Episode 248: Words of Wisdom from a Wonderful School Counselor with Ashley Bartley

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green with the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today to welcome my guest Ashley Bartley. I'm already messing up my words. Hello Ashley, thank you for joining me today.

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Oh my goodness, I have my kids and my pool people and my dog, and there's lots going on in the background, which is why I put the headphones on today to focus right on you.

Sounds good. I, I just made my husband come home and collect everyone, all the kids, the dog.

I'm jealous.

Hopefully it's a quiet house now.

I did text my husband and say, when are you coming home? So I want to tell you about Ashley because she is an amazing lady. Ashley Bartley, M.E.D., NCC. Wears many hats as a nationally board-certified school counselor, curriculum writer, children's book author, wife, and mom. Bartley infuses creativity into the lessons and resources she creates for the 700 pre-K through 5 elementary school students she works with every day. That's a lot of kids.

So many.

So many kids. She is an ASC. She's a grief and loss specialist, anxiety and stress management specialist, and diversity, equity, and inclusion specialist, and is certified in youth mental health first aid. Bartley's new release, Jasper Lizard Wants to Stay Home— oh, that sounds wonderful— is the 4th title in the Diamond, Opal, and Friends book series. She explores why sometimes young kids refuse to go to school and what can give them the confidence to try school again. Well, that is quite the list of credentials, let me tell you. That is impressive.

Thank you.

What does NCC stand for?

Uh, National Certified Counselor.

Okay, that makes total sense. Well, and speaking of being a counselor, I would love to know what led you to become a counselor.

I, um, so I, when I went to college, I actually started out pre-med. I wanted to be an optometrist. Um, then I took biology and did not thrive. And, um, so I switched into the elementary education program, and I wanted to be a teacher like my mom. Um, but then after doing the first year or two of that program, I started volunteering at a summer camp, and I was a camp counselor. And I realized that the more like one-on-one conversations and small group interactions were more like just a better fit with my personality. So I switched into a psychology program and then got my master's for school counseling. And I love it. It's like the sweet spot. It's perfect.

Oh, it's, it's so awesome when we find things that we love to do.

Yeah.

And you took, you really stressed you focus on anxiety, stress, and loss. So how did you go that route?

Well, I think those have all been more lately. You know, I used to do a lot of like bully prevention and things like that. That. And then with COVID and the pandemic and just the rise in anxiety in kids and adults, I really, I mean, just, we had to, you know, we had to, to learn a lot of strategies for that. And then my school had a couple of really significant losses last year. We lost a student and a staff member within like 2 weeks of each other.

Oh my goodness.

And it was just a lot. Um, and the, the student was in my son's class, and so it was just kind of hitting me. I'm getting goosebumps. It was just hitting me from all angles, from the counseling angle, the parent, you know, the coworker angle. He was one of my students. And so I just really focused on, um, grief and just, I wanted to, um, I wanted to just use all of that, like almost that energy that I had from going through that process. To kind of put together resources for other counselors that have had that happen at their school as well, just so that they don't have to scramble, you know, the way that we did. Um, and so, you know, I just kind of, you know, in the weeks after that, just that was my way of processing everything was I made lists of like what we did and how we helped and, and what could have been more helpful and things like that.

Well, and I'll tell you, unfortunately, um, A little girl died recently in the community from cancer. Oh gosh. And I know that there's so many teachers and kids struggling with this loss right now.

Yeah.

Any words of wisdom for them that you've learned along the way? Because I know they're struggling.

Yeah. And it also depends on that child's family and their wishes. So I always say the first thing is to just check in with them and see what they're okay with. You know, is it okay to tell the class, you know, You want to see what you can tell them, how much you can tell them. And then parents would just want to keep it age-appropriate, you know, their conversations with their kids, but also keep it honest. I always say, you know, use that word like death or died because little kids get really confused when you say that like we lost someone or someone passed.

Oh, I like that advice.

Yes, they don't like— they think, oh, maybe they're coming back or their parent can't find them. So Being like very direct with language is also something we— I mean, I had to pull all the teachers aside and tell them that before they, you know, we talked to their classes, like, this is the language we're going to use. And then it's, you know, the school can kind of do different things to commemorate the child. They always say like not to, not to make something that someone would have to pass by every day. But, you know, if there were like— they always say like, don't plant a tree like right in front of the school because that could be triggering for some kids. But I know at my school we have like a pond in the courtyard and it's not a highly trafficked place. And so that's kind of where we put things like that if people need a minute.

That's wonderful. That is such good advice. And you're talking about anxiety and I, you know, we see so many kids struggling with anxiety right now. You've mentioned not wanting to go to school. I've seen a child not want to go on a field trip, you know, not want to go to school for so many different reasons.

Right.

Test, test anxiety. I mean, I could go on and on about what I'm seeing with anxiety with kids. I mean, how can parents help their kids with that stuff?

Yeah. Um, I mean, it does depend on what, you know, what it is. Is it— we have a lot of both of what you were talking about, the school anxiety or separation anxiety. And right now at my school, it's test— actually, we just finished up testing season, so I was seeing a lot of test anxiety there. Um, so, you know, I think that the, the parents, um, like, their approach to talking about it with their kids can be helpful. Like, speaking positively about the school and about the teachers can be helpful. Um, I always say for test anxiety, like, use language like, you get to take the test. Um, I tell my third graders, like, you guys are finally old enough, you get to take the big test.

I love that.

It's a big state test that you've been cheering on everybody each year, and now you're old enough to do it, and you show your teacher and your family what you know. And, and, you know, I help them kind of say like personal mantras to themselves, like, I can do this, I'm ready for this. Um, I also try to help, so I, I have them say that instead of like, I have to take the test, like, I don't want to go to school, I have to take this test today. So that's part of one thing I try to like teach the kids. I also try to help them point out things they can control about the test and things they can't control to see that they really do have a lot more control than they think. You know, they can control what they wear that day. They can control how much they study and how well prepared they are. They can control that they have the supplies they need, their water bottle filled, their, their computer devices charged, you know, all that kind of thing. And really the only thing they can't control a lot of times are the noises in the room and where they sit and the questions. So when they kind of see that spelled out for them, that's helpful too. And then I just try to teach strategies that they can use like before and during the test.

Yeah, that's big right now where we are. There's like final exams coming.

Yeah.

And the funniest thing to me— it's not funny— but not wanting to go on a field trip. It's like that change in routine.

Yeah.

And what do you mean we're going on a field trip? I just want to go to school all day. But I love what you said about telling our kids, well, you get to go on this field trip. Yeah, I love that. I love that language.

And I think it could be overwhelming to even think about. I know for my kids— so I have 3 kids who go to my school. I have a kindergartner, a 2nd grader, and a 5th grader. My 2nd grader, he just went on the first field trip he's ever been on because of COVID They've never—

he's never had one.

So He had actually never stepped foot on a school bus before until about a week ago, and he's 8 years old.

Yeah, that makes sense.

You know, they didn't grow up going on field trips, you know, when they were in kindergarten and stuff. So I think that that could be, like you said, the change in their routine. They don't know what to expect. They might not have been a lot of places outside of their school with COVID So I'm wondering if maybe that is more of a now problem than it was a few years ago.

Well, and you're bringing up Such a good point. Cause I forgot there were no field trips for like 2 years. Yeah. So it's not like they're used to going on field trips.

No, not at all.

No.

My, my oldest, I mean, he, he missed out on all the big trips that they were supposed to go on, like to Jamestown and to Washington, DC. Those were all the like milestone trips that they just didn't take over the last few years because of COVID So sad.

I know they missed so much. Yeah. So much. But you talk a lot about kids not wanting to go to school. I think one of your books is even about that.

It is. One of my newest ones is.

Now, what is your new book called again?

So it's called Jasper Lizard Wants to Stay Home.

Oh yeah. Oh, I love it. Oh my gosh, that's awesome. And why, and why does Jasper not want to go to school?

Well, his is not any specific problem. It's not that there's a bully or anything like that. He just doesn't want to be there. He'd rather stay home and play video games.

So in the book, does he in the end want to go to school?

He does. So his grown-ups or his parents work together with some people at school to kind of put some strategies in place to get him to want to come to school each day. Like they have him sit by— well, they have him ride the bus That's what we always recommend first and foremost. If there's any way that you can put the child on the bus so that that separation happens at home instead of in front of the building, that will make it easier for everybody. So they get him on the bus, they give him like a transition object to carry to school. Um, so he picks like a little toy out of his room. He has like a quick special goodbye he says with his grown-ups at home. Um, you know, they don't try to linger. They don't try to sneak off, but they just a very direct, quick goodbye. And then he has some friends in the classroom that he looks forward to seeing, and he has like a job that he does in the classroom each morning. So those are all like ways, you know, some just different strategies that they came up with in the story.

I love it. When I was younger, I did not want to go to school, and I know my mom talked to teachers at school and they helped her. Work through the issues of how to get me to want to go to school. So I think partnering with school is so important.

Definitely, yes.

Right. Well, and so many things to ask you. Transitions. Let's talk about transitions. We're going into summer. And I mean, me personally, my daughter is leaving middle school and going to high school. Oh yeah. There's other kids. I know. There's other kids leaving elementary school and going to middle school, and then there's some little kids who haven't even set foot in school yet, right? So I mean, how as parents can this summer and getting ready for school, how can we help them with the transition? Sure.

So for those little ones just going to school for the first time, that was the situation I faced last year with my kindergartner. I mean, he had been to preschools, of course, but, um, he had never been to kindergarten. So you know, we did all of the things the school offered, um, the orientations, the back-to-school nights, you know, meeting the teacher. He got to see his cubby and look at his desk. Um, he played with some of the kids ahead of time that would be there. So all those kind of things, you know, while— I mean, he had, he had always kind of come and gone with me anyway, like he had been in the school. So that was kind of a unique situation. But, um, you know, all of those things were helpful, um, helping him kind of get into a routine ahead of time. So like practicing getting up early, um, you could even— parents could even like practice walking with their child to the bus stop if they're going to ride the bus, or practice the drive to school and like where to get out of the car. And you know, if the school allows it, like if they would let you practice walking in and finding your classroom, um, Some kids, we've even, I mean, kids can do that on a, like an open house or orientation night, but we have also worked individually with kids if they're feeling really anxious about it and we'll work one-on-one. And I mean, we had a little girl a couple years ago, we probably walked her from her car to her classroom 20 times in a row just until she felt confident that she could do it the first day because she was really anxious. And we were all happy to do that because if it's gonna make it easier for her and it's gonna help her have a positive experience with school, then we're happy to do that. Um, my favorite transition is the transition to middle school though. Um, that is my— I don't know if that's like my sweet spot, but I teach that in 5th grade in our classroom counseling lessons, and we do like a 4-part unit for that. Um, we talk about like what they're worried about with going to middle school, and it's neat because they can see that other kids have the same worries We kind of break down some of the myths about middle school, like getting stuck in lockers or having to shower after PE, things that in, at least in our area, don't happen. Um, we talk about what they're excited about with middle school, and then I even bring in like a set of combination locks, and the kids get to practice opening their combination lock because that always seems to be the biggest fear. Yeah, once they master that, they're like, okay, I can go to middle school.

This is fine. True. It's so true. I remember asking my daughter what she was most nervous about. She's like, I'm never going to be able to do that combination lock.

So we do that, and we'll, we'll like end up having relay races and team games, and the kids get really into it. Um, and for the kids that are still struggling with it even after, I always offer that they can either come and practice with me during lunch or recess, or they can just get a lock, you know, from the store over the summer and practice. And I said they all work the same way, so As long as they know the right, left, right pattern, they can get it. And then we actually go on a field trip to the middle school too, and I take them and they get to see the layout of the school and meet the teachers and hear from some of the older kids what it's really like. So it's always just such a fun time of year because, you know, there's so much anticipation and excitement.

It's so true. I don't know about you, we both have 3 children, but I think that by the time we get to our third child, they can't wait to go wherever the older kids are. So my daughter, I was so nervous to send my baby to middle school, but she ran.

Yeah, that makes sense. I, my oldest son couldn't even attend his orientation for middle school, so I went and I took the two younger boys and they were, they were completely into it. They were ready to go to middle school by the end. They were asking me questions.

Oh my gosh, that's wonderful.

I get that.

Oh, well, you know, I think that we send our kids to school all day. They're on their own. They're learning so many skills, and we want them to be able to ask for help and advocate for themselves. And I know that I struggle to teach my youngest that. I'm still working on it. So what advice do you have for us to help our kids learn to ask for help, learn to advocate for themselves?

Yeah, that's great because You know, in my job as a school counselor, people may think that we just like give advice all the time, but I always say that, you know, I'm there to help them learn to advocate for themselves and to ask for help because I'm not always going to be there. And I always say, you know, it's really important to have at least like one person that is your trusted person you go to. It's even more helpful if you can have like one at home and one at school. So if you're at school, maybe it's your teacher, counselor, coach. Maybe it's— if it's at home, maybe it's like an uncle or a, um, an older sibling, or a, um, a much older sibling, or a parent, or someone just to have that relationship and connection. Um, and there's a quote that's like— I can never like say it right, but it's, it's like, when your kids are little, listen to the little things they tell you because when they're older, they'll tell you the big things, and to them it has always been big. And so I try to keep that in mind with my own kids and also with the kids at school. You know, like sometimes my principal will say, um, like, oh, there's like 4th grade girl drama, and I'll say, bring it to me, bring it to me, I, I want to hear this, because I know it matters to them. Yeah, they need someone in their court that'll just listen, listen to them.

I love that they have you. They're all very lucky to have you.

Thank you.

Now, we, I think we've gotten in somewhat of a routine. Mornings are still crazy, and I know you're really good at establishing morning routines. So, so help us out with our mornings.

Yes, and I'm not perfect either. I mean, I wish I could say that my household is a well-oiled machine. If I had it the way that I want it, it would be, but I can't control these Um, but I, I mean, I think a lot of people would know this, but just like the more you can do the night before, the better. So, you know, we really try to make sure all the papers are signed, the things are put in the backpack, the backpacks are kept in the same place by the back door. Um, I, when my kids were really little, I had these organizers. I can't do it anymore because their clothes are too big now, but I had this organizer I got from like a craft store and it had like 6 or 7 drawers and we labeled each drawer with, um, the day of the week. And at the beginning of the week, like on Sundays, I would look at the weather and I would look at the clock. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. I don't do it anymore, but it was so helpful at the time. Um, I would look at the weather and like things that were upcoming, like which days the kids had PE or field day or whatever, and we would just pick out all the clothes for the whole week and put them in those drawers. And then when the kids woke up, they could just open the right drawer and put on that outfit. This was back when they were like in preschool and kindergarten. Um, now, you know, they're older, they pretty much wear like athletic clothes all the time, so it's whatever. But back then it really got me through a hard season when the kids were just so tiny. Um, I'm super impressed. Made it that much easier. So yeah, anything they can do, um, the night before is helpful. We try to pack lunches the night before, make their lunch choice if they're gonna be getting it from school the night before, so that when we get up, we can just kind of roll out and, and go.

I have to tell you, so many people have told me to do everything the night before, and I fizzle. I have to tell you, me personally, I fizzle out. Like, I am not a night person at all. So I have found I think for me, I get up really early because I have so much more energy in the morning. Like, I can't seem to get myself to do that, but I can't tell you how many people have told me to do that.

If I were a morning person, see, if I were, maybe I would do it in the morning. But I, I'm, I'm a night owl and I always have been. And so, I mean, I just, I feel like at 10:30 is when the kids are like down and I can finally get stuff done. And it's like, wow, that's what I'm like wide awake. So, but in the morning, I sleep I'm good for nothing in the morning.

So you mothers who are wide awake at 10:30 blow my mind.

It's probably the afternoon coffee.

By 10:30, I'm like, don't talk to me, I'm sleeping.

That's my goal. My goal one day will be go to bed at 10:30, wake up early, be a morning person. But it hasn't happened yet.

I try. I get up with my high schooler in the morning, so I don't have a choice.

Okay, yeah, I have to learn to be a morning person. Yes.

So we really want to raise good humans. All of us want to raise— that's everyone's goal. And we want them to learn the importance of including others and working together. Give us some tips. How can we raise good humans?

Yeah, I, I agree. I think kindness, um, is so important, and including others is so important. Um, it's a hard thing to teach. Um, yeah, it's just, it's such a hard thing to teach. I think just like, there's a book called Be Kind, um, that I use in class a lot, and it does, it has a few words, but, um, the kids can look at and kind of pick out different things that are going on in each picture to see how they can be kind within their classroom and then within their community and then kind of in the larger picture of things. Um, but I think just, I mean, I guess modeling is, is huge with parenting, you know, like, for sure. Um, you know, my, one of my little boys just came in and said, hey, can we take popsicles over to the neighbors? And he learned that because we, my husband, you know, suggested that a couple days ago, like, oh, you guys are all outside, let's take some popsicles out. So even just like helping give them ideas, um, and then maybe like processing their day with them after, you know, like on the way home from school or when they get home. Just talking about like, you know, who did you play with today? Who made you laugh today? What was something kind that you did today? Can all be helpful. I know at my school we have morning meetings, and that's really good for facilitating relationships. If teachers are able to have that in their classroom and build that community, that is also huge because it's just kind of an informal get-to-know-you icebreaker type time when they have fun together and can listen to each other. So that's been really helpful within the last couple years at my school and just teaching relationship building.

It's really good advice. I know that— I don't know if my daughter does it every day. I'm gonna ask her, but I know they at least do it on Fridays.

Oh yeah, that's great.

But I'll find out. They should, they should do it every day. That's a great idea if they have time, right?

That's always the kicker.

They could take up the whole homeroom.

I know when I, when I first started at my school as a counselor, they just weren't used to having a counselor come in and they said no fluff, no fluff in 5th grade. We are all academics. But slowly I've been there about, I've been at my current school about 8 years and they let me come now.

And you're like, here comes the fluff.

Yes. Let me teach those soft skills. Here they come.

You know what? I, I know I'm a social worker, but I think it's more important than the academic skills. I know I'm biased.

Well, and social emotional learning has become— I mean, it's kind of a buzzword right now, but yeah, it just becomes so important. And I think that there's so much more buy-in now, but it's always been part of, you know, the counseling and social work professions to, to hit those skills with the kids.

For sure. What do you think the best piece of advice is you've ever given, received, either one? Gosh, I think, I think in the last several years, boundaries are really important.

Just having boundaries with your family and with work. Um, you know, I wish my kids— I wish we could say yes to every birthday party invitation we, yeah, we get and do and go everywhere, but I really try to protect our family time. Um, because, you know, as I— as my kids get older, I see how quickly the time goes by. I know everybody says that, but it really is true. Um, and the same with work, you know. I used to be one that would stay really late and get there really early, um, and say yes to everything. And now I've kind of learned where to create boundaries at work so that I'm then protecting my family time. Um, I try to also We try to do dinner around the dining room table as much as possible. My kids are getting way more involved in sports now, and we're constantly— I mean, they're at 2 sports right now, um, but just the constant driving them everywhere, you know, we're bound to get fast food or something like once or twice a week. But I really try to protect that time where we're all sitting around the table eating together as much as we can. So I think boundaries have really really become the, the most important lately for me.

100%. If, if we let it, their activities will suck every minute of our time.

That is very true. And I know, like, with my 3, I mean, I pretty much have to let them each only do like one thing because otherwise it just multiplies.

I know, it gets out of control. I love their interest, but I can't live in my car.

Yes, exactly.

I mean, what do you see? What do you think parents are struggling most with right now?

I think, I think they're struggling a lot, a lot of times with their own anxiety, um, and their own, their own things, and then the kids are picking up on it. I mean, that's what I'm seeing from the kids at school anyway. Yeah, you know, I kind of in the way that the kids talk, I know that they're hearing it with their grown-ups at home. Um, and I think that's just the nature of the world right now. There's just a lot, um, and we're busy. And, um, you know, the last just several years have been so different, um, that there's, there's just so much anxiety. So that, and just being so busy, and with all the activities starting back up, you know, um, yeah, it's just, it's hard to do it all. And you can't, you can't do it all. You have to really pick and choose what's important and what matters to you.

It's really good advice. I know I asked you a lot. Is there anything else that you want to share that I didn't ask you?

Oh, that's good. Um, I think I know I've noticed a lot— maybe this kind of piggybacks on your last question— I've noticed more and more that pediatricians seem to be referring the kids back to counselors school just because it's so hard to get them in anywhere for help. Um, and so just, you know, knowing that like the school counselor can't really provide long-term therapy, therapy or anything like that, but just, you know, supporting your child and helping them as much as you can and trying to get them into counseling if they need it, um, even if the waitlist is long. Um, something. It has just changed a lot in the last couple years where it seems like we need so many more resources and we just don't have, you know, the enough support.

That's what I hear the most is that I'm on a waitlist. I'm trying to find someone. I hear it all the time.

Yeah, it's so hard.

Well, tell everyone where to find these awesome books and, and you, where can they find you?

So I am Ashley Bartley. I'm on Instagram. Um, at Counselor Station. I'm also on Facebook at Counselor Station, and my website is counselorstation.com. Um, perfect. That all comes from— I make— I write a lot of curriculum for school counselors, and so I have a store on TPT, and then Boys Town Press has all of my books on their website.

Awesome. Well, I can't thank you enough for your time and your expertise today.

Thank you so much for inviting me. This has been really fun to chat with you today.

I loved talking to you, and I learned so much, and I'm sure that so many parents are going to listen to this and learn a lot from you.

I hope it's helpful.

I'm sure it is. I'm positive. This is Rebecca Greene reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Whiny Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, Please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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