Episode 046 Mommy Burnout , Dr. Sheryl Ziegler

No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza!

Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Green.

Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Green. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

This is Rebecca Green for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I have Dr. Cheryl Ziegler with us today. She is the bestselling author of Mommy Burnout, the podcast host of Dr. Cheryl's Pod Couch, a regular national and local news contributor, and runs a private group practice in Denver, Colorado. She is also a national and international presenter on topics related to stress, parenting, mental health, and burnout, as well as a TEDx speaker. Thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you and all of your listeners.

Well, I have to, I have to take you back because I love to learn about people and I would love to know what inspired you to become a psychologist.

Oh yeah. I am one of those really rare people that knew what I wanted to do when I was 12 years old, when I was in what we call junior high.

Wow.

And I remember going into high school and, you know, I think that starts— this is very common, but it starts off with, I think, feeling like, oh, I like listening to people's problems, or, you know, people come to me with their problems. And so I think by high school, I just, I remember going to my guidance counselor and just saying, what does it take to be a psychologist? And he was like, it takes a lot of, lot, a lot of years of school. And I was like, Okay, just tell me what I have to do. And I just did it as very prescriptively, like, okay, this is what I want to do. So I think I'm one of those really rare people that knew very early on and went to school and never took any breaks and just sort of did it. And, um, I feel like I'm really the luckiest person in the world. I love what I do.

Well, you're so lucky that you knew at such an early age. You know, my daughter is 12. And she's been telling me since she was 5 that she's going to be an actress.

So, well, listen, don't get me wrong there. Actually, I have, I have a journal that I got, I think, when I was 13, and it's like, you know, one of the prompting questions was, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, uh, a movie star or a psychologist. So there definitely was a part of me that also wanted to be an actress too.

Hey, you never know, it might be in your future.

Exactly, exactly.

Um, so there you cover so many amazing topics, and there's no way that we're going time to dive into all of them. I'm gonna focus on, for people who are actually watching this, I'm holding up the book. This is Dr. Ziegler's amazing book, Mommy Burnout, that I read and loved. And I'm actually currently writing a blog about this right before I got on. I was typing and I want you to tell us, where did you get this great book idea from? The title, the idea, it's awesome.

Oh, good. Thank you so much. So it's, it's definitely a process for anybody who's ever written a book, you know, it's a long process, but to make a long process somewhat short, I truly, when I had, when I just started my private practice out, it's called the Child and Family Therapy Center. I really intended on, you know, primarily seeing kids and of course consulting with their families. But as time went on, I started seeing all of these moms. And they would come in and they were just saying the same things over and over and over. And I truly had this feeling, you know, things like, this is so exhausting. Is this all there is? Oh my gosh, I thought I was, you know, going to get married and have kids and everything was going to be so great. I don't feel fulfilled. I've left my career. Did I do the right thing? It was just the same theme, a lot of exhaustion, a lot. And so I just, Really, I remember one day having the thought of, gosh, if my 3 o'clock knew what my 4 o'clock was feeling, like the world would be a better place. I wish they all knew that they were all feeling the same way because it was like one mom would leave and the next one would come and it would be so similar. So it started with that observation. And I had definitely that strong secret I felt like I was keeping. Like, you know, it just felt like back then. So when I say I'm saying back then, this is like 12 years ago, 10, 12 years ago. And so there weren't there weren't blogs and there weren't all these ways we were revealing our vulnerabilities and our fears. You know, it was really private. And then basically I had my first child and that was okay. But then when I had my second, which was 11 years ago, I definitely felt what I now call burnout, but I definitely felt the, the most prevailing way I would describe it is I felt like I was drowning. And just coming up for air at times, but then drowning, like in a constant state of being behind, disorganized, no longer on top of my game. And I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm feeling the same thing all these moms are talking about. And then I really wanted to write a book about it. I just was like, this— there's a phenomenon, there's something happening here that we're not talking about. And then when I— I didn't have a name, actually, the first title for the book was called Modern Day Motherhood. I just thought it was like, this is just what's happening. So that was actually my working title. And then when I finally talked to who was my agent, she was like, you gotta name this condition. We're not just gonna call this, you know, Modern Day Motherhood. You have to name it. So I was like, okay. And, um, I really did the research and found that burnout, the way we study it in mental health and in psychology is usually about ER docs, nurses, hospice workers, caregivers. And I just looked at the definition, looked at what was happening with motherhood and said, oh, this is what's happening. Moms are burning out. Like not just doctors and nurses burn out, parents can burn out too. And so that's how that came to be.

That's amazing. I mean, it's the perfect title. Can you actually define— I feel like you've said it, the drowning, the exhaustion. Can you define burnout for us?

There, the real— there is an actual proper definition because like I said, since the 1970s, um, this is an area— burnout is an area that's been studied. It started with caregivers and then it's moved on to a lot of employees. So people talk about employee burnout a lot too. I think that the employment that moms have is the vocation of parenting, but it is the physical and emotional exhaustion that results from your job and it leaves you feeling cynical and like you are no longer good or capable of doing your job. That is the proper definition of burnout.

That's, that makes a lot of sense. And then when you're feeling burned out, it leads to symptoms.

Yes.

Is what I, what we both see with women. And can you talk about some of these symptoms that we're feeling and seeing? I shouldn't say you're feeling them. Sometimes I, sometimes I feel them.

Oh yes. No, no, I still, I still feel them too. I always tell people, Even though I talk a lot about chronic stress and burnout, I feel I get there too. It's just that I know, I understand the feeling a lot quicker and I know what to do and I know what's helpful for me. And that's all I hope. It's not like stress is a functional process of being a human being. It's when stress goes awry, right? Like we all, I'm sure we would all say, we always do, right? The disclaimer, like, don't get me wrong, I love my kids. Like, we know, we know you love your kids. Right? We all do that. Like, I mean, don't get me wrong. I mean, I love him so much. I'm like, no, no, I already know. Don't— you don't have to give me the clause and the disclaimer that you love your kids. We all love our kids. It's just more of, you know, what it looks like to be a mother today, functioning today. So what I did in Mommy Burnout is the first chapter I did, like, before the first of all the chapters, like, does this sound familiar? Like, sound familiar? And then I went through and basically did the common, just everyday characteristics that I see in moms. So that could be everything from no longer having interest in sex, being exhausted all the time, having shoulder pain and headaches, being irritable, yelling at your kids more than you'd want to, looking forward to wine or alcohol a bit much, you know, at the end of the night. Um, there's just sleepiness, sleeplessness, all of these kinds of symptoms that actually— right now, the— there's something called the ICD-9, which is used to diagnose also very much in Europe. Um, they came out with burnout syndrome. That was kind of a really big deal in 2019. Here in our country, or what we use, which is really the DSM-5, they really categorize it under depression. And a lot of the The symptoms do look like depression. I understand why that is confusing. However, I think that people can be burned out. I think you can, you know, eat poorly and have poor sleep and be irritable and be drinking too much, popping painkillers, whatever you're doing, crying in the shower. I think you can be all of those things without necessarily being clinically depressed. And obviously I think you can be depressed without being burned out. So that's my take on that, but that's just what it looks like. I think that we have all come to just accept this as a state of parenting a little too much, and that's what I think we need to reclaim.

Well, and I love that when I have listened to you talk about this, you talk about how you walk— you walk your talk. I think that's the word. And I love that you said that because we feel— I know personally that if I'm giving advice and I'm not taking my own advice, I feel like, um, Is the word an imposter?

Yes. Yeah. Or a fraud.

Yes. So I love that you take it in for yourself and use, use this for your own life too. Can we talk about the connection between mommy burnout and isolation? Because I think that's so important.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, I did a recent interview where for some reason there was something about what we were talking about that really made me think about, gosh, can you imagine being a mom during this pandemic. And, you know, a new mom, like having a baby, and how isolating that must have been. Because even, of course, before the pandemic, if people say to me, okay, we only have— we do only have, you know, 3 minutes, what is your number 1 tip for avoiding burnout? And consistently through the research and through my own work, it is not being isolated. It's social connection. And so the isolation, we all know it starts very early on, like when you're maybe pregnant with your first, right? With which for so many women was quite the journey. I share that as well, that I dealt with infertility. And so you're finally pregnant. Your miracle has happened. You get lots of attention when you're pregnant and you get thrown parties and everybody wants to just imagine, right? Like you can just go back to that period of time where people are inappropriately touching your belly. People are predicting what you're having. This really, for the most part, pretty glorious time. Even if you're super sick like I was, it still was just magical. And it was for me all 3 times. But you have the baby and after the first, you know, first couple of days, I remember people came and visited in the hospital, balloons and flowers and casseroles. And a couple of weeks into it, you know, your spouse is, or your partner is kind of back to their normal routine. Maybe you're on a maternity leave. Maybe you, are going to stay home with your child. And then all of a sudden it's just a few weeks in where you're like, oh my gosh, it's just me and this baby. The phone's not ringing so much. You're not getting as many check-ins and all of a sudden you feel very alone even. And then you're so conflicted because you love your baby so much. It's so great, but there's this flood of hormonal changes. You're seeing the doctor less, even, even the doctor can represent, like for me, I, absolutely love my OB. So when I have to say goodbye to her, like I'm not going to see her all the time, I'm like, oh, right? Because it's somebody sort of taking care of you and everything becomes about the baby. Even when people do check in, it's how's the baby? Are they sleeping? Are they eating? Are they latching? You know? And all of a sudden you start to, I think as a new mom, you start to feel really lonely and isolated and maybe less important. And You know, maybe not feeling great about your body. Your breasts might be bleeding. You, you know, you might have stitches. You might be recovering from a C-section and it starts there. And, um, there's a pretty lonely period. And what, um, what my TED Talk, my TEDx Talk was about was really, um, it's titled Why Moms Are Miserable, but I basically get to the story about how eventually you even lose your friendships. And you know, you're just less intimate. You have less time to talk, hang out, go to happy hours, all those fun things. And you find yourself just sort of like maybe growing a family and with your spouse, but really lacking something. And you don't always realize how much your friendships have gone by the wayside. And the last time you had a girls' night out might've been a year ago. Mm-hmm.

And I listened to your TED Talk and I want you to know I cried. Oh, I actually cried because You know, you make such a good point. We all just need a best friend. We need friends. We need our friends. And instead of saying, I'm too tired, or my kids need me, we, we have to make these connections to help ourselves be a better person in all facets of our life. And we don't realize how much we need it.

We don't, we don't realize how much we need it. We also don't realize how much we miss it until somebody asks us. And, you know, I, of course, the people that I work with, like, I not only ask about their best friend, if they do have a friend or a best friend that they've identified, I am like, what is their name? And we talk about them every time. Like, I'll be like, so what does Susie think about that? You know, because I want to know, A, what do they think? Or B, I don't know, I haven't told her. Okay. You haven't, you're talking to me about it, but you haven't told her. Right? And so, I will say to not let people hanging, what I share— not leave people hanging— what I share in the TEDx talk is not that I didn't think that I had friends. I had a packed social calendar. We had dinners all the time. But I found myself in a hospital room and really thought to myself, who cares that I'm here right now? Who cares? Not who can help bring my kids to school, who can pick them up, who can take them to practice, who will drop off some food because maybe I'll be in for a couple of days. Not that stuff. I had all that covered. But who would just simply care, like, that I don't need anything, just be like, hey, you're not gonna believe what I'm like. I'm sitting in the ER right now. They're doing some tests. They don't know what's wrong with me. And I, you know, for me, I, I feel fortunate that I did have people who I thought cared, but they lived all the way across the country. And I was still relying for that social emotional support from my childhood friends, which again, I'm so blessed, but, but they're not in my immediate every single day. And I realized that I did have people I could be closer to, or I could be making better efforts with, but because in my head they weren't my like best friend of 25 years or something like that, I think I wasn't Diving in. And that really changed things for me. And I started to realize like, we can have lots of different types of friends and they are all so important to our journey. Not just of, of course, motherhood, parenting, but also just womanhood. You're going from your, like your twenties to your thirties to your forties. All those decades, like really provoke such different things. And we need, we might have different friends for different ages and stages. And that's something I was having a hard time really accepting because I just wanted like my lifelong closest friends in the whole wide world. And I realized like, no, it's okay that maybe we were friends like for the couple years the kids were in preschool and we don't talk anymore. That doesn't mean it wasn't important. It just means for that age and stage we were really important to each other, talking about potty training and bedwetting, whatever. And you know, now the kids are in middle school and I have a different group of people I relied— it's okay. And that for me was actually really huge.

Well, and you made so many important points in your book. And one of the points my husband actually razzes me about, he says I don't make an effort with the neighbors. And you said, do you get out of your car and run in the house or do you say hello to your neighbors? And I'm like, oh my God. Like, you know, we, we're always rushing. I hate saying that. And you talk about that. So we're gonna talk about that too, but I feel like I'm always rushing. I can stop and say hello to my neighbors. Come on.

Yep, you can. You really can. And I've come to realize why those little interactions are important. I mean, again, for me, the pandemic really made it very, very clear why those things were important. But I just feel like I have so many different stories that could come to my mind about the little things, the little interactions, the little effort, and the great rewards or gains you make by it. I will say that this hurried life that we're living is potentially actually taking years off of our lives, is causing us great dissatisfaction, and is making us look— because the book ends with legacy— and is making us look to our kids like we are frenzied all the time, that we don't have time for them. We don't have time to say, hello, how are you? Oh, isn't the weather beautiful today? We don't have time for 10, 15 seconds with our neighbor. Do we have time for our kids? And I know that seems extreme, right? Because we dive so much into our kids. I have a whole chapter on like, everything doesn't have to be the best for your kids. But a lot of our interactions with people are non-present. We're looking at our phone while simultaneously trying to talk to them and cook dinner and answer emails. Right. And it does send a message not only to our own nervous systems, right, to always be so wired up and on edge, but also to our kids that we aren't present, that we don't put that effort in. And we model what friendships and relationships in general are supposed to look like to our kids. So if you don't make those efforts, they are taking note.

It is— you said so many important things. I don't even know if I can capture all the questions that I'm, I'm thinking of right now. The busyness, the impression that I'm giving to my friends and my kids. And I don't like it. I'm giving everyone the impression that I'm busy. And you talk about how we need to take that word out of our vocabulary. So can you give me and others pointers on why this is such a bad word? And what we can do differently?

It is, it's like the dirty word. So yes, I say ban busy. Yes. And because we wear busy as a badge of honor. If I am busy, I'm important. Clearly, right? If I'm too busy for you to return your call, your text, then I must be just so desired and so successful, whatever that means, or whatever I hope it means. That, that's the impression I'm trying to give to people. And, and that again might be unconsciously, you might not even realize that's what you're doing, but that is what you're doing. So when you ban busy, I say busy builds walls. Yes. Right. If, if you, if you saw me, let's just say our kids are in school together, we've never really talked too much. And maybe we've had some light conversation and you're kind of like, I really like her. I kind of want to go grab a coffee with her. Right. When, when the world goes to its new normal, I'd love to go on a coffee to Grab coffee with her. But every time you see me, I look rushed. I look harried, or I'm telling you that I'm so busy, right? Oh my gosh, I gotta, I gotta just drop off so quick. I am so busy. I'm running late to a meeting, right? If I do that, which is so normal, um, you are not going to ask me to go do something. You're going to feel intimidated, put off, like you're wasting my time, like maybe you're imposing. And so I, I'm telling you all right now, I am— I really try to be genuine. I am a quote busy person, but I now just try to make the effort to make people feel like they have a place in my life because they do, and that relationships are more important than anything else because they are, right? We all walk around and we say my family is my most important thing in the world, but do we always behave in that way? Do we always act in line because I think most of us people who are working parents, they act like their work is the most important thing in the world, that their boss is the most important thing in the world. So it was— I will tell you, I'm sure that I've thrown out, you know, 10,000 I'm busies. And now what I say instead is I just say, like, people overtly ask me, like, you busy these days? Things must be crazy, right? And I even try to do that whole get rid of, like, it's crazy busy, right? Because that adds to that crazy feeling. So I'll just say things like, yes, my— yeah, my plate feels pretty full, or the demand is really high. I use synonyms. I describe it. I'm being honest still if that's the way I'm feeling at that moment. But no matter what, I will still say, all right, let's, let's— so let's just get our calendars out and let's figure out when we can do a walk and talk, which is something else I write about. The walk and talk, which is so great. So that's how I handle it. It's not like I pretend I'm not if I am. It's just that it's like, but you're still more important, or I still can make time for you. Yes.

And that's what makes me so sad is I don't want my 8-year-old or my friend to think that what I'm, you know, the busy yuck stuff that I don't want to do is more important. I don't want to do the laundry. I don't want to do the dishes. I want to go to lunch with you. So I think that You just taught me that I have to really work on making sure people know how important they are to me, including my 8-year-old who says, "You're always busy." Yes.

Like, what does that really mean? You know, like, here's the other thing I'll say, like, for your 8-year-old, and in my case too, I do though want my kids to know that I love what I do and that when I am doing what I love, that I am unapologetic about it. The reason why I think— I think, I mean, I'm not perfect, but the reason why I think I'm— I've gotten good at this through practice and only through practice is because I'm getting better at setting those boundaries. A lot of B words here, right? So I don't try to talk to my kid and text at the same time. I don't try to write emails in the middle of dinner. Or in the kitchen, right? I'm really like— I, I happen to have a space in my house where I work, and I will be— again, even right before this, my— I have 2 kids home right now, remote learning. And so I said to them, I am doing an interview at 10 o'clock, you need to entertain yourselves, and when I'm done, we'll come back and we'll play Connect Four. So I set the boundary: don't interrupt me, go entertain yourselves. When I'm done I wasn't like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, guys. I'm not sorry. I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing right now. Absolutely. And that, that's really key. I think that's really key. Don't be apologetic about your work. Just stop trying to multitask all the time. I talk about monotask, you know, and the research again shows over and over we are better, less stressed, and more productive when we do one thing at a time.

That is a huge lesson for all of us because we've become multitaskers, and I I see how it's not good for my brain. I feel like I'm like this, harried, instead of just focusing on one thing. So I completely agree with the research because I feel it when I'm multitasking.

Absolutely. And I always say to people, just because you can or just because you are like the best at it doesn't mean that that has to be your go-to thing. To me, multitasking is like red flag alarm. When you absolutely need to, of course you can, of course I can too. But I don't want that to be my normal speed. That is an exception, not a rule. And when I started, you know, really practicing that, um, I'm so much happier. And, and like, it's funny because even my husband thinks— he thinks it's kind of annoying, actually, I can tell you. Like, because he'll come in and if I'm doing something Like, I won't look up sometimes because I'm thinking, you just invaded my space. I'm in the middle of a sentence and I don't want my brain— my brain can easily be very distracted and scattered if I let it be, if I'm not disciplined, right? So he'll stand there now, he'll stand there more patiently. I'll finish the sentence or whatever the paragraph it even could be, then I'll look up and I'll be like, hey. But I'm a big person, like, knock. You know, because then I can tell you, or ask me, when do you have a moment today? Well, and I'm talking, I'm saying this too because we've just been a year of both working under the same roof, right? Oh my goodness. That's a whole lot of disruption.

Oh my gosh. Can we talk about why women feel guilty asking for help? You talk about that too and how We, we need people and we need help, but we feel like we have to do it all. Where, where do you think that that comes from?

Yeah, this is, this definitely a big one, but again, a whole chapter in Mommy Burnout devoted to being able to ask for help. And then when it comes to you, receive it. Because we'll ask for it and then you'll say, it'd be like, Rebecca, you think you could blah, blah, blah for me? And then you'll say, like, this is a totally true example. The other night, I have to take an allergy, I have to take Zyrtec, basically one every night. And I— and they're so expensive, as anybody knows, like one month's supply, it's like $30 or something. So I said, you know, I think at Costco, you can get a 365-day supply, I think, for literally $30. Like, but we don't have a Costco membership. I said, maybe we should get a membership. And then my husband said, Or you could just ask somebody with a membership to just, when they're there, to go get you the allergy meds. And I definitely paused, like, I'm not going to inconvenience a mom asking about— all right. And I had the whole story go through my head and it's been like 2 days till I feel comfortable being like, okay, I am not a big Costco. I don't need that kind of stuff. I'm not going to ask them. I've never in my life asked anybody to get me something. So maybe you can do it. Right. So even me, I still had to be like, because what happens is guilt. You don't want to ask other, particularly moms, for help, or your own mom sometimes, or your mother-in-law, because you think they're already so what? Busy. Yeah. They all, right. They have their own kids. They have their own shopping to do. They have their own to-do list. We all know what that's like. You have your crazy long to-do list, or you go to the grocery store and you already have 50 things on there. I need to be number 51 for you. Oh, I gotta remember to go look in this gigantic store for allergy meds for this person, right? I know. So it's like, those are the things that stop us. However, truly, I encourage everybody to do it, including my own self, even if I have to talk 2 days myself into asking someone to buy me a bottle of pills. Because what, what that does is it creates space for intimacy for us, because maybe the next time now you need a favor, You're going to ask me maybe a totally different favor. It doesn't have to do with running to the store, maybe watch your kids, maybe drop them off for an hour or something. And I'm going to feel awesome about it in my head. Probably I'll be feeling like, oh good, I'm somewhat repairing you, repaying you, or I'm really happy to do this for you. And now all of a sudden we've created a thing where it's like, it's okay to ask me for things and I'm going to show up for you and vice versa. It creates stronger bonds and intimacy. We just have to get to the point where we do it. And we're socialized basically to be able to do it all ourselves. Well, we can't.

We think we can help other people, but we don't necessarily accept the help from others the other way around, which, you know, is going to make people feel bad. People don't realize that, that if we're always the giver and they're never, you know, if it's not reciprocal, we make people feel bad, which I try to remind myself.

It's so true though, right? You do feel good when somebody says, Hey, I've been wanting to ask you this favor. It's like, oh my gosh, I must be like special. You know, you're asking me, or I must be giving you an impression that you can ask me, which makes me feel good. Yes.

Yes. You described, you used the words lonely generation, like we're creating this lonely generation. And I actually talked to my husband about it last night because I was so sad reading this because I see it. And my son, would rather game with his friends for 12 hours a day if I let him instead of go and see any of them. And we're all hiding behind technology, social media. Like, how do we get our kids and ourselves away from it?

It is such a challenging time right, right now. So as we're speaking, because hopefully this, the conversation will be around for years, It is the end of March and we're still in a pandemic. We've been in it for over a year now. And so this is a unique time. When I first wrote about loneliness, when I've been talking to, since about 2019, about loneliness in young people particularly, you know, there were different times. So what I would say right now is we are going to need like probably an international detox. Yeah, we are going to need to reach out to our families and our friends. Touch— I mean, literally touch helps us grow. Like, we're going to need to touch and hug. And I've been seeing that a lot when people are all vaccinated and they're like, I can't wait to hug you, right? Um, and so I think it's going to be an interesting time that for adults are going to need to do it too. I mean, I saw a great article also over the weekend, maybe maybe the Wall Street Journal somewhere, a really good article about we don't know when to stop working anymore. Right? So what does this all come down to again? In some ways it's like intimacy and boundaries. And we are going to need, we hopefully have been telling our kids, okay, the amount of screen time you're getting is not for, this isn't a forever situation. This is temporary. But when you can see those friends, like I, that is a phrase that comes out of my mouth. To my own son as well. I'll say like the doorbell will ring and let's say he's gaming and he gives me that look for a second. Like, no, I don't, I don't want to, I want to stay in. And I'm like, oh no, no, no. When there's a live human being that is your friend that I know you want to spend time with, technology's done. Human beings always come first. Even if you're sort of, I don't know what we're going to do. I don't care what you're going to do. You're going to go outside. You're going to mask up. You're going to throw a ball at each other, whatever you're going to do. And so I think be really unrelenting about that. That human connection is utmost importance. And so this is an interesting divide between the mental health crisis we're in and the lack of real connection crisis that we're in. The next 3 to 5 years are going to be really interesting.

I know. It's been a very hard year for social connection. And I am sad for my kids because— It's been a long year. You know, they're talking about sending my kids back to school 5 days a week. I'm not even sure it's going to happen, but I think that they're going to be like, oh wow, I'm going to be around people 5 days a week. Like, this is weird.

It is. Yes, that is very funny. So I'm in Colorado, and about 2 or 3 weeks ago they started more of a mass majority started sending kids in 5 days a week. And that week and the week leading up, I did several media segments about it because I think parents want to believe that it's going to be like, oh great, hallelujah, put on your mask and go to school. Those kids are so anxious. Who is my friend? Yes. Who am I going to sit next to? Who do I talk to? Teachers are going to have masks on. We have to sit 3 feet apart at lunch. Do you even have lunch? It's like starting kindergarten again, but you could be 11, 8, 15. You don't, you know, you're not 5 years old where you've been prepped for this moment and we pretty much know what it's going to be like. We don't know what it's going to be like. So for anybody who, like in your position, they don't have their kids in yet full-time, treat this as a novel new first day of whatever grade they're in. And remember that the anxiety is so high right now.

So high, so normal for what they've been through this year.

Yes, yes, understandably high. We have to help them through it.

Yes. So getting back to the moms, can you leave the moms with just one of your favorite tips to just feel less overwhelmed in their lives?

I would say I'm going to, of course, go to your friendships. If you don't have a friend, You don't have a best friend, create your community. They will come. You don't have a village, build it. They will come. There are thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of other women in your shoes who either maybe never had intimacy like that in a friendship or who did have a best friend, but then lost them. There are so many people who are craving community. And connection and their own little village. And so, I really always say to people, because you'll see if you watch the TEDx talk, there are thousands of comments and a lot of people saying, "I don't have this. I don't have a friend. I don't have anybody who would call or who would care." And this is internationally. And so, I say to them, they create something, I promise you they're going to come. They're craving it. They want it. Those would be my parting words. And what does that look like? That could mean through your church, that could mean through a social media post. Hey, let's all meet up at this park. That could mean through going out of your comfort zone, maybe host a happy hour outside when this, when the weather's nicer, structure it up, start a book club. Doesn't matter. Women get together, they start talking. Doesn't matter why you brought them together. Um, right. You, you see these social things. Women are selling jewelry. Women are selling beauty products. Whatever. Doesn't matter. There's food, there's usually wine, and there's hours of women talking because that's all we want, right? And just keep being consistent with it. Don't just do it once and then it drops off. Say every month I'm going to do this, or how about I want to create a group and every month we rotate who hosts. We'll call it Women's Night, we'll call it Mom's Night, whatever you want to call it. But you will draw, you will bring people in, and you do have communities that you belong to. You just don't realize it. The the school that your kids go to, that's a community. If you go to some sort of faith practice, that's a community, right? If you work at a certain place, that's a community. So think that way and just build it. They will come.

Such good advice. Such good advice. I love it. Can you tell everyone where to go find you?

Yes. So you can, you can buy Mommy Burnout anywhere that books are sold. And if you do, please write a review. That's so important, right? We're always looking to go, what do other people think? But, um, you can find— I have a newsletter I do, and it's called Notes from the Couch, and I only send it out twice a month. But that are— they're my notes from the couch. They are what's happening in my practice. And so people really tend— I will say, actually, I think people really like that. So you can find me at drcherylziegler.com.

Awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. It was wonderful getting to know you and learning so much of your wisdom.

Oh, thank you so much, and thanks for having me.

This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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