Why Would Someone Stay In Such A Desperate Situation? ( Dan's Story )

On my darkest days, I lived in a, in a home that was, that was filled with garbage. I had turned to, to dumpster diving as a means to support my habit, to support my family. And, and some people in my life were watching this happen, and they, somebody called Child Protective Services, and my son was apprehended. And when, when the two social workers and the two police officers came to my door, they came in and they were laughing and they were pointing, and they were acting as though this was some sort of coffee break. Yeah. And, and the last thing that I handed my son on his way out the door was his puppy, his little stuffy that he had his whole life. And to remember that day, I had this had puppy tattooed on my arm.

Wow.

He's watching over my son when I couldn't. And, and that set in motion wheels that, that brought me ultimately to where I am today, sitting here with you.

Okay, so that's a pretty wild moment in your life. And it sounds like, you know, you're, you're struggling, you're having a hard time. But is it like a knock on the door? Is it just like police officers, they just come in, like on a movie or something? How does that happen?

Well, no, no, it wasn't that dramatic. Looking back now, it would have been, you know, like, that would have been something. But no, I have friends that, that happened to. But no, they, they knocked on the door, and it was just like any other day. There was just a knock on the door. Right. And, and, and when we opened that door, our, our lives changed.

Wow.

Yeah.

For everybody who is joining us live and on the playback, welcome. We're glad you're here. This is Dan. Dan is from his podcast called Hard Knocks Talks, and he's agreed to come in here today and be our expert witness and share with you about his journey into addiction and out of it. And he's got quite a story to tell you. I think you're really going to get a lot out of it. So, Dan, there's got to be a lot of backstory coming into this day that you're telling me, you know, that the social services is knocking on your door. So what in the world led you to that place?

Well, I, we can go all the way back to the beginning, you know, like, I, I, I didn't necessarily grow up in, around a lot of active addiction or a lot of active alcoholism. It does run in my family. My father was already in recovery and, you know, maintaining it in, in productive ways when I came around. But I remember, like, years Before I, my first drink, I remember like, craving alcohol. Like, just craving. And maybe it wasn't alcohol that I was craving. Maybe it was escape that I was, that I was craving. And like, I was having feelings that I, that I didn't really know that I had. Until one day I got loaded and realized that, you know, I didn't feel the same. And my dad would get angry with me. He would be like. Because I was asking him questions like, what does beer taste like? What does vodka taste like? You know, like all of these questions and they were persistent, you know, I, I, and, and in knowing that now looking back, like, I, I definitely think that I was predisposed because like I said, I didn't grow up in an environment where this was like, normal or what some would consider normal.

But there was like a curiosity, there was something a wanting to experience or know.

Yes, there absolutely was. And when I, and when I finally got my hands on it, I, I got drunk with my little, my, my friend at the time. We were like 13 years old and in the basement of his house in the small town Saskatchewan, we got absolutely loaded. I think I drank like two, two beer or something and I was just, you know, blacked out. And I woke up the next day and, you know, the bed I was laying in Washington wet. Like, I, I wet the bed. My pants were across the room. I'm also soaking wet. You would, you would think that an experience like that would be like, this sucks. I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna have this experience. I don't want to tell my friends about this. I am embarrassed. But that wasn't the case. I, I remember being proud as though I had achieved some level of, you know, rite of passage and. Okay, yeah, well, by this time in my life, a lot of my friends had already started experimenting with alcohol. That was just sort of the culture of the community that I, that I grew up in, right? Like, it wasn't necessarily in my home, but when I would go to school, my friends would be talking about it. You know, you drive past the bar on Friday night or you walk past, you know, there's cars lined up.

Seems like the cool thing to do, right?

And you know what? Maybe it was, maybe it was for a bit, you know, but I went to school and I was bragging, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't in my mind at all that what I had done was wrong. And from that point on, it was all about Friday night. Like, my whole life became about making sure that I had what I needed Friday night.

So for you, very quickly, the, I call it the obsession. The obsession started. Right. It's like you had it once you, you. The obsession started before you even had it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which is wild. Right? So it's like right out the gate, you're hit the ground running, probably just 100 miles an hour.

Yeah. Yeah. And. And then, and then I moved from a small town to a, well, what we call in Saskatchewan, a big city.

Okay.

You know, at the, at the time, you know, like 200,000 people. It's bigger than that now. But as I, I couldn't get. Wait to get away from that town because like the, it just seemed like no matter what, click, I wanted to, like, I didn't fit in with any of the, any of the kids. I didn't fit in with the jocks. I didn't fit in with the kids that were partying. I didn't fit in. And, and you know, of course, looking back now, you realize that, you know, there were people that wanted to spend time with me, but though I didn't want to spend time with those, you know, because I, I don't really understand why, but when I moved to Saskatoon, I did manage to find a small group of friends that, that, you know, they would, we would smoke weed and we would play hacky sack and we would do what, you know, early 2000 kids or 90s kids would do. Listen to, listen to Silver Chair and I don't know, Bush X. I don't know if you guys have that in.

That part of the world, but I don't remember that. And I'm from the 90s and. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.

So.

Yeah, so if you're, if your dad was already in recovery and you're sort of going down this path at 100 miles an hour. What, what, what were your parents doing? How were they responding to that at the time?

Well, my, my mom already, like my mom and dad split when I was very young. I think I was like 11 or something when maybe I was 10 when they, when they split. And, and you know, my mom has been in the addictions field in our province here for as long as I've been alive. There's a picture, there's a treatment center here in Saskatchewan called Pine Lodge. And there's a picture on that wall in that treatment center of my mom sitting at her desk with a picture of me on that desk when I was like three years old.

Wow.

Yeah. So she's played a pretty significant part in the development of, of of addiction services in Saskatchewan. And her knowing what she did at the time, she, you know, she knew that you can't really force someone to step away from that unless there's some level of. Of knowing that this is problematic.

Yeah. But at the same time, she and your dad must have known.

Oh, they did. They knew.

How scary. You know, an addiction counselor, dude. I know it's down that road. Like, I know it's on that road. And so it's. It's so scary. I mean, it must have. They must have been terrified.

And. And I'm sure that they were. They. They didn't really express that to me. Like I said, my mom sort of. She knew what was happening, but she didn't really add to the anxiety and the depression and. Or whatever that was that I was feeling at the time. We talked a little bit about it. My dad also talked with me a little bit about it, but there was never any heavy duty punishment.

Okay.

That was because I think at the time, like, they both knew that this. This punishment would only likely drive me in further.

Yeah. So looking back, even as a. Even as a grown up now, you think that was the right decision?

I think so. It's such a. It's such muddy waters, you know, there's such a broad spectrum of needs that. That different people respond to. Looking back now, Yeah. I don't really think that there could have been a much better. Better path for them to take with me.

Okay, so when did your. When did the substances start causing problems for you?

Well, pretty much right out the gate, really. But I didn't know that. It took a number of years for me to know that. In fact, it was into my 20s and I was already using heavier substances that I started to. To realize that. That it. This is a problem. You know, I. I had graduated high school, I went to work. I became a welder.

Okay.

And I. I got my journeyman certificate. So I was. I was working in northern Saskatchewan and northern Alberta, and I could go up north where substances are rampant, you know, with a bunch of tradesmen working in seclusion, and. But I wouldn't use, you know, I. I would be away from that social environment that I had pretty much put myself in for, you know, my. My whole adult and adolescent life. As soon as I was away from that, I. And it wasn't that I didn't like, it wasn't that I had to try not to use. It wasn't like, okay, I'm gonna go up north. I'm not gonna use, like, it wasn't Like a thing in my mind, I would just go up north and not, not use. I would take my guitar up there with me and I would learn to play songs and I would, I would work out. I would eat well. Yeah, no, my whole life was different when I was working. You know, if I could just focus on me, I had no social obligations. I, I, and obligations that I would, now that I know, now that I put on myself that I had a certain way if, if I could just be me. And, and I didn't even realize that I was just being me. It's just, it's the strangest thing. I, I, I don't really know how to.

It just happened, huh?

Yeah, just happened.

Okay. Wow. Okay, so. So you were using substances off and on. You got, you know, you, you got trained as a welder. You would go up, you would take these breaks or periods where you wouldn't use anything at all. And then you would go back and it would start again. What would happen?

Yeah, I mean, I would, as soon as I got back into town, you know, by this time, I, like I said, I, I owned a house, I had a, you know, had a race car. I had all the things that a 26 year old tradesman could probably want, really. But as soon as I got back to the, to Saskatoon, to town where those, you know, my friends were, it was on. And like, and then, and that wasn't even a decision really either. It was like, okay, I'm back here. I can, I can give her now. It wasn't, it was just like, it was just like breathing.

Mm.

You know what I mean? Like, it was just like, this is what you do to get through the day.

It was just your normal. It's almost like habit routine. Like, almost like neural pathways just take over.

Yeah, yeah. Muscle memory.

Yeah, yeah. Muscle memory. There you go. That's the term. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It is kind of strange because I always think, you know, when I, I'm from a small town in Tennessee and when I go back home, it's almost like I turn into myself from then. I feel like I felt then immediately just being there. And it does feel like it just sort of pulls you back in to that place, the person you're, that you are when you're there.

Yeah. In fact, it was around this time that I started to realize that, like, I started to see the pattern. Okay. Like in my own behavior. And I, in 2008, after I'd been working a few years at different mine sites and stuff, there was a big layoff. I was working in Fort McMurray, Alberta. I don't know if any of your viewers are familiar or not. It's a big oil town here in Canada. Big oil town. Tons of trades up there, giant mine sites. And in 2008, there was a massive layoff. And I don't remember the details around it, why it happened, but when I was driving home from there, like, this was recently. Like, around this time, I had recently met a woman who. Who is now. Well, it's Donna. She. She is my. My life partner, my wife, mother of my children. But that's when we met.

Okay.

And our. Our most endearing quality in each other at that time was that we could use together. And. And, like, you know, she wouldn't get on my case because I was using too much. I wouldn't get on her case because we would all always use together all the time. Like, there was no, like, she's doing more than me or whatever.

Can we. Can I ask what you were using? Because people are gonna be wondering.

Because I'm like, oh, yeah, no, of course. It. Well, it was party drugs at first. I had already started using meth at that time. And in fact, for being honest, it was around that time that I introduced her to. To meth. So there's that, but that just escalated. The partying, right? Or the partying. And. And when I got laid off, I remember driving back from Fort McMurray in. In. In my truck and driving down the highway and just like, this is not. This is not good, you know, like, because I'd already come to realize, like, I could take a break when I went to work. Like, this was. This was when I could go to. It was like my. Say, my safe place was not my safe place anymore.

Okay.

So. Yeah, and that's when her and I, we. We pretty much jumped off a cliff together. Metaphorically.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay. So from there, the using just escalated for a while.

It did, yeah. And I was still productive for a while. When I came back to Saskatoon, well, there was a point in my life where I got. I. I thought I was going to be a. A cook. I thought I was going to be a meth cook.

A met. Wait, hold on.

Yeah, Like, I was.

I was like, yeah, yeah. And then. A meth cook.

Yeah, yeah. Not like the good kind of chef where.

No, I thought you meant like, I was going to be a cook. Okay.

So. So, yeah, I. I dove into that, and despite my very best efforts and coming back from Fort McMurray, and I was in good shape financially, I was Able to afford equipment and like, I did my best to break bad. Like I really did.

So you went into it thinking business, entrepreneur style.

This is my. Yeah, this is my life.

I'm about to be the king.

Yeah. Yeah. This, I'm going to sail off into the sunset and this is going to be amazing. Yeah.

Right here. Okay.

Y. Yeah, well, kinda. Yeah, you know, that's, that's what I thought. And.

Wow.

Despite my best, my best efforts and I wasn't able to, to succeed and, and thank God, looking back now, you know, like, you know, for a, for, for somebody like I, for a chemist, I make a really good welder.

There you go.

Yeah.

Okay.

So. But, and then after that didn't work out, I, I ended up starting a welding company and I went legit, you know, because like, I sucked at being a criminal and yeah, it wasn't fruitful for me and I, I was successful in that for a little while. You know, like, I, I, I didn't get super rich, but I ran it for like a year and a half. But in that time, like we were using heavily and yeah, there was, there was lots of times where I was up for days on end and then the phone would ring and I would have to go to a job site and it was terrible way to live. You know, like it, I, I came.

Home a day in the life because there's a lot of people watching who really want to understand that, you know, what is that like when you're, when you're stuck in the middle of it.

Yeah. And that's. I, I remember it was during that time where we discovered opioids. So as soon as we discovered those, like, yeah, like I was home, you know, it was, that was, that was wonderful to me. And I remember the effects of those wearing off or not being able to find them or, or whatever and still having to go to work, you know, spending $175 just to get out of bed.

So, so how much when you're in, in your active addiction, in the cr. In the height of it, how much were you spending? Because a lot of people don't understand how expensive opioids are. I don't care how much money you have. You don't have enough for that.

You don't.

You really don't.

Yeah. At the height of it. Now these are Canadian dollars, not American dollars. So at the height of it, between the two of us, we were spending $1,000 a day.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. So that's probably around 70. It's probably around 750American dollars.

A buttload. It's a buttload.

Yes. Yes. If those were going into a prison. Yes, buttload.

I'm just, I'm just sitting here thinking, like, what do you, what, what do you have to do to come up with 750 a day? That's just to feel the habit, not to pay the.

Yeah, no, we, the party was over.

Anything like, to function, just like Dan is saying, like to get up out the bed.

Yeah. And. And that's somewhere where I'll just say we didn't come by it honestly and we'll just put it. Leave it. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, we can take that. We can read between the lines.

Okay.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

But one of the things that I've noticed, especially with the opioids, is you get on that like the four hour treadmill, right. And it's like you can't. That's when everything just falls apart because you can't function without it. And every four or five hours you have to have more. And so you're stuck constantly getting the money for it. Getting it waiting for the dude to meet you in the parking lot. You know, I mean, just, it's just like consumes everything.

And that guy doesn't give a crap about your feelings, I'll tell you that right now. No, all of a sudden you'll be sitting there and he'll just stop answering his phone and. And then what do you do? This is, this is real life that you're dealing with here. You know, you need these things to be able to even go to work to get the money you need to get them. And then you get stuck in a cycle where all you're doing is working so hard to get the money you need to get the doped so that you can be well enough to work to get the money you need to get the dope. And it's just, it just never ends, you know?

Yeah. You're just, you're just caught. And the treadmill goes faster and faster and faster the longer you're on it. So if you could just imagine you're running on this treadmill and it's just speeding up.

Yeah.

Incrementally the whole time. The tolerance gets more. You need more, you've got to run faster. And it, when you think about that, it's easy to see how someone's life could fall apart.

Yeah. Yeah. And at some point, you know, like the, the phone stopped ringing. You know, my, my company shut down because I wasn't able to show up. And when I did show up. I didn't do very good work, and I was late and this and that and all the things I got a job in, in working for another company. And that slowly just got worse and worse and worse, too. I started to tarnish their reputation. You know, they trusted me with one of their welding trucks, and I was going to job sites, and I would just leave the job site in the middle of the day with the welding truck because I needed to hook up, you know, like, I needed. I was getting sick. So, you know, but.

And I want. I want to sort of zone in there just a little bit. Dan. Because we have a lot of families that watch. And at this point in an addiction story. And Dan, you tell me if I'm wrong. It's not about getting high.

No.

It's about surviving. It's about. He's not. He's not leaving work to go get high. He's leaving work to get what he needs to be. To just be okay. Live.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, like I said before, the, the party was. Was definitely over. Yeah.

Right. It's not fun anymore.

No.

Trapped.

Yeah. I remember lots of times, you know, like, I would be at. Before work, like, not even really dope sick yet or anything first thing in the morning with looking at big lines on the. On the coffee table and just, Just crying because, like, there's that. That's $175 or whatever. Just that I, I. If I don't take it, I'm gonna get so sick I can't work.

Right.

And.

And so if it was you and her, you both were on this treadmill, and you both had to come up with the money.

Yep.

Wow. And at that point, it's like, I call it using against your will. Like, you don't even want to be doing it, but you have to.

Yeah, well, it feels like that, you know, of course, like, we can all be like, well, this is a decision. Like, I can decide to quit my job to reach out for help, to do the things, go to meetings, tough out the withdrawal.

Right.

Feel like I'm going to die. But when you're in that. When you're in that space in your mind, it's such in the moment. Like, no, it's. It feels impossible. Like, it feels like there's just no other alternative. And it does feel against your will.

I'm so glad you said that. Because it's hard. It's hard for people sometimes to understand why you don't just sort of walk out of the room, you know, walk out of the door and do something else. But you're right. You're so trapped on this treadmill that you can't even stop long enough. It's not like you. You're backing up from your life and having these, you know, long conversations with yourself and these, like, epiphany moments and making decisions about your life. You are in survival mode. Like, the house is on fire around.

You and you're just fight or flight.

Surviving moment to moment. You can't even stop to think about it.

Yep. And then, of course, the thoughts, like, if I do go to detox, if I do go to treatment, like, that's like six weeks. How am I going to pay my bills? Who's going to take care of the family? Who's going to this, that the next thing, run the business, whatever. You know, these are. These are real life things. And people can sit there and be like, well, do you want to live or do you want to die? Well, I want to live.

Right, right, right. But you're trapped. And so even if you could figure, I mean, you can't stop long enough to figure out the answer to those questions. You can't stop long enough to make the 55 phone calls it takes to call, you know, to find out, can I go there? Do you have it? Like, you're so. At that point, you can't. You just can't. If you slow down, the treadmill is going to throw you off the back end.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a fact. So one day I. One day I came home from work and I sat down and Donna curled up beside me and said with. With all of the. The tenderness and love that she could. That she was pregnant.

Wow.

Yeah. So. And when you are heavily addicted to fentanyl, I mean, that's a big realization. Even if you're in a good place in your life, that's like, life changing. Like, oh, my gosh, you know?

Yeah. Like any. Any. Any person would think, oh, my gosh, can I handle this? You know, can I be a father? You know?

Yeah.

But when you. You can't. You're, you know, you're barely keeping your own head above water, and then you.

Get, well, I'm really not, you know, I'm really.

Okay. Yeah, true.

So we. For a very short time, we thought, okay, well, we'll wean off on our own. And that very quickly because we tried to do that before, you know, and actually, that's interesting. It's an interesting talking point. So many people say, like, oh, I did this for my kids. You know, I got sober for my kids. Not everybody can do that. And, and if you're watching right now and you're in that and you're a parent and you can't sober up, like, don't worry, you're not alone. Like, you're not alone. You're not a monster and you're loved. So we got on the. The methadone maintenance program is what. What we did. And it worked. We found stability. The cravings went away and, you know, Donna took care of herself. She. She ate well. She, you know, did the nesting thing. She did all the things as. As best we could at the time. I worked. Things leveled out and then when our son was born, born healthy, by the way, there was some complications at. At birth, but nothing to do with anything other than there was a. A little bit too much medication administered and they actually. It. It turned into a very big deal. Uh, it was an emergency C section.

Okay.

Yeah. Well, because his heartbeat dropped. Right.

Right.

So. Okay. But that's a whole story in itself. The long and the long and short of it is he. He is healthy. He. He didn't need any sort of maintenance or anything. So. And. And for anyone who might not understand what that means, maintenance. Some. Sometimes when the mother is on a maintenance program, like methadone or suboxone, sometimes the. The child needs to also have a certain amount of that and. And wean off slowly or right. Whatever that looks like. That was not the case with our son for whatever reason.

Wow.

Yeah. So. And life went on like, oh, we got a baby now go home. And we did the. The parenting thing. And, and we got everything as sorted as we could and some renovations happened in the home and I went to work and she stayed home and cared for our son. And then.

Let me pause you right there because I think there's an important point there.

Yep.

Getting on the methadone, which for those of you don't know, is an opiate replacement medicine. It's also an opiate, but you get it legitly at the place there's a doctor and they give it to you. And it's not for everyone. I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is it allowed you to get off of the four hour treadmill.

Yes.

And as soon as you are off, it's interesting because even though you said the opioid in you, but as soon as you're off and you're stabilized, you guys go back to being functioning adults. Right. So it's not that just addicts are just not functioning because they don't want to be functioning or because they don't care about themselves or they don't care. It's. It's literally because they can't. And so as soon as you got that and you stabilize, you're working. She's doing all the things that she needs to do. You know, it's just. I just want to. I just want families to understand that. Because a lot you may have a loved one who's not in that spot, and you may wonder what is wrong with, you know, why aren't you. Why aren't you doing the things, you know, a young person should do?

Yeah. And. And that. That happens a lot. It. It's just like your brain is so filled with solving the problem of staying well that you don't have time to tend. You don't have the. The capacity to tend to life in a meaningful way that is sustainable like you. That. That. I shouldn't say you. I should say that was my experience, you know, I think that's the experience.

Yeah. I think that's it.

Yeah. So about six months after we had our son, we just got the itch, I guess. You know, we've been doing so good. Opioids were our problem. We could probably do cocaine.

Okay.

And we did. And. And we got away with it the first time. And it's like, well, maybe we can do it on weekends then. And. And I do. I need to. Do. I need to, you know, keep going there, like, you know, weekends, then Wednesdays, then Mondays, Tuesdays, Fridays, then. And now we're moved back to. To meth.

How. How long between making the decision, like, using cocaine for the first time after, you know, till it was back to, like, oh, it was on, like, how long of a time period are we talking?

If it was two months, I would be surprised.

Okay.

Quick, like. Yeah, it's not. I didn't mark it on the calendar, but it would. It escalated very, very quickly, just like it had every time in the past. Right. So now we're using meth and we're like, I'm starting to have dirty tox screens, you know, because we. We have to. We have to take drug tests to stay on the method.

Right.

You know, and we. I kept pissing dirty and got kicked off. So we successfully weaned off of the methadone program and onto meth.

Wow.

Yeah. And that went on. I mean, that. That didn't just stop on its own, but that. This is getting to the place that we talked about a little bit earlier. I couldn't hold down a job Anymore. You know, I was showing. I had big sores all over my face. I was, I was letting my employer down time and time again. Not showing up, doing bad work, having a bad attitude on job sites. You know, I. And eventually it came to a place where they didn't have a choice. You know, they. They didn't have the services to help me. They didn't know how to access services that could help me, and they couldn't keep me.

Did they know, did they know what was going on with you?

I didn't tell them, but it was glaringly obvious.

Obvious. Okay.

Yeah, they, they, they definitely knew, so. And they, frankly, they kept me longer than, than they should have. They, they were very good employers, very good people. I, I did have an opportunity to go and make amends with them, and I think they landed okay. But I cost that company a lot, A lot. So. But I ran into them a few years later, actually, just in this past year, I ran into the two of the owners and they're like, oh, hey. You know, like, so definitely kind people. So. But anyways, so that's when I turned to a life of, of scavenging dumpster diving for copper, for bottles, for whatever I could get my hands on. I had this delusion that I was going to have a recycling company. I was going to. Yeah, that was, that was my plan. I was going to sign contracts with all the big companies in town that I had exclusive rights to their dump. Maybe not a terrible idea, actually, if done properly, but I was not doing that thing properly, you know, so let.

Me, Let me ask you this then. I mean, clearly, just listening to you, I can tell that you're just sort of like an entrepreneur at heart, right? Like, you were gonna have a meth business that you're gonna, you had, you did have a whaling business. Was this sort of just another spin on that? The way you're always trying to, like, think that, or is. Is this more in the delusional lane?

Well, I mean, I've always had an entrepreneurial streak, whether that was in wellness or otherwise. So the means in which I thought I was going to get there, I think was the delusional part. Someone whose life is, Is ruled by these illicit substances is, Is hardly one set for success, right? So things just continued to spiral, you know, like the, the house filled up with garbage because I was not. I was bringing things home that were shiny but not valuable, you know, like, oh, here's a VCR from 1980. I can fix this. You know, and then I just end up Tearing it apart and taking a circuit board out of it or something. You know, it's the insanity of, of the, the substance I was using and. Yeah, the house filled up with garbage. I was recluse. I was in the garage all the time. Donna was in the home trying to take care of our son, you know, and some, some really bad people started to show up. We. We'd evaded that for our whole using career, The, The, The. The gang life and, and, and that stuff. And, and at the very end, some, some really bad people showed up.

Like people you owed money to or something. Or something.

Not even that. No, not even that. Just, Just unwell people. Just. We had a house. They could be in that house.

Okay, okay. Just attract in that crowd because you're running in those circles.

Okay, I'm following so. And things just continued to get darker and darker and darker until that day when child protection showed up, and now we're there.

Had you and Donna ever, during this stint, had you had conversations about it? Had you tried to get out of it? Had you even thought about getting out of it?

You know, I, I think. I don't. I don't clearly remember, to be honest. I. I don't remember. I'm sure that there must have been plans hatched to, to find a better way, but nothing was taken seriously, you know, as serious as we could. I know before our son was born, we did have some times where we tried to go to meetings, we tried to do it ourselves. We would get to day three, and this is when we were on opioids. Anybody who come off opioids, know this, knows that day three is like the day of reckoning, you know, and we, we could never get past that. But no, we didn't really take any genuinely serious cracks at it. And even after our son was. Was apprehended, you know, it just. The pain from that sort of drove us further apart, you know, now that. That thing that we were trying to be there for was now gone.

Like the one thing that kept you somewhat grounded.

Yeah.

At all.

Yeah. Okay. So now. Now. And he was placed with his. With his grandparents, so it wasn't like he was completely detached from family, but we weren't allowed to see him.

Wow.

So it was shortly after that that. That Donna left and she went to a life on. On the streets with very unwell people. And some. That's the part of the story that's not mine to tell, but it. It got really challenging for her, to say the very least.

Right.

And then, you know, they, they they kept coming back for a while. You know, I would get text messages and, you know, we would go back and forth, me and these. These gang member just saying horrible things to each other. They would. I would get text messages saying what lights were on in my house at any given hour of the day. They were just to let me know they were watching. They're say, you know, I'd get text messages, say, come outside so I can kill you.

Wow.

Yeah, it got. It got really bad and then it got quiet. I had nothing left to steal. They got sick of, you know, there was a one. One instance where I was held hostage in my bathroom. I had an ax to my throat. And I don't know, I guess they just got sick of torturing me. And they left me alone. And it got real quiet. And that's when my mom showed up one day. She said, dan, let's go for lunch. And I'm like, I could eat, you know, because I was. And keep in mind, at this time, I. I wouldn't shower for six weeks at a time. I would be. I would be dumpster diving every single day. I wouldn't even take my boots off for weeks. I. You know, sleeping on a couch with no cushions in a house with no heat.

Is that. Is that. And is that partially because time is different on that. Substance feels different.

I mean, who's to say, okay, everything's different. Reality is different. But so I stunk, you know, I wouldn't change my clothes, you know, because I didn't have clothes to change into. You know, it had gone to that place where there was just. Literally there was. There was nowhere left to go. There was a fork in the road. And my mom takes me for lunch and she sits me down and I get a. I think I got a beer. And I'm sitting there drinking my beer and eating my burger. And she's like, dan, look like you. You got to go back up north and you got to find some stability and you gotta get a home. You have to find, you know, you have to work with the ministry and get your son back and be a dad and do all these things. And I looked at her in the face and I said, mom, don't I need to get clean first? And the look on her face changed and she said, yes. And she. She had. She reached in her purse and she pulled out a form. Form was all filled out. She filled it all out. Wow. And she put it on the table and she pointed at the dotted line and she said, fucking sign there. And I did.

Wow.

And 10 days later, I walked through detox doors.

So why did you sign there?

Because it was my choice. I came to a place where I had an opportunity to do better. And my mom knew. Hang on. And my mom knew, with all of her experience working with people who are challenged with substance use, if. If she said, you have to go to detox, I wouldn't. I would have pushed back. But she got me to tell her. So that was the day I like to say that my mom, Jedi mind, tricked me into detox.

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So she need to do this and this and this. And you're like, yeah, everything. Everything.

Yeah.

Sitting on ready.

I like, she was ready. Yeah. She had that in the chamber.

Wow.

So who's to say how long that was in her purse for? I don't know. But it was. It was filled out. It was ready. Because she knew. She knew that we're an impulsive bunch. And that's probably the. A big problem with. With the services that we have around here is that when someone who's using substances problematically and they can't stop, they say, I am ready. It's like, I'm ready right now.

Right now.

Capitalizing on that impulsive nature within the hours.

Like, right now? Yeah.

Like, this is the hour of reckoning. We do this now, or I'm going to be back in the sticks.

Right. I'm so glad you said it, because it's one of the things that we teach families is you got to be working behind the scenes to find options. And you need to be sitting on ready because just like your mom, she. She probably didn't know exactly when you'd say, I got to do it, but she was going to be ready when you did. Because if she hadn't been ready.

That's right.

Should have missed the window. We call it like a window, and you missed the window.

So, yeah, if I could say anything to parents and, like, I'm not an addictions professional. Like, I'm just. I'm just a guy that. That's been through some stuff, and I'm using that to help people. If you can't, like, I mean it. You can love someone and not be able to be around them, but be ready. Just be ready, you know, like have that plan.

What's your mom's name?

My mom's name is Brenda.

Brenda's a boss. I like her.

She is boss. Oh, you think she stopped giving me when I got sober? I am. You are mistaken.

No, she's a mom. Like I'm a.

I like to say like she, she, metaphorically, she sits in the corner waving a hard knocks, talks flag with one hand and the other hands up, ready to cuff me if I get out of line.

That's good moming right there.

I agree. Yeah.

That's awesome. Okay, so. So she was this paper out of her purse. Like you hadn't even had a thought about this and you just signed.

Yeah.

Because at that moment it probably felt, thank God, like, Like a door opened.

Yep. So I went to detox. I did the thing. Worst Valentine's Day ever. And then, you know, I did the 10 days and then I got out for two days. I went back to my family. No desire to use, no desire to drink, no desire to go off on my own somewhere and, and do whatever. I don't know. I don't know. The desire to use had been taken from me. That's what I know.

Is it because it wasn't fun anymore at all. Like, it was just misery. Is it something else? Is it?

I'll remember. I never, I'll never forget the last time that someone handed me a meth pipe. Like, my mom had already pulled up in front of the house. I saw her there. She was coming to grab me to go to detox. And someone handed me the pipe. Like, one last haul, buddy, here you go. And I looked at it and it was all burnt and gross. And in that moment, I was like, I don't want this anymore. So I could have hauled on that and gotten a big gross blast and it would have been terrible. But I was just done. I was just. I was just done, you know, and that's unfortunately, with. With the overdose crisis the way that it is right now, unfortunately, so many people are being robbed of that experience. They don't have the opportunity to reach that space. Right. So. But anyways, I did. I got through detox. I went to treatment for 28 days. They counselors kicked my ass around the treatment center. That's what works for me. That's what works for me. Yeah, I'm the guy, sit down, shut up, you know, do the work. That's. That's how I, I. And that's what worked for me early on, you know, and, and it's, it's not like, it's not like I'm like, oh, yes, this is amazing. But I know myself well enough to know that there's lots of times in my life where I need to be like, I need someone to be like, dan, you're up. You know, like, you're making a mistake right now, and I need to be told that. And, you know, like, so I got out.

It's a combination of being at a place of readiness and then that being there. Right. Because I'm guessing there were other points. Somebody could have tried to do that and it wouldn't have worked.

But who's to say, you know, like, they can't be around me 24 hours a day, you know, like, maybe, maybe there would have been. Maybe there was. You know, but, you know, I. So I got out of treatment. I thought I was the best at recovery, you know, riding the pink cloud, so to speak. And I. I got out and I just said, mom, what do I do? Like, I don't know what to do. What do I do? And she said, she says, go here and here and here and here and do the things. Work with the ministry, you know, get access to your son. Live with your brother. Go to meetings, Go to meetings, go to meetings. I'm like, can I have a ride? She's like, no. She said, no, no, you can't have a ride. Get a bike. So. So I got a bike. And you know what? Looking back now, that became my story. I am the one. I pedaled my goddamn ass off. I went to meetings, I went to the ministry. I got myself to those places.

It was part of the therapeutic process. Part of it.

Damn straight. Wow.

Love it.

Yeah. And look, I'm glad she didn't give me a ride, you know, so. And even at the time, even at the time, I think I had enough awareness. Like, I. I was grateful. Like, thank you for not coddling me, you know, 36 year old man, get my damn ass to my own meeting, you know, And I did. I went to two meetings a day for a year. I got into sober living. I got into sober living, house, weekly piss tests. I. I did whatever the ministry wanted. It wasn't a matter of arguing with the ministry. It wasn't like, what does Dan need? It's, what does the ministry need? Like, what do I need to do to. To make this all okay?

You're at a point of real, like, humility and willingness. I mean.

Yeah, yeah. And resentment. I was loaded. I was over the moon with resentment at the time. In fact, I think a lot of my early recovery was fueled on resentment. And I'll say that till the bitter end, like, I was like, I'm gonna get sober before she does. I'm gonna do this before she does.

Yeah, okay.

But looking back now, I'm not saying that that's Right. I'm not saying that that's right. But what I'm saying is that this is my story and I'm telling it to the best of my ability. Maybe next week I'll have another realization and be like, no, it wasn't resentment, actually. It was this or it was that. But at this point in my growth, that's kind of how I look back on that. With as much honesty as I'm capable of having.

Yeah. I say there's no bad reason. There's zero bad reasons.

Yeah. Whatever gets you through the door. People say, like, oh, you can't get sober for any other reason than you can. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Now, the challenge is staying sober, staying in that. In that wellness and continuing to grow and heal and move forward. Yes. Now, that is something that has become my own journey. I'm doing that.

You have to stay sober for yourself.

Yes.

But that comes later.

That. And that's.

Families always think that's supposed to come, and then the person goes and gets us. Like, no, the person doesn't get sober. And then that happens.

Yeah. And like I said, like, I'm not here to say that that is the way that it's supposed to go, but that was my experience.

Experience. I. I don't know if it's the way it's supposed to go. I can say it's the way it usually goes because I've been doing this 20 years, thousands of people, and sometimes people don't tell it that way.

Yeah.

And when they're in recovery and they tell you their story, but I'm on the front lines. I can tell you that's what usually happens. Yeah.

Got a comment here that I want to look at. I just noticed it here from Richard Phillips. Resentment is a luxury we can't afford. That's the truth, man. Like, it served me for a minute. Like, it light. It lit that fire and kept me pushing forward. But, man, like, it is not sustainable. Not sustainable. That, like resentment. It's like resentment or relationships is the number one offender.

Yeah.

You know, what does that mean?

I know what that means. But some people that says it's recovery lingo. What does that mean? Resentment is the number one offender.

Resentment is the number one offender in relapse. Like, if anything's going to take you out, if anything's going to drive you to a place where you just cannot handle to be without your substance, odds are resentment is, is. Is near the top of that list, you know, and honestly, I was so done with using that. My option was Darker than using. I, I would have ended it all before I went back using. And to be quite honest, I didn't have my first suicidal thought. Out of all the shit that I just told you guys, I didn't have my first suicidal thought in my life until I was nine months in recovery. That was the first time where I, where it felt like that would be easier than what I was going through.

Okay. Wow. Yeah, well, there's no substance to numb anything then. No, it's just you have to experience it all, whatever's happening.

Yeah.

So tell us, tell us the happy ending. We need a happy ending, Dan.

I've got one. It's not an easy happy ending, but it is definitely happier than the beginning. So I got, I, I. So long story short, I got my I, I got my son back. You know, it was, it was every other weekend for two hours supervised access, a social worker in the room furiously taking notes the entire time. Then it went to three hours and then it went to unsupervised access at the sober living facility. And then it was started three hours, six hours, then overnights, then two days, weekends. And so I got sober on February 12th of 2017. By July 31st of, of 2017, 2017, I was awarded intern custody of my three year old son. Wow. And, and, and him and I, we took on life together. You know, I was still under the supervision at the, at the, at the sober living house. We went to meetings, he got into preschool. I got a cart to pull behind my bike. Daddy, faster, Daddy, faster. Going over the bumps and having fun and being mad and yelling at him and he's yelling at me and just getting through the day. That's another thing. We're not perfect. Parents aren't perfect. And when I had six months sober, like they say, get a plant and keep a plant alive. Right. Well, they get. I got a three year old little boy that was raised in some unsavory circumstances. Yeah. And then spent 18 months, or no, he spent 10 months or so with his grandparents who, who did their best just to make him feel comfortable. So he didn't have a lot of rules, there wasn't a lot of boundaries. So anyways, he comes bouncing back and, and of course who came back with him?

The puppy.

Puppy came back. So I had puppy back in my life and also my son. So yeah, I made a lot of mistakes. I said some things I shouldn't have and I behaved in ways that were less than savory. And life went on. We graduated. It was called the coming home Program. And, yeah, we. We graduated. That. And I got a job and moved into an apartment, and he went to school, and I went. Kept going to meetings, doing my thing. He. Everybody in the rooms knew Grady and little redhead, and he'd get his big headphones on and watch his show while I was in a meeting. And. And then. And then Donna entered recovery, and she came skidding off the streets.

Dude, I couldn't read a better movie script. That's the happy ending we want right there.

Yeah.

Yeah, we like it.

Oh. But long story short, it didn't go well at first. It got better as time went on. There was some court action taken, and we had to fight about a whole bunch of things. But then a couple years down the road, I was. I was. It was in covet. I was gonna be a safety professional. I got into class school to be a safety professional. And the idea came into my head just randomly one day that I should start a podcast. And I'm like, where did that come from? I barely know how to open a Word document. So I. I did that. And February 12th of 2021, my four years sober, the very first episode of Hard Knocks Talks went live on Facebook, YouTube, and Twitch TV. And. Yeah. And three months later, like, it immediately became, like, school with my side hustle. And then, like, three months in, like, I should have a sponsor. So I went looking around and I found some sponsors, and. And now I'm. Now I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm making income, and. And I've got a. I've got a fancy microphone, and I've got a green screen, and I've got. Here, I can show you. Look at. I've got this.

Wow. Looks like a newsroom in there.

Yeah.

Wow.

That happened. And In February of 2022. January of February. January of 2022, I dropped out of school, and I've been doing this full time ever since. And shortly after that, Donna came to me, and she's like, I. What do you. What are you doing? Like, this is amazing. She's like, I. I need some fulfillment in my life. Like, I feel like I have no purpose. So she came to help me. And shortly after that, we. We reconciled after five years apart.

For those of you who are listening, some of you may have seen my video a couple of weeks back where I said addiction is really a misdirected superpower. This is what I'm talking about. This is it. You take the addiction out and you. You let somebody use that. Obsessive, relentless, stop at nothing, get What I want thing. And it works, right? It works, right.

Wanting to feel better is not a defect of character.

That's right. Everybody wants to feel better.

Exactly.

And it's just a non productive way of doing it.

I got lost somewhere along the way, you know, but this is, this is. I found that the best way to overcome my substance use challenges is finding a meaningful and productive way to serve community.

Right.

So. So now this is what we do. We're a family of streamers, I guess you could say.

Using your superpower for the good. That's what I like.

Yeah. Yeah. We just crossed over 115,000 followers on Facebook. We go live every Sunday night.

So tell. Tell everybody where they can find you in case they want to listen to your podcast or join your lives.

Oh, we are extremely easy to find. We can. Of course, Facebook is our main thing. We're always. I'm always posting stuff on Facebook. So Hard Knocks talks on Facebook. You can find our content on YouTube. You can. If you can't check us out live, that's cool. You can listen to us on your way to work on Apple podcasts or Spotify or Google Podcast or really wherever you listen to podcasts. If you find a platform that we're not on, like if that's your grind and you like that, let us know and we'll see if we can become discoverable there. We also have a website, hard knockstalks.com and keep up to date on all upcoming streams. And this is what we do full time, you know, and we love it. So.

And I put your website link in the description for anybody who's looking, so it is there. And I'll also put it in the comments for those people who are watching the replay and that kind of thing too.

Awesome.

Thank you so much for sharing. That's an incredible story.

Well, thanks so much for having me today. Sorry that we went a little long on the dark half and didn't get to spend too much time on the light half, but I think that's how.

The movies work, right? It's like all the build up.

Yeah, yeah. And then some good stuff at the end.

That's right.

I like it. Awesome.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you. We appreciate it. You guys go check out Dan at Hard Knocks Talks.

You.

You won't regret it. And he talks to a lot of other people and shares a lot of other very inspirational stories.

Thanks so much for listening, you guys.