When Family Member Refuses To Acknowledge The Addiction

Foreign.

Hello and welcome. You guys are in for a big treat today because we have our family recovery specialist, Campbell Manning, joining us. Hey, guys. I like to call her the expert witness because she's been there and done that. Today's topic is all about having. This is confusing, so listen up. Having you have a loved one who has an addiction, but there's someone else in the family who's in denial about the loved one's addiction. So we're not really talking about the person with the addictions denial. We're talking about the family denial. And it's particularly frustrating when you can see the problem, but someone else is kind of almost like sabotaging you behind the scenes because they're. They're in denial that the other person has an addiction. And I know that's something that comes up with the families you see a lot. Kim, was that right?

It actually happens, I would say, in more than 80%. And it's usually the dad. Not always, but usually the dad picking on the dads.

Why is it usually the dads?

I don't know that, except I think moms are more limically connected to their children. But that's just a theory. I. I think also moms are used to, like, you know, managing more homework and dentist appointments and sort of coordinating kids. So they're sort of the first to see that, like, the pattern is different.

Okay.

That's just, again, a theory.

The front line effect. Okay, I got you.

And plus, moms just have women's intuition.

But it creates. It creates a big problem. Right. Because you have. It doesn't. It's not always the. That we say that. Excuse me, the dad. We'll say that. But even if it's like the parents get it, but a grandparent does it, or even if the parents get it, but there's a sibling that does it. A lot of times, if you have this one person, and there's usually one that just doesn't want to believe that the person has an addiction, it can really interfere with anything that you might be trying to do to get somewhere with it. Right?

Yeah. And even if it's not flat out denial, it's sort of just interference. Like, I had a client this morning, and she's been coming and her husband hasn't, but he keeps sort of undoing what she's trying to do. And she'll say, well, you know, this is what Campbell said. And he's like, doesn't really care what Campbell said because he doesn't come here. So. But it's common because it's so uncomfortable to absorb this information and to sort of sit with it. So it's grief which sort of makes them incapable of doing it. So it's not that they're, they don't want to do it so much as they're incapable of doing it. There's also that feeling I think of what makes it happen is did I do something to cause this? And that makes me so uncomfortable that it can't be as bad as you guys think it is because then I might be culpable.

Right. It's a, it's a self protective mechanism of some sort. Denial is always protecting, protecting you from something that you're not ready to see.

Yeah.

Right. So that kind of talks to us a little bit about why it happened. Right. It's like the person's not ready to see it or it's like, oh my gosh, if they are, it means X, Y and Z and I'm afraid of that. But what do you, what do you do if you're the family member that can see it and you're, and you're trying to help the situation? Maybe you're seeing camera, you're doing whatever, you're trying to help the situation, but you got this other person who's over there. Usually maybe they see it like a little bit, they kind of minimize it. Yeah, like. Well, a little bit. But it's not as bad as you're making it out. You know, they kind of go behind the scenes. We see this a lot with married people. Like maybe the spouse sees it but the in laws won't see it. And then you know, it's like, and then you got these other people over here and it crystallized flooding and mess. So.

Right.

Talk us through a little bit about what it looks like when that's happening, how that all plays out and what to do about it.

Well, what it looks like is there's usually arguing and there's usually a lot of hyper focus on the event because your spouse, or Graham, whoever it is, I'm a sickle spouse just for today. But if your spouse is in denial, then you're going to spend a lot of time focusing on it, which is going to make you believe it even more and you're going to try to convince them that there indeed is a very significant problem. You're not hearing me, honey. The school is calling his stuff is, you know, I'm going through his things. And that makes the, the person in denial defend and dig in mostly again to protect themselves like you said. But that leaves Just a lot of arguing and. Or silence because you're so mad at him or he's mad at you that you just stop talking to him in general. So we had this in our family. Like, Frank just was like convinced everything was maybe not rolling along wonderfully, but it wasn't as bad as I was predicting. So we argued a lot or fought with in silence. They just refused to see it. So you really need to stop. But basically what that does is that leaves you completely alone. So angry, very sad, exhausted. Because you're just constantly trying to validate that you're right or maybe even that you're wrong. But you know, back there that you are right, but you can sort of almost fall back into for a few minutes, like, well, maybe I'm great. Maybe I am crazy.

You're being kind of gaslighted from the attic, Right. Who's telling you that you think isn't true? Right?

Yeah.

Your alarms are screaming. And then you have other family members and other outside people that are telling you that what you think isn't true. And so.

And you just brought up a really good point. Because the addict himself is going to smell this splitting. He's going to smell it, and then he's going to be like. To like. In our case, like, dad, Mom's just. I don't know what's wrong with Mom. She's just crazy. Literally just came from lacrosse practice and she thinks that I'm not even on the team anymore. So you do feel super. I mean, I call it salty, sad, angry, lonely, tired and yearning for the good old innocent days to come back for. For before this problem happened.

And then for a while you feel like the alienated person. Oh, because you're the one that's like, there's a problem, there's a problem, there's a problem. But no one listening to you, no one is taking you seriously. And then I love what you said earlier about like, then you dig in. You're trying to prove it. You're trying to prove it to the person who has addiction problem that they have addiction. You're trying to prove it to the other person in the family who won't believe it. And then you really do look like a crazy person.

And you really don't have anyone to talk to about it with this point. Because your spouse, who you talked about everything, is not willing to talk to you about it. And you brought up an interesting point. I can't remember in the middle of this, when Frank was not believing what was happening. There was a Friday night and he and my daughter wanted to go out for dinner and they decided to go for Chinese food. And I don't really like Chinese food, it's too boring. Thai is much more spicy. So I just was like, no, I'm not going to go. And they're like, what do you mean you're not going to go? And I was so mad at Frank because he wouldn't hear me that I literally stopped like even going out for dinner with them. Those are my trough days.

It was just sort of your way of fighting back. Kind of like a passive aggressive, like an anger.

Okay, yeah. I mean it's stupid. Very stupid. But yeah. So that makes that reinforce though that sad, angry, lonely.

But it also reinforces to a family member that you are crazy.

Right.

And then, and then they start believing the addictive person even more because they're like, I know this crazy person. Right.

Like she wouldn't even eat. Let's not even point out the fact that he wasn't even at home to go with us to eat Chinese food on a Friday night because he was out not being addicted.

Right, right, right.

My point.

And so that is something that the, you know, like you said, the, the addicted person picks up on that and they'll play that for all its worth. Because what happens is if they can get these other two people arguing about whatever's going on with them the whole time this argument is going on, this person, the addiction is just raining free. Right. Because. Because it's got y' all distracted up here in an argument about it while it just does whatever, just game on. Right?

Yep.

And so it's, it's like what you said, it just works against you. Just like, just like I tell families, the more you try to get the person addiction to see that they have problem, the longer it's going to take for them to see that there's problem. Right. Like, yep, you try to force it, they literally get all of their energy just trying to resist you. And it's the same thing when you try to force someone else to see it. Yeah, same. Same process.

So the answer to your question a few minutes ago is stop doing that. And really is as weirdly as it feels and sounds like aligned with your spouse or whoever it is. That's just say, you're probably right, there's probably nothing going on. Stop focusing on it. Stop handling the problems. Like I can remember the police called about something that really didn't was stupid, but I just left it on the voicemail and I just said, yeah, there's a call I don't really get it. Like, I'm sure it's not really meant for us. And Frank was listening to it. He's like, oh, my God. Like, really? I said, oh, I don't know. I'm sure it's not. It's not our son. It's completely fine. And I just left it. And then, you know, with enough time of me doing that, eventually Frank started saying, don't you think we might have a problem? I was like, no.

Who was?

No, I think things are much better lately. Like, we're good. I think. I think he's fine. And that forced him to get out of his role. And I mean, I'm literally sitting on the other side of the kitchen table. Like.

You're just gonna let him fall in it, weren't you? Yeah, but it's like. It's like if you stop trying to force everybody to see it and just back up, it shows itself. I say this about addiction all the time. You don't have to chase it, you don't have to look for it, you don't have to spy it down. It shows itself. All you have to do is just stand back and let it.

Yep, it's definitely going to. It's going to rear its head shorter in a shorter time period than you want.

Right. And if you stop, run interference and arguing with them and checking all the messages like you're saying and making all the calls, if. If the other person has to be on the front lines of it, they will see it faster, whether that's the spot spouse, the in laws, the whoever.

So that really does mean to stop engaging in it whatsoever. Like, don't go to the school for meetings, don't reply. Don't just tap out of all those situations so that you are rested and not as sucked into it, but also the situation unfolds more drastically for the addict because you're not trying to fix it. It's going to break faster.

Right, right, right. And I feel like with most of the families we get, you spend the whole first several weeks just. Just trying to get the. The parents on the same page usually. Isn't that kind of how that goes?

Yeah, it's like dancing with two casts on your feet. Because the denial person, you can't. You have to be so careful because they would just get up and leave and not come back. So you have to validate that you. And I would say, you know, I could be wrong, I could be wrong. There could be absolutely nothing wrong, but there's something going on, whether it's it's. Maybe it's. He's being bullied or something. There's something going on because your child is clearly telling you something is not right. So usually if once I start to do that, then the denial parent comes back in and says, yeah, I started looking and there's a lot of money missing and I had some pain pills in my. My top drawer, and then they are kind of gone. So they start to slowly come back in.

So if you just, if you just stop trying to force it. Because humans are just like that, right? If we feel like someone's trying to force us anything, we resist. Even if we were going to do it anyway. It's like, no, I'm not gonna.

Oh, I totally. I'm the worst person out there for that.

Yeah. So it's a pretty normal human reaction. It's also a pretty normal human reaction to be in that alarm state and to want to try to hurry everyone else along with. The more you try to do that, the, the slower it's going to go.

Well, sure, because you're. I mean, the person who just clued in is just frantic because this could get worse. This could, Their. Your kid could die. They could fail. Great. I mean, it's. It's catastrophic. And you start to feed that and then you do become looney tunes. But this. The best way to do it is to find someone you can talk to that validates and says, yeah, I hear you. Like, you're not crazy. But here's a better way to get everybody else on board. So you can then begin to learn more, plan, you know, build your strategy, which right now you're just in that spinning space.

So it's like, to me, it's like you work, you work really hard with the parents and you get the parents on the same page, and then somebody else gets in the picture and then the grandmother gets grandparents or their best friend's mom, you know, somebody else.

Those grandparents, they slide money in on the side and they drive them places and they buy cars and like, and, and I, I will meet with grandparents, but I can tell you I've only been successful in three out of probably 25. Where the grandparents actually come in.

They just, they just look at me.

And say, I can't, I can't do that. Well, I'm like, okay, well, it's your heart. Like, you gotta, you gotta follow your heart.

I think sometimes the cure for that is to let them go live with the grandparents.

Not really, but we try that, but it doesn't really go well.

I mean, it doesn't go well. But, like, the. When the grandparents see it firsthand when their money's stolen out of their wallet or whatever, you know, it's a little harder to.

It is, but I think it takes the grandparents so long to see it, but by then, the parents have just lost their crackers, and the kid is probably doing something really dangerous by then. Yeah, yeah. The grandparents have. If you have to look at this with eyes like this big. Grandparents have eyes like that.

Are you picking them because they're older? They can't see you.

They don't want to see it. It's like those sunglasses little kids wear that have the, you know, the lines over them. That's what grandparents are like. So they're wearing those like, little kids sunglasses.

Like blonder shades in there. Okay, I like that. Let's see who we have with us. Let's see what you guys have to say about it. Hey, Mia and Debbie. We have Debbie in here and Vicki from South Dakota. Silent Sister. I think that's a. That's a new name on here live. That's cool. Silent Sister says sleight of hand, script flipping, gaslighting, cannot force recovery. Spot on. Yes. She's talking about all those. Those magic manipulation trips there.

Yeah, you're right.

Let's see. Brit's got a question here. How do I support my husband with this substance abuse treatment when I want him to quit now, he says he's not ready to quit, and it's something he can't rush. How do I let it go and support him? That's a great question. We talk about that on this channel all the time. I talk about all the time. I'm gonna let Campbell answer it because y' all heard me say what I think.

It's hard. I mean, that's. It's really hard because you cannot divorce your K, but you can divorce your husband. So I think, you know, this is one of those where you just do the best you can and bite your lip, be patient. You know, I. I'm big fan of the game on phase, which is I'm going to let you. I'm going to give you so much rope that you can just hang yourself. But I'm going to do it quietly. I'm going to let that rope out very quietly. And the way to do that sort of is. Is to sort of try to regain some of yourself. Like, don't sit at home. Don't analyze it. Don't manage it. Don't ask questions about it.

Just get through this.

If he's lovely. Watch TV with them. And if he's not, go read a book, right?

And I think that that is definitely how you get yourself off the roller coaster, right? How you can kind of contain your own emotions, which takes a lot. It's like a Jedi mind trick almost. But. But what you're saying is, you know, he's saying he's not ready. And Campbell does such a great job of this in our office because, you know, we see families. I usually see addicted person. Campbell sees the family. And. And I'll. After I meet with the person, I'll tell Kim. I'm like, this is how close we are. This is how many. You know, this is what he's going to try. And Campbell, you're so good at helping the family members tolerate that trial and error process. What is it that you tell them? Because I couldn't have ever have any success or do anything that I do without you. I always say Campbell has a crowbar in her office and she prized the family off so I can do my work them. That allows people like Brit to tolerate that process of. I really come to it, I talk.

About the biology of the brain and what's actually happening and where. How it lives in the. In the survival part of the brain. And we talk about the stages of change and how it's super common to come in and out and that them shoving is going to keep him way back here much longer. And then I say, but I'm going to be here to sort of tell you what's getting ready to happen so you're prepared for it and it's not a shock. So this helps them, I think, bring down that anxiety of I don't know what to do, so I have to keep being frantic is. No, I actually do know what to do, so I don't have to be as frantic, right?

It's really. It feels like doing nothing, but it's more being strategic, right?

It's like, oh, it feels like doing nothing. But it's actually. What did I say yesterday? I used the phrase for the first time was you're. You still have your power. You're just not talking about having the power, right?

You don't have. You don't have to show it off. You don't have to show, you know the truth. You know what's up. You just let it play the course.

And you lower that distress flag on the boat. Just lower it. Someone. Someone will find you when you actually get there. But, right. If you lower that flag, then he might come to his better own Conclusion.

Faster, right? We have amm. Three says happy. I struggle myself. I realize I can't make anyone else see the light. You're so. You're so right about that, amm. But it's almost like the way I picture it in my head. Campbell's the metaphor coin. So I won't do this as good as her. But, like. Like, if there's this big hairy monster here, and you're trying to get this person that's right here to see it, and you're like, there's a big hairy monster, but you're, like, standing in front of them saying, there's a big hair monster. You're big hair monster. And they just don't want to believe you. It's like, best way, step out the way. You're blocking the view. And if you just step because you're like, don't go in there. Don't go in there. It's like, it's bad in there, you know? And if you just step out the way, they'll see it faster. That's the way I imagine it in my. In my head.

That's good.

What's your Campbell metaphor for it?

Oh, you know, I can't make them up. They just roll out.

I don't have one right now all the time. What are you talking about?

Well, I make them up, but in the moment, I can't make one up.

Have to be inspired. Okay, let's see here. Shelly says she wants to be on the show with us.

Well, not really, because I'm sitting on the floor in my office so that my computer can be behind in front of the window. So it's not like we're in this glamorous studio.

Right? It looks glamorous, but it's not. Let's see here. Teresa says, from my experience with my daughter, you cannot push them until they are ready. It is so hard to sit back and let it continue something not that I have learned. I think I understand what you're saying there, Teresa, which is just like, just standing back, it is really hard because once you see it, you can't unsee it. Right? And those alarms are just going off. And what we're telling you is not to ignore it and not to not see it, but to make strategic choices about how to let other people see it. Right? So it's like.

Yeah, because they're not going to. It's not that they're going to want to deal with the problem. They're going to have to need to deal with the problem. So you're Creating that need by being quiet.

That's right. We have Paula here. Hey, Paula. Nice to see you. Let's see. West coast weird Mom. That's a new name. West Coast Weird Mom.

Is that redundant?

I stepped out of the way, and my husband has told his family he's an addict, and they still refuse to acknowledge it. That's a whole nother thing. Speaking of that, it's like even the addicted person is saying they're addicted, and the family. Oh, my gosh. What do you say about that?

Well, I mean, I have that going on right now with the family, and the kid has come forward and admitted to a very severe addiction. And the dad is just, like. He's exaggerating. He's. He's always wanted attention. Like, he's completely downplaying it. I'm just gonna let that dad figure it out.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone mislabel themselves as an addict when they weren't. No.

We always say, if you even think you might have a problem, you have a problem. So if you say, I have a.

Problem, usually by the time you come to terms with you have a problem, I usually say, you're the last one to know it.

Yeah.

You know, you are. If I'm just. Sometimes when I. I hear what you're saying, west coast over there. Because it makes me furious when someone tells someone that they're not an alcoholic or they're not an addict. I'm like, dude, it is not a mistake people make before they ever say those words out loud to anyone. They have thought about it a long time and wrestled with it, like. Because sometimes, like, the. The guys I see that have alcoholism, they'll, like, tell their friends, and their friends will say, alcoholic. But the reason they're saying that is because they're like, I don't want you to be. Have a problem. Because that might mean I have a problem and who will I drink with.

If you have a problem?

Right, right, right. It makes me frustrated. No one. No one mislabels themselves, trust me. Mia says, what do you recommend when the in laws are addicts as well. Even if some acknowledge the situation, they act like it's no big deal or will drink in front of them.

Move. That happens a lot. Like. And families will. Like, I've even had families that will. Will say, we won't drink in front. But then they bring it in in red solo cups, which is, we all know what they're doing. You just have to have a boundary of how much time you'll spend around those people so that you don't have to get sucked into it because you can't stop them. You just cannot. And if it's his parents or your spouse's parents, then you may just have to get out of that mix.

Mm. Scott. Scott was on here last week, I think Campbell, and he was saying that sometimes parents will ask him, like, should I have all the alcohol in the house? Stuff like that. Like when their kid is in early recovery and. And they're asking all these questions about it. And Scott says that sometimes he thinks in his mind, like, these parents are asking him that after they've done spent $80,000 on rehab, been up and down the road 50 times, and he's thinking to himself, you're asking me that. Then I'm worried about whether you need a P. That's what he was saying.

You're just now thinking about that.

And if you're like, well, should I take it out then? If you're wrestling with it that much, Scott was like, maybe we'll stop to you. I was like, maybe. So he had a good point there.

Although I think it's a fair question early on. And I frankly tell parents, like, if your kid. If you know your kid is still out there using, you don't. You don't need to do that. You don't need to do it. But if your kid is in recovery and coming home, then you absolutely need to do that. Until they tell you they're comfortable being around alcohol, which is usually a year or so after getting clean.

Yeah, I think eventually it. It really isn't that big of a deal, but at first it is. And I know a lot of families will say things like, well, they. They can get it if they want it, which is true, but you should be able to relax in your own house. If you're fighting addiction all day and you're trying to be on behavior, use the willpower, and it's in the fridge. It's just like talking.

Oh, it's just in your face. And if you can't go Christmas or Thanksgiving without alcohol, then I go back to Scott's point, which is, that's not good, dude.

Let's talk about that. Yeah, exactly. Now, Campbell has made. I call it Campbell's codes of conduct. She's got a really good do's and don'ts list out there for parents. So if anybody's watching this and you're a. I did put the link in the description of the YouTube video for you guys to be able to download that for free. And She's. She's got some really good free.

I didn't agree to that.

Free. That's right. We're giving it away. Let's see, we have Kelly on here. Kelly says his cousin walks behind her saying he can drink if he wants to. I smiled so calm and said, you're right. But did you know he was out all night drinking and started again this morning? Yeah. Man, that. That was probably hard to handle with the smile on your face, Kelly. You probably wanted to just. Oh, my gosh. Wring their neck. I'm sure Amber says, hey, Amber, That's a good name. Like your name. How can you suggest helping a chronic relapse when they've done everything we can to step back? But the universe isn't allowing the natural consequences. Like a magic force is being there to enable. Oh, I know what you're talking about. And it's like, they can't get in trouble.

Yeah.

Like, they won't. They won't take them to jail. They won't fail them from school. Oh, I've seen that.

They won't get a dui. They can't get a dui.

Yeah. That will run out eventually.

Yeah, It.

It is shocking. And I tell parents this all the time because they're actually. I call the cops. I was like. And that's just a whole nother conversation. But, like, I'm like, you're going to be really shocked about how they're not going to do anything about it and how many chances they're going to be given. And it is like, wow, like the natural. But eventually it will catch up. But it does take longer than you think.

Takes longer than you want.

It takes longer than you want. Yeah. Let's see here. Our whole family is waiting patiently for my son to be ready to change. It's tough, but one good thing I like about what you're saying is the whole family. So that means you've got a lot going right there. If you've got everybody, everybody's on board with that. Campbell, any last words of wisdom, advice, do's and don'ts? If you're in this situation where you're dealing with another family member who just refuses to see it.

I think. I think you definitely need someone to talk to about it just so that you don't feel as lonely and crazy as you probably are feeling. So if you can, if you have a dear friend, somebody like that that you can at least bounce it off. And again, don't, like, take over every conversation with it, but every now and then, just Sort of say, hey, I really need to let off some steam, you know, can you give me 15 minutes for me just to vent?

Right.

Because it's. It is really, really difficult to be alone in this. And it's. You know, we've talked about disenfranchised grief on this for a long time, and that's what it is. So I think also recognize that that's what this is, is grief. And let those feelings. If you gotta scream and cry in the shower, scream and cry in the shower. Pound it out in the garden.

I think, too, I love what you said. Like having a ear to listen to and talking to another parent that's been through it. They're going to know exactly what you're saying and they're going to believe you because they're going to know what it looks like. And. And if nothing else, it just feels validating because you got the whole world telling you you're crazy and you're not seeing what you think you're seeing. And it really does help a ton just to be like, no, you're not crazy. That's definitely happening.

So, like, maybe a favor, something that has a parent group, but you definitely want a parent group where you can get some feedback, some. I don't know, some validation. Not just so you can be heard, but someone that can say, I've been there. I know how you feel. It gets better. Or here's what we did, you know, sort of gain from their knowledge, but also have them hear you.

Speaking of parent groups.

It's nice. That was good.

I didn't even think about that till you said that. I was like, oh, she's giving me the window. Campbell is opening an online parent group. It is opening in October, like in two weeks. So make sure you guys are on the wait list for that if you're interested. Because Campbell will be doing some live group coaching. She will be answering questions. You'll have other families in there who've been through the process. It's really going to be a super great resource. Especially if you're out there and you feel like everyone thinks crazy, but you know what you know, and you just. You need some support and some advice and some.

Just some like, road mapping to now what do I do?

Right. Yeah, I think that's one of the things that you do so well, Campbell. It's not just. I mean, yeah, you've been through it and so you can listen to someone, you understand it, but. But the thing that you bring is just like the. Now do this, this, and this. You know, some actual concrete steps, which I. Which I feel like makes you feel at least a little bit more in control. I feel like when the world is spinning out of control, you want someone to say, hey, this is what you can do, like pack your bag and.

Go to the basement.

Here's your options. Right. Exactly. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. If you related to anything in this video, make sure you give it a thumbs up. We would greatly appreciate it. And we will see you next week. Bye, everybody.

Bye, guys.