Episode 280: Teach Your Kids How to be the Boss of Their Brain

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Whining Fuza Podcast, and I am so excited because I get to talk to Jessica Sanarski today. Jessica, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

It's my pleasure, Rebecca.

So let me tell you a little bit about this fantastic lady. Um, she has her LPCMH, Licensed Professional Counselor of Mental Health. She is a highly sought-after therapist, speaker, and changemaker. Weaving user-friendly brain science into everything she does, Jessica ignites both passion and know-how in audiences. Extensive postgraduate training and 15+ years as a clinician and educator led her to create the resource and training platform Brave Brains. She partners with school districts and child welfare agencies around the world to unlock resilience in children and adults alike. Jessica makes social emotional learning practical, equipping parents and professionals with deeply trauma-informed tools. She is the author of the award-winning Riley the Brave series, Your Magic Backpack series, and she has Your Amazing Brain coming out in October that I can't wait to hear about. And she also shares her expertise as a contributor to magazines, blogs, and podcasts. Jessica lives in Pennsylvania with her husband and 3 busy boys and still made time to be here with me today. So thank you.

You're welcome. And if anyone is still listening after that, uh, long intro, I promise the podcast will be more exciting than that.

I love to learn about people, and I think that now that they have your amazing bio, they're like, let's hear what this this smart lady has to say. And I really like to start with what inspired you to become a counselor.

I, I knew from when I was in high school that I wanted to be a therapist, a counselor in some capacity. I didn't know the path that I would end up on. So I feel like one of those unusual people who sort of went into college knowing knowing my major and sticking with it. And that stayed the case all the way through graduate school. I knew that therapeutic relationship was meaningful to me. It had been meaningful to me as a kid. I had been in counseling and felt the benefit of that. And the empathy is strong with me. And so being able to use that for good seemed like a positive thing.

Well, that's awesome. You don't hear very often that people stick to what they wanted to do from the beginning. So that's pretty cool. Now you have a passion about brain science.

I do.

And I would love to hear about this. Why are you so passionate about this?

So I feel like I have magic beans. I feel like I have this, I have this way of understanding the brain behavior connection for both kids and adults that sort of lifts the shame and blame. So whether it's just day-to-day parenting stuff, or in the education world, you know, between teachers and students, or, or teachers and, and admin, right? Like, we are so wired for connection, um, with other humans, and we default into survival mode so quickly. And it just seems like this, you know, this— I can't think of the word— like, contradiction, right? Where we desperately need each other, and yet we're so quick to go into isolation mode or to shut down or to pick fights when really we need connection, or to tune out on social media instead of instead of reaching out to a friend and, you know, going and having coffee or, or something like that. And so I think what I have found is both personally and professionally that understanding what's going on in this, in this big system inside us, our nervous system, our brain-body connection, can really empower people to bring out the best in themselves and have compassion for other people in a unique way. So I am all about it. I am— I get so jazzed to talk about the brain.

Well, and we— and if we understand the brain, it— I mean, I'm not going to give the answer to the next question, but, um, I want to talk about how this applies to parenting because I think this really helps our parenting.

I agree, I agree. So on so many levels, when we think about how brains develop and the fact that brains are not fully mature until around age 25, which I—

are you sure that my brain is mature?

Supposedly, that's what the science says, but you know, we can, we can always grow. So that's the thing, like, even a, even a fully myelinated brain, even, even a brain that has all its connections, can still grow and change. And I think that's the other— that's another reason I'm passionate about this, this science getting out there in helpful ways, is that there's hope. Like, We can change our brains even as adults. And as parents, it helps to understand that the— our, our kiddos are growing their brains just like their bodies are growing. Their brains are growing. And so, you know, I, I joke sometimes that I feel like car insurance companies figured out that, that brains don't mature until 25 long before neuroscientists did. Wow, that's so right. So because of behavior, because the brain is responsible for all human behavior. And so we see the data that impulsivity is higher and decision-making skills are poorer. And right, like all of these pieces play out. And yet it's hard for us to hold as parents. Like, you know, my 2-year-old is throwing a tantrum and it looks like she's choosing to do this. Or my 6-year-old is whiny after school and it seems like a volitional choice. When really it's a growing brain. That doesn't mean permissive parenting. That doesn't mean kids just have no— like we set no boundaries or we just let kids, you know, have everything they want or whatever. It means that we can have some compassion for where this behavior is coming from and work to build connections in the brain instead of just punishing the behavior we don't want to see.

No, that's so good. So then me as a parent, then how can I show up differently knowing this? Now how can I act differently?

So let's back up one step because I think there's a piece that, that will help us with how we show up differently. Um, so if it's okay, well, I want to explain one piece of just like the super basics of the brain.

Yes, please.

That we eat— that we have two modes. We are either in our upstairs brain. So Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson, in their book The Whole Brain Child, they talk about this upstairs and downstairs brain. Highly recommend the book. I'll get you the link for the show notes. But one of the things that— one of the reasons I think that just this simple understanding of upstairs and downstairs is so helpful is that that upstairs brain is responsible for, you know, our healthy decision-making, thinking things through, being compassionate, empathic, being curious, being playful, right? Like our upstairs brain does all of these planning and important sort of adulting things and certainly things that we want our kids to continue to develop. It's our think before acting team in our brain, right? Like, it helps us. It is the slower path, but richer, fuller life when we can use that team, right? So our downstairs brain is our act without thinking part of our brain. It's the brainstem. It's the limbic system for those who want to get a little nerdy about it, right? It's the feeling center. It's also it, it serves really good purposes, like making our heartbeat and, and making sure we breathe. And, you know, if we didn't have parts of our brain that were on autopilot, life would be really, really hard. Yeah. Yeah. So each of these teams serves a purpose, but that downstairs brain, well, first of all, it's the team that's online at birth. Babies can't think things through, right? They just have needs. They're just a bundle of needs. Then we meet the need and meet the need and meet the need and build trust and repair and build trust and repair. And that is part of how that staircase of the brain gets built to where the downstairs and upstairs can talk to each other. And that's what we want to see. So as parents, what this means is when we see behavior in our kiddos that we don't love, it's often coming from that downstairs brain. When, when you asked about like the starting place, though, I think for us as parents, knowing that is helpful. But really, the behavior we don't love to see in ourselves is often coming from that downstairs brain too, because it's normal that we flip into acting without thinking, that we flip into, you know, the downstairs brain really loves power and control. So we flip into wanting to control a behavior or, or yelling or, you know, whatever it is that, that sort of feels like a release of that downstairs brain energy that's not actually constructive in helping our kiddo learn what they need to learn. Right. So I feel like that understanding is important just in how we see our kids' behavior. But really, that first step, I mean, it stinks. I feel like I want to say, you're welcome, I'm sorry to parents who are listening, because it's hard, right? We don't want one more thing. The Taylor Swift song is running through my head, like, it's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me. Um, it really does start with us being the boss of our brains, because for our kids to develop a strong staircase of the brain, for them to develop that curious, compassionate upstairs brain, they need lots and lots and lots of help from your upstairs brain. And that's hard.

It's really hard. And I have this joke that I tell people that— I mean, it's not really a joke, it's sad— um, that we say to our kids as we're yelling, 'Stop yelling.' Like, we yell, we yell at our kids and we say— and we're yelling— 'Stop yelling.' How is that? I mean, I have— hey, I'm guilty— I've made it worse. It's like, is my action step about to make the situation worse or better?

Yeah, I think that's spot on. Like, we can we can escalate with them, or we can bring our ability to regulate. And that doesn't always mean being calm, right? So sometimes it means, whoa, things look really heated. Let's take a break. Let's go out for a walk. Let's do— right? Like, let's discharge that energy. I joke sometimes when I'm talking with— well, with any group of adults that I think particularly in therapeutic settings, we're often trained to like, well, let's you know, let's just think about this. Let's calm down. Right? First of all, being told to calm down has never in the history of the universe ever, ever calmed anyone down. No. Second of all, when you're mad and someone comes at you with this low tone of voice and whatever, you're like, you don't get it. Like, this is awful. My sister just did this. My brother was whatever. Or I, you know, like, they need to know we feel with them, and then they're more likely to hear what we have to say. Right. We have to sort of join them, not in being like, yeah, your sister's a jerk. It's not saying we agree with their downstairs brain assessment of the situation, but we can have compassion for how big it feels. Yes. And then help them discharge that energy a little bit and find their, find their way back to that upstairs brain.

Okay. So we're in the downstairs brain.

Yeah.

Things are not going well. And then you have methods that we need to learn to help them self-regulate.

Yes.

So can you give us some self-regulation guidance?

Sure. So we can go a number of directions here. So I, um, part of why I wrote Riley the Brave's Sensational Senses is I feel like, um, the senses are misunderstood. So we have our 5 basic senses that, that get talked about all the time. We learn in preschool, but then we have these 3 hidden senses and proprioception in particular. So proprioception is a hidden sense that comes from receptors in your muscles and joints. So we won't— I won't go into all the hidden senses, but understanding that our, our bodies, especially our kids' bodies, need lots of what's called proprioceptive input. It needs— our bodies need lots of squishing, squeezing, pushing, pulling, banging, crashing, jumping, you know, all of those things that we sort of think of in childhood, or even if you go back to infancy, like swaddling, padding, bouncing, right? All of these things are feeding that hidden sense. So as we have moved more and more into this digital age where kids are sitting in front of screens or sitting in general a lot more than maybe they used to working on the farm or doing, you know, a lot more physical labor even from young ages or a lot more free play even, as we get more sedentary, that hidden sense, that proprioceptive sense, is not getting the input that it needs. So as bizarre as it sounds, one of my go-to regulation strategies is movement. That if we can get the body moving, that's a way to wake up that upstairs brain. So not in a punitive way, not like drop and give me 20.

Oh, I like that.

Not that I haven't done that. I have had it. I have been like, all right, you've got too much energy. Like, let's do push-ups. Like, we got to do something. But it's going to go better if we can be playful and relational about it and build it into the day. So if things are going sideways, get outside. Go shoot hoops. Like, play a game where— one of my favorites when my kids were younger is have them roll you across the room. And, you know, if you want, you can then roll them back across the room. Like, you can just—

awesome, right?

You get— or if you're just really tired, you know, just have kid number 1 and kid number 2 roll you back and forth across the room, right? Like, you don't have to do anything, right? And you get this relational, playful, big muscle movement that is deeply regulating. So often before we get to any cognitive strategies, and I'll share some of those as well, but before we're, before we're trying to help our kids think their way to the upstairs brain, often, especially for those younger kiddos, we have to help them physically move their bodies because that's gonna be our, our fastest way to get unstuck, right? And it has the added benefit of discharging some of that energy. I mean, you know how it is when you're super mad Like, it's gotta go somewhere. It's gonna come out your mouth, or it's gonna be you're like angry cleaning, or you're, you know, you need to go for a walk.

Well, and I'm trying to play this out. So my daughter's really mad and I'm trying to stay calm and not get mad with her. Go ahead.

I have a, a great idea for you in that moment. Right?

Okay.

Your daughter's really mad.

Yes.

You're trying not to get mad. Yes. So one of my favorite go-to strategies when I know I need to stay— like, I'm feeling my lid flipping, I'm feeling my downstairs brain coming on. Hang with me, folks, is to sing. If you want to yell, sing instead. So the song that often comes out is something like, I've already answered that question and the answer hasn't changed and you're mad and that's okay. Right? You don't have to have a great voice. It doesn't matter. Right. And it's another opportunity to build some movement in. So if they're kind of like not batting at you like they're hitting you, but like they're flopping, they're like, you know, pushing on your leg, right? Like the things our kids do.

This is why they get floppy.

Yes.

This is why they get floppy.

It's all making sense.

It's making sense to me.

Yes. So that's a moment that you can then like spin them around a little bit and push and pull a little bit. You're staying in your upstairs brain because that little bit of playful singing helps, helps your upstairs brain stay online. And I guarantee you, your kiddo is gonna hear you better because there's a little surprise in that. There's a little playfulness in that. Than they will if you yell.

Yeah.

Right? And you don't have to repair afterwards because it's not your downstairs brain reacting.

That is great. I never ever thought you were gonna say that. I was like in the moment picturing myself. And the funny thing is when I make her laugh and smile, I mean, it just totally goes in a better direction.

It does. It takes, so, So here's where I have a lot of compassion for parents in this, because I, I, I know it's so— it can be so hard to muster that little bit of upstairs brain energy ourselves, even though we know it goes better, right? So I can get in a power struggle with my son about, you know, getting his jammies on or whatever, or we can be a little playful about it and giggle, and I can chase him up the stairs, or, right? And it goes so much better. But when our downstairs brain is loud, when we are stressed from work, or, you know, exactly right. And so that's where I think that's another reason that I love understanding the brain, because I think for parents it helps them have— it helps us have some self-compassion that this feels hard because it is hard. And we all want what's best for our kids. So, you know, even though, even though it takes that little bit of extra energy to muster some playfulness or to, or to even, you know, to even just pause ourselves and be like, you know, I feel my downstairs brain getting loud. I don't want to yell at you guys. So I'm going to take a breather. I'm just gonna— I don't wanna flip my lid. I'm gonna— I'm gonna take a minute, right?

Yeah. I love them seeing us do that and tell them what we're doing. Yes. And I love the concept of teaching my kids the upstairs and the downstairs brain, cuz that's easy for all of them to understand. That's really good.

And that's what I've seen across the ages. Like little kids can, can get this, you know? Um, and then it's, it's a concept you can build on over the years to where even middle and high schoolers understand this concept. And that's really the purpose of my new book, Your Amazing Brain, is to bring it to in full color comic style illustrations. Like, this is what's going on inside of us, and you can be the boss of your brain, right? Like, we all have prickly porcupine moments, or we all have tiger moments or turtle moments when we shut down. And that's not the end of the story, right? So that is so powerful.

So be the boss of your brain. That is a huge line because sometimes we feel like it's controlling us and we're not in charge.

Yes. And it makes sense that it feels like that because we have a, we have an act without thinking part of our brain. There's just too much information coming in. The brain has to prioritize. And so understanding that helps us notice, helps us take some of the next steps for becoming the boss of our brain. So we got to get the body involved and move. We want to teach kids about their brain. And then my little like ABCs of self-regulation is a quick pause. So that might be breathing, that might be something sensory, that might be a drink of water, that might be, right, like Whatever it is, take a quick pause. Be curious. So this, this is true for us as grownups too, and we can model it even as we teach our kids. Like, oh, I think, I think my lid is flipping because I asked you guys to clean up and the house is a disaster and you're, you're on your devices instead of doing what I asked you to do. So as I'm being curious with myself, I'm feeling really frustrated and like you're not hearing me. And maybe a little taken, taken advantage of because I said you could do screens after you cleaned up and you didn't clean up. Right. So my being curious helps my, my taking a quick pause and being curious helps me slow down enough that I don't just walk in and be like, what the heck, Doc? Yeah. Because then C, our ABC, is to choose wisely. So choose your next step. My downstairs brain wants to take away electronics for a week, right? Do they really learn the, the, to order their steps and plan and think things through just by me taking away electronics for a week? Not really, right? It makes my downstairs brain feel better cuz I get power and control in the situation.

Yes.

But if I'm gonna choose wisely, I'm gonna slow down for a second and say, hey guys, pause. Let's, uh, let's pause what we're doing here and look around. What do you notice? Right? So I'm gonna engage their upstairs brains. Oh geez, the pizza box is there and this is there. So I, my choosing wisely is to slow down and help them build their staircase of the brain. So we remember when I said no electronics until, you know, the kitchen was cleaned up? Yes. Okay. So what do you notice as you look around as opposed to just dictating the things that need to happen? Okay, great. Then maybe we do again, we're exercising that upstairs brain. Maybe we make a little list together. Okay. Who's doing what? I've got 3 boys, different ages, different skill sets. Who's, who's doing what? Let's figure it out. And then they go and do those things and maybe we do a little extra just to keep building that skill because they didn't do it the first time, right? So we're just going to keep building that skill, but I'm not going to do it in a punitive way. I'm going to be like, okay, and let's also sweep and let's also do this. Okay, okay. Now you can go back to what you were doing and we're done at 6 or whatever it is. It takes more effort. But it builds their brain. I think that, and, and for all of us as parents, like, that's what we want. We want them to have the skills to be adults. We want them to, to grow their feeling and dealing and their planning and their thinking it through skills. And taking away electronics for a week doesn't do that. No.

And I, and I love that whole scenario that you just described. And what I'm sitting here thinking is Sometimes it goes like that. And, and I think it's because, you know, I'm walking the walk. I have 3 kids, you have 3 kids. We're both walking the walk. So I'm trying to practice everything that I preach, and I'm trying to do it with my kids. And sometimes it goes really well and I'm proud of myself, and sometimes it goes south and I'm like, ugh. And I think that for everybody listening, I want them to know that It's taking so much practice and I'm still screwing up.

Yeah, right. I'm being so intentional about this. I talk about this, I write about it, I teach about it all day long. And of course, you know, I get home and that's when I have the least upstairs brain power left.

Yeah.

To navigate all of this with my kiddos. It really, you know, I, I just have so much compassion for what a monumental task parenting is in the best of circumstances with a partner, you know, with adequate financial resources, with, with, with. So if you're listening and you're like, geez, I'm failing my kids, first of all, that's a downstairs brain thought. So we'll just notice that and have a little compassion for how much you care about your kids and how much you want to do right by them. You're listening to this podcast right now trying to learn something new. And so just give your downstairs brain a big hug, even as those tiger swipes maybe come at you instead of coming at somebody else, that, that, that's normal. And, and it doesn't— like, messing up doesn't mean that you are a failure. Like, making a mistake doesn't mean that you are a mistake. That is another thing that I find beautiful about understanding brain science is repairing a relationship is a powerful connector. So, so brain development is all about connections, both connections in the brain and connections between, like, between parent and child. And you strengthen your connection with your child when you authentically take responsibility for your actions. And try to do better. And that's— that's absolutely a part of the parenting process for all of us. Um, and even though maybe it wasn't something that you experienced growing up— so I know lots of the adults that I talk with never ever ever had an adult in their life say I'm sorry. So if you're, if you're listening right now and you're like, you know, apologize to my kid, like, no, I lose my power. I'm not, you know, I need to be the authority, whatever it is. You are holding your power, um, in a beautiful way when you say, I flipped my lid, my tiger came out at you, and, and that's my bad. I'm working on it. I know you're working on it. We're in this together. Not, I flipped my lid, but if you had cleaned up like I asked you to, then I wouldn't have, you know. And, and I will say I have definitely had to like stop and rewind in the middle of apologizing to one of my boys. Like there's one instance I'm thinking of in particular where I was like, I thought I had my lid back on. I thought I was regulated enough to go in for the, the repair. I did not. So I had to be like, what's it? So I started by saying, like, I'm sorry, whatever happened, you know, when you blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, wait, wait, can I try that again? I'm sorry. And then just stop talking.

There's no, but if you— well, and sometimes I love what you're saying because sometimes I think I'm in a really calm, resourceful spot and all of the feelings start bubbling and my kids hear me go, Seth, and I stop TV. My husband did. And I'm like, okay, I'm out.

You're in. Yes. Well, and what I love that you're doing, like, you're asking for support from another upstairs brain. Right? So our brains tap out. Like, we hit overload. Our kids' brains hit overload. And so if your kid is already melting down and you're like, go unload the dishwasher, And they're already at explosion point. It's the same as if your boss said, you know, you are already buried and feeling behind on all your deadlines and your boss is like, and I need this by the end of the day.

Well, exactly.

So let's slow down. Let's make a plan. Let's pull, you know, we need to borrow even as adults, we need to borrow upstairs brain power from other adults. It's just how we are as humans, and that's okay.

Exactly. And we can only take so much. Yes. So I think that everything that you are describing is going to really help us at home. And my question is, as a parent, then how do we take what we know works for our kid or what we think we need to communicate, and how do we then give that to others in their lives, like teachers and other caregivers? How do, how do we do that?

Great question. So I, my business would run better if I only spoke to one audience, but exactly what you're talking about is what I have seen play out in my, in my career, certainly. And so that's part of why I'm committed to really embracing all of the adults around the child. So if you go to, um, what do you go to, jessicasanarski.com/resources, there are two downloads there. One's a teacher guide, one's a school counselor guide that just help you bring this, this concept into the school. They're free to download. You can grab them. There's also a resource library there as well that's free. I have also really worked hard to put these things in, in user-friendly picture book format. And so I have had, I have heard from lots of parents who will share, you know, Riley the Brave with a grandparent, or will share Sensational Senses, Riley the Brave Sensational Senses, with the babysitter so they understand what's going on with this, or will bring, um, it will bring a book to an IEP meeting or something like that to say like, so this is kind of what's happening, because it depersonalizes it a little bit. It's not saying like, hey teacher, you're doing it wrong. It's saying, this is what I'm under— this is what I'm learning about the brain and body. This is what I'm learning about my neurodivergent kid or about my, my kids or just about my, you know, how we process emotion. And this seems to work well for my kiddo. So it's not that you're doing it wrong. It's just that, man, this really seems to help them. So any time that we can be on the same team with people and offer support as opposed to like Not that you're trying to tell them they're doing it wrong, but I think it can so easily, you know what I mean? So yes, it's— there's a tone issue to it. And so that's part of why like email can be challenging because the tone doesn't come across right. So, um, so anytime you can offer support and, and do it in a like, we're in this together and this is what I'm learning and has been really helpful to me, those kinds of things tend to, tend to make a big difference.

I love how you put that. I, I think parents can understandably go in very frustrated, of course, and I try very delicately to talk to them about how that's probably going to be ineffective to walk in that way, right?

Right. It's a brain in protection mode, right? So yes, parents naturally want to protect their baby That's good. Like, notice that in yourself and know that that's a good and understandable emotion and brain state, and you can be the boss of your brain. So get that upstairs brain online and team going together.

So, so tell everyone where they can find your books and you.

Yes. So your best place to go to get all kinds of resources and books and supports is JessicaSinarski.com. It's S-I-N-A-R-S-K-I dot com. And you can also find all my books on Amazon or Bookshop.org, or they're available wherever books are sold. Depending on when this podcast airs, there's even like, well, every time I launch a book, there's a preorder bonus and stuff like that. So get on the mailing list, check out the blog, Get some books. It's just a great way to help bring these concepts to life in a playful, colorful way for your kids.

Well, thank you so much. I learned— I knew I was going to learn from you. I learned a lot. I'm sure everybody listening learned a lot, and I just appreciate your time and your expertise today.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Rebecca.

This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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