They label everybody mental health wise from. I think it's four down to one. One being like pretty much. I don't know what the proper word is these days, but like, you're not there.

Gone. Yeah, yeah.

You know, like prior to coming into prison, one is like special needs. I was a three. And. Which means you just. You're somebody who sees the doctor once a month and you actively take mental health medications. So I get a letter saying, we're giving you a mental health time cut. So they cut off. What was it? 27 days of the 150. So I got. I did the 123 after I got out. This happened to me twice. So I get out, they move you to a new prison. And I think this is important too. So I'm. I'm at a new prison, and the day, at least for me, and I noticed a lot of other people when you get out of solitary after that long, a lot of things are. It's like, you know, sights, sounds. All these things are new stimuli. It's just. You've been totally. Just sucked dry of that. So I'm sitting on my bed in this new prison, and, you know, there's 50 other guys going about their business. I remember sitting there, this half of my brain is just totally suicidal fried, ready to. To just figure out a way to. To end it. And this half is like, the only thing is going to save you from killing yourself is getting high. But if you get high, you risk going right back. And I sat on my bed for like, 20 minutes not knowing what to do. Some guy comes up, yo, man, you got smokes? Yeah, I got some. I got some cigs. You want to get high? Come to the bathroom, give me 10 cigs. I got you. I. Let's go. I didn't know what else to do. Boom. Started the cycle right over again.

Right. To me, I mean, there's no more powerful evidence than that. You know, a story just like that that says for sure punishment won't fix addiction.

Yep.

And it's not likely that consequences will fix addiction. If you ask me, it. Sometimes it'll make somebody stop and think for a minute, but it don't fix it. And a lot of times it makes it worse. Now, yeah. Families that are listening, I'm not saying you should stop the consequences. I think you should let them happen, because that does spur the person to think. But for those of you out there trying to impose a bunch of consequences on people, thinking that that's going to. To fix them. If you don't want to listen to me, listen to Kyle, because he's telling you.

Yeah, it. It is incredibly, like, unique thing, though. I try to think about it and break it down of what really is that, you know, for the. The 12 step programs, the rock bottom, whatever. And it almost always seems like to me, it's an emotional bottom turmoil, which I guess outside consequences can. Can cause or push too further. But in the end, it's just when that person is totally. You know, I remember listening one day, the person sitting here was like, he did like, four prison sentences total of like 18 years. And finally decided to change. And the person sitting here was drinking and one day their kids came home early from school and caught them having a cup of vodka at like 3:00'. Clock. And that, that was it. That put her. Can't let my kids see that hit her bottom. And they're so different. But both of them had to do with like emotionally they hit it and then I think about what or how would these consequences affect it. You know, like we're talking about. It's. It's a incredibly interesting and like, weird thing to. To de. Dig into with every scenario being different.

It's just, it's. It's the external consequences. I feel like the reason they don't fix it usually is because you just think, okay, how can I not let that happen again. Yes, you, you get better when you decide that this don't work for me no more.

Yeah.

However long that takes, however, you know, deep your bottom has to go. Whatever. For some people more than others. But, but the, you know, it's just like, well, how do I not get dui? How do I not get caught and get solved? You know, you're not even stopped. You're just looking for the loophole. That's.

Yeah, that's funny. There's so many, you know, I'll, I'll stop drinking brown whiskey. I'll just drink beer. I'll, you know, I won't do this drug before that. Or I'll switch it up if I do Adderall when I drink. I could drink more and I can soak me up and always. I won't drive on that street a different way.

Just a way to try to avoid the consequence. Yeah, but I think it's not until you truly come to terms with the fact that you're. There's no way to avoid the consequences if you keep the lifestyle.

Yes, you might.

Can vote on a day or, you know, a week or even. But, but it, but you eventually come to terms with the fact that there's no loophole. Right. Like that there's no. It just doesn't work. It doesn't do what you want it to do.

Then do you think that is part of hitting that period of change?

You know, I think that has to be accompanied by some real change. Like you can come to that place emotionally. But some. Either steps have to be taken. Some. Some resources have to be like the feeling itself isn't enough without some action steps. I guess I would say very true. It's like you hear people say in Meetings like I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. That is the consequence that makes people stop. So the answer to in my mind, that thing right there. That's the thing.

Yeah. Well, and that's like with, with the rock bottom statement. One thing I love that I heard is rock bottom is whenever you choose to stop digging.

Yeah.

You know, and I'd really like that because there's no way to define it of where it is.

Some people are more hard headed than others. Right.

It's the same with me. I continued, you know, the rest of my prison time was in and out of solitary. All because of that.

Yeah.

All because. And this is the only in the. So shortly after that I got in trouble again. I didn't even make it 28 days. And general population got in trouble again. Went right back another 150 days was my sentence. This time in solitary and the end of this time. So I'd say, I don't know, maybe day 70 or 80. A guy on my unit had drugs and, and nobody wanted them, nobody else. And I sure. That's like one of the only times I'd say drugs kind of saved my life. It gave me something for like 30 days to just check out emotionally and to survive. Yeah. You know, because it's just, it's like delusions and psychosis and you just go insane.

And it truly is torture. And we're about out of time. I wish we could, I could feel like we could talk about this because there's a whole lot more to Kyle's story. And if you listen to some of his recent videos or even some of his older ones, you guys can hear that he's up. You can find Kyle over at sober dogs YouTube channel. And even after all this, he gets out of prison and there ain't enough people. There's more that happens on this stuff. Sorry. So I want you guys to go over and, and, and listen to that. And somebody asked me the question the other day, kind of like they said, do is there hope for somebody who's like 30 and they've been in and out of prison? And I said there sure is. You know, like go listen to Kyle's story and listen to this story and listen to that story.

You know, like, I think there's always.

Hope you're still alive.

Yeah, exactly. I was just with a guy the other day. I know people don't want to think about this, but he, you know, He's. He's about 74 now. He came in at 66 or 67, you know, I mean, yes, it's late and I. I think that's like. The parents hear that and they're like, Jesus. But there's always hope. Always. No matter what, if they're here, there's hope.

That's right.

Yeah.

Thank you, everyone who joined us. You guys go check out Kyle Roman's channel. As always, there are links to two free resources in the description. We'll see you next week.

Thanks so much.