Why You Still Don’t Feel Close After They Get Sober

I'm so excited to share this special video with you. Matt and Sherri from the Untoxicated Podcast are here to cover a very special and slightly sensitive topic. It's one that I get questions about pretty regularly. They'll be exploring how to restore emotional and physical intimacy after addiction. Matt is in recovery himself, and together they've navigated the ups and downs of building a relationship in early recovery. In this video, they're going to be sharing about their personal journey and offering insights that any couple can use When trying to reconnect after addiction has wreaked havoc on your relationship. Trust me, you don't want to miss this one.

So this guy sitting next to me is Matt Salas. He's a behavioral health researcher and a writer. He has a master's degree in sexual health and over a decade of experience in addiction and recovery.

This is my wife, Sherry Salas. She is the hero of our story. I had to do all the research and education just to learn what she has always known. Together, we are leading experts on alcoholism and intimacy in committed partnerships, and we are the co-hosts of the Untoxicated Podcast. Sherry, our research has revealed that 95% of couples in recovery from alcohol use disorder also suffer from sexual desire discrepancy. Would you explain what sexual desire discrepancy is to our audience?

Sure. Well, I think really the nuts and bolts of it is someone has a higher sex drive than the other. So meaning someone wants it more than the other person does.

And in some cases, that other person not only wants it less, but they want it not at all. Yes, zero. Can you relate to that? We, we say 95% of people who suffer from alcohol use disorder in a relationship— I used to be an alcoholic, so We fall into that category. You say that 95% of couples suffer from sexual desire discrepancy.

Yeah, I mean, there— you have a higher libido, you have a higher sex drive, you would like to have sex more often. In your addiction days, you wanted to have sex for connection, so it was definitely a bigger issue then with the discrepancy because it led to a lot of arguments because you didn't understand why I was not interested in having sex the same amount as you, you would then turn to alcohol to soothe your ego, I suppose, from being turned down.

Yeah.

But even now we do, but we have a much more respectful relationship and education and knowledge about that it's okay to have that discrepancy difference and still how to maintain a healthy sexual relationship.

I think that respect is key because I think prior to having a mutually respectful relationship, you just thought I was a perpetually horny who wanted to use your body for my own satisfaction.

Yeah.

You can validate that?

Yeah.

Yeah, I thought so. Well, we have learned through research and our own personal experience techniques that are proven to increase sexual satisfaction in couples by 40%. Both sides of the sexual desire discrepancy increasing their sexual satisfaction by 40%. 40% is a big number. And we wanna help you to understand what we did and what others are doing to increase sexual satisfaction by that big number.

Mm-hmm.

We'll get to that, but first, I have long said that especially in active alcoholism and in early sobriety, that physical intimacy, sex, made me feel loved and connected to you like nothing else. Now, there's a couple of parts to that. Orgasm gave me the dopamine hit when my reward system was hijacked from alcoholism. Part of Being in active addiction is that the dopamine, the serotonin, the things that are released as part of our pleasure center, our reward system, they are only released for certain activities instead of a broad range of activities. Alcohol does, in my case, most of the hijacking. And so my reward system would wait for alcohol to release dopamine, but it would also release it for sex, which meant there were very few things in my life that were giving me that dopamine hit, alcohol being one of them. sex being another. So that made me perpetually interested in sex in a way that was demeaning and unfortunate. But there was also— it wasn't just that. There was also a physical connection for me, and I could feel that physical manifestation of love. That was a form of connection and safety and relief to me. I think it was different for you though. I don't think sex— Especially when I was actively addicted and in early sobriety, ever gave you that physical manifestation of love, am I right?

Yeah, I think because the relationship had deteriorated in so many different areas that it didn't feel loving at all. It felt more chore-like. It felt like an obligation. I just didn't understand at the time that I was really craving an emotionally safe space to be vulnerable, to turn into you with issues that I was having instead of turning away from you because you were the biggest issue. So I think for me, I felt less desirable towards you, and the way I viewed your desire towards me felt very off-putting. I felt almost sort of disgusted by that. I thought, how can you treat someone that you love and desire and you say you respect the way you do?

For decades, I begged you to get into it. I begged you to take an active interest in physical intimacy and sex with me, and on occasions you could get yourself there. You could get over that hump and you could be present and involved. Can you talk about what that was like? Did that occur naturally for you? What was that like?

I mean, I hate to say that it was work to relax, but it was work to relax. It took a lot of concentration. And normally I'm thinking about times that I remember, and it's probably the same ones that you're thinking of. It was when we were like away and we didn't have responsibilities in the house. And maybe the way you behaved, like you weren't overdrinking and overindulging and acting like an asshole. were on your, like, best behavior, maybe because there was other circumstances going on in the background that made you, you know, behave a certain way earlier in the evening, and then that continued into the— to the night and the bedroom. So, but it took a lot of work, took a lot of concentration and deep breathing to try to relax and enjoy it.

Nothing's more sexy than concentration when it comes to getting jiggy with it. Our research has revealed that 39% of couples suffering from alcohol use disorder are sexless or near sexless. That's compared to 16% of general population couples. So more than twice as many couples when experiencing alcohol use disorder are sexless or near sexless. So that's one of the directions it can go. The other direction that it can go is what we just described, where yes, sex is continuing, but it's not easy. It's not natural. It takes concentration. There's a lot of frustration involved, and sexual desire discrepancy certainly is just pouring fuel on all of that. I I had it backwards back then, Sherry, begging you to do something unnatural. Instead of begging, I should have been trying to earn your desire, earn those encounters in a way that wouldn't have required concentration for you as much.

Yeah. So like today we'll explain what we've learned, like the 4 components of the relationship recovery from the alcohol use disorder. And I think 2 of those are like foundational and 2 of those are built on the foundation.

So almost like layers.

Yeah.

So boom, foundation. This is what you can do to build on. Great. Let's talk about the foundation first. Resentment processing and emotional safety. Resentment processing is something that we talk a lot about. Trauma doesn't just go away. It has to be dealt with. You can push it down, you can ignore it, but it's going to continue to pester you and it's going to have negative consequences for your life. So when we talk about resentment processing, the resentment that exists in an alcoholic relationship, once sobriety takes hold, is dealing with those traumatic experiences from the past and addressing them. It's not so much, I mean, sometimes it can be about an apology, sometimes it can be about forgiveness, but more than anything, it's about acknowledgement of a lived experience. I know, Sherry, for you, a big part of resentment processing is Since I was often intoxicated when the traumatic experience took place, my memory was foggy at best. And so rather than me telling you, you didn't remember it right, it wasn't that bad, just acknowledging your experience and your memory as being what actually happened to you, that was a huge component of resentment processing. Am I right?

That's correct.

Yeah. Another big part of it is being able to talk about traumas of the past without them re-traumatizing Especially the perpetrator. In my case, as the former drinker, if I could sit and listen to you share an experience that caused you emotional pain, caused you resentment, and not defend and deflect and downplay— if I could just sit and listen and acknowledge and say, that must have been really hard for you— that was a huge turning point. And that's what resentment processing looks like, doesn't it?

Yeah.

There's a tactical component to this too. Um, you know, you can't just be sitting there watching the game on a Saturday afternoon and all of a sudden your partner sits down and says, I want to tell I'm telling you about the trauma! We have for years now scheduled weekly meetings where we sit down and we process resentments. We both know it's coming. We try to keep the topics limited. You bring a resentment, maybe I bring a resentment. We don't try to solve all the world's problems in one sitting. We try to be really good listeners as opposed to deflecting and denying and demeaning.

Mm-hmm.

We try to listen and try to hear what the other person says. Both of us have a chance, and then, you know, we might wrap that up and move on and leave other resentments for processing at a later time. But a scheduled— we do it weekly, keeping it simple. Those are all keys to resentment processing, wouldn't you say?

Yeah. And just keep in mind that even if you have brought a resentment to process, an issue to work through, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to happen in that one conversation. It may have to get revisited. It may have to to get spoken about. They might— your partner might need time to think about and reflect, not deflect, but reflect upon what you said and then bring it to the next conversation to discuss further. Maybe to have curiosity about it or like misunderstanding about it that they can like kind of air out with you.

And even if you're the one carrying the resentment that's trying to work through the resentment, that might not happen in one sitting. You might have to come back to that again. And what I've learned is, as a person who is often listening to your resentments, I look at that as a blessing now. If she keeps bringing up the same thing over and over again, that isn't a sign that Sherry's broken and that she can't figure her shit out and that she, you know, needs mental health, you know, treatment. Although we all need mental health treatment, and mental health treatment's a great thing, but it isn't a sign of her dysfunction. It's a sign that that is the pain point, and I should be considered a blessing that she's showing me where it hurts so that I can help her work through it. Part— try to be part of the solution. Resentment processing is a big foundational step. The other big foundational step is emotional safety. Emotional safety is creating an environment for the whole family, not just for Sherry and I, where people feel safe to express themselves and live not in nervous system activation. So where we can get off of those eggshells, where we can get off those pins and needles, and we can feel comfortable. It's about treating my partner with The respect that I treated you with when we were dating. That's a big key for me, a big, like, little cue.

Or perhaps a new level of respect that wasn't there before.

Yeah, good point, good point. Yeah, I like to think of it though, if I say this thing that's on the tip of my tongue, if we didn't know each other very well, if we weren't married, if we weren't financially tied together, would I be risking Sheri turning on her heels and being out of here? And so treating it like we're dating, finding that new level of respect is a really important part of emotional safety because we shouldn't treat our partners worse the deeper into the relationship we get. If we treat the respect we gave each other when we were dating as baseline and even try to grow and improve from there, that's a really good idea. So some of the tangible things I'm talking about, here's a great example: not yelling at the TV, whether it's politics or sports or you aren't happy with who won the Best Supporting Actor Oscar, whatever, whatever your, your, your stuff is. Yelling at the TV creates a level of anxiety, or yelling at social media, or yelling at politics, yelling at the things happening out there in the world. It just raises the anxiety level in the house. So am I allowed to have a negative reaction? Sure. But why would I bring everyone in my family along with me? Why do I want to stand there and be upset about foreign policy and make everyone else anxious in my household. So that's a big one, not raising the anxiety in the house. Giving full attention to each other. Sherri, when you come to me and you've got something you want to talk about, how does it feel when I just— I'm looking at you while I'm keeping into my laptop at the same time?

Well, it feels like you're not paying attention and giving me your full attention. Also, we have learned that if I see you working, I'll say, hey, can we take a break? Can you take a break, you know, now or in 5 minutes? Whatever, I want to discuss something. So it's not that we're asking each other to stop exactly what they're doing, give 100% attention, but understanding that there will be disruptions during the day as the day goes on. And so finding a way to compromise and make that happen sooner rather than later and letting it be built up. Because sometimes there are urgent things where I have to say, hey, I need your attention now, and then you have to stop and listen and we need to formulate a plan.

But it sounds like you would prefer, rather than me Typing away and saying, yeah, go ahead, I'm listening, and trying to multitask. You would prefer to wait a little while till I can take that full undivided attention and send it your way, as opposed to, uh, trying to do 2 things at once and really doing neither of them very well. So emotional safety is having the respect of undivided attention.

Yeah, and I think that's a, that's a piece of the respect of give and take that both parties need to be an example for one another how to deal with that.

Here's a great indicator of emotional safety in your family. If your kids are around in the common spaces, if you notice your kids hanging out in the kitchen when you're making dinner, if you notice the kids in the family room, you know, when kind of work and school is done for the day and they're hanging out with you instead of in their room behind closed doors, that's a really, really good indicator that you've created an environment of emotional safety in your household. The difference between emotional safety and emotional intimacy is that emotional safety is kind of a baseline. It's not proactive. It's not trying to reach out and connect. We're going to talk about emotional intimacy in a second because that's what is built on that foundation of emotional safety. But emotional safety is just creating that foundation where people feel safe to interact with you and take that next level. So building on the foundation of emotional safety and resentment processing is emotional intimacy and non-sexual Physical intimacy. Let's start with non-sexual physical intimacy, physical touch, because I think that's the simpler one to go through. What does non-sexual physical touch look like to you? Is that me walking through the room and patting you on the ass?

No, no one ever likes that. I mean, I shouldn't say no one, but yeah, like a hug, an embrace, a touch on the shoulder, just some sort of small connection, eye contact. And just because a hug happens, it doesn't mean that it leads to sex.

Is non-sexual physical touch sexually arousing?

I mean, maybe for some it could be if you have the higher libido, but it doesn't have to turn into, and you don't have to make the other person who isn't aroused turn into it. Like, for example, like if you were to rub my back or something, you know, like for you, I think that skin-to-skin contact is a very big turn-on, but it doesn't have to turn into an arousing— it can arouse you, but it doesn't have to arouse me, and it doesn't have to turn into physical manifestation.

So for it to be safe non-sexual physical touch, Even if it arouses me, which everything arouses me, it's respect for you and the fact that it doesn't arouse you, and it— and I don't have to take it any further, right? That was a hard lesson to learn. Uh, simple but not easy, but it's an important one. And that's the kind of thing that we can build on that foundation that we talked about. Emotional intimacy is the other one. Where emotional intimacy differs from emotional safety is emotional intimacy is proactive. It's outreach. It's taking that next step. You take that emotional safety, that's repair, and you move on from that. So it's follow-up. For instance, let's say we had one of those instances where Sherry said, hey, can I get a couple of minutes of your undivided attention? And I say, yeah, give me 5 minutes to wrap this up. And we'll do that. She presents something to me. And then the next day, I ask her about it. I follow up. Hey, how did that thing go? How's your sick mom? What's up with that trouble at work? Tell me about your day. Just simple as that. And showing Sincere interest in the answer, not just throwing the question out there and doing this deal and moving on, but actually showing sincere interest. That dedicated communication is so important. Not just, yeah, tell me about it while I'm typing, or tell me about it while I'm watching this Instagram video, or tell me about it while I'm watching Put the Shovel Down, because I'm trying to learn at the same time as I hear you. Undivided attention is key. What other things fall into the category of emotional intimacy? You got any more?

Just the general, like, feeling in the house whenever there's something that comes up that's a surprise. Making sure that your reaction isn't an overreaction, that there is this calmness and this thoughtfulness about your responses with me or with the kids or with the neighbor. Say, you know, some— something has happened, and— or, you know, you're not talking about And like, like you're not talking in restaurants rudely to the servers. And, you know, it's those things that the way you're treating others as the addict makes me feel more comfortable, because those also are things that are very triggering and remind me of your alcoholic days.

To stay on the proactive side of the— this emotional safety/emotional intimacy conversation, what about if I— this is one that It was really— it was such an important lesson to learn. If I proactively want to engage with our children, if I want to go, you know, shoot hoops, or I want to go play tennis, or I want to help one of our kids work on their bike or whatever, if I proactively engage and spend time with them, that's actually an emotionally romantic thing for you. I didn't— it didn't occur to me that my engagement with the kids could actually be You know, I don't want to be gross about it, but it'd be a bit of a turn-on because you saw me spending time and giving of myself in a way toward people that are so important to you. Is that fair and safe to say?

Uh, yeah.

Yeah. Offering to help around the house, being vulnerable, just expressing myself. Now, there's a fine line here because if I come home and just dump my stuff on you every day, all day, and you are my only emotional outlet, and it starts to feel like a cumbersome burden, that's no bueno. But if I say, hey, let me tell you about something that happened to me, and I trust you with something vulnerable, the right side of emotional intimacy, wouldn't you say?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, I wanna reference a movie. I think it's Glengarry Glen Ross with Alec Baldwin. He talks about the ABCs, always be closing, some sales reference. I wanna use the ABDs, always be dating. If you think of it that way, When you're interacting with your partner, what can I say that will bring this relationship further along in a positive way than— and not in a fake way, in a genuine, authentic way. That's a great way to go through life. It might sound cumbersome, it might sound arduous and unnecessary, but I'm here to tell you, when you challenge yourself to be always be dating, it becomes a fun little kind of game to play to stay on the right side of positivity and emotional intimacy. It's a big deal. Sherri, in our 12-month intimacy intervention study of 15 couples in recovery from alcohol use disorder, when individuals indicated that they had a positive experience in their relationship with emotional intimacy, they had a 40% higher sexual satisfaction score.

Mm-hmm.

So that's— we talked about that at the beginning of the video, 40% higher sexual satisfaction. Where does that come from? It comes from emotional intimacy. It doesn't come from begging or pleading or concentration. It comes from treating our person in an emotionally intimate way. What's your experience with better emotional intimacy, Sheri, as it relates to your— you know, back to the desired discrepancy issue— as it relates to your desire and willingness for sex?

In our relationship, we had to develop this emotional safety. We weren't exactly sure what was going on and how to really label it then, but the scene had to be calm, and there needed to be more recurring incidences where you did not overreact in a bad way when I brought issues to you, that I just had to see this trust built.

Mm-hmm.

And when the emotional safety was better, then it led to that vulnerability that emotional intimacy can allow. And yes, I still have to do a little relaxation and concentration. I mean, I'm, you know, older, out of childbearing years, so there's health issues that go along with, you know, and body changes that go along with it.

Hormone stuff, stuff like that.

Hormones and things like that. And then we educated ourselves, and I felt comfortable educating with you, along with you, about these sort of situations that happen Later in life, and we have open and vulnerable conversations about that. So then it makes the sexual encounters better because you're more understanding of what I'm going through, and that I am a person that needs a little bit more time to relax and get into it. So I think that emotional safety leading to emotional intimacy and the education piece And the respect that has grown between you and I, and the respect that we have differences, has really gone a long way in helping our sexual relationship.

Was it worth the work? Would you describe it as a positive change in our relationship?

I definitely think it was worth the work. I mean, because we had tried so many things, um, to try to make the relationship sexual-wise from the beginning of your alcohol recovery stage, but then also just to kind of heal from those traumas of what happened during the active addiction. So talking about it, working on it, working through it, educating ourselves— really, I think it was worth the work for sure.

That's great. I'm glad to hear you say that. Rather than beg, plead, demand, cajole because I needed sex and I needed that physical contact, I learned to earn it. I learned to always be dating. And can't recommend that enough. It's worth a 40% increase in sexual satisfaction, is definitely worth the effort. For more information about emotional intimacy in relationships and recovery, please check out the Untoxicated podcast. Thank you for having us and keep hosting these important topics, Amber.

Thank you so much, Matt and Sherri. We really appreciate your willingness to talk so openly about this sensitive and personal topic. If you want to hear more from Matt and Sherri, you can find them on their podcast Untoxicated, and I will put a link to it in the description below.