Episode 276: Understanding Our Children with Leslie Cohen Rubury

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am so excited today because I get to talk to Leslie Cohen-Ruberry. Leslie, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Oh, thank you for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here with you as well.

Uh, she has so much experience that I'm going to tell you about, and we're going to learn so much from her today. She is a licensed clinical social worker. With an MSW as well as a master's in special education, which is amazing that you have both. She has 38 years experience working with families and children in school and community settings with a private practice in Redding, Connecticut, providing individual, family, and marital therapy. Leslie has ongoing parenting groups and regularly conducts workshops and lectures in the community. She is intensely trained in dialectic behavior therapy and now leads several DBT groups for adults, teenagers, and their families. This work focuses on developing skills that increase our competency to be our best selves. Leslie has a new endeavor, and this is her podcast called My Child— Is My Child a Monster? Which is, I told her, is the best title ever. We're going to talk about that. It's a parenting therapy podcast. Leslie has been married for 42 years. We're gonna talk about that too, and has 3 children, a 36-year-old son and 33-year-old twin girls. She is thrilled to have a daughter-in-law, son-in-law, and 2 young grandchildren as well. Leslie is passionately committed to helping people develop a new perspective and new skills to enhance their emotional wellbeing and mental health. Well, you know, I have to say wow to all of that.

That is a lot.

And that's a lot of experience. And I want to take us backwards before I ask you about the podcast title. Okay, I want to know, I want to know what inspired you to become a therapist.

Oh, okay, that's great. Um, I, it was funny growing up, I loved working with kids. My mother said, you're going to work with kids. And I wasn't sure that if she was seeing what I was actually interested in, or You know, anyway, it was very interesting. Um, I loved working with kids. So when I went to school, child development was my interest. Um, back then I always thought psychology would be the way I would go. And interestingly enough, I got my master's— I mean, I got my undergraduate degree and then I started working. I had my husband was who I met at school, was staying around for another year. And there was a program in special ed that was 18 months long. I said, I'll do this. And so I started working with kids. Um, and I've found it fascinating to understand how to assess children from a different perspective. My training was really eye-opening in terms of looking at people with a new perspective, not just what they say or what they do or how they score on a test. So working with kids really did open my eyes. So I was in special ed for about 2 years, and then I realized all of these kids go home to their families. And at that point, I had a very strong calling to work with the families because I felt that they needed help and they weren't getting the help. And that's how I landed on, you know, I went back to school and got a second master's.

I love that story. And I love that you have the special ed background too. That must be so helpful.

Very helpful. It really helps to see, I think both of the things influence my perspective. You know, I have a systems perspective. I look at the big picture when I'm at, when a problem comes my way. Way I don't narrow my vision. I actually broaden my focus so that I can see a bigger picture because there are so many factors affecting us.

So true. That is so true. And I'm so excited that you started a podcast because I told you before we started, I think you have my favorite voice of everybody I've interviewed. I just love— I love your voice and I love that you're bringing that to a podcast. So tell us where you got the title of this podcast.

The title is really authentic because I was sitting in therapy over and over again. Like I said, you read that I do a lot of family therapy, a lot of parenting. A lot of people come to me and say, my child's got a problem. But what they would say to me is they actually more than once, many times I heard, is my child a monster? And one family went so far as to say, is my child going to be a sociopath?

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

That was my reaction, which is my heart breaks for the child. My heart breaks for the parents. And so What happened in those sessions is that I would offer parents a new perspective and I'd start with, no, your child is not a monster. Your child is misunderstood. And so that was the basis. And you know, I just, how could I not use that title? Although when I actually was picking the, I mean, that came authentically, but then when it was like time to actually say, okay, what's the title of my podcast? I got really nervous because I, canvassed a bunch of people and they went, "Ooh, that's a bit harsh. And I don't know if I'd listen to that." And I didn't want to narrow my audience, you know, because I didn't want only parents who thought their children were monsters to be the listeners. Because the truth is, we do misunderstand our children. Our chil— all of our children misbehave at some point. And it's the misbehavior that I'm talking about. Can we understand what our children are trying to communicate when they misbehave? And that's the basis of the podcast. Helping parents understand what that misbehavior means, or just even if a child is not misbehaving and they're a people pleaser, do we understand that child? So I use a lot of my own experience. I use a lot of experience that I've had over these so many years, almost 40 years of being working with families and seeing kids.

So, and something, something you said really spoke to me. Um, you know, like I told you, I was loving your website and you were talking about your daughter. You you asked her— okay, let's hope I remember the story accurately— you asked her to go get something and she said no. And our immediate response to that would be, hey, that's non-compliance, what the heck. But you discovered that she was scared. And it's like we jump to these conclusions.

Yes, beautifully said. We jump to these conclusions because that's what we see in front of our face. We see our children say, you know, no to us. And I have a feeling if I had taken her to get assessed by psychiatrist, she could have gotten the diagnosis of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder. But her defiance— and we need to look, there are children who might, that diagnosis might fit. But there are many, many, many children who have anxiety, have a difficulty expressing it. So their misbehavior is the communication. They are telling us when they say no, I want to, as a parent, take a moment and just look and say, what is this really trying to tell me? And yes, I, you know, I would say, you know, Dale, you have very good reason for saying no. And she'd say, yeah, I'm afraid to go out or I'm afraid of the dark or, you know, that's too scary. And I'd go, okay, great. That's really good information. And interestingly enough, we need a little bit of a paradoxical question to our children because the why aren't you going and why aren't you doing what I say? Number one, that has a tone, of course. And number two, The whys are like putting a flashlight in someone's eye. They don't get to the answer because they don't know the answer.

Mm-hmm.

So the paradoxical question of, you must have a very good reason for saying no or hitting your brother, will often produce— it just comes from another place where it, you know, neuro-linguistic programming might be able to help us explain it. I don't have the science behind it, but I do know that the paradoxical question allows us to think differently. It gives the kids a chance to answer the question from a different place of— instead of interrogation, you're coming at them with curiosity.

Oh, I love that so much. I'm going back to me not wanting to go to school because, you know, some of the kids we work with don't want to go to school. And I would say, no, I'm not going. And thankfully, my parents understood that it was anxiety. I wasn't trying to be a bad kid. I was just like, no, I'm not going.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. That is a big problem today.

Getting curious and understanding the behavior. I think it's hard. Okay, so what kind of questions can help us understand the behavior better? What can we ask?

We can slow down, number one, because when we're reactive and say, don't talk to me that way, I asked you to do it, don't, you know, and we just get into the automatic responses, then we're on automatic. Pilot. And I don't know, that's not per— I don't look good on automatic pilot. I look much better. And we access in DBT, we call it our wise mind. And when we react, we're often acting without thinking, which is our emotion mind. We're impulsive. It can be emotional. And so it's often our emotion mind reacting rather than our wise mind. And so we wanna pause and give ourselves a chance to say, Okay. And the first thing I do to say to a child is I give them back that information. Wow. You just told me that you're not going outside to get the, you know, to get the, to go to the garage, to get me what I asked you to get. And then it might be okay. The kid, the child gets to think about it, which believe it or not is raising a responsible child. 'Cause we want them to think, why did they just say no? Right? We want them to have the emotional intelligence to be able to say, no, mom, I'm sorry. I am scared. Could you go with me? Or could you ask Carrie? Or could you, you know, they may actually come up with a solution that works. Mom, can I go do something else for you? But I'm really scared to go outside. So we really want to start to get, excuse me, we want to get, um, a more open perspective and curiosity, as we said. And so I would start with noticing and giving them that feedback. So I would reflect back what I heard them say. Safe. It gives you time. It allows everyone to calm down and it's just reflecting. Okay. It sounds like you don't want to go outside. Then I might go, I'm curious. You must have a good reason for not wanting to go outside. It's a standard line I use and it works. It works so many times. The other thing that I might say, uh, what else can we say when a child doesn't want to go to school is okay. We've got a problem here. You've got, on one hand, there's a part of you that probably really wants to go to school and be like other kids. And another part of you that does not wanna go to school because it's really scary for you. So now I would present them with the dilemma. They don't know that they're in a dilemma. They are thinking all or nothing in that moment. The all or nothing is I can't go to school. I feel anxious. And so And if I said to you, if you can remember that 9-year-old that didn't want to go to school, if I said to you, hey, I bet there's a part of you that wants to go to school like your sister or your friends or something like that, you'd probably go, yes, I wish I could go to school. I wish it was easier. But we want to tap into, you're not an all or nothing, and that emotion is a part of you, not all of you. So then I would give them that information. I might say, okay, so there's a part of you that wants to go to school and a part of you that really doesn't want to go to school. Who do you wanna be in charge? Your wise mind or emotion mind? Right? Let's sit down and problem solve. Do we need some ideas for how to deal with the emotion? Do we need some ideas of how to get you to school because you wanna get there? And so now I would start brainstorming and problem solving, but that's where parents start. I want that to be not the last resort, but I don't want it to be the first line of action because it gives the child the message, you need to be fixed and you're broken and something's wrong and you need to be fixed. And I'd rather say, not a problem here. You're anxious. Fine. Okay. Let's deal with it. It's really first, let's accept the child where they are, begin where they are.

Well, and I think that as you're describing the situation and, and, you know, and I'm guilty of this too, we all do this. We respond, with our emotional anger. We're angry that they're not doing what we want them to do. Just go to school. So we get mad and we don't necessarily look for what is, what is the reason, what is going on. Let's understand what's going on.

Yes, yes, yes. I really— that's the title is My Child's a Monster of my podcast. But the idea is no, they're misunderstood. So let's start to understand our children. And That's not easy.

No, that is. And as you can agree with, because we both have 3 kids, yes, every child is so different. So they're all a mystery. And it's like we're constantly solving and resolving very different children.

Yes. And I, I may— this was something I learned and I share in my practice, but the defiant one is the one that gets a lot of attention. They're loud. They're saying no all the time. They're, you know, there's definitely a lot of attention given to the difficult, you know, the one that's saying no and the oppositional one. The problem was I actually missed what was going on with my easygoing son. He was so easygoing. He was a people pleaser. He said he did everything, you know, Travis, can you do this? I mean, he usually got his sisters to do it, but everything got done. He was clever. And it wasn't until he was an adult where he shared with me how much anxiety it was actually growing up and our fit. And I talk about this on the podcast and in other places that the fit, that his easygoing homebody and my very hyperactive, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, was not the best fit because he needed a little quiet. So when you say our children are individuals, we not only want to see our children as individuals, but we want to look at the fit that the adults and the caregivers, the parents or caregivers, have with our children. Because for me, I was going, come on, let's go, let's go. And he was the homebody.

Oh, you're describing my family to a T.

Yes, so many of us have the— it's a family is diverse. It's a—

yes, I'm so much like you. I'm so much like you, the go, go, go. Um, you know, and I have to tell you, you know, the firstborn— and, and I'm just describing my family, every family is different— the firstborn is like this is what I need, and he speaks up. And the youngest is like the, you know, they act out if something isn't, you know, I don't have to worry about her. Um, the middle is the easygoing one who I can easily, you know, Ella, forgive me if you hear this, but I can easily forget about her because she's so easy.

Yes, yes, yes. That's, yeah, that's the idea is that, um, with our easygoing kids, they have the same needs as the child that's more challenging and grabbing our attention more. So parenting is a hard job. And I, I really like in my last few episodes, I was just talking about giving compassion to ourselves, getting rid of some of the parenting shoulds. Yeah, you know, the shoulds we place on ourselves, the shoulds that we pick up from society. You know, if we stay present and show up and keep learning, that's great. I mean, I'm still learning. I'm still interacting with my adult children in, in healthy and healthy. Every day I try to be more healthy with my children.

So I love that.

Yes. So you don't have 18 years and then it's over. You're going to have a lifetime of interactions if you create the foundation of connection. That's what doesn't— yeah.

Yep. Hey, I am— how old am I? I'm 47. Yes. And I still talk to my mother every day.

Yes. Yes, indeed.

So I— one of my favorite lines that you say, okay, is that we need to practice being comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And that— I don't know if you realize how meaningful that line is. That is beautiful. Can you explain to us what you mean by that?

Yes. Let's think. There are so many examples, but in this day and age, The parenting trend has been, and you know, we, I don't even know what we call those parents. So there's a bulldozer parent, there's, there's a hovering parent. Parents have tried to smooth out the road so our children don't feel pain. Their intention is beautiful. I get that one of the most painful things for a parent is to experience the pain of our child, to witness the pain of our children. And we actually have to learn how to do that. But so our children need to also learn how to cope because my definition of coping is learning to be comfortable in an uncomfortable situation. So coping is our ability to handle a tough situation. In DBT, you know, we talk about different ways to deal with a problem. First way is if you can fix it and solve it, go for it. Like, right? You have a flat tire. There's no reason to sit there and accept this flat tire and be mindful to it. At that point, you want to, fix it and figure out what to do with it. Um, at the same time, the second way of handling a problem is change the way we see the problem. And then the third is to accept and tolerate the problem. So, uh, what was the question you just asked me? I forgot. I got distracted with tangent.

Becoming, becoming comfortable with uncomfortable.

So that last one, accepting and tolerating a situation that actually is where we need to go first. So even with the flat tire, I need to accept the fact that this flat tire's here, because if I scream and I get angry that it shouldn't have happened and why did this happen and blame someone, it's not getting me anywhere. Right? Right.

Right.

So I don't think right now we know how to be uncomfortable and manage that. I think there's— and the paradox is that there's so much discomfort out in the world. There's so much conflict. There's so much polarity. There's so much pain and suffering that it You know, I get that we don't want to be comfortable with it. And I'm not saying complacent. I'm saying tolerating and accepting reality the way it is. So radical acceptance is a skill we teach in DBT, a really important one that says it is what it is, right? That's not a new line. It is what it is. And so when our children are misbehaving, we go with, you shouldn't have done that, or you should be doing this, or we have expectations. And even when a child comes home from school and says, I forgot my I forgot my lunch today. And we go into, well, if you packed it in the night or you did what I asked you to, you wouldn't have forgotten it. I want to say to that child, wow, you were uncomfortable. You didn't have your lunch. How did you handle that discomfort? Good for you. Let's celebrate that you got through a difficult situation. Whether it's forgetting their lunch, forgetting their violin, forgetting their homework, or just having a friend, you know, we go into problem solving so quickly. I say, let's celebrate the uncertainty, the discomfort, and respect that that is a step in and of itself. Let's not skip it. Let's not go right by it. And you know, if your child is tired and hungry or they're whining, they're whining, right? For a moment, allow that to be, because sometimes we just want to say, Yeah, I hear you. It's no fun when I ask you to put your dish away and you are just so tired from your day, you don't think you have any more energy. I get it. That's uncomfortable. And so I don't run away from being uncomfortable. I teach people, yeah, I get it. I see your discomfort and you seem to be, what are you doing with that? You can do nothing with it because it'll pass. You can sit quietly with it, your discomfort. So there's a lot of strategies that we actually teach to help people cope. And those are all coping skills. But one of the coping skills is distraction. Another whole set of them are mindful awareness that I am just uncomfortable.

I never thought about it that way. And I have, I have two things going off in my brain about this that I want to ask you about. So, okay. So let's say, let's talk about my son. I'm just giving an example.

Perfect.

So he is needing my help. You know, let's just say he's completely exhausted, you know, football, school, et cetera. Mom, can you just do this for me? Okay. So I, I mean, you're not gonna be surprised. I wanna always rescue my kids.

Sure.

It's innate. It's very hard for me to fight. And he wants to go up to bed and I swoop in and rescue him and do whatever it is that he asked me to do. Mm-hmm. So part of me listening to you is that they need to cope and understand how to deal with those uncomfortable situations. And part of Part of me is thinking we have to learn to ask for help. So those two things are playing. I don't know how to decipher between the two things cuz I want them to ask people for help.

Excellent. It's not one or the other. The definition of dialectic is holding two opposing ideas at the same time. So in this case, I actually would find some synthesis, some kind of, um, balance between both of those. Values that you have. Random acts of kindness are just a beautiful thing of human connection, asking for help, someone saying, "Sure, I'm happy to help you," as opposed to, "No, do it," you know, asking for help and then not reinforcing the quality of asking for help. So I love that. And yes, sometimes we just wanna do those random acts of kindness because we are reinforcing someone asked for help and I'm gonna get of it. And there's the and, not but. Yeah, there's the and is, yes. And sometimes it's like, oh, I don't think you have another ounce in you to do what I just asked you to do. I'll see you upstairs. All I did was validate. I didn't rescue. I didn't say anything. I didn't say you better do it anyway. I just validated. Yeah, I don't think you have anything, any more energy left inside. And, you know, and I think you, you're, I would just say, and I'll see you upstairs when we, when you get upstairs.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's tough.

And I, and I love the both answer. Yes. I think, I think both is an excellent answer to a lot of things.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Now I don't feel pressured to find the right answer because there is no right answer. I, I gotta be smart here as a therapist. I wanna feel like I'm doing a good job.

Oh, you are smart.

That's no, the idea, and this comes from dialectic behavior therapy, is holding the two different opposing ones with the and. It's just the magic and. It's wonderful. It gives us—

I love that word. I love the word and. I love that word. Well, and you're intensely trained in dialectic behavior therapy. And I think that a lot of people don't exactly understand what that is. Can you tell everyone what that is?

Sure. Dialectic behavior therapy is a form of therapy that was started by a woman named Marsha Linehan. She's truly brilliant. And the therapy has addressed with an evidence-based model. It's completely based in evidence that people with very big emotions, interpersonal challenges, behavioral challenges, impulsivity, some of the more complex issues that humans may be dealing with. This therapy is designed to help people. And in the 25, I think it's maybe more, 30 years that it's been around, 40 years that's been around, I'm not even sure. Intensively trained DBT means that you have been trained in the full protocol of— there's the foundational training is just a 10-day training where you are being trained in all 4 areas of comprehensive DBT. So if you learn a few DBT skills, uh, and you can teach DBT skills, that is not intensively trained because there's individual therapy, there's group skills therapy. There's a, um, consultation to a team that's important. And then the last area is that we do coaching calls to help people who, um, don't have the impulse control or the skill development as of yet. So intensively trained means you understand the entire therapeutic model and you use it with integrity because without using it to integrity, we can't say that it is evidence-based and that it help. So I can say I'm DBT informed, or I'm doing DBT informed work with someone. I might— someone might not need the full comprehensive program, then I would just say we're doing DBT informed therapy. Great skills. I call the DBT skills life skills, because they are just the most wonderful set of skills that are now being taught in schools. And I— yes, where I live in Connecticut, the schools around us are are starting to put it in their special ed department, their regular curriculum, more at the high school level and the middle school than at elementary. But you watch and see our children or my grandchildren, they will all have the opportunity to learn these skills in school, which is just brilliant.

Holy moly. That is amazing.

Yes. Yes. These are, wow. These skills are beautiful. And there are DBT groups which teach these skills. I love teaching 'em because I practice what I preach when I teach.

I totally agree with that. Totally agree. We can't teach it if we're not doing it. Well, we can't teach it as well if we're not doing it.

That's right. That's right.

So, so let's talk about our daughters, because I'm going to tell you from reading about you, your daughter Dale, my daughter Lily, have been our greatest teachers. Okay. So I would love to hear from you what you have learned from your daughter.

Ah, beautiful. I learned that I can't go on the assumption that what I know is right. So I let go of the idea of rightness. Um, I love, I'm a control person. I love being right. Right. And so when my daughter came along, it was like, mm, no, this is not working. And so I replaced the shoulds and it's right. And because I said so with, is this working? I ask myself, I ask her, and when it's not working, I just learned that I needed to do something different. So basically with my master's in special ed and my master's in social work, I had all these behavioral strategies and I had all these other things and nothing was working. So I had to try something different. Um, that was on the therapeutic side. That was more my professional side. Like she will say, you know, mom, I made you who you are as a therapist. And I'm like, yep, yep. It really informed my, my professional. On a personal level, really, she, she definitely helped me see who I am. I had the same emotional, big emotions, huge emotions and reactivity that she had. So just as she needed emotional regulation, I needed emotional regulation. And so I got to to teach and learn at the same time. But really all three of my children, like I said, all of my children have taught me, um, you know, right off the top of my head, my daughter Carrie taught me to not be judgmental. 'Cause I would say things and I'd be judgmental. And that's how I grew up in my Jewish family home. And we just, everything was a judgment and I thought nothing of it. But then my kids said, Ma, do you realize that doesn't feel good? And I was like, okay, I'm gonna, and they still to this day said, Do you mean to be judgmental? And I'm like, oh no, let me say that again. And I developed it. Just say try again. So I use that as a skill for parents. Try it again to their children, for themselves. And my older son taught me to see what is not there. Don't make assumption that everything is fine just because on the surface it looks fine. So I keep growing, I keep learning. And then there's the marriage, which there's a lot of learning in that relationship as well. Yes, basically relationships really are, they're hidden gems. And the way I look at it is that the tension in our relationships, the tension in our life is an opportunity for growth. And that's, we've heard this before. Um, you know, another, and you know, there's, there's sayings that, you know, another growth opportunity is like, yes, I'm going to look at the tension that I feel with my children, or my spouse as an opportunity to turn it around and not say, what is my child doing wrong? What is my spouse doing wrong? But the key for me is turning it around and saying, what, what's going on with me? Maybe I'm overworked. Maybe I'm unhappy. Maybe I don't have the skill to deal with something. So I actually, again, it's a both. It's not they, it's, they have some part of it and I have a part of it. It, and I look at my part.

That was said so perfectly. And, you know, let's— I'm going to give you a tiny tension that you're making me aware of. The tension with the 16-year-old is me learning to let go. That's all on me. That's all on me. He's not doing anything wrong. He's doing what he's supposed to be doing, and I have to learn how to parent a 16-year-old. So that's right. So that was really helpful for me, what you just said. Yes.

So turn it around and see the gift in it. The gift is, wow, if I let go, then actually our relationship will get better. Because if I'm holding on too tight, he needs to pull away harder. His, his, you know, developmental task is to, to, you know, become more independent and feel that. And so if I can make it harder on him and by holding on, holding on, and he has to work work harder, or I can let go and we can keep our connection. So letting go doesn't mean getting disconnected. Letting go may be more specific, like, can you think of one thing of telling him what to do or telling him how to do it? Or, you know, just the little things that we try to control to give us a sense of, you know, we're trying to ground ourselves in this very scary time when they're learning to drive and they, you know, they're driving, they're going off to college, they're doing things, they're exposed to a lot of things. Of course it's scary. Of course we want to hold on tighter. But gripping a steering wheel never helps improve the driver's ability.

I love that line. I'm going to hold on to that line.

Yes.

Yeah. No, that was really helpful. And I have to touch on your marriage because you told me you were married for 42 years. And, you know, I'm so impressed with that. So tell me, like, tell us your— I don't want to say secrets, like, tell us Tell us about your effective 42-year marriage. I mean, that's amazing. Mm-hmm.

Well, I do want to say, I want to make a disclaimer that 42 years is not for everyone. Right? It's not. I have no judgment. And I really hold no judgment for people who, who will have a 1-year marriage or whatever. I think we want to be real sensitive to marriage. Families can look look very, very, very different. For me, the irony of getting married very young, because I was— I look at my children and say, oh my God, I can't believe I got married at 22 years old. Like, I could not believe— I looked at my 22-year-old kids and I'm like, marriage? So anyway, that, that surprised me. But when I got married, I actually had said, promised myself, after college, I'm going to go off and learn who I am and be, you know, an individual. And of course, I did the very opposite. I got married. I actually got engaged on my graduation day. So it was, it was a beautiful thing to get married. I'm with a man that I truly, truly love. And we've grown together. And so the secret was I panicked that I, I was like, okay, now I'm inside a relationship. How am I ever going to grow? Because I didn't think that my parents— I thought the generation before got married too young. I thought I had it all figured out.

Out.

So basically, I did start with therapy nice and early. And I said, I have to figure out how to grow inside this marriage. So growing inside the marriage is to me what has made the marriage work. And I also want to make a disclaimer, it has not always been easy. People think that it's, you know, a straight line of love. And no, I can say there were times that I despised my husband, he drove me nuts, you know, And the idea, what he taught me, is that it goes along with being uncomfortable, learning to be comfortable in the uncomfortable. I just, he just sort of taught me that we can be uncomfortable with each other, we can be unhappy. It doesn't mean I have to grab the door and run. So creating a container for the marriage to have difficulties and work through them was one of the things that helped in our marriage. So there were difficult times. And by staying in it and seeing again, turning the lens back on myself, I really, really found that it was my overwhelm. It was my not taking care of myself. It was, you know, I had so much going on that his things would drive me nuts at those times. And so we worked it out about the things that were driving him nuts, the thing that drove me nuts, but I just shared with someone the other day, those those end of the day, whose day was worse wars. So we would come home and he would say, you know, he'd say, oh my God, there's not a table or a counter where I can put my stuff. Your stuff is all over the place. I have a lot of papers all over the place, or I did back then. And the thing that I noticed is he came home and complained about my papers. I'd say, you know what, I saw 15 clients today. I didn't have time to go to the bathroom. I fed the kids. I did this. And we'd get into the war of whose day was worse.

Yeah.

When I realized, wait a minute, I'm going to stop and say, hey, how was your day at work today? Then it was like there was no war. I didn't have to defend myself. And he would say, yeah, it was a hard day today. And so all of a sudden, validating each other became a key to relationship, because if you don't feel heard, nobody— and I think that's a pretty okay generalization. Nobody's gonna be okay. Validation is like our basic need. And I talk about that so much on the podcast. Um, validating our children makes them feel seen and heard and understood. And so it's the same in a marriage. If I don't feel seen and heard and understood, I'm gonna scream, I'm gonna complain, I'm gonna fight. And so that's really a second key is making sure that we're validating each other, listening to each other, not just hearing each other or whatever it is, really hearing each other, not just listening to the words. So going, going to that place. And then the third, I think, really important thing is don't take yourself too seriously. My husband and I do a very good job of laughing at ourselves. And maybe that's because we were teased pretty badly growing up. Maybe we— our outcome was because there's no more damage. We've already, we've heard it all. It's hurt. We're uncomfortable. We've been uncomfortable. And knowing how to tolerate that discomfort just gave us an ability to laugh at ourselves. And so we have a lot of, we do laugh. We do. And sometimes when I'm like, okay, I announce it. I'm like, I'm not in the mood. So please don't make fun of my, my, my short attention span. Oh, please don't make fun of, you know, I'll warn everyone if I'm not able to take a joke. But if I can take a joke, then the family can come together over all of our imperfections because they're not a problem. They're just who we are.

Wow.

Wow.

I feel like I should have been taking notes. I'm going to have to listen to that again.

You got it on recording.

Yeah, I have it on recording. It's funny because I feel like every time I'm upset, it's because I'm not feeling appreciated. So if my family, if my kids, my husband say, thank you so much, or I appreciate everything you do, or if I feel appreciated, there's like no tension.

Yes. Yes. So if the tension is there, as we said before, that's, that's letting you know, pay attention. Oh, I never said that. Maybe I have said that. Tension asks us to pay attention.

Yes.

And so if you pay attention to huh, I wonder what this is telling me, then you might say, I wanna feel appreciated. Hey everybody, I wanna have a moment where I want to say that I have a need to be appreciated in this moment.

Yes.

Yes. Right? We can ask for it. Yes.

And we have to say it 'cause they can't read our minds, right? We have to say it.

Love that.

Yeah.

They cannot read our minds. That is a problematic thinking error if we just assume that people can read our minds.

Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh, you're amazing. I knew you were going to be amazing. I knew I was going to love talking to you.

This has been great.

I mean, is there anything else you want to share? Because I've asked you so much.

No, I love where you've gone. I love what, you know, the things that we've shared and talked about. I think that by bringing in the marriage, which is not some— when I'm talking about my parenting, you know, a lot of it is focused on parenting. Itself. And as we see, relationships are relationships. And it's not, I'm going to treat my children one way and treat my spouse another way. The common denominator of relationships is respect. Yeah, right. Seeing people for who they are and showing that respect, and allowing ourselves to— and also the respect comes from someone else has different thoughts, feelings, and behaviors than I do. So I am not going to assume— here's another thing— I'm not going to assume that after 42 years, I know my husband better than he knows himself. I mean, I like to say that, but the truth is, I'm learning every day.

Yeah.

And that's what keeps our marriage— actually, that's the best part right now is even though it's been a long time, we actually do, we are still learning from each other. And so Yeah, I really, you know, it's, we still have our frustrations, but it's such a beautiful thing to be able to, and it's exciting. I actually tell them every time that we figure out something new or I figure out something new, I'm truly excited. It gets me excited. So, so yes. So looking, looking at our children with those fresh eyes, looking at our partners, our friends, whoever is in our life, our enemies, with fresh eyes gives us, just helps us feel a little bit more, um, I think stable because when we narrow our view and think we know it all, it's like standing on one foot and going through life on a very thin balance beam. But if I feel like I can open up and take a wider stance and take a wider perspective, I'm gonna probably feel better and more grounded in myself. So let's just keep opening up our point of view.

Such good advice. Such good advice. Well, tell everybody where to go find you.

Thank you. So you can find me by just Googling my name, Leslie Cohen Rubury. That's R-U-B-U-R-Y. I have a website which has lots of access to resources, videos, and I'm, that's where I am right now, really trying to up those resources for people. I wanna get it out there to as many people people. My website, my podcast is Is My Child a Monster? And it is a, it's called a therapy podcast because I interview parents who volunteer with all names changed anonymously to share their trials and tribulations in on-air therapy sessions. So yeah, I'm having sessions with people. So if you, if you, you know, find any of this interesting, then please follow, go to Is My Child a Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And you will find it. And it's been, it's been very exciting, a brand new endeavor. I love the fact that you've been at it for a long time. This is 6 months old for me now. And I'm just feeling, you know, you, you get thrown in, you learn, you learn quickly, but it's a lot to learn.

And I think it's the best title I've ever heard of a podcast.

Well, it's, it, it's meant to, again, open our eyes.

Yeah. Yes.

And to share the community that parents may feel like when I say I hate my husband, parent people think that that's a horrible thing to say. It's human. You know, it's human that we have strong feelings and doesn't mean that's my intention. Doesn't mean it's a passing fee. It is a passing feeling. I don't have to believe it and attach to it. So is my child a monster is something that gets our attention so that we can ask more questions and be more curious.

Well, and I love, love, love that you're taking the judgment out of it.

Yes, thank you.

That's— that I love that so much. And I loved my time with you today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to spend time with me.

Thank you, Rebecca. And thank you for doing what you do. I mean, again, trying to create a community of support and connection between parents. I love that you're doing that, that we're both doing that and getting resources out to people is just great.

Well, thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being here. This is Rebecca Green, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Back. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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