When Your Addicted/Alcoholic Loved One Isn't Experiencing Any Consequences... Do This

Today I'm going to be talking to you about how to very strategically confront denial, especially in circumstances where it feels like the person isn't really feeling the heaviness or the problems of their addiction. Basically when they're not experiencing the consequences, it's like, how am I ever going to get this person to see that they really do have a problem, that, that it's going to ruin their life and mine and other people's if they don't address it, if everything seems to be going their way. We actually got this question in our, from our private memberships group yesterday. The Kim and Campbell were going over the questions, getting prepared to do the the live call yesterday or the live coaching call. And it was one of the questions that came out and I thought, oh, that's actually a really good question. And I'm sure Kevin Campbell addressed it in the members call. But I thought that this might be a question that a lot. And I do have an answer for you. In fact, I'm going to show you how to sort of bypass some of those external things and go straight to the heart of the matter. This is actually one of the things that we teach inside of our invisible intervention course, which is our method for getting someone out of denial and into recovery. Particularly if you're dealing with someone that you might consider a functional addict or alcohol, meaning at least one and maybe multiple parts of their life are still seem to be going okay, but they have this addiction. But they feel like since they're functioning and they're not having all these other problems that they are fine and that they don't have a problem. There is a way to get through to this kind of situ. Through in this kind of situation. Now from the family members perspective, it can feel frustrating because in your mind it's like this person is ruining the finances. They're dig in a, you know, major hole in their relationships. They maybe are going to get legal consequences, occupational consequences, consequences with school, career, all the things, right? And honestly, those external consequences typically take like a long time to happen, a lot longer than you might think because you're like, you, you feel like this behavior is so risky, oh my gosh, this bad, terrible thing is going to happen. And so you keep saying it to the person over and over and it doesn't happen and it doesn't happen. And then you're thinking, oh my gosh, like why does this keep working for them? Why do they keep getting away with this? Are they ever going to learn? And in your mind it feels like there really are no consequences for this person. But there are actually consequences. They're just sort of hidden consequences. And in fact, if you can bring these hidden consequences to the surface, they're the ones that matter most. Those are the consequences that when people really become aware of them and acknowledge them, these are the ones that are actually going to cause your loved one to confront the issue and get out of denial and realize that it's taken them to a place that they don't want to go. All those big, giant external consequences are important. I'm not saying they're not important. But the thing about these external consequences, whether it's a big fight, you had a dui, oh, and a drug dealer, money, whatever it is, it's so easy in your own mind to come up with these like one off reasons why that particularly bad thing happened, right? Well, that was only because this. And that's only because my wife, she's all uptight and she gets upset about everything. Well, I was just running short on money this week that, you know, know, normally that doesn't happen. And it's like we find these ways of minimizing them and they really just don't hit home nearly as much as you think. Even the ones you think are the biggest, even like the one that's probably most surprising to people, like is when someone actually overdoses, I mean like has to be resuscitated overdoses to the family member. Or let me also add this one in there because we've had this one a few times recently. Like the loved one actually had like a mega withdrawal seizure, like, like a medical emergency related to the addiction. And as a family member, you're looking at this person and you're thinking, oh, they're gonna see now, like if, if literally almost dying doesn't get your attention, what's gonna get your attention? But honestly, those hardly ever get people's attention. And I know it's crazy, it gets the family members attention because guess what, you're the one that actually experienced it. Especially if you were there, you saw it, it was scary, it was horrible, it was traumatic. You may have flashbacks to it, right? And. But a lot of times they don't even remember what happened. So they've heard about it. But it's kind of like if you heard about something that happened to a friend, like, it's just not, it doesn't hit home with you nearly as much as it did the family member, these big giant medical things. But there are ones that will get people's attention. And what it is, is it's actually, when someone can realize that they're not being the person that they want to be, as in they're not congruent with their own values and morals and responsibilities and things that they truly deep down inside, think are important to be honest with you. When they realize, like, that's just not happening, and the reason it's not happening is because of this X, Y or Z behavior that will get their attention. And I know it's easy to, like, listen to me say that and say, well, how can they not see that when they got the dui when, like, we can't pay the bills because they're spending all the money on drugs or whatever. Like I said before, those external things, it's very easy to make an excuse for why that thing happened that one time. But when they look inside and they are not proud of who they are, that is a very uncomfortable feeling. That feeling of guilt will actually prompt someone to want to change. Now, you gotta be careful with this because if you purposefully try to push someone's guilt button, like you put, try to put the guilting on them, like the Catholic Jewish mom guilting on someone, it doesn't provoke guilt, it provokes resentment because they can feel you trying to make them feel guilty and that makes them angry. So they provokes resentment. When you do it that way, I'm going to tell you how to bring that to the surface, but you may actually want to get like a pen and paper out for this. This is actually a skill I'm going to teach you today. Again, this is like one of the skills from our invisible intervention. It's one of the skills that we teach inside of there in the new 3.0 version, which I'm super excited about. Literally just finished all the videos for it, just waiting the last ones to be edited. We've got nine new skills in it, and this is one of them. So what you want to do here is you want to stop and you want to think to yourself, this is where you may want to get the pencil and paper out. I want you to stop once you think about this person that you care about, your loved one. And I want you to think about how do they see themselves as far as who do they want to be? For example, it's like, it's really important for them to be a good father. It's really important for them to be a good provider. It's really important for them to finish their college education. It's really important for them to live a healthy lifestyle. I want you to stop and Think about this person and what are their core values? Now, I'm going to tell you right now already you're going to get blocked. Because as soon as I'm asking you do this, you're immediately, you're going to be defensive about it. You're going to say, yeah, but if they really cared about that, they wouldn't be doing this and that and the other. I don't want you to do that. Stop, stop. All those automatic thoughts, you're asking yourself, who do they want to be? Who do they see themselves as? What is it that they pride themselves in? What are their, like, hardcore values? I understand that they're probably not living according. According to them, the worst thing you can do is come and tell someone you're. If their value is being a good father, that they're being a terrible father, that they're not providing for their family. It's like, even though those things are true again, when you try to go straight into the guilt button, you actually, you're trying to push the guilt button, but you end up pushing the resentment button. And that one's no good. It works against you. Okay? What you want to do is you want to first, you want to identify this and you want to bring it to the surface. And the way you bring it to the surface is you just articulate it. All you have to do is see this in them and let them know that you see this in them. I call it identifying their good intention. Right? If you did nothing more than make one little tiny statement like, I know how important it is for you to be here for your kids because your dad wasn't there for you, Bam. End of story. If you can make one little statement like that, it goes straight to the heart of the matter. And they will feel so heard and seen and understood on such a deep level, they will immediately, their first thought will be, that's right. And their second thought, that they probably won't say out loud, but the second thought they would have is they're going to think, and I'm not doing a great job at that lately. If you say you're not doing a great job at that lately resentment button. If you say, I know how important this is to you. I know how hard you work on this, and you see them for their pure, true heart intentions. That is what's going to surface it. And when you surface it, that is also simultaneously going to get them to look at it. And. And also for them to be like, that is really important to me. Or I always have said I was going to achieve that goal or whatever it is, you know, and then they become aware of the discrepancy between their value, their intention and their behavior. This is how you get them to see it. Now, if you want to take this another level of two deeper, then as you got your notebook and your pencil and everything out and you're thinking about this person's perspective, I'm talking about from their point of view. I don't care if you agree with it or not, but how they see themselves and their situation. So now that you've identified their good intention, their value, I want you to also on your piece of paper, write down in your mind what are the pressures that they feel on a regular basis. For example, something like, I know you feel the pressure to be a good provider. I know you feel the pressure to make everybody get along and everyone around you is fighting. I know you feel the pressure to support your wife while she's feeling sick. I know you feel the pressure to be strong for your family. Think through their lens. What are the pressures that they feel? And then one more thing I want you to think through is what are the obstacles that they face in trying to pull off those good intentions and in trying to manage or negotiate all those pressures, what are the obstacles that they feel or what are the obstacles that they run into but they don't have enough time or you know, they have a job that doesn't pay enough, or you know, their in laws don't treat them well. Whatever it is that they perceive as the things that are getting in their way or that they have anxiety, whatever these things are, once you have these key pieces of information, if you can do a really good job of verbalizing that you understand these things to this loved one, if you can do all three of these, you are going to literally take that denial wall, that defensive wall that I'm not listening to you all, and you are going to sledgehammer through it. Not trying to brag here, but usually I can listen to a new client for 10 or 15 minutes and all I'm listening for is what is their perspective and and master skill. What is their perspective that no one else wants to hear? Let me give you some examples just from this week. Clients perspective. You're trying really, really hard not to drink. In fact, like you've only drank three times this whole year. But because you've recently had a relapse, it's like all that trying doesn't matter. And everyone around you, things you're not even trying, I can list to a new client for 10 minutes, I can surmise that information. If that's them, I can say that to them and immediately they're like, yeah, that's right. And then we're. And then at that point, we have a working relationship and we can talk about whatever and we can solve this problem from there. But if I don't do that, if I skip that part, that is the most important part, by saying something like, I'm listening to their whole story and I'm like, well, yeah, you did all this, but you're not going to meetings and you didn't call your sponsor and you didn't get that sober link that your wife told you to get or whatever. If I come out of the gate saying that I'm just going to be one more person who doesn't understand them or get them, and they may go through with the session because they promised their loved one they would do it, but they're not going to hear anything I would say. They're not going to care of anything I have to say. It's not going to be helpful. You have to start always, always, always from that person's perspective. Another one this week that came up was listening to someone. This happens all the time is like 12 steps just really aren't for me. Right? The person's thinking, it just doesn't help me to go to those meetings. I. There's all kind of reasons for that. Because I hear the same thing over and over. Because to be honest, like, my lifestyle is just very different than their lifestyle. Because I don't like the religious stuff, because I don't believe in powerlessness. Like, that's weak. That's the coward's way out. There may be a lot of reasons, but when you're in the addicted person's point of view, if you have any negative thing to say against meetings, counseling, treatment, it doesn't matter how valid or legitimate your reasons or rational rational rationales are, immediately everyone around you is going to think, they're going to roll their eyes and they're going to think, oh my God. It's always excuses with you. Like, apparently your family's not even worth going to a meeting for. Really. That's what everyone around you is thinking. And so when you're in that position of being the, the person in the doghouse, nothing, no one listens to anything you have to say. No one. Everyone thinks everything you say is manipulative. Everything you say is trying to get out of something because of that. You mid because of that. Those other people, the counselors the family members, the sponsors, they miss the truth of the heart of the matter. And the truth is, is that deep down inside, they don't like who they've become. They are disappointed in themselves. They want something different. Now, there are some things blocking them from being that person, from getting those things, but if you can just acknowledge that you. I see you. I see what you're trying to do here. I know the hardships you're facing, and I actually believe you when you say that. I believe you when you say there's some legit reasons why CH doesn't work for you.

You.

And. And I'll even add on to that. And plus this and this and this other thing about 12 step, they're like, I know, right? And then we're like, we're right here on the same page, right? There's. I know you really, really, really don't want to drink, but your anxiety is going through the roof and you're almost having a panic attack, and you needed to get through the day, right? It's saying, I hear you. Other ones are, I know you really want to stop using these pain pills. I know you don't want to do it anymore. I can tell, like, you're freaking miserable and you really, really desperately want out of this trap, but you can't get out of it because you can't just take, you know, a week and a half off work. And you definitely can't stop taking the pain pills and go to work because you're gonna be super sick. And you can't, like, go to HR and say, hey, I need to go to rehab, because you drive a forklift for a living and you're gonna lose your job. If you can just see things from their point of view and understand that, to be honest with you, their intentions aren't usually bad. As far as their. Their big goal intention. Now when they get in that desperate situation and they're just trying to get a buy with something, or they're just trying to not get caught, you know, they'll be weaselly, they'll lie to you, they'll. They'll sidestep, they'll be scheming or whatever, but as far as why they're doing what they're doing and why they're stuck in this, it's probably not as evil as you think. It may look selfish, and it will make them do selfish things, but in their mind, they're. They're not trying to be selfish. They get themselves trapped. And I'm not saying they don't have Any fault in it. I'm not saying there wasn't some choices they made. It was a whole bunch of choices they made. But the first thing you got to do is you got to understand it from their point of view. What I would like to do for those of you who are watching live today is I'm going to give you the opportunity to come on here, I'm going to put the link up here. You can pop on here. You will be live with me, though, so be aware, this is public. Share with me what's going on with your loved one. I'm going to give you the exact words to say to them. You're going. I'll ask you about your situation, going to tell them what it is I'm going to say, say these words and then I want you to go say those words. And then I want you to come back on this live, go into the comments and report down there what happened. And that way everybody can see either it worked or it didn't work. Because I promise you, this is a very powerful tool. And guess what? Not only is this going to work on your loved one, who may be a struggling, it's going to work on any situation, a difficult situation at work, something going on with your kids. You're trying to help them through a problem. This is always the place to start. Any, any, any important discussion, negotiation, job interview, anything. This is the place you want to start because this helps someone feel like you get me, you see me. We are collaborative. We're on the same page here. We're on the same team. And then you've created this alliance that's now a working alliance. I'm going to go ahead and put that link up here. If anybody feels brave enough to hop on here, then I'm going to give you the magic words to say. Now, if you have no contact with your loved one, it may be difficult to find a time or place to say this, but you could probably still tell me about your loved one. I could probably still give you the words. All right, this is the link. It's the link that starts with Streamyard. That's just the software I use to go live. And if there's anybody out there that's watching and you want the magic words for your loved one, hop on here. I'll tell you exactly what they are. And while we're. While we're waiting on that, as always, there are resources in the description. The new Invisible Intervention 3.0 is coming out in the next few weeks. Like I said, I finished up all the videos, I'm super excited about them. And for everyone that's actually already in the invisible intervention, you will, everyone will eventually get all of it. But for those of you already in there, I'm going to send an email out next week probably that invites the current people that have invisible intervention to be beta testers and you will get early access. And not only do you get early access to all the stuff, but you, you actually are going to get three private group coaching calls where I'm just going to hop on with just the beta testers and answer your questions, get feedback from you so that I can help you try all the new things and then you can tell me, like, maybe if I'm not communicating something clear, I need to add something in or something like that. So if you're already in there, definitely keep out for that. Keep a lookout for that email. If you're not in there, you can totally hop in there. Whoever's in there when I send that email out will get the opportunity to be the beta tester if you want to. Doesn't cost anything. It's totally free to be the beta tester. So it looks like we have someone hopping on here and joining us. Someone. Rachel. We're going to put Rachel up here. We're going to hear what Rachel has to say. We're going to see if we can come up with some magic words. Hey, Rachel. Hi. Thanks for joining us. Tell us about your situation.

I'm not sure I'm a good candidate for what you're doing today, but I'm willing to, to give it a shot.

All right.

I have a son who admitted.

By.

Using your approach, he is homeless. He's been homeless for about three months now. And he's extremely angry. Stay in my lane. It doesn't, I'm giving him $20 a day just to stay alive where he is. So I'm trying to keep myself out of the bad guy role. Yesterday I helped him, you know, I, I helped him with the $20 and I ex. You know, I said to him how much I realized that he's trying his best in his situation. So I just want to get back into basically the good graces with him, have a relationship with him.

Right.

It sounds like you're not, you're not, you're not doing awful at it. You're doing actually pretty good given the situation, I think, because you're, I mean, you could be making a bigger, way bigger mess of this than, than you are. So you're, you're doing really good. You're trying to help, but you're not over helping, so your boundaries are great. If I were talking to him right now and. And I just met him and I said, what's going on? Tell me about your situation. What would he tell me?

Well, he would tell me. He would tell you that he is in dire straits. He has no one who cares about him.

He.

No family, no friends.

What would he say is the reason he's in the situation he's in?

His father died when he was 16. He. A million things that have gone wrong in his life.

Okay, and what are the roadblocks for him? Situation or not, or what are the things standing in his way?

He is. I'm sorry, I'm getting feedback and I.

Don'T know which thing to shut off. Oh, sorry. Let me see if you've got YouTube open in another tab or something. That's probably where it is.

Yeah. Okay. Maybe this was better.

Can you hear me? I can, yeah.

Okay, good.

I think I figured it out. So he. He thinks he's mentally ill so that he uses that as a roadblock. You know, again, he's been doing this for so long that this is who. This is who he is. He's always been the cool kid on the block. So I don't think he. I think for him not being able to get himself out of this because he refuses to get help from anyone. Again, he did get to the methadone clinic, but I have no way of knowing if he's doing that and cocaine or, you know, what he's doing with all that.

Right.

So, yeah, there's a lot of. A lot of. It's just personality, you know, he's very righteous. Everybody is wrong. He's right. And this has been, you know, all his life. He's in it. I don't know that he sees himself in his own way, that he's in his own, you know, in.

Right. He's in, you know, what. What type of mental illness does he feel like? He struggles with?

Depression, anxiety. I mean, he might have borderline personality. You know, he's very he right now. He seems a little out of touch with reality. He's paranoid. He's. Again, he's pretty far into all of this.

Okay, and then my. My one more question, and then I'm. I'm collecting my magic words here. I got one more question. How does he see his relationship with you from his point of view?

He hates me to the core. He wants to kill me, you know?

Yeah.

The more that I have tried to put my boundaries up in terms of what time I will take phone calls and how much money I will give him to help him out, the more he feels abandoned by me and. And hates me.

Okay, so these aren't. I'm going to tell you sort of in general what I'd say, and you can kind of tweak it, little words here and there just to make it work. Exactly. For him. But I would say something like, you know, you really never had a fair shake in life. You lost your dad early. You've had one difficult or traumatic situation or loss after the other. Like you really were not set up for a fair chance. Right. And at this point, it's like everyone's mad at you all the time. Everyone blames you. They're on your case. No one wants to help you and talk to you. And you're. You're doing the best you can to manage this depression and anxiety, and you know that. Yeah, of course you. You did some of this to yourself, but you're trying to do better, and no one is there to help you. Even your own mom, who's supposed to love you the most in the world, is just constantly throwing up the boundaries and the limits and. And these gates, and it's like you're just stuck. You don't know what to do. I would say something like that. What do you think you would say to that?

Well, I think that he would probably say, no kidding, Mom.

Okay.

I mean, you know, he. He's very well versed in his disease and. And has been through rehabs and interventions and all of that stuff. But, yeah, I mean, that would. I'm willing to try that because again, I want to get on the right, on a good path with him because I love him dearly, and if nothing else, just to be pimp to know I am in his corner. I'm not against him.

Right, right. And so I think you're probably right. I love what you said that he would say, no kidding, Mom. So in my mind, that's the version of. Yeah, that's right. And that's what you're trying to get to. Whatever you need to say to make the person that you're talking to say, that's right. Not your right, but that's right. That's how you know you won this first match. Right. Because he's probably gonna say, no kidding, Mom. And. And then he's gonna add on some more, and when he adds on some more, he's gonna add to that list of things you just told him, and he's gonna tell you even more about what you just said. And then you're gonna repeat that back to him, and you're gonna reflect that. And then you're going to let that go on for a couple of rounds because it's kind of crazy when you do this and they feel hard and listen to. Then they just want to keep it on. I mean, they just pour it all out. And so you keep listening until you've pretty much got the whole thing he's trying to tell you. And then you say, and I. I really want to do a better job of helping you feel like I'm on your team. And then you say, you're saying boundaries, and you say, so, you know, if it's before, I don't know, whatever the time of clock it is that he can call or whatever, I'm definitely going to watch for you to call, and anytime I can, I'm gonna pick up that phone before then or whatever. So you're saying the same things, and I'm gonna, you know, make sure that I hold up enough money back to give you, you know, $20 when you need it here and there, whatever. So you're saying the same thing. You're not really changing your boundaries, but you're making the person feel heard, understood. And you're saying. What you're saying is in a. And here's what I'm going to do to help instead of saying, and here's what I won't do, and that. That kind of will. Will speak to his no one's on my side thing.

Right? Yeah.

So try that. And if you get a chance to try it, pop back to this video, go down to the comments, and say, amber, you crazy? Didn't work. Or it did work. We only have worked. Or let us know what happens. Okay. Okay.

Thank you so much for everything.

You've really changed my life. Appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome.

And everybody else, thank you.

All right, we're gonna pop up. Anna, I see that you're next, but I don't see your cameras on. If you turn your camera on, I'll know you're there. Oh, yep, there you are. And I can pop you on. Okay. Here you are. Hello. Hi. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me.

Sure. Tell us about. Tell us about your situation. We'll see if we can get some magic words for you.

I've been kind of on my own, getting sober and successfully working at it, but trying to get my boyfriend, who has the money to afford it and just doesn't care, but doesn't want to get sober.

Okay. So it's like you're trying to get sober, and you want him to get sober, but he's. He's got enough money to keep funding whatever he's doing, and so it's really hard. He doesn't feel that same pressure to give it up.

Exactly.

All right, here's the good news. Lots of rich people and rock stars and movie people get sober every day. So it's not the money. Okay. Yeah, lots of people have plenty of money still get sober. All right, so tell me a little bit more about. About him and how he sees a situation.

Well, I don't know exactly what possessed him to start doing the drug to begin with, because I wasn't around at that time with him. But, I mean, he doesn't have a whole lot of friends, and friends he does have also do the drug too. So I don't know what drives him or what doesn't drive him to want to continue doing it.

Okay. Okay. What would be his positive intentions, either with the drug or just in life in general? He tries to be what.

That's another battle that I've been trying to figure out with him is because he says he's supportive of me, but I've. I don't feel that way because there's so much more things that I've done in our relationship that he still hasn't done for me. And it's. I don't know, he has, like, a good relationship with his family and stuff, but they don't know about his drug habit either. And he tries to keep it away from them. And I. I'm not gonna tell them and get in the middle of him and the relationship between him and them and. Or me, his family also.

Oh, good call. That. That will backfire on you big time. That's a smart, smart call there. Okay. So his intention in regards to his family is probably something along the lines of protecting them, because he knows that would really stress them out and upset them, make them worry. That's would be from his perspective. Right, right. And from his perspective as far as his relationship with you. And what happens is you started telling about his perspective with you, but then you kind of went. Which is what we all do. You jumped into your side. He says he's supportive, but I do way more than he's in, which I believe you. But let's go back. Let's go back to how he sees it. How does he see it?

I. I've been trying to figure that one out, because he doesn't see a Lot of things when it comes between our relationship all together.

Okay.

In my perspective either. But I've been trying to understand his perspective in especially trying to get sober when I am, and he's not.

Okay, okay. Would it be fair to say something along the lines of, You love me, obviously you want to support me going through this, but now that I've got sober, it's like all of a sudden you're feeling this pressure from me that you have to get sober, and it feels a little bit unfair because that was my decision that I made for myself. And now here. Here, Here I am pushing.

But how do you do that nicely?

Just like that. Just like. Would he agree. Would he agree with that summary?

I think so. I mean, because I have asked him when I originally first, like after the first three months of my sobriety, and he kind of said, yeah, it has, like, pushed me to want to cut back, but it's not enough to where he wants to quit.

Okay, okay.

So.

So that. There it is. That's his perspective.

Right.

So his perspective is something along the lines of watching you get sober has definitely made him look at the situation differently, and he. He realizes he needs to cut back, but he's definitely not. And position where he feels like he needs to stop. Totally. But because I'm getting sober, he. He gets this pressure, and that's probably frustrating to him because it's like, now I've changed the rules of the game all of a sudden, and he's just expected to go along. Okay. Does. Would that. Would he. If. If you said that to him, would you get a nod or. That's right. Or that's why I've been trying to.

Say more or not than him actually acknowledging that I was right in something, because I think he has a hard time saying anybody's right. I know he has a hard time saying that with me.

Right. But that's. That's the key is you're not. You don't want to get him to say, you're right. That's the opposite of what we want someone to say. Because you're right actually translates to, shut up. Just go away. I don't want to have this conversation anymore. You're right always means that. That's right means you get it. Like, if someone's talking, you're like, that's right. It means like, yeah, we got this together, meaning we. It means yes, right? Like we're right, or you finally see me. So you're. You're aiming for the that's right, not you're Right. If you get the. You're right. You're like, dang it. And you have to back up. Okay.

Okay.

So if the. The thing of it here is if you can see it from his perspective and not knowing him, it's kind of hard. It sounds like he's not much of a talker, so it's hard for you kind of have to almost, like, mind read a little bit. But. But just thinking. If I just think about not knowing him, his situation, if I'm. If I'm dating this girl and we're partying up, we're having fun, we're doing whatever, whatever. And then all of a sudden, she gets sober and she's putting this pressure on me. I'd be like, okay, dude, like, I support you, but I sign up for this. That's kind of what I'd be thinking, right? I'd be like, now you change the rules of the game. Like, you knew I was like this when you met me. Those would be the thoughts.

I kind of feel like them are his thoughts, and I just don't know how to help work to change some of those thoughts instead of being those.

Right. The first thing you do to change them is just acknowledge them. Right. And you just see them, and it's kind of hard. Most time we don't want to do this because we feel like we're adding, sort of validating their point of view or. Or we're almost like conspiring with the other side or something like that. But it actually. What it does is it makes the other side put their wall down, and then you guys can have conversation. You can say, I know. Right? I totally, like, change rules of game.

Money.

That's not fair. I did the switch up. It's not. Right. I get that. He's gonna say, I know, and then he's going to be a lot more open because he feels her nurse. So try that. And then pop back in here and tell us. Tell us what happened. Even if you just get the nod, since he's a quiet guy, if you get a nod, that's probably kind of a big. From him, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So if you get the nod, then the body language says a lot. So you. You're like, win point. Okay.

All right.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Good luck.

Yep.

All right.

Okay.

All right, sue, you're up next. If you have your camera on. I don't see your camera, but I see you there. There's Sue. Okay, we're gonna pop sue on here. And then Melissa, Jessica, and Liz. I saw her lineup. I see you guys in the waiting room. We're gonna bring you on here. All right. Hello. Hey, Sue.

Hi. How are you?

Wonderful. Tell us about your situation.

So been married for 40 years and probably, I don't know, I would say probably about 10 or 15 years ago, it just started to progress. The abuse, the manipulation, the lies. And I say abuse, it's been ver. You know, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, gaslighting, you know, projecting, you. You name it. All the. All those things. All those.

Yeah.

And I enable, you know, I enabled it because I was raised in a household, you know, such. But. But now it's gotten to a point where it's just progressing and gotten worse. So actually I filed for divorce a year ago because the physical threats were increasing. Actually filed an injunction as well.

Okay.

And we kind of separated, you know, did. Haven't lived together in almost a year in that year's time. And about three years ago, he had. There was an infidelity that I. That I caught him in. And then over this past year, you know, after the divorce and after the injunction, he start. He had a 10 month relationship with another woman, you know, and now wants to get back together and has asked me to make some, you know, concession. Concession. Some exceptions. He's in denial, you know, does. He admits that he had, you know, some drinking issues. Says that his moral failures and character failures are because he's an egomaniac and, you know, refuses to quit drinking. Says that's not the problem. You know, it's. It's been. It's been. It's been a struggle, you know, even just trying to get through the divorce. So I haven't been. I haven't been doing a very good job. I kind of went off the deep end, okay. And I. And I want to get back. I want to try to circle back around and, you know, I understand if I. If I help myself, it begins to help him. But I also, you know, helping him helps me. So.

Right, right. So. So let me just. This isn't your magic words. It's just a thought. It's just a silly. When you first are saying all that, I was thinking, dude, he's. He's got the wrong argument. If he had any sense, he'd be like, it's the drinking. I'd be like, it's the drinking, babe. I would never have done. That's what I would have said. But anyway, that's not your magic words. But that's just. That's what I'm thinking. Okay. If he was smart enough he'd say he's still drinking.

Yeah.

What does he mean when he says, I'm an egomaniac? Is he being funny? Is he being humble? Is he being truthful? What does that mean? No, I. I.

To be honest, I think he's just using as an excuse, you know, for. For the behavior, for, you know, for, you know, having to be in control all the time, you know, for, you know, having to always be right, you know, for the lying. I mean, the lying and the dishonesty. Deceit is just rampant and has been for many years.

Is there any truth, too, that he has, like, tendencies to have to be right or want to be in control of things or difficulty admitting drama? Is. Is there truth in that? Oh, yeah.

Just give you an example. He actually said to me the other day, and I said, you know, you seem to have this need to always be right. And he said, well, I don't want to be right. I just don't want to be wrong.

Okay. Actually, I mean, I know he said that kind of funny, but it's actually probably true. He could have one of these personalities that's actually. Okay, so. So here's what we want to think. We want to think, what is the positive intention behind being controlling? Where is that? Because when we think about someone being controlling, we think negative. I mean, that has a negative thought in our mind. Like, you know what I mean? Like, oh, you think you're everything. You think you should boss the world. World. Like, we have negative, defensive thoughts. At least I do. But people that tend to have controlling behaviors, it. It could come from a place like that, like a narcissism or something. But most of the time it comes from either an anxiety where they have, like, all these, like, irrational fears that they're managing, or a perfectionism where they have a really loud internal critic that's always criticizing them and pushing them to do better and better. And sometimes that happens if you grow up in a household which you had critical parents, and they are always like, you need to do better and it's not right. And. And when people grow up in environments like that, they tend to particularly have a hard time saying I'm wrong, because in the childhood, it was not okay or safe to be wrong or to make a mistake.

You know, I think. I think a little bit of that is true.

Okay.

You know, but then he has also said that he. Well, and he's also said he's always. He's the black sheep of his family, you know, because he said the only way he could get attention Was. Was, you know, to be bad.

Okay?

To do bad things.

So he has this sort of mix between a fear of being wrong when people, like, can't be wrong. I know that it's irritating to everybody else. It's like, dude, we all make mistakes. Just admit it. But it's coming from some of insecurity or fear or perfectionism. Right. It's come from some place inside of them that's like. There's certain personality types. It's like, if I'm wrong, I make a mistake, I'm unworthy. So he's got a little bit of that going on mixed with a rebellious side. So sort of an interesting mix. Okay, so does he. Does he acknowledge how he treated you at all?

You know, he does. He. He said he. He accepts blame. He. He said, you know, pretty much everything was his fault, you know, but for. And that's only been recently, you know, but through the years, it's always been my fault. And he. Even at this point, you know, he still refers to me as getting him kicked out of the house. You know, not that he was violent or aggressive. You know, he. He did take an online anger management course, you know, and shortly thereafter, it got worse, you know, so he.

He actually does have the capacity to admit and he's wrong. Maybe not in the moment, but like he said when he says, I'm an egomaniac, there. There. It might be a little self deprecation, but there's an acknowledgment of something there when he says these things. I did these other things. Like, so. So to me, it's not like he has no humility. He's not a narcissist. Right. Like, yeah, personalities are. So. We're not. That's good. That's good.

Yes. I don't think he's a narcissist. I. You know, and he hasn't always. He hasn't always been like this, you know, it's just. It's progressively gotten worse and.

Okay, so that's really. That's really good to know, sue, because what we're trying to figure out is who he really is, right? Underneath whatever this mess is he's got himself in. Right? Who is he at the heart of him? What are his values? What is important to him?

Right. You know, I'd say family. Supporting his family. Success. Okay, is important to him. His. His reputation, you know, is very important to him.

He.

He has. You know, I think one of the reasons that he. He gets into trouble is, you know, one of the things he's Always said, and he even said it to me today, he said, you know, I'm not, I'm not. Doesn't matter what happens. I'm not going to live alone. You know, he has an intense, intense.

Need.

And, and to be with someone at any cost. At any cost.

Okay. When you say he is important to him to support his family, do you mean more emotionally or financially?

Financially, Financially.

Okay. So he's sort of career motivated and motivated by status and what people think of him. Yeah. And so he probably has a high need for attention. So when you say he can't be alone, he needs someone around him. Is it for the attention? Is it, what's it, what is it?

Yeah, I would say it's, it's the, it's, it's to fulfill something in him that's not there. Okay.

Okay. So, so here's what I would. I'm this total guess, but I'm thinking that this guy is a hard worker and he tries so hard to provide for his family and build a career, and everybody else probably saw him as great hero, wonderful guy, but because you're close to him, you see his flaws. And so it was difficult for him to be with you because you're sort of a mirror to the ways that he's not measuring up. I mean, to be honest. Right. Like, and so it's, it was hard for him to be around you because whether you said it or not, it made him feel criticized or not good enough. And so he dealt with that in these dysfunctional ways. Okay, Is that, is that accurate? Tell me what works about that and what doesn't work.

You know, I would say that was accurate, although I, I feel like I, I sincerely gave him a lot of opportunities, you know, to where we could work on this together, you know, over the years. I, you know, I, I.

I'm sure that you did. And when I say, like, you're, I'm not saying that you even were. I'm just saying in his mind, his mind, he can't tolerate somebody thinking something negative about them.

I would say that that's accurate, yes.

Okay. What's the positive intention behind that? Right. Because on the surface, that seems egotistical or something. What's, what's behind that for him? Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. I, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm guessing some version of. He tries really hard. He, he probably outworks most people, and he tries so hard all the time to do all the right things and make all the right decisions and all the Hard things. Would he say that?

Oh, yeah, he would, he would say that and he would say he recognizes that over the last year, year or so, you know, that he's been making some really bad decisions, you know, but there's always some, there's always some excuse.

What is the excuse? What's the theme of the. I know it's a different one, but what's the theme?

It's, it's usually, it's usually because of me, you know, that I filed for the divorce or, you know, I did this or I did that.

Okay.

I put up some boundaries.

Okay. So from his perspective, he's a hard working guy. He's tried like everything to be a good provider from his family, for his family. And, and yes, he knows that he's not made some good decisions lately and he could have been kinder.

But.

But it feels really unfair that you just abandon them completely like that.

Well, yeah, you know, and maybe, yeah, well, maybe there is some, maybe there is some truth to that, you know.

But I, Yeah, here's what we're looking for. We're not looking for whether he's right. We're looking for whether I saw you being hesitant. Are you hesitant because that might not be exactly the way he sees it, or you're hesitant because you're like, that's not fair. That's not what happened. What we're trying to get is how he sees it.

Yeah, how he sees it. You know, I, I think that he just thinks that it's all my fault. I mean, I, I, you know, I can just help. It seems that's, that's the impression that I'm getting by the, what he does.

Because it's all your fault. Because.

You know that it never would have happened if I hadn't filed for the divorce. You know, we wouldn't be in financial straits. Not because, you know, he's, he squandered away tens of thousands of dollars, but because I filed for divorce.

Okay. Yeah, but there were problems there before you filed for divorce.

Oh, yes, yes.

No.

And that was, you know, something I made him aware. I said, you know, if things he knew, he knew. I mean, I had told him that this is, you know, this was going to be outcome if, if things didn't improve and change. Yeah.

So. So the way I might articulate that is to say something along the lines. I might not say, and then I made everything worse. But I might say something like, and then the separation just compounded everything and it made a bad situation that much more difficult. More finance. So that might be the way you could say it, with integrity in your heart. Right. Like. But see things from his point of view.

Yeah.

Okay.

No, and I have. We've had. We've had some of those conversations. We have.

Right. And when you do that, does that. Can you. Can you, like, almost, like, visually see the wall coming down.

You know, somewhat. You had mentioned something to the other callers, you know, that he. He. He's. I don't believe he's ever said that's right. Maybe a couple times, but it's always, you're right. You're right.

Yeah. Okay. We want to keep going until he says that's right.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And. And there's other ways people say it. It doesn't have to be that exact phrase, but a lot of times when you're talking and they're going like this, I would count that as it. Because they're like. Like, they're, like, agreeing, right? Yeah, yeah. So he may have a different phrase or something. But you'll get. You'll. You'll know if you've hit the right spot. If you hit the wrong spot. You'll also know, like, if you say something that's not exactly right, you'll see him either sort of be like, make a face that's kind of like, I don't know about that. And if you see that face and you can say, it seems like maybe I didn't hit the right spot or maybe I didn't say that exactly. Right. And then what will happen if you say that is. He'll clarify where you missed, and then he'll just give you the answer.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Because you're not remembering this. And then you say, oh, yeah, you're right. I didn't consider this part. And then you say exactly what he said, and he's like. And then you're going to get the. That's right. Okay. Okay. All right. Try it, Sue. Come back and let us know if it worked. Okay.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you for sharing. All right, Melissa, you're up.

Hi.

Thanks for being willing to come on here. That's brave.

Yeah.

All right, so thank you. So my. My alcoholic addict is my husband. He was clean and sober for 21 years. We met 14 years or not met, but we started dating 14 years ago. So he was seven years sober. That was a big deal to me. I did not want to be with anybody that was in active addiction or alcoholism or anything. I rarely drink. I don't. Like, all of those things are just not a part of my Life.

Yeah.

Good call.

So about four months ago, he decided that he wanted to start smoking weed.

Okay.

Still for me, that's a hard no. Like I don't want that as part of my life.

Right.

It's become a big, big issue. I started going to Al Anon and everything that started when he first started smoking. I did everything that they said don't do and wasn't doing anything they said, do. You know, I was, you gotta try.

All those things too, right?

Yeah, I was angry. I was, you know, I immediately said I was leaving. So right away they told me, you know, don't make any major life decisions or anything within the first six months to a year. Okay. So I backed off quite a bit. I didn't interrogate him. I didn't make mention of a lot of it. Well, in that sense, he made that made him feel like I thought it was okay. Like it was still okay for him to keep doing it and then to start doing it more blatantly. Because at the beginning he was doing it behind, you know, before he got home from work or whatever. Behind closed doors, basically.

Yeah.

Then he started doing it more openly. I, it's, it's still a hard no for me. Like, I don't want this in my life. And every time we have a conversation about it, every time I say that he gets very angry with me and very that I'm so dogmatic. I'm. Everything's black and white with me and I. There's no gray area. And I said for this, there really is no gray area for me.

Okay. So you're like, you're thinking, you're thinking, Melissa, you're thinking, dude, this is not what I signed up for. This is not our agreement exactly. Okay.

And he was very. He was an active member of Alcoholics at all. And when we were together for the first 21 years. Well, I say that I take that back. For 20 years, the last year we moved from California to Texas and he didn't have his sobriety friends, his fellowship and everything, so he kind of stopped going to meetings. It's changed his, it's changed his perspective on a lot of things. And I've seen the changes. He doesn't see the changes. I'm person and I'm like, I don't think you realize that you've really changed. It's affected. We live with his daughter or they live with us. His daughter, our son in law, our grandkids. His daughter is absolutely not okay with it either and is like pulling back. The relationship wants to Move out. Doesn't want to be a part of the family. Like, not a part of the family, but doesn't want to be as close. Okay, that is. So as you're talking through with everybody else, what I've heard. What does he value? He values family more than anything.

Okay. Okay, this is good. You're giving me a lot of good stuff. So first thing I want to see, want everybody on here to see, is a while ago, when I said. I said to Melissa, I said, so you're thinking, this isn't what I signed up for. You did y' all see Melissa? She said, exactly. That's. That's what you want. You want that, right? That's the reaction you want, because that. That means you. You get it. And if you say it and you hit the thing wrong, it's totally fine. In fact, even better, because then they'll. They'll correct you. Well, not exactly. It was really more like this. And then you just say that. So. But when you get that reaction, you. You know that it's like, okay, they get it. Right? So from his point of view, it's. From his point of view, you're just saying, I don't want that in my life, but you're just jumping to a conclusion. And my guess is actually it's not. It's. It's something other than I just don't want you to smoke weed. I don't want you to use substances because. Tell me the rest of that.

So for me, it's. I don't like his. The way he acts when he's high. He's just less. You know, he just acts different. Like, he's not very communicative. He. He kind of closes down now, to be fair, he's saying. And this is another reason why it's a problem for me, is that. So we have his son that was murdered four years ago. He's really struggling with depression based on that. So he's taking antidepressants and all of these. He's like, well, why is it okay for me to take those but not. So smoke weed if weed is what makes me feel better. The antidepressants, although they change your. Your behavior, maybe, or, you know, they change your chemistry in your brain, they.

Don'T make him personality. It doesn't change. Right. No, I get it. Okay, so. So it's because when you go at him about the weed, then these are his defenses. These are his comebacks. Absolutely. If I could. You want me to take a Prozac? What's the difference? That's that's sort of his. That. That's how, you know you hit the wrong button. Because what we want is we want the wall to come down and that's the spikes coming up. So. So you do seem pretty, which I think is good. You're clear about what you want. You're clear about it. Before you married him, it wasn't like he was already doing it. And then you're with him. He was over seven years. You. You thought y' all were on the same page. And. And for you, it kind of. It is black and white. You just don't want that chaos in your life.

Exactly.

Okay. What? But he's gonna see it as. You're being extra. You're being ridiculous. You're being so black and white about this. Like, just. It's literally just because I smoked weed or I did whatever. It's just an automatic. It's terrible. You can't do it in immediate. And he's like, you're jumping to conclusions. Right, Right. And that's what he's thinking. And he's thinking it's not even causing a problem. I've been through a lot. Oh, my gosh. Can't you just give a man one little, like, relax vice or something? Like.

Exactly.

Can I have one little thing? That's what he said. Okay. Okay. So that's what I. That's what I would say to him. I would say. I would say, you know, you're so family oriented. You. Everything you do is for this family. And you're sober, you don't drink alcohol. You sacrifice everything. Been through a lot. And then here you are over here, married to me, Mrs. Black and White. I don't go no crap, you know? And it's like, I'm not even giving you one little. I won't even give you one little break on this thing. Like, that's what I've been saying, you know, you get. And then you can say, you know, I'm going to give you. That's fair. Because really, it's not the weed that bothers me. Here's what it is. It's like when I feel like I'm losing you or you're disconnected. So what you want to address is. You don't want to address the weed, the alcohol. You want to address the real thing. Because if he's smoking weed and it's not really doing anything, then whatever. Right, right, right. You gotta have like a legit reason more than just like, it's wrong or whatever. Like, I don't know if you're smoking weed and you guys had a 13 year old and 13, like, I'm worried it's a bad influence on our kid or.

Exactly.

Right. You want to go for the. If you're going to talk about, talk, talk about the, the after effects or where it actually is causing problem, not just the substance. Because when you just say, you know, I don't think you should do that, smoke weed, and you just immediately jump on that, then that's when he starts to think you're just being dogmatic or whatever, you know, like. Yeah. And use his words, the words that he likes to say. When y' all get an argument about it, use those. Okay. Try that and see what happens. And then you can say, I know I'm. I know I'm like pain in the butt and I have like all these rules. And then y' all can have a good conversation about it, I think.

Okay.

All right. All right, thank you. All right, Jessica, you're next. And then Liz, you are after Jessica. Hey, Jessica.

Hey.

How are you? Good. You got, you gotta, you got a situation for us?

Yes.

Me and my husband had been married for 15 years. Shortly after we got married, I found out that he had a problem with pills. And so for about five years we went through that chaos. And finally the only thing that helped him to reach out to get help was getting arrested.

Okay.

And he did. And after that, then he did go to a nine month inpatient rehab.

Okay.

He came home from that and he pretty much did good for a while, but he did transition to kratom.

Okay.

And that became a big issue with us because since that's illegal, he thought it was. Okay.

But a lot. Yep.

Yeah. So anything in excess though, can be a problem. But about last June, he had started getting back into heavier drugs again. And first it was the denial and lying and gaslighting. Then he finally did admit that he did have. He was back using. And we talked and he wanted to put things in place that would hold him accountable, which I thought was great. But then there was no follow through with that. Then it was back into the routine of the lying, the manipulation, the gaslighting. So we tried a joint account or he just put his money in it and I could. He just wanted me to monitor him, monitor it to make sure the money was being spent for what it was supposed to be spent. Right. So then when I would come to him to talk about it and I'd be like, well, this isn't adding up. Where's this money going to?

Oh, yeah, he puts A role dude. Yeah. Yes, he did.

And I told him in the beginning, because I was watching your videos, I was like, this is not going to turn out good because it's going to lead. Right. It's going to lead into the argument. And then I fell back into that investigating role as well. So I finally removed myself off the joint account. I'm like, this is not going to stress me out. I'm not going to keep up to where your money's going to sit here and do the good, bad role. Not doing that.

Right.

So this has been going on now since last June. The last three weeks, I've just totally shut down. I don't talk to him anymore because I just. I. I just. I tried the be nice kind of thing, and it's just giving me a lot of resentment. So now I'm to the point where I told him, if you're going to continue to lie to me, because about three weeks ago, I found out where he stole money from me. And he wanted to be accountable and take drug tests. So I ordered the drug test, but he got them from the. The post office box before I did, and then lied and said that he didn't take them, but they were locked up in his truck still in my jury. So you. I was like. Then he just turned it when I confronted him, and I was like, this stuff was in your truck? He's like, no, it's not. I was like, so somebody's trying to frame you. Like, what's going on? Like, how did it get in your truck? Did the cat put it in there? And so I was like, look, if you're just going to keep lying to me and we can't work through this together and communicate because then the tent, like, it'll just get. When I try to talk to him, he'll just get very angry, and I'm not going to sit there and fight back and forth with him.

Right.

And so now I just have not really talked to him in three weeks, and I don't know what to do from this point.

If I were talking to him and he came into my office and I said, why are you here? And he said, jessica made me come. I say it happens all the time. Why is she making you come in here? Well, because she thinks. What? What would he say?

She thinks I'm using drugs again, and she thinks I'm lying. But Jessica's crazy.

Okay. Okay. And then I might say, if he said that to me, I might say, why she think that?

What.

What make her think that? What he Say.

I think he. He would normally just say that I'm crazy and I'm making stuff up.

That's probably what he would say to you. But he says it to you to make you shut up, just to get. Yeah.

So what would he say to some.

Just making you, like, go away? He's just starting to fight.

Yeah. Somebody else, I would just think maybe he would say that. I don't really know what he would say to somebody else, because he's very. He's very good at. He cares a lot about what other people think of him.

Okay.

And I think the reason, like, he doesn't really want to open up with me and communicate is because he can see me deal with a lot of stressful things, and I can handle it. And I think he has a lot of shame and guilt that it's not that easy for him, because he said to me in the past, he's like, I wished I could be like you. I'm so proud of you. Because when all this went. Happened last year, there was actually cheating involved, and he was just like, the way that I sought out and turned to God. And I didn't go back into those old patterns of just wanting to be angry and fuss and fight and column names and put them down. I just really worked on myself. And so he has said before, I wished I could handle things the way that you do.

Okay. So. So my thinking is he might. If I said, why does Jessica think that I'm gonna say what I think he might say? And you say yes or no or sort of. Okay. I think he might say something like, well, I have been dishonest in the past. I used to have this drug problem, and I. But. But she just doesn't get it. Like, I'm really trying, but she just never believes me. Would you say something like that?

Probably. Yeah.

I even offered to let her, like, watch the bank account, and she just didn't even want to do it. Yeah. Like that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So. And from his perspective, it's like, you're strong, and you handle things in a. In a strong way. And one way, he respects that about you, but in another way, probably resents that about you because it makes him feel weak or whatever.

Yes.

Okay. My. My guess is, Jessica, I mean, when he said, watch the bank account and order the drug test, my thinking is that those were sincere efforts. Now, you know how I feel about you having to do that, because it just ends up not being fair. But my guess is when he said it, he meant it. But probably what happened Was. He's thinking, all right, I got to get these out of my system. And then the drug test came really quick, and he's thinking, I just need a couple of days to get this, like, all the way out. And yesterday was the last day. And he's, like, telling himself, I just need two days for my system to clear. And then he does it one more time, you know, and he's thinking to himself, I'm just gonna hold these in the truck, and then I'm just gonna, like, put them in the mailbox or whatever, you know, like, in his mind, he's almost there. He's gonna do it. It's like, tomorrow. I'm gonna start tomorrow. Yeah. Kind of thinking. Right. And so he has given you a lot of change talk. But the problem is, is the. The. The action steps that he's wanting to take. It's not that they're terrible. It's just that all of them involve you having to do it. You having to monitor the bank account, you having to give them the drug test. And that is frustrating because that puts y' all back in the cat mouse game. Right. Okay. What are his positive intentions, do you think? I mean, he has positive intentions probably that he's telling himself he's going to change. But in general, as a person, in life, what are his positive intentions?

I think his positive intentions are to provide for his family.

Okay.

I think that's. That's what he wants to do.

Okay. Does he work?

He does work. He's a excellent worker, gives 110% to his work. But he just got a promotion in the last year, and he has a lot of extra money, and since he got that promotion, he's gotten to a lot more debt.

Okay.

So the money's not going where he wants it to go, which, because we even sat down and talk, he's like, now that I've got this good job, you could actually take a break, and I could provide and take care of the family all by myself, like you've done for years.

Right.

So I know that's his intent.

Yeah. No, I think you're spot on. And the thing is, is if he's addicted to pain pills or Kratom or anything of the like, he's gotten himself to a point that he can't go to work unless he uses.

Right.

Wants to stop. But he also had. He just got this big promotion. He doesn't want to let any work down because he's got a promotion, and he's. And it's a source of pride for Him. And so he is stuck in this thing between. I have this dependency. If I don't take these, I can't go to work. I certainly can't go up to my HR department and say, hey, I need to go to rehab. They just gave me a promotion, you know, and so my guess is, is that he's stuck.

He's stuck because he's trying to figure it out, how he can do it with. Because he's going to get sick if he just quit. So how can I do this? And how can I beat this on my own? Because I know with the pride thing, because I've even said. I was like, look, we don't need your job if you lose your job. I've always taken care of the family. That's not important to me. What's important to me is you getting healthy and not overdosing. That's what's important.

It's important.

It's back, but it's. It's important to him. And it's. Yeah, right.

It's important to him. So all you. Your magic words, Jessica, are to say exactly what you just said, minus the but I don't need you to work part.

Okay?

You say. You say all the other things you just said. You say, you know, you work so hard for this family. You've worked so hard for this promotion. And I know you're stuck. I believe you. I know you really want to stop, but if you stop, you're going to be sick and. And you're trying to figure out how to get out of this, but you can't figure out how to get off this treadmill without losing everything. Just say that. And then he's going to say, and you don't even have to come up with the answer to that, how he's going to get out of that trap, but just acknowledging that you see him and that you see his situation, his brain will start to kind of figure it out, and he'll say, and he'll probably tell you more. And then whatever he tells you, you say that back. You're caught in a rock, in a hard place. I mean, what are you going to do? Going go up and tell your boss and you go to rehab, you know, and then lose your job, lose your promotion or something like that. He would probably come up with something, right? He's already come up with a couple of somethings, but they were like in. In a. They call it a half measure.

Right?

Okay, you're trying, but you need to do something more than that. Right? That's what they call a half measure. Right. But you don't say that part.

Okay.

But you get them to come up with. Well, though, let's. Let me try this. He might say, maybe I need to go on Suboxone and get on a taper. Right. Like there's a medicine called sublocade. You know what that is?

I haven't heard of that. I've heard Suboxone, but not the second one.

Sublocade is Suboxone, but it's a once a month injection. And people tend to have an easier time coming off of sublocade because it's so long acting. It drips out of your system so slow that you have much less like withdrawal when you finally sort of step off. So sometimes people can be on the supplicate for just like a month or two months or something. And it just.

Okay.

Because it's long lasting. It's sort of in your system and it dissolves a teensy bit at a time. It's like the. The tapering is so slow and gradual that it's just not as hard. And that keeps him working right. And functional. Now he has to make it when it works. Like anything else. He could say, yeah, I'm gonna do that. And then still be doing whatever, whatever, whatever. You know, he has to decide that he's trying to make it work, but there are answers. But acknowledging his situation and his perspective will help him sort of start to think about the solutions more. If you start giving him too many solutions, he just starts thinking about why you don't get it. And those won't work.

Right.

He needs to do in his head. You just need to clear the path for him to do it.

Okay. Okay, that makes sense.

All right, let us know.

I will. Thank you, Amber.

You're welcome.

All right, bye. Bye.

All right, we. Looks like we lost Liz. Probably because this has gone on so long, she probably had to get back to work or something. Something. I know we didn't have a lot of time for the questions as far as the questions in the chat today, but we had some really great people helping on here live and telling us about the situation, and I really, really appreciate it. We're getting more and more questions in the chat and I usually do my best to try to get them all, but lately I haven't been able to get them all. But I am working on getting a moderator which will make that easier for us. I know there was some drama last, last time, so we're going to do better. I. I see that you're here, Bailey. And Margaret and Smiley. I'm not ignoring you. Thank you guys for showing up and amen. I will see everybody next Thursday at 1. And as always, there's links in the description visible intervention. You can. There's free resources, there's link down there to have an appointment with one of the recovery strategists, whatever you need. Thanks, everybody, and I'll see you next time.