Why 'One-Size-Fits-All' Recovery Models Fail - And What to Do Instead

In recovery, there's this idea that one size fits all, as in, one recovery program is going to fit for everybody. And as most of us know, that's just not very effective, which is the reason why I have our guest expert witness, I like to call them here to talk to us about different personality types. And not only are we going to talk about different personality types, but we're going to talk about how that impacts recovery, how it impacts yourself if you're in recovery or if you have a loved one who's struggling. Maybe ways to approach certain personality types that would work better or differently than other types to help you be more strategic in how you go about getting your life and your family back on track. Thank you so much for joining us. We're so glad you're here. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Sure. My name is Tom Lehue and I have a YouTube channel on the Enneagram. So that's my primary work is with personality information, personality profiles. There's a lot of different personality systems out there. And all of them, I think, make a contribution. Disc Myers Briggs, CliftonStrengths I mean, all of these things are very useful. And the Enneagram is just one of those personality profiles. But difference with the Enneagram is it kind of like digs in a little bit. It's not something that you look at to just see the best that you bring to the table. It also uncovers some darker aspects of ourselves that maybe we're blind to or we don't necessarily want to pay attention to. And so it does kind of like expose us a little bit and help us to see things about ourselves that might be uncomfortable, but very useful in growth or development or personal development. And so that's primarily what I do is the channel and then coaching, working with people and especially a lot of relationships and that kind of stuff. Because once we know what your personality types, we might be able to help you have a better marriage or a better relationship, or at least understand each other better and see each other's point of view and perspective a little bit better. So that's primarily what I what I do.

Amber, I'm really glad you mentioned about how Enneagram goes deeper because that's why we use Enneagram in our office too. Because I like the fact that it gets to underlying motives. Because I like to tell my clients, you know, it's like you and I could do the same thing, but for two totally different reasons. And for the work that I do, the reasons matter. And so I Like that it gets like you're saying in that deeper underlying part, not just the good, but also some of those maybe character defects or underlying anxieties that could be driving our behavior.

Yeah, it's one of those things that like, people may not even be aware of some of the impulses and compulsions and motivations that drive their actions and thoughts and thinking and behaviors. But then once they see it, once they take an Enneagram test or they meet with an Enneagram coach, once they see it and a light is shined on it, then often they have that experience of like, I feel like you're telling me things I already know about myself but didn't know that I knew about myself or didn't see it as potential problems until now. A light shines on it and then, you know, it really helps us understand more about ourselves and therefore, you know, the people that we tried to get along with, the people that we love, it helps us to see. For one thing, I always say it like this. It's nice to know you're not crazy. Sometimes when you, when you learn more about your personality type, they go, okay, so that's why I do what I do, or that's why I value what I value. I'm not crazy. Okay.

I might say it's nice to know what flavor of crazy you are. Where.

Yeah, there you go.

You know what flavor.

Right, right.

And I love that. I'm right on board with you, Dr. Hugh. It's like I love that it gives a language, especially in a relationship. It gets a language to describe where you're coming from for the other person to understand and for you to understand them. It really, I think can make a big difference. I love that you do relationship coaching using Enneagram. I think that's fantastic for sure. So if you're, if you're watching here live or on the playback, put a little hand emoji in the comments if you are familiar with the Enneagram and let us know if you're not. That way we can make sure that we gear this conversation to meet everybody's needs. Dr. Lahue, can you start just by telling us what the types are? Give us a little brief description because not everybody will be familiar with it.

Right. When you talk to somebody like myself that's all excited about the Enneagram, you know, we talk in numbers and so that can be a little off putting or confusing because, you know, it can be uncomfortable to what you're telling me I'm a four. What's a four? Or A five. You know, so we. Basically, what the Enneagram suggests is that there's nine basic personality types, there's nine perspectives on the world, and those nine different perspectives, they exist within three different groups. So essentially, we have three big problems as humans. Why is everything broken? Where does my worth and value come from? And how are we supposed to survive in this scary world? And there's three different sort of solutions to those three main problems. And if you go around the dialogue and look at them, realize every one of these is offensive. And I'm not trying to be offensive, but they all are kind of offensive. And that's why the Enneagram, I think, is unlike some of the other personality profiles, because it does sort of offend your sensibilities about yourself and validates.

It's validating and offensive at the same time.

Yeah, right, right, right, right, right. It does validate and, you know, show us kind of your superpowers. And that's. That's awesome to know that. But it also kind of shows you what your Kryptonite is. And that can be very humbling for. For. For us. And, and usually you may be confused at first, like, well, I might be this or I might be that. But often it's the one that's the more painful one to you that is probably the accurate one, because that, it's, It's. It's digging into some places, hitting the.

Button, it's hitting the spot.

Right, right, right, right. If somebody said to me, I'm six foot two, if you're short, I would say, I don't resonate with that. That doesn't feel offensive to me because it doesn't sound legitimate. But if they said, you're bald, I was like, wow, okay, you got me. That would. What am I going to do? That's. So when. When. When you. When you start to get over the target, then it probably is going to be a little more sensitive. Right? And so if you go around that dial one through nine, you could think of them in these terms. One type one is the perfectionist, the reformer. This is a person very focused on, has a strong sense of responsibility, wants to be good, has the sin of anger because they could get frustrated when they can't meet those perfectionistic standards, or other people don't seem to care a little bit. Like the dad in the family, you know, the proverbial father figure of do your homework and be responsible and clean your room. You don't get dessert until you clean. Okay? The type 2, the giver, the helper. This Is a person that, you know, comes into the world with a great capacity to love others, sees themselves as kind of a servant. I'm here to help people and take care of people. But they. They have the underlying sin of pride, which is hard for two to sometimes see. But they're very comfortable in the position of offering help to others, but sometimes uncomfortable in receiving care or attention from others. And they. They could. They kind of like the mom in the family, like, let me nurture you. Let me help you. Let me take care of you. What do you need from me? I'm here to take care of you. Don'. Shine the spotlight on me. The sin underneath it is pride, because that sense of, I don't want to need things. I want other people to help them. And they kind of have this core fear of, you know, what if people don't really love me or care about me after all I've done for them? Okay, and then type threes, the achievers, the performers. These are very driven, motivated people that get a sense of value from accomplishing and achieving and winning. The athletes, they're aspiring to be the best version version of themselves. But, you know, the sin underneath is deceit, because sometimes threes have a hard time showing you them their true selves. They could be a little focused on image management, and it could be uncomfortable to see their. Their mistakes or their failures. They have a fear of failure or a fear of, you know, not being able to reach their full potential. And type fours right next to them. So I always think of the threes as being, like, the oldest child in the family. Like, look at me. Watch me. Look at what, you know, pay attention to me. Did you see what I just did? You see? Okay, type four is that other child in the family. Like, well, where do I fit in? Where do I belong? They're called the romantic or the, let's see, the individualist. I got to do things my own way. I got to listen to my own voice. I. I can't be what, you know, I can't pretend to be something I'm not. And so they're very focused on how they feel, and they're focused on being true to themselves. Like I said, they're kind of like the other kid in the family. Like, well, I can't do everything my older brother can do, but maybe I'm an artist or maybe I'm creative or maybe I'm. And, you know, the underlying sin for fours is the sin of envy, because they sort of. They sort of look at the world like they. They don't have. They've been given a hand that you can't win with, and they somehow have to stay in the game. Even though the cards are stacked against them, and even though they're misunderstood and minimized and diminished by others, they gotta be true to themselves. Also called the dramatist or the dramatic one. They have a flair for the dramatic, you might say. A lot of creatives, artists or fours march into the beat of their own drum, doing things their own way. Okay, Type five is called the observer or the Investigator. And these are very cerebral people, you know, trying to understand things and make sure that they stay insulated and protected from the world with strong boundaries. But they, they, they very much want to know how things work and remain logical and unaffected and detached sometimes from life and from others. Think the, the stuffy old professor, you know, that knows everything about ancient Rome but, you know, doesn't realize he has spaghetti sauce on his tie. You know, a little absent minded sometimes. So this is kind of like when, when you think about the kids going into the world and they're going out into school, I always think of like the elementary kid going into this big, giant, overwhelming school. And, you know, you could feel pretty small there. And so just there's so much to discover and such a big world to understand, and you could feel kind of small in that world. And so the Investigator, the Observer, their sin is greed or avarice. Because I don't want to share my focus of attention with you. I don't really care about you think, and I'm not trying to impress you, so why would I need a relationship with you? And so they could be a little stingy with their affection, stingy with their emotions, stingy with their kind words. And just they kind of might operate like, why would you be mad at me? I literally have never spoken to you. Okay? Sixes are called the Loyalists or the Loyal Skeptic. There's actually a lot of names for Sixes, Some of them I've come up with, but the Trooper, the Guardian, the Babysitter, the Concerned Citizen, the Investigative Reporter. Sixes are, you know, they, they're kind of like the herd. They want to feel safe and secure in the world. They often don't feel safe. And so they look to others for support, guidance and assurance. And, you know, they often provide that. They're very loyal people, but they're questioners. Do you really know what you're talking about? Do you really mean what you're saying? How do I know I can trust you? Does this make sense? Okay. I'm not crazy, right? Sixes, they sometimes can learn and amass a great amount of information, but then they kind of have this obligation to doubt. I'm not sure that I and I6 wing. I'm a 7 wing 6. So I can feel a lot of this underlying anxiety. The sin of the six is fear, and it is a fear of anything that could happen, but it's primarily a fear of having no guidance, support, or assurance. Kind of like being alone out there in the world with no team around me can be a frightening thing, a frightening thought. Type 7, myself and Amber's type, we're called enthusiasts or the adventurer. We love to be excited about things, whether it's the enneagram or our YouTube channels or, you know, anything. We. If we don't have something to be excited about, we start to feel a little anxious, a little panicky. It's hard for us to sit still. We would be the impulsive kids, the Robin Williams, the Jack Blacks, the Jimmy Fallons. We like to entertain, and we have sort of a fear of, like, being trapped or stuck or no options or pain and suffering. At the end of the day, we just want to be happy, and we just want you to be happy. And we feel like that's a choice that you should make to want to move toward happiness. Why wouldn't you move toward stuff that makes you happy, but our underlying sin or passion. Some people don't like the word.

Something happened with your mic, I think. Can you hear me? Okay, we. Oh, you muted. You muted yourself on accident. Here, let me see if I can do it for unmute. Can't unmute guests. Their mic isn't connected. I'm getting a thing that's saying your mic came disconnected. Okay, still can't hear you. We'll give. We'll give Dr. Lehue a second to figure out the microphone issue, but. And I'll just take over for just a second where he's at, because he's talking about sevens, and I know about sevens because I'm a seven, and sevens are, like, to kind of keep themselves distracted and busy, and when things get uncomfortable, they just want to think about something. Let's see.

Are we back now?

Oh, you're back. You're back.

Yay. Okay, let me turn my headphones.

Okay.

I don't know what I did. Yeah, I was probably talking too much, and I clicked something off.

We got you. You're back. I'll let you take the sevens back. I was just saying how sevens can be very distracted. We. We distract ourselves from uncomfortable thoughts and feelings. Yeah, whatever's new. Novel. Exciting, interesting. I'll just think about that.

Yeah. Yeah, it can be hard to do tedious, boring stuff. You know, we're super motivated, and then we're not motivated so much anymore, and we kind of move on. Yeah. So sevens, the underlying sin or passion is gluttony. And it's we, you know. But I'm thin. How am I glutton? Well, more is always better. It's not sometimes knowing when enough is enough. Like, if I have, you know, a couple of guitars that I'm really interested in, the one I don't have, and I want to learn about it, I want to go get it, and then we end up amassing. Like Ariel, you know, she amassed all this stuff in her cave, but then she really just wasn't happy where she was. She wanted to be somewhere else. That's very seven. Like trying to be a kid for as long as we can. All right, and then type 8 is, you know, the strong challenger, the. The assertive one or the asserter. And this is sort of like, you know, that young adult. Imagine we've come all the way around the circle here, and we're kind of got this 18 or 19 year old that I'm gonna go out into the world and start my own family, and I don't want you to tell me what to do. I'm an adult now. I don't have to listen to you. Something needs to be done about this, and I'm probably the one that has to do it. I don't care what you do on your side of the street. Just keep your garbage out of my yard.

And so you're not the boss of me.

Yeah, you're not the boss of me. Right. So eights, they tend to be, like, powerful, dominant people who just have a right to go out and into the world and do what they do, and they don't. They're gonna sit around and think about, am I okay to do this? Do I need to talk to a committee or something? You know, their sin is lust. And lust, you know, it could mean what you think it means, but often it just kind of means other people. And their stuff exists for my use and purposes, and if they didn't defend it, that's on them. They should have stuck up for themselves. I don't know what to tell them. It's this loyalty to yourself and just kind of expecting that everybody's like that. Isn't everybody loyal to themselves? And I have a right. If I'm Cold to get up and turn the thermostat. What do you want me to do? What am I supposed to do? It's cold inside. I got to turn up the heat. You want me to just sit here and freeze? So it's kind of got, you know, you sit up with a little bit of a New York accent when you push. Don't push on me. All right, so the assertive challenger. And then often, like CEOs, that. That type. And then last one, type nine, the peacemaker. So this is the gentle, often a gentle person, the Mr. Rogers, you know, that. That doesn't want conflict, that wants everybody to be heard, and everybody else is very special, and everybody should be a part of this, and we should all be understood. And they tend to see everybody's perspectives except their own. Sometimes their sin is sloth, and sometimes they. Sometimes it could be laziness, but it's not always laziness. It could just be like, I don't know what I want. Whatever you think is fine. I don't want to be a problem, and I'm sorry, I'll work overtime for you. I just want everybody to feel good and everybody to be okay. And I don't want people to be mad at me, and I don't really want to be a problem, and I don't really want to have to deal with problems. I just want everybody to feel loved, valued, and like they're a part of the team, because I know what it's like to not feel like I'm heard. And so nines, you know, they. They just kind of bring people together, like a band leader. They get us all playing together to have harmony. They're kind of driven for harmony, comfort, and peace and those things. So that's the idea. There's nine basic types. And, you know, you'll have your dominant type. Like, I'm a seven, but I have a very strong wing. Six. I actually have both wings. You have both wings, but one of them will tend to be a little more dominant.

And so what does the word wing mean? Because I think some people might be like, what are you. What's he talking about?

What's the wing? Yeah, the wing is the numbers next to your type. So if you're a two, if you're a giver, helper, and that resonates with you, you'll have a one wing where you like to do things the right way and you follow the rules and guidelines and responsibility. But you also have this three wing, which is, like, you know, achieving, accomplishing, setting goals for Yourself pushing yourself to improve yourself. One of these wings will tend to be dominant. And so if you are a seven, you're either going to probably see yourself as a seven wing six, a lot of that six stuff, or seven wing eight. Like you, you're an adventurer and enthusiast, but you're more challenging, more more assertive, or you're more compliant, like a six and more questioning. And so the wing refers to the type next to you that you. You also resonate strongly with.

Yeah, I call it like. Like I'm a seven with six type, six sprinkles on top or something like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And for those of you that want to visualize, how do you know what's next to you is think about a clock. But imagine the clock doesn't have 12 numbers, it just has nine and the nine's at the top. So it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. And you can think about what numbers beside you. So if you're a 9, your numbers would be 1 and 8. So hopefully that helps everybody to figure out. If you know what your type is, put it in the comments, put it in the chat and put an explanation mark via. If you're thinking I might be this type, put that in the comments and put a question mark by it so we'll kind of know where our audience is.

Yeah. What's cool about this is once you know what your type is, you know the symbol of the Enneagram, if you, like, do a Google search and you look up the symbol, it's just kind of this like circle star thing, but it's not really a star. And sometimes that makes people feel nervous. Like, what is this? Is this some kind of like religion or something? It's really not. It's just a personality profile. The lines talk are showing you how numbers, like, connect to each other. And that's kind of the next cool thing about the Enneagram is it shows you that under stress, your type could look a little bit like this other type. And then in health, your type could look a little bit like this other type. And so you kind of move around you. You are a specific typ already, whether you realize it or not. But you do kind of look like the other types in some ways in health and in stress. And it helps you kind of evaluate yourself. Like, I thought I was doing really good, but now that I see what I go to in stress, wow. I live there. I live in that stress point all the time.

Enneagram goes pretty deep. It's like matrix level. Once you get in there, you learn your type. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Then your wings, then your stress type, then your growth type, then your levels of development. I mean, you can kind of go as far into it as you want to go into it.

Yeah.

Can I back you up, though, because you said something that I. This was my number one question to ask you on the list. Okay. The religion thing, because sometimes, occasionally, if I don't talk about Enneagram a lot on the channel because not everyone's familiar with it. But in our practice, like when I do our coaching, we type people so we can help them communicate with their loved ones, figure out themselves, that kind of thing. But some people feel like it's somehow not compatible with religion. And when I talk about it, sometimes I'll get comments and I feel like maybe you can help us understand how all that fits.

Yeah, and my background is in local church work. I've done that for 30 years. I mean, if you look at my education, it's, you know, Liberty University, Grace College and Seminary, and that's what my training is in. And I still work, you know, part time as a pastor in the local church. So I get that question sometimes too. The Enneagram is used by a lot of people. So some people with some of the books, you know, on the shelf are very Christian in how they're written and the authors, and some are not at all. They mentioned religion zero and then others are almost a little metaphysical, like they're almost kind of New Agey sounding. And I think it's used by people from all different backgrounds, religious, non religious. And people that use it find value in it, whether they see the spiritual overtones or not. It's definitely a spiritual tool. Let's say that, because when I say spiritual, I don't mean any religion in particular. It's spiritual in that it uncovers things beneath the surface. And as soon as we get beneath the surface, where are we? We're talking about spiritual stuff. I mean, every one of these is rooted in the dominant sin. And when you think of sin, you're thinking probably in the world of religion. And so I, of course, I look at it through a very Christian perspective. And that's because that's my background. I can't help but see it through that. And it's interesting that everything in the Enneagram devolves into threes, which is very Christian, you know, the Trinity. But essentially I see it as a tool that shows us what life is like outside the Garden of Eden. We don't live in the Garden of Eden and everything's broken. And our questions of worth and value in a scary world. And so it's three different strategies for each of these three problems. But like I said, people from all kinds of religious backgrounds use it and find value in it. And I think it's good for us to question things. You know, it's very six, like for us to question things and say, you know, where did this come from? And is this okay to use this? And it's kind of like when people walk into a church, they see a Christmas tree and they're like, is that okay for us to put Christmas trees in churches? Those have pagan origins. You know, you're like, well, yeah. You know, sometimes things can, can be challenging to us. But I would, this is my encouragement is as you start to lean into this, notice how it moves you. Does it move you away from a savior, away from God? You know, the idea that you're totally enlightened and you don't need any help or does it move you in a different direction? Like, wow, I've got problems and I need help and Lord Jesus, please help me. I think what people will find is that direction it moves you to is not one of pride and strength and independence, but one of vulnerability and wounds.

And humility.

Yeah, and humility. And like, you know, oh, we all are kind of broken. We're all kind of broken in different ways. And, and you know, everybody that you live around, everybody you work with are broken people. And this, the Enneagram, I think shows you what that brokenness is.

Absolutely. I like to think of it as almost like your primary defense mechanism. Basically your type is. Basically what's your. We all have defense mechanisms, right? You know, how we cope with stress and deal with the world and that sort and not deal with the world and things like that. And your type is basically your number one defense mechanism. What's your go to way of dealing with that? Right. But there's nothing, there's nothing anti religious or inherently no devil worship or nothing like that. Right. Okay. I just want to be clear, everybody. Okay? People think that, but I'll usually get a comment or two like that.

Well, I would point, I would point people to another website. Tyler Zach at the Gospel for Enneagram. He's done a lot of work on this. He's also a pastor too that, you know, uses the Enneagram. And, and there's a video clip, I'll just say this, there's a video clip out there on YouTube where somebody who was a teacher of the Enneagram, made a careless statement, and it blew up. And people have overvalued what that one teacher said. And so that's where people get questioning. And I would say, go out there and evaluate it. Start with the gospel for Enneagram. Because Tyler's done a great job of helping us understand the origin of the Enneagram and. And that it is, I think, very strongly Christian, but could be used by anybody. Regardless of your religious views, it's definitely not going to move you toward the devil at all. If it does, you're using it wrong.

Honestly, a more valid complaint might be the opposite of that. Like, if you're. If you're gonna. If you're gonna kind of lean one way I would say it, some people might say, well, that's. That's too religious for me, versus the opposite. You know, that's what I would think.

Right.

Is it okay if I ask you some questions just related to, like, addiction, recovery, coaching, therapy, stuff like that? Okay, yes. Because that's what I want us to walk away from is how do we apply this to recovery? Whether it's like addiction recovery, family recovery, what, whatever that. Wherever that is that you're coming from.

What.

Are there certain types that are more likely to struggle with addiction than others?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And you can't discount, I'm sure on your channel, you talk a lot about this, too, but you can't discount trauma, because trauma that we go through is definitely going to affect us in different ways. And, you know, and overall, like health and wellness and holistic health and all that, all of that's going to play into this. And, you know, how you were treated by people and your healthy relationships or unhealthy finances, all those things are definitely going to factor into this. But, yes, some types are a little more prone to addictions. I hate to say it, but type 7, your type and mine are probably right there.

It is excessiveness, and just we want.

To escape and so, you know, escape the boredom or the pain or the suffering. And, you know, I mean, I think Robin Williams is a type 7. And, you know, when you. When you look at a character like that, is he a happy person? You know, I mean, the whole personality is wired to be happy and to have joy. And we bring that. When we're doing well, we bring that happiness. But when we're not doing so well, you know, we might. We might give up a lot to try to chase a sense of happiness or to escape pain and suffering. And, you know, so Sevens, we Could get bored easily. Or if we felt like we were trapped or stuck in pain, we might reach out to some substance to try to numb that suffering or that pain or just. We want to experiment. So, yeah, I would say sevens are probably. Probably going to be the most addicted type.

Yeah, I mean, the thing of it is, is we're just prone to excessiveness in every way. Like, you guys know the term addictive personality? They should just call that seven. Yeah, right. It's just I want to do it all on extra of everything, that kind of thing. So just to be clear, any type can be addicted. I have worked with every single type, enneagram type who's had an addiction. But what's interesting is there's a different flair or like, you know, in addiction recovery, we talk about what's the underlying reason. Right. What's the. What's the driver of this addictive behavior? And that is different depending on a lot of factors, like Dr. Lahue said, like trauma, but also very different based on your personality type. Like. Like what would maybe be. Tell us about maybe a type one that has addiction.

What would we.

What would we want to know about that?

Yeah. Well, up in the top group, 8, 9 and 1, the anger types and. Or the gut types, as they're called, they're basically dealing with that problem. Like, why is everything broken? Like, why do relationships break down? Why do people do stupid things? Why do you. Why do you get sick? Okay, so I could see, you know, those types perhaps struggling with addictions because maybe like, wanting to suppress anger or wanting to suppress frustration or feeling a sense of guilt or shame that they weren't able to do things perfectly, or maybe just wanting to numb out because we're so OCD about getting things done at work. And then like, you know, to the point that I collapse or the point that I are just feeling disconnected. So I could see like eights, nines, and ones, for example, those gut types or those anger types maybe dealing with the frustrations of life, you know, and, you know, you mentioned. You mentioned our defense mechanisms. You know, every type has its own specific defense mechanism. And like justification or rationalization or narcotization. Literally one of them, type 9, the defense mechanism is called narcotization.

I've never heard of that, doctor. I don't even know what that means exactly.

Yeah, well, you hear the word narc in there, right? Like narcotizing. It's like numbing yourself out. When I don't know what to do or I feel overwhelmed, then I might numb myself out. With entertainment. Or, you know, I might numb myself out with a hobby and keep myself occupied because I don't know how to face this problem in front of me. Or narcotizing with drugs and alcohol, I mean, or, you know, anything that just kind of like, allows me to sort of check out, zone out, and not deal with the problems in life that really might be facing me. I think heart types, like twos, threes and fours. The giver, the achiever, the individualist. They might use addictions to of fill an emotional void. Like, if they're feeling unloved or uncared for or not valued, they don't get the admiration or the validation that they need in a relationship or to maintain their image. Like, think about being hopped up on something so that you can achieve all of those goals and stay ahead of the curb. Or maybe numbing feelings of inadequacy or that shame, that sense of worth and shame. The five, six and sevens, the head types, you know, I could see perhaps dealing with anxiety. You know, it's. It's a scary world. There's a lot of stuff that has to happen and what are we gonna do? And, you know, just something to sort of like calm that and to try to. To help us get out of that panic state or, you know.

Oh, we lost you again. It doesn't say you're muted, but we lost you. I don't know what happened. Right now it's saying you're muted again. There we go. Okay. That's okay. So, doctor, he was saying about. You were saying about nine, right? We were kind of. Yeah, there.

Yeah, the fear. The. The fear types, right? They might. They might. They might use something to calm. The overthinking, you know, and healthy stuff. Yeah, yeah, the overthinking, the spiraling, the anxious thoughts, the, you know, to help us detach maybe a little bit. You know, there's healthy things, right, like ashwagandha and that kind of stuff that might help us calm down. But then there's unhealthy things that could be abused that could calm the anxiety but create more problems? Actually, they never fix any problems. Right. They always create more problems.

Right, exactly. Are there certain types that are.

More.

Like that, More likely to stand denial longer or have a harder time acknowledging an addiction? You know, like denial. Certain types struggle with that more.

Yes. Type 8, the. The challenger, the strong, tough New York guy. Right. The defense mechanism is denial. That's. The whole defense mechanism was like, that's never going to happen to me. That's not going to happen. To me, you know, they could watch a crime show where the lady you know is going down the alley and then muggers jump out and get them. And a six would think, oh my gosh, that could happen to me. I need to carry pepper spray. Right. But the eight would see that be like, that's never going to happen to me. Not going to happen to me. And so eights, for example, you know, a lot of types. But I would say eights and fives, they might have a hard time because they're so independent, they're so self reliant. And whatever's going on here, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. I'll look it up, I'll do some research. I'm not a joiner that's going to join some group. I don't need that in my life.

I'm independent. I got this.

I'm strong. And I can't see myself as weak and dependent. Or here's the key word for eight, vulnerable. I can't see myself as vulnerable. And the reality is then what a.

Three kind of be in that category about not liking the vulnerable or admitting a weakness or something like that.

Yeah, well, threes could get caught up in like that image management. And, and how is this going to reflect on my image? What will people think of me? And eights are less likely.

They might know it, but they might hide it longer.

So you're saying the sin is deceitful.

Okay, so 8 might like literally be for real, in denial. Like they really don't see it happening. And a three might see it happening, but they're never gonna. That might, that might go against their brand. Unless their brand is being like the party king or El Chapo. And then, and then it's different. Which could be. But I like that. So they're. They probably know it, but they're not going to admit it. That's a different kind of denial. Like I deny it to you versus I deny it to myself. Interesting.

Yeah. Okay. I can see that as being very possible. Yeah. I always say eights are the lions and threes are the guys that wear shirts that say, I'm a lion. I told you it's offensive.

Are there certain types that are more likely or less likely to get help? Whether have an addiction or any problem?

Yeah. You know, twos, for example, they are the helpers. So where do they go when they need help? You know, they're here to help everybody else. They're here to take care of people. And you know, people wired like that the sin of pride. It can be very hard for you to see yourself as a person with needs as well, that it's okay for me to need help. I'm not being selfish. If I need help, you know, if I'm working on myself, that could feel selfish to a type 2, to the giver helper. So I think there, yeah, there's. There's some types, maybe because they're very self reliant or because they feel a sense of shame of needing help from others, that there may be many reasons why people would refuse the help.

Okay. Yeah, I like that you brought up type 2. I was trying to think about experiences I've had with type twos. Usually if I have a type 2 that's struggling with an addiction, it's they, they have this feeling of they give, give, give, give, give.

Yes.

And then it's like, this is my one thing. Y' all back up. I mean, honestly, that's what they're thinking inside. Like, you know what? I did all this for everybody. It's my glass of wine. Y' all better leave me alone. Yeah, that's sort of.

Can I tell you. Can I tell you the word. Can I tell you the word for that?

Yes. Let's have it.

Resentment. That's the one.

No, that's the word. I was thinking that's it. Resentment. Because they over give. Right? That's. That's spot on.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's the. After all I've done for you.

Right. And they're really mad when other people are like wanting to take their one thing. You know, this is my one thing for me. Right. I get upset about that. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, they, they have. What I call. A lot of us have this nice person disorder. And because we're nice and we're kind and we take care of people and we're thoughtful, then you can see where the anger that we have might be a little more passive and leak out in different ways. And addictions may be one of the ways that that leaks out.

Right, Absolutely. Okay.

Yeah.

Are there certain types that would be more likely or less likely to really take to, like things like Alcoholics Anonymous or self help groups or like community joiners? Are there certain types more likely and less likely to do that?

Yeah. I can see fours resisting or joining. I could see the individualist because, for example, fours, the speaking style. Every type has its own speaking style. Sevens are storytellers. Okay. But fours, the speaking style is lamenting. And I can see, you know, you have an audience of people who are going to listen to you talk about how life is unfair for you and how misunderstood you are. And. And I can see them maybe being drawn to that. I could see nines going to that. Because, look, honey, I'm working on myself because I go to the group. Not really working on themselves, right. But going to the group can give the visual to everybody that I really am invested in this. I'm not really invested in this.

They have a sort of a stubbornness, seem easier. Right. Like I always say, nuns will go to therapy if you're pushing them. They'll go to the group. But I actually found this. I don't know what the research says, and I don't know what Dr. Lee says. We're about to find out. But I think nines are the hardest in recovery because they come. They. They're easy to talk to. They're like, yeah, you're so right, Amber. Oh, my. You. You're right. I needed that. But then they don't move. They don't action. So I always say, yeah, now they're great to talk to in therapy, but hard to get to pick us out of the fence. And with addiction recovery, you got to kind of pick us out of the fence. Like, you gotta be over here. Over here.

Like, yeah, no, you're dead on. I would say a lot of nines are wired like therapists themselves. And so think of it like being able. Like a palm tree. They can move with people, and they can agree with people, and they can back up with people, but the roots never really moved, right?

So if they're with me, they might be like, yeah, I totally agree with you. And then they could leave, maybe go be at the bar with their drinking bed, and they're like, oh, yeah, I totally agree with you. And then the next person. The next person. So it's. It may feel like. Like, let's say you're trying. You have a loved one who's a nine. You're trying to help them. It may feel like they're being compliant or going along or getting it when actually they're not. Whereas like. Like, let's say an 8, for example. It feels like they give you a really hard time up front, but once they buy in, then once they're locked on and once they say they're doing it, they're doing it. That's it.

Yeah.

So nines are easy up front, harder in the long run. I think eights are hard up front, but stick. You know, they have will. Like, they are willful. And they will stick either direct, Right?

Yeah. You go to a nine when you want to be understood. You go to an 8 when you need your butt kicked or protection. Yeah. I mean, when you. When you're ready to quit making excuses. When you're ready to really change, you would go to an eight because they. They're ready to help you if you really want to change. But if you want to talk about this and you want to just, you know, think about it and you want to tell me all your limitations, here's the way an eight would say it. If you want to fight for your limitations, I'll just let you keep those. When you're ready to actually change, then I'm here to help you change.

Right.

And many of us, we like our limitations. It justifies. It justifies. And then we're seen as victims. And I think Sixes would be others that might really join a group because they long for that community. They long for. They know it's a scary world. So what do you want? You want. You want a community around you to support you, to give you help, to give you guidance, and to feel like you're a part of a team. So I can see where sixes might naturally join that group for that sense of, like, we're in this together. I'm not alone. I've got help.

Right. They long for community. But what about, like, a five?

Yeah, the five might be the Five or the Nines probably leading the group, you know, the group discussion. Fives are typically not joiners. They. And they're like nines. They're a withdrawn type. So, you know, I. I don't see myself as needing to be a part of this and, you know, and very boundary oriented.

Very private. Very private.

Yeah. And you're trying to get through this boundary. I don't want to need you. I don't.

They don't like to talk about feelings so much. Fives, I mean, a lot of times I don't recognize their feelings. And so I like to say when I see a 5 in, like, an individual. Individual coaching or something, it's like at least three or four weeks of them watching me, watching them, watching me, watching them. You know, it's like they're sizing me. They're not gonna. They're not gonna give much at all till they, you know, they're. They're figuring me out.

More than just. Just sitting there in a conversation with you is a stressor.

Yeah. Because I'm, like, looking at you, like, hardcore. There's no one else even, like, all the tension.

Right, right. And so if you say, how are things going today? How do you. How is things going at work? It's fine.

Mm.

And just being okay with that awkward silence. Like, I'm not okay with that. 7 Wing, 6. I don't like the awkward. I want to fill that space with something. And five's now. Yeah.

Yeah. I have about a million more questions. We could do a whole channel just on Enneagram and recovery. I mean, I'm. But since we are live, I feel like we should let some of our, like, viewers. You guys showed up with us. We want to hear what you have to say and what questions you have. So we're gonna. Bria is going to be selecting some questions, comments, concerns. Put them up on the screen while she does. I will tell you, I've linked Dr. Lahue's channel in the description along with other resources. He's got great, great videos where he talks about each type. I was watching a video of yours yesterday. We were talking about the attractiveness of each type, and you were saying, like, Indiana Jones and how, like, in Indiana Jones and, like, the girls are just swimming over him and he's just standing up there, like, lecturing about, like, boring things or whatever. I love that. Right. What's attractive about each type? All these kinds of. And how to get along with each type. You have a whole series on that, which is super good.

Yeah, that's. And that's kind of the direction of my operating system is you want to. It's very Tony Robbins ish. Like, don't you want to live the best life possible? Don't you want to get along with people? Don't you want to have happiness? And it's showing my hand, my value. Yeah. Don't you want to live your best life and understanding what's going on in the mind of your partner or your spouse or your kids, understanding their world. Let me just do one thing. Okay. For example, if you have a four in your life, like, you have a kid that's a four or a husband that's a four, they could be very volatile. They're called the dramatist, the individualist. Right. So they could be very dramatic. They often get a message in life that. That, you know, that they're misunderstood or that they're. They're minimized and diminished in some way. Just this one thing. If you have a four in your life, when they come home and tell you about some negative interaction or how they were mistreated or misunderstood or how something didn't go right for Them your tendency as a loving parent might be, well, tell me what happened, and I'll show you what you did wrong. You know, let me just. Let me correct this for you. But often what fours want is they don't. They don't want you to correct their mistake. They want you to say to them something like this, like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have to go through that. I'm really sorry that they said that to you. And if you just shift in that. Remember, there are worth and value types, so they're often seeking validation. And when you give them just a little bit of validation and admiration, appreciation, you might see the nature of your relationship change, because for once, they now feel more understood and more valued and not criticized. My problems are so simple. You can just fix them with your dad wisdom. You know, that's. Yeah, they don't.

They don't necessarily want to be cheered up or, you know, they definitely don't want to be told it's not that bad. You know, that kind of thing.

You have parents that love you. You should focus on the positive. That's the kind of stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right, right, right. So those kinds of nuances could really help us get along better.

Bri, will you pop us some questions up there? Oh, and we. One question from our counselor is, where are you from? She had a guess, and so we're just gonna find out, like where.

Yeah. Daytona Beach, Florida.

Oh, Kim.

Yeah.

You were big time wrong. She says her five spidey senses could. Could spidey sense you out. And we're gonna have to sell her. She's gonna have to turn up the volume on her five. Okay, Wendy, Wendy's got a question. Can you be a multiple?

No. No. Well, yes and no. No. You are one type primarily. Okay. But there's. There's some. There's some ideas that go around, like tri types. You might investigate that a little bit, but basically it's like your dominant type from each of the three different groups. For example, my tri type, My type is 7 Wing 6. My tri type is 7 1, 2. So I'm very 70. Right. That's my first. But I'm also very responsible and want to do the right thing, like a one, and then I'm a lot like a two, and that I want to give and help and encourage and all that. And so in some ways, you might see several different aspects. If you people always ask, what type? What test should you take? Well, Tests can be valuable. The problem is sometimes we answer on tests a little differently than, you know, if I was to take a test.

Like, well, this is the right answer, or this is what it should be. Right.

Right.

And sometimes that's not very insightful. But even our own selves, so there's that.

You know, my wife would look over my shoulder and say, no, you are not. You can't do that. But truity is a very used test. The Ready R H E T I from the Enneagram Institute is very popular. I like truity because I like the graph it gives you at the end, you know, where you can see how you score in all the types. And that's a good way to figure it out. If you're still stuck, chances are you might be a 9 or maybe a 6. Because they often have the. The most trouble figuring out their types for whatever reasons. But, you know, talking to somebody like me, we can usually figure this out, you know, sometimes. Sometimes before. Sometimes as the person begins talking, I'll kind of know, like, oh, yeah, I can tell this person just the way they talk. It's. It gets crazy after a while. But test can be very, very good. But no, you're. You're one type, primarily.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, good question. You. Your. Your base is one type, but you have flavors of other things depending on, like, you. Are you in stress? Are you in.

So, yes.

Yeah.

And there's another aspect called your subtypes. And so.

See how complicated this gets everybody?

Yeah. Your subtype, Matrixy. Right?

It goes to.

Yeah.

All right. We have another question. It says I'm going to have to leave it at 1:30, so I may not hear the answer. I think it will be on the recording. Yes, it will. Question how does birth order affect Enneagram type and vice versa?

Yeah. Short answer is it doesn't. Birth order is interesting, and it does. It is amazingly accurate. Sometimes it's, you know, one of those things that you're just like, wow. But as far as your Enneagram type, you know, generally what you're gonna find from the writers on the Enneagram is nobody knows are you born this way or do your parents make you into this? You know, it's generally agreed that, you know, you're. You're probably born this way. There's no way I can go back into my infancy and tell when I became a seven. But having five kids of our own and raising five kids and now five grandkids, it was obvious from the start that these kids are wired in their own Unique way. There's a lot of similarities, but they're definitely wired.

They have a temperament. Right?

They have a temperament.

Right, right.

And so I don't want to discount birth order because I think it does. It is interestingly accurate at times, but there's no guarantee that if you have your first child is going to be a one, then your second one is definitely going to be, you know, a six. Or, you know, right now you just. You don't know.

Yeah, Earlier. Earlier you mentioned, like, you're the firstborn, but. But what we're talking about is more the stereotype of the first one versus yes.

Yeah, right, right, right. Exactly. Yeah.

All right. In recovery, you discussed the need to go back before the addiction to figure out the personality type. However, I feel that they become different people over time. How do we figure them out? Okay, so if. If you have an addicted person in your life, they're not themselves. So how do you figure out what personality? And I have our time with this too, because when I first meet people in their active, I think they're one thing. Once they're clean and sober, I'm like, dude, I had that all wrong. You're this. You're really this one. Wow, that's, you know, like. So this is a great question. You ask it, Lydia.

Yeah. And, you know, there's a good chance you won't get to the underlying motivation if you don't have the type. Correct? Right. If I think you're a one and your underlying motivation is that you don't want to be bad, corrupt, or wrong, and you're actually a six, and your underlying motivation is a fear of blame or a fear of how people might turn against you then. And my approach with working with you could be very different depending on your personality type. So obviously there's probably some general things that would help anybody in any problem, but if I knew your personality type, it would help me further get over the radar, specifically. And I see this in coaching, for example. Okay, here's a classic example. So I have an appointment with a nine, and they start talking to me. And they don't sound like a nine at all. They sound like a six. The line from nine under stress is the six. So this nine, who would be generally a peaceful, easygoing person, is wired up and anxious and trying to comply with everybody. And I don't know what I should do. And for 25 minutes, they talk without taking a breath. And I'm just sitting here thinking the whole time. 9. Under stress, you could think that this person's a 6 because of the way they're interacting. But I know that they're actually a nine. And sometimes you just have to remind people, like, come back to your nine self. Come back to yourself. You know, you're under stress right now, and that's fine. It's understandable. But, yeah, the levels of health that people might be on, you know, the more you learn about the Enneagram, the more you work with it, the more you'll be able to see that this person is under stress. Like a seven could look like a one. Frustrated, irritated, cranky, you know, disappointed. But I'm not a one. I'm just kind of in the outhouse right now and need a little bit of space and understanding.

Right. Yeah. Okay. All right. Dawn says, can someone start off as one number, like a number four, and then later become another number, like a number eight, for example? How likely are they to change? What about from trauma?

Yeah. No. Whatever type you were born as, or, you know, you've always been all your life, and you can't change it. You can't. Like, well, I want to be a three instead, or I want to be a fun seven or a nice two. You don't change your type, and it doesn't change over time. But like I said, as you move through life, you might see some different aspects of how you deal with these underlying motivations. Very, you know, sometimes healthier in life and sometimes less healthy. And you, like I said, you will see yourself maybe moving around some of these types, but you're not changing your. Your core type.

Right. The core fear. The core motivating factor is the same. You may behave differently, but the why is usually it's the same. Yeah.

Yes.

All right. I have my own selfish personal question.

Sure.

Have you on here. Ready?

Okay.

So I thought I was a three forever. Long, long time. And then I was reading something about Enneagram in your work life or leadership, some book, I can't remember. And they talked about the social seven and I. And then the light bulbs went off. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so seven. Like, solidly felt it, but no one believes me. It works. They. They're like. They go along, whatever, but they secretly roll their eyes. They don't think I'm seven. Can you talk about counter type?

Yeah, because that's what the social type. So there's three subtypes for every type. Again, like. Like she said, there's layers. Right. And you don't have to learn all this at once. Don't feel overwhelmed.

I know. Really that's probably overwhelming question. But this is my own personal question.

Yeah. But long story short is of the three types of each type, so there's three different ones, three different twos. Three different threes. One of these is going to be what's called a counter type. And often you'll hear about the counter phobic six or the counter six. This is a six. You know, the sin is fear, but they, they lean into the fear like a daredevil. Like, I'm not going to let you seem aggressive.

They seem kind of 8ish. Right.

They look like an 8. Right, right. But they're, they're leaning toward the fear. Fear is still controlling their lives.

Right.

But, but they, they sort of are backwards approaching it. Like I'm going toward it like Billy the Kid. I'm not gonna be scared of this. You know, knock that chip off my shoulders. Like why are you starting fights? You know, so every, every type there's a counter type. And sometimes it actually seems to like be a great advantage, like when you can calm down the eight a little bit or calm down the seven a little bit, you know, but then other types is just interesting. Like a two that doesn't want to help. What's that? You know? Or one that doesn't want to be good. What's that? And so it is a little bit interesting how these flavor a type and make you look very different because you might.

The counter type is like you have this core drive but you fight against it.

Yeah.

But you're at war with your driving you. Because you're fighting it all the time. Right? Yeah.

Yes. You're a little bit in conflict with yourself. This is the eight that knows very clearly what they're not saying out loud because they don't want to disrupt their group. Right. This is a seven who's very much still a seven, but limiting themselves and saying, I'm not going to try every item on the menu. I'm not going to buy everything that I want. I'm going to tell myself no and sacrifice my own personal desires for the good of my group. Yeah.

Right.

And so, yeah.

So now that we've thoroughly confused everyone on the planet, everyone is saying, where do you, how do you find your type? Where do you get it? Truity. I've put the link to truity down there. That's a multiple choice test you can take. Like Dr. Lahue said, if you take it, I want you to be completely honest yourself. I don't want you to judge any answer or think anything is better than Just. Just tell it like it really is. You know, look deep inside, and that'll give you a better, more accurate result. And there are a bazillion websites. I like enneagraminstitute.com. do you have a website you would recommend?

Yeah. No, that one's great. Yeah.

Okay.

That one's great. Yeah.

Right. There are books. What's a good starter book? Because there's a bazillion books. Some of them are super advanced. Some of them are starter. Love this one. Tell us about this one. Yes.

Yeah. The Enneagram Made Easy literally has cartoon pictures in it, right? So, you know, this is a great place to start. That just gives you very simple explanations of each type. This is where my family started. This is where we started. And when we. When we. When we looked at it, you know, it was very obvious to. To what? Five out of seven of us, we knew immediately when we looked at. At the description, but then the nine had a hard time because she kind of merged with mom, so she thought she was a two, you know, and so this is a great place to start. I've got a video on my YouTube channel called the Enneagram Made Easy, or something like that. Start here. Wait, that's the title of this book. The Enneagram. New to the Enneagram. Start here. And so it just has lots of pictures of celebrities, you know, that. That you can relate to. And so that's. That's a great overview. But, yeah, a book like this is a great place to start. The Enneagram Made Easy by Renee Baron and Elizabeth Weigel.

All right, perfect. Thank you everybody who showed up live. This is fun. I could go on and on and on, but I promised to let Dr. Lehue off the hook in an hour, so we're going to have to end it. And thank you to everyone who watched on the playback. And you guys go over and check out his channel. I've seen lots of Enneagram channels, and Dr. Lehue's is my favorite so far.

Gracious. Thank you.

The best one.

Appreciate it.

All right, thank you. Bye, everybody.