Episode 230: No One Saw It Coming with Marci Glidden Savage

Hello everyone. This is Rebecca Green for the Winey Plousa Podcast, and I am very excited today because I have the wonderful, fabulous Marci Glidden Savage here with us today. Marci, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Thank you, Rebecca. I'm happy to be here.

Thank you. Marci is so many things. She's an author. She's a mental health advocate. She is the CEO of a family-owned packaging supply company. After experiencing the catastrophic impact of suicide twice, Marci emerges as a fierce proponent for eliminating the social stigma attached to mental illness, which keeps many individuals battling depression and anxiety from seeking help. Marci lives in Southern California, where she enjoys spending time with family and friends traveling, and endless hours of genealogy research. Well, that sounds fascinating. I am— I would just like to pause before I ask you all the important questions. Um, I'm very jealous that you are in sunny California.

Well, it— as I look out my window, it is— I can see snow on local Southern California mountains. Which it happens a couple of times every couple of years. So it's cold in sunny Southern California. It's not today.

I am shocked. And you just, you already taught me something. I didn't know there was snow in Southern California.

Yes, yes. It got down to, you know, 2,500 feet. So we have local mountains and it's beautiful to look at. It won't last long, but You know, it's cold today by our standards.

Well, I'm far away from you in freezing Buffalo, New York, and I'm counting down to spring and summer.

Yes, I bet you are.

So, so Marci, take us back in time. I want to know how— what ended you today? What brought you here today as an author and mental health advocate? Tell us the story that brought you to us today. Okay.

Well, in 2000— August of 2014, I came home from work one day and found my husband outside on the back patio, dead by suicide, after 34 and a half years of marriage and Actually 40 years together because we dated when we were at UCLA.

I can't, I can't even imagine that moment. I can't even, I can't even go there with you.

I just, it, um, it takes, well, you know, things really do slow down in slow motion and, you know, your brain is just not equipped certainly to, you know, to understand what you're seeing. And, you know, we were madly crazy in love. We had a fabulous marriage. Our business had had the most successful year, you know, a new 18-month-old grandson. Life was wonderful. Clearly, my husband suffered from something that was so far buried and deep that most of us, if not all of us, certainly couldn't see this coming. I would have done anything to have helped. I would have walked through fire for him. I expected to grow old and be in rocking chairs, and this was it. I wanted a 50th wedding anniversary. Yes. Um, but it wasn't to be, and I jumped completely into mom mode. My— I have 3 children. Um, 2 of them were in their mid to late 20s. One was, um, 31, and I felt like I needed not only to try to protect my husband's reputation, but my, but my children. They became my only priority. Their hurt and their pain and their grief. Um, mine pales in comparison to watching them grieve. And they had— you know what, they had lost one significant parent, and I wasn't going to let them lose another one.

Wow, to that, I, I'm impressed. I'm already impressed.

Well, I'm sure anyone, given the circumstances I was in, any mom, would just jump in. Certainly, I wanted to fall in bed and cry and grieve losing the love of my life. But we also ran a business together. We had employees and customers and vendors. So I didn't get the luxury of falling into bed. Although looking back on that, I'm actually glad I didn't because I was forced from the very get-go to start making some steps forward, whether it was just showing up at the office and doing what I needed to do and then going home. But looking back, those were steps forward. And, uh, I didn't write this book after that. Um, I, I didn't, I didn't even think about it. And then I, you know, slowly, as, you know, started, I wanted to live again. I, I was only 57 at the time, and I didn't die, and my life I didn't feel was over. Um, the love I had for my husband was never going to go away. But I felt like I had life to live. And so, you know, I eventually started dating and I fell in love again. Very open and honest with what I had been through. And got married. It was a tough go with family and friends and my kids. But, you know, I I felt like a woman again. I felt like I was out in the world and I could participate. I could contribute, that I just didn't have to be this grieving widow all day long. And we were married in July of 2018. And 8 months later, I came home again one day. To— fortunately, no one being there. But, um, but soon learned that, um, my second husband Michael had driven to Palm Springs, checked himself into a hotel, and, um, overdosed. And here I was again, and I thought Not only do I not want to do this again, I can't do it again. I felt like I just couldn't.

I can't, I can't even believe. I mean, when I read your story, I couldn't. I mean, to have it happen once, but you had it happen twice. Like, I can't even imagine.

It's a small, very small niche. I, you know, certainly after Paul died, I, I did a lot of Googling, let me get my hands on anything I could read, anybody, any blogs, any of losing a husband by suicide.

Yeah.

And there were, there were plenty, unfortunately. Twice, two husbands. I absolutely, I Googled it and nothing came up. Probably one of the scariest moments for me. I mean, I've never sat down and not Googled something, right?

Right, right, right.

But nothing. And I had a completely different experience from those around me with the different deaths. And to me, Rebecca, I had lost— I really didn't care at that time how they died. They died. I lost love. I lost my partner. I lost— again, my world imploded, like happens when you lose a spouse. It's the number one stressor on the index. I wasn't worried about or thinking how they died. But those around me were. And I learned very quickly that it's the only type of death that your loved one's character is judged, their whole life is evaluated and looked at. And The questions around you have an undertone of as though the family has some sort of accountability.

Oh gosh.

You know, uh, didn't you see anything? Couldn't you have seen anything? And I will tell you, um, I wrote this book, um, and finished it during COVID And I included the word asymptomatic in my book because that's what they were. They were asymptomatic for the depression and anxiety that was hiding within them.

So, so my understanding is that they were suffering inside and they weren't sharing anything with anybody.

That's correct. They were not sharing anything. And Paul had— my first husband was a very Type A personality, entrepreneur, hugely loved, literally coached everyone in the community. Neighbors loved him. He was the dad that was out skateboarding with the kids on the street. And so, you know, sometimes people that suffer from depression or anxiety and such, it becomes a fabric of who they are. And so they've learned to live with it. They've learned to manipulate it. They've learned to, to spend so much energy on keeping that hidden that they don't have any energy left to help fix it or do any part of you know, seeking help. And certainly for men, it is hugely a stigma, you know, the stigmas really envelop them. You know, you're going to be weak. Why can't you man up? All of those things. For us women, it's a little bit different. We have a tendency to talk about, you know, we're anxious or depressed. We've got girlfriend groups. And, you know, it's It's better for us, but men, men don't, for the most part.

They don't. And I think what you're saying is that they don't speak up because of the stigma. Is that what you're explaining to us?

Absolutely. Absolutely. They don't want their family to see them as weak, or certainly their colleagues. I have— I believe wholeheartedly that most men, their self-esteem and their self-worth revolves around how they provide for their families, what they do for a living, way more than women. And the age group of, you know, 55 to 65 in men is a, is, has a pretty high rate of deaths by suicide.

So, so why do you think that is? Why is it that age?

I think, um, by that age for men, I think they believe that if they haven't, you know, put their mark on, on their careers, or Michael, my, my, um, second husband was a— worked for a globally known defense and aerospace company.

Wow.

And he had been through a lot of corporate takeovers in his career of 32 years. But at 55, he lost his job along with a couple of other directors in that age category. And, you know, you don't come across vice president and president and CEO opportunities. They're few and far between. And I believe that that had a lot to do with what happened. He and I were newly married. I was a little more financially stable than he. He had been through a divorce and had a lot of alimony and such. And I didn't understand that the inequities— I didn't. I saw them differently. But I don't believe that he did. And with Paul, You know, I don't know. Um, he had lost his father at a young age, never dealt with any of that. Um, but if there was ever a man who derived their self-worth from what he did and how he provided for his family, I would say Paul would be much at the top of the list. And You know, to us, we just loved him, and— but I'm not sure he saw that always.

If only we could go back and rewind the clock and change— and I don't even know, but help us, help us know what can we do differently? How can we talk about mental health, mental illness, suicide. Tell us how to change how we're discussing this stuff.

Well, um, let me say, let me start with the family because the, the, we're the ones left behind. The, the stigma that kept, that, that keeps individuals from reaching out for help, you know. The stigmas are bad and they're real, and those stigmas now are no longer with them, but they fall onto the family. They fall onto the friends, and the family and friends are left behind to explain. After Michael died, I realized I need to say something. Because this just isn't right. If they had died, either one of them or both, of a heart attack, if they had had ALS, if they had had horrible diabetes, uh, an incurable cancer, no one, no one around me or my children would have said, couldn't you have done something? Didn't you see that tumor inside? And couldn't you have gotten him to the doctor quicker? And, you know, none of that. Uh, they wouldn't have said, do you have any marriage problems?

Oh God.

Uh, how— any financial problems did that cancer cause?

I mean, so you've had to justify yourself over and over again, over and over and over again.

And it adds so much. It's painful to be— loss is painful. Grief is horrible under any circumstances. But you add an extra layer.

Yeah.

And I've said this to others that have lost someone. I've said, you know, I just want your grief. I just want that, just the normal grief, um, hard as it may be, just let me have that. This, uh, my daughter didn't seek any counseling for 5 years. Um, it is because, and I'll tell you, she said, I can't walk in I want them to know who my dad was, not what he just— what he did. So I would say to anyone around those, treat us just as if it had been any other death. Say, I'm sorry for your loss. Lean into their pain. Let them— you you know, let the grievers say what they want and just listen, just like everybody else.

Yeah. Well, and it's, and it's so interesting because when I say in my head, I was having a conversation with myself about rewinding the clock. There may be nothing anyone could have done anyway, which is so terrible.

No. And you, you know, you'll, you'll see. You know, the news spends a hot minute, you know, when a celebrity dies by suicide, and then, you know, they'll flash a phone number and, you know, please call. And I pretty much, I don't know 100% for sure, but I rather doubt either one of Paul or Michael would've called a number. To speak to someone anonymous like that. As long as the stigma is around, Rebecca, and as long as we treat this death differently, very differently, it's going to continue. We can have as many hotlines as you want. Yeah, but that's not going to change. You know, we've done a lot in our society to right some wrongs historically. We've come a long way, not far enough, but we have. This area, we have absolutely done nothing.

We've got a lot of work to do.

We do, we do. And it starts with you and I, Rebecca, just sitting and having a conversation, and you allowing me to share my heart and my experience and just communicating. That's where it starts.

Well, and you're spreading this every time you talk to someone and every time someone reads your book, you're doing a wonderful job helping to break the stigma.

That's what I'm hoping. That's—

well, and you said something interesting. You said that personifying grief helps you move past it, and I'm so fascinated. Can you tell us what that means?

Yes. Well, I had, um, I read, um, the book, a book by Megan Devine, um, and she had put a— she does writing classes online, and she herself had lost her partner And she was doing a writing class about grief. She asked her students, she said, you know, if you're writing a book and you have a main character, you know, you're right, your readers need to know what that character looks like and talks like and what they eat and such. She said, so I want you to try to personify, make, take grief is no longer just an emotion. Grief is an entity. And tell your readers how you met grief. And it was almost like a lightbulb moment for me. I thought, oh, wow, this is great. I mean, I don't have to carry all the time. I can, I can take grief and, and, and put her— I believe for me, she was a her. I can put her over here in this chair, and now I can talk to her. I'm not having these conversations in my head continually all day long. I, I, I can talk to someone. And so that's what I did. And for me, it, it was life-saving, really. It was, um, because I could rage at grief and not just keep it silent. I could actually physically yell in my house, or, or I could cry. And I knew that grief was the only one who knew exactly how I was feeling every minute of the day. Eventually, grief became not just my teacher, but my friend, and certainly my friend when Michael died, because everyone around me was, rightfully so, so angry that knowing what my family had been through. And, you know, and that is the saddest thing because that's how deep and dark depression can be when you really, you know, can't— the love of everything in your life goes away. You can't even hang on. So that, you know, grief became my friend. She understood. No one around me understood. And nobody— I would say, don't, don't, please, you know, please don't be angry. If you're angry at one person, be angry at two people. Because, and that's all I could say. I couldn't, I didn't have the words to explain why I was saying that. But it, so that is really what prompted me to write. This story. And I asked my children first, and, um, they said yes. And then I wrote a manuscript and I gave it to each one of them and said, look, I'm telling my story. I'm not going to tell yours. That's yours. Um, I will include you in here because I have children, but I'm not going to tell about your grief journey.

Right.

Uh, you can do that when you want. Um, and they gave me the okay. Um, as hard as it is, I mean, this is the last thing I, I want people to know about me, but, um, I've been given this story and, um, you know what, my faith is big. And I, I certainly believe that God could have changed it in an instant. The first one, the second one, both. But for some reason, he didn't. And I know that it's not because he doesn't love me. But if You know, if I need to be the face of suicide loss, then okay. Okay.

Well, you're helping people through sharing this difficult story. Tell everyone the name of your book.

The name of the book is And No One Saw It Coming.

Could that be a more— could that be a more perfect title? That you nailed it right there.

And no one saw it coming. Yes.

Well, how have you taken care of yourself through the grief? What have you done for yourself?

The number one thing I would say to anybody, I eventually, not at the beginning, that I eventually gave myself permission to heal. That's key. For me, that was key. I felt as though I was living in expectations of my children, my friends, rest of my family, and how they believed I should be healing. And at what marker I should be at. And then I realized it really is my own journey. And I had to tell Marcy, it's okay, Marcy, you can heal. That doesn't mean you didn't love somebody. That doesn't mean you're going to forget somebody. That just means that you are also important. And you, you didn't lose your worth because your spouse is gone. And so that, that was a number one—

that's really, that's really good advice. Really good.

It's my number one piece of advice. Yeah. To any, anyone suffering a loss, it's okay. It's okay to heal. It's okay.

Now what if somebody is listening whose partner is suffering, they see them suffering with anxiety or depression or both. Any advice for them?

Know that it's real. My first husband had an incident 7 years before with, um, an overdose of a sleeping pill, a prescribed sleeping pill, a very well-known one. And he, he described it as, um, it was an out-of-body experience, and I certainly wasn't trying to kill myself. And how I can't even believe you guys think I did. In 7 years, he really— he had convinced doctors, all of us, you know, that that wasn't real and such. And I would just suggest to anybody, the risk— The warning signs are not always there. None of my— neither one of Paul or Michael had any of those warnings, you know, giving away things, talking about— no, none of that. But if you have any inkling, know that it's real. Know that there's help there for you, for the one around. If they're not going to get some help, you can get some help. You can get some guidance on how to deal with somebody with depression and perhaps maybe a little more insight instead of just a list of warning signs or risk factors. It's like any other disease, you know, heart disease. They may know the risk they're taking. Yeah, and yet, you know, and yet they don't. So, uh, they may not get help, but you can get help. And because we can't make—

we can't make anybody get help.

No, right? No, no. Um, take care of yourself. Uh, love yourself. Do what you need to do for you is what I would say to someone. And you're not alone. You're absolutely not alone. Millions of people. I think it's like, in the last couple of years, like 3.2 million attempt to die by suicide every year in the United States. Um, that's—

that is so sad.

It's— it is a mark on our society that we allow this, that we haven't really embraced. We need to do for mental health what we've done for cancer. Let's just not accept it anymore. And let's, you know, let's do what it takes. Let's have the conversation. Get rid of the stigmas. My gosh, they're ancient stigmas. I agree. Let's march on Washington for this. Let's— because it is— it doesn't care what race you are.

No.

What your political aspirations are. It's an equal opportunity disease, but it's a disease. And we, we can do better. We have to do better, Rebecca, as, as a society. We have to. There's teenagers that are dying. I know. Kids. Our kids are dying at alarming rates. And, and we can't let that happen anymore.

Well, and it's so hard because you don't know what people are thinking. So I can say what I want till I'm blue in the face. To all my loved ones, but I don't know what they're thinking unless they tell me. So hopefully somebody listening will reach out, right? And we will make a difference today.

Yes, yes. And you know, they're worthy. Whoever's listening is worthy, and I'm going to do my best so that the person that's listening We'll see the change in this conversation, just like we saw, you know, during civil rights and that sort of thing. When people really got serious about something and were willing to talk about it and not be quiet, I would tell the person that's hurting, you know what, we're going to make a difference. You don't need to be ashamed. There's nothing to be fearful of. You're worthy, and the rest of us just haven't done a good job, and we will. Hang in there.

I was just, you know, my daughter's 13, and, and I don't know if you remember, but I remember how painful being 13 was. It is like one of the roughest years, and you're just— right, you're just so uncomfortable in your skin.

Yes.

And I was trying to explain to her how I remember and how our worth doesn't come from anyone around us.

Right.

You know, and the teenagers are, are struggling. Adults are struggling. You know, we have to also generalize. I mean, I know some people suffer from really serious mental illness, but people are suffering and we need to give them help and we need to break the stigma so that people don't feel weak reaching out. Because if you ask me, reaching out is a strength.

Absolutely. I agree with you 100% on that. We just need everybody else around us to have the discussion you and I are having this morning. Yes.

Yes. And we're going to do our best and we're going to spread this. And you know that I can't thank you enough for your time this morning. This has been wonderful.

Thank you. It has been a pleasure being here. I just— you're so comforting to talk to, and I really appreciate your listening, not only with your head but your heart. And, um, I appreciate it.

Will you tell everyone where to find you and your book?

Well, um, you go to my website, which is marcysavage.com. Um, you'll find some links to, you know, Amazon and all the rest, uh, some articles I've written and, um, some other interviews that I've done if your people are interested in that. I do have a couple of, um, blog posts, but I'm really not very good at being committed to that. That's something that I really kind of want to do It's like I want to do yoga. Maybe one day I will, but, um, it's there. And, um, uh, you can reach out to me at info@marciesavage.com, and, um, I'm always, uh, open to hearing, uh, from people. And if there's a way that my words, um, just the fact maybe that I even wrote the book, if that's helped in any way, then I'm on the right path, that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. And I'm not afraid of my story. I loved two great men, and they died from an illness, just like other people die from illnesses. And that's how I want them to be remembered. Not by just one act.

Absolutely. Well, thank you for having this hard, important conversation with me today.

Thank you. Thank you. I so appreciate you, Rebecca. I appreciate what you're doing, and I hope it gets warm pretty quick where you're at.

I'm gonna keep counting down, and I'm gonna count on you to send me some sun.

Okay.

This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time. This show has been produced by Market Domination LLC.

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