Why Addicts Lie: They Psychology of Deception

Here's what you're probably thinking. Probably thinking that people with addiction lie because they want to keep up the drinking and the using, or they don't want to get caught, or they don't want the consequences. They basically just want everybody off their back. And yes, it's true. Sometimes that is exactly why they're lying. But that explanation is really just a little bit, a little bit too simple because lying isn't always a calculated decision. How do you explain situations where somebody blurts out a lie so fast they haven't even had time to come up with a believable story? Like, did you drink? No. And then 2 seconds later, their brain is scrambling. Crap. Okay, now what am I going to explain why I smell like alcohol? That's the part I want to talk about today, because some people, after enough time in an addiction cycle, lying starts to become Like a, it's not like a carefully planned strategy. It's more like a reflexive flinch, like a psychological flinch. The question comes here because the brain registers it as a threat. The denial comes out before the thinking has time to catch up. Now that doesn't mean they have no control over it, and that doesn't mean that lying's okay. But if you want someone, but if you want to understand why someone who may not even think of themselves as a dishonest person gets to the point where they lie so quickly, and it's Almost automatic, you have to understand what the lie is doing for them. Now there's a biological piece and a psychological piece to this. So let's start with the biological side. When someone's been in an addictive cycle for a while, the brain, the brain part that helps with the judgment, the impulse control, the stopping or thinking ahead, you know, the weighing consequences part, all the good grown-up thinking part of your brain. It's not working or it's not functioning at its best. Then on top of that, you add stress to it, right? So you think that you're asking a perfectly reasonable question. Did you drink? 4 little baby words. Seems simple, but there's a lot more that's going on there. It's a lot to sort through really quickly. Like you ask, did you drink? And they're thinking, if I say yes, my parents may tell me I can't stay here anymore. If I say yes, Yes, my boss is going to find out. If I say yes, they're going to start talking about treatment again. And maybe the biggest one of all, this is kind of subconscious, is they're thinking, if I say yes, I have to admit to myself that I have a problem that's actually kind of bad, right? Everybody keeps telling me that's the case. So you ask them one question and their brain just had to sort through 25 things. It feels threatened. And we don't do our best thinking when we are in a fear place, when we feel threatened. So think about it like this. If somebody unexpectedly throws something at your face, you don't stand there and think, hmm, object approaching, perhaps I should close my eyes. You just flinch, right? Your body reacts. The thinking is like second after you flinch, right? For somebody who's been hiding an addiction for a really long time, lying, Basically works like that. Not because there's some special lying center in the addicted brain. That's not really what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the brain practices the same escape response enough times and it gets really good at it. So somebody says, did you drink? And their nervous system goes, danger, and out comes, no. It's like that automatic flinch. Then the thinking comes afterward. Now, Here's a really important part, right? Why does the brain learn that response? It learns that response because the lie works and everybody in the family's probably thinking, no, it doesn't. I know they're lying. And I know you do, right? That's not really what I mean by when I say it works. I'm not trying to convince you. When I say it works, it may make tomorrow 10 times worse, but for 20 seconds, It works. For 20 seconds, they didn't have to say, yes, I did it again. They didn't have to face the disappointment, the consequence, their shame. They get relief. Now it's a tiny bit of relief. It's temporary, but it is relief and our brains love relief, right? Tomorrow, that can be an absolute dumpster fire and the brain is still going, yeah, yeah, I'll deal with that tomorrow, tomorrow. We'll deal with that. What gets me of this is the feeling of now. So the person, this happens very quickly, right? It's like a millisecond. They're caught, you're asked the question, they're sorting through all those 25 other things that they're trying to think through at the same time. They're in that fear-based place. And so the answer over and over again and over again is they deny it. They minimize it. They leave something out. They change the story. The brain basically learns that pattern, just like anything else you do over and over, it becomes automatic. Our brain is designed for efficiency because there's a lot going on in there all the time. So it tries to put as many things on automatic as possible, right? So in addiction, this becomes so often, so frequently, so repetitive that it's basically like a learned pattern. At first, it might be like something happens. I think about whether I should lie. I make a decision to lie. But after enough times when you do that over and over and over, you don't even think anymore. It's just a perceived threat. Threat, lie, and then think. That's what I mean when I say like an automatic lie. All right. So that's the biological piece. I want you to hold on to that for a second. Put that over here. And don't forget about that. Let's talk about the psychological side, because this is where families, a lot of times, underestimate how much this is actually on the line for the person. You hear families say things like, you have everything to lose. Why would you keep lying? They've got a good job. They have a spouse who loves them. They have kids. They have all these things, like their reputation. So we think, if you have so much to lose, wouldn't you just be more motivated to tell the truth? Not necessarily, right? That might mean more motivated to lie because you're trying to protect those things. Sometimes having more to lose creates the pressure, more pressure to hide what's actually happening. And that's the thing about people in an addicted state is they're In this constant, I call it the fire putting out state. It's the here and now. They're in survival zone. So it's like they're just taking care of what is going on right now, what's right in front of me, and they're solving that problem. And because they're in that immediate problem-solving state, they're not thinking about the future, or they are, but not fast enough. And so that's why the unmanageability comes in. Think about it like this. Think about somebody who's built their whole identity around being successful. They're dependable. They're the one everybody else comes to when there's a problem. Now just imagine that that person has to say, I can't control my drinking. It's not just an admission about the alcohol. It feels like it's going to blow a hole right through their whole identity. Maybe you're a mom and your identity is, I'm a good mom. My kids come first. But now you're hiding alcohol in the laundry room, right? You're hiding the bottles in the trash. You're running out and putting them in the recycle like 3 minutes before the trash guy comes, right? You're doing all these things. Families will interpret this. Well, they interpret the lie basically as they don't care. Like when someone's lying to you, they either think, well, they don't care, or you think that they think you're stupid, right? Or you think, well, they're putting that in front of the family, or they don't care if they lose everything. But sometimes the person— it's true. I mean, sometimes it is like, I call it like a premeditated lie, right? Sometimes it's a premeditated lie. It is a selfish act. Sometimes they are knowingly acting selfish. So I'm not trying to discount that or take it off the table, but sometimes the fact that they're lying— So desperately tells you how terrified they are of losing those things. So don't you know? I hope you don't interpret this like me saying, you know, that oh, they lie because they love you, right? That's not what you want to hear, and I understand that. But that's not it's not what I'm trying to say here. What I'm trying to say is fear is information, right? And if they're terrified their spouse will leave. That means that, at least means that the relationship matters. Those things can eventually turn into the real motivation for change. But while they're in this defensive state of mind, they're just trying to keep all the plates spinning. A lot of times when I'm talking to someone who's really struggling in active addiction, the sort of image that comes to my mind is someone who's like, Standing on top of a ball, like juggling knives, spinning a plate on their nose, like all at once. That's what it's like to keep an addiction going, right? You got to do all that and do all your regular stuff that the regular world expects of you, like go to work or pay bills or take care of the kids or drive carpool or whatever it is, right? It's like trying to do all that at once. And I'm not trying to make you feel overly Sorry for this person, because when someone's lying to you and they're doing things that hurts you, it's really hard to have empathy for them. I just want you to understand why it's happening so that at least you don't take it personally, right? This is like where the whole double life thing develops, right? You've got the life that everyone sees on the outside. You know, I'm fine. I've got it all under control. And then you've got the operation that's going on behind the scenes. Now lying, it's not just like an insulated or isolated bad decision. It's part of your infrastructure. It's part of your automatic system that helps keep the addiction going. And the deeper somebody gets into the double life, the harder it is for the truth to come out, because telling the truth today may also mean Admitting that yesterday was a lie. And what you said before that was a lie. What is the old saying about the web of lies, right? It's true because when we tell one lie, we usually have to follow it up with another one and another one and another one. So it's not just admitting to the one lie, it's admitting to the whole thing, right? So then some of that deception turns inward because it's not just admitting to you, I did that, or to you, I have a problem. Now they're not only telling you a story, right? They're telling themselves one too. And that's where it gets really dangerous. You know how people say it's like they believe their lies? Well, a lot of times they do. Sometimes they actually believe it, but partly it's because they're trying to keep 2 things at once. This is like a cognitive dissonance, right? It's these 2 conflicting pieces of information. And maybe we know both pieces of information, but we can't integrate that in. They're trying to look at both pieces separately. Like, for example, if they see themselves as a responsible person and also know that they're hiding alcohol in their garage, then they think that they're in control, right? Because they see themselves as responsible. They know they're hiding the alcohol. The story they tell themselves is either I'm in control or I'm just hiding it because my family member gets so triggered when they see I'm drinking. And maybe that's because of their past trauma and I'm doing the right thing for them. It spins into the, I'm being responsible by hiding the alcohol in the garage. But then the whole day is organized around when they can drink. And you know what's easier than changing your behavior? Alcohol. Easier than changing that pattern that you're in is changing the story about your behavior, right? Like, I didn't pass out, I fell asleep. I didn't hide it, I just didn't mention it. I didn't think it mattered. It was no big deal. So sometimes the— if you're coming from the family perspective, the better question is, is why are they trying to fool everybody? Sometimes the better question is, is what truth are they having such a hard time tolerating? What is it they're trying not to see or that their ego just can't tolerate them acknowledging? Eventually reality will have to be dealt with. Everything always comes to the surface, but the lie in the moment buys psychological time. It just gives them a few minutes because a lot of times you're It's like a deer in headlights. They're caught and it's like a freeze response a little bit because they can't think. So it's just like, no, that's the easiest. I call it automatic no. You get an automatic no, I didn't do that. And then you press a little harder and then that's when you get a lot of the other deflection techniques, the starting an argument, the gaslighting, all the other stuff. So the solution here, it's not just Starting today, never lie again. That sounds really good, right? But if lying has become your automatic, it's the quickest way out of uncomfortable feelings, then when you remove the lie, you have to tolerate the feeling. It's just like if smoking has become your main coping skill and now we remove the smoking, what we've done is we've removed your coping Right? So now what are you left with? It's like, can you tolerate someone being disappointed in you? Can you tolerate the shame without having to change the facts in your own mind? Can you tolerate not knowing or not even being in control of what the consequences of that might be? That's a recovery skill. So you start by catching the flinch and you see this even in people that are sober, they're newly sober. A really common thing people struggle with is that they still automatically lie about little things because they're so used to lying about where they've been or how much money they spent or how long they were gone or who they were with or whatever. That you say, where'd you have lunch? And then they end up saying like, I ate at Burger King when they ate at McDonald's. I don't know, something dumb. And you're like, that doesn't even matter because they're just so used to hiding the situation. So somebody asks a question and inside it's like, oh crap, and your brain starts looking for an exit. Where's the emergency exit? So stop when you're in that situation and maybe say, give me a second. Or my— you can even say, or my first instinct right now is to minimize this. Or even, I don't want to tell you the truth because I'm afraid of what's going to happen next. But maybe you're thinking all that, but the lie still comes out. And then about 30 seconds after that, after the lie comes out, you realize that, yeah, I just told a lie. They obviously already know. And the good news is, especially if you're in early recovery, you can correct it. So the best thing to do if you're in this situation, when you tell that automatic lie and then almost immediately you regret it and you know that it's not true, just stop right then and just say— I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. That was a lie. I didn't tell you the truth. And say, I'm trying to get better at this. And then just explain the truth because the person may not like the piece of information that you gave them. And maybe they're still going to be kind of mad at you or something, but they will at least trust you more and they will at least respect you more because we can respect people that do the right thing. And part of doing the right thing is saying the hard thing, saying the truth. And that actually does build more trust and respect with your family member, and it builds more trust and respect with yourself. And that's even more important, right? Because it's not just your family loses trust in you, but it adds to that mountain of shame that you're carrying around inside all the time that you feel very defensive about. And that's why you start automatically lying even about stupid stuff that doesn't even matter because— You're hiding so much. It's a mountain of shame in there and you feel guilty for lying. And so if you think about it and you're honest with yourself, you have shame and that's really uncomfortable. And if you can't tolerate that shame, then when you think about it, you'll go into a defensive state even in your own head by blaming the other person or making up all these excuses or what you'll tell yourself a story, like a narrative that makes the situation more tolerable to you. Right? So It's almost like psychological self-medicating of shame. But you do not have to take the lie. You don't have to feed it. You don't have to water it. You don't have to raise this little baby lie seed into a full-blown adult lie or whatever. You can just kill it while it's little. You say, I lied. Let me start over. That's real recovery taking place. Has anybody watching now ever either had someone, seen someone do that or done that themselves, like told the lie and then said, you know what, that's not the truth. And then corrected it. If so, I would love to hear from you. Like, how did that play out? Did it play out better? Did the person get even madder? Did you have more respect or trust for that person? Did you at least respect yourself? You know, what was that like to experience that? Because it really does become automatic. If you want honesty, pay attention to what happens when honesty shows up. Now, and I'm saying that to the family members, right? If you want someone to tell you the truth, just like I was talking to the person who maybe is in that automatic lie state, they've got a responsibility and I want them to either catch it. I mean, obviously catch the lie before it comes out. That's like plan A. That's the best one. But if you can't, Take it back. Just say, hey, I messed up. I didn't tell you the truth. Take it back. Now I'm talking to the person who's the family member, right? If you want someone to tell you the truth, you have to be someone that can hear the truth. Now that doesn't mean you remove all the consequences, and that doesn't mean you're not allowed to have a feeling. You're not allowed to be sad or disappointed or hurt or upset. Those are natural feelings that you're allowed to have. But especially when you set up these super hardcore, no flexibility, super rigid rules about If this ever happens again, you're out, I'm divorcing you, or I'm stopping paying for your college, or I'm calling your probation officer, these big, huge things. I mean, I hate to say it, but when you have this, I don't know, no tolerance rule at all, you're kind of setting the situation up to make it more likely for you to get lied to. Now, does that mean it's your fault? No, but I'm just saying, let's be realistic here. Part of the recovery process is, and part of what you want when you're the family members, I shouldn't even say part of what you want, mostly what you want is to be told the truth because the thing about it that hurts so badly is being lied to, is being treated like you're a fool, is being made to think that you're crazy. So you want the truth. You really do want to help this person, but you're not necessarily helping by putting these super hardcore, no tolerance rules in place. That doesn't mean that you never decide you leave someone or you never remove the college money or whatever it is. But I would not attach it to if 3 strikes you're out or 1 strike you're out. I would keep it more general by saying something like, look, if this gets out of control, if things start going in this direction, then this is a possibility. And so you, I call it leave yourself Room to make a game-time decision, right? Is you're saying, hey, at whatever point that this chaos gets too much, these are the things that could happen. It's a lot better than just to say, if I find one more bottle or whatever it is, you're out. I'm calling your probation officer. You're going to jail. You're spending 20 years in prison. If you think about that, it's so massive. I don't want to excuse the lie, but you can see why it sets up the situation for a lot of people. If somebody says, yes, I drank, you can say, thank you for telling me the truth, and then get yourself some time. So it's like, does it mean you're still going to get in the car with them and drive if they tell you that? No, but you can at least reinforce the honesty, but still deal with the behavior. So the big thing that I want you guys to leave with from today is that a lie isn't always evidence that somebody has Nothing left to lose. Sometimes a lie is evidence that they feel like they have everything to lose. So yes, lying usually starts out as a choice. Then it starts to solve problems. It gets you out of discomfort. It gets you that relief, even if it's just like postponing it for a few seconds, postponing those consequences. It protects your ego and your identity. It creates like a temporary, I don't know, pause thing. And if you practice that thing enough, it becomes incredibly fast and automatic. That is the automatic lie. Getting out of it requires more than just saying, don't lie, more than just the family member saying it, and more than just the person saying it to themselves. You have to learn to tolerate truth on both sides, which honestly isn't easy from either side. If you're a family member and you're thinking like, okay, but what do I actually say when this happens in my house? That's exactly— we work on those kinds of things in our Family Recovery Membership. So I'm going to link that in the description below for you because sometimes we need more context to help you think through that. So my immediate response is to say, if someone tells you the truth, maybe you're not sure what you want to do with it, then just say, thank you. I appreciate you being honest with me about that. And then buy yourself some time to think about what you want to do with that. Because context matters here, right? And if you're in a situation where you're dealing with something like that and you need some help thinking through these things, the Family Recovery membership we have that Kim and Campbell run is the best way to do that. Because they hold 2 live group meetings every week where you can hop on there, you can ask questions, you can share a little bit about your situation. And it's like a small group. It's not like— like these lives where you put 3 sentences in the chat and then I have to figure out context from that and I just have to kind of guess and give you an answer. It's more individualized than that. So I'm going to put that link in the description and there are more resources down there. In fact, I think I put down there for you our manipulation guide. It's like a free guide where I walk you through the different types of manipulation, how to spot it, what it looks like, what to do when you see it. So get that. You can download it. It's completely free, right? If you're watching and you're the one that's stuck in the automatic lie place and you want to do different, then I put a guide down there for you. It's like early recovery skills. So it's totally free too. So I put that down there for you so that there's a resource for everyone. In fact, we have a whole page on our website that's free resources that are downloadable. So if those two aren't the right one for you, there's plenty on the site. So just check them out. All right. We're about to get into your questions and your comments. Bree is back there moderating. So go ahead and get them in the chat. Um, and let's start working through them. All right. Let me move my screen over, Bree, so I can see those little chats. All right. What we got going on back there, Bree? Trish says, I would love to reinforce when I get the truth, but I struggle with this because I don't know if it's the truth or not. I used to say things like, thanks for telling me the truth, only to find out later it wasn't the truth. How do I navigate this? Okay. So let's say you usually know it's the truth because it's not what you want to hear. That's my first thought, right? Is it a piece of information that you don't like? That's probably an indicator that it's the truth. But when you're dealing with addiction, maybe they give you Partial truth, but not the whole truth. So what you can say if you're really not sure is instead of saying like, thanks for telling me the truth, you can say, I know that was probably hard to admit, or something like that. And I appreciate you having this hard conversation. So you can even go into like, I appreciate that we can talk about this, or something like, you can still validate some positive movement, even if you're not sure. And here's the thing. I don't— in the grand scheme of things, Trish, don't worry so much about if they're telling you the truth or not. That's on them. That's on their conscience, on their heart. And if they tell you a lie and you say, thanks for telling me the truth, guess what? They have to deal with the guilt of that and they'll feel it even stronger. So, so if you're really worried about it, you can use some of those other statements, but I'm telling you not to worry too much about it. Their integrity is their side of the street. Your integrity is your side of the street. So let them deal with the fallout of that. You conduct yourself in the way you think you should with your own integrity and feeling good. So that's on them. Don't worry so much about it. All right. Kaylin says, with people you've seen who've been in recovery for a while, do they typically end up making amends with their loved ones? This depends on a couple of things, Kaelin. One is whether or not they're working a 12-step program, because the amends thing comes from the 12 steps and it's actually later in the steps. It's not 1, 2, 3, or 4. It's later in the steps. So even if your person is working a 12-step recovery and they're working with a sponsor and they are going to make amends, that may not come until later. And there's a reason for that, because a lot of times people are just really fragile and vulnerable at first, and they're not stable enough to do that without falling apart and being triggered and going to use and stuff like that. So if they're working a 12-step program, they may do that. The other thing it depends on, Kaelin, is their personality. Some people can tolerate hard conversations better than other people just in general. So they don't always make amends, but even if you don't see the person making amends, When you see a person changing their behavior, not just related to the substance, but the way they're treating you, the way they're reacting, the handling of responsibilities, it is at least communicating that they're regretful, that they get it and that they're trying to change. So some do say it out loud and some don't say it out loud. So those are the 2 things I think, the factors that kind of come into play with that. Okay. Psych6920 says, my loved one just asked to go to marriage counseling. How do we go and end up being beneficial without putting him in the hot seat, even though his addiction is definitely our biggest problem? It's interesting because it's not usually the person with the addiction that asks to go to marriage counseling. So my guess is if they asked to go to marriage counseling, this is my sketch brain at play here, but I guess it's either they asked to go to marriage counseling because they're in the hot seat and it was like their way of like a Hail Mary pass kind of situation of just like saying, okay, I want to do this. Let's do this. It could be that, or if it's not that, then it's probably that they think you are the main problem. And so their plan is to go and put you in the hot seat. And I know that might be surprising, but that's usually— The way the person with the addiction is thinking. It's the way they feel. It's not even just a lie. It's the way that they see it. So you could even ask your person that. But I guess if you're going to do it and you're going to go, the way I would do it would be gently and I would bring it up with empathy instead of with accusation. And that's a lot more likely to get you into a productive conversation instead of into a fight because I like your thinking here because if you go and it's like an accusation, they'll just stop going because it's uncomfortable and they feel like they're being ganged up on or they're at the principal's office and then they just won't go. So you got to bring it up with empathy, with some understanding that doesn't feel like you're lighting them on fire. How do functioning alcoholics cover it so well? Sometimes they seem so normal, but they're drinking hard liquor every day. Okay. Most of the time, if you're dealing with someone who's very functional and they're drinking every day, most of the time that drinking problem developed a little bit later in life because it means they had good adulting skills. So that tells me one thing, right? Is because they were adulting for long enough that a lot of those functioning things. They've done it for so long that they are autopilot, so they can kind of hold this addiction back here and still do those things because they've gone to work so long, they've done these responsibilities for so long that they can kind of do it without thinking about it a lot. The other thing that's important here is understanding that their tolerance is so high that kind of why they call it functioning alcoholic, because it's like they need to drink to function because if they don't drink, they're going to be really sick and they can't function and they know that. And so they need to drink just to get themselves steady, just to not be sick. Right. And so that's what happens when you get really into dependency and that kind of thing. And it seems wild, but it is the case. The problem comes in is that you're trying to always get to that sweet spot. You're trying not to get into that over-intoxicated spot when you're the person doing this. And it's like you always, I call it like you overshoot the sweet spot. Like, Sweet spot's like right here. You just overshoot it on accident. So it's like you're doing good, doing good, and then not good. But alcoholics can function for years and years and it— people on the outside won't see it. Usually the people that live it with you will see it though. Let's see. Our next question from Demetrius is, How does an addict differentiate justifiable anger, insult, and resentment from someone who isn't loving someone you should move on from? Hold on, I got to read that again. I got myself confused. How does an addict differentiate justifiable anger, insult, and resentment from someone who isn't loving you should move on from? I'm a little bit confused by your question. I'm going to— oh, there's more. Okay. Maybe this will help. When the addict's taking action and always trying and focusing on accountability, honesty, and being mindful to not react emotionally and get defensive, deflect, place blame, or intentionally cause harm. I'm still a little bit confused. I think what you're saying is if you're the addicted person and you're trying really hard to do the right thing, but I'm not sure if you're saying, but the person with the addiction has justifiable anger, or are you asking the family member has justifiable anger? I guess that's where I'm confused. So if you can put a little clarity there, Bree will pop it up there and I'll come back because I want to give you a better answer than— than that, but I'm confused. I gotta be honest. All right. Uh, Lynn Marie says, the recent, um, Breakthrough Denial course that I took with you last week helped me so much. Hey, that's awesome. Thanks, Lynn. I went from scrutinizing the truth and lie and the lie to not letting it matter and just like not carrying the weight anymore. I have to I still have to have a strategy for my own living and my own mental health. It's neither here nor there, whatever they say. I still have to have myself accountable. And of course, given when we're talking about family health and safety. Thank you for the positive feedback on the Denial Breakthrough. I really enjoyed last week with you guys. We did get some really cool results even just within that week. And I know we're going to keep getting more results. So it's exciting. But I think what you're saying is, is those strategies are helpful for the person, but you still have to take care of you. And that's how you tolerate that kind of thing is you fill up your own gas tank. Very insightful. I appreciate that. All right, here we go. This is Demetrienne again. But my partner is putting me down, insulting me, highlighting flaws, revisiting past mistakes, and not ever acknowledging my effort. Okay. I hear what you're saying. I got you. You're like, I'm trying. Basically what you're saying is, I'm trying my best. I know I did some bad things, but they're not giving me space to recover. Are we ever going to move past this? Are they going to throw this in my face forever? Or is this going to keep coming up? Usually the person with the addiction, of course, you just want it to be over with. You know that you're regretful. You know that you're trying your best to change and you're just like, I just want to put this whole thing behind me. In fact, I just did a video about that. This is going to be coming out in the next couple of weeks, I think. So take a look for that because it's like you're wanting to put it behind you, but they're still hurt. Sometimes they're actually traumatized and what you're getting is a trauma response, which sounds crazy, but it's a little bit like a PTSD reaction. It can be really fast, really big and exaggerated. It's like they can be really nice. You'll know it's kind of like a PTSD-type reaction because it's like they're fine, they're fine. And then they just lose their crap and you're just like, it's like you stepped on a landmine because that's what it feels like. So I think you need to decide, is this fixable with this person? Is this a trauma response and we can work through this together? Are there things you can do to help keep their nervous system calm? Or Is this person never going to get over it? And even though you've changed, there's so much water under the bridge that it's not going to be healthy for you. And that's hard to say without knowing the context, but I know that that's exactly what it feels like when you're in that position of early recovery. It's like, I'm doing my best, but they're constantly reminding me of every bad thing I did. Sometimes when they do that, they just need some reassurance. So ask your person, when this happens, what is it that you need? Because a lot of times they're saying really mean things, but— Which is an effective way. It's not a great way, but they're really asking for like, help me feel better about this. Or ask them to tell you what they need when that happens so that that doesn't keep going on. That would be my best advice. All right. Bree says we're to the end of our time for today. Thank you so, so much for everyone who joined us live. And for those of you who are watching on the playback, we're happy to have you here too. If you want to join us live, we're live every Thursday at 1 Eastern, and we'd love to have you here so you can be involved in the conversation. I put links to all those resources down there for you. Don't forget, there's the manipulation guide, the early recovery skills guide, which might be really helpful for Demetriane. So check those out and I will see you guys next week. Bye everybody. Bye.