Episode 196: Unpacking the 9 Types on the Enneagram Personality Test

No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza!

Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza Podcast with Rebecca Green. Welcome to the Whiny Palooza Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Green. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family. Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I am so excited to have Alice Freiling here with me today. Alice, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

I'm excited to be here.

Um, I'm going to tell you a little bit about Alice. She is a wonderful lady. Alice is a spiritual director and author. She and her husband worked with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship for over 50 years. Alice has also been actively involved in church ministry and teaching workshops on the Enneagram and Myers-Briggs temperament inventory. Her books on relationships, Spiritual Formation and Spiritual Direction have sold over half a million copies and are published in over 10 languages. She and her husband Bob are parents of 2 daughters and grandparents of 2 grandsons and 2 granddaughters. They live in Monument, Colorado, and you can learn more about Alice Freyling at www.alicefreyling.com. Well, Alice, this is very impressive. Oh my goodness, you have lots of experience. We are going to benefit from you, but you know that I want to focus on the Enneagram today.

That's great. That's what I want to focus on today.

So can you tell everyone what the Enneagram is and why is it so helpful?

It is such an interesting paradigm. When I first heard about the Enneagram I was very familiar with Myers-Briggs, and that had been very helpful to me. And then somebody came along and said the Enneagram, and it's like 9 numbers. And I thought, well, the letters were good. I think I'd want to learn about the numbers, a new way to cook chicken, that kind of thing.

Yes.

So, I started with the Enneagram probably, oh, I think at least 30 years ago.

Wow.

And I have just found it to be phenomenally helpful. So in a nutshell, the Enneagram is a description of 9 ways that people view life. Um, Ennea means 9 and Gram means point. So it's 9 points of view. And most of us, I mean, there are only a few people that are really aware that we have a point of view. And if we're aware we have a point of view, we think it's everyone else's point of view. So already it's helpful just to see these 9 categories. Um, but the Enneagram takes it a step beyond, I think, most of the, um, just temperamental descriptions. It starts out describing our gifts, so, you know, it's 9 categories of gifts. But then it goes beyond that because the thesis is that when we're under stress, we overplay our gifts. And that's such an interesting way to say it. And When I first realized that, I thought, whoa, this says a lot about me. And then the Enneagram also gives a very brief description— I would call it an invitation— where each of the 9 spaces can go to help overcome their compulsive use of their gifts. Wow. So we can start there and go wherever you'd like to go.

Um, so I didn't know —what the actual word meant, so thank you for explaining that to us. And there's 9 different spaces, there's 9 different types. Can we go through what each type is? Yes, I think—

I mean, because when I do workshops on this, or, you know, I don't do as many now because I'm older, but when I used to do a lot of workshops on this, I would always allow 6 or 7 hours. So I don't think you have that kind of time today.

Oh my goodness, so we could really deep dive into this. Well, yeah, right. I mean, not today, not today, not today.

No. So, um, let me just give the 9 titles and then we can unpack them sort of in our conversation when it's appropriate. So, um, the number 1 person— oh, and let me just say one other thing about this. One of the objections that people have to something like the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs is, well, I just don't want you to put me in a box. Right. Which is true. And, and I have a little chip on my shoulder when I sense that people are doing that. Oh, well, I know you're just like that because you're on number whatever, you know. And that's not what the Enneagram is about. It's descriptive rather than prescriptive. And that's a really important perspective when you enter the Enneagram. So I'm going to give the 9 boxes or pieces of the pie on the circle of the Enneagram. And then we can just unpack them as you want to. So the number 1 person is what we would commonly call the perfectionist. It's, you know, life has to be perfect. And the number 1 person gets pretty angry when life is not perfect or when they're not perfect. The number 2 person, in my book on the Enneagram, I call it the caring nurturer. Probably a more common term would just be the helper. This is the person who gets a lot of energy from helping people. And they're pretty proud of it. And the number 3 person is the successful achiever. And when I think about, you know, the Enneagram in all of the spaces, you can say, oh, this would be just a great person to have on your committee at church or your PTA or whatever, you know. So the, the successful achiever gets things done. Um, the risk is that they think they get more done than they do get done. So, you know, we can unpack all of that. That's not good. The number 4 person is the sensitive, creative person. And I happen to be a number 4, for better and for worse. In all of the spaces, there are parts that we love. I mean, I love being a number 4, but I hate being a number 4 because the downside is I'm so sensitive that I have a lot of self-doubt and a lot comparing myself to other people. The number 5 person is the wise, perceptive observer. And this is the person, my husband is a number 5. This person just loves to scarf in and scarf in information. It's a bottomless pit. And so they can sometimes seem a little distant because they're busy thinking about all the information that's floating around outside their brain and wanting to get it in their brain. Interesting, okay. The number 6 person is very loyal, very sensitive to authority. The number 7 person is very joyful, loves to have fun, can never have enough fun. And the number 8 person is the leader, often very strong, often very challenging. And then the number 9 person is the easygoing peacemaker. And again, that's something that we love. But number 9s will tell you that there's a downside to that. So that's the Cliff Notes of the Cliff Notes of the Enneagram.

No, that's really good. I, it sounds like there are pluses and minuses to all 9.

Absolutely. 100%.

Yes. Now, can you be more than one?

Well, that's an interesting thing about the Enneagram, and this would be, I have the 6-hour introductory workshop and then there's the advanced workshop. So your question dips into the advanced workshop. I mean, they're the arrows, and if you get into the Enneagram, you'll learn about the wings, the number on each side. And so there we all— it's like a rainbow. We all have a little bit of the colors as they kind of morph into each other. But that said, it's very helpful if you can zero in on your particular space. And I'm going to end-run you on your next question. How do we know our space?

What about the tests? Well, and I have to tell you, I haven't taken the test in many, many years. So, so, so my question for you that I wanted to ask you today is how often do you think we should be taking the test?

Like how often? How many vaccines should you have during a pandemic?

Was that a hard question?

Actually, truth be told, I am not a huge fan of the tests. Oh, so maybe I can relieve you from the pressure to take more tests. Um, they're very helpful when they're accurate. Um, the tests— well, some of the tests aren't all that accurate, and so then they can be misleading. So if you come out on a test and you say, oh man, I'm a number 1, I'll be a perfectionist for the rest of my life, that's that may not be helpful information, right? The other thing is that the tests depend on a certain degree of self-awareness, and a lot of times people don't like their space. So, I mean, I, I actually have a friend who always said he was a number 7, and then as he kind of grew— and that's a joyful, happy person— as he grew in self-awareness, he realized he was really a number 4, which is the person that notices what's missing, a little melancholic. I mean, that was a pretty dramatic change. Yeah. So I don't know if he took a test and figured out he was a number 7, but I think as we get older and we let the Enneagram kind of speak to us and tell us what we're doing— I mean, why we're doing it, actually— um, we grow in self-awareness, and that's really the best best way to determine your space.

That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, based on your experience and seeing people identify what space they are, how are you seeing people use the space? You know, like, if I know I'm a number, whatever, how can we then use that to help us in our everyday life?

I— the Enneagram is almost a way of looking at life for me. Um, so that I have absorbed this perspective. Um, so when I, um, well, I mean, the thesis of the Enneagram, that when we are under stress, we overplay our gifts. So I think the most, the broadest answer to your question would be when we start noticing in a relationship that we're getting more pushback than we think we deserve, then we can ask ourselves, Okay, am I overplaying my gift? Let's— okay, this is what I wanted to do to kind of unpack. I'll use one space as an example. Yeah, so I'll use the number 8 space. That's the leader person, the challenger. Um, they often are leaders in military and business, um, and they're one— I mean, they make the world go round, so they're great people. But when they overplay their gift, we all know what that's like. It when it boils down to it's my way or the highway. So an aware, self-aware Number 8 is a wonderful person because it's hard for them to be self-aware. If a Number 8 is self-aware and they start saying, "I just can't understand what's wrong with these people. They won't listen to the logic behind what I'm saying," then they would say, "Oh, wait a minute, maybe I'm not saying it in the best way, or maybe I am communicating that there's no other way to look at this." So then you— the number 8 person might say, well, give me a little feedback about what we're talking about here. And that changes the dynamics right away.

That's amazing. I really want to look over a test and look over the numbers and reevaluate myself because like I said, I took it many, many— like maybe like 20 years ago. And I, you know, I'm a social worker and I wonder how many social workers are a number 2. And I want to shift to parenting because what I'm finding, if I am still a number 2, I'm going to guess that I am because under stress, I want to take care of my family and do too much. And my youngest child is like, I'm independent, like basically back off, like let me do this. So I'm learning that my number 2 isn't necessarily working to help them become independent, well-functioning kids. Do you know what I'm saying? Oh, yes. So I'm learning to back off is what I'm saying.

And there would certainly be some people who would say, well, that's a good— that's very age-appropriate to back off from your kids as they get older. But as a Number 2, if you are a Number 2, that's a special challenge. It's like letting go of part of your identity. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, the Enneagram is amazingly helpful in parenting. Um, even if you don't know, I mean, our kids are always growing and changing and I'm not real happy. I'm not real happy with the Enneagram with, I wouldn't want to put any child in a box, but looking at it as a rainbow, you can say, oh, you know what? My child is acting a lot like a number 6 today. And the number 6 is authority, is real important, really important. And, you know, my child is really acting like— so what can I learn from the number 6 space about how to help my child? And that would be to ask your child, what are you afraid of? How can I help you have more courage about this? I mean, you're going to have to go back to school tomorrow and face this same teacher. What gives you courage? It's just amazing. The words of the Enneagram can open up a whole conversation.

That's amazing. I mean, as you're describing the number 4 and the number 5, you know, like I'm labeling my kids as you're talking. So if being a number 4, if my youngest is a number 4, what do you think would be helpful for me to know to parent her more effectively?

Oh, lots and lots and lots. My parents would have never heard of the Enneagram, and I don't think they would have respected it. And I was a lonely number 4 in our family because I couldn't figure out why am I so different. I mean, that's what number 4s want, to be different. We want to be special. And then when we are different and special, it's like nobody understands me. I mean, I'm still inclined in that direction, but at least I know what I'm doing. I love it. Number 4s have a lot of self-doubt. They tend to notice what's missing. So, how was school today? Oh, it was all right, but Jamie stole my pencil. You know, that's the big thing of the day. I imagine in, you know, I think in my life, and as our kids become teenagers, dating would become a landmine for a Number 4. Oh boy, he loves me, he loves me not. Oh Lord. Yeah, but what I love and what my husband gives— my husband, after 51 years of marriage, understands my senses or some of my sensitivities. Never all of them. Number 4s are never totally understood, but he respects my sensitivity without drowning with me in it. So he, you know, he'll say, "That must have been exhausting for for you. But he won't say, oh, poor you, you're never going to get out of this hole. And number 4 is love to be creative. So creativity gives me a lot of energy. Yes. I mean, I went through my watercolor, my oil painting, my acrylic painting, sewing. And I figured out as a grandma that I needed to do— I'm not a cuchicu grandma. I don't like to play games. I don't like sports. I don't like to read books out loud. So I thought, I need to figure out what I like to do. Yeah. And then offer that to my grandchildren. And I think it's probably— this is probably true for mothers and fathers too. So I immediately thought, I love to create anything. I mean, even if I don't want what I'm creating. So my— now my granddaughter, when we moved to Colorado, my granddaughter and I figured out what she liked to do. She likes to sew, she likes to cook, Those are her two creative things. She likes to paint some. So I do those things with her, and that gives me joy and it gives her joy. And there's nothing selfish about that. It's just what I love to do and connecting with her.

No, that's good advice for all of us, for parents too. I mean, yes, my husband would get on the floor and play with them, and I was like, I don't want to do that.

What do you want to do that for?

I don't want to play Barbies on the floor. Right, right. Yeah. So I like that advice, but, um, let's shift to marriage because I think this can be so helpful in parenting and in marriage, as you know. So can you give us some advice on how to use this, maybe with an example, to, um, you know, improve our relationships?

Well, okay, so you, you lit up several buttons on my computer. What did I do? I think, um, the Enneagram definitely enriches a marriage, and an enriched marriage enriches our children. So it's, it's really all connected. Um, it sounds like what you were talking about was in particular about the enriching our marriage part. Yes. And my husband is a number 4— I'm number, number 5, and I am a number 4. And not to confuse things more, but just to add another layer to the Enneagram, instead of the 9 spaces, it can also be divided up into triads with 3 spaces in each triad. So my husband is in the head triad and I am in the heart triad. Okay. And that hap— there, you know, there's quite a bit of difference there. I mean, we can understand each other and all that kind of stuff, but he comes in at life with a head perspective. And what does— what he thinks about it matters more than what he feels about it. Especially, I mean, now that we're both older, we're, we're nuancing that a little bit differently. Um, so we raised two girls, and they happen to be girls in Myers-Briggs terms who are both feelers. So Bob's the only thinker in the family. Oh boy, we needed that. I mean, we so need that balance. But he found that sometimes I was the better voice with our children. Now, if he had happened to be a number 8, that would have been a hard— because that's the powerful person— that would have been a hard position because, you know, the number 8 is usually what— whoever, a man or a woman, usually in charge of the family. And that doesn't always work. So, um, I I probably still am a little bit more of the voice to our daughters and our grandchildren, but we've learned to appreciate and to value all that he has to offer. And the other thing in marriage is that when we know the— our spouse's Enneagram space, we can provide more of a place where they can flourish. So for Bob to sit and read a book is good for him. It's not as good for me. So we respect that about each other. Um, and that would be true, like, I have— we have friends who, um, she's a number 1 and they have a lot of number 7 in their relationship, having fun and everything. And they are just the sweetest couple. They have so much fun, and yet they balanced it with her number one needing things to be done perfectly and in order.

So, so how do you have a number one perfectionist and fun? How does that happen? Does it happen?

It does. I mean, I see it. I see it in their marriage relationship. That's awesome. And then as you unlayer or go down deeper into the Enneagram, you'll see how that's actually— the number 1 and the number 7 actually do have a connection. And it's very— when a number 1 is under stress, they tend to be perfectionists. Yes. And the Enneagram will say it's really helpful to bring in more fun in your life. So the number fun— the number 7 spouse can say, let's go on a picnic, and the number 1 spouse says, it's not on my agenda. But the Enneagram would say, well, just go on the picnic anyhow, and it works.

Such a good balance.

It is, it's quite amazing. Yeah.

Well, so, okay, so you mentioned head and heart. What is the third one?

Gut. Gut. So yeah, so to tell— I mean, the triads really are very helpful. And for people who are just getting into the Enneagram, I often just suggest just look at the triads and figure out what triad you're in. Yeah, so the Gut Triad includes the 1, 9, and 8. It's at the top of the circle. Okay, so the Enneagram isn't into being numerical in that way. So 1, 9, and 8. And the Heart Triad includes the 2, 3, and 4. And the Head Triad includes the 5, 6, and 7. And I've noticed that, I mean, as the Enneagram has become more and more popular, um, Of course, there are more and more books, and I don't see a lot of books— I mean, this is part of classic Enneagram teaching, but I think you might need to get a book from the early 1990s, early, you know, 20th century. Some of the newer ones go into a lot of, um, subtypes, and to me it takes away from the simplicity and the beauty of the Enneagram. And so I would start with the triads, then go into the spaces. Um, so I'm— oh, I'm sorry.

No, go ahead. Um, I'm hoping this question isn't too hard. As you're talking about all of the spaces, do you feel like you can go through each one and tell us the main challenge with each one? Because I think that will help people identify what they are.

Okay, you interrupt me if— I mean, it's a little risky to ask me to do this because it does take 6 hours, but I'll try to do it in 6 minutes.

Okay, we're doing the super abridged version, right?

Absolutely. But you're right that people just want to say, well, just help me figure out where I fit or where my husband fits. So I'm actually going to start with the number 2 because we'll do the 2, 3, and 4, and that's the heart triad. So, the number 2 person is the helper person, the nurturer. They're very, very loving. They get energy from helping. I have a number 2 daughter and that just fascinated me. I mean, she was into babysitting. She was like Mary Poppins going to the door with all her toys and age-appropriate toys. And I just, you know, I just wanted to say that is so much trouble. And then, of course, it was trouble for me if she didn't put away when she came home. So, you know, but they get energy from loving people. The downside of it is they're really proud of it, and they're proud of the fact that I know what you need, but I'm not going to tell you what I need, or you don't know what I need, therefore I'm just like, I got one up on you. Okay, so what the Enneagram— the word that the Enneagram uses to describe— I want to say the way out. I think of it as a grace, um, to each space The grace to the number 2 is humility, and that counteracts— counters the pride. It's like, I'm not as important or as great as I think I am. And so then your love comes from that place, and, and it's a different place. I mean, sometimes number 2 people can be so in your face.

That's interesting because I don't take pride in it, I take joy in it. Um, that's interesting. I'm thinking about it as you're saying it.

That— and that's, that's, that's— so actually, I say, okay, the Enneagram worked. You got a little bit of self-awareness on that, and that is true. I would say, oh yes, take joy. It gives you energy. Of course you're going to take joy. Yes. But what happens when somebody— I'm not talking— I'm not asking you this question, but for a Number 2, the roadblock would be if someone doesn't want their help. And then you kind of get— I'm not saying you— a number 2 might just get a little bit huffy. But I know what you need more than you know what you need, therefore you should be taking my help. And the humility would be, I think I know what you need, but I want to hear you. I want to hear from you how I can be helpful to you. That's interesting.

At 26, yes. At 46, I'm more tired.

So that's good if you don't need my help. That's right. Yes. No, actually, that's a, you know, I think I mentioned to you in the email that I just wrote a book on aging and I think the Enneagram, I mean, I don't think we change spaces, but we experience our gifts and our compulsions in different ways as we get older. Yes. So should I go on to the number 3?

Yes. Yes. I'll be quiet.

Yes. No, no. So the number 3 is a successful achiever. And, um, let's see, how can I say this? Number 3s are effective people. They get things done and they, they're successful and they get energy from being successful. I mean, all of these things describe humanity, so I'm not saying only the number 3s get energy from being successful. Um, the problem is they sometimes lie about their successes. I mean, the Enneagram is not about giving compliments. I think the Enneagram, at its best, describes us at our worst. Sorry about that. No, no, no, I like this. The Enneagram— the number 3 person, um, if you're aware of this, sometimes you can just hear it when a number 3 talks. Um, oh, I might— we'll take it as a college student. I might not have done very well on that exam, but the professor didn't know what he was talking about. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You can see a lot of number 3 behavior in political spins. So just in terms of an example in our society, I mean, across the board. So the gift or the grace to the number 3 is truth. It's telling the truth. To yourself. Usually a lot of these Enneagram spaces describe more about what we want to say to ourselves than what we want to say to other people. I knew a number 3 who was a nurse, and she kept going up the corporate ladder, and she was a really, really respected person in her field. And she got an offer for a job offer for the next step up the ladder, and she said, I really need to think about that because I'm not sure it would be good for my soul. Which was interesting. That's—

that sounds like maturity to me.

That's about as self-aware as you could get. And I think she did decide to take the job, but she took it with a whole different perspective than if she thought, well, yes, now everybody's discovering me, I'm going to show them. So the number 4 person we've talked about a little bit, that's the creative person. And it can be creative in any— I mean, it can be art, music, writing, interior design, you know, or just, just decorating your living room. You can do that with a lot of joy. But the number 4 person tends to look at other people and say, they have more than I have, or I'm not as good as they are. And so envy is considered the compulsion of the number 4. So when they're under stress they're likely to say, oh, everybody else has it better than I do, even though they spent most of their life trying to prove how unique they are. So they kind of sabotage themselves. And I love— now let me think, I got to get the right, um, the, the grace to the number 4 is equanimity. And I want to give you the Enneagram definition of that. I hope I get this right. It's, um, having the spaciousness of heart to feel what needs to be felt and not get stuck there. Wow. Okay, I didn't make that up. I mean, I've read so many Enneagram books, so that's— that was the definition that I thought described me. I need to be able to notice what's going on in my heart and not get stuck there, and that helps me be a more loving person. Um, so stop me or push me ahead, I'm going to go to the number 5 now. Yes, please. Yes. The number 5 person is, is really is a wise person. And I know people say, well, when, when Bob and I used to do a lot of premarital counseling, we'd meet with a young couple in our living room, and I'd just be pouring my heart out trying to draw them out and find out what their relationship was like. And Bob would just be sitting there. Sometimes number 5s even close their eyes so they can think better. But Bob and I'd be thinking, come on, come on, help me a little, help me. And then We would have been with this couple maybe for an hour or two, and then Bob would say, he'd sit back and he'd say, "Well, it seems to me that the main thing going on here is such and such." So, and I think, well, he was there after all. And then they'd get up to leave, and 9 times out of 10, they would say, "Oh, thank you so much. This was so helpful. I mean, it was all helpful, but what Bob said at the end was really the most helpful." So I'm eating humble pie. But that's their gift. Yeah. Um, the problem, the compulsion of the number 5, is that they're, they're greedy with taking in more and more information, and they feel like they're never done. So I can— if you have an hour, I can tell you everything I'm thinking right now, but tomorrow I might have more information. So they're always wanting to take in more information. And the grace to the number 5 is a confusing word to Bob It's detachment. And that's confusing because sometimes the number 5s seem detached from the relationship, but this is detachment from the information. Oh, it's saying, okay, I have enough information now to write this article, or even if I take in more information, I may not do better on the exam. And number, number 5s, that's hard for them to do. To detach from their compulsion to get more and more information. Interesting.

Sounds a lot like my husband.

Our husbands should meet and compare notes. They would love each other. It's true. I mean, Bob, Bob can spot a number 5. He said to me this morning, he was talking about an author that he's really enjoying, he said, I'm sure he's a number 5. So there is a kindred spirit there. That's awesome. So the number 6 is called the Loyalist. This is the person who is very sensitive to authority and really wants to obey authority and to do things right. Either obey authority, or there's a category of the number 6 and they would push back. I will not— that's called a counterphobic number 6. But they would put— but it's, it's less than those. It's easier to start out just saying, okay, these are the people who live under authority want you to live under authority, and they're happy about it. Um, the compulsion is fear. You know, if for a Number 6, if there's a sign on the lawn that says don't walk on the grass, you walk down the middle of the sidewalk. And for some of the rest of us, say, you know, one person over the grass today isn't going to make any difference, but they're afraid to walk on the grass. I mean, I'm overstating it. But sometimes that's how we get there. So for the number 6 person, they're looking for courage, or the grace is courage to live life beyond their fear. I was meeting with someone for spiritual direction several years ago who was trying to decide about a job change that would also involve moving, moving out of the area, and She just, she just couldn't figure it out. And because of the Enneagram, even if I hadn't known she was a number 6, the Enneagram would have reminded me to say, you know, what are you afraid of? And poof, she, that opened up the conversation.

As you're talking, I'm picturing all the people in my life and where they are.

You're talking. Yeah. My colleague and I who taught these workshops together, used to say, we sometimes do this with our dogs. Really gets under your skin. That's funny. Yeah. Well, it's not true, but it's funny. Yeah. So the number 7 person is the joyful person. They love to have fun. The downside is gluttony. They can never have enough fun. They probably can never have enough stuff. They never can have enough experiences. When I went to Enneagram workshops, you know, learning about this as a participant, there was one workshop I went to, it was several weeks long. And at the end of the workshop, each time it was weekends. And at the end of the weekend, I'd, you know, I'd be ready. I'd be wiped out, ready to go home. And you'd look around and you think, where are the number 7s? Oh, they were already out having dinner. They love it. And that's good for me to know that not all number 7s are extroverts. Most of them are extroverts, but I do know number 7s who are introverts. And the one particular one I know the best, he just loves to have fun all by himself at home, you know. So I wouldn't want to generalize about going out to dinner, but at a workshop he would have known what he was going to do when he got home that was going to be a lot of fun, get him out of this. So the sobriety is the grace to the number 7, and that's the Enough is enough, and I don't need this to make me happy or to give me energy. I can go beyond. It's all really— I can go— I can hold loosely my gifts, and I can go beyond my compulsions. Um, so the number 8, we've talked about a little bit. That's the powerful person, the challenger, and the compulsion for them is lust. They never have enough power. Um, and it's interesting, a lot of the Enneagram words, you think, well, sobriety, that's that's alcohol in Alcoholics Anonymous, lust, that's in sexual abuse. And I wouldn't necessarily make that connection. Um, so I'm just saying it's the Enneagram verbiage. We don't want to be misled by Enneagram verbiage, although it's always a source of insight. Um, so for the, for the number 8, the gift is innocence, which if you talk to a number 8 leader really strong, maybe compulsive number 8 leader and suggested to them that they'd be like a little child? How insulting would that be? And yet how life-giving it could be. You know, even Jesus said, "Let the little children come unto me." You know, so there is something about childhood-type innocence that can be very life-giving to a number 8, to all of us. And then the number 9 is a really interesting person. This is the Peacemaker, the easygoing Peacemaker, and they love nothing more than peace in relationships. And this— the problem with this is it's really hard for them to make a decision. In fact, I was just talking— my hairdresser, I was just talking with her, so I'm coming about the Enneagram, and she said she can't figure out what she is. And, you know, I got several haircuts over trying to figure out listen to her process. And I said, you know, you might want to look at the number 9. So I came back the next time and she said, you're not going to believe it, I'm a number 9. But she couldn't come to that decision because she kept asking people, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? So that's pretty typical for a number 9. The compulsion for the number 9 is— some people call it laziness or sloth. I want to be at peace. I don't want to ruffle any feathers. 'So I'll just sit here on the sofa until things settle down.' And then maybe they never will settle down. But underneath that sloth— this is the interesting part for a Number 9— underneath their peacefulness, there's almost always a lot of angry energy. Because in order to be at peace with people, you have to stuff a lot of your opinions. And they don't even know they have those opinions. So the Enneagram is a great learning experience. And the gift or the grace to the number 9 is taking action. So just take action. And if you fall on your face, if you ruffle some feathers, you know what, you can handle it. So, okay, that's the Cliff Notes of the Cliff Notes again.

No, can we do number 1? Because we—

oh, we didn't do number 1.

We started with number 2. Oh yes, this is the problem.

I say this in workshops. I'm sorry, number ones, I'm offending you because I'm going to start with a number 2. Glad you caught that. So the number 1 is the perfectionist, and these are really good people. They like to do things well, both morally, logistically, sometimes just being tidy. I mean, whatever it is, they do things well. So they're good people to have on your team. But if they, if things are not going well, they're most likely angry with themselves, but they'd also be angry with other people. And it just, it's a kind of anger that, um, I think of someone that, you know, I know, and, um, he was very, very, very helpful on a team. And then all of a sudden, a couple of people on the team disagreed with him, and he went ballistic. I mean, I had no— it just, it's like, I don't even know what happened here, and I don't know how to relate to him anymore because this is not who I thought he was. And that's an extreme of a number 1's anger, but it can happen. And so sometimes when I see that kind of anger, I mean, like with this person on the team, I thought, okay, I wonder if he's a number 1. And that gave me a lot of compassion I have enough perfectionism in me to know how difficult it is to hold that loosely. So it gave me compassion and helped us through the rough waters. And the grace of the gift to the number 1 is serenity. And serenity is a non-reactivity to life. I said that in a group I was teaching about the Enneagram. I said, 'It's around you, just— it's a non-reactivity.' And the number 1s in the group went, 'Oh!' You know, it's like, I can't do that. All of life is up for reaction. Oh my gosh. So, you know, when I see reactivity in my own life, I think, okay, I'm probably acting like a number 1 here. What can I learn about this? I mean, it's not always that linear, but it doesn't— even the other spaces inform me as well as my own space.

I love this stuff so much. As you know, this is amazing information. I, I want to do like a deep dive. So tell us, tell us like books, tell us about your book and tell us like your favorite Enneagram book.

Oh, my favorite Enneagram book is my book.

Yes. Tell us about your book.

My book is, it's called, um, Mirror for the Soul: A Christian Guide to the Enneagram. So I do come— I, I speak about the Enneagram from my own Christian perspective, but I, I, I wanted to make the Enneagram accessible to people who didn't know about it. So, and that's the feedback that I'm getting, that it is helping people get the Enneagram. Um, right at the same time that my book was published, another book was published by the same publisher, um, Ian Cron. And his book is— it's about the road. I can't remember the name of it, but Ian Cron, C-R-O-N. And the reason I'm mentioning him is that he has a very good podcast. Um, he's entertaining, so he's fun to listen to, like you. He's fun to listen to. Um, and you could— his podcast, I think, is called Typology. Okay, with Ian Cron. And they're more podcasts on that, whatever you call it. His podcast has more— whatever, what do you call it? Just like what, interviews, I guess. Yes. Then, I mean, you could listen to those for hours. So I'd recommend that. Those would probably be the two that come to mind.

And can they find your book like on Amazon? Where can they find it?

Yeah, both Ian Cron's book and my book would be on Amazon, and my book is in libraries and stuff like that. So I think it's pretty— I hope it's success— successful. I mean, I hope it's accessible. I'm sure.

Um, well, I mean, I've asked you a ton of questions. Do you have anything else that you want to share that I didn't ask you?

That's the best question. I'll make it quick. I did mention that I just just wrote this book on aging. It's called Aging Faithfully: The Holy Invitation of Getting Older. And as I was thinking about our conversation today, I thought writing that book is a good example of what happens in Enneagram terminology as we get older. So I'm 78 now, and I started the book, um, 3 years ago, right after I turned 75. And I thought, I just want a book to help me figure out What happens inside myself? A number 4 question. What happens inside? I don't want somebody to tell me about financial planning or retirement issues. And I couldn't find the book that I wanted. And so, I was sitting there one day and I thought, you know what, I'm going to write the book. And so, I pulled out a piece of scrap paper and I just jotted down an outline. If I were to write the book, what would I say? And that became the book. And I thought, what a lovely opportunity for me to be so creative with words at my age. You know, I'm not going out and doing some of the other creative things I did when I was younger, but what a gift to me. And it has been a gift. So I think, and as I, again, thinking about our conversation, I thought knowing the Enneagram, I think, could help people with their aging parents, um, if they know that a parent is a number 7, then for heaven's sakes, invite them to do fun things. Yes. And if they know your aging parent is a number 5, then ask them what they've been reading lately. Um, we don't— we're so tempted to bring to life our own perspective, and the Enneagram opens up 8 different perspectives that our parents may have. And so, we can either bring our own perspective or explore those other perspectives. And I think that could be so enriching to someone getting older. Absolutely.

I want to read both of them.

I want to read all of them.

How many are there? Are there 2? Are there more?

Well, I've written about, I think, I don't know, I think around 9 books, but— Whoa! So, actually, we wrote a book early on, a handbook for parents. And I don't think that's in print anymore because now there's so many more. That was a long time ago that we wrote that. Well, that's impressive. Well, it's, it's what I love to do. And sort of what you said, where you wondered about being a helper and you take joy, and I take joy in that. Um, maybe one difference between the 2 and the 4 is that I take joy in that, but it I like engaging with people about it, but if nobody ever read one of the books that I wrote, I would still take joy in it. Um, so that's wonderful. I'm thankful for that. Yeah.

Um, can you tell everyone where to find you?

What do you— oh, what do you mean?

Tell everyone where to find you, your website, Facebook, where, where can people find you? Because you're so fascinating.

Well, my website would definitely be the best thing. Um, One of my oddities is that I am Facebook-free and proud of it. That's wonderful. You know, really, that's an— I don't know, it'd be interesting to find out if a lot of faith— what number fours do with that, because I have my husband and my daughter who inform me of things I don't want to miss on Facebook. But Facebook, Christmas cards, they all make me feel bad about myself because everybody else is so much more wonderful. Oh my goodness. I'm not on Facebook. Um, and I do, you know, I sometimes I do some virtual interviews or something like that, but at 78, I realized I really need to pull back. And so part of that, the Enneagram piece of that, is we always want to hold our gifts loosely, but I need to hold my gifts loosely with my hands wide out. You know, is this something I can continue to do? And so I'm grateful. I mean, I love talking with you today and glad that you contacted me, or your producer contacted me. That's a gift to me, and I appreciate that. I don't have to travel, and I can sit here in my study and talk with you, just what I should be doing this age.

I can't thank you enough. I absolutely loved our conversation. I loved learning from you, and I know, I know time is precious, so I appreciate it.

Well, thank you, Rebecca. It's good to meet you.

Very good. This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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