Episode 33: Breaking Communication Barriers with Communication Coach Raele Altano

Foreign.

And welcome to episode 33 of Breaking through, the Alina Obovian podcast. In this episode, I have Raelle Altano, a communications coach, helping avoidant women speak up, find their voice, and set boundaries. Rael is huge on social media with nearly half a million followers. She found her niche several years ago by posting catchy videos on how to be a more effective communicator. In this episode, we go a lot deeper, understanding some of our cultural norms and how they work for us versus against us. The difference in how men and women communicate. What is gaslighting? How do narcissists communicate and what we can all do to better understand one another. It's so funny because we're here to talk about some pretty serious topics. But true to form, we're girls and we're thinking about how do I want my hair? Does that ever go away?

No. And why should it?

Right?

Why should it?

It's fun to be a girl.

It is.

Raell Altano, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you, Alina, for having me.

You're from New Jers. You flew in last night.

I did, I did.

I'm so honored that you could be here. I've been following your work for quite a while and it's very unique. You don't have a lot of people on social media teaching proper communication, but that's what you do.

That is. That is what I do. And it's been a journey. It's been really fun. Thank you for having me, truly.

Of course. Two more media girls love. We find each other no matter what. So let's talk about what you do exactly. How do you coach your clients? What inspired you to get into this line of work? Yes.

So coach my clients. Currently, virtually, I started with one on ones and I still continue with that format and landscape, but I'm solely expanding to group classes, monthly group classes, speaking engagements for certain companies or teams or organizations. So we're growing and I'd eventually like to build some sort of course or guide or more materials that people get people, excuse me, can use for independent learning. I got into this line of work because I love to talk. Good.

That's really good.

I've always loved to talk and connect with people. And my upbringing sometimes really made me the mediator. Not sometimes really made me the mediator. I grew up with divorced parents. They were first. They were immigrants, so I was first generation American. They didn't have a real foundation here. I was an only child, so we were just in our world and there was definitely a stigma to having Divorced parents at that age within the Armenian community. And I felt that, so I felt.

Like I did too. That's how I grew up.

Right, right. And that's a big burden to bear at a young age, especially when you don't have siblings, you don't have anyone to share it with. So I carried that from a young age. And again, mediating people, pleasing, acting like everything's okay, rush it off the rug, like you're tough, you're good. And this isn't to victimize myself in any way, but it made, it's almost.

Deflecting from the situation.

Yes, yes. And it made me outwardly confident because I, I loved connecting with people and that was almost like my happy place. Being able to meet friends at school and school was my constant. But it also brought out some negative traits too, if you will. So once I, I got through to the other side, I wanted to focus on like, okay, how can we help women speak better, feel more confident, not worry so much about tiptoeing and shrinking and people pleasing all the time. How do they find their voice and articulate things in a way that feels good to them without also actively trying to hurt someone's feelings?

So why do you feel women have this issue of communicating in a strong yet positive way?

Not all women. Not all women, but in certain immigrant households and cultures especially, and I know a lot of my followers are first generation women from all different cultures, they're taught to keep their opinions to themselves, to be non reactive, to say it's okay, sweep things under the rug. From a very young age, you think it's, it's, you might share the same experience. It's.

I do. My grandmother is Russian and she was always praised for being demure. Right. But when you think about it, why are we praising someone for not speaking up? And I always thought she was so calm and elegant, but now I realize that common elegance came at the cost of her voice. The women that come to you, who come to you in your practice, what are some of the things that they struggle with when it comes to effective communication? Great question.

Passive aggressive aggressiveness. Excuse me. In the professional place space with, especially with superiors, showcase something that they're proud of in a way that they feel good about but also makes sense. Like they feel like they second guess themselves. They stumble along the way. They feel like they black out when presenting or speaking, which to some extent, like, that's just your, your body's, your nervous system trying to protect you when you're in those high adrenaline moments. You know, sometimes the difference between how men communicate and women communicate, for example, is that like women, we innately feel like we don't have the upper hand.

We question, is it the power dynamic.

That contributes to that, the societal norms, the patriarchal society that we are in, Men innately know they have the upper hand. And that comes with a sense of confidence, sense of relaxation, like, okay, like whatever I say is going to land, it's going to be respected, will be heard. With women it's like, well, am I, am I, is something I'm saying going to be misinterpreted? Is someone going to interrupt me while I'm trying to get this thought out? Am I being too much? Am I being too, too opinionated?

Do you think that men sort of develop those qualities earlier on because they have to be a little bit more aggressive when it comes to making a living, starting a business? Especially if we're related to immigrant communities. They had to figure it out real fast on their own.

Yes.

And that's something you can give them a lot of credit for, and I certainly do, because it's not easy, especially when there's a language barrier. But on the other side of that, for women, when we feel we have to be in a supportive role, it's almost like, well, let me just bite my tongue because at the end of the day, the last thing my husband wants to hear is a nagging wife. So how do you go from being a nagging wife to being someone who expresses herself in a healthy way?

I think one of my favorite and foundational principles is the age technique. So approach it with gratitude and empathy whenever possible. Leading with, I, I know you've had a long day, but I'd love to talk about this maybe a little later on today or this week and just get some things on the table, just have an open conversation. So I, you know, I understand you may not be up for talking about this, but it's important and we should make some time for it. That empathy, like putting yourself in their shoes when possible, is a great prompt to get it going and to show.

Someone else feel seen. Exactly, yes.

Making them feel seen, feel heard. It's non combative. That's not to say that an argument can't arise anyway, but it's a gentle approach to the dialogue and anyone can interpret anything as anything really. So if that's nagging, then sure, but it's, it's, it's with a different approach versus like, hey, you know, I, I've been wanting to talk about this for a long time and you Never make time for me. And when are we going to even get our thoughts out about this? Like, it, it's. You're approaching it with a different angle. That's wouldn't be considered nagging.

It's almost like you don't want to prompt them to be defensive. You want to, I don't wanna say sugarcoat it, but almost like, you know, show the appreciation first. Like, I know you had a really long day, honey, but let's talk about this. And, and if you start it with that, you know, sense of bufferness.

Yes.

Give that, you know, compliment in the beginning, that you acknowledge their hard work, you acknowledge, you know, everything that they're going through, but also get your point across.

Yes.

And I mean, nowadays we're talking about back then, but nowadays women work just as much as men and in some households, more so. So again, what is the disconne and women, the way that we understand each other and communicate?

Men are clear, or I don't wanna say clear, but they're direct. They're perhaps more curt. Again, they, they have this innate security that whatever they say will land and they don't think twice about it. And I think again, women, we. We are more empathetic. We are more concerned with like, oh, well, did what I say make sense? Did. Did they register what I'm saying? Did I say too much? Did I say too little? I think that's a great quality that we have as women is to be inquisitive and to, to really feel and to give something that extra time and care and attention. But it can come at a fault too. And sometimes we have to be secure enough in our voice to say, I'm gonna say this in the best way that I know how and with good intentions, and that's it. And I'm leaving that there. I'm setting the coffee down, I'm setting the mug down. And like, how do you think men.

Hurt women's feelings without realizing it? And then on the other side, how do you think women hurt men's feelings without realizing it? Looking at it from a verbal context.

I think men's sense of humor with one another is different than women and the way our sense of humor is with one another. So I think that's one way where something that isn't like a big deal to a man to say would is off putting to a woman and can be hurtful.

Right. That's when you get the comments like, oh, you're so sensitive.

Right. Though I do think many times, both by men and women, jokes are totally Masked insults too. So sometimes people know what they're doing, but sometimes I just think it's like the type of sense of humor different groups of people have with one another is also different.

What drives me crazy is when someone is trying to be passive aggressive and give you like that underhand or backhand jab. If I sense that from women, I completely shut off. Or even from a guy, to me, that's like the worst thing you could do.

Totally. I hate that it's so manipulative because it, if you react, it's like you are the aggressor or the problem. So it's a. You have to be careful and tread carefully.

But what can someone do in a situation like that where. When they're getting a joke disguised as an insult or an insult disguised as a joke.

Totally. Sometimes a simple pause and resisting the urge to nervously laugh or to justify whatever it is that they're joking about.

You said one time a really clever tactic. Oh, I'm just gonna let you get away with this this one time. I love that because it shows. Like, listen, I caught that.

Yes.

And we're gonna get back to this later.

Yes. You know what? I'm gonna let that one slide. I know, you know, you've had a long day or you've, you've. Whatever again. And there's that empathy again a little bit. Right. Not that you have to show everybody empathy all the time, but you're, you're putting yourself in their shoes, but you're also stepping back and being aware and saying, I see what you're trying to do.

I caught that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I do think we need to let people know in the moment because sometimes when we let too much time go by, it's so hard to come back to it.

Totally. Yes. And that's something that I get a lot in some of my comments is, well, you know, it's better to just not react. It's better to not respond. And yes, of course, sometimes not everything requires a response, but every time you stay non reactive and you, you just brush things off and you're the cool girl, you're just, you're showing that you'll just tolerate whatever and you'll tolerate anything. You're not going to really push back on anything and you miss these windows and these opportunities to say, hey, you disrespected me. Yes.

What are some tactics to letting someone know in a graceful way?

That's an odd comment. That's a, that's a strange thing to say at this moment.

Mm.

That's Unusual. That's not something that I would've expected to hear from you. Um, or even as. As direct as. I don't find that funny. And I. It's. I know it's hard to just to pause, give it that one to two second and just look at the person and say that instead of the nervous laughter, the fawning, um, do you think.

That'S more powerful versus turning around and, you know, giving them now an insult?

Think stooping to another person's level, that's not your, your natural state of being is only going to make someone regret it later. And that's something that I come across a lot with my clients. Like, they'll, they'll bottle it up and then they will fire back with this crazy comeback that's like insulting the other person a little bit, stooping to their level, and it lands. It's powerful. But then they end up feeling bad about it later and not good about it.

I also think there are people who just want to poke you to get a reaction out of you so that they can start that argument. I've been around people like that, and that's exhausting for a long time. Okay. Not gonna say who, but I was. I was a sen. And I'm not. I don't like to fight. I don't like to argue. It's not fun for me. I'm a very calm person.

Yes.

So if I'm with someone who's constantly trying to poke me and trigger me and lure me into an argument, I will either run to the next room, which is probably not a good thing. Right. I will ignore it, or then I'll blow up. So where. Where. How can we do this in a healthy way?

Saying to them, I know what you're trying to do, and I'm not. I'm not engaging with this right now. I'm not going to do this. And either changing the subject or walking away saying, you know, let's, let's, let's talk about this later. Or, you know, if you could excuse me, I'm going to go do something or go handle this. And this is all we're talking about. More verbal communication. Obviously there's digital communication too. Right. Sometimes people could be poking over text. That's easier to. Yeah.

Because there's no tone in text. It's like, never have an argument on text.

Never. Never. Oh my gosh. I am such a fan of picking up the phone, calling someone, and just speaking, talking.

Do you believe in waiting 24 hours, giving it time, and then re. Approaching the argument or do you think it's better to just, you know, nip it in the bud?

Varies a little bit on personality styles. I think some people are good at just thinking on their feet right away and saying what is on their mind. Some people need that time. And I personally, I would say take the time. I don't know, about 24 hours necessarily, but I'm not in the space to talk about this right now. Just communicating that I. I need some time to think about this, but would love to revisit it later tonight or would love to talk about this later, or let's. Let's meet in person. Let's jump on the phone.

Okay. So going back to immigrant communities, immigrant households, I find that the way we communicate and the way you and I probably grew up hearing our parents communicate, a lot of passion, a lot of raised voices, you know, a lot of nonverbal communication with your hands and everything, how is that conducive to how we're living today? What's normal, what's not normal?

Immigrant households, even when you're not arguing, it's just everything is high value. Passionate. Yes. This. A few weeks ago, I was talking to my grandmother on the phone in Armenian and I hung up and it was like, I was just telling her a story about something and my husband was like, what was going on? Why were you yelling at her? And I was like, oh, I wasn't. So I was just telling her about something, and it was just a very animated way of speaking.

And your husband's not Armenian?

No, no, he's Italian.

But they are very passionate too.

They are.

How are we different? Italians versus Armenians? Who's louder?

Oh, God. Well, his side of the family can be loud too, but I guess he just heard it a certain way, especially not knowing exactly what was being said. It just sounded like an argument to him. But I, I think passion is great and why that shouldn't be like, something that we shed as. As we assimilate to different cultures and assimilate to the culture here as Americans. I think it's wonderful. It's just. It's good to fine tune. Sometimes I talk with my hands. I, you know, I don't think it's. I think it's a trait. There are traits that make us who we are and representative of our culture and our people. But fine tuning and pausing sometimes and saying, okay, am I reacting the way I just, I saw my parents reacting? Or how I think is normal to react, but maybe I could take a step back and just say, at least Buy some time and say, I'm, I'm gonna just hold off on this for a second. I, I, I need to think about this more.

If you had to pinpoint three or a few ways that we communicate things that we learned growing up in certain cultures that are unhealthy, which ones stand out to you?

Definitely the keep it to yourself meek, don't share an opinion, be unbothered attitude that is like a cousin of sweep it under the rug, just don't talk about it. It'll just go away. Just leave it be. That's who they are. I think that majorly enables the personalities of toxic people and just dysfunctional dynamics. But that's something I personally saw a lot growing up, because I just think that was the coping mechanism. And then what would be another one? What would you say is one that you'd add to the list?

I think sometimes it's the way that men and women talk to one another and how they put each other down because they think they can, and we don't realize how hurtful it really is. And looking back, you know, listening to some of the conversations I heard growing up or some of the conversations I experienced in my own marriage, I think there's just a power dynamic that's not balanced. And so one party feels that they actually can put you down and it's okay because it's wrapped up in a joke or it's wrapped up in cultural implications. So we think it doesn't mean anything, but after a while it does mean something because that's when you grow resentful of someone. I certainly experienced that, and I didn't know how to communicate that in a healthy way because so I did bottle it up, I bottled it up. And then one day it would just explode. Yep. How do we not do that when.

All of those little things are building up? Addressing them in the moment, as tough as it might be, as minuscule as it might seem, and as much as the other person might try to minimize it.

So you and I both grew up in divorced households, and I think that breeds people pleasers. I've interviewed so many people who come from a similar family dynamic, and they are all guilty of people pleasing. What does people pleasing look like? What are some examples?

Sure. Putting yourself last. Making yourself second priority. Making sure everyone is okay first. Mediating between people. Putting your needs last. Truly or even not, not even knowing what, what you tolerate and what you won't tolerate, like your, your foundation of self is, is weak. So you, you put others first. Like I said, your Foundations muddied and weak. So you put others first, you prioritize others. You're almost more in tune with what's going on with others and how they're feeling and how you can make it okay and make things all good before saying, well, okay, what do I want out of this? What do. What am I okay with? What am I not okay with?

Effy, what are some signs that people pleasing has gone too far and it's really starting to hurt you?

You don't even know where to start. Honestly, when you. You don't know where to start in nailing how you feel, expressing how you feel, you're burnt out.

I think it really is that lack of energy. Right. I read something recently that said, if something is good for you and right for you, it gives you energy. And it's. Sometimes it's really just that simple. Looking at a situation or a dynamic and saying, does this feel draining?

Yes.

Or does this feel like it's giving me energy? Because every relationship includes problems. Every situation can include an argument. You know, it's never supposed to look or feel perfect. However, I think if a situation gives you positive energy, positive reinforcement, then you're in the right place. But if something consistently feels like you are being triggered and your energy, you know, leads to burnout, that's probably a situation where you are over giving.

We are trying. We want to do so much and we're capable of so much, and a lot of is expected of us too. When you're trying to meet all the things, it's inevitably going to lead to some sort of lack of energy or burnout, even though those things are all positive in their own isolated field. Right. But when you're trying to do all of it at once and it's expected of you all at once, it can really be tough and draining. And I mean, I'm very transparent about this. On within my content and with my family. This first year of having two, my older son's three and my younger one's 11 months, it's been tough.

You're in the thick of it, girl. You are in the thick of it. As a slightly older boy, Mom, I'll tell you, 6 and 9, you're. You're in the hardest. Yeah, hardest period for sure.

Yes.

And I think the trick to that, really, which I didn't do at the time, tell me. My. My toxic trait at the time was taking on everything because I thought there was some, you know, prize at the end of the day for burnout, for exhaustion, like I earned the right to Sleep. Because I nearly killed myself working today and now I don't do that. Now I honestly carve out the time to truly rest, because rest is just as important as work. A hundred percent doing nothing. And we don't do that enough. And I think, unfortunately, we are always teaching women to add more to their plate until the plate is overflowing. And I say, take stuff off your plate. Your kids don't need 19 activities.

Yes.

So I want to bring it back down to some of these communication styles that we hear about, especially on social media, because it's like clickbait. Right. So when we talk about gaslighting, what is gaslighting and what are examples of gaslighting?

Gaslighting is when someone makes you second guess yourself, makes you doubt your remembrance of something or an occasion or whatever it might be. They make you feel insignificant or try to manipulate a situation and why you're bringing something up. They try to turn it back on you and make it about you. These are all traits of gaslighting.

Are men more likely to gaslight or women?

I think it's. I think it's fair game, unfortunately. I think it's a. It's a toxic behavior that anyone can impose on another person and anyone can be the victim or recipient of.

How do you combat gaslighting?

This is so triggering for me because it's something I experienced a lot.

How so?

Growing up again, divorced parents, dysfunctional relationship with one parent in particular. It was a lot of like, no, you know, that's not, that's not how it was. Like, why do you, you know, why do you think that? There was. There was a lot of that. And it made me uncertain of my own experiences, of my own memories, of my own opinions, thoughts.

The one that drives me insane is when someone says, are you insane? Oh. I'm like, no. Did that sound crazy to you? And it's really those, those little comments, those little triggers. And I lived with that for a long time with a certain person, where I was constantly being gaslit for, like, the littlest things. And when you really break it down and look at it in a granular sense, you're like, what I'm saying and what I'm doing is not wrong. But you are immediately attaching a negative title to something and running with it and trying to convince me that that's actually the case.

Yes. And making it about you instead of what the core issue is about now it's about you being insane, not the initial issue. So deflection is a big part of it too. Narcissists definitely use gaslighting as, like, the main tool in their toolbox.

In their toolbox, for sure.

Awesome. For sure. But what is a narcissist.

Narcissist to you? I mean, we talk about this so much, but I really would love to understand what is a narcissist and who is a narcissist and how do they communicate?

Oh, someone who loves control, loves to have another person within their control, manipulative to the point where they have kind of put another person in a box again to have that sense of control. And someone they know won't talk back, won't question anything, will just kind of go with their flow. Very egotistical. They are. They know all, they understand all. They are the wisest, the smartest, the funniest. And narcissists can have a lot of positive traits in the beginning, too. They know what to do to lure someone in. They know how to.

How do they do it?

Charm. Charm, charisma. Some of the most narcissistic people are very charismatic, and they. Or they love bomb.

Right?

Like, they. They shower someone with love at first and praise and affection to almost get you to get your guard down.

It's almost like grooming.

Yes. Red flags are, you're insane. You're. You know, you're overthinking this. Never validating someone, never just hearing somebody speaking with you statements all the time. Absolutes always. Never. That's a big one.

That drives me crazy.

Yeah.

I can't stand it. Like, you never do this.

Right.

And then it makes you say, but do you remember this one time that I did this and this other time that I did this? And so now you're, you know, playing detective in your own life, trying to find evidence of when you were actually the thing, as opposed to focusing on the core problem there.

Right, right. And I'm not saying, like, that's not specific to gaslighting or narcissism, but in general, it's a red flag when someone is always speaking in absolutes. It's an area that can be improved upon, for sure.

And do you think people can improve on their communication skills? Always.

Always. I think it's. It's a muscle that you exercise and work out and repeating yourself and practicing all make a difference. We're all works in progress. I even will tell myself, okay, like, I could have maybe handled that differently or I could have approached that with a different tone. So 100%.

It's funny. I was married for a long time, for 16 years, so I know how to communicate with that person. But now that I'm in new relationships, I'm learning to communicate all over again because a people are obviously all different, but also because there isn't that familiarity there, there isn't that buffer space and also, you know, the cultural norms that he and I used to have together. So there's certain things I know are just gonna get accepted and now versus when I'm, you know, communicating with people who are non Armenian who don't know me that well, it's almost like I have to slow down and teach myself all over again how to communicate.

Yes.

That's fascinating.

It is, it is. And it makes sense because you're, you're meeting new people. You are, it's all new. So how do you do that?

You know, I try not to think too much about, you know, how they grew up, let's say, or how they might be looking at the situation from their own lens, but rather just be myself. Slow down, try to explain things without over explaining things and then just leave space for. And, And I tell people too, look, I love when you tell me if I did something wrong. I love when you tell me if I hurt your feelings. Just let's be yes straight shooters here. Because I don't like someone who can be passive aggressive. And I'm not a passive aggressive person. I can't be that way. So I really try to encourage the people in my life. Just tell me if I did something you didn't like. Just tell me.

Yeah.

And as I'm now getting to know people who are not Armenian, because let's be honest, I'm not sure if I want to marry another Armenian. I'm open to it, but I'm also open to everyone else.

It's, you know, to be honest, I think some of it goes back to trauma, trauma based coping that we specifically Armenians as a community have had to deal with and just be in the survival mode because of trauma that was passed down from generations.

Right.

And just like not speaking in, not communicating in healthy ways, being passive aggressive or sweeping things under the rug, or right away going from 0 to 100 and starting to yell. I think a lot of it is generational trauma.

Absolutely. And when someone speaks that way around me, my shoulders start to tense up and I get so uncomfortable. My ex husband's family, they talk very passionately. That's just how they are. So to me, it always felt like they're arguing, but I know they're not. I know they love each other and I know after three seconds they're you know, all great again, but I couldn't handle it. It really messed with my nervous system. Do you get a lot of that where people, it's like different family dynamics and how do you handle that? Because you're not gonna write these people off. They're in your life, you love them. But it's like, you know, I'm not gonna try and change an 80 year old Armenian man.

Of course.

So how do you find middle ground?

Of course, I think exiting sometimes when necessary or taking breaks, just like removing yourself from the situation and maybe going to the bathroom or going outside and playing with the kids, like just, just changing it up a little bit. I think that can help a lot. Being aware of your audience acknowledging like okay, 80 year old's grandfather making some passive aggressive comments or things that, you know, aren't really acceptable to say nowadays. Are you really going to school the man or leave it be. Right. Especially if it's an in law. Right. You want to. It's a little bit different than it being your, your family. Taking that into account and maybe redirecting the conversation saying anyway, Dede or grandpa, whatever, tell me about this story, tell me about this experience. You've never just redirecting it. One of my favorite methods, if you will, that I teach within my coaching is the bar method. So it's buy time, assert your boundary or redirect the conversation. So you have options. Yeah, you have options for how you want to handle the situation. There are nuances, people are different. You're not going to speak to an 80 year old Armenian or immigrant grandfather the way you would to a 25 year old cousin of yours, for example, something like that. But you have options in this way. So buy time, assert your boundary or just redirect.

What are some tools to be a strong communicator? Someone who's confident who, you know, says what they mean and means what they say. I mean, what are some tricks of the trade?

Keep it short and sweet, let people ask you questions. And by short and sweet I'd say, and sometimes I fault this too because I do love to talk and go on, but keep it to around 45 seconds to a minute, whatever you're trying to share or say, and then pass the ball to the other person. I like to think of conversations and communication like a ball going back and forth and a tennis match. Give the other person an opportunity to speak, have them ping, pass the ball back to you and have it go back and forth. So keep your, try to keep your dialogue or your point to 45 seconds to a minute, and know that you'll have the opportunity to share more later. Rehearsal is key. The more you practice, the more reps you do, the better you will speak, the more comfortable you'll be in your own voice, and the quicker you'll be able to think on your feet. It's truly like a workout. Like, I love to make that comparison. It's like a workout but for your mind and for your voice. And the more you do it, you know, you might not show up. Well, one day, you might show up great. Another day, the more you do it, the better you get. And doing it at home is great. I. I know it might sound a little crazy and a little might feel weird at first, but practice at home. Practice in the mirror. Practice with someone that you love and trust. Like, look, I'm really trying to eliminate some of my filler words in my sentences. Whenever I say, one, stop me, and I'm gonna restart what I'm saying. Have them coach you in person.

Mm.

But coaching also can help, like working with someone in real time and doing those reps in a safe space so that when the moment. The real moment comes, you feel stronger. And I. I will say, I have gotten so much stronger in my own communication, my own coaching. Just over the four years that I've been doing this, I think a really.

Effective tool is to record yourself and then listen to yourself. And you'll catch it.

Oh, yeah.

So I've learned so much about how I communicate just being on this podcast, because it's one. When you're reporting, it's a totally different thing when you're sitting here and having a conversation. And we all think having a conversation is something so natural we do it right. But there are things that you can say that might be very annoying to someone who's listening. And so I'm always trying to catch the little things that I do, the little things that I say that might derail my audience.

Yes.

And so it's so important to be mindful of how you're coming across, whether you record yourself or videotape yourself. What are some other things people can do as far as body language go? Because it's not just our voice, but really how we show up 100%.

Eye contact is a big one.

I feel like I stare at people, though, when I do eye contact. Too much eye contact, and then I feel like the freak is just staring. So is that normal, or.

I think there's a happy medium. There's the. Of course, too much staring is going to be off putting, but also constantly looking around the person when they're trying to tell you something or not making eye contact. Avoiding eye contact can feel strange too. And I think especially in this post Covid world or where we're doing things virtually more than ever, we forget that. We forget that eye contact and holding good eye contact and engaging with someone is key. And it's so important to good communication.

How do you know someone really heard you when you're talking versus someone who just pretends to be listening?

Well, listening is half of good communication, truly. It may not sound like it, like when you're just saying that out loud, but being a good listener is being a good communicator.

How can we be good listeners being.

Present in the moment with that person? So often I talk to clients who say, like, I never know the right thing to say when someone's telling me a story or sharing something with me. And it's like, well, why are you looking for the right thing to say when you're present with the person you autumn you. You instinctively know what to question them on or what's next, or to maybe prompt them to talk more. And you hear this a lot. Oh, be present, be present. Okay, how do you be present for me? And to me, I think it's putting yourself in someone's shoes and really, really embracing, like what they're telling you and what they're saying, painting the picture with them. So someone I met said, oh, yeah, I came here from, from Austin, Texas. And I said, oh, okay. Like that must have been. How was that flight for you? That was a short flight for you. Right? Like thinking about, like, okay, their journey, their travel, their. Their travel compared to my travel. Right. Like, I'm from New Jersey, whatever. So painting the picture with the person, asking them questions as if you were there with them shows you're a good listener, shows you're engaged, and it shows that you're there with them and it prompts them to speak more.

I think just asking more questions that are thoughtful instead of trying to always give advice. My mom does this where I feel like she's not really hearing me. She's just waiting for her turn to give me advice. And it's like that immediately makes me shut down. What are some things people say in the middle of a conversation that shuts the other person down? Especially if they're trying to convey something that's sensitive.

Yeah. Unsolicited advice for sure. Rushing to judgment is another big one. Blame like, well, what, what did you do? I think the that blame. It's like immediate shutdown, immediate turn off, or hijacking the conversation, making it about them. Now that's with another caveat too, because that's how humans relate to one another, like psychologically. I read a study that said we connect to one another by sharing a story of ourselves. So it's natural to want to say, oh yeah, me, I experienced the same thing as you. I also like had this really awful flight, whatever it might be.

That's so true because oftentimes we think, well, if I share my experience too, this will connect us. Right. But also that makes the other person feel like, well, now you just made it all about you. Right, right. It happens a lot, I think, in female relationships.

Yeah. Giving the person the space, asking, defaulting to asking questions first before jumping in with your experience and then later, that's fine. Again, that's how we connect. We're not robots. It's not. We're not in isolated silos in life.

So we talked a lot about interpersonal communic. But I really want to talk about how we're communicating on social media. You're huge on social media. You have like half a million followers.

How.

What's your advice to someone who also wants to put themselves out there in that way to get a specific message across without coming off as vain? You know, I know a lot of people who might think, well, you're just too much on social media. You're doing too much. But that's really like, what's your answer to that?

Ignore those people.

Good.

Ignore with a capital I. Because you are always going to have someone saying something and this goes back to that people pleasing a little bit. If you're trying to cater to everyone and everything and be mindful of every single opinion someone may have of you, you're going to be diluted, your voice is going to be muted, you're not going to be saying much of anything. If you're approaching something with good intentions and with the intent of helping someone or having fun without hurting anybody, then move forward, move along.

Do you remember the first video you posted?

Oh my gosh, yes. What was, was when reels had just come out on Instagram and it was to audio and I was trying to make a list of like what's confident versus cocky and traits that differentiate between the two. And it was, it was cute, it was fun. I was like pointing towards. I was really big at the time.

Is that really when you got your start? Start?

Yeah, yeah. It was around 2021. I started the coaching business. In 2021 and went all in on Instagram and Tick Tock and then slowly started expanding on different on other platforms. But you have to be willing to look foolish. You have to. I still, I, I still am willing to look foolish. Now I'll do things that maybe don't land or it's different from my usual content, but you have to be willing to be foolish and, and explore, play around, see, see what might work, what might not, and say, okay, I'll try this a little differently or I'll. I'll do this next time, whatever it might be.

What was the response you were getting from people at the time? Because you're talking about effective communication. Not a lot of people talk about that on social media. Did you feel like, okay, this is, this is my, my thing now?

I loved it. I, I felt a lot of passion towards it. I also felt like there's a lot to learn still.

What's your advice to someone who also feels like they have a message and they have a voice they want to put themselves out there on social media? What's like, the first thing they can do to get started?

Create a page with no one following it at first. Like, create something. Create something where it's like you. You don't have an audience yet. You have nothing to lose. You don't have your family and friends judging you silently or people who know you wondering, oh, what, what the hell is she doing? Start a page with no followers and just get your. Get used to your voice. Get used to showing up on camera or maybe make content that isn't your face necessarily. Like, it could be a different content type that's like landscape or walking with text on it.

No, but I mean, I feel like people really love these little short videos because you're getting so much out of it. What do you think is.

Yes.

The biggest thing that people get from your videos?

The practical tips that they can apply. Starting today, starting tomorrow. I feel communication confidence can be very abstract topics. So breaking it down and making it practical, tangible, something that someone can say, you know, I can go and apply that tomorrow. I think that's major and that really resonates and I really try to, to embody that in all of my content. Sure. Some things you have to share the mindset of it because this is so much about mindset and inner work as it is like what you're saying out loud. But practical tips are great. They land. I love them myself. A practical cleaning tip. A practical mom hack.

Oh, I love it. Yeah. I mean, I've never been on TikTok, believe it or not. Yeah, so I don't, but, but I do get a lot of it from social media, I mean from Instagram. And you're certainly one of those people. For me, when I'm watching, I'm like, oh, that's so you're, that's like brilliant. And I just learned something in three seconds. Thank you. It's such a powerful tool. Of all the videos that you put out there, and you have a ton, which message would you say really landed with people that you feel like, like, you know, people needed to hear this?

Yes. About a year and a half ago, I made a video on what to say when someone says, you're too dressed up. And the concept has evolved for me since then because the responses I was giving, pretending to be the other person were really passive aggressive responses. So this, this is now how do you deal with passive aggressiveness? But that really resonated with, with people because like, I get this a lot from my in laws, I get this a lot from people at work. I, it, it wasn't so much about, or it was a lot about what people are saying to you, but it's also people, how people are trying to make the other person feel or the relatability that came with it. People were like, God, I wish I said some of these things when I, when I had the opportunity. There was this, like this relatability and this relief almost. It's like, you know what, I didn't say this then, but now I have these responses in my arsenal. And some of them were positive responses like, oh, thank you, thank you for noticing. Like killing the passive aggressiveness with positivity I think is such a big one.

Got it. So as we start to wrap this up, what are some, what are the three most important tips that you would give to someone who wants to be a better, more effective, stronger, confident communicator.

When you can approach with gratitude and empathy? I understand, I, I, I hear you, but that's not going to work for me. Or thank you so much for inviting me, but I won't be able to come. But think of gratitude and empathy as like your pillars and try to lead with that. Or I understand you're having a bad day, but that was hurtful. Again, it's, it's diffusing the situation a bit. It's giving you an idea of how to actually say something, eliciting a less defensive response from the other person. Know your options, buy time, assert the boundary, or redirect the conversation. You have those options as outlets and ways of approaching what you want to do next. And a third tip would be to repetition in a safe space. Record yourself and show up imperfectly anyway, just keep showing up.

Up.

Even the most seemingly perfect communicators speakers are not perfect all the time. Or they might. They might be doing their version of perfect now, but in a few years they're even stronger and even better. So that could be you.

Rael, this was so great. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're in LA. Literally like 48 hours. So crazy. Thanks so much for spending the last hour with us. Of course. Where can people find you?

Well, with Raelle, on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn. Well, with Rael Coach Coaching is my business. I am starting to host, like I said, monthly group classes now. They're an hour 15 minutes. We talk about some of these themes in more detail and do live coaching within the classes too. And more to come, more resources, more material for independent learning to come to.

I love that. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Alina, of course.

Thank you so much for tuning in to Breaking through with Alina Obervi for our community to grow. Please like and share and also leave a review on this episode. Of course you can find me on social media and let me know what you'd like to talk about in future episodes. Nothing is off limits, so let's have some fun.