Episode 226: Divorce With Dignity

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am so excited today because I have Ariella Schuster here with us today. Ariella, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

My pleasure. Very nice to meet you.

I'm going to tell you about her because she's a fabulous lady. Um, Ariella is an attorney. She's practicing— she's a practicing family law attorney on a mission to to support people in keeping their dignity and respect intact as they move through separation and divorce. She's a professional life coach with special expertise in divorce coaching, a mediator, a yoga instructor, a speaker, and mom to a rapidly growing teenage son. Before her roles as a mother and life coach, she was an intrepid world traveler and spent over a decade working in the criminal court system as a public defender in New York City and Seattle, Washington. Can I just pause and say holy moly? Um, she remains an avid cook, enthusiastic wine taster, and dabbler in random athletic pursuits. I want to hear about this. Ariella lives in Seattle, and she primarily represents people dedicated to divorcing with dignity through collaborative or other out-of-court divorce processes. She is also available for legal and life coaching and represents compelling clients who would prefer to divorce amicably but don't have a partner in peace. Well, you know, I've already told you when we were meeting that I think the work you're doing is absolutely fabulous and so needed. We all know this is such a needed field right now. And thank you for doing this work. Yeah, you're welcome. Well, let's start there because you do so many things. How did you land on, I want to focus on helping people through separation and divorce?

That's a really big question. So basically, my background is wanting to work with people. I have something like the silly quote that I made up in my book that I really Like, it says collaborative attorneys, like attorneys like me who seek peaceful resolutions, put the counselor back in counselor at law.

I love that.

And that's really what it is, because I think that people have lost track, particularly in the divorce realm, of what's going on. You put people in a courtroom, in a courthouse, and everything vital to them is all of a sudden you know, just front and center. And it's set up in court, particularly set up in a way that triangulates, you know, you literally have this authority figure up here and then you're at two separate tables. So even if you were kind of doing well together, just that environment does something to your, like, you know, limbic system, right? That goes into alert and you're like, oh my God, everything's, you know, on the table. But why went the progression? To answer your question, I I was a public defender for many years. I had a very big social justice mission and social work sort of agenda. I liked getting to know what really was going on in the world, you know, on like the underbelly, you know, like my bio says, was, am still planning to be more intrepid traveler, pre-K. My son's name is Kayam. So I call it pre-K. I did a lot of traveling and I always wanted to see kind of what was going on, like really see what the people were doing, what the social fabric was like, what the customs were like. So when I had my son, I took about 7 years off working, which was amazing. And then I went back to work, but I decided I wanted to do something that brought out the kinder, gentler self in me and not the more aggressive, because you're always fighting when you're a public defender. Like everyone hates you, you know, your clients hate you, your the judges hate you, the prosecutors hate you, society hates you. Right. But you have a mission in terms of, like, you want to make sure that you hold the government right. You're a constitutional right, basically. So regardless, you still have this stand in the world. I decided to look at all my talents and things that I enjoy and things I don't enjoy, and I decided to be a life coach. So I went back to school and got a coaching certification, like a year program, which I thought— I'm like a little bit of an academic, and I was like, oh, this is going to be too easy. So I picked something I thought was a hard program. Oh my gosh, like kicked my butt so hard. Like, like now I understood like what group therapy is, right? Like you're bouncing off all these people and everything just, you know, so it gives you this orientation to getting I'm an ontological coach, which means I'm coming from being. So it's like who you be and not what you do that you anchor to in the world. So like, let's say you have an essence, like a particular, your own kind of flavor, right? So maybe yours is connection, right? Because you love to talk to people and it gives you vibrancy and it's just, it's not something you try to do. It's something that is who you are.

That was really good.

So, so if you go— so, so if you are in the world and you're feeling kind of not so good, or maybe like a little down, and then you go, my essence connection, how would connection be now? And then you step into that and you can shift without changing your circumstance or doing something. You just go internally, anchor to who you are, remember that and then put that back in the world. And it really works. It's a really— it's very strong, you know, um, practice.

There's so many women who need to reconnect to their essence. Am I allowed to have them call you?

Yeah, totally. I do, I do life coaching also. I still have— I, I started a, a, um, a, a life coaching practice, and my intention at— in doing that was to work with people who were going through divorce and separation co-parenting because I wanted to show that there was a different way to do it, a different way to approach it. And then as I kept doing that, somehow my attorney stuff came back and I ended up taking on the role of attorney using my life coach skills.

It's perfect. It's like the perfect marriage.

The perfect marriage. What is the perfect marriage?

No.

So what's the perfect divorce? So what, what happened to me in the interim is I had a child and I, um, my, my son's dad and I were together for about 3 years and then we separated and moved households. So I have one house and he has another house and we are 16 blocks away. My son was in preschool, um, and I heard someone saying, like, we both heard like the parent grapevine, you know, saying, oh, there was this couple who separated and they're doing an amazing job. And then we realized that was us. And that's when I started getting the idea actually of doing the coaching and supporting people and shifting the paradigm of negativity and adversarialness that surrounds divorce, um, and co-parenting. So, so that was, that's, that's how that went.

I love that you and your ex did such an, had such an amicable separation and divorce. Can you share with us what factors, what do you think made it so amicable?

So, so I think two things. One, I didn't actually— I was divorced to someone different, and I had a child with my son's dad who I did not marry.

Okay, I didn't know this.

So yeah, well, it's, you know, it's not in the book, so it's not, it's not exactly in the— you know, it's— I, I think, I think it's a good— I, I find it interesting because I think that the assumptions that are made kind of play into a lot of ways that we behave in the world. Yes. So that it's like an assumption. Oh, you were married when you had a kid, or you did this, and it's like, that's an assumption. It's a societal assumption.

Absolutely.

So I think that's a strength that I have in my work is that I don't assume things in that way. And I know that you can have many different co-parenting situations and different relationships. I think for us, the reason that the amicableness came into it was because my son's dad was the product of a very traumatic divorce. He never got what he needed. It was an old school kind of mom ends up sort of having to struggle after being like very affluent and kind of moved to dad, mom, but very fighting with the parents. And he's a very sensitive person and it impacted him. So he was in— and I come from this background of like this. I'm from an immigrant family, like very close, very supportive, like concept of like, I don't know these Americans. They're 18 years old, they're an adult. What are you talking about? Like, they're not an adult. You're our children forever. You know, so I come from this really like held, you know, sort of background. And he came from a very individualist, like, like, well, you're going to have to take care of yourself. And, and to his credit, he has, right? So he made the choice. I didn't see a different choice, you know, in terms of like, what do we do for this kid? Like, right. And he made the very conscious choice to not repeat, you know, and maybe rectify, I think.

Well, that's probably so healing for him too, to be able to do that for his child.

That's what I think.

Yeah.

So, and I just saw, you know, I just noticed like if you're like, you separate, people are like, oh, you know, it's all sorrow. And it's like, I really would like people to shift that and just say, oh, should I be— should I be— thank you— should I be congratulating you or commiserating with you? Like, because—

question, right?

Like, because that's not, you know, maybe, you know, someone loses a job that, you know, they hated or something, and you're like, awesome, you've got all these opportunities now, right? Or you're moving on. Like, it's kind of the same thing. It's like you had a thing that you— that you did for this period of time and it stopped working, right? So then now you're going to give yourself the opportunity to create something different for yourself as you move forward.

That is really good advice, and I'm going to apply it to divorce and separation. My friend texted me that she left her job, and so my response to her was, okay, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Like, I don't know how to respond yet until I hear that.

Yes, right, exactly. Because for some people it's been brewing and brewing and brewing, and this is a relief. For some people it's tragic. For everyone, for everyone, I think it really involves a lot of grief, right? And that, that's why the court system as it stands, you know, with respect to divorce doesn't make sense. You know, I write in my book that there's, you know, kind of a short history is that divorce started, um, like was a religious institution, right? Because marriage was religious, right? And then there were no institutions like, what if people want to get divorced? You know, this is even before the United States was, was formally the United States. And then they took it to like the legislature and then the judiciary for some reason, and that's where it is. Because if you really logically think about it, doesn't make any sense. You're dealing with families and emotions and relationships, right? And reconstructing those, transitioning those. Why would a courtroom be the place to do that?

Well, let's talk about that because I don't think people realize this. Let's talk about the benefits of having an out-of-court divorce.

So one of my missions actually is there is an actual thing called collaborative law. We call it Big C collaborative. It's not like, oh, we have attorneys and they're nice to each other as much as possible. This is literally a statute that has been enacted in almost every state and in countries around the world that exempt— they actually take the divorce process out of the regular statute and it's governed by completely different rules. It's the Uniform Collaborative Law Act. And basically it has an entire different set of how you ethically behave in this container. So for instance, when you have lawyers, your two lawyers are not allowed— you are now communicating between your lawyers, right? Like your lawyers are talking. I'm not allowed to talk to your spouse's lawyer. I mean, your spouse, right? You know, they can't talk to you, right? So there's a lot of like what happens between those conversations and how many times I get a call that's just like, you know, oh, I don't know what happened. What, you know, I don't know what, what her attorney told her, but oh my God, now everything is just blown up, right? Like things, things like that. So the collaborative system is actually takes is a team approach. It's a holistic, almost therapeutic— I don't know if that turns people on or off, but, you know, but basically it takes two people. You each have your own attorney, right? But everyone talks to each other. There is no hide the ball. We bring in experts or neutral people to work with both of you instead of usually in a regular divorce that's contentious, one person gets an assess, you know, an appraisal about something, money thing here, and then another person gets one from someone different. They're each paying for them. Then they hire experts to contest the other person's thing. Like, it's insane, right? And tons of people are making money off of it. Terrible. So in this case, what we do is we put you in the room, which is on Zoom now, right? But it's like, so it's me, the other attorney who are called my counterpart counsel, not opposing counsel. They're my— we're together. We're like, we're not co-counsel. We each represent our clients and have private relationships with them. But in terms of anything that impacts the durability or integrity of the agreements, we share those. We either share them with the group or we leave the case. But let me explain that. So what happens is, so let's say the idea is to come to a door agreement. And durable doesn't just mean you're pressured and you're corkscrewed and you're like, oh my God, like, I, if I have to go to trial tomorrow if this doesn't happen, so I'm just going to take it. I hate it, right? That's, that's like what happens in the, in the regular model. And then you have problems later because you're resentful. So what we do is we deal with the underlying relationships. We bring in a coach who's actually a mental health professional, um, who most of them have been practicing with family therapy for, you know, 20, 30 years. Right? So they, they're part of the group, our team. We get a financial professional. The financial professional sits with— without attorney hours, right? You meet separately. You do all your homework. The financial professional gathers all your information, does budgets for you, make sure that each person understands what they— each household needs to be sustainable into the future, because that's the goal. Right? We have parenting specialists, we have child specialists, like we have any, we have vocational counselors. Like if someone has to go back to work and hasn't been in the workplace for many years, then, then, then you can see a vocational, like we have this network of amazing professionals, like such mission-driven, like high integrity, caring, loving, like creative people. You know, it's really— I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's really, um, I feel very like fortunate to be in this community.

You know, this is such a shift from, you know, when we were growing up, when we heard people talk about divorce. I mean, when they were talking about finding a lawyer, they wanted like the ball buster who was gonna go fight for them. So, I mean, let's talk about that. When you're choosing a lawyer, I mean, what are you recommending that people look for?

I 100% recommend that you go to your regional collaborative law website. Wherever you are, you're going to have one, and you want to pick an attorney who is on that website. It's really simple because in order to be a collaborative law attorney, the big C collaborative, you need training. You need to be a member of a practice group, you need to do continuing education. It's a very active group of people. Like, I myself— go ahead.

I didn't know about this. I mean, this is wonderful to learn about.

That's the whole point of my book, honestly. Like, the next book that I'm going to write is going to be called The Peaceful Divorce Revolution, and I think it's going to be just about collaborative, because this has been around since 1991. There's a perception that it's costly or top-heavy, like too much or takes too much time. But those are really misinformed because it's not. And I don't tout it as the cheapest alternative, right? Although really, if I file one temporary motion for you, like one court motion, it can cost at this point up to $10,000 just for like one round, right? Wow. So it depends how you want to spend your money, right? I'm into front loading. I'm into getting everyone on board, having you spend your money and your time and your energy sorting through, disentangling, looking at what's in the best interest of your kids, looking at what's in your best interest, really projecting your life out for the next 5 to 10 years. right? Like, where are you going to be? Like, we can do things in collaborative you can't do, like, with, with a regular process. For instance, we have mortgage lenders who, who are trained in collaborative, and we'll— they don't charge anything. If you have, uh, spouses who want, you know, they own a home and one wants to keep the home, right, and needs to refinance it to keep the home, but they haven't had an income stream Right? Because everyone's like, oh, I want the house. I'm like, yeah, you can't have it. Like, because you don't, you don't have it, right? It's just so we, our mortgage lender comes in, like we have several who we work with. They know what to look for. They do the budgets, they do, they look at the income, they look at what, you know, the equity, they look at all different things and then come up with scenarios like, okay, if you get maintenance for, you know, 4 years at this amount, then, then you can, refinance for this amount, right? Or you can buy down the mortgage as part of the settlement. And we can wait. We can create these scenarios to allow you time to figure out how to set yourself up, how to create your foundation so that you will be successful, like the whole family will be successful in the future.

That's wonderful. And I think that You're talking about really big decisions.

Yes.

That families are making. And you labeled it collective decision-making. Is that right?

Yes.

Okay. So can you tell us about collective decision-making versus fighting, which is what we tend to see, what they tend to showcase as divorce as?

So what we do is we have a very, you know, if people follow things different ways, different jurisdictions, like different, people practice differently in different states, different counties practice differently. So I just do the model that we do here, you know, that, that which doesn't mean anything to you because you don't know the models, right? Like, but, but this one basically, because sometimes you have two coaches, you'll have a coach for each spouse, right? Like sometimes, you know, there's just different like, like little flavors to it. Some people are very regimented in how they follow the procedure. Other people are more loose, right? I tend to be pretty structured, loose within the structure. But I think the structure holds people. Like, I think a time in people's lives when they're frizzling, like when they're very scared and they're very— no matter how yoga they are, I mean, they're like freaking out, right? Like they did get married and they did have some inkling that this was going to be their forever life. And they thought this is their house for a long time, and they thought they were either going to not be working or working for a long time, and they thought they would always have their kids every day. And, you know, they— yeah, yeah, like, these are really, really, really, really deep, deep, like, almost, you know, they're primal, right? It's survival.

It is.

Yeah, absolutely survival. And We talk about that, right? So, and what we do is we look at the dynamic. The one of, one of the things we do that, that creates the collective decision-making is we take, we take the, the, the spouses and we sort of do a little diagram, or I do like it. It's, you know, there's the bubble. I do bubbles, right? So when I used to have, you know, my, like my whiteboard, it was like easier. It's harder now that everything's on Zoom, but it's like, so you're, you're, you're spouses, you're married, right? And then you're also like co-parents, right? And then underneath that you have your kids. Your kids don't relate to you as a couple. You might think they do, but that's not what they see. They relate to you as co-parents, right? What your job is to move whatever it is that existed in the in the romantic relationship and learn to identify and notice, like, especially if you're getting into conflict, what's coming from that marital relationship, right? And what, you know, is that serving the co-parenting relationship? So we're learning how to communicate on a different level where the things that might have triggered you that you just, you're just, I mean, it's just like knee-jerk, right? Yeah. Step back and you're like, is this— where's this coming from? And it's like, if it's from the marital, it doesn't matter, right? So we learn, you know, we do communication tools, but, but basically we do like at the first meeting, um, we do high-end goals.

And I was going to ask you about goals.

Yeah, so that's, so that's kind of it. And the high-end goals are really aspirational. They really lift— if you could energetically think about lifting people Right? It's sort of like, you know, it's, it's, it's peace. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's being at our grandchildren's births together. It's walking down our child down, down the aisle together. Right? It's, it's respecting each other, you know, how we made it through this process. Right? Like, really. So when people get, you know, start going, you know, we go, okay, so I just want to bring you back, right, to what you expressed to begin with, right?

Yes, yes.

We pay it. We notice when people are like, you know, like, I do survival mechanism with my clients. Like, I sort of figure out what, you know, What is it? Are you a capitulator? You know, like, what do I need to watch for?

Oh, that's good. That's a great question.

Right? Like, like, so I don't, I don't actually ask them. I just pay attention. I coach and I bring out like what, what, what it is, you know, how, how's the dynamic and are you a pleaser? You know, so, so sometimes I'll give people like little code names, like, like, like Patty Pleaser. And it's like, so when Patty Pleaser shows up, right?

Yeah. That's really good.

Notice, because you need— this is, this is also part of the new way that you're gonna be in your life. This is one of the opportunities.

Yeah.

Is that you get to sort of identify what your mechanisms are, right? And, and stay and, and, and shift if you want to.

So are you seeing couples with your help with everyone's help, are you seeing them able to have a more peaceful, amicable divorce?

You know, it's hard to say. It's one of those things like, do the vaccines work? I'm not being controversial. I'm just saying, like, you know, because they're like, does the new one work? Right. Do you get the new one or not? And it's like, well, yeah, well, it's not really like addressing the current strains, but like, you know, but if you get COVID, it'll be better. Like you won't get it as bad. And I'm always like, I don't understand. I think scientifically they can show that, I guess. But that's kind of what it's like about doing collaborative versus you have no idea what you avoided.

Like, right, right.

I got a call at like 11:00 at night from a client in a collaborative process, and he said something happened with the kids calling him from the mom's house and should he call Child Protective Services? Et cetera. So I happen to have a lot of background because of my— I did dependencies and I did criminal law, and I work with domestic violence also. So it's like, so I have a pretty good idea. So I gave him some questions about really determining, assessing the situation, right, from a CPS perspective. And then I'm like, you know, bottom line, like, if you do this, you're going to blow this up. This is going to be the— your, your wife is like Her whole identity is being a mom. Even, you know, you do this, like, nothing will be like the same, like, because she— this will hit her in such the deepest part of her being.

Yeah.

So, so, you know, I assessed it. I said, I don't think— do you— if you think they're in danger, that's one thing, right? So you need to make that assessment. Here's what I assess. And he left it alone. We called a meeting with the coach, right? Like we, so that they met with the coach a few days later and talked about what happened. Right? So, so in a litigation situation, if I was a litigation attorney, I would say awesome. Like call CPS, get them involved. Uh, we'll do an emergency motion. We'll have her have to have supervised visitation. You know, you got, you got this. Like, that's the difference. And you won't know that.

I mean, this is such a better way. This is such a better way. I'm so happy that it's shifting because what I have seen and heard has not been very pleasant.

It's horrific. I mean, and like, you know, like I said, you can't prove the negative, which is unfortunate. Like, if you could show what would happen, had you filed these papers and had you gone to court and the amount of money. And people complain anyway. It's just like a thing. No one wants to spend money on things that are not pleasant. No. Right. I mean, I love a nice pair of shoes or like a great vacation and you don't really complain as much. Right. It's really insult to injury. Not only do I have to go through this, But I have to spend money to pay for something that's unpleasant.

And I have heard couples say that they can't afford to get divorced. Yes, I have heard people tell me that, which is a whole nother ball of wax, right?

Because you get underneath that too, and it's more like there's fear about change and there's something about them, probably their patterns are sticking to things that aren't good. They probably had, like, in their family histories, sort of certain roles of, like, suffering. You know, they're sufferers when they do, you know.

That's interesting. I love the life— I see the life coaching just, like, oozing out of you. I love it. Okay, so let's talk about healthy co-parenting because we've all seen unhealthy co-parenting. So can you tell us what it looks like when you see a divorced couple doing healthy co-parenting?

It's basically— there's a— it looks different for everyone, honestly, because some people need more structure. Some people need— there's something called a parenting plan that I'm sure every— I'm assuming every state requires. And it designates when the kids are with who, like the proportional share of expenses that are joint. And what holidays they're with, you know, what, you know, it just kind of designates all those things, the dispute resolution process you'll use if you have an issue. So some people need a very structured, you know, they're structured. I actually, a lot of conflict with my co-parent happens with me. We have a good relationship, but it is not like, I mean, it's not a walk in the park relationship. It's not a, nah, I've seen people who just are like really, like, easy, easy. We, we are not together for a reason. Like, those don't go away for both of us. We're both frustrating to the other person. He's— that my co-parent is very structured. He likes things mapped out. He's, you know, spreadsheets. I'm like, like, oh, like, do you want— how about— does that work next week? You know, I mean, it's— and, and so it's endlessly, you know, there's, there's, there's rigid and very flexible, right?

Right. Yes.

So we've had to weave that, you know, but we actually don't even have a parenting plan. We just, because we didn't, unless you, when you were in Washington State, if you were married, you have to have a parenting plan when you get divorced. But if you haven't been married, you don't.

Interesting. See what I'm learning today? All sorts of things.

But I think, I think that the commit— honestly, it's the commitment to your children's health, and it's the commitment to your own well-being and sort of a higher integrity that, that creates the best co-parenting. Like the ability to, to, to reflect on your communication and your demands sometimes or desires. And just try to— it's always walking a kind of, you know, there's some tools, there's like for the children, like the bridge. And, you know, it's about, you know, a visual sort of each standing on one side of the bridge, or I use a phone, I have a phone in my mind with one of those like strings. you know, kind of. But your kids like are in the middle and it depends how stably you hold those, like is how stable your child is going to feel. And if your child knows that you're both communicating with each other, and it only takes once, it only takes like my son one time to say, what, Dad said I could do this. And I'm like, okay, I'll just call. And then he's like, what? Right. And as soon as you know that the two ends are speaking to each other and, and really the bet providing a united front. Like, that's, that's, that's, I think, one of the biggest things. Even if you don't necessarily agree on something, agree that you are going to have your conversation amongst yourselves, right? Mom and Dad are going to talk about this.

Well, and I mean, you're touching on something big that you talked about um, in your book about like, what do you do if you can't— if a couple can't come to an agreement? Like, what advice do you give them?

I mean, then if they can't come to an agreement, I mean, there's— then they just have to make choices. I'm not sure. I don't know how to answer that exactly. Can you flesh that out a little bit more?

Well, I mean, I have seen so many couples fight about things, and like, as I'm reading more about, um, I took out a lot of key points. I got to read a lot of your book, and we're going to talk about your book next. You said that people need a point person. Maybe that is helpful with that kind of situation.

Right. Okay, so that's— got it. I was like, when I can't agree at all, I don't know.

You're like, what now?

That's when you can't agree at all. That's when you have decided to say, I'm out. I'm going to turn this over to a stranger to make decisions about my life. That's basically what happens, right? But yeah, a point person is a coach, right? Or a therapist or a friend or someone. The buy-in is really important. Both people have to agree that they trust this person and that you can go to this person, right?

That makes sense.

Yeah. But if you have, to me, in my experience, which I don't know if it would be everyone's, but from my experience, every time the ability— the difference, I think, between sometimes being married to someone who you have conflict with, it's hard to get away, right? It's kind of like you're living in the same house. You have to constantly interact. What I noticed was really nice about separating households was that once you understand, like, oh wait, I don't have to get into this now. I just have to hang up, right? There's space, right? And the space gives you an ability to come back to yourself and to come back to essence and to really not just go, go, go, go, go, right? Or not do the same thing you always do. Push, push, push. Okay, fine. Or push, push, push. Okay, fine. Or this, whatever your pattern was, you don't need to have that in your co-parenting relationship. So knowing that you have someone that you can call, right, and make an appointment is vital to me. That was, to me, that was absolute. And oftentimes, you know, my co-parent and I were not agreeing on elementary school. Really big deal.

That's a big deal.

Big deal. I had a very strong opinion. He had a very strong opinion. We, we were not getting closer together. And so we're like, okay, let's go, right? We're tabling this. And once we tabled it and stood back, we actually came back together. Like, and, and, and he expressed that, like, he didn't— he thought that I was sort of making a unilateral decision. It was more about the communication style, you know? And then I was like, well, this is something that's so important to me that maybe I did come at it hard because I wanted to stand my ground because I don't always do that. Because you can be really pushy, right? I'm like, but this one is that important to me that I'm standing here. And then we resolved it and agreed. But if we hadn't had the back pocket to know we had somewhere else to go to resolve it, it wouldn't have worked out as well, honestly. So yeah, I think that is like just vital.

Well, I mean, I'm happy for you and I'm happy for your son that you've been able to navigate this whole process. And I will tell you that if someone is thinking about getting divorced or is divorced, I mean, your book is so helpful. Can you tell everyone the name of your book, about your book, and where to find your book?

So it's the longest title, but it basically says it's 3 titles. So it's, it's Divorce with Dignity. How to End Your Marriage, which I actually wanted relationship, but How to End Your Marriage Without Ruining Your Life or the Lives of Your Kids. Say No to Court and Yes to a Peaceful Resolution. So it's a lot of things, but it's actually, that's, that's exactly what it is. And what I do in the book is it's basically a primer. I think it's really readable. It's not long. And it basically— what I— one of my missions is to educate. Like, I offer a half-hour complimentary consult to anyone who wants to talk to me. That's not usual in my industry. And I don't do it because I devalue my services, which, you know, that's a whole other topic when if you're a coach and different service professionals, right? But I do it because I am committed to public service. And being in private practice is different for me because I'm really a public interest person. And this is about my mission to educate people because the fact that, you know, so few people know that there are really wonderful alternatives to the current system to me is just an absolute shame. Yeah, because I didn't know.

I mean, until I met you. I didn't know. And I think I found your book on Amazon, right?

Yeah, that's where I found it. It's kind of crazy. So I think that collaborative law should be the go-to. So that's what I want to share with people.

Yeah.

What was it? What's the rest of the question?

Well, no, I just wanted you to tell everyone about your book, and I wanted you to tell everyone where to find it. And I said, I think I found it on Amazon. And yeah, it's on Amazon.

The Kindle is out now. Um, the printed book I'm still waiting for. I don't know, I'm not getting a lot of answers about where it is, but, but everything takes longer than we think it's going to take is what I have learned. November '22. So I'm like, no, it's February '23.

Oh boy.

So we'll see. But that, but the Kindle book is up. I have it priced at an introductory price right now. Because I want people to be able to get it, to read it, review it. And I just, I think it's, it gives, it's basically a primer that gives you information about like the many ways that you can stay out of court depending on what level of assistance that you need, you know. But again, I'm like a massive proponent of collaborative. When I, when my son's dad and I separated, we did a collaborative process. And that's how we got actually the coach or counselor or therapist that we went to was through that process. We were sent to her and then we kept her for the next, like, you know, I mean, we basically still have her, but, you know, now my son's 16 now, so we're pretty good.

But So what about as far as coaching and law? Like, who are you serving and how can they find you?

So I, in terms of coaching, I can coach anyone from anywhere because it's not a license. Like, you know, you don't have to have a license in a particular jurisdiction. That's perfect. So, so I happen, I, I do, I do coaching is more of like my, a little bit of the passion business. Right. It's like my main business is divorce and is being an attorney. The coaching— I have coached several people through. They contact me when they say they want to get a divorce and they haven't told their spouse yet how to do it. And I love that, right? Because then you get to Actually, I'm going to interrupt myself because I wanted to say there were studies that show that the impact of divorce on kids goes generations. It goes generations down the line. There's actually postgenerational trauma that comes out of divorce so that when you do collaborative divorce, you're literally saving your great-grandchildren.

That's amazing.

Seriously, that is how impactful. It is, you know, all the new studies, right, that are coming out about, you know, post-traumatic stress and about, like, generational things. Divorce is in there. And the worse your parents' divorce is, if they divorce, the more it just goes down the line, right? We want to stop that. We want to create a more humane, right, like, world. We do feel a little bit like, you know, saving one family at a time.

I'm sitting here thinking that you are reaching a lot of people right now who probably, like me, didn't know about this. So hopefully, one family at a time, you are changing the way that divorce happens. And I think that's beautiful work that you're doing.

Thank you. We're doing a lot. I was on a leadership academy with the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals and on several committees and the chair co-chair of this committee. There's so many people who care so much. Um, this is, this is not— people don't go into this as a fall, as a fallback. No, right? Like, they do this because they really, really— the professionals really support, believe in this, like, so strongly. Um, the book— so, so people have come to me, like, before they get divorced, which I love because I get to educate them before, right? And I've coached people through how to set it up so that you have the highest chance of bringing your spouse on board to a collaborative process.

That's wonderful. What is your website? Tell everyone where to go look for you.

It's my website. It's Divorce— it's dignifieddivorcelaw.com. Okay. I just had to change it. That's why it was— if you go to Divorce with Dignity Law, it's there also. But I was a trademark infringer. I just admitted on— oopsies. Let me just edit that out. But, uh, so I've had— I'm trans, so that's transitioning. I'm not quite used to it yet. But the book is Divorce with Dignity.

Um, well, I absolutely love what you're doing. I loved getting to talk to you, and I can't thank you enough for your precious time today.

Thank you so much. I will— one more thing in the book is tips from a life coach. That's different than other books like this.

It's a great book.

Thank you. It really is.

I think that, you know, honestly, the tips for getting divorced or being divorced, you know, it can help you have a happier marriage too. You can apply stuff to have a happier marriage.

The, the tips from a life coach is a lot of the exercises that I use in my practice. I kind of shifted them a little bit to be specifically around divorce. But the sort of future visioning and the sort of the gleaning essence and the things like that, really, it's all about anchoring and stepping into possibility.

And I didn't even get to talk to you about yoga or traveling, but I have certainly kept you long enough. Yes.

Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to meet you.

This was wonderful. This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you, Ariella.

Thank you. I'll think about that today.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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