Why You Still Don’t Feel Close After They Get Sober

We don't just wrestle with a substance, we wrestle with a story. And that's the big thing we need to acknowledge here. Small behaviors reinforce new beliefs faster than big promises. We can make small behavior changes or we can make big promises. Usually the big promises set us up for failure.

Sometimes we, we like to call our guests expert witnesses. Mitchell Osmond from the YouTube channel Dad Nation. I was listening to one of your YouTube videos recently and you said something, Mitchell, that really Like, got my attention. Like, I just stop and get my notebook out and write it down, kind of get my attention. You were talking, Mitchell, about this concept of— and I love the way you said it. You said something like, when you're young, your environment sort of dictates your attitude, but when you're older, your attitude dictates your environment. And I was like, man, that's gold. We got to get Mitchell on here to talk about that because so true. Tell it— tell us about that.

Yeah, well, I mean, really, I think at the end of the day, this is You know, the truth in that sense, when we're growing up, we are a byproduct of our, our environment, right? And that shapes how we see the world. That gives us our mental framework. And that's— that can be a good thing. That can also be a sad thing for some people who are raised in challenging environments or homes with addiction or, you know, you name it. And so really, at the end of the day, is a lot of people begin to grow up and they continue to think that their environment continues to shape their attitude, you know. And so they become a victim of their environment. They sort of live in that way. But what I teach my clients is that it's actually backward, that you can allow your attitude and shift your attitude and shift your mindset to change your environment, that you can take ownership, that you can take responsibility and authorship of your life and rewrite your story, not just your future, but also your past, and to bring your past in alignment with your ideal future. And when people can make that shift and say, I'm no longer going to let my environment shape my attitude like I did I was a child. We're actually going to flip that, and now we're going to say, I'm going to change my mindset or my attitude to help shift and cultivate the ideal, perfect environment for me to thrive in. Does that make sense?

Oh my gosh, you're giving me too much here. I'm trying to— I'm over here counting, like, come back to that and come back to this. You're giving me a lot here. I love it. So let's go back first to the childhood piece and, and explain what you mean when you say your environment shapes your attitude or shapes who you are, shapes your personality and your, your outlook and those kind of things.

Yeah, so a real simple— I'll share with you my personal story, maybe a little bit, and where it affected me. So I came from a dysfunctional upbringing. I had a nonexistent relationship with my father. Alcoholism, drugs, crime were littered throughout my family growing up. And I was kind of caught in the middle of it all, right? And so I knew where I came from, and I knew I wanted something different for my life, but I was stuck in these traps because I only knew what was modeled for me. I didn't know how to have a healthy marriage. I didn't know how to be clean and sober. I didn't know how to make good choices For my health, my fitness. And so the thing that was modeled was, you know, alcohol, drugs, checking out, things like that. And so I was really good at that. But at times, I felt like I was 2 different people trapped in my body, right? Because I would lead board meetings and lead teams, and I was in leadership positions, but I'd come home and I just would fall back into the cycle and back into this trap. And I was like powerful at work, and I believed I was, but I felt powerless at home because I'd come home and I had no control.

Yeah.

But that's because I was using the rules in the playbook and believing the script, the environment that I was raised in as a child, right? And so for example, for me, when I grew up, I was always told, you're going to be just like your father, alcoholic, absent, and you're not the smart one in your family, right? That's your older sister. And so I grew up thinking, number one, I'm not intelligent, I'm not going to be destined to do anything good. Then I was raised to think that, you know, I'm destined for mediocrity, that I'm potentially bound for addiction, and I'm certainly never going to help anyone. Right? And so I believe that, right? And then so what happened? What did I do? So that was my— the environment that I was raised in, it shaped my attitude about myself. And then what happened? I grew up and I started to live and surround myself with other people who were struggling with those same things and believe the same things about themselves because I didn't believe anything different. This is because, again, the brain is always trying to make sense of the world and what's going on around it. So if you believe something like a limiting self-belief or a You know, whatever, then you're gonna— your brain is gonna help your action do your— make sense of, of what you're already believing, because that's— then it can sort of achieve— it makes sense to it, right? Versus living out of what you believe. And this is why it's so hard for people to change, right?

It's like self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It's like, exactly, you're looking for evidence that supports what you already think, and so you reinforce your own beliefs that reinforce your own attitude, and it's just this constant feedback loop.

100%. And so I grew up with that and then even when I got married, it really came out because me and my wife, the first 3 years of marriage were so, so difficult and my wounds, you know, that weren't processed and weren't healed from began to bleed out into my marriage and so I spiraled into depression, I gained 60 pounds, we were $100 grand in debt, almost divorced and I was medicating with drugs and alcohol just like my dad did when I was being raised and I found myself in that very cycle and believing that this was what was— to be my part in life. So that was kind of how it played out in my life. And that's what I mean when I say your environment shapes your attitude, because then you have this sort of attitude of like, well, this is just my lot in life, I guess. This is all I'm gonna ever be. I'm too emotional, or I'm gonna end up just like my father, or I'm just a screw-up. And you begin to play out the words that people spoken to you, whether it's friends, bullies, parents, teachers, you know, and like wet cement These words harden into reality for you and into your identity, and it becomes your story.

Right, right. It's that learned helplessness, right? It's that we, we come to believe these things as children sometimes, and we don't even— and mostly subconsciously, but we don't step back to reassess. Is that really the case? Or maybe it was the case, but is it still the case? You know, what's different about me or my situation now?

We just keep operating on those same subconscious Well, we know that subconsciously, like 95% of your decisions you make every single day are subconscious. Only 5% of the decisions you make are actually conscious decisions. That's why you can drive to work and not even know how you got there. But the other byproduct of that is if we don't learn how to question those embedded beliefs, we keep reliving the same struggles, relive same problems, frustrations, and essentially we end up reliving the same year over and over again. Right. And that's what a lot of my clients find themselves stuck in. And that's kind of how it works. And so the process of extracting those lies from your subconscious mind, questioning them, and then speaking truth into them and replanting them into your subconscious mind is what's so important. I love this quote from Mark Twain. He says, most men die at 27, but we don't bury them until they're 72. Meaning you grow up with all these lies and all those things, and you begin to kind of just die to your needs. And you believe these things that were spoken over to you, and you just kind of become a shell. of a man. And so you die on the inside, but we don't bury you until you're 72. And so powerful quote that I see lived out in so many people's lives, right?

There's another YouTube I follow talks about something totally different, but he calls it your lie identity— the things you were told that you just began to accept about yourself and take on as your identity at some point in your life.

Yeah, and we know, like, for example— I mean, it's huge. There's a study that was published in the Clinical Psychology Review where researchers found that unresolved childhood trauma was directly correlated with higher levels of self-destructive behavior in adulthood, including addiction, emotional suppression, relational instability. And even for men specifically, you know, if you're listening today, 60% of men report feeling emotionally shut down at least once a week. 1 in 3 men admit that they don't feel safe being completely honest, even with their closest friends.

Mm-hmm.

And then, uh, nearly 80% of suicides are men, linked— often linked to emotional isolation and unresolved internal scripts, lies that we're believing, that this world would be better off without me, you know, you name it, right? So it's powerful.

It is powerful. My, my son who just turned 14, and he and I were talking about this recently, we were talking about what's harder about being a guy, a man, and what's harder, you know, there's some things harder about being a man, there's some things harder about being a woman. And he was talking about how this whole like having to suppress all your emotions and put on this mask. So even at just turned 14, just into teenagehood, he's very aware of that in himself and his Well, you know, Amber, that's number one, that's amazing that he's recognizing that.

And there's actually a term around that. Psychologists have created a term called normative male alexithymia, and you can Google it. That sounds fancy. It's called normative male alexithymia. And really what that means is they've really kind of created this term to explain how— why men actually struggle with communicating their emotions and actually cannot find the words. Part of that word means to arrest, like you can't speak. And so when you press men to talk about their emotions, sometimes they clam up. We literally don't have the words, and even if we did, we don't feel comfortable sharing them because we've been raised in a culture that says men don't talk about their feelings. You know, you stuff it. And when you think about this, Amber, we're just a few generations removed from World War II. And what happened there? Significant PTSD, significant trauma. And those men, God bless them, but they didn't have the resources and tools to be able to process their emotions. So drank, they gambled, they, you know, did drugs, whatever. They stuffed it and then they taught their sons and their sons taught their sons and here we are. And so we must acknowledge our history. And so no wonder we struggle, right, to connect on an emotional level and with these wives.

Generational trauma is how trauma gets passed on generation to generation. So we've talked a little bit about childhood, how that shapes who you are, how you think, you create these beliefs about yourself. But then in adulthood, you often don't realize it, but you can actually shift some of that and that can actually shift your environment. And we talk a lot about this on the channel without saying it, but I talk a lot to people who have addicted loved ones and people tell them over and over, there's nothing you can do. You have to wait till they hit bottom. They have to want it for themselves. Hopefully they'll figure it out. And that's honestly, I feel like that's kind of crazy because this is your family. This is your son or your husband or your wife or whoever. And it's like, that's unacceptable. There's got to be something else. And I completely agree. You can shift your attitude, which will shift their attitude. In their environment, because there's an interplay in our environments, in our relationships, and in us. And it's like a system. I like to think of it like those wheels in a clock. If you shift one of those gears, the rest of the gears are going to shift. So I'm definitely interested in hearing about this, how maybe it worked for you, how it works for the people that you work with.

Yeah, well, that's a great question. And thank you for asking it, Amber, because I agree with you. It's powerful. And we can't just write people off. There is a way around this, I think, and it's just in my scenario that I share, you know, I had let what others said about me become what I believed about me, or in other words, I let my environment shape my attitude like we've been talking about, and that's actually so often what happens when we stumble into addiction. We don't just wrestle with a substance. We wrestle with a story, and that's the big thing we need to acknowledge here, and that story often says, this is just who you are. You're broken. You're powerless. You'll never change, and that's a lie. Right? And it's time to flip the script. And this is what I help my clients do. And so I have a framework that I created, whether you're in business leadership, and you're struggling with like an imposter syndrome or self-limiting belief, or you're struggling with addiction, you name it. I mean, this is multifaceted, right? But it's called the Author's Advantage. And it's really a process that will help you reshape your past, refocus your present, and then rewrite your future. And really what happens here, Amber, is like we were talking about, most people get stuck in what I call the default way. So we think our past leads to our present, and our present dictates our future. So to really lay it out, like the mistakes and the lies, the trauma from the past affects how we respond in the present. And then what happens is we limit ourselves, we self-sabotage, we doubt ourselves, which then really massively affects our future because we begin to torpedo our relationships and our dreams, and we don't go for it when we know we should, you know. So really put in a simple way is what happens to us in the past decides what happens next. And people who understand the Author's Advantage or start working with this process, they understand that they can take the pen back and rewrite the script for themselves. And so what we do is we actually turn that model on its head and we say, no, no, we're going to start from the future and work our way to the past and bring our past into alignment with the future that we've created, right?

I like that. Powerful. Yeah.

It's powerful. So let me walk you through basically how it works, because at the end of the day, what we need to do is we need to make our past serve our purpose, not sabotage it, right? We need to extract the lies, the trauma, the pain, and find purpose in it, and then bring it into alignment to set us up. And I, I love this quote from Craig Rochelle. He's one of my favorite leadership guys. And he says, the only power the past has over you is the meaning that you keep assigning to it.

Right?

And so we have to break that down. So if you're okay, then I wouldn't mind breaking down a 3-step process for you.

Oh yeah, we would love that.

So number one, we got to start with the future. Okay, so now why is that? So Stephen Covey, you know, in chapter 2 of his famous book, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, literally called Begin with the End in Mind. Napoleon Hill says, begin with the end in mind. And maybe another time I'll share my transformation moment, but it happened at a funeral when the minister asked, are you living a life worthy of imitation? And I was like, holy crap, I'm not. If I died today, nobody would want my marriage. Nobody would want my bank account or my fitness, my body, whatever. I was a mess. And so I was actually forced to begin with the end in mind. And so most people know what they don't want, but very few people understand exactly what they do want. And you need to understand that you have to see the ending before you start to write the middle. And so what I want you to do, if you're listening today is I want you to take 30 minutes, okay? Grab a pen, and I want you to answer this question. Say, for example, we meet each other in an airport after 3 years from recording this podcast, and I'm like, hey Amber, how the heck are you? It's been 3 years since we were on the show. How you doing? And if you were to say, Mitch, this has been the best 3 years of my life, what would have to be true about the past 3 years to make them the best 3 years of your life? And then I want you to go through the foundations of your life and like write that future very, very clearly, like a movie scene, if you will. It's the final driving of the sunset scene and you're gonna write out, what kind of parent am I? What does my marriage look like? How often do I work? Like, what is my relationship with my kids? Where am I living? You know, all those different things. What does my recovery look like? Am I— you know, all those different things and you begin to write a very, very, very clear picture, okay? I don't want you to say like something generic like, I don't want to relapse in 3 years. You know, make it very specific and make it— use definitive language like, I wake up clear-minded every day. I work out 3 times a week. I mentor others in sobriety. I'm emotionally present with my family. Name it out kind of thing, right? I think that's a great idea.

It's important to say what you do want versus what you don't want, right?

Exactly. Because you're creating a clear picture. Every future, you know, every life is created twice. Once in the mind and second in reality. Robin Sharma wrote that in one of his books. And it's true. If you want to get to somewhere, you need to first see it in your mind, right? So that's the first with the future. Start with the future. Begin with the end in mind. Get a very clear picture, okay? The second then, we move to the present. And then we ask ourselves, okay, now that we have this clear picture, how are we going to design our present actions and our strategies To really start to make decisions to get us to that point in the future, right? Because future vision without action is just fantasy. Okay?

Right.

It's just, it's just a lofty dream. So if your dream says you want to be focused and confident, but today you're isolating, you're scrolling, you're medicating, you're avoiding, then this story doesn't match. And again, going back to the, you know, neuroplasticity in your brain, it's not going to make sense. There's going to be an internal dissonance. And so your present actions need to be working toward that future vision. And so I want you to ask yourself now that you have that clear picture, what small habit can I start or stop this week that will align me with that future? Maybe it's getting rid of one toxic relationship, someone that keeps pulling you down. Maybe it's getting an accountability partner or starting a journal before going to bed or committing to workouts, you know, you name it. So that's the present piece. And then we move on to the third piece, which is the past. And this is how we're going to reframe the past to serve our present and our future. Okay, and this is the most important part, and this is where most people get stuck, especially the men, because we try to outrun the past instead of rewriting it. Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

Outrun the past instead of rewrite it. So, but the problem is, is you can't change what happened, but you can change what it means. So what I'm going to give you is a 5-step system to work through this process, and it's just called the Clear Thinking Framework that I created. Okay, clear It's an acronym, and C-L-E-A-R. Okay, so the first step in sort of rewriting your past is number 1, call out the lie. What lie is it that you're believing? Maybe that you're just an angry person, or you're just always going to be an addict, or you're too far gone, or you've missed the moment.

Mm-hmm.

If that's a lie that you're believing, I want you to hear me say that that's not a truth. It's a tape, and now it's time to hit stop on that tape that keeps playing. Number 2 is L, right? At a CLEAR, locate the source. Now once you've identified that lie, you're gonna locate where it came from. Was it a parent? Was it a high school bully? A colleague? You know, you name it, because when you name the source, you break its power. You break its power, and that's important. Number 3, E, is evaluate the cost. What does living by this lie cost me? My peace? My confidence? My marriage? My kids' respect? You know, you name it. And it's important to feel the weight of it, not, not to shame you but to leverage the power of it to be able to change you, right? And then the 4th step which is A, which stands for affirm the truth, okay? So this is where we flip the script and you're gonna write a new statement about— that's true about who you are, right? So for me, it was, you know, I thought I was dumb. I thought I was not the smart one. I blah, blah, blah. You know, I was gonna end up like my father, blah, you know, you name it. So for me, it was, I am an intellectual. I am focused and I have much to offer this world and those I love. There's certainty in that. And then I want you to root those statements, those new truths that you're rewriting, rooted in your faith, rooted in your calling, like in the vision that you wrote earlier. And the 5th step is reinforce with action, right? So, don't just say it but live it, right? So, what's one action you can take this week that's going to prove this new belief to yourself? Because remember, our actions need to align with our beliefs. And so, maybe it's journaling. You know, every night. I'm a big believer in filling those last 30 to 60 minutes before you go to bed, filling your subconscious mind with wins from today and wins you're looking for tomorrow. I call it the power hour, which we can get into another time. Or maybe it's sending a text to your spouse or apologizing to someone you hurt, but you're reinforcing this belief with a new action, right? Because small behaviors reinforce new beliefs faster than big promises. We can make small behavior changes or we can make big promises. Usually the big promises set us up for failure.

Right.

So think small, think minor tweaks, right? And so for a combination of reasons, and you know this, Amber, neurologically speaking, this works, right? When we rewrite and we, we align that to yourself, and now you—

and now you're collecting evidence, and then the belief comes.

This is casting votes for the person you're becoming. It's rebuilding rapport with who— with yourself. That's why we call it self-confidence. We've eroded our relationship and our confidence with ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

And so I want to encourage your listeners today, Amber, if today, if you took that one framework and implemented it, you know, this author's advantage, your past, your future, and your present would completely change. And this is the work that so many people avoid because, especially for men, because it's not tactical. You can't wrap— I mean, it's a bit of a strategy, but it's hard to measure. If you're excelling at work, you get a performance bonus, you know, you get promotion, you name it. But this is the tough work, that deep work that so many people refuse to do, which is why they stay trapped in the same mistakes over and over again, and they keep reliving the same year, the same fights, same struggles. And so the final thing I would say with this framework is simply that if you don't pick up the pen, your past will keep scribbling chapters that you never asked for, right? And so it's so, so important— I want you to hear me say that— to take ownership and to pick up the pen and to begin rewriting new chapters for you and your family. Because I mean, every family has a curse breaker, a cycle breaker. You know, for me and my family, I'm the curse breaker. And if you're listening to this today, for you and your family, you could be that curse breaker.

Absolutely. I'm trying to even think of all the different ways what you're saying is applying to our audience. Like, for example, this idea of the past beliefs and how it's affecting— like, one of the things that's coming to my mind is a lot of the people that watch our— watch this content are people who have addicted loved ones, and some of them have their own past and/or have been told things like, you know, maybe your dad was an addict or an alcoholic. So you're telling yourself, my husband will never get better because people don't get better. And then you go to meetings and you hear all these terrible statistics. So you've convinced yourself that people don't really overcome addiction, even though you're trying these things, you're watching the YouTube channel, you're trying these different techniques. If you hold the belief that someone either can't or isn't going to get better, you're going to be bringing that kind of energy to it, which is going to create that kind of result.

100%. Yeah.

And so you can look at that too from the other person's point of view. Well, I've tried 10 times to stop and I always fail. So you're bringing that limiting belief into the picture, which is triggering certain behaviors. Whereas a lot of times I try to get people to go back and collect evidence to the contrary.

Yes.

I'll say something like, well, tell me about the longest time you had sober. And they'll tell me, well, what were you doing then that worked? And sometimes people are like, well, I had 3 years sober. I had 6 months sober. I had a month sober. I'm like, well, if you had a month sober, Then you figured out something and you were making that work. So it's the evidence that you're collecting. It's kind of like true crime. It's like if you, you've already decided this is the culprit, you collect evidence towards that. And so you got to go back and look for the evidence, the rewriting of the script that you're talking about.

Yeah. Well, there's something called The Gap and the Gain. Have you ever read this book before, Amber?

I've heard of it.

Okay, real quick. I mean, it's a powerful concept, but what happens, Amber, is we compare ourselves to a future ideal. Now the problem with that is it's a carrot on a stick. Right? And it's chasing the horizon. The thing is with the horizon is if you're on a, you know, if me and you are stuck in the middle of the ocean and I say, Amber, we're just gonna row as fast as we can to where the sky meets the sea, the problem is the faster we row, the faster the horizon gets away from us. So it's this constantly moving target. So we're never happy because we're always comparing ourselves to some unmerited or unmeasured ideal. So instead of looking to the future and comparing ourselves to something that we haven't accomplished yet, let's actually look backward to where we've come from. Instead of measuring our lives and being stuck in the gap, we're gonna look into the gain and practice and An attitude of cultivating gratitude and say, how am I better today than I was yesterday and the day before? You know, because here's the thing, either way you're going to get to the future, right? Now, who you are when you get there, I mean, I would rather get there from a place of peace and contentment, celebrating where I've come from, living in the gain versus living in the gap, which is being stressed out because I've never been able to get that promotion or that new house or that new thing. And I'm always living in this place of insufficiency. And so when I reference the power hour, all it is, is you basically, Every single night you write down 3 wins from the day, 3 amazing things that happened, and then you're gonna write down 3 wins that you're gonna go for tomorrow. Because what that does is it allows you to cultivate this skill of gratitude and joy, celebrating the proving, you know, the progress you've made, and then also priming the subconscious mind to go to work while you sleep to look for solutions the next day. Does that make sense?

Right.

And so you're absolutely right. Look backward. I teach my clients a simple AMB: always measure backward, never measure forward, right? Because you'll never be happy.

Well, when you're measuring backward, that's, that's what I mean by you're collecting the evidence. Exactly right. That you can do it. So now you've shifted your belief, which shifts your actions for today and tomorrow, which then changes your future, right?

Powerful.

It is powerful. And these things work. They're just basic human psychology. It's just human spirituality. And whether you have an addiction or you don't, or a loved one, there's something in your life that you're stuck with, some cycle that you're in that you don't want to be in, that you can apply this to. There's a whole therapy around this. They call it narrative therapy, and it's about rewriting your narrative. What's this narrative I tell myself, right? Bad things always happen to me. I have terrible luck. I never win. It's about rewriting that narrative, and it's not about lying to yourself.

No.

It's about looking backwards and looking for the other evidence because we selectively pick up pieces of evidence to prove what we already think when there's probably There's probably a million other pieces of evidence that we could, if we just stopped to collect, which would shift the whole thing.

Yeah, and we don't. But like, we never think about— like, I'm, I'm the worst at this. Something amazing happens, you know, I found out a few weeks ago that my podcast was top 10% in the world, 33,000 monthly listeners. I thought I had like 300 listeners, you know, and I celebrated for about 9 seconds and then I moved on and I was like, okay, how do I, how do I get the 5%? You know what I mean?

Yeah, you went into the gap.

Yeah, I went into the gap instantly. And so it happens on all levels, but it's hugely powerful to be able to cultivate that skill of like looking for moments of breakthrough, looking for moments where we've moved ahead, we've taken steps. It doesn't happen by default. You know, James Clear says, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems.

Mm-hmm.

And so you're not naturally going to get, you know, better overnight. Your perspective, you're not going to magically become more grateful and all those different things. You're going to fall to the level of the systems you have in place. And so what we were talking about is systems. And so that when you fall, you don't really fall. You kind of trip a little bit and you get back up. And systems could be, you know, what we're talking about, the author's advantage, things you're talking about, the gap and the gain, the journaling, you know, you name it. But that's the key, right? Is, is, is growing in that skill. It's not done overnight. Right.

But you have to believe that you can to even get into the mindset to create the systems. Because if you don't, and you have to believe it, it's not just to tell myself nice things, you know, like it makes me think of the old Saturday Night Live Stewart Smalley where he would like look in the mirror and tell himself affirmations.

Yeah.

Which number one feels dorky. And if you don't believe them, it doesn't work. Right? So because once you believe that, then you can get into the mindset of, okay, how can I make that work? Because now I know that I have what it takes to make it work, and now I can really get serious about systems and strategy or technique or method that can really get me to that next level.

Yeah. And, and, you know, I'll share something real quick that helped me. And because everyone asked me, how did you do that? How did you make that shift, Mitchell? Like, how did you lose all that weight, pay off the debt, restore your marriage, you know, you name it? And I surrounded myself with 5 men who my ceiling was their floor, okay? They lived where I wanted to go. And I thought about, what are the 5 areas in my life that I need to see breakthrough in? And I'm going to reach out to them. Who is the guy who has the best marriage? Who's in the best shape? Who has the most money? You know, you name it, right? And I said, hey, would you just— would you be willing to grab a coffee with me once a month? Just sit down and just share with me, because you're obviously— you're successful in this area. And so I surrounded myself with 5 men who could not only show me the steps, because that's key, but also I saw that they were living it, and that helped see it for myself. And they spoke into my life. And I said, because they were within— they're like in my— already in my circle, I'm like, well, if they can do it, I can do it.

Right.

And they held me to that standard that I said I wanted. And that was so huge in my transformation that I developed, like, in my program, I call it the Iron 5. Every single one of my clients has their Iron 5. There are 5 men who rally around them, that support them, that call them up to a higher standard and can help them eliminate that self-belief because they're actually living proof proof that it's possible. The power of community is enormous, right? And so that's, that's a big step in this as well, with helping someone overcome their belief in themselves, right?

In recovery, they talk about getting a sponsor, which is this same sort of idea. And a lot of the people that I see, they're reluctant to getting a sponsor or going to 12-step meetings for various reasons, some of them pretty good reasons. But the idea of connecting yourself to people who are ahead of you is They don't have to be from a 12-step program. If you say, I want what this person has, who do I know that has what I want? How can I connect myself to them? How can I learn from them and do that? Even if you don't know the person, then you can read the book they wrote. Then you can watch the videos that they create. Like, you can put yourself in their orbit. If you know of them, then they've got something out there that you can connect to, right? That influence begins to change how you think, how you feel, how you make decisions.

Well, you know, and I'll say this, Amber. So many— and again, because I work exclusively with men— so many men struggle with reaching out to those people because they don't want to be a burden, or maybe if they're honest, the ego is in the way, or their pride, you know, you name it. And so when I'm going through this process with my community, I basically say, hey, has anyone ever reached out to you for advice in anything? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah. Well, how did that feel? And they're like, that actually felt kind of good. It was nice. Like, it was humbling. I said, did you actually kind of go out of your way to be able to help these people? It just channeled something inside of you. They're like, yeah, I did actually. I moved some things around. So I said, well, what makes you think that you would be any different for reaching out to someone else who's ahead of you, right? They would have the exact same feeling. And so in fact, not only would they be willing to say— would they say yes, they'd probably be excited about it. Because here's the thing, anyone who's ahead of you in that way, who's living the life that you want, is going to understand very clearly what it takes to get Mm-hmm. Right? And so they're going to be cheerleading you. They're going to be supporting you. They're going to want to serve you in some way. It's only the people that are behind you that are going to try and pull you down like a crab in a bucket, right? But I tell you what, it doesn't matter what those people think because they're not going to be where you're going unless they make the changes for themselves. And so again, look forward, reach out, have the courage to reach out because there's a very high probability that it's going to make their day and you're going to give them an opportunity to pour into you, which is going to enrich their lives. And so I would even go as far to say is don't rob people the opportunity to speak into your life by not asking them, right? But we don't do it, and we sit and we stay stuck in these cycles, right? So step out, take the leap.

Yeah, some people describe it, you know, the whole like asking someone to be your sponsor is almost like asking someone out. It feels super, super intimidating, especially if it's one guy to another guy. It just feels like that's awkward, you know, how do I go about doing that? And that letting that ego and that pride stand in the way of what you want, that's one of those narratives, right? Like they're gonna think I'm an idiot, or they're gonna think that's stupid, or they don't have time for that. Or, you know, those are those scripts that we have to rewrite in order to overcome those limiting thoughts, beliefs, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, you know, a real personal powerful expression of that happened to me a little while ago where I'm a big believer in therapy and no matter who you are, my therapist told me, he was like, I want you to reach out to someone who has like a fatherly figure in your life and I want you to sort of reenact or do the same activities that you didn't get to have when you were a child with this new fatherly figure and I was like, what? That's ridiculous. I'm not gonna do that. He's like, please, this is your one assignment. So I'm like, okay, fine. So there's this guy at the church that I go to, just such a solid dude, and I've always kind of seen him as a bit of a father figure to me. So I said, hey man, I pulled him aside one day and I said, hey, so this sounds super weird, and I'm like apologizing about it already, but I'm like, my therapist, you know, said that this blah blah blah, and I'm like, would you be willing to like go out and throw the ball, you know, or you want to go grab like ice cream sometime? And it was so weird. And you know what, he— his eyes started to well up and he said, Mitchell, I've had a difficult relationship with my son and my father was an alcoholic and I was robbed of these experiences as well. And he was like, I would love nothing more than to help reclaim those things that were stolen from you as a child. And what a powerful moment. And I felt like a total idiot walking up to this guy and he was moved He was so emotional and we've both been able to be on this journey of reclaiming things and like, you know, stepping into what otherwise wouldn't have been and it's been such a powerful journey, but it would have never happened if I didn't have the courage to take a step, right?

Right. So it's like not only are you helping yourself, but that other person that's helping you is getting a gain from that and in recovery, we say you can't keep what you have unless you give it away and it's that concept of helping the next person along helps you to keep that Yeah, and that's a beautiful way to, you know, to really turn this trash into treasure.

And, and, you know, as they say, because that's essentially why I started this movement through the Dad Nation, is because I'm like, I get what happened to me, fine, but if I can turn that around and use it to help men restore their relationships with their spouses, to end these generational cycles, to connect more powerfully with their spouse, with their kids, with, you know, to be focused and confident and all those different then that's a life worthy of imitation for me, you know, and that's what I want, that's what I want to be about and that's my version of really taking some of that trauma and repurposing it and bringing it into alignment to serve my future and to give back and to serve others the most powerful way I know how.

Can I ask you a couple of questions? Because you mentioned sort of falling into some bad habits and you and I haven't talked a lot about this. I don't know to what extent or anything, but it sounds like From what you said, you were successful to some degree in career leadership, that kind of thing, but not doing great at home, which is the case of probably most of the people that we see and deal with. I don't know how far your habits got, but most of the people we see, I would say, fall into that highly functional having an addiction. And one of the things that gets in their way is thinking, I'm successful in this area, this area, this area. I don't possibly have a problem. So what was it for you that made you come to terms with there was some things you had to change? Now, I'm not saying came to terms you had an addiction, but came to terms with, no, this is a problem, I've got to address it?

My wife saying that she was gonna leave. You know, I'd like to say that I came to some profound moment of wisdom and inspiration, and it didn't take any kind of moment of desperation, but at the end of the day, it was change now or lose everything, you know.

Let me ask you this then. Why did you care if she was gonna leave? And the reason I say that is because for most of the people we see, the relationship between the two people has gotten so bad that honestly, the person is thinking, thank God. Like, like, they're really— because it's gotten to that level of not goodness. So for you, what was it that made you determined to not let that happen?

Yeah, for me, you know, the real key, you know, my 2 turning points was one, the fight. You know, I tell people all the time, it was a fight and a funeral. You know, the one was the fight with my wife. You know, we were 3 years in and, and, uh, struggled for 3 years. And then that was what happened. I got let go of a senior leadership position, and that's what caused me to spiral into, you know, gaining the weight and getting into debt and, you know, doing drugs and all those things to sort of cope. And I went into a dark place and everything began to erode. So it all started from one big, big blowup where my wife was like, I've had enough. And then a week later was that funeral that I was talking about, and where the minister— you know, it was this feeling. I was asked to sing at this funeral, and it was about 2,000 people there. Very, very well-known philanthropic man. And that the minister wrapped up the funeral with asking a question: are you living a life worthy of imitation? If you were to die today, would you be proud of the legacy that you left? And for me, I didn't have an answer for that. Well, I did have an answer. My answer was like, nobody, nobody would want this life. I'm not living a life worthy of imitation. If I were to die today, nobody would say I want that.

It's a moment of honesty. A moment of honest self-reflection.

And that is the key— honesty. Beginning with the end in mind, right? Am I truly living the life that I want? Here was my question: what's point of this wealth and this influence if this Christmas I'm going to be sitting around the Christmas tree alone, right? And I'd have no one to share it with. And so I think as a man, especially as men, there is this duality where, where we're succeeding at work and we're powerful at work, but we come home and the same rules don't apply. And we keep trying to like make the work stuff apply at home, and we treat our spouses like employees or, you know, things like that. And so what happens is it eats us alive because we know at the end of the that we're not doing well at home. And we're again going back to the masculine essence. We're driven by accomplishments, by excellence, by mission. And so we know, if we're honest with ourselves, that our mission at home— we're not doing well, we're not excellent. And that's the, that's the anxiety and the stress and the frustration that keeps men awake at night. It's the man that I am today and the man that I know I could be if I really went all in. And in that gap, that's where all that tension lies. And that's kind of where I do the work to help men close that gap and become that man, but it all starts with honesty, and we lie to ourselves all the time. And so that's why these traumatic experiences wake us up, because it presents a truth that we no longer can avoid. When your wife says, hey, I will leave you, or the doctor says, hey, you just had a heart attack, change something or you're gonna die, or my— you know, you name it, there is this truth that you just can't get away from, right? And it forces you to make decision. Right?

Right.

That was my experience.

It's that moment of clarity. Let me, let's take you back to you were in the not great mindset. Okay. There's this deep down feeling of I'm not living up to at least this one aspect of life. And then I find that there's, so that's like a shame component. And then there's this other thing that happens as a way to deal with that shame, defensiveness, defense mechanisms. What were some of the things that you were thinking or maybe saying out loud, but at least thinking to yourself? To deal with that shame that was keeping you stuck? Like, for example, I'll give you an example of what I mean. One of the things I call it, I'm a grown-ass man. This is not a saying for this thought. I'm a grown-ass man. I work hard. I take care of, pay all these bills. I deserve XYZ, whatever, my free time to play video games, to drink a beer, whatever it is. What were some of those defensive thought processes that you were having that was blocking you from being able to get honest with yourself.

Yeah, at one point I was a pastor, and, you know, before I went into that spiral, and I literally cared for people for a living. I literally listened to people for a living. And my wife would say to me, you don't listen, you don't care, all you care about is your job, your career, you know. And I would say to her, it's literally my job to care for people. I'm not the problem. I, I'm very good at caring for people. I can lead people all day. I'm not the problem. And so it was a lie I taught myself. I told myself because it made me feel better, right? I pushed off the blame. That was one defense that I used.

And what were you telling yourself, if you, if you don't mind telling us, what were you telling yourself about why she was the problem? I'm not saying it's the truth, but at the time we have these defensive thoughts, right? Because we talk a lot about this on our, in our content. What were you telling yourself about her? How is that triggering her to respond to you? Like, tell me about that feedback loop that happens.

I love this. I love this. So her dad is such a soft, loving, kind, sweet man who's in tune with his emotions and would sit with her, you know, when she was growing up, would cry with her, like you name it. Very, very in touch with his emotions, which is powerful. Um, not me. I was a rhino. I was— I didn't grow up in that environment. It was like, hey, when you were born, I told you I loved you, and if anything changes, I'll tell you otherwise, but that's about it. Right? And so for me, I told myself, well, your frame for what a man is is broken because that's not what a man is.

Unreasonable expectation.

You have an unreasonable expectation because that was your understanding of what a man is. Well, that's not your reality, and that's actually not what most men are like. So I'm right, you're wrong.

Okay, you have an unreasonable standard. Maybe even you were like coddled or something like that, and now, now you expect that from me. I'm just trying to put myself in your position, think That's what I would be thinking.

That's what I honestly—

oh my gosh, your daddy coddled you and now you want hand-holding for everything. That's what I would—

Yeah, I— and I thought, you're weak because look at me in my positions of influence. I'm strong. I've, I've fixed things. I problem solve. Look at the career I've built, the, you know, you name it. Why can't you just come rise up to where I am, right?

Yeah, you're the only one that seems to be having a problem with me. Yeah, everyone else thinks I'm great, right? It's you. So you're thinking this, you may or may not be saying this in arguments or whatever, but how's that influence in how your energy is towards her, how you're interacting with her, the dynamic you're bringing?

Bitter, resentful, frustrated, checked out. I began to become apathetic.

So it's like 100%.

And this is what happened. I withdrew because I did not understand. So I withdrew and I focused even more on what I'm good at because I was good at work. So I spent more time there because that made sense to me. And so I spent less time where I really needed to do the work, which made the relationship deteriorate even more, which meant that when I came home, I wanted to escape even more. So I drank more, I smoked more, I fill in the blank more. And what happened was I became incredibly apathetic, and I was a shell of a human being at home.

Eventually it was a little bit of self-fulfilling prophecy on her end because she's saying you only care about work, and there was some truth in that, right? And so you're both stuck in that cycle. So when you're withdrawing and you're distracting yourself with other things and you're disconnected, how's that causing her to react?

Well, she's, she's got a combination of sadness and helplessness and anger.

This isn't—

she's like, this is not, this is not what I signed up for. This is not what even I know of a man to be. And because she's thinking she's just as— well, she's just as right in her mind because her experience of the masculine is this thing that's totally different than me. So that's her truth, right? And so she's like, I married a broken man, you know? And I'm like, well, no, no, no, I'm not broken. You're broken, right? And so you just, you get pinned against each other instead Instead of actually doing the deep work and saying, hey, what, what's going on here? Let's maybe observe my family of origin, your family of origin, my attachment style, your attachment style, my love languages, your love languages. I mean, we talk about tools all day, but there was just a massive disconnect that caused this crazy cycle in the spiral. And so she felt misunderstood, she felt unheard, she felt unsafe sometimes, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And the only option Right.

And you probably felt misunderstood and unheard. Uh, you've probably felt those same things.

Yeah.

They should go first. They should take the first step, right? It doesn't matter who takes the first step, right? It doesn't. Just so, in fact, I think if you're watching this video, then Mitchell and I are telling you, you're the one. You've been selected. You're taking the first step, right? Because now you have the information. So tag your ex, right? Instead of getting out, well, I'll do that when they do this. We got to get out of that power struggle, realize we're in this together as a family.

Yeah.

And I'm going to take the step I need to take to make this better, not I'm going to wait for them to take the step.

Yeah. You know, and I would respectfully, for anyone who has that question or has that— makes that statement, you know, well, they need to go first, I would ask you, how's that working for you?

Right.

You know what I mean?

You've been waiting a while, right?

What's more expensive, your pride or a divorce lawyer? Your pride or your sobriety? You know, you name it, fill in the blank. That's a juvenile argument. Like, well, she said it first. Or, you know, in the playground, you know what I mean? She did that to me first. I need— I mean, come on, let's— right, exactly. Let's understand that we have to take ownership and we have to make the first move. And that's not weakness, that's strength, that's wisdom, you know? So that's huge.

And the, the great thing about it is it may be hard to make that first move because it may— you may still be mad, you may still be sullen, but once you start shifting your attitude towards them, they start shifting it towards you, and it becomes easier and easier and easier. Now we've got momentum going in the right direction.

Well, and it's no different than anything else. It's no different than reclaiming your fitness, you know, starting to stop eating, you know, garbage food or exercising or, you know, in any other area of life. That first step is never— is always hard and it's gonna be a while before you see results, you know?

Uh-huh.

And then you're gonna hit the middle of this journey and it's gonna suck again for a little bit. It's Cantor's Law. Have you ever heard of it?

No, I don't think I have.

So Cantor's Law just states that things get messy in the middle. Like there's a middle point where everything gets harder because when you start something, you're motivated. You're, you know, you're excited about it, and then all of a sudden that novelty wears off, the passion wears off, and then you hit the messy middle, and it's like, why am I doing this? You know, but it's before you get the skills and the, the consistency, and again, to build that confidence, that self-rapport, stacking wins, whatever you want to call it. Before you get to that point, there is this middle chunk, and that's where it always gets the hardest.

Mm-hmm.

And so Cantor's Law says anything that— any new thing you try to do, there's going to be that moment. And so the best thing you can do is anticipate, yeah, this is gonna be tough for a little bit, but we're all gonna take our patience pills, we're gonna love each other, we're gonna practice grace, we're gonna, you know what I mean, all those different things. And we're gonna understand it sometimes it might get a bit worse before it gets better, right?

I was just thinking as you were saying, you know, it's gonna take time, we're talking about the relationship piece of the different aspects of life you can work on, you know, maybe it's your fitness, your finances, whatever. I think you can actually see an influence change in the relationship piece faster than any other piece. I mean, if you just change your attitude today, it might not fix everything, but you'll get an immediate different attitude back, usually within probably an hour or within a few days at least, which is faster than you can see results in other areas. I think relationally, you shift, they shift.

Within one conversation, yes, you can see a significant change. It's amazing how responsive your spouse will be to a softened heart.

Right. And a lot of times people in early recovery, you know, they really struggle with, oh my God, they're never going to trust me. They always bring up my past. They're never going to let it down. And I think that comes from that need of they're feeling unsafe. So when they're saying that to you, recognizing that they're not really trying to hold your past over you, they're just, they just are saying to you, I need you to help me feel safe in this moment. And then you can think of the right thing to say instead of feeling defensive, instead of saying that was in the past, I don't want to talk about it, you know.

And you know, a good— I'm a big fan of prefacing conversations. And so a great thing to say before you're going to have a sensitive conversation in any of these areas we're talking about— and, and this is key for men because again, we want to appear strong, we don't want to appear weak, you know, all those things— we just say something like, hey honey, this is tough conversation for me to have, and I might get this wrong, I might say the wrong words, but I'm trying my best, I promise. And would you have grace for me? Because I've been really thinking about this and it means a lot to me. And so I'm going to try to say this, but please extend grace if maybe I don't use the right words. I'm really trying my the best. You know, something along those lines. I guarantee you, man, if you have that conver— if you preface the conversation with your partner like that, right, their heart will soften to you because they're going to know that it's gonna be hard to be mad at that.

Like, how are you gonna— how are you gonna have attitude back with that?

You're approaching it with humility. And so often we don't— we don't do that. We just go straight in, right?

We call it the— the skill we call it, and I took this from someone else, but it's called accusations audit. So it's that I might not get this right, or I'm probably overthinking this, or I might be being too uptight about it, or, you know, Once you lead with that humility, it triggers humility in the other person.

Absolutely.

Because it triggers safety, right? Like, I'm not— this is not an attack, right?

Well, and, and, you know, when I was talking about with women, uh, seen, heard, and safe, you know, under the, under the component of safety, emotional safety is a big one. You know, do— does your wife feel like she's safe to talk about her feelings around you without you trying to fix them or belittle them or, you know, invalidate them? Do you wholeheartedly listen and not try a fix and really validate their emotions and connect with them. I mean, that's a huge component of this, right? But so often we don't do that as men. We're not really great at that, right? And so that's— I would say that's a huge component, the, the, uh, emotional safety, right?

Absolutely. Now, you were mentioning earlier, I think, that you have some kind of like connection code guide or something if people are trying to restructure the dynamics in a relationship.

Yeah, so, you know, it's just called The Connection Code. It's a free PDF for your listeners today. I would love for you to just hit the link and download it Because really what it is, is 50 of my favorite questions that are designed to spark the fun and bring the fire back in your relationship. Now, this is really helpful because of the fact that men struggle to connect on an emotional level. And we know, you know, with women, they need to be connected emotionally before they can connect physically. Men are the opposite. We want to be connected with physically before we can connect emotionally, right?

Right.

And so this is a simple list of questions, and it covers everything from like your dreams Some fun stuff, some intimacy stuff, like you name it. So I tell people all the time, I'm like, whether you're going out on a date night or maybe you put the kids down, pour, you know, grab a coffee or tea, you know, whatever, and sit down and take 2 or 3 questions off the list, this list, and just ask. And, and it's, it's designed to unravel and help you connect with your wife in a powerful way on an emotional level and to draw you closer, uh, in relationship.

I love that. I'm thinking, you know, when you're, you're married a long time like I am, and you know, you're, you're on the date night, you're eating dinner, and then you're just like silent. You're just like, I can't even think of what to talk about. This is when you whip out one of these questions, right? This is the perfect moment to get into something meaningful that matters.

Yeah, because what happens, Amber, is I say this all the time to my clients. A lot of them, like I said, are, you know, in business, entrepreneurs, VPs, things like that. I'm like, your date nights end up just feeling like board meetings, just with wine, you know, or whatever, right?

Without wine in our case. But go ahead.

Yeah, without wine, sorry. But that's what happens, right? And, and you, you end up talking about information. Okay, well, where do the kids need to go? What time do they need to be picked up? What needs to be done here? That it's strategy. It's a board meeting. It's not a date.

It's a team meeting, right? And it's not a connection.

And so these questions get you out of that cycle, right?

Right.

And you can, you can make up a rule. I mean, have fun with it. Say, you know what, the only questions we're going to ask each other are ones from this list, and we're not going to ask each other— we're not going to talk shop or nothing else, you know what I mean? It will transform your relationship.

I promise. It creates emotional intimacy, and getting someone to answer these questions makes them feel seen and heard. So if you're, if you ask these questions, just the fact that you're asking it makes someone feel seen and heard.

Yeah, they're so fun. Even like one real simple one, when I asked my wife, she's like, this is amazing. Uh, it's just like, explain, walk me through your perfect day from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. It's like the fire comes back and I was like, oh, anything? You know, my wife was like, well, I'll go to the spa, you know, sleep in, get a facial, you know. But the great thing is for us as men, it's really tactical because we could take all that and use it. Like, okay, well, and then when we plan our next date, we're gonna do some of these things, you know, or, you know, fill in the blank. So you can take that information because again, mission-minded, turn it into a mission.

Oh yeah, I'm all about the strategy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, I mean, tons of really great questions that you otherwise would never think about asking, right?

And I haven't seen this, but my guess is based on the examples you're giving that these are questions that can create connection in really any kind of relationship. It doesn't even necessarily have to be husband-wife. Like, if you ask people these questions These are things that people think about, but they don't have anywhere else to talk about. And so getting someone to explore these things with you is going to help them feel connected, seen, heard, and vice versa, because it usually becomes a two-way conversation.

Yeah, like absolutely. There's a section on intimacy and all that, but there's other sections for lots of different other relationships.

You can leave the intimacy ones out if it's a different relationship, but the other ones—

exactly.

There we go. I like it. Okay, I'll put that— I'll put that link in the description of this video and also in the comments so people can get it. And then If people want to hear more from you, where can they— where's the best place to do that?

I'm basically building up my YouTube. I mean, it's a new thing that I put a bunch of time and energy into. So all the Dad Nation podcast episodes go there. I also upload weekly nuggets of wisdom and stuff that I work with my one-on-one clients on, frameworks, all that stuff. So you can go to Dad Nation Co on YouTube there. You can listen to the Dad Nation podcast, which is on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and then also YouTube. Tons of stuff there. Like I said, I have listeners all over over the— all over the world and regularly get emails from wives and women saying, hey, this breakthrough or this strategy that I learned helped me break through to my husband. And so, right, you know, it's called the Dad Nation Podcast, but you know, if you're a woman and you want to connect with your partner and understand him on a different level, then certainly there's a lot of value in it for you as well. So that's where you can find me, or honestly, just Google Dad Nation Co. You'll see me. So you—

I was listening to one of your recent episodes, and I can't remember the lady's name, but it was— she was talking about— it was something about kids need Connection, not control. And I was like, man, that's good stuff. And if you want to raise human beings that are better at this when they get there into the relationship, that's definitely a direction you need to go. So if you're a parent, you need to check the episode out.

Yeah, that was Katherine Sellery. Yeah, so I bring in like doctors, specialists, experts from all around the world, and we basically talk about anything that would challenge you as a man, husband, father. So parenting, marriage, fitness, you know, money, you name it, We get into it all, you know, and if you're looking for something that's real tactical and you want to kind of get boots on the ground and take action today, you know, I'll give you the link, Amber, to just line up a quick strategy call and be happy to jump on a call and just talk about, you know, how I can help you in a more powerful way, like one-to-one or a group context. I have something called the Dad Nation Coalition, which is a group, a community of men who are like-minded on the exact same mission, and we support one another and hold each other high. So anyways, you can find all that stuff in the show notes, but, uh, would love to connect, whatever that looks like.

Yeah. And I will put all that down there. And one thought I was— the last thought is if you watch this because you're looking for recovery, people always say, what should I do? They don't want to go to 12-step. This kind of group is— it counts in my opinion as recovery because you're connecting yourself to people that are working on being better. So in my mind, if you don't love the whole addiction recovery support group, but you want to be connected to community and people trying to go in the right direction, something like this This is perfect.

Uh, yeah, and I would say, Amber, several of my clients have been in recovery and are in recovery. One of my first clients was an alcoholic, and he's been sober for at least 2 years now. It's powerful. So absolutely, yeah, I agree.

It was funny when you were saying, uh, Mitchell, sometimes men have a hard time even thinking of the word success. I was talking to this wife recently within the last few weeks, and she— we were talking about her husband and what his personality type and And she was saying some of these things about you just can't get them to communicate. And I was saying one of the things, because I work mostly with men in my practice. And so I said, one of the things, there's a few techniques I do that make it a lot easier, but one of them is I say, give them multiple choice. So instead of saying, how are you feeling? You can say, is it more like this or more like this or more like that? And either one of those things will resonate or it'll make their brain think, oh, it's actually, no, it's not those things. It's this or whatever. So I was like, give them multiple choice. That's one of my techniques or whatever, because it helps to spark and bring that into focus.

I use a card of emojis, which sounds juvenile, but every single guy is like, oh, that one, that one is the one that I feel right now. But you ask them, tell me the word, I have no idea. But the imagery, right, it's tactical, they can reach out, visual, you know, it's hugely powerful. Or, you know, the Hoffman Institute has a feelings list that you can download and just kind of scroll through and find the one that you're feeling, right?

Right.

If you're listening and you're a male, or if you're listening and you know a male, which is 100% of you, understand that this isn't— doesn't mean they're broken, there's something wrong with them. This is just a part of the male expression and being a masculine man in a world that's, you know, struggling. And how to communicate, not just how we feel, but even how to communicate to connect with our spouses is difficult. And how to even help our partners process their emotions is difficult. That's why we revert so quickly to trying to fix things. We struggle to have the capacity to even hold space for those emotions. Does Does that make sense?

Totally. I was— when my son and I were having this conversation just this past weekend, I was telling him one of the things I said— I'm not a guy, but one of the things I think that's probably hard for men is that these days, women, we still want men to be protectors and providers. We want them to be tough. We want them to be the one that gets up when there's the scary sound at night and to kill the spiders and do all the things. But now we also want you to be emotionally available and empathetic and nurturing and do all the things. I feel like that that's unfair for men because we want them to be able to do it all. What do you think about that?

Oh, Amber, I'm so glad we're friends. Yeah, you know, I think it's— it can be tough, and I think the word masculinity has gotten a bad rap. And, you know, the term toxic masculinity is thrown around. I would say I don't agree with the word toxic, but I would replace that with the word immature. Immature masculinity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it is. When we think about what's toxic. If you actually replace that, a lot of those same qualities are just a lack of maturity, lack of wisdom in men. And I think maturely masculine men understand the breadth of what this is. But I'll say this, you know, Amber, we are wired different in the context of our masculine essence and feminine essence. And so if you'll allow me real quickly, a real obvious time we see this is Super Bowl parties. For example, when you go to a Super Bowl party, generally speaking, I'm talking generals, Right? Obviously there are exceptions, but where do you see all the men during a Super Bowl party?

Uh, sitting on the couch and in the recliners, leaning up in their chairs like on the edge of their seat.

Watching the TV. Sitting on the couch watching the TV, right? Where do you see the women?

In the kitchen hovering around the snacks, having conversation.

In the kitchen hovering around the snacks, having conversation. Now let's keep that image in our mind. The masculine in our essence is driven by a mission, by purpose, by excellence, you know, having a clear calling. We're drawn to people, we're drawn to things like that. And so that's why men love sports. That's why we love staring at the TV and watching some of the best athletes in the world do what they're best at. There's something very masculine about it and connects with us. They have a strong sense of mission and purpose. The feminine essence is driven by emotions, by nurturing, intuition, relationships. That's why we see them maybe gathered around the island sipping a glass of wine. Hey, how's things in your marriage? How are the kids? They're nurturing the relationships. We are wired completely different, and that's okay, right?

Yeah, that's a good thing.

That's a beautiful thing. Yeah, but if we're not careful, we let that wiring say— give us a reason to say, well, we're just too different and we're not compatible. Well, no, it's not that you're not compatible. It's just you're looking at your wiring and you're choosing to let it pull you apart versus asking, how can I— we grow together and what can we learn and how can we use these essences to serve one another powerfully in this relationship, right?

I love it. I could let myself— we could get on this men-women talk. I could go— I could go far into here. But let me bring you back into this conversation about— this is just a curious question I have because you work with men. I mostly work with men. And one of the things I've learned is funny is like, if you talk to women about their husbands, they have a list of complaints. I mean, like a mile long, right? My experience of talking to men, they only have one complaint about their wives, maybe 2. Sometimes it's they don't have sex with me enough. That's not even usually it. The big complaint is they're too critical. of me, right? So you got this dynamic that's going on where it's like, I'm trying to get you— the woman's trying to get you to change all these things, and the man's like, well, you're just critical of me. And so they start shutting down, giving less and less and less. How does one— well, first of all, is that your experience? Does that fit with what you hear from men, or you felt? And then how do you get out of that cycle?

Oh man, that's such a good question, Amber. Yeah, okay, well, if you're listening, you're a woman, understand that a man's 2 basic needs are to feel respected and competent. Okay, these 2 things. And whether it's time, whether it's their skill, whether it's their ability to provide, whether it's their ability to be a father or a husband, you name it— if you were to trace back over the last however long you've been together, and every single time your husband has been upset with you, like, not an annoyance but like a deep hurt, there's a high, high probability he felt either disrespected or incompetent by you.

You're hitting one of those buttons. buttons. Probably not on purpose.

Not on purpose, of course not. But then, you know, a woman's— in my, in my experience and what I coach men is, a woman's 3 basic needs are to feel seen, to feel heard, and to feel safe, right? And we could break all those down, but at the end of the day, a lot of men don't make their wives feel seen or heard, and sometimes not safe. And safe could be relationally, emotionally, physically, mentally, you know, you name it. But what happens is they don't feel loved, they don't feel cherished, seen, acknowledged, all those things. And so they begin to lose respect for their husbands or make them feel incompetent because their needs aren't getting met. And then so the man feels disrespected or incompetent, and the last thing he wants to do is love his wife and cherish her and respect her and all those different things to make her feel seen, heard, you know, all that. Which then, you know, and we call it the crazy cycle, and this is what couples get caught in, right? But the most encouraging thing you can do to your husband, or you can say to your husband, is, I believe in you. You're a Powerful man. I love how much you, you know, you work, how hard you work for this family. You know, fill in the blank. That is— if you were to ask a room, and I do this all the time, Amber, if you were to ask a room of 100 men, what would you rather hear, I love you or I respect you? 90%, over 90% of them are going to raise their hand when you say I respect you, right? Most of the men would much rather hear that than even I love you, because that's what matters to us. We want to know that we're respected in our home. We want to that we're competent. And maybe, you know, we haven't necessarily lived that way. Maybe we've made mistakes, but we can break that cycle by asking each other that question and having a sobering, honest conversation. And so if you're, if you're a man and you're listening, have that conversation with your wife and say, hey honey, how can I make you feel more heard? How can I make you feel more seen? How can I make you feel more safe? And trust me, you ask her that, she's going to have some words to share.

She got her list. Hold on, hold on, I got my notebook. Let me get it out.

Yeah. And then the win And then ask your husbands or your partners, how can I make you feel like more competent in your area, in the areas that you serve? How can I make you feel more respected? What are ways that I've— that you felt disrespected by me? Now it takes humility, and it takes— you gotta, you gotta eat a giant slice of humble pie, right? Because it's going to sting a little bit. But so let's just make sure we're all fed, we're all well rested, it's a good time of day, you know, whatever.

Right.

We've got time, our phones are put down and we're honestly with open ears listening to one another. And if you can give accurate, honest, truthful answers, per other person can receive that well and actually take that advice and get actionable about it, you can transform the relationship. But though for the men, that's the 2 things that we, that we struggle with the most.

Thank you, Mitchell. This has been awesome. Love it.

Thank you for having me on the show, Amber. You know, I'll leave your listeners with this quote that's been resonating with me lately, and it's that time is the only currency we spend without knowing the remaining balance. And so we have no idea how much time we have left on this earth. So it's not lost on me how important our time is. And so I humbly just— I'm so appreciative of your time. And for all your listeners, thank you for listening to this conversation today.

All right, thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.